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Keeping track of "source material"...

Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-14 by ss

I'm finding that especially with Melodyne Studio now that keeping  
track of "source material"
is becoming increasingly difficult!

After something goes into Melodyne and I have multiple arrangements it  
is so easy to lose track
of the original sound material that was the source of some of the end  
product that I'm having
to design custom sheets to track the work through its phases.

Anybody else finding this to be the case with your work?

I started with regular cue sheets (Excel) and redesigned them.

I keep thinking of that lawsuit where that musician sued the "Beastie  
Boys" and won
over "performance" in the three note sample rather than the sampled  
notes themselves!

I never "rip", but it makes one wonder about material and where it  
goes and where
it comes from these days!  :-)  A friend of mine uses a Ringo Star  
Beatles drum-hit
over and over again in his work.  He loves that particular hit!



***************************************
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to  
serve -

Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal."  -- Jean Racine (1669)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by Elk Latham

everything I do with software instruments some how end up in hardware sampler as well.




________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: ss <ssws1@earthlink.net>
To: emax@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:00:31 PM
Subject: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...





I'm finding that especially with Melodyne Studio now that keeping 
track of "source material"
is becoming increasingly difficult!

After something goes into Melodyne and I have multiple arrangements it 
is so easy to lose track
of the original sound material that was the source of some of the end 
product that I'm having
to design custom sheets to track the work through its phases.

Anybody else finding this to be the case with your work?

I started with regular cue sheets (Excel) and redesigned them.

I keep thinking of that lawsuit where that musician sued the "Beastie 
Boys" and won
over "performance" in the three note sample rather than the sampled 
notes themselves!

I never "rip", but it makes one wonder about material and where it 
goes and where
it comes from these days! :-) A friend of mine uses a Ringo Star 
Beatles drum-hit
over and over again in his work. He loves that particular hit!

************ ********* ********* *********
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to 
serve -

Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by ss

Yes, Elk and I'm trying to understand this...But in every case it is  
different, a different situation.
With Emax, for example, it is the filters, the dithering, the ability  
to loop highly complex material
that would be impossible to do in Peak or other software programs, and  
the soft attacks and decays
I get from the envelope generators and other analog parts of the  
instrument.

It is very interesting talking with some FL Studio users, for example,  
who curse at me and call me
an "old timer" and ignorant because "everything that used to be done  
with hardware can now be
done with plugins and FL Studio".  Well, I didn't hang-out with these  
guys for very long I can tell
you, Elk.  Trying to discuss this with them was pointless.  And a  
friend of mine said simply: "They're
zealots and wont listen to a word anybody says!"

I've worked very hard to replicate "tape-saturation" in my work by  
using any number of tricks and
tools.  I'm really big on tape-saturation because I had a system where  
the EIII or Emax was connected
to an 8-Track mixer and then went stereo-out to a Nagra that was  
custom-built.  Quite often I'd flip
the chain around and takes recorded on the Nagra would be re-recorded  
back into the EIII and then
re-designed further.

My mixer and Nagra were super quiet!  No noise build-up.  So I could  
do this.

So my method would be, and still is, multiple 24-track mixes each  
mixed-down to stereo two-track
mixes and then in the end the multiple stereo two-track mixes are all  
loaded and a final mix-down
is done.

This process adds to the need to be able to keep track of source  
material because in the end it can
become very difficult years later to remember what and where that  
source sample came from....

As a rule I'm burning lots of discs and putting notes with them and  
storing them away.

With the Emax I found that I was taking the source recording many  
times and processing it
through multiple effects-boxes before it went into the Emax.  Then on  
the way out to the
mixer it went though another chain of boxes before being recorded.

Now things at every stage of the game right from the working with the  
raw and unprocessed
source material everything is going into Melodyne Studio and I'm  
working with it.

Melodyne Studio after all I'm realizing is a sampler!  I never thought  
about it that way, but in
general the limitations that I ran into years ago with Emax can now be  
solved with Melodyne
before it goes into Emax!  :-)  It is wonderful -- incredible!  I  
cannot recommend it enough as
a tool for work with Emax because of the limitations of 1 MG of RAM,  
etc.

I have the Emax HD SE so unlike some lucky folks who were able to snag  
an Emax II I am limited
to that 1 MG of RAM which makes one become very creative to get around  
problems I must say!  :-)

The Melodyne PlugIn solves a lot of problems from the outset.  People  
don't have to shell-out for
the Studio version, although I would strongly recommend it because you  
will use it -- believe me!
Unlimited tracks, "unlimited undos", the ability to produce all of  
those arrangements on the fly and
then just re-arrange things again.

And I can design the sound for that 1 MG RAM limitation from the  
outset!  :-)  This makes me very
happy!

[Also, I am not a "shill" for Celemony who make the Melodyne  
Software.  I just got involved with
them from the start of their company in hopes of solving a serious and  
horrible problem with a
piece of music I had worked on for two, almost three, years and had to  
throw-out. That's how
I discovered the software.  It didn't solve my problem, but in  
learning about the software it opened
all of these doors for me creatively that I am still exploring daily  
and discovering new applications
for the software and the tools in it -- more than I have the time and  
life to explore and work with!
It's like the Spectrum Synthesis and Transform Multiplication in SE:   
you sit for hours pursuing
a path while it processes in that 1 MG of RAM!  Now with Melodyne  
designing everything on the
front-end for Emax's limitations Emax is far far more powerful for me  
than it was before!  I love
creating a beat with the Spectrum engine and then working with the  
loop in ReCycle and exporting-out
and into Melodyne and changing everything around -- all of the  
pitches, layering the melodic
lines of it, and changing the percussive elements of the SE beat!   
It's just fantastic!  Also I can
really create rhythmic loops with beats at the loop-points without  
artifacts or distortion when
altering pitch, or length, etc.!]

