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What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-01 by Eric Neilsen

While there continued to be some discussion about what a Giclee print is and
how the term came into being, below is a response that I received from Jack
Duganne.  We can agree that we make them based Jack’s intent as stated
below. As for all the other marketing pushes, etc this should help anyone
feel fine in making a coffee table book and calling the Giclee prints.
Harold was at Photokina when this topic came up. He may be getting back to
us. 

 

 

Hi Eric,

 

I coined the term Giclée back in 1989 and used it to describe a print for an
artist who was having her first show of ink jet prints done on an IRIS
printer.  She had asked for a term and I developed the word based upon the
French word for "nozzle", which is gicleur.  I 'created'  that word because
I thought that it should apply not only to just the IRIS prints, but also to
other prints done on other printers in the future of digital printmaking.  I
assumed that all printers would have to incorporate a nozzle in the printing
process for transferring the ink to the paper or substrate.  The word giclée
technically means "that which is sprayed by a nozzle".  I created the term
to be used specifically to separate fine art digital prints (or prints
determined to be fine art by the artist in that they intended to sign them)
from non-art digital prints.  That is much the way the word "serigraph" is
used to separate commercial non-art silk screen prints from those intended
to be art by the artists themselves.

 

Beyond that, there was no other intention or agenda offered nor claimed.
Copyright was not possible because it was a new generic term and as such was
available for all to use and employ.  It created a fire storm of
interpretation and meaning by others.  It is embedded in the global culture
and economy at this point and all other discussion is moot.  For better or
worse, it was a word and nothing more.  It had a beginning in the simple
attempt to describe what I thought might be a contribution to the great
lexicon  of printmaking nomenclature.  I have never deviated from that
original purpose.

 

Thanks,

 

Jack Duganne

 

...............................................................
Jack Duganne - Duganne Ateliers
Fine Art Digital Printmaking

 

 

 

 

Eric

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-02 by AnnMarie Tornabene

Thank you for posting that and what a chuckle I got. I am sure there are many printing companies that feel foolish knowing that information :D

AnnMarie Tornabene
www.annmarietornabene.net

Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-05 by photog0946

Well AnnMarie, let me say that I share your "chuckle". However, I also
have to admit that I am one of those printers who has ALWAYS felt
somewhat "foolish" about using the "G" word in describing the type of
work I do to a potential customer. For a long time I refrained from
using the Giclée term in my advertising and in conversation with those
were seeking a printer who would offer the TLC and attention their
work so richly deserved. Recently however, and with much thought and
consideration, I find myself in the rather precarious position of
having to oblige those who feel that without the WORD attached to the
product, it simply isn't a Fine Art Print worthy of their signature.
So, when the dust settles, it all comes down to selling what the
customer wants to buy. The fact that I use ONLY archival pigment inks
and print on ONLY archival Fine Art Papers and that I DO take the time
and care necessary to reproduce their work to their standards of
excellence, really doesn't mean much at all if they can't call it a
Giclée Print. And, if I don't also play the game, I risk losing a
potential customer. As Jack put it, it IS just a word. A word with no
inherent purpose except to describe a mechanical procedure involved in
the production of an inkjet Fine Art Print. 

So, with tongue in cheek, while biting my lip, crossing my fingers
behind my back while balancing on one leg, and with a wink and a
twinkle in my eye, I will, YES, I WILL call a spade a spade, AND an
inkjet Fine Art Print a Giclée. Sorry if I have dashed your faith in
mankind and possibly even in those of us who profess to really care
about your images and how they are reproduced, but that was never my
intention. When it comes to the "G" word I'll use my favorite phrase,
"IT IS WHAT IT IS!"

Good night AnnMarie, wherever you are :>)
Gary




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, AnnMarie
Tornabene <faeofavalon@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for posting that and what a chuckle I got. I am sure there
are many printing companies that feel foolish knowing that information :D
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> AnnMarie Tornabene
> www.annmarietornabene.net
>

Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-06 by Jane Waters

I really enjoyed these posts, Gary. A "Giclée" print seems to carry so
much cache, and yet I don't ever use the word, but my photos ARE
inkjet prints (of course.... they're digital.... how ELSE would they
be printed??). Therefore, I suppose they *should* be classified as
giclée's. who cares. they sell, I'm happy.

the curious question I get more and more often these days is "is this
an original?" - what else would it be. Can you call an inkjet print an
"original"? In the true sense, only the first print should be stated
as being "original" - which takes us back to numbering prints in
series. What a pain in the neck that is. I tried doing numbered series
for awhile - they didn't sell any better than the not numbered pieces.
So, I stopped. it's a curious game, this selling of photography. 

I suspect, now that I've gone from glossy prints to matte finish
prints, that I will start calling them "giclée" just to see what
happens <wink>. The world of art buyers is so seemingly pretentious,
when in reality, they are just clueless people who really love a print
but want a REASON to buy it. (perceived value).

thanks for this.
Jane

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "photog0946"
<gnickzone@...> wrote:
>
> Well AnnMarie, let me say that I share your "chuckle". However, I also
> have to admit that I am one of those printers who has ALWAYS felt
> somewhat "foolish" about using the "G" word in describing the type of
> work I do to a potential customer. For a long time I refrained from
> using the Giclée term in my advertising and in conversation with those
> were seeking a printer who would offer the TLC and attention their
> work so richly deserved. Recently however, and with much thought and
> consideration, I find myself in the rather precarious position of
> having to oblige those who feel that without the WORD attached to the
> product, it simply isn't a Fine Art Print worthy of their signature.
> So, when the dust settles, it all comes down to selling what the
> customer wants to buy. The fact that I use ONLY archival pigment inks
> and print on ONLY archival Fine Art Papers and that I DO take the time
> and care necessary to reproduce their work to their standards of
> excellence, really doesn't mean much at all if they can't call it a
> Giclée Print. And, if I don't also play the game, I risk losing a
> potential customer. As Jack put it, it IS just a word. A word with no
> inherent purpose except to describe a mechanical procedure involved in
> the production of an inkjet Fine Art Print. 
> 
> So, with tongue in cheek, while biting my lip, crossing my fingers
> behind my back while balancing on one leg, and with a wink and a
> twinkle in my eye, I will, YES, I WILL call a spade a spade, AND an
> inkjet Fine Art Print a Giclée. Sorry if I have dashed your faith in
> mankind and possibly even in those of us who profess to really care
> about your images and how they are reproduced, but that was never my
> intention. When it comes to the "G" word I'll use my favorite phrase,
> "IT IS WHAT IT IS!"
> 
> Good night AnnMarie, wherever you are :>)
> Gary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, AnnMarie
> Tornabene <faeofavalon@> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for posting that and what a chuckle I got. I am sure there
> are many printing companies that feel foolish knowing that
information :D
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 
> > AnnMarie Tornabene
> > www.annmarietornabene.net
> >
>

Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-06 by viewcam43

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Waters" 
<janielaurel@...> wrote:
>
> I really enjoyed these posts, Gary. A "Giclée" print seems to carry 
so
> much cache, and yet I don't ever use the word, but my photos ARE
> inkjet prints (of course.... they're digital.... how ELSE would they
> be printed??). Therefore, I suppose they *should* be classified as
> giclée's. who cares. they sell, I'm happy.
> 
> the curious question I get more and more often these days is "is 
this
> an original?" - what else would it be. Can you call an inkjet print 
an
> "original"? In the true sense, only the first print should be stated
> as being "original" - which takes us back to numbering prints in
> series. What a pain in the neck that is. I tried doing numbered 
series
> for awhile - they didn't sell any better than the not numbered 
pieces.
> So, I stopped. it's a curious game, this selling of photography. 
> 
> I suspect, now that I've gone from glossy prints to matte finish
> prints, that I will start calling them "giclée" just to see what
> happens <wink>. The world of art buyers is so seemingly pretentious,
> when in reality, they are just clueless people who really love a 
print
> but want a REASON to buy it. (perceived value).
> 
> thanks for this.
> Jane
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "photog0946"
> <gnickzone@> wrote:
> >
> > Well AnnMarie, let me say that I share your "chuckle". However, I 
also
> > have to admit that I am one of those printers who has ALWAYS felt
> > somewhat "foolish" about using the "G" word in describing the 
type of
> > work I do to a potential customer. For a long time I refrained 
from
> > using the Giclée term in my advertising and in conversation with 
those
> > were seeking a printer who would offer the TLC and attention their
> > work so richly deserved. Recently however, and with much thought 
and
> > consideration, I find myself in the rather precarious position of
> > having to oblige those who feel that without the WORD attached to 
the
> > product, it simply isn't a Fine Art Print worthy of their 
signature.
> > So, when the dust settles, it all comes down to selling what the
> > customer wants to buy. The fact that I use ONLY archival pigment 
inks
> > and print on ONLY archival Fine Art Papers and that I DO take the 
time
> > and care necessary to reproduce their work to their standards of
> > excellence, really doesn't mean much at all if they can't call it 
a
> > Giclée Print. And, if I don't also play the game, I risk losing a
> > potential customer. As Jack put it, it IS just a word. A word 
with no
> > inherent purpose except to describe a mechanical procedure 
involved in
> > the production of an inkjet Fine Art Print. 
> > 
> > So, with tongue in cheek, while biting my lip, crossing my fingers
> > behind my back while balancing on one leg, and with a wink and a
> > twinkle in my eye, I will, YES, I WILL call a spade a spade, AND 
an
> > inkjet Fine Art Print a Giclée. Sorry if I have dashed your faith 
in
> > mankind and possibly even in those of us who profess to really 
care
> > about your images and how they are reproduced, but that was never 
my
> > intention. When it comes to the "G" word I'll use my favorite 
phrase,
> > "IT IS WHAT IT IS!"
> > 
> > Good night AnnMarie, wherever you are :>)
> > Gary
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, AnnMarie
> > Tornabene <faeofavalon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for posting that and what a chuckle I got. I am sure 
there
> > are many printing companies that feel foolish knowing that
> information :D
> > > 
> > > AnnMarie Tornabene
> > > www.annmarietornabene.net
> > >
> >
>When I was younger (a very long time ago) a Giclee print was a top 
quality screen print. If that is so then it only applies to the 
quality of the print and not the way it was printed.

Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-06 by Andrew Darlow

Hi Jane, Gary and AnneMarie:

When I was making my rounds for the folowing report at the AIPAD show  
in NYC:
http://tinyurl.com/6ausbb

I don't think I saw the work Giclee anywhere, but I did see:

Color Inkjet Print, Pigment Print, Archival Pigment Print, and Epson  
UltraChrome Print.

Just some observations from a very high profile photo art show.

I have used the terms: "pigment ink print" or "pigmented inkjet  
print" in the past for my work.

The issue of "original" is an interesting one. I would ask the person  
what original means to them. An original painting or illustration is  
easy to understand, but an original photo? A Polaroid is probably as  
original a print as I've seen. You can offer to sell your digital  
camera file or negative for thousands or millions I suppose : )

All the best,

Andrew
---------------------------------------------------
Andrew Darlow
Editor, The Imaging Buffet
http://www.imagingbuffet.com
Author, 301 Inkjet Tips and Techniques:
An Essential Printing Resource for Photographers - http:// 
www.inkjettips.com



On Oct 6, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Jane Waters wrote:

> I really enjoyed these posts, Gary. A "Giclée" print seems to carry so
> much cache, and yet I don't ever use the word, but my photos ARE
> inkjet prints (of course.... they're digital.... how ELSE would they
> be printed??). Therefore, I suppose they *should* be classified as
> giclée's. who cares. they sell, I'm happy.
>
> -snip-
>
> I suspect, now that I've gone from glossy prints to matte finish
> prints, that I will start calling them "giclée" just to see what
> happens <wink>. The world of art buyers is so seemingly pretentious,
> when in reality, they are just clueless people who really love a print
> but want a REASON to buy it. (perceived value).
>
> thanks for this.
> Jane
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "photog0946"
> <gnickzone@...> wrote:
> >
> >-snip-
> >
> > So, with tongue in cheek, while biting my lip, crossing my fingers
> > behind my back while balancing on one leg, and with a wink and a
> > twinkle in my eye, I will, YES, I WILL call a spade a spade, AND an
> > inkjet Fine Art Print a Giclée. Sorry if I have dashed your faith in
> > mankind and possibly even in those of us who profess to really care
> > about your images and how they are reproduced, but that was never my
> > intention. When it comes to the "G" word I'll use my favorite  
> phrase,
> > "IT IS WHAT IT IS!"
> >
> > Good night AnnMarie, wherever you are :>)
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, AnnMarie
> > Tornabene <faeofavalon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for posting that and what a chuckle I got. I am sure  
> there
> > are many printing companies that feel foolish knowing that
> information :D
> > >
> > > AnnMarie Tornabene
> > > www.annmarietornabene.net
> > >
> >
>
>
> 
> Messages in this topic (4)Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
> Messages | Polls






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-07 by Clayton Jones

Hello Jane,

>...but my photos ARE inkjet prints (of course...Therefore, I suppose 
>they *should* be classified as giclée's. 

I think of a giclee as being a copy of an original art work.  The
paint artists in the west coast branch of my family had "giclees" made
of their watercolor paintings.  The originals of course sold for far
more than the copies.  According to them, the term is widely used in
that context (being a copy of an original) among graphic artists and
their galleries and retail outlets.


>the curious question I get more and more often these days is "is 
>this an original?" - what else would it be. Can you call an inkjet 
>print an "original"? 

Yes, IMO.  A print is the result of a lot of time, effort and artistic
judgements and bears little resemblance to the original source (neg or
digicam file).  It certainly isn't a copy of the original (a copy of
an original neg would look just like the original, a negative).  Each
print is made individually with great care and, even with digital
printing, can be slightly different, especially if made at different
times using different paper/ink production batches (or especially
using different paper and/or ink).  As my photoshop skills have
improved over the years I have in several cases gone back and altered
a digi file to improve it, with the result that later prints look
different than earlier ones.  Ansel also changed his treatment of an
image over time.  Look at how many different versions of his
"Moonrise" are out there.  

I consider each print to be an original work of art, to which I place
my signature.  To me our ink prints are closely akin to photogravure,
an early form of photographic ink print.  These were considered works
of art in their own right by Alfred Steiglitz, a pioneer in the fight
for acceptance of photography as art in the early 1900s.  The point
is, photographs have already been established as works of art, and ink
prints were right in there with emulsion prints during that time.  We
don't need to fight that battle all over again.  The term "original"
(as opposed to "copy") is appropriate for painting but irrelevant for
photography.

As for "giclee", I would never use the term for my prints because it
implies a copy, and also because it has pretty much been the exclusive
domain of painters.  It has not been associated with photography and
it seems highly pretentious.  I'm saddened to see it creeping in, it
seems so inappropriate and un-photographic.  

A print isn't a giclee because it's made with ink.  It's a giclee
because it's a copy of another finished work of art.  If you made only
one single "original" print from a neg or digi file (and never used it
again), and then photographed that print and made copies using the
secondary image, then they could legitimately be called giclees.



>- which takes us back to numbering prints in series. What a pain in
>the neck that is. I tried doing numbered series for awhile - they 
>didn't sell any better than the not numbered pieces.

I number my prints but not as part of limited editions.  Every print
gets a number simply as a unique identifier.  Each image has it's
prints numbered, beginning with #1, regardless of size or any other
difference.  There is no significance to the numbers (unless owners of
the prints attach some significance - maybe if I'm famous some day
print owners will brag about having an early version and think it is
worth more - Ha!).

I keep a database of my work, and the print number serves as a very
handy unique identifier.  I sell prints on line and through a local
gift shop.  My consignment report lists each print by title and number
("Pillar" #11).  When they sell a print they record the sale and pay
me for "Pillar" #11.  I look up that print in the database and mark it
as sold.  The gift shop people like it because it makes their
inventory very precise.  I don't know if it makes any difference in
sales, I doubt it.  I've met some of the customers, plus my web site
sales, and nobody has ever asked me about the numbers.  They are
marked very discretely down in the corner.  Some other possible
advantages could be a list of property for insurance purposes or a
police report for theft, identification and recovery.  For historic
purposes, someone doing research could determine (if the database is
available) when a particular print was made and who it was originally
sold to.

I hope this is good food for thought.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-07 by Dana H. Myers

Clayton Jones wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello Jane,
> 
>  >...but my photos ARE inkjet prints (of course...Therefore, I suppose
>  >they *should* be classified as gicl\ufffde's.
> 
> I think of a giclee as being a copy of an original art work.

You might think of it that way, but it doesn't seem
like others commonly share that view from what I've
seen.

