QTR-Quadtone RIP

After spending a collective total of (probably) over 50 hours trying
to get Quadtone RIP to work for me, I'm effectively throwing in the
towel. I guess this technology is simply beyond me. Kindly forgive the
drama. It's the voice of frustration.

Some background Information:

I'm on a Mac - OSX 10.5 using an Epson 3800, own a T/R densitometer,
and printing to Pictorico/Inkpress white film (OHP) (for digital
negatives). I first came across QTR a few months back. I was
intrigued, but never quote took to it as the documentation was, at
best, "non-linear" and at worst, just plain confusing. In the last
couple of weeks I figured I'd try my hand at it. I've read every shred
of information I could get my hands on. Everything from Ron Reeder's
site, some other documents/tutorials I came across, stuff posted on
this forum, and the list goes on. Things just don't add up. 

In a nutshell - I simply do not understand the concepts involved in
calibrating, linearizing and/or otherwise making good use of this
technology. I have no idea how to "interpret" the ink-distribution
file and everything I've come across seems to skip steps. I had a
college professor like that some 10 years back. That didn't work out
either, sadly. But as is the case here, I don't seem to be alone in my
frustration.

Would/Could someone take the time to explain how to use this gizmo,
step-by-step, as if you were talking to a four year old? (figuratively).

The questions are endless...

- Does QuadTone RIP print greyscale images using color just by virtue
of selecting the appropriate profile from the drop-down list within
the print dialogue? 

I ask because I'd like to take advantage of printing greyscale digital
negatives in all available colors as it would undoubtedly eliminate
the "holes".

- One document I read (I forget the title, but I'm sure folks here
will recognize what I'm referring to) says to measure patches off of
the calibration print (InkSeparation8.tif) to see where "one ink
leaves off and the other can pick up". How does that work in practical
terms? Where/how do you "indicate" this in the profile text file?
Also, ink density (in my experience/experimentation) isn't always
proportionate to "blocking power". I would think that to be part of
the point of using multiple colors as each has it's own blocking
properties. 

- What's the difference between using 2-greys vs. all 8-greys? 

- What is the concept of linearizing as pertains to QTR? What's the
difference between that and the "Grey Curve" setting?

Anyways... As you can see. I have bits & pieces in my head but
absolutely nothing cohesive (heh.. probably in more ways then QTR!).
But from what I've come across in my research, I'm certainly not
alone. I know I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box but I've read
posts (both here and on HybridPhoto.com) from folks with Physics and
Engineering degrees that found the information difficult to understand.

Is there any hope? I mean.. Obviously this isn't just a simple
question I'm asking. If anyone would be kind enough to take the time,
I'm glad to do this by telephone (if that would make things easier)
and save a whole lot of typing.

As far as self-help goes, I've certainly done my homework and I'm at
the end of the line. And yes, I've read whatever was relevant in the
Docs section of this group.

Please forgive the frustrated tone, no offense is intended. I'm at a
point where I either delete this thing or bang my head against the wall!

Thanks for whatever comes!

Daniel

-

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "emulsion4ever" <emulsion4ever@...> wrote:
>
> After spending a collective total of (probably) over 50 hours trying
> to get Quadtone RIP to work for me, I'm effectively throwing in the
> towel.

Digital Negs in only 50 hours!  Figure another 50 but you might want to make some 
prints along the way;)

In all seriousness QTR can do what you want it to do but you'll probably want to start 
from the ground up.  Part of the documentation problem is that QTR can do so many 
things and once you get to each new level you're so busy printing you don't really want to 
take time to pass on your learning curve.

I'd start by simply making some prints with QTR, your 3800 and some EEM ( or whatever 
Epson is calling their premium matte paper these days--ultra premium presentation paper 
matte, I think it is.)  You can find all the necessary stuff in the 3800-UC folder that allows 
you to print through cool, neutral, sepia and warm profiles.  Play with the sliders that 
allow you to mix the profiles.  Essentially just work with the front end that shows up when 
you print through the Print Command in Photoshop.

Use the Basic Tutorial manual for this:

http://www.quadtonerip.com/Tutorial.pdf 

Then when you feel comfortable using the base program find another matte paper that 
you like and profile that.  You'll have the EEM profiles to compare it with so you can't get 
to far off base.  You will have to root around a bit to gather up current information.  One 
problem is that there are lots of tutorials around that refer to lots of old versions and 
many things have changed, mostly for the better and ease of use.  Then, when you are 
comfortable profiling a new paper using an existing paper as a guide you'll be a lot more 
comfortable applying that knowledge when you have to start thinking in reverse for the 
negatives.