Hardware is important for many reasons.

You know I was just looking at Dave Smith's Prophet 8 and how I want  
to snag one of those
before they disappear!  Those synths are like Porches of the synth  
world!  And the combination
with Emax is perfect, really!  Just like the Access Virus and Emax  
combination's results. Perfect!
Great beats, great strings, great loops!  [Don't like the TI's,  
though! Like "Polar"...]

What other hardware are you using, Elk?

Now that I cannot get tape any longer the Nagra is gone from the setup  
for good in my world.



On 14 Jul 2009, at 21:30, Elk Latham wrote:

>
> everything I do with software instruments some how end up in  
> hardware sampler as well.




***************************************
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to  
serve -

Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal."  -- Jean Racine (1669)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by jammie

i use the comp for sound design and editing samples then i dump them back to hardware for the synth section and analog filtering 

the reason virus strings sound warm are the multi saw oscillators these oscillators are single cycle wave forms i have emulated some using csound

ill post some on the furom site ill do them a 3 cycles long then ill loop the middle 1 for you they will be in the key of aas its a nice equal number system for the computer to compute a4 being 100 samples to 1 single cycle wave 

these samples will only take up 1-2k each and you can have hundreds on 1 floppy

soft samplers make you lazy in the fact that when wanting a resonant sweep sound they same the instrument that does it which makes the sample static for resweeping with out restarting the sample 

were as you can synthesis it on an emax and can change the sweep any way you like in real time with use of the onboard modulaters with out having to restart the sample by pressing a key 

thats the difference in hardware and software its the limitations that make you more creative 

becuse you use programming to get the sound to perform instead of say the gigabyte piano in giga studio thats been sampled at massive long takes 

the perfect piano from ensoniq was only 1 mb in size and sounds sweet thats the difference you can get outstanding sounds with little memory and programming i use an ensoniq mirage which has only 2 banks of 64k but drums sound wicked on it coupled with its digital distortion of the oscillators and the analog filters its in the programming

the key to being different is experimentation and programming and single cycle waves
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Elk Latham 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...





  everything I do with software instruments some how end up in hardware sampler as well.

  ________________________________
  From: ss <ssws1@...>
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:00:31 PM
  Subject: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

  I'm finding that especially with Melodyne Studio now that keeping 
  track of "source material"
  is becoming increasingly difficult!

  After something goes into Melodyne and I have multiple arrangements it 
  is so easy to lose track
  of the original sound material that was the source of some of the end 
  product that I'm having
  to design custom sheets to track the work through its phases.

  Anybody else finding this to be the case with your work?

  I started with regular cue sheets (Excel) and redesigned them.

  I keep thinking of that lawsuit where that musician sued the "Beastie 
  Boys" and won
  over "performance" in the three note sample rather than the sampled 
  notes themselves!

  I never "rip", but it makes one wonder about material and where it 
  goes and where
  it comes from these days! :-) A friend of mine uses a Ringo Star 
  Beatles drum-hit
  over and over again in his work. He loves that particular hit!

  ************ ********* ********* *********
  - This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to 
  serve -

  Truth does not fear investigation.

  "There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.14/2238 - Release Date: 07/14/09 18:03:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by jammie

thats why they sound like every other fl studio user 

a lot of people dont remember most of the best stuff was created on analog 8 track tape and played live dubbed then overdubbed

janet jacksons first album was produced using analog synths and a mirage and sounded dirty and great 

dep mode there best stuff of the 80,s-90,s was using emaxes

pink floyd they used kurzweil k2000,s 

computers are unreliable especialy for live work 

i have 30 samplers that i can load up and play at the same time you cant do that with a software sampler  you run out of processor speeds and to have the same equivelant you would need 30 comps with emulatorx hardware and software to even sound remotely as good as the hardware

and im picking up hardware cheaper than a piece of software just picked up a yamaha s3000 with zip100 drive and library for £51 + postage of £16.99

the zip100 sell for £15-25 

an emax1 se hd keyboard just sold for £120 on ebay in excelant condition and EII are going for £100-300

i think its good to have both soft and hardware as you have best of both worlds and you can use comp for speed and the hardware for musicality as they are designed as musical instruments 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ss 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...





  Yes, Elk and I'm trying to understand this...But in every case it is 
  different, a different situation.
  With Emax, for example, it is the filters, the dithering, the ability 
  to loop highly complex material
  that would be impossible to do in Peak or other software programs, and 
  the soft attacks and decays
  I get from the envelope generators and other analog parts of the 
  instrument.

  It is very interesting talking with some FL Studio users, for example, 
  who curse at me and call me
  an "old timer" and ignorant because "everything that used to be done 
  with hardware can now be
  done with plugins and FL Studio". Well, I didn't hang-out with these 
  guys for very long I can tell
  you, Elk. Trying to discuss this with them was pointless. And a 
  friend of mine said simply: "They're
  zealots and wont listen to a word anybody says!"