Dana

Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-07 by Jane Waters

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote (in response to my question about "what is an original
in a digital world"):
> >the curious question I get more and more often these days is "is 
> >this an original?" - what else would it be. Can you call an inkjet 
> >print an "original"? 
> 
> Yes, IMO.  A print is the result of a lot of time, effort and artistic
> judgements and bears little resemblance to the original source (neg or
> digicam file).  It certainly isn't a copy of the original (a copy of
> an original neg would look just like the original, a negative).  Each
> print is made individually with great care and, even with digital
> printing, can be slightly different, especially if made at different
> times using different paper/ink production batches (or especially
> using different paper and/or ink).  As my photoshop skills have
> improved over the years I have in several cases gone back and altered
> a digi file to improve it, with the result that later prints look
> different than earlier ones.  Ansel also changed his treatment of an
> image over time.  Look at how many different versions of his
> "Moonrise" are out there.  
> 
> I consider each print to be an original work of art, to which I place
> my signature.  To me our ink prints are closely akin to photogravure,
> an early form of photographic ink print.  These were considered works
> of art in their own right by Alfred Steiglitz, a pioneer in the fight
> for acceptance of photography as art in the early 1900s.  The point
> is, photographs have already been established as works of art, and ink
> prints were right in there with emulsion prints during that time.  We
> don't need to fight that battle all over again.  The term "original"
> (as opposed to "copy") is appropriate for painting but irrelevant for
> photography.

Clayton,
thank you for your insights. Excellent as always. I DO consider every
print an original. And I state it as such at every show. I am now
going back to adding a signature to every photo, thus very clearly
stating that it is MINE and is of my own creation. The people I talk
to at shows these days are indeed looking for something with a higher
perceived value. Numbering works, as does signature. I keep a database
of what I sell, but I have not numbered "prints" for years. 

Every time I print a photo it's different. It changes with time of
year, time of day, ink, the current mind-set of the printer, the type
of paper. Therefore, it's logical to say that every print is an
original. I try, however, to stay as close to my original shot as
possible, and not fall victim to the incessant urge to add a full moon
here, a touch of clouds there...; Ansel Adams made his name by what he
produced in the lab, not necessarily by the content of his photos. He
WAS a master at framing shots, a technician of the highest level when
it came to framing. But, his true genius showed up in the
lab/development process. anyone who has seen prints from his original
plates/negatives can see that, and yes, his prints changed over time.
Our individual perception of what our original intent was in a photo
changes over time; the lab/photoshop allows us to make adjustments as
we see fit. So, I am content with taking my liberties in Photoshop and
calling it "the lab". And, when people say "is that an original?" I
can say "yes it is." 

Jane

Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-07 by Charles Becker

An original oil painting or an original inkjet print. 
So if you make a copy of�an original oil painting, then it's just that "a copy"
If you make a copy of your original inkjet print, then there just copies as well.
If you go out and take a picture with a digital camera and then make a print on an inkjet printer, is the first print the original and all others are copies? Food for thought. :)
If you tweak the file does it now become it's "own original"
Best, Charles

--- On Tue, 10/7/08, Jane Waters <janielaurel@coastaccess.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Jane Waters <janielaurel@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 9:56 AM






--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote (in response to my question about "what is an original
in a digital world"):
> >the curious question I get more and more often these days is "is 
> >this an original?" - what else would it be. Can you call an inkjet 
> >print an "original"? 
> 
> Yes, IMO. A print is the result of a lot of time, effort and artistic
> judgements and bears little resemblance to the original source (neg or
> digicam file). It certainly isn't a copy of the original (a copy of
> an original neg would look just like the original, a negative). Each
> print is made individually with great care and, even with digital
> printing, can be slightly different, especially if made at different
> times using different paper/ink production batches (or especially
> using different paper and/or ink). As my photoshop skills have
> improved over the years I have in several cases gone back and altered
> a digi file to improve it, with the result that later prints look
> different than earlier ones. Ansel also changed his treatment of an
> image over time. Look at how many different versions of his
> "Moonrise" are out there. 
> 
> I consider each print to be an original work of art, to which I place
> my signature. To me our ink prints are closely akin to photogravure,
> an early form of photographic ink print. These were considered works
> of art in their own right by Alfred Steiglitz, a pioneer in the fight
> for acceptance of photography as art in the early 1900s. The point
> is, photographs have already been established as works of art, and ink
> prints were right in there with emulsion prints during that time. We
> don't need to fight that battle all over again. The term "original"
> (as opposed to "copy") is appropriate for painting but irrelevant for
> photography.

Clayton,
thank you for your insights. Excellent as always. I DO consider every
print an original. And I state it as such at every show. I am now
going back to adding a signature to every photo, thus very clearly
stating that it is MINE and is of my own creation. The people I talk
to at shows these days are indeed looking for something with a higher
perceived value. Numbering works, as does signature. I keep a database
of what I sell, but I have not numbered "prints" for years. 

Every time I print a photo it's different. It changes with time of
year, time of day, ink, the current mind-set of the printer, the type
of paper. Therefore, it's logical to say that every print is an
original. I try, however, to stay as close to my original shot as
possible, and not fall victim to the incessant urge to add a full moon
here, a touch of clouds there...; Ansel Adams made his name by what he
produced in the lab, not necessarily by the content of his photos. He
WAS a master at framing shots, a technician of the highest level when
it came to framing. But, his true genius showed up in the
lab/development process. anyone who has seen prints from his original
plates/negatives can see that, and yes, his prints changed over time.
Our individual perception of what our original intent was in a photo
changes over time; the lab/photoshop allows us to make adjustments as
we see fit. So, I am content with taking my liberties in Photoshop and
calling it "the lab". And, when people say "is that an original?" I
can say "yes it is." 

Jane

 














      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-07 by Dana H. Myers

Charles Becker wrote:
> An original oil painting or an original inkjet print. 
> So if you make a copy of an original oil painting, then it's just that "a copy"
> If you make a copy of your original inkjet print, then there just copies as well.
> If you go out and take a picture with a digital camera and then make a print on an inkjet printer, is the first print the original and all others are copies? Food for thought. :)
> If you tweak the file does it now become it's "own original"
> Best, Charles

I'm sure all of us have set-up a print in an enlarger,
then exposed multiple sheets of paper in direct succession,
then developed them all at once.  All the prints are
original prints - not reproductions.

The same is true of inkjet prints from any source.

Cheers,
Dana

Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-08 by Joost Horsten

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Waters" 
> The world of art buyers is so seemingly pretentious,
> when in reality, they are just clueless people who really love a print
> but want a REASON to buy it. (perceived value).

A rather funny wor(l)d indeed ;-). But photographers are not the only 
ones. Years ago, it took me some time to realize that what sculptors 
call "Inox" is just plain stainless steel..... 

Joost

Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-08 by andre1moreau

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten"
<j.h.j.h@...> wrote:
>

> ones. Years ago, it took me some time to realize that what sculptors 
> call "Inox" is just plain stainless steel..... 
> 
Stainless steel is also known as "inox", short for the French term
acier inoxydable (Stainless steel).

Inoxydable: which cannot be oxydized.

Cheers,
André

Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-10 by Loring Palleske

Giclee is french for spurt spray or ejaculate. It is unlikely the word  
was used to describe a screen print.

The French incidently do not use the word to describe a Fine Art Ink  
Jet (spurted) print. I also doubt they use Sepia for their brown toned  
photos either...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 6-Oct-08, at 2:15 PM, viewcam43 wrote:

>> When I was younger (a very long time ago) a Giclee print was a top
> quality screen print. If that is so then it only applies to the
> quality of the print and not the way it was printed.

Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-11 by Ernst Dinkla

Loring Palleske wrote:
> Giclee is french for spurt spray or ejaculate. It is unlikely the word  
> was used to describe a screen print.

S\ufffdrigraphie it is for art in screen printing.
The international screen printers associations made that 
term official decades ago.

> 
> The French incidently do not use the word to describe a Fine Art Ink  
> Jet (spurted) print. I also doubt they use Sepia for their brown toned  
> photos either..

But let the French tell you what they think of the term:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gicl%C3%A9e

Digital printing in general is called  Impression Num\ufffdrique 
  but it isn't unusual to see the term Gicl\ufffde or Num\ufffdrique 
Gicl\ufffde for inkjet art prints. I guess the French are honored 
when even the humblest French words are used internationally 
where so many English terms are used in every language 
despite efforts to keep them pure. And the French are less 
hypocrite about body functions.

S\ufffdpia is Greek for cuttlefish actually related to "rotten" = 
cuttlefish ink decomposed or processed. Had to look that up 
though. Used by artists in any language for that color, in 
photography, etching, drawing etc. A term related to rotten 
that must have been around for centuries.

Here you have it all: S\ufffdrigraphie, Num\ufffdrique and the 
printshop calls itself SEPIA and has a house-style in that 
color:
http://serigraphie-impression-numerique-imprimerie-offset-isere.sepia-sarl.fr/

Le magic du Web.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-11 by Loring Palleske

Thank-you for that...

I had heard that it was Latin and hadn't delved deeper. I did know  
about the cuttlefish end and assumed it had to do with its ink output...

