Yahoo Groups archive

Disklavier

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:20 UTC

Thread

Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by Carol Beigel

I realize this gray market issue comes up regularly, and if I was not 
concerned about the issue and how is so sadly affects the cusotmers who buy 
these pianos, I would not bother to reply.  I have 30 years experience 
servicing pianos and have never seen a gray market piano equal in 
performance or tone, the same piano made for the North American market. 
Let's take the geography out of the argument and stick to the indoor climate 
model.  In North America, people's homes can range from about 6% to 90% 
relative humidity during the year.  If you were to leave a pile of wood 
outddoors for 4 years, the moisture content of the wood would be around 12%. 
Should you build a piano from this pile of wood and place it in a home where 
the relative humidity stayed below 10% for many weeks, the piano would have 
problems from shrinking.  However, if you first kiln dried that wood down to 
5% moisture content and built your piano, it would not warp in low humidity.

The damage done to a gray market piano is done when there is too much 
dryness.  Wood swells up in high humidity as you know because the pitch of 
your piano is sharp during the summer.  When you turn on your furnace, the 
pitch drips dramatically because the soundboard has shrunk, or flattened 
out.  If you take your nice dried out 5% moisture soundboard, and expose it 
to 80% RH, it will expand. Since it has nowhere to go, it grows (warps) with 
a huge crown in the middle.  The cell structure of the wood compresses 
usually near the glue lines and you can see the pressure ridges.  Left 
without climate control, those pressure ridges become the cracks in the 
soundboard you see when the piano dries out.

Think of a piece of wood like you would holding a handfull of straws. 
Moisture can only leave through the ends of the straws, and not the sides. 
Wood takes on moisture very quickly, but it takes about 6 weeks for it to 
leave.  Since it can only leave through the end grain of the keys, action 
parts, soundboards, etc. there is flexing or warping of the wood.  Round 
holes become oval shaped, so any metal pins will bind.  Cloth bushings in 
the keys and action parts swell.  This causes sticking keys and notes that 
return slowly.  Think of a popsicle stick thrown in your front lawn.  It was 
straight when you finished your popsicle, but a week later laying around in 
the sun, it can be quite warped and cracked.

Over time, this changing of moisture content is very hard on pianos.  That 
is why there are piano climate control systems that are helpful when people 
move from Florida to Phoenix.  If you bought your piano in the U.S. you will 
find under how to care for your piano, that the relative humidity should be 
kept as constant as possible and probably around 42 to 50%.

Kiln drying wood is very expensive as it requires a lot of energy and time. 
Why put a piano through this expensive process when your market is a place 
where the inside of buildings will remain fairly constant?  If no one in 
your market needs to heat up a furnace during cold, snowy weather, why 
bother to add twice the cost of manufacturing?  That is why different 
factories around the world produce pianos for different markets - because 
they are located in different indoor climate zones.

People in Europe generally do not heat their homes as dry as North Americans 
do because the temperatures outdoors were milder in winter.  I doubt some 
people who live in some parts of Indonesia or Asia have ever seen snow.  So 
why should they pay for a piano made from kiln dried wood?

On the other hand, people who live in most of North America will be sadly 
dissappointed with a piano that was not made from kiln dried wood.  They 
will have intermittent sticking keys at best.  And it they purchased a 
Disklavier with electronic parts that are not UL approved, they will have 
trouble finding a supplier willing to risk a product safety lawsuit.  The 
world of manufacturing wood products has changed significantly in the past 
30 years.  Acid rain has been decimating spruce forests.  The highest 
bidders for premium lumber often turn it into paper.  Environmental 
protections dictate how many vapors are allowed to evaporate off the finish, 
what glues do to worker's lungs, how wood sawdust from hardwoods can cause 
cancer in woodworkers, or where a manufacturer may obtain the leather needed 
to cushion piano actions.  The dyes in the wool felt and cloth also need to 
be considered as they can react with air pollution to cause premature string 
corrosion.

You can argue forever about the fairness of servicing or the manufacturing 
of pianos for different climate zones, but it comes down to reality 
eventually.  If you live in North America, purchasing a gray market piano is 
not in your best interest.

Carol Beigel


----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:14 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners manual)


> Jakarata, Indonesia. They make baby grand for American market.
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry <groups@...> wrote:
>>
>> rondisklavier wrote:
>> > Carol,
>> >
>> > I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my
>> > internship.
>> >
>> > I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano
> industry,
>> > I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for
>> > different market. It will cost them too much monies, in
> addition,
>> > Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different
> way
>> > for different market is utterly impossible.
>> >
>>
>> Ron - out of interest, where was the factory?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> James
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, 
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That 
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you 
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007 
> 6:20 PM
>
>

Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by Jimmy Lewis

Once more, well said Carol.

Hope it is clear now for everyone.


Le 07-08-28 à 23:16, Carol Beigel a écrit :

I realize this gray market issue comes up regularly, and if I was not
concerned about the issue and how is so sadly affects the cusotmers who buy
these pianos, I would not bother to reply. I have 30 years experience
servicing pianos and have never seen a gray market piano equal in
performance or tone, the same piano made for the North American market.
Let's take the geography out of the argument and stick to the indoor climate
model. In North America, people's homes can range from about 6% to 90%
relative humidity during the year. If you were to leave a pile of wood
outddoors for 4 years, the moisture content of the wood would be around 12%.
Should you build a piano from this pile of wood and place it in a home where
the relative humidity stayed below 10% for many weeks, the piano would have
problems from shrinking. However, if you first kiln dried that wood down to
5% moisture content and built your piano, it would not warp in low humidity.

The damage done to a gray market piano is done when there is too much
dryness. Wood swells up in high humidity as you know because the pitch of
your piano is sharp during the summer. When you turn on your furnace, the
pitch drips dramatically because the soundboard has shrunk, or flattened
out. If you take your nice dried out 5% moisture soundboard, and expose it
to 80% RH, it will expand. Since it has nowhere to go, it grows (warps) with
a huge crown in the middle. The cell structure of the wood compresses
usually near the glue lines and you can see the pressure ridges. Left
without climate control, those pressure ridges become the cracks in the
soundboard you see when the piano dries out.