  I've worked very hard to replicate "tape-saturation" in my work by 
  using any number of tricks and
  tools. I'm really big on tape-saturation because I had a system where 
  the EIII or Emax was connected
  to an 8-Track mixer and then went stereo-out to a Nagra that was 
  custom-built. Quite often I'd flip
  the chain around and takes recorded on the Nagra would be re-recorded 
  back into the EIII and then
  re-designed further.

  My mixer and Nagra were super quiet! No noise build-up. So I could 
  do this.

  So my method would be, and still is, multiple 24-track mixes each 
  mixed-down to stereo two-track
  mixes and then in the end the multiple stereo two-track mixes are all 
  loaded and a final mix-down
  is done.

  This process adds to the need to be able to keep track of source 
  material because in the end it can
  become very difficult years later to remember what and where that 
  source sample came from....

  As a rule I'm burning lots of discs and putting notes with them and 
  storing them away.

  With the Emax I found that I was taking the source recording many 
  times and processing it
  through multiple effects-boxes before it went into the Emax. Then on 
  the way out to the
  mixer it went though another chain of boxes before being recorded.

  Now things at every stage of the game right from the working with the 
  raw and unprocessed
  source material everything is going into Melodyne Studio and I'm 
  working with it.

  Melodyne Studio after all I'm realizing is a sampler! I never thought 
  about it that way, but in
  general the limitations that I ran into years ago with Emax can now be 
  solved with Melodyne
  before it goes into Emax! :-) It is wonderful -- incredible! I 
  cannot recommend it enough as
  a tool for work with Emax because of the limitations of 1 MG of RAM, 
  etc.

  I have the Emax HD SE so unlike some lucky folks who were able to snag 
  an Emax II I am limited
  to that 1 MG of RAM which makes one become very creative to get around 
  problems I must say! :-)

  The Melodyne PlugIn solves a lot of problems from the outset. People 
  don't have to shell-out for
  the Studio version, although I would strongly recommend it because you 
  will use it -- believe me!
  Unlimited tracks, "unlimited undos", the ability to produce all of 
  those arrangements on the fly and
  then just re-arrange things again.

  And I can design the sound for that 1 MG RAM limitation from the 
  outset! :-) This makes me very
  happy!

  [Also, I am not a "shill" for Celemony who make the Melodyne 
  Software. I just got involved with
  them from the start of their company in hopes of solving a serious and 
  horrible problem with a
  piece of music I had worked on for two, almost three, years and had to 
  throw-out. That's how
  I discovered the software. It didn't solve my problem, but in 
  learning about the software it opened
  all of these doors for me creatively that I am still exploring daily 
  and discovering new applications
  for the software and the tools in it -- more than I have the time and 
  life to explore and work with!
  It's like the Spectrum Synthesis and Transform Multiplication in SE: 
  you sit for hours pursuing
  a path while it processes in that 1 MG of RAM! Now with Melodyne 
  designing everything on the
  front-end for Emax's limitations Emax is far far more powerful for me 
  than it was before! I love
  creating a beat with the Spectrum engine and then working with the 
  loop in ReCycle and exporting-out
  and into Melodyne and changing everything around -- all of the 
  pitches, layering the melodic
  lines of it, and changing the percussive elements of the SE beat! 
  It's just fantastic! Also I can
  really create rhythmic loops with beats at the loop-points without 
  artifacts or distortion when
  altering pitch, or length, etc.!]

  Hardware is important for many reasons.

  You know I was just looking at Dave Smith's Prophet 8 and how I want 
  to snag one of those
  before they disappear! Those synths are like Porches of the synth 
  world! And the combination
  with Emax is perfect, really! Just like the Access Virus and Emax 
  combination's results. Perfect!
  Great beats, great strings, great loops! [Don't like the TI's, 
  though! Like "Polar"...]

  What other hardware are you using, Elk?

  Now that I cannot get tape any longer the Nagra is gone from the setup 
  for good in my world.

  On 14 Jul 2009, at 21:30, Elk Latham wrote:

  >
  > everything I do with software instruments some how end up in 
  > hardware sampler as well.

  ***************************************
  - This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to 
  serve -

  Truth does not fear investigation.

  "There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.14/2238 - Release Date: 07/14/09 18:03:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by ss

I agree completely, Jammie!

This is exactly what is wrong with the Ableton Live instruments. You  
hit the nail on the head, my man!  :-)

Have you thought about creating a group of samples to sell to Ableton,  
for example?  IMHO they need some
help right now!

My Prophet VS relies on those single-cycle waveforms for it's stunning  
sound!

But Jamie?  Remember the Fairlight and the use of slices across the  
time-domain?  That's where the small,
single-cycle limitation concerns me.  I can use the hardware  
processing of the constant cycle, but I'm also
looking for some way to have interpolation across the time-domain, say  
from each single cycle to the next
in a smooth momentum...?

You may have just hit the nail on the head for Max/MSP limitations,  
too!  For the most part I hear nothing but
NOISE coming out of Max/MSP -- absurd, ridiculous, nonsense and  
atonality that is not dissonant -- it is out right
discomfort and as I said NOISE by the "artists" I hear who are using  
it.  Could this be solved with single cycle
waves I wonder?  In many cases the raw source going into Max/MSP has  
been very harmonically rich, but I'm
thinking it's the fault also of the modulators too perhaps?

