Homebrew PCBs

I have completed a test board which I took pictures of and posted in 
the photos section under C88 Test PCB. I think the biggest step to 
getting a good ink transfer was preheating the PCB before printing. I 
used a small heat gun my wife uses for stamping. I warmed it up to 
about 75C. With the heating I did not get any pooling of the ink 
which I had before. I believe Stephan was saying he had pooling too. 
I think this must allow some of the ink to dry before more is put on 
top.  What time of the year was Volkan printing maybe the boards were 
warmer to start with (summer)? Printing in black but with all carts 
magenta (EPSON TO603)works great. I get a very good layer of ink. 
After etching the ink still looks the same. It will not come off with 
a casual wipe with acetone but will mostly come off with continued 
scrubing with acetone. The curing is almost the same as Stephans. I 
am giving it a little more heat 240C to 245C and a little more time 5 
minutes than I did in the photos.  I have given it up to 20 minutes 
of time and it still worked fine but the epoxy was getting very 
brown. All the traces were very good with no breaks down to what 
Eagle says is .001 in. on the PCB. I'm not sure if the Epson is 
really printing that small as it is hard to measure. The photos are 
not as good as I would have liked but the light meter was not working 
in the camera and it was hard to get good light on the board when the 
macro lens was so close. I beleive that this is a very good start for 
me and I will have pictures of completed boards in the future. I will 
also post some pictures of the printer but it is very much like 
Stephans. The C88 appears to be the same as as a C84

Good Looking boards!
Congrats...

I have to make some boards in the next few days and will give it a try
with the C84/MS-PRO combo and hope I have the same fortune. I have
been playing with reducing the volume of the ink by evaporating some
of its liquid, leaving more solids to be applied. I have to admit that
I am moving slowly as I do not want to plug the head. However that
being said I have noticed an improvement as I take the volume down.
Have reduced volume by 5% so far. Hopefully with your new added step I
will not have to take my tests further!

John

>
> I have completed a test board which I took pictures of and posted in 
> the photos section under C88 Test PCB. I think the biggest step to 
> getting a good ink transfer was preheating the PCB before printing. I 
> used a small heat gun my wife uses for stamping. I warmed it up to 
> about 75C. With the heating I did not get any pooling of the ink 
> which I had before. I believe Stephan was saying he had pooling too. 
> I think this must allow some of the ink to dry before more is put on 
> top.  What time of the year was Volkan printing maybe the boards were 
> warmer to start with (summer)? Printing in black but with all carts 
> magenta (EPSON TO603)works great. I get a very good layer of ink. 
> After etching the ink still looks the same. It will not come off with 
> a casual wipe with acetone but will mostly come off with continued 
> scrubing with acetone. The curing is almost the same as Stephans. I 
> am giving it a little more heat 240C to 245C and a little more time 5 
> minutes than I did in the photos.  I have given it up to 20 minutes 
> of time and it still worked fine but the epoxy was getting very 
> brown. All the traces were very good with no breaks down to what 
> Eagle says is .001 in. on the PCB. I'm not sure if the Epson is 
> really printing that small as it is hard to measure. The photos are 
> not as good as I would have liked but the light meter was not working 
> in the camera and it was hard to get good light on the board when the 
> macro lens was so close. I beleive that this is a very good start for 
> me and I will have pictures of completed boards in the future. I will 
> also post some pictures of the printer but it is very much like 
> Stephans. The C88 appears to be the same as as a C84
>

Reducing the fluid in the ink sounds like a hard way to go. If it works good that will also be a
bonus. I had my head clog up bad after I installed the magenta ink in all the slots. It wouldn't
even print the test pattern. I tried a couple of the fixes I read about but the windex directly
through the head worked great. I filled a syringe with windex and used a peice of tubing to get it
into the nipple. I moved the head to the left and watched the windex flow out the jets. After it
worked perfect.

You were using the standard inks that can be purchased with the
printer? Have you tried the MISPRO inks?? I would like to see your
results with both inks.