Put all the top level stuff on hold for a while: things like increasing tonal smoothnesss and 
density for negatives by using multi color inks, and so forth.  Work on just making a 
decent monotone inkjet print with existing profiles.  Then learn to profile a new paper.  
Then play with negatives and work on a simple 21 step greyscale for the process you 
want to eventually use.  Then you can go all out and choreograph individual inks to do 
anything you want.

If you gotta see an alt process print tomorrow search this list and you can probably find a 
pro to do one up for you. 


Good luck!

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the tip. Inkjet prints really aren't my thing. I can't
imagine it to be that difficult to create a custom profile. My
impression so far is just, well.. as you said, the documentation is
very obscure. 

When you see what you can do with digital negatives (and I'm not
talking just Pt/Pd or SG prints) you'll probably forget all about the
inkjet - Of course, this is very subjective.

For the time being I'm gonna be looking for some resources. A steer in
the right direction would be helpful. What did you mean by "finding a
pro"?


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake"
<robert49brake@...> wrote:
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "emulsion4ever" <emulsion4ever@>
wrote:
> >
> > After spending a collective total of (probably) over 50 hours trying
> > to get Quadtone RIP to work for me, I'm effectively throwing in the
> > towel.
> 
> Digital Negs in only 50 hours!  Figure another 50 but you might want
to make some 
> prints along the way;)
> 
> In all seriousness QTR can do what you want it to do but you'll
probably want to start 
> from the ground up.  Part of the documentation problem is that QTR
can do so many 
> things and once you get to each new level you're so busy printing
you don't really want to 
> take time to pass on your learning curve.
> 
> I'd start by simply making some prints with QTR, your 3800 and some
EEM ( or whatever 
> Epson is calling their premium matte paper these days--ultra premium
presentation paper 
> matte, I think it is.)  You can find all the necessary stuff in the
3800-UC folder that allows 
> you to print through cool, neutral, sepia and warm profiles.  Play
with the sliders that 
> allow you to mix the profiles.  Essentially just work with the front
end that shows up when 
> you print through the Print Command in Photoshop.
> 
> Use the Basic Tutorial manual for this:
> 
> http://www.quadtonerip.com/Tutorial.pdf 
> 
> Then when you feel comfortable using the base program find another
matte paper that 
> you like and profile that.  You'll have the EEM profiles to compare
it with so you can't get 
> to far off base.  You will have to root around a bit to gather up
current information.  One 
> problem is that there are lots of tutorials around that refer to
lots of old versions and 
> many things have changed, mostly for the better and ease of use. 
Then, when you are 
> comfortable profiling a new paper using an existing paper as a guide
you'll be a lot more 
> comfortable applying that knowledge when you have to start thinking
in reverse for the 
> negatives.
> 
> Put all the top level stuff on hold for a while: things like
increasing tonal smoothnesss and 
> density for negatives by using multi color inks, and so forth.  Work
on just making a 
> decent monotone inkjet print with existing profiles.  Then learn to
profile a new paper.  
> Then play with negatives and work on a simple 21 step greyscale for
the process you 
> want to eventually use.  Then you can go all out and choreograph
individual inks to do 
> anything you want.
> 
> If you gotta see an alt process print tomorrow search this list and
you can probably find a 

> pro to do one up for you. 
> 
> 
> Good luck!
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "emulsion4ever" <emulsion4ever@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the tip. Inkjet prints really aren't my thing. I can't
> imagine it to be that difficult to create a custom profile. My
> impression so far is just, well.. as you said, the documentation is
> very obscure. 

QTR was written specifically for good b&w from Epson inkjets and over-the-counter inksets.  The documentation that is out there has evolved 
primarily toward that end.  As A RIP QTR is capable of much, much  more and at the price is pretty incredible, so, many others have adapted 
its advanced capabilities to their own workflows.  My own experience with custom profiles is that you could easily work up a semester long 
course on any one of a half a dozen areas of interest with QTRs capabilities.  That capability plus its low price is why you find mention of it all 
over the web.
 