I have more experience with Reaktor than with Max/MSP but now that  
Ableton has tried to put life back into LIVE
by incorporating Max/MSP with Live I'm wondering...

I'm not a fan of the software instruments in Live or in Max/MSP and  
would only use them on a plane flight to Dubai!
30 hours with nothing to do!!!   ;-)

:-)

You're doing this with cSound too, eh!?  That's seriously intense,  
Jammie!  And yes I'd love to see what I could do
with those waveforms in Live and in Melodyne even!  Are you on the  
cSound list that's run out of Bath in the UK?

I'd like to hear more about how you use the "sweep":  I'm not sure  
exactly what you mean by that...  Can you be
more specific?  I'm coming-in late to the conversations on the list,  
but I hope bringing in some new material.


The Ensoniq was a classic but people around me didn't know how to use  
it and it sounded like a buzz-saw or a
vacuum cleaner and that was one of the reasons I bought an Emax was  
because of bad experiences, poor implementation
of the Ensoniq.

With the VS it's done for you.  And the smooth movement between  
waveforms can be done via programming or using the
joy-stick in real-time on the VS between the four oscillators.

Great points as always!  Thank you!  Yes, please I'd like to see if I  
can develop some waves of my own using the Ableton tools
to give them validity in my experience!  :-)

Single cycle waves are the essence of purity in one sense for great  
source material, no doubt about it.

On 15 Jul 2009, at 00:37, jammie wrote:

>
> i use the comp for sound design and editing samples then i dump them  
> back to hardware for the synth section and analog filtering
>
> the reason virus strings sound warm are the multi saw oscillators  
> these oscillators are single cycle wave forms i have emulated some  
> using csound
>
> ill post some on the furom site ill do them a 3 cycles long then ill  
> loop the middle 1 for you they will be in the key of aas its a nice  
> equal number system for the computer to compute a4 being 100 samples  
> to 1 single cycle wave
>
> these samples will only take up 1-2k each and you can have hundreds  
> on 1 floppy
>
> soft samplers make you lazy in the fact that when wanting a resonant  
> sweep sound they same the instrument that does it which makes the  
> sample static for resweeping with out restarting the sample
>
> were as you can synthesis it on an emax and can change the sweep any  
> way you like in real time with use of the onboard modulaters with  
> out having to restart the sample by pressing a key
>
> thats the difference in hardware and software its the limitations  
> that make you more creative
>
> becuse you use programming to get the sound to perform instead of  
> say the gigabyte piano in giga studio thats been sampled at massive  
> long takes
>
> the perfect piano from ensoniq was only 1 mb in size and sounds  
> sweet thats the difference you can get outstanding sounds with  
> little memory and programming i use an ensoniq mirage which has only  
> 2 banks of 64k but drums sound wicked on it coupled with its digital  
> distortion of the oscillators and the analog filters its in the  
> programming
>
> the key to being different is experimentation and programming and  
> single cycle waves




***************************************
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to  
serve -

Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal."  -- Jean Racine (1669)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by ss

The FL Studio crowd is a "cult" of sorts.  They are very young, have
not had exposure and/or experience, have never had their hands on
and analog synth I found, and had no money to buy a synth or access
to one and they were very angry and vengeful because of it.

Everything for them could be solved with a PlugIn.  And the NI Pro 53
is a great software synth!  But it is weird when I power mine on, and  
it's
like it's alive! --I don't know how else to describe it!  That's why  
I'm stopping
dead and snagging one of Dave Smith's Prophet 8's before they vanish
because when my Prophet 5 dies I'm afraid it's going to go down for  
good!
Sequential asked me the last time I had business with them: "Are you  
sure?"
Meaning:  are you sure you want to spend that kind of money on a synth
that's time is almost up!  Dave Smith also has the fantastic software  
for
designing and the librarian software for recalling patches, etc!  Bravo!

Yes, the FL Studio crowd needs to get experience in a real recording  
studio
and with tape and analog synths and gear or they're never going to get a
broad, full sound in their pieces.

All of the composer's works do all sound the same!  It's terrible!
And they have this fascist element running through everything!   
LOL!!  :-)

On 15 Jul 2009, at 00:54, jammie wrote:

>
>
> thats why they sound like every other fl studio user
>




***************************************
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to  
serve -

Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal."  -- Jean Racine (1669)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by jammie

theres only 3 samplers that can perform the single cycle wave modulation and thats ensoniq eps16+ asr10 and asr-x

they are called transwaves and you use single cycle waves upto 128 and use interpolation to get from 1 single cycle to the next so you can have radical change

the good thing about this is the mod wheel can sweep through these cycles 1 at a time so you can have radical changes in timbre from a tiny file 

ensoniq implimented this becuase they went digital with there filters and had no resonance so they designed transwaves with single cycles that added resonance in the upper ctcles 

this way the could emulate a resonant sweeping filter through programming of the synth with out expensive analog filters

ill post 1 in the files section so you can get an idea they are like spectral syntheasis sounds but you can move through the sample rather than playing just the sample like in the emax

if your into hardware and get a chance to own an eps16+ then transwave synthesis is a great media to utilise 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ss 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...