The whole rotten cuttlefish thing does make sense and is interesting  
that we should use the term to make our 'brown tone" prints more  
desirable!


On 11-Oct-08, at 1:36 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> Sépia is Greek for cuttlefish actually related to "rotten"

RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-11 by E Neilsen

Have you ever toned with Sepia toner; sulfide stinks. It may be more in
reference to smell than taste; like or dislike. 

 

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Loring
Palleske
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:00 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

 

Thank-you for that...

I had heard that it was Latin and hadn't delved deeper. I did know 
about the cuttlefish end and assumed it had to do with its ink output...

The whole rotten cuttlefish thing does make sense and is interesting 
that we should use the term to make our 'brown tone" prints more 
desirable!

On 11-Oct-08, at 1:36 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> Sépia is Greek for cuttlefish actually related to "rotten"

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-12 by Shoshanna Moser

>E Neilsen wrote:
 >Have you ever toned with Sepia toner; sulfide stinks. It may be more 
 >in reference to smell than taste; like or dislike.


.
It was always a staple in my darkroom, as were blue and (to a lesser 
extent) red toners-- and I wholeheartedly agree with you that they stank 
to high heaven, but they weren't alone in this.  Aromatic unpleasantness 
was pretty much part and parcel of many of the other chemicals with 
which we regularly worked. 

Face it, a traditional darkroom, for all the beautiful imagery we were 
able to produce, was not exactly an idyllic environment in which to 
work-- minimal light, dangerous chemicals, high levels of toxicity, the 
hazards of operating paper cutters and print dryers in that minimal 
light, the time and expense of making tests, the necessity and 
inconvenience of numerous paper safes in multiple sizes... sitting today 
at my desk, in a very comfortable leather chair, processing my digital 
negatives (RAW files) within Photoshop and turning out exquisite prints 
by doing scarcely more than lifting a finger, I feel no nostalgia 
whatsoever for the twenty-odd years I spent in a chemical darkroom.

Don't get me wrong-- I'm very grateful to have come to photography in 
the early '70s and learned the discipline of film and the art of  
traditional processing-- but I'm happy to use that knowledge and 
experience today to create digital prints of my work, with considerably 
less aggravation, effort, exhaustion, and expense. 

Best wishes,

Shoshanna
Gold Beach - South Coast of Oregon
http://www.pbase.com/shoshanna
http://mindworksunlimited.com/shoshannaspeak/





.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-12 by Clayton Jones

Hello Shoshanna,

>Face it, a traditional darkroom, for all the beautiful imagery we 
>were able to produce, was not exactly an idyllic environment in 
>which to work-- minimal light, dangerous chemicals, high levels of 
>toxicity, the hazards of operating paper cutters and print dryers in 
>that minimal light, the time and expense of making tests, the 
>necessity and inconvenience of numerous paper safes in multiple 
>sizes... sitting today at my desk, in a very comfortable leather 
>chair, processing my digital negatives (RAW files) within Photoshop 
>and turning out exquisite prints by doing scarcely more than lifting 
>a finger, I feel no nostalgia whatsoever for the twenty-odd years I 
>spent in a chemical darkroom.
> 
>Don't get me wrong-- I'm very grateful to have come to photography 
>in the early '70s and learned the discipline of film and the art of  
>traditional processing-- but I'm happy to use that knowledge and 
>experience today to create digital prints of my work, with 
>considerably less aggravation, effort, exhaustion, and expense. 

Well Said!  You painted a perfect picture.  I have to admit, however,
of a tiny bit of nostalgia...but not much.

I'm going to save this in my collection of favorite BW Forum quotes.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Darkroom lament and Origin RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-13 by E Neilsen

I am saddened that so many of you suffered in smelly darkrooms. Good
ventilation is the difference between enjoyable darkroom time and 

a dark dangerous place. But you missed the point, the previous post was more
about word creation and I was associating the smell with the words origin.
People could walk into my studio darkroom and smell but a hint of anything
chemical and many wondered if I really did make all those prints there.   

 

How many different boxes of digital paper do you have and the associated
sample packs which for the most part are not individually labeled so after a
few years goes by you have more scrapes of paper that you don't know than
do? At least with a paper safe they were out of sight out of mind ; ) 

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shoshanna
Moser
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 8:04 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

 

>E Neilsen wrote:
>Have you ever toned with Sepia toner; sulfide stinks. It may be more 
>in reference to smell than taste; like or dislike.

.
It was always a staple in my darkroom, as were blue and (to a lesser 
extent) red toners-- and I wholeheartedly agree with you that they stank 
to high heaven, but they weren't alone in this. Aromatic unpleasantness 
was pretty much part and parcel of many of the other chemicals with 
which we regularly worked. 


 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Darkroom lament and Origin RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight fr

2008-10-13 by Jules

You shouldn't be saddened, more went on in those darkrooms than just printing! Lol. 
  And as for sheets of paper not knowing what it is. Yes I have lots of those. Sample packs 
with ten sheets in, all unmarked. Knowing what profile to use to print on them is now 
impossible.
 Jules

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I am saddened that so many of you suffered in smelly darkrooms. Good
> ventilation is the difference between enjoyable darkroom time and 
> 
> a dark dangerous place. But you missed the point, the previous post was more
> about word creation and I was associating the smell with the words origin.
> People could walk into my studio darkroom and smell but a hint of anything
> chemical and many wondered if I really did make all those prints there.   
> 
>  
> 
> How many different boxes of digital paper do you have and the associated
> sample packs which for the most part are not individually labeled so after a
> few years goes by you have more scrapes of paper that you don't know than
> do? At least with a paper safe they were out of sight out of mind ; ) 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photo
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214 827-8301
> 
>  
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> SKype ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shoshanna
> Moser
> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 8:04 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source
> 
>  
> 
> >E Neilsen wrote:
> >Have you ever toned with Sepia toner; sulfide stinks. It may be more 
> >in reference to smell than taste; like or dislike.
> 
> .
> It was always a staple in my darkroom, as were blue and (to a lesser 
> extent) red toners-- and I wholeheartedly agree with you that they stank 
> to high heaven, but they weren't alone in this. Aromatic unpleasantness 
> was pretty much part and parcel of many of the other chemicals with 
> which we regularly worked. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Darkroom lament and Origin RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-14 by Shoshanna Moser

Over the years I had to set up more-or-less "permanent" darkrooms for 
myself in eleven different countries, and temporary (for 2-3 months or 
less) darkrooms in at least 40 other cities, towns, and rural byways in 
some interesting and sometimes dangerous corners of the world-- with 
very few exceptions, it was a question of what was possible, rather than 
what was optimal.  Decent ventilation was a luxury, and one only rarely 
available. 

I never particularly minded the problematic aspects of these 
arrangements, as my focus was on the images I was creating, but the 
environments in which I usually found myself working were challenging at 
best, and seriously hazardous at worst-- in one unforgettably disastrous 
(and, from my perspective, tragic) instance, more than twenty years of 
negatives were completely destroyed when the darkroom was rapidly 
flooded by burst pipes from overhead.  

What I was doing was often exciting, and always satisfying on many 
levels,  but the pictures I was creating were not made better by the 
technical and physical difficulties involved in the darkroom end of the 
work. 

Yes, today I do have numerous boxes of different sizes and surfaces of 
paper from different manufacturers, requiring differing profiles, but 
not only can I easily keep them plainly labeled, neatly stacked on 
shelves, and easily accessible, but I can open them without worrying 
that the slightest glancing blow of light will send $150 or more down 
the drain-- I can open them IN BROAD DAYLIGHT!  And should it be 
necessary to cut the paper down to a smaller size, I no longer have to 
do it in the dark with a guillotine-style paper cutter.

My ink cartridges do have expiration dates, but these have never yet 
proved to be a problem, and I no longer have to be forever labeling and 
then checking the dates on bottles of developing solutions, fixers, and 
a range of other useful, exotic, and incredibly deadly processing, 
post-processing, and retouching cocktails. 

Rather than doing very precise, eye-straining work in virtually no 
light, my home office is bathed in sunshine.  Rather than having to 
maintain strictly careful procedures and keep my hands gloved to protect 
them from toxic chemicals, I can safely and contentedly enjoy a cup of 
Jamaican Blue Mountain-- and while one of my Epsons is turning out a 
perfect print, I can relax by gazing out the windows at the ocean, the 
raccoons playing on my deck, and the deer nuzzling the rose bushes. 

I might also add that, left all on their own, the prints dry to a 
beautiful finish and I no longer need to be placing wet prints on the 
very hot metal surfaces of print dryers and tightly battening down their 
canvas covers to keep the prints from buckling.