> When you see what you can do with digital negatives (and I'm not
> talking just Pt/Pd or SG prints) you'll probably forget all about the
> inkjet - Of course, this is very subjective.

Doing 8x10 silver contacts with digitally processed negs has been on my list of things to do for a couple of years now.  Finding the time to do 
it is just as illusive now as it was two years ago.  I had set aside two months this winter for that exploration and just yesterday gave it up when 
an old friend asked me to help them out by working that two months on a problem project of theirs, but that is my particular problem;)

> For the time being I'm gonna be looking for some resources. A steer in
> the right direction would be helpful. What did you mean by "finding a
> pro"?

From your first post you've probably found all the web based resources out there.  There are a number of professional printers that contribute 
to this forum that run printshops, hold workshops,  etc.  Read some back posts here and in DigitalBlack&WhitethePrint, (QTR got its start there 
about six or seven years ago) and you'll find a number of them.  (Adding a signature with your website/professional contact info is perfectly 
acceptable here, so there are lots of websites you can visit)  You can probably find someone in your area offering workshops in Digital Negs.  I 
personally am of a bent where finding the solution is just as much fun as the solution so I don't tend toward workshops but I understand 
people who do invest a lot of their time into creating a workflow and then are willing to share that in workshops.   You mentioned the Hybrid 
forum in your first post.  You may find someone there doing workshops but when I visited there it looked to be mostly working artists.   

As for a cookbook approach outside of workshops to making digital negs with QTR or any of the other advanced capabilities of QTR you've got 
to rely mostly on tutorials presented by others that were probably written as self organizing guides written when those people were 
discovering their own workflows.

This probably isn't what you're looking for but it's what I found when doing my own search. 

Again, Good luck!

Hi Daniel!

Do you still need help?

I am on the way too to create my curves and perhaps I can help you a
little bit...

CU

Peter

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "emulsion4ever"
<emulsion4ever@...> wrote:

>
> After spending a collective total of (probably) over 50 hours trying
> to get Quadtone RIP to work for me, I'm effectively throwing in the
> towel. I guess this technology is simply beyond me. Kindly forgive the
> drama. It's the voice of frustration.
> 
> Some background Information:
> 
> I'm on a Mac - OSX 10.5 using an Epson 3800, own a T/R densitometer,
> and printing to Pictorico/Inkpress white film (OHP) (for digital
> negatives). I first came across QTR a few months back. I was
> intrigued, but never quote took to it as the documentation was, at
> best, "non-linear" and at worst, just plain confusing. In the last
> couple of weeks I figured I'd try my hand at it. I've read every shred
> of information I could get my hands on. Everything from Ron Reeder's
> site, some other documents/tutorials I came across, stuff posted on
> this forum, and the list goes on. Things just don't add up. 
> 
> In a nutshell - I simply do not understand the concepts involved in
> calibrating, linearizing and/or otherwise making good use of this
> technology. I have no idea how to "interpret" the ink-distribution
> file and everything I've come across seems to skip steps. I had a
> college professor like that some 10 years back. That didn't work out
> either, sadly. But as is the case here, I don't seem to be alone in my
> frustration.
> 
> Would/Could someone take the time to explain how to use this gizmo,
> step-by-step, as if you were talking to a four year old? (figuratively).
> 
> The questions are endless...
> 
> - Does QuadTone RIP print greyscale images using color just by virtue
> of selecting the appropriate profile from the drop-down list within
> the print dialogue? 
> 
> I ask because I'd like to take advantage of printing greyscale digital
> negatives in all available colors as it would undoubtedly eliminate
> the "holes".
> 
> - One document I read (I forget the title, but I'm sure folks here
> will recognize what I'm referring to) says to measure patches off of
> the calibration print (InkSeparation8.tif) to see where "one ink
> leaves off and the other can pick up". How does that work in practical
> terms? Where/how do you "indicate" this in the profile text file?
> Also, ink density (in my experience/experimentation) isn't always
> proportionate to "blocking power". I would think that to be part of
> the point of using multiple colors as each has it's own blocking
> properties. 
> 
> - What's the difference between using 2-greys vs. all 8-greys? 
> 
> - What is the concept of linearizing as pertains to QTR? What's the
> difference between that and the "Grey Curve" setting?
> 
> Anyways... As you can see. I have bits & pieces in my head but
> absolutely nothing cohesive (heh.. probably in more ways then QTR!).
> But from what I've come across in my research, I'm certainly not
> alone. I know I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box but I've read
> posts (both here and on HybridPhoto.com) from folks with Physics and
> Engineering degrees that found the information difficult to understand.
> 
> Is there any hope? I mean.. Obviously this isn't just a simple
> question I'm asking. If anyone would be kind enough to take the time,
> I'm glad to do this by telephone (if that would make things easier)
> and save a whole lot of typing.
> 
> As far as self-help goes, I've certainly done my homework and I'm at
> the end of the line. And yes, I've read whatever was relevant in the
> Docs section of this group.
> 
> Please forgive the frustrated tone, no offense is intended. I'm at a
> point where I either delete this thing or bang my head against the wall!
> 
> Thanks for whatever comes!
> 
> Daniel
> 
> -
>

