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trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-01 by acgenerator@att.net

I've recently expanded to a second frame but am having trouble getting my VC source from the LFO (A-146) on one frame to come across to the destination on the other frame ( in this case A-107). Both frames work correctly, as do both modules. These modules were always on separate buses. Same problem exists with any similar patch.

My understanding of the A-185 is for establishing the connection on the BUS LEVEL. I am looking to do this with the front cables. Is this the solution?

Do I need to pass thru an attenuator such as A-183-1?

Or am I overlooking something else?

Re: [Doepfer_a100] trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-01 by Nicholas Keller

Neither of those two modules send or receive CV via the bus. You must do those connections via front panel. Only MIDI/CV, VCOs, and some envelopes communicate via bus (unless modified).

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On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, acgenerator@att.net [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I've recently expanded to a second frame but am having trouble getting my VC source from the LFO (A-146) on one frame to come across to the destination on the other frame ( in this case A-107). Both frames work correctly, as do both modules. These modules were always on separate buses. Same problem exists with any similar patch.

My understanding of the A-185 is for establishing the connection on the BUS LEVEL. I am looking to do this with the front cables. Is this the solution?

Do I need to pass thru an attenuator such as A-183-1?

Or am I overlooking something else?

Re: [Doepfer_a100] trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-01 by Nicholas Keller

Ok, obviously the 185 also communicates with the bus, but you will have to patch the LFO output into the 107 CV input (CV1 for no attenuator, CV2 if attenuation is desired), not into the 185.

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On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Nicholas Keller <maq163x2@gmail.com> wrote:

Neither of those two modules send or receive CV via the bus. You must do those connections via front panel. Only MIDI/CV, VCOs, and some envelopes communicate via bus (unless modified).

On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, acgenerator@att.net [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I've recently expanded to a second frame but am having trouble getting my VC source from the LFO (A-146) on one frame to come across to the destination on the other frame ( in this case A-107). Both frames work correctly, as do both modules. These modules were always on separate buses. Same problem exists with any similar patch.

My understanding of the A-185 is for establishing the connection on the BUS LEVEL. I am looking to do this with the front cables. Is this the solution?

Do I need to pass thru an attenuator such as A-183-1?

Or am I overlooking something else?

Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-01 by acgenerator@att.net

I think you are missing the issue I'm experiencing. Here is the patch:
LFO CV out (frame 1) into Filter CV in (frame 2) via the front patch panel using standard grey cable (whatever length that is)

This was a working patch when everything was on the same frame. Frame 1 is the original frame where I made the patch. I've simply moved the filter to Frame 2. Now the patch will not work. Filter works fine on the new frame without the CV source.

The problem I have is the signal is not making it there correctly. The only change in output to the filter is a hum with the CV IN plug being put in or out. When i move the LFO to frame 2, the patch works as expected. (no adjustment to settings). I've tried adjusting the knobs with the LFO / filter in separate frames in case but that does nothing.

I'm certain it is not an issue with the new frame as I can put the modules completely on either frame and not have this issue.

I stated in the original post I am not using the bus for the signal and as you stated neither module would be using it anyways. It leads me to believe A-185 is not the solution (unless I'm unclear on that module's function being bus only).

I've ruled out electromagnetic interference (rack hum) from each other as the modules work just fine in one frame or the other.

Attenuation of every cross frame patch doesn't seem the likely (or practical) solution.

As I've just outgrown frame 1 this is the first I've encounter something like this.

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-01 by Florian Anwander

Do you use original Doepfer patch cables?

This sounds like a missing ground connection between the two racks 
(which is normal!). In this case the patchcable has to provide a proper 
ground connection. Using cables with stereo-mini-jacks will not work! 
You must use cables with mono jacks on both sides.


Florian

Re: [Doepfer_a100] trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-01 by Nicholas Keller

I agree. Try a different cable. Perhaps yours has a short or is otherwise unfit. I'd be surprised if you had used the same cable for all troubleshooting, but the same type...perhaps.

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On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Florian Anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Do you use original Doepfer patch cables?

This sounds like a missing ground connection between the two racks
(which is normal!). In this case the patchcable has to provide a proper
ground connection. Using cables with stereo-mini-jacks will not work!
You must use cables with mono jacks on both sides.

Florian

Re: [Doepfer_a100] trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-01 by Patrick Schisler

Just tried a couple of cables, same results.  Most are "official Doepfer" , the rest are generic eurorack cables from a reputable source (Analogue Haven).  No 1/8" stereo cables in my set up.

Grounding could very well be a potential cause.  When I'm finish with work for the day, I'll try pulling these off the shelving to a different surface.  I'll also check for any loose wires from other systems which may be touching one of the machines /shelves in back. It's be great if this turns out to be the problem as my road cases start arriving this week. (goodbye shelving with desktop racks!)