And rather than having my pictures entrusted to the vulnerable form of 
film negatives-- perpetual hostages to fortune-- my digital negatives 
are regularly backed up on four sets of DVDs made by four different 
manufacturers.  One set is kept in a safe deposit box at the bank. 

I still own an impressive collection of high-end darkroom equipment-- 
all carefully packed away in boxes.  Don't ask me why, because I'll 
never use it again.  I feel no desire to use it again.  But someday I'll 
know what to do with it-- perhaps one day I'll come across some young 
person who wants to learn the traditional methods, and I'll know that 
this is the person to whom to give it.  But in the meantime, it waits, 
and I continue moving forward. 

That said, the brave new world in which we operate is not without its flaws.

Ten years or so ago, when digital photography was first really beginning 
to make its impact felt in the consumer market, I mistakenly believed 
that it would be a marvelous gift to young, beginning photographers who 
would no longer be constrained by the financial considerations of film 
and commercial processing or the demands of a traditional darkroom.  I 
was very wrong, because what I thought would be the freedom to explore 
and discover became, instead, the license to be sloppy, undisciplined, 
and mindless. 

Instead of considering each shot, thinking about angle and light, 
perspective and exposure, color, surface, and texture, the determinedly 
and willfully ignorant simply turn their cameras in the desired 
direction and snap away.  Having never learned anything about editing, 
they post to the web their 100+ nearly-identical shots, with no idea 
whatsoever about what makes a picture good, bad, or indifferent.  Then, 
on email lists, they announce what they've done and ask for comments-- 
which translates as "tell me how wonderful I am!", as they will tolerate 
nothing but unstinting praise, free of any hint of criticism.  And 
that's exactly what they receive-- from others as ignorant as 
themselves, because those who actually know and could tell them 
everything they're doing wrong have long since discovered that in this 
day and age of preserving self-esteem above all else, it's unacceptable  
to tell anyone he's done something badly. 

If this strikes anyone as harsh, that's too damned bad.

I'm glad that the people from whom I learned were demanding, critical, 
and not at all inclined to let me get away with sloppy efforts to which 
no creative thought or technical knowledge had been brought.  I'm also 
glad to have worked for a series of hard-nosed, nasty-tempered editors 
who knew what they wanted and accepted nothing less. 

I don't respect what's going on today, and I'm appalled by the fact that 
everyone who buys a DSLR seems to feel that owning the equipment is all 
the justification required to identify himself as a "photographer".  All 
these "well I just bought a camera and I'd like to make some money at 
it" posts are not only insulting as hell to all of those who've actually 
learned their business and paid their dues, but also irresponsibly put 
at risk the photographic record of the weddings, anniversaries, 
graduations, christenings, bar mitzvahs, and other special, 
once-in-a-lifetime events that the innocent and naive may foolishly hire 
them to shoot.  The results can be very sad indeed.

Photography is currently experiencing a transition that is not without 
its painful and difficult aspects, and part of the process seems to 
involve the mistaken belief that this is something "anyone can do."  
And, of course, reduced to its most basic mechanics-- pointing the 
camera and pushing a button-- there's some truth to that.  But pointing 
the camera and pushing a button is about as far as the vast majority of 
people will ever go-- and that's not photography, no matter how much 
they tell themselves that it is.

In the long run, the novelty and continuing advances of digital 
technology will become less and less a beguiling distraction, and the 
focus will return-- as well it should-- to the quality of the pictures 
being created.  Those who've put the time, effort, and energy into 
learning what they're doing, inviting, withstanding, and benefiting from 
tough criticism, developing their skills, expanding their abilities, 
discovering and working at what they do best, and understanding that 
quantity means nothing if not accompanied by quality, will eventually 
evolve into photographers... the real McCoy.  

The rest will no doubt continue to delude themselves... but not anyone else.

Best wishes,

Shoshanna
Gold Beach - South Coast of Oregon
http://www.pbase.com/shoshanna
http://mindworksunlimited.com/shoshannaspeak/





E Neilsen wrote:
>
> I am saddened that so many of you suffered in smelly darkrooms. Good
> ventilation is the difference between enjoyable darkroom time and
>
> a dark dangerous place. But you missed the point, the previous post 
> was more
> about word creation and I was associating the smell with the words origin.
> People could walk into my studio darkroom and smell but a hint of anything
> chemical and many wondered if I really did make all those prints there.
>
> How many different boxes of digital paper do you have and the associated
> sample packs which for the most part are not individually labeled so 
> after a
> few years goes by you have more scrapes of paper that you don't know than
> do? At least with a paper safe they were out of sight out of mind ; )
>
> Eric
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Darkroom lament and Origin RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-14 by James Irelan

Shoshanna,

This is a good post from someone obviously qualified to make these  
observations.

I first fell in love with photography when I saw my first image come  
up in the developer tray in about 1990.  I needed an art as part of  
my curriculum for nursing school, always wanted to photograph, had my  
first credit card, got a used Nikon FM and a normal lens, signed up  
for a class in what turned out to be an excellent photo department,  
and bam.  I was off like a rocket.  I think I worked harder at  
photography than I did at nursing.  I certainly felt more passion for  
it.  I bugged everybody at the local photo stores with questions,   
read everything, read all about densitometry, read Phil Davis,  
couldn't understand what the hell, read it again...

There was something about the darkroom.  Something about it.  It was  
magical to me.  I spent hours in there, whole days.  I ventured  
outside only when I realized I could no longer put off going to the  
bathroom.  Far from apprehending the darkroom as smelly, I loved the  
smell of it.  Weird, maybe.  I made test after test, trying to make a  
good print.  And when I made my final print, I was thrilled.  "Look  
at THAT!!", I'd say to myself out loud.  It matter none to me that my  
efforts were doubtlessly pedestrian compared to those of an  
accomplished printer.  I was creating beauty.  My love of photography  
was always driven  by my love of printing.

I've made digital prints which have also thrilled me in a similar  
manner.  I am not going to go back to the wet darkroom, for a number  
of reasons.  However, while I feel that the quality of prints can be  
equalled and exceeded by the digital process, I have to say that the  
experience of producing a print in the wet darkroom... well, it's  
just not the same with digital.  Maybe that's because the wet  
darkroom was my first experience with print making.  Maybe it was the  
meditative atmosphere of being alone there in the dark with my amber  
safelight.  My girlfriend at the time started calling me "mole man".   
There really was a whole experiential aspect to it no longer  
available with my nice new inkjet printers.

And then we come to the part of your post where you discuss the ease  
of snapping and printing and becoming an instant photographer.  I  
have never been a pro photog, but the same phenomenon exists in  
music, and I have been (and still am, occasionally) a professional  
musician.  Today the digital world has given us all sorts of tools  
where people who are not even musicians, who couldn't play a job on  
an instrument if their life depended on it, can put together  
"tracks", using loops and presets, canned drums,  and all sorts of  
things that someone else has provided for them, and then declare  
themselves musicians.  And the sad part is:  the public often agrees  
with them.

With these facile tools comes the ease of use and a range of options  
and capabilities never existing before.  The power of the tools  
brings along with it people who... well, if they had to print the way  
Edward Weston did... wouldn't be able to.  I mean, wouldn't be able  
to even get an image.  If they had to pick up an instrument and play  
Happy Birthday, they couldn't.  Literally couldn't, but they might  
actually have a reputation of some sort or other based on tools that   
makes music for them, and they just sort of organize things.

I guess, as Bruce Hornsby sang, "that's just the way it is..."