There was a thread not too long ago concerning taking close pictures
of the traces. Would it be possible to obtain some, that is, if you
are not too busy. :)

Joseph

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "wnnelson0" <wnnelson@...> wrote:

>
> I have completed a test board which I took pictures of and posted in 
> the photos section under C88 Test PCB. I think the biggest step to 
> getting a good ink transfer was preheating the PCB before printing. I 
> used a small heat gun my wife uses for stamping. I warmed it up to 
> about 75C. With the heating I did not get any pooling of the ink 
> which I had before. I believe Stephan was saying he had pooling too. 
> I think this must allow some of the ink to dry before more is put on 
> top.  What time of the year was Volkan printing maybe the boards were 
> warmer to start with (summer)? Printing in black but with all carts 
> magenta (EPSON TO603)works great. I get a very good layer of ink. 
> After etching the ink still looks the same. It will not come off with 
> a casual wipe with acetone but will mostly come off with continued 
> scrubing with acetone. The curing is almost the same as Stephans. I 
> am giving it a little more heat 240C to 245C and a little more time 5 
> minutes than I did in the photos.  I have given it up to 20 minutes 
> of time and it still worked fine but the epoxy was getting very 
> brown. All the traces were very good with no breaks down to what 
> Eagle says is .001 in. on the PCB. I'm not sure if the Epson is 
> really printing that small as it is hard to measure. The photos are 
> not as good as I would have liked but the light meter was not working 
> in the camera and it was hard to get good light on the board when the 
> macro lens was so close. I beleive that this is a very good start for 
> me and I will have pictures of completed boards in the future. I will 
> also post some pictures of the printer but it is very much like 
> Stephans. The C88 appears to be the same as as a C84
>

Was this the standard Epson ink?

Interesting, I had asked the thread not too long ago what to use to
remove the ink off of cured boards and ammonia was mentioned for use
in removing the cured ink.

Joseph

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Nelson <wnnelson@...> wrote:
>
> Reducing the fluid in the ink sounds like a hard way to go. If it
works good that will also be a
> bonus. I had my head clog up bad after I installed the magenta ink
in all the slots. It wouldn't
> even print the test pattern. I tried a couple of the fixes I read
about but the windex directly
> through the head worked great. I filled a syringe with windex and
used a peice of tubing to get it
> into the nipple. I moved the head to the left and watched the windex
flow out the jets. After it
> worked perfect.
>

Good looking indeed! I ditto the dishing of congratulatory words to
wnnelson on your success.

How are you evaporating the solvent out of the ink? 

Note to all, if possible please provide details such that others may
build upon your work. This is indeed how the science community works
and, as far as I have seen, how the hacker world works as well. Kudos
to all who have tried, failed and tried again!!

Joseph


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, "jam5411" <mardock@...> wrote:

>
> Good Looking boards!
> Congrats...
> 
> I have to make some boards in the next few days and will give it a try
> with the C84/MS-PRO combo and hope I have the same fortune. I have
> been playing with reducing the volume of the ink by evaporating some
> of its liquid, leaving more solids to be applied. I have to admit that
> I am moving slowly as I do not want to plug the head. However that
> being said I have noticed an improvement as I take the volume down.
> Have reduced volume by 5% so far. Hopefully with your new added step I
> will not have to take my tests further!
> 
> John
>

Very good work indeed!
Your pictures make me eager to work on inkjet printing again ;-)
Also, it is great that you made this with another ink, not MISPRO. I  
wouldn't want to buy original epson carts (price), but it makes me hopeful  
that many more inks may be suitable.

How did you cure it? oven, hotplate, or hot air gun?

The warming of the board is a good idea, i will try it. Did you pre-etch  
the board (does not look like it on the picture)?
How did you clean it, and did you need any wetting agent (break fluid,  
glycol)?