 


     On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 9:17 AM, "Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
   

     I agree.  Try a different cable.  Perhaps yours has a short or is otherwise unfit.  I'd be surprised if you had used the same cable for all troubleshooting, but the same type...perhaps.



On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Florian Anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

     Do you use original Doepfer patch cables?

This sounds like a missing ground connection between the two racks 
(which is normal!). In this case the patchcable has to provide a proper 
ground connection. Using cables with stereo-mini-jacks will not work! 
You must use cables with mono jacks on both sides.

Florian

Re: [Doepfer_a100] trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-02 by acgenerator@att.net

as an update. Pulled the racks off the shelf and have them stacked on a plastic milk crate (isolated) with a dedicated Furman Merit series power conditioner.

Frame2 (expansion)
-----------------------------------
Top: RF Nomad, A-118, Multiples, A-119, A-119
Bottom: A-106-5, A-107, A-189-1, A-199, A-131

Frame1 (original)
---------------------------------
Top: A-178, A-175, A-146, A143-3, A-138c, A-144, A-178
Bottom: A-190 (a version prior to being called -1), A-160, A-161, +5V adapter, A-189-1,A-148, A-156

Patch set up:
RF Audio Out -> Multiples ->A: Morphing Filter -> VCA; B:-> Bit cruncher -> reverb -> VCA
Random voltage CV ->RF Nomad
LFO2 CV-> Morphing filter (frequency)

Testing:
- patches worked on the old frame as described
- Re-verified the internal wiring of the G6 power supplies to the bus boards/ground to chassis and they look correct.
- Cables are not the problem. I've tried multiple cables and they all come to matching results.
- Putting the CV from random noise triggers the desired response in the Morphing filter. Same with manual control.
- Moving the LFO2 to frame2 triggers the desired response in the Morphing filter.
- Adjusting the LFO2 rate or the attenuator in the Morphing Filter has no effect while the LFO2 is in Frame1
- Using QuadLFO or therimins as CV source instead of LFO2 nets the same results.

Still stumped on what is keeping the signals from these frames to be out of whack

Re: [Doepfer_a100] trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-02 by acgenerator@att.net

I finally got it fixed.

Here was the issue: apparently even though both both sets of boards were hooked up correctly to grounds used independently. They mismatched on the order of using the 4 ground connections.

One had Top-unsed-Chassis-Bottom; the other unused-Top-Chassis-Bottom across the ground posts.

thanks for those that helped getting me on the right track!

Re: [Doepfer_a100] trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-02 by Nicholas Keller

If I understand mains and the PSU2 correctly, the chassis is grounded to the ground prong on the power plug, while the electronics is "grounded" to the neutral prong. So each case would work separately, but not when combined.

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On Thursday, July 2, 2015, acgenerator@att.net [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I finally got it fixed.

Here was the issue: apparently even though both both sets of boards were hooked up correctly to grounds used independently. They mismatched on the order of using the 4 ground connections.

One had Top-unsed-Chassis-Bottom; the other unused-Top-Chassis-Bottom across the ground posts.

thanks for those that helped getting me on the right track!

Re: [Doepfer_a100] trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-02 by Bakis Sirros

hi,
i did not understand what the problem is exactly and what you did to fix the problem. can you please explain in detail ?i have many G6's and never had any problem with grounding.so what was the exact problem in your G6's ? 
are these 2 G6's you have, new, or where modified by a previous owner ?

thanks in advance,Bakis.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

      From: "acgenerator@att.net [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
 To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2015 5:00 AM
 Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame
   
    as an update.  Pulled the racks off the shelf and have them stacked on a plastic milk crate (isolated) with a dedicated Furman Merit series power conditioner.

Frame2 (expansion)
-----------------------------------
Top: RF Nomad, A-118, Multiples, A-119, A-119
Bottom: A-106-5, A-107, A-189-1, A-199, A-131

Frame1 (original)
---------------------------------
Top: A-178, A-175, A-146, A143-3, A-138c, A-144, A-178
Bottom: A-190 (a version prior to being called -1), A-160, A-161, +5V adapter, A-189-1,A-148, A-156

Patch set up:
RF Audio Out -> Multiples ->A: Morphing Filter -> VCA; B:-> Bit cruncher -> reverb -> VCA
Random voltage CV ->RF Nomad
LFO2 CV-> Morphing filter (frequency)


Testing:
- patches worked on the old frame as described
- Re-verified the internal wiring of the G6 power supplies to the bus boards/ground to chassis and they look correct.
- Cables are not the problem. I've tried multiple cables and they all come to matching results.
- Putting the CV from random noise triggers the desired response in the Morphing filter.  Same with manual control.
- Moving the LFO2 to frame2 triggers the desired response in the Morphing filter.
- Adjusting the LFO2 rate or the attenuator in the Morphing Filter has no effect while the LFO2 is in Frame1
- Using QuadLFO or therimins as CV source instead of LFO2 nets the same results.