  I agree completely, Jammie!

  This is exactly what is wrong with the Ableton Live instruments. You 
  hit the nail on the head, my man! :-)

  Have you thought about creating a group of samples to sell to Ableton, 
  for example? IMHO they need some
  help right now!

  My Prophet VS relies on those single-cycle waveforms for it's stunning 
  sound!

  But Jamie? Remember the Fairlight and the use of slices across the 
  time-domain? That's where the small,
  single-cycle limitation concerns me. I can use the hardware 
  processing of the constant cycle, but I'm also
  looking for some way to have interpolation across the time-domain, say 
  from each single cycle to the next
  in a smooth momentum...?

  You may have just hit the nail on the head for Max/MSP limitations, 
  too! For the most part I hear nothing but
  NOISE coming out of Max/MSP -- absurd, ridiculous, nonsense and 
  atonality that is not dissonant -- it is out right
  discomfort and as I said NOISE by the "artists" I hear who are using 
  it. Could this be solved with single cycle
  waves I wonder? In many cases the raw source going into Max/MSP has 
  been very harmonically rich, but I'm
  thinking it's the fault also of the modulators too perhaps?

  I have more experience with Reaktor than with Max/MSP but now that 
  Ableton has tried to put life back into LIVE
  by incorporating Max/MSP with Live I'm wondering...

  I'm not a fan of the software instruments in Live or in Max/MSP and 
  would only use them on a plane flight to Dubai!
  30 hours with nothing to do!!! ;-)

  :-)

  You're doing this with cSound too, eh!? That's seriously intense, 
  Jammie! And yes I'd love to see what I could do
  with those waveforms in Live and in Melodyne even! Are you on the 
  cSound list that's run out of Bath in the UK?

  I'd like to hear more about how you use the "sweep": I'm not sure 
  exactly what you mean by that... Can you be
  more specific? I'm coming-in late to the conversations on the list, 
  but I hope bringing in some new material.

  The Ensoniq was a classic but people around me didn't know how to use 
  it and it sounded like a buzz-saw or a
  vacuum cleaner and that was one of the reasons I bought an Emax was 
  because of bad experiences, poor implementation
  of the Ensoniq.

  With the VS it's done for you. And the smooth movement between 
  waveforms can be done via programming or using the
  joy-stick in real-time on the VS between the four oscillators.

  Great points as always! Thank you! Yes, please I'd like to see if I 
  can develop some waves of my own using the Ableton tools
  to give them validity in my experience! :-)

  Single cycle waves are the essence of purity in one sense for great 
  source material, no doubt about it.

  On 15 Jul 2009, at 00:37, jammie wrote:

  >
  > i use the comp for sound design and editing samples then i dump them 
  > back to hardware for the synth section and analog filtering
  >
  > the reason virus strings sound warm are the multi saw oscillators 
  > these oscillators are single cycle wave forms i have emulated some 
  > using csound
  >
  > ill post some on the furom site ill do them a 3 cycles long then ill 
  > loop the middle 1 for you they will be in the key of aas its a nice 
  > equal number system for the computer to compute a4 being 100 samples 
  > to 1 single cycle wave
  >
  > these samples will only take up 1-2k each and you can have hundreds 
  > on 1 floppy
  >
  > soft samplers make you lazy in the fact that when wanting a resonant 
  > sweep sound they same the instrument that does it which makes the 
  > sample static for resweeping with out restarting the sample
  >
  > were as you can synthesis it on an emax and can change the sweep any 
  > way you like in real time with use of the onboard modulaters with 
  > out having to restart the sample by pressing a key
  >
  > thats the difference in hardware and software its the limitations 
  > that make you more creative
  >
  > becuse you use programming to get the sound to perform instead of 
  > say the gigabyte piano in giga studio thats been sampled at massive 
  > long takes
  >
  > the perfect piano from ensoniq was only 1 mb in size and sounds 
  > sweet thats the difference you can get outstanding sounds with 
  > little memory and programming i use an ensoniq mirage which has only 
  > 2 banks of 64k but drums sound wicked on it coupled with its digital 
  > distortion of the oscillators and the analog filters its in the 
  > programming
  >
  > the key to being different is experimentation and programming and 
  > single cycle waves

  ***************************************
  - This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to 
  serve -

  Truth does not fear investigation.

  "There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  


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Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by jammie

as long as the analog chips dont die fuixing the prophit 5 is not a problem usually just changing the odd cap
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ss 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...





  The FL Studio crowd is a "cult" of sorts. They are very young, have
  not had exposure and/or experience, have never had their hands on
  and analog synth I found, and had no money to buy a synth or access
  to one and they were very angry and vengeful because of it.

  Everything for them could be solved with a PlugIn. And the NI Pro 53
  is a great software synth! But it is weird when I power mine on, and 
  it's
  like it's alive! --I don't know how else to describe it! That's why 
  I'm stopping
  dead and snagging one of Dave Smith's Prophet 8's before they vanish
  because when my Prophet 5 dies I'm afraid it's going to go down for 
  good!
  Sequential asked me the last time I had business with them: "Are you 
  sure?"
  Meaning: are you sure you want to spend that kind of money on a synth
  that's time is almost up! Dave Smith also has the fantastic software 
  for
  designing and the librarian software for recalling patches, etc! Bravo!