Think of a piece of wood like you would holding a handfull of straws.
Moisture can only leave through the ends of the straws, and not the sides.
Wood takes on moisture very quickly, but it takes about 6 weeks for it to
leave. Since it can only leave through the end grain of the keys, action
parts, soundboards, etc. there is flexing or warping of the wood. Round
holes become oval shaped, so any metal pins will bind. Cloth bushings in
the keys and action parts swell. This causes sticking keys and notes that
return slowly. Think of a popsicle stick thrown in your front lawn. It was
straight when you finished your popsicle, but a week later laying around in
the sun, it can be quite warped and cracked.

Over time, this changing of moisture content is very hard on pianos. That
is why there are piano climate control systems that are helpful when people
move from Florida to Phoenix. If you bought your piano in the U.S. you will
find under how to care for your piano, that the relative humidity should be
kept as constant as possible and probably around 42 to 50%.

Kiln drying wood is very expensive as it requires a lot of energy and time.
Why put a piano through this expensive process when your market is a place
where the inside of buildings will remain fairly constant? If no one in
your market needs to heat up a furnace during cold, snowy weather, why
bother to add twice the cost of manufacturing? That is why different
factories around the world produce pianos for different markets - because
they are located in different indoor climate zones.

People in Europe generally do not heat their homes as dry as North Americans
do because the temperatures outdoors were milder in winter. I doubt some
people who live in some parts of Indonesia or Asia have ever seen snow. So
why should they pay for a piano made from kiln dried wood?

On the other hand, people who live in most of North America will be sadly
dissappointed with a piano that was not made from kiln dried wood. They
will have intermittent sticking keys at best. And it they purchased a
Disklavier with electronic parts that are not UL approved, they will have
trouble finding a supplier willing to risk a product safety lawsuit. The
world of manufacturing wood products has changed significantly in the past
30 years. Acid rain has been decimating spruce forests. The highest
bidders for premium lumber often turn it into paper. Environmental
protections dictate how many vapors are allowed to evaporate off the finish,
what glues do to worker's lungs, how wood sawdust from hardwoods can cause
cancer in woodworkers, or where a manufacturer may obtain the leather needed
to cushion piano actions. The dyes in the wool felt and cloth also need to
be considered as they can react with air pollution to cause premature string
corrosion.

You can argue forever about the fairness of servicing or the manufacturing
of pianos for different climate zones, but it comes down to reality
eventually. If you live in North America, purchasing a gray market piano is
not in your best interest.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message -----

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@aol.com>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:14 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners manual)

> Jakarata, Indonesia. They make baby grand for American market.
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry wrote:
>>
>> rondisklavier wrote:
>> > Carol,
>> >
>> > I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my
>> > internship.
>> >
>> > I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano
> industry,
>> > I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for
>> > different market. It will cost them too much monies, in
> addition,
>> > Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different
> way
>> > for different market is utterly impossible.
>> >
>>
>> Ron - out of interest, where was the factory?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> James
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@YahooGroups.com
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@Yahoogroups.com
>;
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com
>
> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@eGroups.com or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007
> 6:20 PM
>
>


Jimmy L.




Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by Todd Muncy

Carol,
I was becoming impatient with this thread and the tone it was taking, but your consistent cogent voice of knowledgeable experience made me confident that I need not interfere and the voice of reason would win out. I think it has. As always, thanks for all you have and continue to do for the group. You are truly a gem. BTW, my 9 year old US market DGT2 moved from NJ to MN almost two years ago and still has never needed a tuning :-). If one ever wonders who is right in a technical argument in this group, just sort by "from" and look for Carol to set you straight.
TTFN,
Todd
----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

I realize this gray market issue comes up regularly, and if I was not
concerned about the issue and how is so sadly affects the cusotmers who buy
these pianos, I would not bother to reply. I have 30 years experience
servicing pianos and have never seen a gray market piano equal in
performance or tone, the same piano made for the North American market.
Let's take the geography out of the argument and stick to the indoor climate
model. In North America, people's homes can range from about 6% to 90%
relative humidity during the year. If you were to leave a pile of wood
outddoors for 4 years, the moisture content of the wood would be around 12%.
Should you build a piano from this pile of wood and place it in a home where
the relative humidity stayed below 10% for many weeks, the piano would have
problems from shrinking. However, if you first kiln dried that wood down to
5% moisture content and built your piano, it would not warp in low humidity.

The damage done to a gray market piano is done when there is too much
dryness. Wood swells up in high humidity as you know because the pitch of
your piano is sharp during the summer. When you turn on your furnace, the
pitch drips dramatically because the soundboard has shrunk, or flattened
out. If you take your nice dried out 5% moisture soundboard, and expose it
to 80% RH, it will expand. Since it has nowhere to go, it grows (warps) with
a huge crown in the middle. The cell structure of the wood compresses
usually near the glue lines and you can see the pressure ridges. Left
without climate control, those pressure ridges become the cracks in the
soundboard you see when the piano dries out.

Think of a piece of wood like you would holding a handfull of straws.
Moisture can only leave through the ends of the straws, and not the sides.
Wood takes on moisture very quickly, but it takes about 6 weeks for it to
leave. Since it can only leave through the end grain of the keys, action
parts, soundboards, etc. there is flexing or warping of the wood. Round
holes become oval shaped, so any metal pins will bind. Cloth bushings in
the keys and action parts swell. This causes sticking keys and notes that
return slowly. Think of a popsicle stick thrown in your front lawn. It was
straight when you finished your popsicle, but a week later laying around in
the sun, it can be quite warped and cracked.

Over time, this changing of moisture content is very hard on pianos. That
is why there are piano climate control systems that are helpful when people
move from Florida to Phoenix. If you bought your piano in the U.S. you will
find under how to care for your piano, that the relative humidity should be
kept as constant as possible and probably around 42 to 50%.

