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Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

2009-08-11 by michael tenore

Hi!

I scanned one of my recent boards to the Photo section!
This was done with HP Presentation paper and applied to the Board with a GBC H535 Laminator
Board is 4.5 x 6.5 inches .062 thick..

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/1613902738/pic/1067172535/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

The board has been etched and drilled but the toner was not stripped off yet..

I will post again when I strip the toner! You can see how nice it came out.

regards

mike..

Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

2009-08-11 by Mike Phillips

Hi Mike,

That 535 laminator has 4 rollers and can go up to 40 feet/min. I have some questions about your process. 

1) How long does it take to pass a letter size sheet of paper through lengthwise? My 310 takes 51 seconds.

2) How many passes did the board require through the laminator?

3) Any mods to the laminator?

4) Is the board double sided copper?

5) What temp did your laminator show on the LCD at the time of laminating?

6) Ever measured the roller temperatures?

Thanks!

Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I scanned one of my recent boards to the Photo section!
> This was done with HP Presentation paper and applied to the Board with a GBC H535 Laminator
> Board is 4.5 x 6.5 inches .062 thick..
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/1613902738/pic/1067172535/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
> 
> The board has been etched and drilled but the toner was not stripped off yet..
> 
> I will post again when I strip the toner! You can see how nice it came out.
> 
> regards
> 
> mike..
>

Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

2009-08-11 by Mike Phillips

I meant 40 inches per minute....

Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi Mike,
> 
> That 535 laminator has 4 rollers and can go up to 40 feet/min. I have some questions about your process. 
> 
> 1) How long does it take to pass a letter size sheet of paper through lengthwise? My 310 takes 51 seconds.
> 
> 2) How many passes did the board require through the laminator?
> 
> 3) Any mods to the laminator?
> 
> 4) Is the board double sided copper?
> 
> 5) What temp did your laminator show on the LCD at the time of laminating?
> 
> 6) Ever measured the roller temperatures?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Hi!
> > 
> > I scanned one of my recent boards to the Photo section!
> > This was done with HP Presentation paper and applied to the Board with a GBC H535 Laminator
> > Board is 4.5 x 6.5 inches .062 thick..
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/1613902738/pic/1067172535/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
> > 
> > The board has been etched and drilled but the toner was not stripped off yet..
> > 
> > I will post again when I strip the toner! You can see how nice it came out.
> > 
> > regards
> > 
> > mike..
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

2009-08-11 by michael tenore

Ok

I use the slowest speed. a full sheet takes about a minute

I used 10 -11 passes thru the laminator

the laminator is not modified

the board is single sided g-10 .062 thick 4.5x 6.5 inches  .these boards dissipate a lot of heat so more passes with  the
board being re-fed through is necessary to keep the board temp up. I have some .032 boards but I have not put them through  it yet.

My LCD says 328 degrees .I have not measured the temp as I do not have a temp probe.

regards

mike






________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 11:50:33 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

  
I meant 40 inches per minute....

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
> 
> That 535 laminator has 4 rollers and can go up to 40 feet/min. I have some questions about your process. 
> 
> 1) How long does it take to pass a letter size sheet of paper through lengthwise? My 310 takes 51 seconds.
> 
> 2) How many passes did the board require through the laminator?
> 
> 3) Any mods to the laminator?
> 
> 4) Is the board double sided copper?
> 
> 5) What temp did your laminator show on the LCD at the time of laminating?
> 
> 6) Ever measured the roller temperatures?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Hi!
> > 
> > I scanned one of my recent boards to the Photo section!
> > This was done with HP Presentation paper and applied to the Board with a GBC H535 Laminator
> > Board is 4.5 x 6.5 inches .062 thick..
> > 
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Homebrew_ PCBs/photos/ album/1613902738 /pic/1067172535/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
> > 
> > The board has been etched and drilled but the toner was not stripped off yet..
> > 
> > I will post again when I strip the toner! You can see how nice it came out.
> > 
> > regards
> > 
> > mike..
> >
>


   


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

2009-08-11 by michael tenore

I usually drill before stripping ! It makes it easier to spot center the hols when I drill with my dremel drill stand..