  Yes, the FL Studio crowd needs to get experience in a real recording 
  studio
  and with tape and analog synths and gear or they're never going to get a
  broad, full sound in their pieces.

  All of the composer's works do all sound the same! It's terrible!
  And they have this fascist element running through everything! 
  LOL!! :-)

  On 15 Jul 2009, at 00:54, jammie wrote:

  >
  >
  > thats why they sound like every other fl studio user
  >

  ***************************************
  - This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to 
  serve -

  Truth does not fear investigation.

  "There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  


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  Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.14/2238 - Release Date: 07/14/09 18:03:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by jammie

thats why when they hear a sound and wonder how to do it and dont know look on there furoms they want the hoover sound of the alpha juno,s but want to do it in fl but cant i tell them to buy the synth or sample 1 that some 1 has but no they want to do it with there synths in fl stiudio

they will never any good they just use the patches created for them and wonder why they all sound the same
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ss 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...





  The FL Studio crowd is a "cult" of sorts. They are very young, have
  not had exposure and/or experience, have never had their hands on
  and analog synth I found, and had no money to buy a synth or access
  to one and they were very angry and vengeful because of it.

  Everything for them could be solved with a PlugIn. And the NI Pro 53
  is a great software synth! But it is weird when I power mine on, and 
  it's
  like it's alive! --I don't know how else to describe it! That's why 
  I'm stopping
  dead and snagging one of Dave Smith's Prophet 8's before they vanish
  because when my Prophet 5 dies I'm afraid it's going to go down for 
  good!
  Sequential asked me the last time I had business with them: "Are you 
  sure?"
  Meaning: are you sure you want to spend that kind of money on a synth
  that's time is almost up! Dave Smith also has the fantastic software 
  for
  designing and the librarian software for recalling patches, etc! Bravo!

  Yes, the FL Studio crowd needs to get experience in a real recording 
  studio
  and with tape and analog synths and gear or they're never going to get a
  broad, full sound in their pieces.

  All of the composer's works do all sound the same! It's terrible!
  And they have this fascist element running through everything! 
  LOL!! :-)

  On 15 Jul 2009, at 00:54, jammie wrote:

  >
  >
  > thats why they sound like every other fl studio user
  >

  ***************************************
  - This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to 
  serve -

  Truth does not fear investigation.

  "There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.14/2238 - Release Date: 07/14/09 18:03:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by ss

On 15 Jul 2009, at 00:54, jammie wrote:

>
> a lot of people dont remember most of the best stuff was created on  
> analog 8 track tape and played live dubbed then overdubbed

Exactly.  Like the Beatles on the Teac 4 & 8 track machines.  The  
Beatles have never sounded anything but brilliant.  Ageless.

>
> janet jacksons first album was produced using analog synths and a  
> mirage and sounded dirty and great

Right!  And Jimmy-Jam brought-in the NED Synclavier as I remember at  
one point, but that was later in the game...
I remember how "Control" just ripped through the music scene.  She  
picked the best people.

Dirty and great is best!  "SexyBack" by Timberlake is really dirty  
sounding (no pun intended here!) and it's very effective.
That production value was a choice and was created, too.

>
> dep mode there best stuff of the 80,s-90,s was using emaxes

I think they were doing more design on Emaxes than anybody is saying.   
"Violator" really has that Emax sound all
the way through it, sans Gore's guitar overpowering everything else.

>
> pink floyd they used kurzweil k2000,s

I thought their best use ever was the EMS Synthi on "Dark Side of the  
Moon"  It's extremely simple
but the power is in the EMS Synthi.  Being in the USA I only had  
access to the ARPs and Moogs and
among the Americans to use the EMS were Todd Rundgren who squeezed  
every drop out of it one could get
on "Something Anything" and "Wizard a True Star".  The best effects  
were always the EMS synthi combined
with variable tape speed.  Then there was the classic use of Pete  
Townsend running the Hammond organ chords
through the filter and gate of the EMS Synthi on the opening of "Won't  
get fooled again!"
You know, I sat in front of an ARP 2600 for hours thinking:  "How did  
Townsend get that sound out of the 2600's
sample & hold!  It's horrific!"  He didn't!!  That's the answer!  It  
sounds like a synth, but it's the Hammond! Great trick!
I could never get my hands on the EMS Snythis here in the States!  It  
drove me mad!  Lucky we had the Oberheim's though!

>
> computers are unreliable especialy for live work

A very, very good point.  And difficult to control, too.  Any  
performer, a DJ, has to have a backup laptop
if they're going to be using Live for a gig for example.  MacBookPros  
can take a hell of a beating, but on
the road is too much to ask.

>
> i have 30 samplers that i can load up and play at the same time you  
> cant do that with a software sampler you run out of processor speeds  
> and to have the same equivelant you would need 30 comps with  
> emulatorx hardware and software to even sound remotely as good as  
> the hardware

Really fine point.  And I remember all of the "Pros" telling me to  
dump all of my keyboards on the used marked and replace with a laptop  
as they
did, and now they are really eating their words.  They are using field  
recording gear for source material and trying to craft and shape new  
waves
from that material, and they're jealous and mad as hell at people who  
didn't dump their gear because they were so stupid to do it!