Peter,

Absolutely! Will take whatever I can get! :)

Email or phone, which works best. Posting to this forum is fine to. In
fact, to make this quest a bit less ambiguous, I'm going to spend some
time tonight posting very specific questions about the process, and
referencing a document created by Ron Reeder in July 2008.

Will certainly be looking forward to making progress. I'm sure others
stand to benefit as well.

- Daniel

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "grayscale2008" <pm2003@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel!
> 
> Do you still need help?
> 
> I am on the way too to create my curves and perhaps I can help you a
> little bit...
> 
> CU
> 
> Peter
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "emulsion4ever"
> <emulsion4ever@> wrote:
> >
> > After spending a collective total of (probably) over 50 hours trying
> > to get Quadtone RIP to work for me, I'm effectively throwing in the
> > towel. I guess this technology is simply beyond me. Kindly forgive the
> > drama. It's the voice of frustration.
> > 
> > Some background Information:
> > 
> > I'm on a Mac - OSX 10.5 using an Epson 3800, own a T/R densitometer,
> > and printing to Pictorico/Inkpress white film (OHP) (for digital
> > negatives). I first came across QTR a few months back. I was
> > intrigued, but never quote took to it as the documentation was, at
> > best, "non-linear" and at worst, just plain confusing. In the last
> > couple of weeks I figured I'd try my hand at it. I've read every shred
> > of information I could get my hands on. Everything from Ron Reeder's
> > site, some other documents/tutorials I came across, stuff posted on
> > this forum, and the list goes on. Things just don't add up. 
> > 
> > In a nutshell - I simply do not understand the concepts involved in
> > calibrating, linearizing and/or otherwise making good use of this
> > technology. I have no idea how to "interpret" the ink-distribution
> > file and everything I've come across seems to skip steps. I had a
> > college professor like that some 10 years back. That didn't work out
> > either, sadly. But as is the case here, I don't seem to be alone in my
> > frustration.
> > 
> > Would/Could someone take the time to explain how to use this gizmo,
> > step-by-step, as if you were talking to a four year old?
(figuratively).
> > 
> > The questions are endless...
> > 
> > - Does QuadTone RIP print greyscale images using color just by virtue
> > of selecting the appropriate profile from the drop-down list within
> > the print dialogue? 
> > 
> > I ask because I'd like to take advantage of printing greyscale digital
> > negatives in all available colors as it would undoubtedly eliminate
> > the "holes".
> > 
> > - One document I read (I forget the title, but I'm sure folks here
> > will recognize what I'm referring to) says to measure patches off of
> > the calibration print (InkSeparation8.tif) to see where "one ink
> > leaves off and the other can pick up". How does that work in practical
> > terms? Where/how do you "indicate" this in the profile text file?
> > Also, ink density (in my experience/experimentation) isn't always
> > proportionate to "blocking power". I would think that to be part of
> > the point of using multiple colors as each has it's own blocking
> > properties. 
> > 
> > - What's the difference between using 2-greys vs. all 8-greys? 
> > 
> > - What is the concept of linearizing as pertains to QTR? What's the
> > difference between that and the "Grey Curve" setting?
> > 
> > Anyways... As you can see. I have bits & pieces in my head but
> > absolutely nothing cohesive (heh.. probably in more ways then QTR!).
> > But from what I've come across in my research, I'm certainly not
> > alone. I know I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box but I've read
> > posts (both here and on HybridPhoto.com) from folks with Physics and
> > Engineering degrees that found the information difficult to
understand.
> > 
> > Is there any hope? I mean.. Obviously this isn't just a simple
> > question I'm asking. If anyone would be kind enough to take the time,
> > I'm glad to do this by telephone (if that would make things easier)
> > and save a whole lot of typing.
> > 
> > As far as self-help goes, I've certainly done my homework and I'm at
> > the end of the line. And yes, I've read whatever was relevant in the
> > Docs section of this group.
> > 
> > Please forgive the frustrated tone, no offense is intended. I'm at a
> > point where I either delete this thing or bang my head against the
wall!