James Irelan



On Oct 13, 2008, at 7:03 PM, Shoshanna Moser wrote:

> Over the years I had to set up more-or-less "permanent" darkrooms for
> myself in eleven different countries, and temporary (for 2-3 months or
> less) darkrooms in at least 40 other cities, towns, and rural  
> byways in
> some interesting and sometimes dangerous corners of the world-- with
> very few exceptions, it was a question of what was possible, rather  
> than
> what was optimal. Decent ventilation was a luxury, and one only rarely
> available.
>
> I never particularly minded the problematic aspects of these
> arrangements, as my focus was on the images I was creating, but the
> environments in which I usually found myself working were  
> challenging at
> best, and seriously hazardous at worst-- in one unforgettably  
> disastrous
> (and, from my perspective, tragic) instance, more than twenty years of
> negatives were completely destroyed when the darkroom was rapidly
> flooded by burst pipes from overhead.
>
> What I was doing was often exciting, and always satisfying on many
> levels, but the pictures I was creating were not made better by the
> technical and physical difficulties involved in the darkroom end of  
> the
> work.
>
> Yes, today I do have numerous boxes of different sizes and surfaces of
> paper from different manufacturers, requiring differing profiles, but
> not only can I easily keep them plainly labeled, neatly stacked on
> shelves, and easily accessible, but I can open them without worrying
> that the slightest glancing blow of light will send $150 or more down
> the drain-- I can open them IN BROAD DAYLIGHT! And should it be
> necessary to cut the paper down to a smaller size, I no longer have to
> do it in the dark with a guillotine-style paper cutter.
>
> My ink cartridges do have expiration dates, but these have never yet
> proved to be a problem, and I no longer have to be forever labeling  
> and
> then checking the dates on bottles of developing solutions, fixers,  
> and
> a range of other useful, exotic, and incredibly deadly processing,
> post-processing, and retouching cocktails.
>
> Rather than doing very precise, eye-straining work in virtually no
> light, my home office is bathed in sunshine. Rather than having to
> maintain strictly careful procedures and keep my hands gloved to  
> protect
> them from toxic chemicals, I can safely and contentedly enjoy a cup of
> Jamaican Blue Mountain-- and while one of my Epsons is turning out a
> perfect print, I can relax by gazing out the windows at the ocean, the
> raccoons playing on my deck, and the deer nuzzling the rose bushes.
>
> I might also add that, left all on their own, the prints dry to a
> beautiful finish and I no longer need to be placing wet prints on the
> very hot metal surfaces of print dryers and tightly battening down  
> their
> canvas covers to keep the prints from buckling.
>
> And rather than having my pictures entrusted to the vulnerable form of
> film negatives-- perpetual hostages to fortune-- my digital negatives
> are regularly backed up on four sets of DVDs made by four different
> manufacturers. One set is kept in a safe deposit box at the bank.
>
> I still own an impressive collection of high-end darkroom equipment--
> all carefully packed away in boxes. Don't ask me why, because I'll
> never use it again. I feel no desire to use it again. But someday I'll
> know what to do with it-- perhaps one day I'll come across some young
> person who wants to learn the traditional methods, and I'll know that
> this is the person to whom to give it. But in the meantime, it waits,
> and I continue moving forward.
>
> That said, the brave new world in which we operate is not without  
> its flaws.
>
> Ten years or so ago, when digital photography was first really  
> beginning
> to make its impact felt in the consumer market, I mistakenly believed
> that it would be a marvelous gift to young, beginning photographers  
> who
> would no longer be constrained by the financial considerations of film
> and commercial processing or the demands of a traditional darkroom. I
> was very wrong, because what I thought would be the freedom to explore
> and discover became, instead, the license to be sloppy, undisciplined,
> and mindless.
>
> Instead of considering each shot, thinking about angle and light,
> perspective and exposure, color, surface, and texture, the  
> determinedly
> and willfully ignorant simply turn their cameras in the desired
> direction and snap away. Having never learned anything about editing,
> they post to the web their 100+ nearly-identical shots, with no idea
> whatsoever about what makes a picture good, bad, or indifferent. Then,
> on email lists, they announce what they've done and ask for comments--
> which translates as "tell me how wonderful I am!", as they will  
> tolerate
> nothing but unstinting praise, free of any hint of criticism. And
> that's exactly what they receive-- from others as ignorant as
> themselves, because those who actually know and could tell them
> everything they're doing wrong have long since discovered that in this
> day and age of preserving self-esteem above all else, it's  
> unacceptable
> to tell anyone he's done something badly.
>
> If this strikes anyone as harsh, that's too damned bad.
>
> I'm glad that the people from whom I learned were demanding, critical,
> and not at all inclined to let me get away with sloppy efforts to  
> which
> no creative thought or technical knowledge had been brought. I'm also
> glad to have worked for a series of hard-nosed, nasty-tempered editors
> who knew what they wanted and accepted nothing less.
>
> I don't respect what's going on today, and I'm appalled by the fact  
> that
> everyone who buys a DSLR seems to feel that owning the equipment is  
> all
> the justification required to identify himself as a "photographer".  
> All
> these "well I just bought a camera and I'd like to make some money at
> it" posts are not only insulting as hell to all of those who've  
> actually
> learned their business and paid their dues, but also irresponsibly put
> at risk the photographic record of the weddings, anniversaries,
> graduations, christenings, bar mitzvahs, and other special,
> once-in-a-lifetime events that the innocent and naive may foolishly  
> hire
> them to shoot. The results can be very sad indeed.
>
> Photography is currently experiencing a transition that is not without
> its painful and difficult aspects, and part of the process seems to
> involve the mistaken belief that this is something "anyone can do."
> And, of course, reduced to its most basic mechanics-- pointing the
> camera and pushing a button-- there's some truth to that. But pointing
> the camera and pushing a button is about as far as the vast  
> majority of
> people will ever go-- and that's not photography, no matter how much
> they tell themselves that it is.
>
> In the long run, the novelty and continuing advances of digital
> technology will become less and less a beguiling distraction, and the
> focus will return-- as well it should-- to the quality of the pictures
> being created. Those who've put the time, effort, and energy into
> learning what they're doing, inviting, withstanding, and benefiting  
> from
> tough criticism, developing their skills, expanding their abilities,
> discovering and working at what they do best, and understanding that
> quantity means nothing if not accompanied by quality, will eventually
> evolve into photographers... the real McCoy.
>
> The rest will no doubt continue to delude themselves... but not  
> anyone else.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Shoshanna
> Gold Beach - South Coast of Oregon
> http://www.pbase.com/shoshanna
> http://mindworksunlimited.com/shoshannaspeak/
>
> E Neilsen wrote:
> >
> > I am saddened that so many of you suffered in smelly darkrooms. Good
> > ventilation is the difference between enjoyable darkroom time and
> >
> > a dark dangerous place. But you missed the point, the previous post
> > was more
> > about word creation and I was associating the smell with the  
> words origin.
> > People could walk into my studio darkroom and smell but a hint of  
> anything
> > chemical and many wondered if I really did make all those prints  
> there.
> >
> > How many different boxes of digital paper do you have and the  
> associated
> > sample packs which for the most part are not individually labeled so
> > after a
> > few years goes by you have more scrapes of paper that you don't  
> know than
> > do? At least with a paper safe they were out of sight out of  
> mind ; )
> >
> > Eric
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: Darkroom lament and Origin RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-14 by Robert W Shearer

Great commentary, Shoshanna. I moved your post to my save file. I value
every darkroom lesson but have no desire for a refresher course.

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shoshanna
Moser
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 8:03 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Darkroom lament and Origin RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a
Giclee.... straight from the source

 


I don't respect what's going on today, and I'm appalled by the fact that 
everyone who buys a DSLR seems to feel that owning the equipment is all 
the justification required to identify himself as a "photographer". All 
these "well I just bought a camera and I'd like to make some money at 
it" posts are not only insulting as hell to all of those who've actually 
learned their business and paid their dues, but also irresponsibly put 
at risk the photographic record of the weddings, anniversaries, 
graduations, christenings, bar mitzvahs, and other special, 
once-in-a-lifetime events that the innocent and naive may foolishly hire 
them to shoot. The results can be very sad indeed.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Darkroom lament and Origin RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-10-16 by Charles Becker

I believe it all starts with buying your first camera and being very exicted to go out and capture the world! 
�
Best, Charles

--- On Mon, 10/13/08, James Irelan <james@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: James Irelan <james@redweather.com>
Subject: Re: Darkroom lament and Origin RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 8:29 PM

Shoshanna,

This is a good post from someone obviously qualified to make these  
observations.

I first fell in love with photography when I saw my first image come  
up in the developer tray in about 1990.  I needed an art as part of  
my curriculum for nursing school, always wanted to photograph, had my  
first credit card, got a used Nikon FM and a normal lens, signed up  
for a class in what turned out to be an excellent photo department,  
and bam.  I was off like a rocket.  I think I worked harder at  
photography than I did at nursing.  I certainly felt more passion for  
it.  I bugged everybody at the local photo stores with questions,   
read everything, read all about densitometry, read Phil Davis,  
couldn't understand what the hell, read it again...

There was something about the darkroom.  Something about it.  It was  
magical to me.  I spent hours in there, whole days.  I ventured  
outside only when I realized I could no longer put off going to the  
bathroom.  Far from apprehending the darkroom as smelly, I loved the  
smell of it.  Weird, maybe.  I made test after test, trying to make a  
good print.  And when I made my final print, I was thrilled.  "Look  
at THAT!!", I'd say to myself out loud.  It matter none to me that my 

efforts were doubtlessly pedestrian compared to those of an  
accomplished printer.  I was creating beauty.  My love of photography  
was always driven  by my love of printing.