Kiln drying wood is very expensive as it requires a lot of energy and time.
Why put a piano through this expensive process when your market is a place
where the inside of buildings will remain fairly constant? If no one in
your market needs to heat up a furnace during cold, snowy weather, why
bother to add twice the cost of manufacturing? That is why different
factories around the world produce pianos for different markets - because
they are located in different indoor climate zones.

People in Europe generally do not heat their homes as dry as North Americans
do because the temperatures outdoors were milder in winter. I doubt some
people who live in some parts of Indonesia or Asia have ever seen snow. So
why should they pay for a piano made from kiln dried wood?

On the other hand, people who live in most of North America will be sadly
dissappointed with a piano that was not made from kiln dried wood. They
will have intermittent sticking keys at best. And it they purchased a
Disklavier with electronic parts that are not UL approved, they will have
trouble finding a supplier willing to risk a product safety lawsuit. The
world of manufacturing wood products has changed significantly in the past
30 years. Acid rain has been decimating spruce forests. The highest
bidders for premium lumber often turn it into paper. Environmental
protections dictate how many vapors are allowed to evaporate off the finish,
what glues do to worker's lungs, how wood sawdust from hardwoods can cause
cancer in woodworkers, or where a manufacturer may obtain the leather needed
to cushion piano actions. The dyes in the wool felt and cloth also need to
be considered as they can react with air pollution to cause premature string
corrosion.

You can argue forever about the fairness of servicing or the manufacturing
of pianos for different climate zones, but it comes down to reality
eventually. If you live in North America, purchasing a gray market piano is
not in your best interest.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message -----
From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@aol.com>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:14 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners manual)

> Jakarata, Indonesia. They make baby grand for American market.
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry wrote:
>>
>> rondisklavier wrote:
>> > Carol,
>> >
>> > I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my
>> > internship.
>> >
>> > I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano
> industry,
>> > I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for
>> > different market. It will cost them too much monies, in
> addition,
>> > Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different
> way
>> > for different market is utterly impossible.
>> >
>>
>> Ron - out of interest, where was the factory?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> James
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@YahooGroups.com
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@Yahoogroups.com
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com
>
> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@eGroups.com or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007
> 6:20 PM
>
>

Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by Richard H. Kerr

Amen to Todd. Kudos to Carol. I thought the tone rather out of place, inconsiderate, and disrespectful of someone we all love and respect highly.
----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Todd Muncy
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

Carol,
I was becoming impatient with this thread and the tone it was taking, but your consistent cogent voice of knowledgeable experience made me confident that I need not interfere and the voice of reason would win out. I think it has. As always, thanks for all you have and continue to do for the group. You are truly a gem. BTW, my 9 year old US market DGT2 moved from NJ to MN almost two years ago and still has never needed a tuning :-). If one ever wonders who is right in a technical argument in this group, just sort by "from" and look for Carol to set you straight.
TTFN,
Todd
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

I realize this gray market issue comes up regularly, and if I was not
concerned about the issue and how is so sadly affects the cusotmers who buy
these pianos, I would not bother to reply. I have 30 years experience
servicing pianos and have never seen a gray market piano equal in
performance or tone, the same piano made for the North American market.
Let's take the geography out of the argument and stick to the indoor climate
model. In North America, people's homes can range from about 6% to 90%
relative humidity during the year. If you were to leave a pile of wood
outddoors for 4 years, the moisture content of the wood would be around 12%.
Should you build a piano from this pile of wood and place it in a home where
the relative humidity stayed below 10% for many weeks, the piano would have
problems from shrinking. However, if you first kiln dried that wood down to
5% moisture content and built your piano, it would not warp in low humidity.

The damage done to a gray market piano is done when there is too much
dryness. Wood swells up in high humidity as you know because the pitch of
your piano is sharp during the summer. When you turn on your furnace, the
pitch drips dramatically because the soundboard has shrunk, or flattened
out. If you take your nice dried out 5% moisture soundboard, and expose it
to 80% RH, it will expand. Since it has nowhere to go, it grows (warps) with
a huge crown in the middle. The cell structure of the wood compresses
usually near the glue lines and you can see the pressure ridges. Left
without climate control, those pressure ridges become the cracks in the
soundboard you see when the piano dries out.

Think of a piece of wood like you would holding a handfull of straws.
Moisture can only leave through the ends of the straws, and not the sides.
Wood takes on moisture very quickly, but it takes about 6 weeks for it to
leave. Since it can only leave through the end grain of the keys, action
parts, soundboards, etc. there is flexing or warping of the wood. Round
holes become oval shaped, so any metal pins will bind. Cloth bushings in
the keys and action parts swell. This causes sticking keys and notes that
return slowly. Think of a popsicle stick thrown in your front lawn. It was
straight when you finished your popsicle, but a week later laying around in
the sun, it can be quite warped and cracked.

Over time, this changing of moisture content is very hard on pianos. That
is why there are piano climate control systems that are helpful when people
move from Florida to Phoenix. If you bought your piano in the U.S. you will
find under how to care for your piano, that the relative humidity should be
kept as constant as possible and probably around 42 to 50%.

Kiln drying wood is very expensive as it requires a lot of energy and time.
Why put a piano through this expensive process when your market is a place
where the inside of buildings will remain fairly constant? If no one in
your market needs to heat up a furnace during cold, snowy weather, why
bother to add twice the cost of manufacturing? That is why different
factories around the world produce pianos for different markets - because
they are located in different indoor climate zones.

People in Europe generally do not heat their homes as dry as North Americans
do because the temperatures outdoors were milder in winter. I doubt some
people who live in some parts of Indonesia or Asia have ever seen snow. So
why should they pay for a piano made from kiln dried wood?