ST


On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 05:28:08 +0100, wnnelson0 <wnnelson@...>  
wrote:

> I have completed a test board which I took pictures of and posted in
> the photos section under C88 Test PCB. I think the biggest step to
> getting a good ink transfer was preheating the PCB before printing. I
> used a small heat gun my wife uses for stamping. I warmed it up to
> about 75C. With the heating I did not get any pooling of the ink
> which I had before. I believe Stephan was saying he had pooling too.
> I think this must allow some of the ink to dry before more is put on
> top.  What time of the year was Volkan printing maybe the boards were
> warmer to start with (summer)? Printing in black but with all carts
> magenta (EPSON TO603)works great. I get a very good layer of ink.
> After etching the ink still looks the same. It will not come off with
> a casual wipe with acetone but will mostly come off with continued
> scrubing with acetone. The curing is almost the same as Stephans. I
> am giving it a little more heat 240C to 245C and a little more time 5
> minutes than I did in the photos.  I have given it up to 20 minutes
> of time and it still worked fine but the epoxy was getting very
> brown. All the traces were very good with no breaks down to what
> Eagle says is .001 in. on the PCB. I'm not sure if the Epson is
> really printing that small as it is hard to measure. The photos are
> not as good as I would have liked but the light meter was not working
> in the camera and it was hard to get good light on the board when the
> macro lens was so close. I beleive that this is a very good start for
> me and I will have pictures of completed boards in the future. I will
> also post some pictures of the printer but it is very much like
> Stephans. The C88 appears to be the same as as a C84

It seems that I missed something...
What pictures are you talking about??


*****************************************************
On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:56:16 +0100, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>  
wrote:

> Very good work indeed!
> YOUR PICTURES make me eager to work on inkjet printing again ;-)
> Also, it is great that you made this with another ink, not MISPRO. I
> wouldn't want to buy original epson carts (price), but it makes me  
> hopeful
> that many more inks may be suitable.
>
> How did you cure it? oven, hotplate, or hot air gun?
>
> The warming of the board is a good idea, i will try it. Did you pre-etch
> the board (does not look like it on the picture)?
> How did you clean it, and did you need any wetting agent (break fluid,
> glycol)?

Outstanding results!  I too may have to hack a printer and give it a 
try as well - if I only had time :-)

Chris

Yes this board was made using the standard Epson ink. This would not be cheap to do all the time
but for experimenting its what I had.

I cured the board the same way you did by heating a aluminum block. I tried the home oven but that
took too much time but was very good for keeping a constant temp. I cleaned the board only with a
gray synthetic woven sanding pad and acetone. I made sure that I scrubbed hard with the acetone to
take off all black residue that shows up. From the pad or the copper I'm not sure but I did get it
clean. There are no wetting agents on the board. I first used the hot air gun to make sure that
all the acetone was evaporated and that lead to heating it up more for the ink. This did make the
most improvement for me.

Check in the photos section of the forum under C88 Test PCB.

On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:46:48 +0100, William Nelson  
<wnnelson@...> wrote:

> I cured the board the same way you did by heating a aluminum block. I  
> tried the home oven but that
> took too much time but was very good for keeping a constant temp. I  
> cleaned the board only with a
> gray synthetic woven sanding pad and acetone. I made sure that I  
> scrubbed hard with the acetone to
> take off all black residue that shows up. From the pad or the copper I'm  
> not sure but I did get it
> clean. There are no wetting agents on the board. I first used the hot  
> air gun to make sure that
> all the acetone was evaporated and that lead to heating it up more for  
> the ink. This did make the
> most improvement for me.


Ok, thanks.
I will definitely try the preheating of the board, it sounds most  
promising.

ST

hi,
  is this epson printer you use modified like the
instructions say for the C84 model? thanks

Ken

--- wnnelson0 <wnnelson@...> wrote:

> I have completed a test board which I took pictures
> of and posted in 
> the photos section under C88 Test PCB. I think the
> biggest step to 
> getting a good ink transfer was preheating the PCB
> before printing. I 
> used a small heat gun my wife uses for stamping. I
> warmed it up to 
> about 75C. With the heating I did not get any
> pooling of the ink 
> which I had before. I believe Stephan was saying he
> had pooling too. 
> I think this must allow some of the ink to dry
> before more is put on 
> top.  What time of the year was Volkan printing
> maybe the boards were 
> warmer to start with (summer)? Printing in black but
> with all carts 
> magenta (EPSON TO603)works great. I get a very good
> layer of ink. 
> After etching the ink still looks the same. It will
> not come off with 
> a casual wipe with acetone but will mostly come off
> with continued 
> scrubing with acetone. The curing is almost the same
> as Stephans. I 
> am giving it a little more heat 240C to 245C and a
> little more time 5 
> minutes than I did in the photos.  I have given it
> up to 20 minutes 
> of time and it still worked fine but the epoxy was
> getting very 
> brown. All the traces were very good with no breaks
> down to what 
> Eagle says is .001 in. on the PCB. I'm not sure if
> the Epson is 
> really printing that small as it is hard to measure.
> The photos are 
> not as good as I would have liked but the light
> meter was not working 
> in the camera and it was hard to get good light on
> the board when the 
> macro lens was so close. I beleive that this is a
> very good start for 
> me and I will have pictures of completed boards in
> the future. I will 
> also post some pictures of the printer but it is
> very much like 
> Stephans. The C88 appears to be the same as as a C84
> 
> 



 
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Yes almost the same. I made a flat feeder path with outside rails that feed the PCB holder. No
cutting of the feeder bar required. I lifted mine up .125 in and lifted the top pressure rollers
also. I can feed the full width of the printer 8.5 inches plus and the full length also. I dont
think I'll ever make a board that big but you never know. I also put the paper sensor in the same
place. I will post some pics.

On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:30:59 +0100, William Nelson  
<wnnelson@...> wrote:

> Yes almost the same. I made a flat feeder path with outside rails that  
> feed the PCB holder. No
> cutting of the feeder bar required. I lifted mine up .125 in and lifted  
> the top pressure rollers
> also. I can feed the full width of the printer 8.5 inches plus and the  
> full length also. I dont
> think I'll ever make a board that big but you never know. I also put the  
> paper sensor in the same
> place. I will post some pics.


How did you treat the pressure rollers?
I have not yet found an ideal solution. I just cut them apart so i got a  
single roller on each end of the width. But i could not feed a PCB with  
the full width, the rollers would not lift that much. It is not a problem  
for printing on paper, and i don't think i will need a pcb that wide, but  
if you have a good solution...

What did you use as carrier (material)?

ST

I lifted the rollers up along with the print head. I cut the frame a little differently from you
so my rollers went up 1/8 along with the head.  I did have to wire them on as they are now to high
for the pressure roller to hold them in place. I'm using a piece of fiberglass perf board for the
moment as a carrier. I tape a piece of thin cardboard to it, do a print of the board, lay my board
in the correct spot and then cut the cardboard out. Now I have a perfectly shaped cutout to hold
the board without tape. This will allow me to position the board exactly in the same spot when I
do the solder mask and top component printing. This will also help when I do double sided boards.

Bill

The photos are phenomenal.  Did you do any continuity testing on the
small traces (under 5 mil)?  I'm doing a conversion of a C88 printer
with Mis Pro inks, so seeing what you've been able to accomplish has
me really fired up.  My printer is pretty heavily modified, so your
preheating experience has made me think about adding a small lamp
(40-60w) to my new infeed in order to preheat the board, kinda like an
easy bake oven.  This way you could load the board carrier and just
give it a minute or two to warm up, then hit print.

Once I get the finer details wrapped up, I'll post some pics of my
converted printer.

Nice Work!

No testing, but they all looked very solid to me. I will go out and check to be sure, but I'm
pretty darn sure they are OK. I too considered some sort of preheating arrangement, heat gun,
lamp, element under the feed table with thermostat, the list goes on. Can't do it all at once. I
will be switching to a cheaper ink soon so keep us posted.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Nelson <wnnelson@...> 
wrote:
>
> Yes almost the same. I made a flat feeder path with outside rails 
that feed the PCB holder. No
> cutting of the feeder bar required. I lifted mine up .125 in and 
lifted the top pressure rollers
> also. I can feed the full width of the printer 8.5 inches plus and 
the full length also. I dont
> think I'll ever make a board that big but you never know. I also 
put the paper sensor in the same
> place. I will post some pics.
>

May I copy one of the pictures from the "C88 Test PCB" section to 
the instruction page at
http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm ?