________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DJ Delorie <dj@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:00:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

  

Interesting question - strip toner first, or drill first?  I'd think
the burrs from the drilling would interfere with the toner removal.

   


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

2009-08-11 by Mike Phillips

Your laminator has a lot of heat capacity compared to mine. I use double sided boards that take longer to heat. Although 10 passes might render any differences a mute issue. 

My latest board is about 4 x 5. So we have about the same heat load minus one side of copper.

My Model Aviation magazine paper and the Presentation paper I've tried end up about the same quality. The magazine paper dissolves easier since it's so much thinner.

Have you ever tied any Photographic paper?

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Ok
> 
> I use the slowest speed. a full sheet takes about a minute
> 
> I used 10 -11 passes thru the laminator
> 
> the laminator is not modified
> 
> the board is single sided g-10 .062 thick 4.5x 6.5 inches  .these boards dissipate a lot of heat so more passes with  the
> board being re-fed through is necessary to keep the board temp up. I have some .032 boards but I have not put them through  it yet.
> 
> My LCD says 328 degrees .I have not measured the temp as I do not have a temp probe.
> 
> regards
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 11:50:33 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper
> 
>   
> I meant 40 inches per minute....
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> > 
> > That 535 laminator has 4 rollers and can go up to 40 feet/min. I have some questions about your process. 
> > 
> > 1) How long does it take to pass a letter size sheet of paper through lengthwise? My 310 takes 51 seconds.
> > 
> > 2) How many passes did the board require through the laminator?
> > 
> > 3) Any mods to the laminator?
> > 
> > 4) Is the board double sided copper?
> > 
> > 5) What temp did your laminator show on the LCD at the time of laminating?
> > 
> > 6) Ever measured the roller temperatures?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > Hi!
> > > 
> > > I scanned one of my recent boards to the Photo section!
> > > This was done with HP Presentation paper and applied to the Board with a GBC H535 Laminator
> > > Board is 4.5 x 6.5 inches .062 thick..
> > > 
> > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Homebrew_ PCBs/photos/ album/1613902738 /pic/1067172535/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
> > > 
> > > The board has been etched and drilled but the toner was not stripped off yet..
> > > 
> > > I will post again when I strip the toner! You can see how nice it came out.
> > > 
> > > regards
> > > 
> > > mike..
> > >
> >
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

2009-08-11 by michael tenore

Yes! I have used Staples photo basic gloss works well also bu it is harder to get off than the HP paper




________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:44:47 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

  
Your laminator has a lot of heat capacity compared to mine. I use double sided boards that take longer to heat. Although 10 passes might render any differences a mute issue. 

My latest board is about 4 x 5. So we have about the same heat load minus one side of copper.

My Model Aviation magazine paper and the Presentation paper I've tried end up about the same quality. The magazine paper dissolves easier since it's so much thinner.

Have you ever tied any Photographic paper?

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@...> wrote:
>
> Ok
> 
> I use the slowest speed. a full sheet takes about a minute
> 
> I used 10 -11 passes thru the laminator
> 
> the laminator is not modified
> 
> the board is single sided g-10 .062 thick 4.5x 6.5 inches  .these boards dissipate a lot of heat so more passes with  the
> board being re-fed through is necessary to keep the board temp up. I have some .032 boards but I have not put them through  it yet.
> 
> My LCD says 328 degrees .I have not measured the temp as I do not have a temp probe.
> 
> regards
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@ ...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 11:50:33 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper
> 
> 
> I meant 40 inches per minute....
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> > 
> > That 535 laminator has 4 rollers and can go up to 40 feet/min. I have some questions about your process. 
> > 
> > 1) How long does it take to pass a letter size sheet of paper through lengthwise? My 310 takes 51 seconds.
> > 
> > 2) How many passes did the board require through the laminator?
> > 
> > 3) Any mods to the laminator?
> > 
> > 4) Is the board double sided copper?
> > 
> > 5) What temp did your laminator show on the LCD at the time of laminating?
> > 
> > 6) Ever measured the roller temperatures?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > Hi!
> > > 
> > > I scanned one of my recent boards to the Photo section!
> > > This was done with HP Presentation paper and applied to the Board with a GBC H535 Laminator
> > > Board is 4.5 x 6.5 inches .062 thick..
> > > 
> > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Homebrew_ PCBs/photos/ album/1613902738 /pic/1067172535/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
> > > 
> > > The board has been etched and drilled but the toner was not stripped off yet..
> > > 
> > > I will post again when I strip the toner! You can see how nice it came out.
> > > 
> > > regards
> > > 
> > > mike..
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