Still stumped on what is keeping the signals from these frames to be out of whack  #yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881 -- #yiv4024721881ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881ygrp-mkp #yiv4024721881hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881ygrp-mkp #yiv4024721881ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881ygrp-mkp .yiv4024721881ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881ygrp-mkp .yiv4024721881ad p {margin:0;}#yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881ygrp-mkp .yiv4024721881ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881ygrp-sponsor #yiv4024721881ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881ygrp-sponsor #yiv4024721881ygrp-lc #yiv4024721881hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv4024721881 #yiv4024721881ygrp-sponsor 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Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-04 by acgenerator@att.net

in short the grounds were wired differently on each frame. The solution was to wire them identically.

Here is what they looked like before (problem state). I made them both look like the right side photo.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Doepfer_a100/photos/albums/1830938856/lightbox/448632445?orderBy=ordinal&sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/448632445

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-04 by Bakis Sirros

hi,
many thanks for the explanation. it seems weird to me that both PSU's were as they came from the factory (unmodified), but still you had a grounding issue when connecting modules from these two cases.
best regards,Bakis.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

      From: "acgenerator@att.net [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
 To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2015 10:14 AM
 Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame
   
    in short the grounds were wired differently on each frame.  The solution was to wire them identically.

Here is what they looked like before (problem state).  I made them both look like the right side photo.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Doepfer_a100/photos/albums/1830938856/lightbox/448632445?orderBy=ordinal&sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/448632445    #yiv5331477548 #yiv5331477548 -- #yiv5331477548ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv5331477548 #yiv5331477548ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv5331477548 #yiv5331477548ygrp-mkp #yiv5331477548hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv5331477548 #yiv5331477548ygrp-mkp #yiv5331477548ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv5331477548 #yiv5331477548ygrp-mkp .yiv5331477548ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv5331477548 #yiv5331477548ygrp-mkp .yiv5331477548ad p {margin:0;}#yiv5331477548 #yiv5331477548ygrp-mkp .yiv5331477548ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv5331477548 #yiv5331477548ygrp-sponsor #yiv5331477548ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv5331477548 #yiv5331477548ygrp-sponsor #yiv5331477548ygrp-lc #yiv5331477548hd {margin:10px 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Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-04 by analogmonster@ymail.com

Glad you got it working. Don't want to come across as rude but the most likely cause is not hardware but user error. Those groups of 4 spade terminals on the PSU are all connected to exactly the same point so the order you plug them in won't matter. 

It's significantly more likely that just unplugging and replugging things has meant that something that wasn't connected properly before now is connected. There is a chance his top ground spade terminal has a poor connection- a cold solder joint or something, and moving to terminal 2 provides a better connection. 

Personally, now you know you can get it working I would try switching your ground spade terminal 2 back to terminal 1 and see if the fault is still there. If it is you should get it repaired. It would be a 30 second job with a soldering iron reheating the pads on that spade terminal. If it was my PSU I would do it myself but you may prefer to send it back. But honestly I expect you will find it works just fine 

On 4 Jul 2015, at 12:29, Bakis Sirros synth_freak_2000@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

hi,

many thanks for the explanation. it seems weird to me that both PSU's were as they came from the factory (unmodified), but still you had a grounding issue when connecting modules from these two cases.

best regards,
Bakis.

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From: "acgenerator@att.net [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2015 10:14 AM
Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

in short the grounds were wired differently on each frame.  The solution was to wire them identically.

Here is what they looked like before (problem state).  I made them both look like the right side photo.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Doepfer_a100/photos/albums/1830938856/lightbox/448632445?orderBy=ordinal&sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/448632445

AW: [Doepfer_a100] Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-06 by yahoo@doepfer.de

From the theory it should make no difference because each group with the four blade terminals is connected to the same signal (-12V,
GND or +12V) because the four terminals of each group are shortened. I have no idea why wiring them identically solved the problem.
Anyway - it's good tp know that now everything is fine.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

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> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Gesendet: Samstag, 4. Juli 2015 09:14
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame
>
>
>
>
> in short the grounds were wired differently on each frame.  The solution was to wire them identically.
>
> Here is what they looked like before (problem state).  I made them both look like the right side photo.
>
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Doepfer_a100/photos/albums/1830938856/lightbox/448632445?orderBy=ordinal&sortOrder=asc
> &photoFilter=ALL#zax/448632445
>

Re: trouble with VC patching to second G6 frame

2015-07-07 by acgenerator@att.net

Not sure either. It could be that the ground connection itself was loose as the rack itself just got shipped that week. Could be a combination of factors. Next time I expand/rearrange stuff I'll see if I can test whether that post itself needs to be fixed.

I'm also glad to report it is half filled with modules already!