On the other hand, people who live in most of North America will be sadly
dissappointed with a piano that was not made from kiln dried wood. They
will have intermittent sticking keys at best. And it they purchased a
Disklavier with electronic parts that are not UL approved, they will have
trouble finding a supplier willing to risk a product safety lawsuit. The
world of manufacturing wood products has changed significantly in the past
30 years. Acid rain has been decimating spruce forests. The highest
bidders for premium lumber often turn it into paper. Environmental
protections dictate how many vapors are allowed to evaporate off the finish,
what glues do to worker's lungs, how wood sawdust from hardwoods can cause
cancer in woodworkers, or where a manufacturer may obtain the leather needed
to cushion piano actions. The dyes in the wool felt and cloth also need to
be considered as they can react with air pollution to cause premature string
corrosion.

You can argue forever about the fairness of servicing or the manufacturing
of pianos for different climate zones, but it comes down to reality
eventually. If you live in North America, purchasing a gray market piano is
not in your best interest.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message -----
From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@aol.com>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:14 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners manual)

> Jakarata, Indonesia. They make baby grand for American market.
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry wrote:
>>
>> rondisklavier wrote:
>> > Carol,
>> >
>> > I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my
>> > internship.
>> >
>> > I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano
> industry,
>> > I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for
>> > different market. It will cost them too much monies, in
> addition,
>> > Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different
> way
>> > for different market is utterly impossible.
>> >
>>
>> Ron - out of interest, where was the factory?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> James
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@YahooGroups.com
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@Yahoogroups.com
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com
>
> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@eGroups.com or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007
> 6:20 PM
>
>

RE: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by Michael D. Chipolone

Amen!
 
        Many of us must be wondering "Who is Carol Beigel" and how did
someone like Carol become so knowledgeable?
        There must be more than just 30 years of experience servicing
pianos...         
 
         Mike Chipolone  
           

-----Original Message-----
From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Todd Muncy
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:02 PM
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos


Carol,
I was becoming impatient with this thread and the tone it was taking, but
your consistent cogent voice of knowledgeable experience made me confident
that I need not interfere and the voice of reason would win out.  I think it
has.  As always, thanks for all you have and continue to do for the group.
You are truly a gem.  BTW, my 9 year old US market DGT2 moved from NJ to MN
almost two years ago and still has never needed a tuning :-).  If one ever
wonders who is right in a technical argument in this group, just sort by
"from" and look for Carol to set you straight.
TTFN,
Todd
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Carol  <mailto:thecarolb@...> Beigel 
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos


I realize this gray market issue comes up regularly, and if I was not 
concerned about the issue and how is so sadly affects the cusotmers who buy 
these pianos, I would not bother to reply. I have 30 years experience 
servicing pianos and have never seen a gray market piano equal in 
performance or tone, the same piano made for the North American market. 
Let's take the geography out of the argument and stick to the indoor climate

model. In North America, people's homes can range from about 6% to 90% 
relative humidity during the year. If you were to leave a pile of wood 
outddoors for 4 years, the moisture content of the wood would be around 12%.

Should you build a piano from this pile of wood and place it in a home where

the relative humidity stayed below 10% for many weeks, the piano would have 
problems from shrinking. However, if you first kiln dried that wood down to 
5% moisture content and built your piano, it would not warp in low humidity.

The damage done to a gray market piano is done when there is too much 
dryness. Wood swells up in high humidity as you know because the pitch of 
your piano is sharp during the summer. When you turn on your furnace, the 
pitch drips dramatically because the soundboard has shrunk, or flattened 
out. If you take your nice dried out 5% moisture soundboard, and expose it 
to 80% RH, it will expand. Since it has nowhere to go, it grows (warps) with

a huge crown in the middle. The cell structure of the wood compresses 
usually near the glue lines and you can see the pressure ridges. Left 
without climate control, those pressure ridges become the cracks in the 
soundboard you see when the piano dries out.

Think of a piece of wood like you would holding a handfull of straws. 
Moisture can only leave through the ends of the straws, and not the sides. 
Wood takes on moisture very quickly, but it takes about 6 weeks for it to 
leave. Since it can only leave through the end grain of the keys, action 
parts, soundboards, etc. there is flexing or warping of the wood. Round 
holes become oval shaped, so any metal pins will bind. Cloth bushings in 
the keys and action parts swell. This causes sticking keys and notes that 
return slowly. Think of a popsicle stick thrown in your front lawn. It was 
straight when you finished your popsicle, but a week later laying around in 
the sun, it can be quite warped and cracked.

Over time, this changing of moisture content is very hard on pianos. That 
is why there are piano climate control systems that are helpful when people 
move from Florida to Phoenix. If you bought your piano in the U.S. you will 
find under how to care for your piano, that the relative humidity should be 
kept as constant as possible and probably around 42 to 50%.

Kiln drying wood is very expensive as it requires a lot of energy and time. 
Why put a piano through this expensive process when your market is a place 
where the inside of buildings will remain fairly constant? If no one in 
your market needs to heat up a furnace during cold, snowy weather, why 
bother to add twice the cost of manufacturing? That is why different 
factories around the world produce pianos for different markets - because 
they are located in different indoor climate zones.

People in Europe generally do not heat their homes as dry as North Americans

do because the temperatures outdoors were milder in winter. I doubt some 
people who live in some parts of Indonesia or Asia have ever seen snow. So 
why should they pay for a piano made from kiln dried wood?

On the other hand, people who live in most of North America will be sadly 
dissappointed with a piano that was not made from kiln dried wood. They 
will have intermittent sticking keys at best. And it they purchased a 
Disklavier with electronic parts that are not UL approved, they will have 
trouble finding a supplier willing to risk a product safety lawsuit. The 
world of manufacturing wood products has changed significantly in the past 
30 years. Acid rain has been decimating spruce forests. The highest 
bidders for premium lumber often turn it into paper. Environmental 
protections dictate how many vapors are allowed to evaporate off the finish,

what glues do to worker's lungs, how wood sawdust from hardwoods can cause 
cancer in woodworkers, or where a manufacturer may obtain the leather needed

to cushion piano actions. The dyes in the wool felt and cloth also need to 
be considered as they can react with air pollution to cause premature string

corrosion.