And if you could take some pictures of your actual conversion and 
the feed, I would also love to post those and any description of the 
process that you could offer. Especially anything that you did 
differently from the C84.

I'm really trying to spread the word on this method and provide 
a "one stop" location where people can find old, clogged or 
cosmetically damaged printers, find the inks, find the instructions 
and pictures and most importantly, find this forum. Yahoo groups 
just do not index well (try finding this forum on Google "homebrew 
PCBs" does NOT bring you here) and in fact, searching for "direct 
inject printing of PCBs" pulls up my page and then people can find 
this forum from that. So I hope I can be the "evangelist" for what 
you have here.

Sure, copy away. I do have pics of the printer I just haven't done anything with them yet. I will
I promise. Super Bowl got in the way.

I'll keep the group abreast of my progress.  I'm just amazed that you were able to get 1 mil 
traces that came out that nice.  I think that I read about 5 mil being the best that was 
previously done with consistent, reliable results.  I'm not gonna ask you to do a bunch of 
specific testing, but it would be good to know the smallest reliable trace that you're 
getting from the updated process once you have a chance to make a few more boards for 
use beyond proof of concept.

1 mil traces and inkjet printed solder mask is a hobbyist dream come true.  Using thin 
brass stock to make solder paste stencils using the same process and having a toaster 
oven set up for reflow soldering, the hobbyist could have one heck of an advanced setup 
for very little cost, all while eliminating the need for time consuming drilling to 
accomodate a bunch of through hole components.  Now you know my end goal. :)


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Nelson <wnnelson@...> wrote:
>
> No testing, but they all looked very solid to me. I will go out and check to be sure, but 
I'm
> pretty darn sure they are OK. I too considered some sort of preheating arrangement, 
heat gun,
> lamp, element under the feed table with thermostat, the list goes on. Can't do it all at 
once. I
> will be switching to a cheaper ink soon so keep us posted.
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Nelson <wnnelson@...> wrote:
>
> No testing, but they all looked very solid to me. I will go out and check to be 
sure, but I'm
> pretty darn sure they are OK. I too considered some sort of preheating 
arrangement, heat gun,
> lamp, element under the feed table with thermostat, the list goes on. Can't do it 
all at once. I
> will be switching to a cheaper ink soon so keep us posted.
>

What type of etchant are you using with magenta?
persulfates?, ferric chloride?, 
muriatic acid+peroxide?

have you tried yellow ink also?

FeCL is the only etch I've used. Yes I did try yellow but the magenta did the best with the
original Epson inks. Those first tests were with only one cart of magenta or yellow ink so maybe
with all carts full of yellow it might be good too but the magenta is working perfect for me.

Yesterday I spent a good amount of time trying several different 
inks and board temps. 

Using the C84 and Epson Magenta TO443 (Probably is not the correct 
ink) with the board heated to 75C and a cure of 235C the ink came 
off the board in the etch. Etchant was fresh HCl/H2O2 (FCl might not 
do this, but I had none). 

Also I tried a MIS Heat Transfer Yellow (HT-4-Y) this produced a 
partial resist but not workable.

I then tried the MIS yellow (MP-4-Y) we have been using with the 
heated board with good results. I made a series of 5 boards using 
this yellow from 75C to 105C all with about the same success. The 
boards are heated in the oven for several minutes to stabilize the 
temp and then removed and positioned in the printer. I am sure there 
is heat loss during the process. The great news is this board 
heating does handle the puddling effect that has been such a pain. 
The dry time for the ink is just about instantaneous on the heated 
boards as you might imagine. Seemed the higher the heat the better 
the coating of the ink.
The best board came out with .004 runs. Better than I achieved in 
the past .005.
The other interesting aspect was one of better resist with less ink 
being deposited on the board. What I did on one of the tests was to 
forget to remove the silkscreen nomenclature before I printed the 
board. The effect was a lighter application of the ink in those 
areas. I went ahead a processed the board expecting that this light 
coating would just be etched off anyway. To my surprise the 
nomenclature came out in good shape. 
I need to run more test with varying amounts of ink. Out of time 
right now...