I've made digital prints which have also thrilled me in a similar  
manner.  I am not going to go back to the wet darkroom, for a number  
of reasons.  However, while I feel that the quality of prints can be  
equalled and exceeded by the digital process, I have to say that the  
experience of producing a print in the wet darkroom... well, it's  
just not the same with digital.  Maybe that's because the wet  
darkroom was my first experience with print making.  Maybe it was the  
meditative atmosphere of being alone there in the dark with my amber  
safelight.  My girlfriend at the time started calling me "mole man". 
 
There really was a whole experiential aspect to it no longer  
available with my nice new inkjet printers.

And then we come to the part of your post where you discuss the ease  
of snapping and printing and becoming an instant photographer.  I  
have never been a pro photog, but the same phenomenon exists in  
music, and I have been (and still am, occasionally) a professional  
musician.  Today the digital world has given us all sorts of tools  
where people who are not even musicians, who couldn't play a job on  
an instrument if their life depended on it, can put together  
"tracks", using loops and presets, canned drums,  and all sorts of  
things that someone else has provided for them, and then declare  
themselves musicians.  And the sad part is:  the public often agrees  
with them.

With these facile tools comes the ease of use and a range of options  
and capabilities never existing before.  The power of the tools  
brings along with it people who... well, if they had to print the way  
Edward Weston did... wouldn't be able to.  I mean, wouldn't be able  
to even get an image.  If they had to pick up an instrument and play  
Happy Birthday, they couldn't.  Literally couldn't, but they might  
actually have a reputation of some sort or other based on tools that   
makes music for them, and they just sort of organize things.

I guess, as Bruce Hornsby sang, "that's just the way it is..."


James Irelan



On Oct 13, 2008, at 7:03 PM, Shoshanna Moser wrote:

> Over the years I had to set up more-or-less "permanent"
darkrooms for
> myself in eleven different countries, and temporary (for 2-3 months or
> less) darkrooms in at least 40 other cities, towns, and rural  
> byways in
> some interesting and sometimes dangerous corners of the world-- with
> very few exceptions, it was a question of what was possible, rather  
> than
> what was optimal. Decent ventilation was a luxury, and one only rarely
> available.
>
> I never particularly minded the problematic aspects of these
> arrangements, as my focus was on the images I was creating, but the
> environments in which I usually found myself working were  
> challenging at
> best, and seriously hazardous at worst-- in one unforgettably  
> disastrous
> (and, from my perspective, tragic) instance, more than twenty years of
> negatives were completely destroyed when the darkroom was rapidly
> flooded by burst pipes from overhead.
>
> What I was doing was often exciting, and always satisfying on many
> levels, but the pictures I was creating were not made better by the
> technical and physical difficulties involved in the darkroom end of  
> the
> work.
>
> Yes, today I do have numerous boxes of different sizes and surfaces of
> paper from different manufacturers, requiring differing profiles, but
> not only can I easily keep them plainly labeled, neatly stacked on
> shelves, and easily accessible, but I can open them without worrying
> that the slightest glancing blow of light will send $150 or more down
> the drain-- I can open them IN BROAD DAYLIGHT! And should it be
> necessary to cut the paper down to a smaller size, I no longer have to
> do it in the dark with a guillotine-style paper cutter.
>
> My ink cartridges do have expiration dates, but these have never yet
> proved to be a problem, and I no longer have to be forever labeling  
> and
> then checking the dates on bottles of developing solutions, fixers,  
> and
> a range of other useful, exotic, and incredibly deadly processing,
> post-processing, and retouching cocktails.
>
> Rather than doing very precise, eye-straining work in virtually no
> light, my home office is bathed in sunshine. Rather than having to
> maintain strictly careful procedures and keep my hands gloved to  
> protect
> them from toxic chemicals, I can safely and contentedly enjoy a cup of
> Jamaican Blue Mountain-- and while one of my Epsons is turning out a
> perfect print, I can relax by gazing out the windows at the ocean, the
> raccoons playing on my deck, and the deer nuzzling the rose bushes.
>
> I might also add that, left all on their own, the prints dry to a
> beautiful finish and I no longer need to be placing wet prints on the
> very hot metal surfaces of print dryers and tightly battening down  
> their
> canvas covers to keep the prints from buckling.
>
> And rather than having my pictures entrusted to the vulnerable form of
> film negatives-- perpetual hostages to fortune-- my digital negatives
> are regularly backed up on four sets of DVDs made by four different
> manufacturers. One set is kept in a safe deposit box at the bank.
>
> I still own an impressive collection of high-end darkroom equipment--
> all carefully packed away in boxes. Don't ask me why, because I'll
> never use it again. I feel no desire to use it again. But someday I'll
> know what to do with it-- perhaps one day I'll come across some young
> person who wants to learn the traditional methods, and I'll know that
> this is the person to whom to give it. But in the meantime, it waits,
> and I continue moving forward.
>
> That said, the brave new world in which we operate is not without  
> its flaws.
>
> Ten years or so ago, when digital photography was first really  
> beginning
> to make its impact felt in the consumer market, I mistakenly believed
> that it would be a marvelous gift to young, beginning photographers  
> who
> would no longer be constrained by the financial considerations of film
> and commercial processing or the demands of a traditional darkroom. I
> was very wrong, because what I thought would be the freedom to explore
> and discover became, instead, the license to be sloppy, undisciplined,
> and mindless.
>
> Instead of considering each shot, thinking about angle and light,
> perspective and exposure, color, surface, and texture, the  
> determinedly
> and willfully ignorant simply turn their cameras in the desired
> direction and snap away. Having never learned anything about editing,
> they post to the web their 100+ nearly-identical shots, with no idea
> whatsoever about what makes a picture good, bad, or indifferent. Then,
> on email lists, they announce what they've done and ask for comments--
> which translates as "tell me how wonderful I am!", as they will 

> tolerate
> nothing but unstinting praise, free of any hint of criticism. And
> that's exactly what they receive-- from others as ignorant as
> themselves, because those who actually know and could tell them
> everything they're doing wrong have long since discovered that in this
> day and age of preserving self-esteem above all else, it's  
> unacceptable
> to tell anyone he's done something badly.
>
> If this strikes anyone as harsh, that's too damned bad.
>
> I'm glad that the people from whom I learned were demanding, critical,
> and not at all inclined to let me get away with sloppy efforts to  
> which
> no creative thought or technical knowledge had been brought. I'm also
> glad to have worked for a series of hard-nosed, nasty-tempered editors
> who knew what they wanted and accepted nothing less.
>
> I don't respect what's going on today, and I'm appalled by the
fact  
> that
> everyone who buys a DSLR seems to feel that owning the equipment is  
> all
> the justification required to identify himself as a
"photographer".  
> All
> these "well I just bought a camera and I'd like to make some
money at
> it" posts are not only insulting as hell to all of those who've  
> actually
> learned their business and paid their dues, but also irresponsibly put
> at risk the photographic record of the weddings, anniversaries,
> graduations, christenings, bar mitzvahs, and other special,
> once-in-a-lifetime events that the innocent and naive may foolishly  
> hire
> them to shoot. The results can be very sad indeed.
>
> Photography is currently experiencing a transition that is not without
> its painful and difficult aspects, and part of the process seems to
> involve the mistaken belief that this is something "anyone can
do."
> And, of course, reduced to its most basic mechanics-- pointing the
> camera and pushing a button-- there's some truth to that. But pointing
> the camera and pushing a button is about as far as the vast  
> majority of
> people will ever go-- and that's not photography, no matter how much
> they tell themselves that it is.
>
> In the long run, the novelty and continuing advances of digital
> technology will become less and less a beguiling distraction, and the
> focus will return-- as well it should-- to the quality of the pictures
> being created. Those who've put the time, effort, and energy into
> learning what they're doing, inviting, withstanding, and benefiting  
> from
> tough criticism, developing their skills, expanding their abilities,
> discovering and working at what they do best, and understanding that
> quantity means nothing if not accompanied by quality, will eventually
> evolve into photographers... the real McCoy.
>
> The rest will no doubt continue to delude themselves... but not  
> anyone else.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Shoshanna
> Gold Beach - South Coast of Oregon
> http://www.pbase.com/shoshanna
> http://mindworksunlimited.com/shoshannaspeak/
>
> E Neilsen wrote:
> >
> > I am saddened that so many of you suffered in smelly darkrooms. Good
> > ventilation is the difference between enjoyable darkroom time and
> >
> > a dark dangerous place. But you missed the point, the previous post
> > was more
> > about word creation and I was associating the smell with the  
> words origin.
> > People could walk into my studio darkroom and smell but a hint of  
> anything
> > chemical and many wondered if I really did make all those prints  
> there.
> >
> > How many different boxes of digital paper do you have and the  
> associated
> > sample packs which for the most part are not individually labeled so
> > after a
> > few years goes by you have more scrapes of paper that you don't  
> know than
> > do? At least with a paper safe they were out of sight out of  
> mind ; )
> >
> > Eric
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Darkroom lament and Origin RE: [Digital BW] Re:What is a Giclee.... straight from the source