   


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-14 by William Alford

http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/

William Alford

GI Motility Medical Research Page
http://alford.grimtrojan.com/  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Picture of board done with HP presentation paper

2009-08-14 by sailingto

I usually drill a few holes before etching to allow getting the backside lined up good (on double sided boards), then drill all the other thru holes after etching.  I leave a small "etched" space in the center of each pad that will have a hole drilled - this seems to help center the drill point for drilling.

73 de Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I usually drill before stripping ! It makes it easier to spot center the hols when I drill with my dremel drill stand..
>
> ________________________________
> From: DJ Delorie <dj@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:00:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Picture of board done with HP presentation paper
> 
 
> Interesting question - strip toner first, or drill first?  I'd think
> the burrs from the drilling would interfere with the toner removal.

Re: instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-14 by roycepipkins

The article doesn't say it, but the extreme speed only works with 1/2 oz boards. I tested the method on my 1 oz copper and found that it shaved only a few minutes off the etch time for a *whole lot* more work in scrubbing than just watching the boards agitate.

For 1 oz copper, I found that the increased work overshadowed the minor speed increase for a net negative experience.

Regards,
Royce


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Alford <walford@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/
> 
> William Alford
> 
> GI Motility Medical Research Page
> http://alford.grimtrojan.com/  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-14 by DJ Delorie

William Alford <walford@...> writes:
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/

Yup, this is the standard Pulsar method (as noted in the
instructable), and the whole reason behind the Green TRF.  With
preheated FeCl, a sponge, and 1/2oz copper, I can etch a board in
about 45 seconds.  You can also focus on underetched parts so you
don't have to overetch elsewhere to get good results.

My way was to half fill a 1 gal bucket with hot tap water, slightly
loosen the cap on the FeCl bottle (to allow for air expansion), and
put the bottle in the bucket.  By the time I'm done putting the resist
on, the FeCl is hot, and I pour it into my usual etch tray.  I then
hold the board over the tray and dip the sponge into the etchant, wipe
a few times, dip, wipe (not scrub!), etc.  The dipping replaces the
used etchant with fresh etchant, and keeps the sponge warm.

Re: instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-14 by Mike Phillips

Great info DJ, thanks! 

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> William Alford <walford@...> writes:
> > http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/
> 
> Yup, this is the standard Pulsar method (as noted in the
> instructable), and the whole reason behind the Green TRF.  With
> preheated FeCl, a sponge, and 1/2oz copper, I can etch a board in
> about 45 seconds.  You can also focus on underetched parts so you
> don't have to overetch elsewhere to get good results.
> 
> My way was to half fill a 1 gal bucket with hot tap water, slightly
> loosen the cap on the FeCl bottle (to allow for air expansion), and
> put the bottle in the bucket.  By the time I'm done putting the resist
> on, the FeCl is hot, and I pour it into my usual etch tray.  I then
> hold the board over the tray and dip the sponge into the etchant, wipe
> a few times, dip, wipe (not scrub!), etc.  The dipping replaces the
> used etchant with fresh etchant, and keeps the sponge warm.
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-14 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Has anyone tried this method for chemical machining. I am making some encoder disks for the digital DC servos I am building and was going to use conventional dip FeCl bath. Is the undercutting any less?