I've never really been able to "scrub" with a computer with the feel  
and speed of using my hands on tape or 35mm mag film and locate
a slice point so easily...

As we all know, Kontakt doesn't replace an Emax.  They're two  
different animals entirely -- any comparison is pointless.

Jammie -- any Synthi or EMS gear there in your house in all that gear  
some place???  :-)

>
> and im picking up hardware cheaper than a piece of software just  
> picked up a yamaha s3000 with zip100 drive and library for £51 +  
> postage of £16.99
>
> the zip100 sell for £15-25
>
> an emax1 se hd keyboard just sold for £120 on ebay in excelant  
> condition and EII are going for £100-300

If anybody ever sees one of the few EIV keyboards appear for sale I  
hope you'll post it to the list!  They only made a few from what I
understand and demand was dismal to non-existent.  Nice to hear that  
some of this gear is still available out there some place...

>
> i think its good to have both soft and hardware as you have best of  
> both worlds and you can use comp for speed and the hardware for  
> musicality as they are designed as musical instruments

Exactly.  This was the point I made on the FL Studio BBS years ago.   
They have no concept of a "musical instrument" and that something
was designed to be "played" and not mimicked -- the VSTi's do drop  
many times to the point of self-ridicule and FL STUDIO can be just
another video game.  Or, in the hands of somebody who knows how to  
grasp the power of the tool, it can really roar with intense and
unique sound.

Time and again, though, I've met kids who've become professionals who  
started-out initially with "Fruity-Loops" and an old broken-down PC and
then added-on one PlugIn at a time and built-up this whole arsenal of  
tricks but ended-up jumping-into Cubase (still using FL Studio via  
ReWire)
but Cubase became their main environment and then they started  
collecting old gear and new synths.

One of the problems with the energy surrounding that whole Image-line  
crowd is that there are a lot of sharks there that are making a lot of  
cash
selling PlugIns to a lot of inexperienced kids -- and that's their  
game.  And it really is like a game -- one big Video Game.  It's too  
bad.  FL Studio
has a lot of power and people don't exploit that part of the tool.

Thanks for the fine comments and wise points, Jammie!

Since were on this point of hardware vs software what do you think of  
the Virus software synth with the hardware board that powers it?
I own the last revision of the Virus C rack/desktop, and one ProTools  
user I know was just shaking his head and saying I was foolish to
not go the PlugIn soft-hard combo Virus synth.  But I had reasons for  
not going the route and getting the C rack.  But I recently saw the
sofware PlugIn and it's really a different animal from what I could  
see:  it's really streamlined-down to be a Trance/Dance synth, I think.
Now that would have the power to perform with the hardware board to  
back it up!  Had any experience with that one by chance...?

The TI's just sound like severe aliasing and low resolution sound!   
Horrible!  Not worth the price at all.


***************************************
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to  
serve -

Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal."  -- Jean Racine (1669)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by jammie

the multi samples are up use them in the 2 layers with 2 different filter settings and 1 use the arp on it the other use a long envelope on the filter to sweep it

instant vangellis i have thousands of these single cycle waves so have unlimited sound capabilities i make fm /additive /analog/phase distortion grains 

a grain is basically a single cycle wav but in spectra

then take a look in the transwave 1 thats made up of 128 single cycle waves and i used 4 varying square waves in different locations and interpolated between each which gives you the morph sound then i added a resonant envelope in the time domain to add the resonant sweep 

this can be wave modulated in an eps16+ to any one of the 128 single cycles
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ss 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...





  I agree completely, Jammie!

  This is exactly what is wrong with the Ableton Live instruments. You 
  hit the nail on the head, my man! :-)

  Have you thought about creating a group of samples to sell to Ableton, 
  for example? IMHO they need some
  help right now!

  My Prophet VS relies on those single-cycle waveforms for it's stunning 
  sound!

  But Jamie? Remember the Fairlight and the use of slices across the 
  time-domain? That's where the small,
  single-cycle limitation concerns me. I can use the hardware 
  processing of the constant cycle, but I'm also
  looking for some way to have interpolation across the time-domain, say 
  from each single cycle to the next
  in a smooth momentum...?

  You may have just hit the nail on the head for Max/MSP limitations, 
  too! For the most part I hear nothing but
  NOISE coming out of Max/MSP -- absurd, ridiculous, nonsense and 
  atonality that is not dissonant -- it is out right
  discomfort and as I said NOISE by the "artists" I hear who are using 
  it. Could this be solved with single cycle
  waves I wonder? In many cases the raw source going into Max/MSP has 
  been very harmonically rich, but I'm
  thinking it's the fault also of the modulators too perhaps?

  I have more experience with Reaktor than with Max/MSP but now that 
  Ableton has tried to put life back into LIVE
  by incorporating Max/MSP with Live I'm wondering...

  I'm not a fan of the software instruments in Live or in Max/MSP and 
  would only use them on a plane flight to Dubai!
  30 hours with nothing to do!!! ;-)

  :-)

  You're doing this with cSound too, eh!? That's seriously intense, 
  Jammie! And yes I'd love to see what I could do
  with those waveforms in Live and in Melodyne even! Are you on the 
  cSound list that's run out of Bath in the UK?