You can argue forever about the fairness of servicing or the manufacturing 
of pianos for different climate zones, but it comes down to reality 
eventually. If you live in North America, purchasing a gray market piano is 
not in your best interest.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@aol. <mailto:setiawansr%40aol.com> com>
To: <disklavier@yahoogro <mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:14 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners manual)

> Jakarata, Indonesia. They make baby grand for American market.
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogro <mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
James Fry <groups@...> wrote:
>>
>> rondisklavier wrote:
>> > Carol,
>> >
>> > I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my
>> > internship.
>> >
>> > I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano
> industry,
>> > I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for
>> > different market. It will cost them too much monies, in
> addition,
>> > Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different
> way
>> > for different market is utterly impossible.
>> >
>>
>> Ron - out of interest, where was the factory?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> James
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@YahooGro
<mailto:disklavier%40YahooGroups.com> ups.com
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@ <mailto:disklavier-owner%40Yahoogroups.com>
Yahoogroups.com
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups. <http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier>
com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,

> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That 
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you 
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscr <mailto:disklavier-unsubscribe%40yahooGroups.com>
ibe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscrib <mailto:disklavier-subscribe%40eGroups.com>
e@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups. <http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join>
com/group/disklavier/join
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007

> 6:20 PM
>
>

Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by rondisklavier

Carol,

I am not arguing about the fairness of service. Yamaha Corp of 
America has all right to prevent losing market share. Therefore, 
they must do something about this. Actually, other international 
companies do the same strategy, for example Nikon or Sonus Faber 
(Italian Loudspeaker company, many of their products are more 
expensive than Yamaha pianos). The difference is that they do not 
say that they make different product for US market, they just purely 
try to protect their market in US which is fine and they should do 
this. 

All your explanation is totally making sense. The questions are from 
the Yamaha side. Are they really making pianos for North America 
market? Based on my observations and facts, it is just does not make 
sense for Yamaha to make inferior products for different market, 
because those products may be used in the similar environment in US:

1. Connectors - You said that the connection for gray market pianos 
are soldered instead of using nice connectors. The argument here is 
that Yamaha does not hire electronics technicians to build their 
piano ( I was in the factory), they hire men and women who only 
finished junior high to assemble their products. Therefore, Yamaha 
needs to ensure that their workers wil not make mistakes which 
causes Yamaha a lot of monies if they keep making unnecessary 
mistake. In addition, Yamaha is very good in quality control. 
Everyday at 3 pm, they destroyed any imperfection parts at the 
parking lot. Having said this, Yamaha cannot afford doing manual 
soldering like what found in gray market piano.

2. If the wood that Yamaha uses for non American market are not 
dried as dry as what they use for American market, the pianos that 
they produce for Asia market will crack because most people who can 
afford to buy grand piano or disklavier will first airconditioner 
their house before they are willing to pay big monies for a grand or 
a disklavier. Most likely people over there prefer having cool and 
dry living space is a higher priority to playing a grand or a 
disklav in sweat.

My conclusion is that Yamaha actually makes the same quality of 
pianos for every market.

RS





--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...> 
wrote:
>
> I realize this gray market issue comes up regularly, and if I was 
not 
> concerned about the issue and how is so sadly affects the 
cusotmers who buy 
> these pianos, I would not bother to reply.  I have 30 years 
experience 
> servicing pianos and have never seen a gray market piano equal in 
> performance or tone, the same piano made for the North American 
market. 
> Let's take the geography out of the argument and stick to the 
indoor climate 
> model.  In North America, people's homes can range from about 6% 
to 90% 
> relative humidity during the year.  If you were to leave a pile of 
wood 
> outddoors for 4 years, the moisture content of the wood would be 
around 12%. 
> Should you build a piano from this pile of wood and place it in a 
home where 
> the relative humidity stayed below 10% for many weeks, the piano 
would have 
> problems from shrinking.  However, if you first kiln dried that 
wood down to 
> 5% moisture content and built your piano, it would not warp in low 
humidity.
> 
> The damage done to a gray market piano is done when there is too 
much 
> dryness.  Wood swells up in high humidity as you know because the 
pitch of 
> your piano is sharp during the summer.  When you turn on your 
furnace, the 
> pitch drips dramatically because the soundboard has shrunk, or 
flattened 
> out.  If you take your nice dried out 5% moisture soundboard, and 
expose it 
> to 80% RH, it will expand. Since it has nowhere to go, it grows 
(warps) with 
> a huge crown in the middle.  The cell structure of the wood 
compresses 
> usually near the glue lines and you can see the pressure ridges.  
Left 
> without climate control, those pressure ridges become the cracks 
in the 
> soundboard you see when the piano dries out.
> 
> Think of a piece of wood like you would holding a handfull of 
straws. 
> Moisture can only leave through the ends of the straws, and not 
the sides. 
> Wood takes on moisture very quickly, but it takes about 6 weeks 
for it to 
> leave.  Since it can only leave through the end grain of the keys, 
action 
> parts, soundboards, etc. there is flexing or warping of the wood.  
Round 
> holes become oval shaped, so any metal pins will bind.  Cloth 
bushings in 
> the keys and action parts swell.  This causes sticking keys and 
notes that 
> return slowly.  Think of a popsicle stick thrown in your front 
lawn.  It was 
> straight when you finished your popsicle, but a week later laying 
around in 
> the sun, it can be quite warped and cracked.
> 
> Over time, this changing of moisture content is very hard on 
pianos.  That 
> is why there are piano climate control systems that are helpful 
when people 
> move from Florida to Phoenix.  If you bought your piano in the 
U.S. you will 
> find under how to care for your piano, that the relative humidity 
should be 
> kept as constant as possible and probably around 42 to 50%.
> 
> Kiln drying wood is very expensive as it requires a lot of energy 
and time. 
> Why put a piano through this expensive process when your market is 
a place 
> where the inside of buildings will remain fairly constant?  If no 
one in 
> your market needs to heat up a furnace during cold, snowy weather, 
why 
> bother to add twice the cost of manufacturing?  That is why 
different 
> factories around the world produce pianos for different markets - 
because 
> they are located in different indoor climate zones.
> 
> People in Europe generally do not heat their homes as dry as North 
Americans 
> do because the temperatures outdoors were milder in winter.  I 
doubt some 
> people who live in some parts of Indonesia or Asia have ever seen 
snow.  So 
> why should they pay for a piano made from kiln dried wood?
> 
> On the other hand, people who live in most of North America will 
be sadly 
> dissappointed with a piano that was not made from kiln dried 
wood.  They 
> will have intermittent sticking keys at best.  And it they 
purchased a 
> Disklavier with electronic parts that are not UL approved, they 
will have 
> trouble finding a supplier willing to risk a product safety 
lawsuit.  The 
> world of manufacturing wood products has changed significantly in 
the past 
> 30 years.  Acid rain has been decimating spruce forests.  The 
highest 
> bidders for premium lumber often turn it into paper.  
Environmental 
> protections dictate how many vapors are allowed to evaporate off 
the finish, 
> what glues do to worker's lungs, how wood sawdust from hardwoods 
can cause 
> cancer in woodworkers, or where a manufacturer may obtain the 
leather needed 
> to cushion piano actions.  The dyes in the wool felt and cloth 
also need to 
> be considered as they can react with air pollution to cause 
premature string 
> corrosion.
> 
> You can argue forever about the fairness of servicing or the 
manufacturing 
> of pianos for different climate zones, but it comes down to 
reality 
> eventually.  If you live in North America, purchasing a gray 
market piano is 
> not in your best interest.
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
> To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:14 PM
> Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners 
manual)
> 
> 
> > Jakarata, Indonesia. They make baby grand for American market.
> >
> >
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry <groups@> wrote:
> >>
> >> rondisklavier wrote:
> >> > Carol,
> >> >
> >> > I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my
> >> > internship.
> >> >
> >> > I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano
> > industry,
> >> > I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for
> >> > different market. It will cost them too much monies, in
> > addition,
> >> > Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing 
different
> > way
> >> > for different market is utterly impossible.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Ron - out of interest, where was the factory?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> James
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> >
> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> > moderator, send it to:
> > disklavier-owner@...
> >
> > To reach our group's web site go to:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >
> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too 
much mail, 
> > go the the web site and change your email delivery option 
instead.  That 
> > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the 
group.  If you 
> > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 
8/27/2007 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 6:20 PM
> >
> >
>

Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by Ron Natalie

I think a lot of this comes from MISUNDERSTANDING the Yamaha
position paper on this.  The document does NOT say that the North
American pianos TODAY are different than the Asian pianos TODAY.

It says that when Yamaha was making Pianos in the 60's for the Asia
market they had problems with ones imported into the US that lead
to Yamaha developing new drying kilns.

The official line now is "When asked about one of these pianos we can
not provide infomration other than it was not made for this market" and
that parts can be difficult to obtain (a large part of which is that YCA
won't sell them to you).

The issue of a modern built for the Asian market piano compared to
a modern US piano is mostly danced around by the corporate party
line.

Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by Carol Beigel

In this global world of ours, I think it is very hard to understand how
everyone else lives.  It is quite difficult for me to understand that the
U.S. is not the center of the universe.  However, I know that air
conditioning here in the Washington D.C. area never really dries out a
house.  When the temperature and humidity is 95% outside, and the
temperature in the piano  room is about 72 degrees, the air is still damp.
I cannot imagine air conditioning in Jakarta drying out a house to 6%
relative humidity.  The problem is created by central heating, not air
conditioning!  Sometimes the relative humidity outside in my neighborhood is
26% meaning that even if I shoved my piano outside onto my deck the air
would be too dry.

I do not believe the air is ever that dry in Indonesia and other countries
near the equator.  You probably find it difficult to believe that there is a
time every year where your hardwood floors separate, your ceiling mouldings
pull away from the wall or your nose bleeds from the sheer dryness in your
home.

When pianos manufactured in Japan ( and other Asian countries), started
coming to this country in the 1960's, they litteraly fell apart on the
loading docks or soon thereafter.  You could not tune them, and the keys
warped so badly they seized up.  Now these manufacturers had been building
very nice pianos since the 1800s with no problems in their home markets.
Radical changes needed to be made in the way they were manufactured.

You really need to believe that pianos are manufactured differently for
different climate zones. In some places the market is so humid that the
piano strings are coated with phosphorus to avoid rapid corrosion.  Some
places in the world never see humidity inside lower than 40%.  It also costs
more to manufacture a piano that won't crack or warp when there is a huge
range of indoor climate between 6% and 90% RH.

There is probably nothing more that I can say about this.  Everyone makes
thieir own decisions on what they believe to be true - especially if they
think it is kind to their wallets.  Right or wrong, it is a fact that not
all pianos, even within a brand name,  are manufactured the same way.  This
is far more than a market issue.  For pianos, it is also a quality control
issue.

The reason there are gray market pianos has more of a cultural explanation. 
The global market has changed faster than how people decide what to buy. 
For instance, my experience with people who have lived in Korea, Japan and 
China is that they do not like to buy used merchandise - they buy NEW 
pianos!  On the other hand, Americans always try to make do, and believe 
that older is just as good as new and that pianos last forever.  Now you 
have the supply of used pianos in Asia with no market, and the market for 
them in the U.S.  There are many who have noticed this and are happy to 
import these pianos to the U.S. where they are sold for about half of what 
the same or similar model sells for made for the North American market. 
Unfortunately, although these pianos look great and clean (to an American, 
clean iand shiny is as good as new) they do not have the rugged 
manufacturing needed to function properly in a country where moisture in 
homes ranges from 6% to 90% RH.  These are what are know as gray market 
pianos in the U.S.