--- On Fri, 8/14/09, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DJ Delorie <dj@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 4:17 PM






 




    
                  

William Alford <walford@dbtech. net> writes:

> http://www.instruct ables.com/ id/Sponge- Ferric-Chloride- Method-Etch- Circuit-Bo/



Yup, this is the standard Pulsar method (as noted in the

instructable) , and the whole reason behind the Green TRF.  With

preheated FeCl, a sponge, and 1/2oz copper, I can etch a board in

about 45 seconds.  You can also focus on underetched parts so you

don't have to overetch elsewhere to get good results.



My way was to half fill a 1 gal bucket with hot tap water, slightly

loosen the cap on the FeCl bottle (to allow for air expansion), and

put the bottle in the bucket.  By the time I'm done putting the resist

on, the FeCl is hot, and I pour it into my usual etch tray.  I then

hold the board over the tray and dip the sponge into the etchant, wipe

a few times, dip, wipe (not scrub!), etc.  The dipping replaces the

used etchant with fresh etchant, and keeps the sponge warm.


 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-14 by Kim Vellore

Wondering why this would be faster than dipping the board in FeCl

Kim
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Alford <walford@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/
>>
>> William Alford
>>
>> GI Motility Medical Research Page
>> http://alford.grimtrojan.com/
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-14 by DJ Delorie

"Kim Vellore" <kimvellore@...> writes:
> Wondering why this would be faster than dipping the board in FeCl

Read the Pulsar site for the full details, but basically, the key is
that the "spent" FeCl is quickly replaced by "fresh" FeCl at the
copper surface.  You get similar results with spray etching, for the
same reason.

When FeCl hits copper, it quickly reacts - but leaves the spent FeCl
there, blocking further reaction.  The faster you can get the spent
FeCl away from the copper, the faster the etch goes.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-14 by DJ Delorie

Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...> writes:
> Has anyone tried this method for chemical machining. I am making
> some encoder disks for the digital DC servos I am building and was
> going to use conventional dip FeCl bath. Is the undercutting any
> less?

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/brass/

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-15 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Thanks for the link, so the speed is determined by presenting fresh etchant continuously. Any thoughts on what affects the undercutting? 



--- On Fri, 8/14/09, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 6:10 PM






 




    
                  

Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@ yahoo.com> writes:

> Has anyone tried this method for chemical machining. I am making

> some encoder disks for the digital DC servos I am building and was

> going to use conventional dip FeCl bath. Is the undercutting any

> less?



http://www.delorie. com/pcb/brass/


 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-15 by Adam Seychell

Kim Vellore wrote:
>  
> 
> Wondering why this would be faster than dipping the board in FeCl
> 
> Kim

Unlike persulfates, the FeCl3 and CuCl2 etch reactions produce 
relatively insoluble copper(I) chloride at the surface, which acts as a 
barrier for further etching. Because its a precipitate (as opposed to 
ions), it doesn't easily diffuse into the bulk solution. You can see 
this copper(I) chloride as streaks of white solid when you pull the 
copper out of etchant and hold it for 30 seconds.

 From my experience, I found there isn't much speed improvement between 
decent bubble assisted agitation and manual brushing the PCB surface.

Adam

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-16 by DJ Delorie

Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...> writes:
> Thanks for the link, so the speed is determined by presenting fresh
> etchant continuously. Any thoughts on what affects the undercutting?

Well, the metal is 2 mil thick, so you get 2 mil of undercutting.
Once you've started etching through, the sides of the hole are exposed
to etchant also.

I suspect undercutting can be reduced by preferentially etching
through rather than aside, such as a spray etcher or a float etch,
which simply removes the spent etchant in "that" direction more than
in the "other" directions.

Etching from both sides can, of course, cut undercutting in half.  If
you can align the two masks properly.

Re: instructables 1 min PC etch using sponge & FeCl

2009-08-17 by Steve

Please start a new thread by starting a new message. When you try to start a thread by replying to another message, even when you delete everything visible from the old, it still contains unseen info that Yahoogroups links to the other thread.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/23392

Steve Greenfield
your friendly neighborhood moderator

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Alford <walford@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/
> 
> William Alford
> 
> GI Motility Medical Research Page
> http://alford.grimtrojan.com/  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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