Analogue-sequencer

Hi Folks,

a bit off topic, but maybe you can help.

I had the idea of arranging some of my tracks that I did with the P3
in my sequencer Cubas SX. So i recorded the midi out of the P3 into my
computer, quantized everything, and was really shocked when i played
back the track from Cubase. It "felt" completely different. Well you
couldn't really hear timing problems, but it wasn't by far as tight as
when I play it with the P3. So i started to measure. First I played
the song with the P3, all 8 Tracks running, but i recorded only one
track with a clap on every Quarter Note. Then I compared Bar 1 to Bar
2 in this way: in CoolEdit I arranged the two bars on two tracks, and
made sure, that the first Clap of Bar1 and the first Clap of Bar2
where exact on each other with no offset. Then I measured the
deviation of the other three Claps, and they had a maximum offset of
0,5 ms between each other.   
 
Then I did the same with the song played back by Cubase SX. And I
measured offsets between 1,5 ms and up to 4 ms. 

You might say, that this is beyond a noticeable difference, but when
you have a lot of drum stuff going on, you really can feel the
difference when you compare it to the output of the P3. (Or at least I
believe that i can feel it, although i did no blind test)

Now this really drives me cracy. 

Mybe I'm not using the right environment? I'm using Windows 2000 (SP4)
with directx 9.0c and Cubase SX. I read somewhere that WindowsXP and
Cubase SX3 should be ways better. Anyone with experience about that?

Or another solution might be the Midex8 with that strange LTB Method.
But they doesn't seem to sell it anymore? Why? Are all Midi Timing
Problems solved with WinXP, or is it just because noone cares anymore?

At the moment I really think about just rehearsing more with the P3
and just using the Laptop as a 8-Track recorder, and forget about
arranging with the Computer. If only I had more then two hands, so
that I could do more than tweak two knobs of my Nord Modular.

If anyone knows a solution to this Windows Timing stuff, please let me
know.

Best wishes and once again: thanx Colin for this wonderful P3.
Stoffel

> I export the file to .MID and import that into my MC-909, which is 
tight as
> hell. 

My RM1X is tight as a gnat's chuff as well.
You can't beat hardware sequencers !!!!


But there are a few windows tricks to try with XP.
Have you given configured XP to give priority to "background services", 
That will ensure that interrupt services like midi drivers are given a 
higher priority than time wasting stuff like flashy graphical front-
ends.

Actually that reminds me ... you'll find out how to do the above and 
more on here.
http://www.musicxp.net/tuning_tips.php


Dave

On 4/18/06, Stoffel <chr.stoffel@uni-koeln.de> wrote:
>
> If anyone knows a solution to this Windows Timing stuff, please let me
> know.


Yes. Stop using a computer-based sequencer. : )

I use Live to arrange and tweak things I record (MIDI) live, but then I
export the file to .MID and import that into my MC-909, which is tight as
hell. Then I record audio into the computer (usually just two tracks). This
way, there are no sloppy timing issues, and I don't have to mess around
trying to measure how badly my computer is destroying my music. : )

- Fred


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Something else to try:  Let a hardware box (P3 or a drum machine) be the 
MIDI master device, and cubase as a slave.   The timing will be better, but 
probably still not perfect.

Dave


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stoffel" <chr.stoffel@uni-koeln.de>
To: <analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:50 PM
Subject: [analogue-sequencer] OT: Windows Midi Timing