On another suject I posted a pix of my curing oven in the "Mardock 
Projects" folder. I have enough parts to build several of these. I 
can supply some parts/boards/schematics/software(in asm) for those 
interested in converting their own. Not for profit but rather to 
help the cause...
Contact me offline j@... if interested.
John

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:59:16 +0100, jam5411 <mardock@...> wrote:

> On another suject I posted a pix of my curing oven in the "Mardock
> Projects" folder. I have enough parts to build several of these. I
> can supply some parts/boards/schematics/software(in asm) for those
> interested in converting their own. Not for profit but rather to
> help the cause...
> Contact me offline j@... if interested.
> John


it says: This album is currently empty.

> 
> it says: This album is currently empty.
>
Stefan mine says

"Unable to retrieve photo"

I have had a devil of a time trying to upload photos. Got to be me
somehow, but not quite sure what...

Give it some time and if it continues I will try another upload.

John

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:24:27 +0100, jam5411 <mardock@...> wrote:

> Stefan mine says
> "Unable to retrieve photo"
> I have had a devil of a time trying to upload photos. Got to be me
> somehow, but not quite sure what...
> Give it some time and if it continues I will try another upload.
> John


maybe put it on tinypic.com for now.

Yahoo said that other thing to me half the time too, good to see it's  
operating as usual ;-)

ST

> 
> maybe put it on tinypic.com for now.
> 
> Yahoo said that other thing to me half the time too, good to see it's  
> operating as usual ;-)
> 
> ST
>
It is on tinypic.com - Now THAT worked fine....

search oven and its the Panasonic with the "glow"

John

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:58:27 +0100, jam5411 <mardock@...> wrote:

> It is on tinypic.com - Now THAT worked fine....
> search oven and its the Panasonic with the "glow"
> John


Ok, thanks. Looks like tinypic URLs stay constant for as long as the  
picture keeps, so you can give URLs.
<http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=2dj1gub>

I plan to make something very similar. Have already put two ovens aside  
(to combine heaters into one for "more power". Also have some 2x8 LCDs  
that will fit the width of the control panel. But it will be some time  
until i get around to making software for it.

ST

I'm glad to see that preheating the board is working for others. So maybe a heating element under
the board to minimize heat lose before printing?  My infeed table is aluminum so I could heat it
fairly easy. I had problems with the Epson ink coming off in the etch until I made sure the board
was VERY clean. If I cleaned the ink off the board before etching you could see where the ink
actually made the copper cleaner in the trace areas. Unless the Epson ink does a better job I will
get away form it as it's too much moola. So keep it up with the MSI testing.

> I'm glad to see that preheating the board is working for others. So
maybe a heating element under
> the board to minimize heat lose before printing?  My infeed table is
aluminum so I could heat it
> fairly easy. I had problems with the Epson ink coming off in the
etch until I made sure the board
> was VERY clean. If I cleaned the ink off the board before etching
you could see where the ink
> actually made the copper cleaner in the trace areas. Unless the
Epson ink does a better job I will
> get away form it as it's too much moola. So keep it up with the MSI
testing.
>
Yes preheating makes a big difference. I have not given up on the
Epson Magenta yet. I really liked the way it looked after it was
applied very clean and even density. I think it applied better than
the MISPRO Yellow. And yes you make a good point board condition is
very important.
I am not sure that I am getting the board clean enough. I sand with
600 emery, wet then wipe with 90% Isopropyl Alcohol. I think next time
I will try an Acetone wipe. Also one of the things I had been doing
before you found the preheat solution was to use a surfactant to help
disperse the ink. I was still using this yesterday as a comparison to
the preheat method. Bottom line I am not sure that the boards were
fully cleaned of any remaining surfactant. I will make some more tests
hopefully in the next few days. Lots to do!