Carol Beigel




----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:16 AM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos


> Carol,
>
> I am not arguing about the fairness of service. Yamaha Corp of
> America has all right to prevent losing market share. Therefore,
> they must do something about this. Actually, other international
> companies do the same strategy, for example Nikon or Sonus Faber
> (Italian Loudspeaker company, many of their products are more
> expensive than Yamaha pianos). The difference is that they do not
> say that they make different product for US market, they just purely
> try to protect their market in US which is fine and they should do
> this.
>
> All your explanation is totally making sense. The questions are from
> the Yamaha side. Are they really making pianos for North America
> market? Based on my observations and facts, it is just does not make
> sense for Yamaha to make inferior products for different market,
> because those products may be used in the similar environment in US:
>
> 1. Connectors - You said that the connection for gray market pianos
> are soldered instead of using nice connectors. The argument here is
> that Yamaha does not hire electronics technicians to build their
> piano ( I was in the factory), they hire men and women who only
> finished junior high to assemble their products. Therefore, Yamaha
> needs to ensure that their workers wil not make mistakes which
> causes Yamaha a lot of monies if they keep making unnecessary
> mistake. In addition, Yamaha is very good in quality control.
> Everyday at 3 pm, they destroyed any imperfection parts at the
> parking lot. Having said this, Yamaha cannot afford doing manual
> soldering like what found in gray market piano.
>
> 2. If the wood that Yamaha uses for non American market are not
> dried as dry as what they use for American market, the pianos that
> they produce for Asia market will crack because most people who can
> afford to buy grand piano or disklavier will first airconditioner
> their house before they are willing to pay big monies for a grand or
> a disklavier. Most likely people over there prefer having cool and
> dry living space is a higher priority to playing a grand or a
> disklav in sweat.
>
> My conclusion is that Yamaha actually makes the same quality of
> pianos for every market.
>
> RS
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> I realize this gray market issue comes up regularly, and if I was
> not
>> concerned about the issue and how is so sadly affects the
> cusotmers who buy
>> these pianos, I would not bother to reply.  I have 30 years
> experience
>> servicing pianos and have never seen a gray market piano equal in
>> performance or tone, the same piano made for the North American
> market.
>> Let's take the geography out of the argument and stick to the
> indoor climate
>> model.  In North America, people's homes can range from about 6%
> to 90%
>> relative humidity during the year.  If you were to leave a pile of
> wood
>> outddoors for 4 years, the moisture content of the wood would be
> around 12%.
>> Should you build a piano from this pile of wood and place it in a
> home where
>> the relative humidity stayed below 10% for many weeks, the piano
> would have
>> problems from shrinking.  However, if you first kiln dried that
> wood down to
>> 5% moisture content and built your piano, it would not warp in low
> humidity.
>>
>> The damage done to a gray market piano is done when there is too
> much
>> dryness.  Wood swells up in high humidity as you know because the
> pitch of
>> your piano is sharp during the summer.  When you turn on your
> furnace, the
>> pitch drips dramatically because the soundboard has shrunk, or
> flattened
>> out.  If you take your nice dried out 5% moisture soundboard, and
> expose it
>> to 80% RH, it will expand. Since it has nowhere to go, it grows
> (warps) with
>> a huge crown in the middle.  The cell structure of the wood
> compresses
>> usually near the glue lines and you can see the pressure ridges.
> Left
>> without climate control, those pressure ridges become the cracks
> in the
>> soundboard you see when the piano dries out.
>>
>> Think of a piece of wood like you would holding a handfull of
> straws.
>> Moisture can only leave through the ends of the straws, and not
> the sides.
>> Wood takes on moisture very quickly, but it takes about 6 weeks
> for it to
>> leave.  Since it can only leave through the end grain of the keys,
> action
>> parts, soundboards, etc. there is flexing or warping of the wood.
> Round
>> holes become oval shaped, so any metal pins will bind.  Cloth
> bushings in
>> the keys and action parts swell.  This causes sticking keys and
> notes that
>> return slowly.  Think of a popsicle stick thrown in your front
> lawn.  It was
>> straight when you finished your popsicle, but a week later laying
> around in
>> the sun, it can be quite warped and cracked.
>>
>> Over time, this changing of moisture content is very hard on
> pianos.  That
>> is why there are piano climate control systems that are helpful
> when people
>> move from Florida to Phoenix.  If you bought your piano in the
> U.S. you will
>> find under how to care for your piano, that the relative humidity
> should be
>> kept as constant as possible and probably around 42 to 50%.
>>
>> Kiln drying wood is very expensive as it requires a lot of energy
> and time.
>> Why put a piano through this expensive process when your market is
> a place
>> where the inside of buildings will remain fairly constant?  If no
> one in
>> your market needs to heat up a furnace during cold, snowy weather,
> why
>> bother to add twice the cost of manufacturing?  That is why
> different
>> factories around the world produce pianos for different markets -
> because
>> they are located in different indoor climate zones.
>>
>> People in Europe generally do not heat their homes as dry as North
> Americans
>> do because the temperatures outdoors were milder in winter.  I
> doubt some
>> people who live in some parts of Indonesia or Asia have ever seen
> snow.  So
>> why should they pay for a piano made from kiln dried wood?
>>
>> On the other hand, people who live in most of North America will
> be sadly
>> dissappointed with a piano that was not made from kiln dried
> wood.  They
>> will have intermittent sticking keys at best.  And it they
> purchased a
>> Disklavier with electronic parts that are not UL approved, they
> will have
>> trouble finding a supplier willing to risk a product safety
> lawsuit.  The
>> world of manufacturing wood products has changed significantly in
> the past
>> 30 years.  Acid rain has been decimating spruce forests.  The
> highest
>> bidders for premium lumber often turn it into paper.
> Environmental
>> protections dictate how many vapors are allowed to evaporate off
> the finish,
>> what glues do to worker's lungs, how wood sawdust from hardwoods
> can cause
>> cancer in woodworkers, or where a manufacturer may obtain the
> leather needed
>> to cushion piano actions.  The dyes in the wool felt and cloth
> also need to
>> be considered as they can react with air pollution to cause
> premature string
>> corrosion.
>>
>> You can argue forever about the fairness of servicing or the
> manufacturing
>> of pianos for different climate zones, but it comes down to
> reality
>> eventually.  If you live in North America, purchasing a gray
> market piano is
>> not in your best interest.
>>
>> Carol Beigel
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
>> To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:14 PM
>> Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners
> manual)
>>
>>
>> > Jakarata, Indonesia. They make baby grand for American market.
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry <groups@> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> rondisklavier wrote:
>> >> > Carol,
>> >> >
>> >> > I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my
>> >> > internship.
>> >> >
>> >> > I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano
>> > industry,
>> >> > I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for
>> >> > different market. It will cost them too much monies, in
>> > addition,
>> >> > Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing
> different
>> > way
>> >> > for different market is utterly impossible.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Ron - out of interest, where was the factory?
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> James
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>> >
>> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
>> > moderator, send it to:
>> > disklavier-owner@...
>> >
>> > To reach our group's web site go to:
>> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>> >
>> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too
> much mail,
>> > go the the web site and change your email delivery option
> instead.  That
>> > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the
> group.  If you
>> > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>> > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>> >
>> > Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>> > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date:
> 8/27/2007
>> > 6:20 PM
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 8/28/2007
> 4:29 PM
>
>

Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by JORGE FERNANDEZ

... I agree 100% whit Carol s statement. But, if someone decides to take the risk of purchasing a Yamaha gray market piano. Is it acceptable that Yamaha USA

Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by Carol Beigel

If Yamaha was one big global corporation, and not several regional ones, I could understand the insistence for global support. If they distrubued the same pianos and Disklaivers all over the world, I could understand the frustration. But this is not the case. U.S. Yamaha is a different corporation than Mexico or even Canada Yamaha. or Australia Yamaha, or Europe Yamaha. They ;all sell similiar, but not identical products.
Customer support is an expensive proposition. Yamanha U.S. hires people to work in their service department that have spent their careers working on pianos sold in the U.S. How in the world are they supposed to provide support for a product they have never seen? One whose manuals are written in a different language? Yamaha U.S. cannot give support for a product they know nothing about. They don't have manuals for pianos they never sold. They don't have wiring diagrams for parts they never saw. They cannot pay people to answer questions who don't know how to read Japanese. They don't carry spare parts that won't fit or work in pianos they never saw.
If I bought a Mercedes Benz in Germany it would not meet U.S. emmissions standards. If the engine in my car were made for owning the car in Germany, and I lived in the U.S. where those engines did not exist, should I expect my neighborhood dealer to stock parts or manuals for this engine they never saw?
This is not a resonable business model! You carry manuals and parts, and provide service tor the products you sell. Just because someone elsewhere in the world is selling a similiar product with the same brand name does not mean it is the same product. Why should you carry parts and manuals for a product you don't even sell?
Carol Beigel
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos

But, if someone decides to take the risk of purchasing a Yamaha gray market piano.

Is it acceptable that Yamaha USA (for example) rejects it and will not give support only for this reason?

I am not talking about warranty issues, which are acceptable.

But, not giving support?

Like advice, manuals, spare parts, etc.

Did you buy your item in USA? Get support in USA, not here. Even if the product is the same this side of the border or the other and the company has offices here and there.

Re: gray market pianos

2007-08-29 by rondisklavier

If a person purchased a gray pianos, YCA has the full right to not 
providing support. They must protect their market and also reduce 
the costs. Because Cost must related to the Revenue. YCA has no 
revenue from these gray market pianos, unless YCA can charge the 
regions where these gray market pianos came.  

Regarding similar but not identical, I need more proof on this. I 
will prove myself when I return to Asia, I will take pictures of the 
inside of Disklavier there. I usually will stop in several countries 
so that I will have enough samples to prove whether they are 
identical or not. Until then, I cannot provide additional proofs 
pertaining to this matter. I really hope that my disklavier which 
was made for American market is really different from those of in 
Asia. By the way, I have lived in America (MidWest) for more than 16 
years so I know the harsh weather in this area. 

Carol, thanks for the inside and it is very helpful. I really 
appreciate your comments and enjoy the discussions.

RS




--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...> 
wrote:
>
> If Yamaha was one big global corporation, and not several regional 
ones, I could understand the insistence for global support.  If they 
distrubued the same pianos and Disklaivers all over the world, I 
could understand the frustration.  But this is not the case.  U.S. 
Yamaha is a different corporation than Mexico or even Canada Yamaha. 
or Australia Yamaha, or Europe Yamaha.  They all sell similiar, but 
not identical products.  
> 
> Customer support is an expensive proposition.  Yamanha U.S. hires 
people to work in their service department that have spent their 
careers working on pianos sold in the U.S.  How in the world are 
they supposed to provide support for a product they have never 
seen?  One whose manuals are written in a different language?  
Yamaha U.S. cannot give support for a product they know nothing 
about. They don't have manuals for pianos they never sold.  They 
don't have wiring diagrams for parts they never saw.  They cannot 
pay people to answer questions who don't know how to read Japanese.  
They don't carry spare parts that won't fit or work in pianos they 
never saw.
> 
> If I bought a Mercedes Benz in Germany it would not meet U.S. 
emmissions standards.  If the engine in my car were made for owning 
the car in Germany, and I lived in the U.S. where those engines did 
not exist, should I expect my neighborhood dealer to stock parts or 
manuals for this engine they never saw?
> 
> This is not a resonable business model!  You carry manuals and 
parts, and provide service tor the products you sell.  Just because 
someone elsewhere in the world is selling a similiar product with 
the same brand name does not mean it is the same product.  Why 
should you carry parts and manuals for a product you don't even sell?
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: JORGE FERNANDEZ 
>   To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:07 PM
>   Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market pianos
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     But, if someone decides to take the risk of purchasing a 
Yamaha gray market piano.
>   Is it acceptable that Yamaha USA (for example) rejects it and 
will not give support only for this reason?
> 
>   I am not talking about warranty issues, which are acceptable.
> 
>   But, not giving support?
> 
>   Like advice, manuals, spare parts, etc.
> 
>   Did you buy your item in USA? Get support in USA, not here. Even 
if the product is the same this side of the border or the other and 
the company has offices here and there.
>

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.