> Hi Folks,
>
> a bit off topic, but maybe you can help.
>
> I had the idea of arranging some of my tracks that I did with the P3
> in my sequencer Cubas SX. So i recorded the midi out of the P3 into my
> computer, quantized everything, and was really shocked when i played
> back the track from Cubase. It "felt" completely different. Well you
> couldn't really hear timing problems, but it wasn't by far as tight as
> when I play it with the P3. So i started to measure. First I played
> the song with the P3, all 8 Tracks running, but i recorded only one
> track with a clap on every Quarter Note. Then I compared Bar 1 to Bar
> 2 in this way: in CoolEdit I arranged the two bars on two tracks, and
> made sure, that the first Clap of Bar1 and the first Clap of Bar2
> where exact on each other with no offset. Then I measured the
> deviation of the other three Claps, and they had a maximum offset of
> 0,5 ms between each other.
>
> Then I did the same with the song played back by Cubase SX. And I
> measured offsets between 1,5 ms and up to 4 ms.
>
> You might say, that this is beyond a noticeable difference, but when
> you have a lot of drum stuff going on, you really can feel the
> difference when you compare it to the output of the P3. (Or at least I
> believe that i can feel it, although i did no blind test)
>
> Now this really drives me cracy.
>
> Mybe I'm not using the right environment? I'm using Windows 2000 (SP4)
> with directx 9.0c and Cubase SX. I read somewhere that WindowsXP and
> Cubase SX3 should be ways better. Anyone with experience about that?
>
> Or another solution might be the Midex8 with that strange LTB Method.
> But they doesn't seem to sell it anymore? Why? Are all Midi Timing
> Problems solved with WinXP, or is it just because noone cares anymore?
>
> At the moment I really think about just rehearsing more with the P3
> and just using the Laptop as a 8-Track recorder, and forget about
> arranging with the Computer. If only I had more then two hands, so
> that I could do more than tweak two knobs of my Nord Modular.
>
> If anyone knows a solution to this Windows Timing stuff, please let me
> know.
>
> Best wishes and once again: thanx Colin for this wonderful P3.
> Stoffel
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:23:51 -0400, "Dave Magnuson"
<resfreq@hoohahrecords.com> wrote:

>Something else to try:  Let a hardware box (P3 or a drum machine) be the 
>MIDI master device, and cubase as a slave.   The timing will be better, but 
>probably still not perfect.

You can do that with Cubase VST but SX doesn't let itself sync to
anything as primitive as MIDI Clock...

Paul

---
Paul Nagle - Joint Intelligence Committee - www.JointIntelligenceCommittee.com
                           SoftRoom Music - www.softroom.co.uk

P3 can only work with midi clock?

Paul Nagle <softroom@btinternet.com> wrote:  On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:23:51 -0400, "Dave Magnuson"
<resfreq@hoohahrecords.com> wrote:

>Something else to try:  Let a hardware box (P3 or a drum machine) be the 
>MIDI master device, and cubase as a slave.   The timing will be better, but 
>probably still not perfect.

You can do that with Cubase VST but SX doesn't let itself sync to
anything as primitive as MIDI Clock...

Paul

---
Paul Nagle - Joint Intelligence Committee - www.JointIntelligenceCommittee.com
                           SoftRoom Music - www.softroom.co.uk
          

    
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Zed Velkovich wrote:
> P3 can only work with midi clock?
>   
It's a step sequencer - what other kind of sync did you have in mind?

Paul

---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music / Bogus Focus Records / Binar / Headshock / The Joint Intelligence Committee
        www.softroom.co.uk / www.BogusFocus.com / www.JointIntelligenceCommittee.com 
** New JIC Live CD available at the BogusFocus site now!! **

You wrote that we should not sync to a primitive midi clock, what did you have in mind?

Paul Nagle <softroom@btinternet.com> wrote:  Zed Velkovich wrote:
> P3 can only work with midi clock?
>   
It's a step sequencer - what other kind of sync did you have in mind?

Paul

---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music / Bogus Focus Records / Binar / Headshock / The Joint Intelligence Committee
        www.softroom.co.uk / www.BogusFocus.com / www.JointIntelligenceCommittee.com 
** New JIC Live CD available at the BogusFocus site now!! ** 

                      



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Zed Velkovich wrote:
> You wrote that we should not sync to a primitive midi clock, what did you have in mind?
>   
No, I wrote that Cubase SX cannot be slave to MIDI clock (or couldn't 
last time I looked). It's one reason I remained with Cubase VST (before 
later abandoning both of them).

Of course, you can send MIDI clock *from* SX for the P3 to be slave to.

Paul

---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music / Bogus Focus Records / Binar / Headshock / The Joint Intelligence Committee
        www.softroom.co.uk / www.BogusFocus.com / www.JointIntelligenceCommittee.com 
** New JIC Live CD available at the BogusFocus site now!! **

semi off topic, but I found when I slave my midi gear (P3, MDrum, MPC) etc.... to my protools le setup I get much more responsive start and stop commands, then vice versa....

I used to always record using my DAW as the slave, sending start/stop commands from midi gear but it would result in less than stelar start timing.