> > 
> > Thanks for whatever comes!
> > 
> > Daniel
> > 
> > -
> >
>

Rob,

Yep, you pretty much sum'd up my experience. It's been a difficult run.
Problem is, inkjet profiling really isn't the layman's strong point - as
I've come to learn! heh

I've actually taken up your original suggestion by contacting Steven
Schaub. A very nice guy and owner of Indian Hill Imageworks in VT. This
guy knows printing better then anyone I've ever ecountered (and yes,
that IS saying a lot!).

I'll probably book some time with him. Not really a "workshop" per say,
more like random per-use consulting. Yes, I'm pretty hell-bent on
getting this right. And when I do (that's right, not "if" but "when"),
I'll probably put together a document describing my workflow in detail
so that others could be spared  endless nights of toil and frustration
(as pertains to printing at least! heh).

A saying pops into my head - "dividing up the hide of a bear that's
still roaming the forest". Or was that counting chickens that haven't
hatched yet? Oh well.. Whichever.

I'll be posting some specific questions about profiling QTR in the hopes
of bringing this thread more in line with a "specific issue" rather then
my own general rant.

Stay tuned....



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "emulsion4ever" emulsion4ever@
wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the tip. Inkjet prints really aren't my thing. I can't
> > imagine it to be that difficult to create a custom profile. My
> > impression so far is just, well.. as you said, the documentation is
> > very obscure.
>
> QTR was written specifically for good b&w from Epson inkjets and
over-the-counter inksets.  The documentation that is out there has
evolved
> primarily toward that end.  As A RIP QTR is capable of much, much 
more and at the price is pretty incredible, so, many others have adapted
> its advanced capabilities to their own workflows.  My own experience
with custom profiles is that you could easily work up a semester long
> course on any one of a half a dozen areas of interest with QTRs
capabilities.  That capability plus its low price is why you find
mention of it all
> over the web.
>
> > When you see what you can do with digital negatives (and I'm not
> > talking just Pt/Pd or SG prints) you'll probably forget all about
the
> > inkjet - Of course, this is very subjective.
>
> Doing 8x10 silver contacts with digitally processed negs has been on
my list of things to do for a couple of years now.  Finding the time to
do
> it is just as illusive now as it was two years ago.  I had set aside
two months this winter for that exploration and just yesterday gave it
up when
> an old friend asked me to help them out by working that two months on
a problem project of theirs, but that is my particular problem;)
>
> > For the time being I'm gonna be looking for some resources. A steer
in
> > the right direction would be helpful. What did you mean by "finding
a
> > pro"?
>
> From your first post you've probably found all the web based resources
out there.  There are a number of professional printers that contribute
> to this forum that run printshops, hold workshops,  etc.  Read some
back posts here and in DigitalBlack&WhitethePrint, (QTR got its start
there
> about six or seven years ago) and you'll find a number of them. 
(Adding a signature with your website/professional contact info is
perfectly
> acceptable here, so there are lots of websites you can visit)  You can
probably find someone in your area offering workshops in Digital Negs. 
I
> personally am of a bent where finding the solution is just as much fun
as the solution so I don't tend toward workshops but I understand
> people who do invest a lot of their time into creating a workflow and
then are willing to share that in workshops.   You mentioned the Hybrid
> forum in your first post.  You may find someone there doing workshops
but when I visited there it looked to be mostly working artists.
>
> As for a cookbook approach outside of workshops to making digital negs
with QTR or any of the other advanced capabilities of QTR you've got
> to rely mostly on tutorials presented by others that were probably
written as self organizing guides written when those people were
> discovering their own workflows.
>
> This probably isn't what you're looking for but it's what I found when
doing my own search.

>
> Again, Good luck!
>