Would be nice to see some pix of your conversion, particularly the
feed system. I have not come up with a satisfactory feed system yet..

John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jam5411" <mardock@...> wrote:
>
> Yesterday I spent a good amount of time trying several different 
> inks and board temps. 
> 
> Using the C84 and Epson Magenta TO443 (Probably is not the correct 
> ink) with the board heated to 75C and a cure of 235C the ink came 
> off the board in the etch. Etchant was fresh HCl/H2O2 (FCl might not 
> do this, but I had none). 
> 
Hi, I have found that inks don't hold up too against the muratic acid/peroxide bath, 
(even sodium and ammonia persulfates)
so i switched to ferric chloride
and get really good results.
I am currently using durabrite yellow with really good etch's
Could use durabrite magenta, but the ink bunches up on the board
if not dried instantly. 
The persulfates just lift the ink off the board.
( i printed and etched a sspcb that is smaller than a dime, just for testing)
Fecl works best for direct ink printing IMHO.

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:45:41 +0100, scc_11067 <mr_cross@...>  
wrote:

> Hi, I have found that inks don't hold up too against the muratic  
> acid/peroxide bath,
> (even sodium and ammonia persulfates)
> so i switched to ferric chloride
> and get really good results.
> I am currently using durabrite yellow with really good etch's
> Could use durabrite magenta, but the ink bunches up on the board
> if not dried instantly.
> The persulfates just lift the ink off the board.
> ( i printed and etched a sspcb that is smaller than a dime, just for  
> testing)
> Fecl works best for direct ink printing IMHO.


Interesting, i compared CuCl and FeCl, using a sample PCB just cut in half  
before etching, with MISPRO yellow, and could notice no significant  
difference between the two. My CuCl was very low molarity HCl though.

ST

Hi,

I tried MISPRO photo black on its black cartridge with
Epson Photo 900. Preheating of the PCB is quite
difficult (because it cools very rapidly) and useless.
The best method is pre-etching (till to observe
bubbles on the PCB) the PCB with acid before printing.

According to my experience, FeCl3 yields better
results
than HCl + H2O2.

Still going on trials....

Best,

Bora



 
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Unless you are doing a very large board where loss of heat may be a problem, heating the board is
not "useless". I believe it causes a very rapid drying of the ink which allows more ink to be put
down with out puddling. I did notice that the last part of a long board was not as nice as the the
first part but I have found that if I keep the heat gun going until the board goes past the roller
I can get excellent results. I do think that the etching will help adhesion also. I kept a board
in FeCl for 30 minutes and had no degradation of the ink surface. The ink was softened and wiped
off easy but it still resisted fine. This is all with Epson magenta. Pure black washed off quickly
in the FeCl.

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:44:16 +0100, William Nelson  
<wnnelson@...> wrote:

> Unless you are doing a very large board where loss of heat may be a  
> problem, heating the board is
> not "useless". I believe it causes a very rapid drying of the ink which  
> allows more ink to be put
> down with out puddling. I did notice that the last part of a long board  
> was not as nice as the the
> first part but I have found that if I keep the heat gun going until the  
> board goes past the roller
> I can get excellent results. I do think that the etching will help  
> adhesion also. I kept a board
> in FeCl for 30 minutes and had no degradation of the ink surface. The  
> ink was softened and wiped
> off easy but it still resisted fine. This is all with Epson magenta.  
> Pure black washed off quickly
> in the FeCl.


Black mispro also seems inferior.

Maybe a "strip heater" of some kind would work well for preheating,  
possibly under or over the board. Or maybe some kind of flat nozzle for  
the hot air.

ST

I like the idea of the flat nozzle, I just run the small perhaps .5in round nozzle around until I
push the print button. OK so now a temp sensor that starts the print on reaching the correct temp.
Oh boy something else to make. I don't know if all the "C" models are the same (seems so) but it
doesn't start printing right away each time. Sometimes there is a big delay before print, other
times its immediate. This means I have to keep the heat on and wait.