Is this a well documented thing,ie: something that happens to everyone, Or am i just CRAZY!!

bit 2 much smoke over the years which possibly has driven me mad....

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Nagle 
  To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 12:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [analogue-sequencer] OT: Windows Midi Timing


  Zed Velkovich wrote:
  > You wrote that we should not sync to a primitive midi clock, what did you have in mind?
  >   
  No, I wrote that Cubase SX cannot be slave to MIDI clock (or couldn't 
  last time I looked). It's one reason I remained with Cubase VST (before 
  later abandoning both of them).

  Of course, you can send MIDI clock *from* SX for the P3 to be slave to.

  Paul

  ---
  Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music / Bogus Focus Records / Binar / Headshock / The Joint Intelligence Committee
          www.softroom.co.uk / www.BogusFocus.com / www.JointIntelligenceCommittee.com 
  ** New JIC Live CD available at the BogusFocus site now!! ** 

                        



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There's a big difference between purely tempo-based sequencing of MIDI
events and linear playback of audio tracks, which seems to be the main
purpose of many "sequencers" now.
Taking account of the fact that once you record an audio track its tempo is
pretty much fixed, unless you have real-time tempo correction like Acid or
Ableton Live, I can see why Cubase SX dropped support for syncing to MIDI
clock.
It does seem a bit limiting not to allow it even if you choose to disable
the audio functions and run it as a pure MIDI sequencer...

If you're running P3 alongside a PC-based DAW system, slaving the P3 to MIDI
clock from the PC seems like the logical approach.

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com

> Or another solution might be the Midex8 with that strange LTB Method.

This should give you very exact timing and Steinberg did do a little two 
channel version of it too for 80GBP or so. The problem then will be how 
accurate Cubase spits out data, which should be very good. Or not... 
something about emulated ports comes to mind here.

When I stopped using Cubase on the Atari to move over to PC a few years 
back I couldn't believe how shite the timing was. I went back to the 
Atari for a couple of years to wait and see if PCs could be made better. 
But I think I was unlucky with my current PC at the time. There were 
various chip sets that had knock on effects on USB timing and hence any 
connected USB-midi interface would also be skewy.

My new PC appears better but I only have two ancient hardware synths now 
and their midi timing is less than perfect.

A PCI midi interface should be better than any USB one. But getting a 
PCI anything these days is not so easy.

Tony

www.oakleysound.com

> in CoolEdit I arranged the two bars on two tracks, and
> made sure, that the first Clap of Bar1 and the first Clap of Bar2
> where exact on each other with no offset. Then I measured the
> deviation of the other three Claps, and they had a maximum offset of
> 0,5 ms between each other.
> Then I did the same with the song played back by Cubase SX. And I
> measured offsets between 1,5 ms and up to 4 ms.

As far as I know your measurements are normal for Cubase.Steinberg 
think these figures are acceptable


> Mybe I'm not using the right environment? I'm using Windows 2000 
(SP4)
> with directx 9.0c and Cubase SX. I read somewhere that WindowsXP and
> Cubase SX3 should be ways better. Anyone with experience about that?

I don't think this will help due to the design of Steinbergs midi 
engine.I've read an article about how the midi engine uses jitter to 
distribute events.Each event has a small "time window" instead of an 
exact position.
If I can find the article again I will post a link for you.


> Or another solution might be the Midex8 with that strange LTB 
Method.

These devices only give better timing on playback.
They work by introducing a little latency and sending timestamped 
midi events from the computer to the interface ahead of time.Then the 
interface distributes the events at the correct time.
I can see how this is great if you are using Cubase to generate all 
your midi data,but if you record midi you may still have to do some 
quantising to get the data to play back like your hardware.
I've heard of people getting great results from these devices in 
conjunction with mpc groove templates.


> > At the moment I really think about just rehearsing more with the 
P3
> > and just using the Laptop as a 8-Track recorder, and forget about
> > arranging with the Computer. If only I had more then two hands, so
> > that I could do more than tweak two knobs of my Nord Modular.
> >
> > If anyone knows a solution to this Windows Timing stuff, please 
let me
> > know.

Rehearsing more with your P3 can only be a good thing:)
Have you thought about useing another hardware sequencer to record 
and arrange your midi and just using the computer to record the audio?

Later's
Mitch