2008-11-11 by meeshieck

how I would love to have my studio overlooking the ocean...

anyway, let me propose a question then. I gave this thing some thought
but would love opinions from those more experienced than me. For
limited editions my customers often like certificates and I'm using
the ones you can buy from hahnemuehle. they have even their own text
for them, but I have a feeling that they haven't got quite right. what
it says is:

This numbered edition printed on premium Hahnemu\u0308hle paper is from an
authentic
single limited publication. It is produced using either the method of
photo litography,
serigraphy or lithography and is approved signed and numbered by the
artist or
publisher.
To ensure the integrity of the edition, all originals, extra-copies
and plates were
destroyed on completion. The artist and publisher hereby affirm the
authenticity of this limited edition with this certificate.

it's all good except it never mentions anything about inkjet printing
(or the words are to smart for me) which is kind of odd since they
placed it in digital fine art section of their website. so the
question is:

how would you rephrase this so it would be good reflection of what we do?

m. 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Shoshanna Moser
<equinox@...> wrote:
>
> Over the years I had to set up more-or-less "permanent" darkrooms for 
> myself in eleven different countries, and temporary (for 2-3 months or 
> less) darkrooms in at least 40 other cities, towns, and rural byways in 
> some interesting and sometimes dangerous corners of the world-- with 
> very few exceptions, it was a question of what was possible, rather
than 
> what was optimal.  Decent ventilation was a luxury, and one only rarely 
> available. 
> 
> I never particularly minded the problematic aspects of these 
> arrangements, as my focus was on the images I was creating, but the 
> environments in which I usually found myself working were
challenging at 
> best, and seriously hazardous at worst-- in one unforgettably
disastrous 
> (and, from my perspective, tragic) instance, more than twenty years of 
> negatives were completely destroyed when the darkroom was rapidly 
> flooded by burst pipes from overhead.  
> 
> What I was doing was often exciting, and always satisfying on many 
> levels,  but the pictures I was creating were not made better by the 
> technical and physical difficulties involved in the darkroom end of the 
> work. 
> 
> Yes, today I do have numerous boxes of different sizes and surfaces of 
> paper from different manufacturers, requiring differing profiles, but 
> not only can I easily keep them plainly labeled, neatly stacked on 
> shelves, and easily accessible, but I can open them without worrying 
> that the slightest glancing blow of light will send $150 or more down 
> the drain-- I can open them IN BROAD DAYLIGHT!  And should it be 
> necessary to cut the paper down to a smaller size, I no longer have to 
> do it in the dark with a guillotine-style paper cutter.
> 
> My ink cartridges do have expiration dates, but these have never yet 
> proved to be a problem, and I no longer have to be forever labeling and 
> then checking the dates on bottles of developing solutions, fixers, and 
> a range of other useful, exotic, and incredibly deadly processing, 
> post-processing, and retouching cocktails. 
> 
> Rather than doing very precise, eye-straining work in virtually no 
> light, my home office is bathed in sunshine.  Rather than having to 
> maintain strictly careful procedures and keep my hands gloved to
protect 
> them from toxic chemicals, I can safely and contentedly enjoy a cup of 
> Jamaican Blue Mountain-- and while one of my Epsons is turning out a 
> perfect print, I can relax by gazing out the windows at the ocean, the 
> raccoons playing on my deck, and the deer nuzzling the rose bushes. 
> 
> I might also add that, left all on their own, the prints dry to a 
> beautiful finish and I no longer need to be placing wet prints on the 
> very hot metal surfaces of print dryers and tightly battening down
their 
> canvas covers to keep the prints from buckling.
> 
> And rather than having my pictures entrusted to the vulnerable form of 
> film negatives-- perpetual hostages to fortune-- my digital negatives 
> are regularly backed up on four sets of DVDs made by four different 
> manufacturers.  One set is kept in a safe deposit box at the bank. 
> 
> I still own an impressive collection of high-end darkroom equipment-- 
> all carefully packed away in boxes.  Don't ask me why, because I'll 
> never use it again.  I feel no desire to use it again.  But someday
I'll 
> know what to do with it-- perhaps one day I'll come across some young 
> person who wants to learn the traditional methods, and I'll know that 
> this is the person to whom to give it.  But in the meantime, it waits, 
> and I continue moving forward. 
> 
> That said, the brave new world in which we operate is not without
its flaws.
> 
> Ten years or so ago, when digital photography was first really
beginning 
> to make its impact felt in the consumer market, I mistakenly believed 
> that it would be a marvelous gift to young, beginning photographers who 
> would no longer be constrained by the financial considerations of film 
> and commercial processing or the demands of a traditional darkroom.  I 
> was very wrong, because what I thought would be the freedom to explore 
> and discover became, instead, the license to be sloppy, undisciplined, 
> and mindless. 
> 
> Instead of considering each shot, thinking about angle and light, 
> perspective and exposure, color, surface, and texture, the determinedly 
> and willfully ignorant simply turn their cameras in the desired 
> direction and snap away.  Having never learned anything about editing, 
> they post to the web their 100+ nearly-identical shots, with no idea 
> whatsoever about what makes a picture good, bad, or indifferent.  Then, 
> on email lists, they announce what they've done and ask for comments-- 
> which translates as "tell me how wonderful I am!", as they will
tolerate 
> nothing but unstinting praise, free of any hint of criticism.  And 
> that's exactly what they receive-- from others as ignorant as 
> themselves, because those who actually know and could tell them 
> everything they're doing wrong have long since discovered that in this 
> day and age of preserving self-esteem above all else, it's
unacceptable  
> to tell anyone he's done something badly. 
> 
> If this strikes anyone as harsh, that's too damned bad.
> 
> I'm glad that the people from whom I learned were demanding, critical, 
> and not at all inclined to let me get away with sloppy efforts to which 
> no creative thought or technical knowledge had been brought.  I'm also 
> glad to have worked for a series of hard-nosed, nasty-tempered editors 
> who knew what they wanted and accepted nothing less. 
> 
> I don't respect what's going on today, and I'm appalled by the fact
that 
> everyone who buys a DSLR seems to feel that owning the equipment is all 
> the justification required to identify himself as a "photographer".
 All 
> these "well I just bought a camera and I'd like to make some money at 
> it" posts are not only insulting as hell to all of those who've
actually 
> learned their business and paid their dues, but also irresponsibly put 
> at risk the photographic record of the weddings, anniversaries, 
> graduations, christenings, bar mitzvahs, and other special, 
> once-in-a-lifetime events that the innocent and naive may foolishly
hire 
> them to shoot.  The results can be very sad indeed.
> 
> Photography is currently experiencing a transition that is not without 
> its painful and difficult aspects, and part of the process seems to 
> involve the mistaken belief that this is something "anyone can do."  
> And, of course, reduced to its most basic mechanics-- pointing the 
> camera and pushing a button-- there's some truth to that.  But pointing 
> the camera and pushing a button is about as far as the vast majority of 
> people will ever go-- and that's not photography, no matter how much 
> they tell themselves that it is.
> 
> In the long run, the novelty and continuing advances of digital 
> technology will become less and less a beguiling distraction, and the 
> focus will return-- as well it should-- to the quality of the pictures 
> being created.  Those who've put the time, effort, and energy into 
> learning what they're doing, inviting, withstanding, and benefiting
from 
> tough criticism, developing their skills, expanding their abilities, 
> discovering and working at what they do best, and understanding that 
> quantity means nothing if not accompanied by quality, will eventually 
> evolve into photographers... the real McCoy.  
> 
> The rest will no doubt continue to delude themselves... but not
anyone else.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Shoshanna
> Gold Beach - South Coast of Oregon
> http://www.pbase.com/shoshanna
> http://mindworksunlimited.com/shoshannaspeak/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E Neilsen wrote:
> >
> > I am saddened that so many of you suffered in smelly darkrooms. Good
> > ventilation is the difference between enjoyable darkroom time and
> >
> > a dark dangerous place. But you missed the point, the previous post 
> > was more
> > about word creation and I was associating the smell with the words
origin.
> > People could walk into my studio darkroom and smell but a hint of
anything
> > chemical and many wondered if I really did make all those prints
there.
> >
> > How many different boxes of digital paper do you have and the
associated
> > sample packs which for the most part are not individually labeled so 
> > after a
> > few years goes by you have more scrapes of paper that you don't
know than
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> > do? At least with a paper safe they were out of sight out of mind ; )
> >
> > Eric
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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