  I'd like to hear more about how you use the "sweep": I'm not sure 
  exactly what you mean by that... Can you be
  more specific? I'm coming-in late to the conversations on the list, 
  but I hope bringing in some new material.

  The Ensoniq was a classic but people around me didn't know how to use 
  it and it sounded like a buzz-saw or a
  vacuum cleaner and that was one of the reasons I bought an Emax was 
  because of bad experiences, poor implementation
  of the Ensoniq.

  With the VS it's done for you. And the smooth movement between 
  waveforms can be done via programming or using the
  joy-stick in real-time on the VS between the four oscillators.

  Great points as always! Thank you! Yes, please I'd like to see if I 
  can develop some waves of my own using the Ableton tools
  to give them validity in my experience! :-)

  Single cycle waves are the essence of purity in one sense for great 
  source material, no doubt about it.

  On 15 Jul 2009, at 00:37, jammie wrote:

  >
  > i use the comp for sound design and editing samples then i dump them 
  > back to hardware for the synth section and analog filtering
  >
  > the reason virus strings sound warm are the multi saw oscillators 
  > these oscillators are single cycle wave forms i have emulated some 
  > using csound
  >
  > ill post some on the furom site ill do them a 3 cycles long then ill 
  > loop the middle 1 for you they will be in the key of aas its a nice 
  > equal number system for the computer to compute a4 being 100 samples 
  > to 1 single cycle wave
  >
  > these samples will only take up 1-2k each and you can have hundreds 
  > on 1 floppy
  >
  > soft samplers make you lazy in the fact that when wanting a resonant 
  > sweep sound they same the instrument that does it which makes the 
  > sample static for resweeping with out restarting the sample
  >
  > were as you can synthesis it on an emax and can change the sweep any 
  > way you like in real time with use of the onboard modulaters with 
  > out having to restart the sample by pressing a key
  >
  > thats the difference in hardware and software its the limitations 
  > that make you more creative
  >
  > becuse you use programming to get the sound to perform instead of 
  > say the gigabyte piano in giga studio thats been sampled at massive 
  > long takes
  >
  > the perfect piano from ensoniq was only 1 mb in size and sounds 
  > sweet thats the difference you can get outstanding sounds with 
  > little memory and programming i use an ensoniq mirage which has only 
  > 2 banks of 64k but drums sound wicked on it coupled with its digital 
  > distortion of the oscillators and the analog filters its in the 
  > programming
  >
  > the key to being different is experimentation and programming and 
  > single cycle waves

  ***************************************
  - This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to 
  serve -

  Truth does not fear investigation.

  "There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.14/2238 - Release Date: 07/14/09 18:03:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by jammie

the e4 keyboard come up all the time here and sell for £150-300

the synthi is on ly good for sound effects and bases

floyd sampled the synthi in the k2000 and used them on stage synthi are hard to control and get the same performance twice each time you do it it changes a little not good for performing but good for ideas they make some great sounds but you can emulate the sounds with the emax using single cycle waves

timberland uses mirages and asr10,s 

thats why his sound sounds great he.s using the tools of the pro,s of the 80,s-90.s he is using the same technics that the producers used then and not shity soft samplers

wutang did most of there beat production on a eps 12bit machine 

beastie boys drums are done on an sp1200 the emax is the same engine less sample time 

theres room for more memory on the emax theres some rs and cs signals not being used by the memory controller but would need extra code in the rom to access it hard ware side is easy as you can stack memory chips ontop of 1 another and bend the pins up for the rs and cs signal which get soldered to the memory controler outputs

you can get upto 4mb with an fz1 sampler this way 

the korg dss1 is being upgraded to 16mb this way
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ss 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...






  On 15 Jul 2009, at 00:54, jammie wrote:

  >
  > a lot of people dont remember most of the best stuff was created on 
  > analog 8 track tape and played live dubbed then overdubbed

  Exactly. Like the Beatles on the Teac 4 & 8 track machines. The 
  Beatles have never sounded anything but brilliant. Ageless.

  >
  > janet jacksons first album was produced using analog synths and a 
  > mirage and sounded dirty and great

  Right! And Jimmy-Jam brought-in the NED Synclavier as I remember at 
  one point, but that was later in the game...
  I remember how "Control" just ripped through the music scene. She 
  picked the best people.

  Dirty and great is best! "SexyBack" by Timberlake is really dirty 
  sounding (no pun intended here!) and it's very effective.
  That production value was a choice and was created, too.

  >
  > dep mode there best stuff of the 80,s-90,s was using emaxes

  I think they were doing more design on Emaxes than anybody is saying. 
  "Violator" really has that Emax sound all
  the way through it, sans Gore's guitar overpowering everything else.

  >
  > pink floyd they used kurzweil k2000,s

  I thought their best use ever was the EMS Synthi on "Dark Side of the 
  Moon" It's extremely simple
  but the power is in the EMS Synthi. Being in the USA I only had 
  access to the ARPs and Moogs and
  among the Americans to use the EMS were Todd Rundgren who squeezed 
  every drop out of it one could get
  on "Something Anything" and "Wizard a True Star". The best effects 
  were always the EMS synthi combined
  with variable tape speed. Then there was the classic use of Pete 
  Townsend running the Hammond organ chords
  through the filter and gate of the EMS Synthi on the opening of "Won't 
  get fooled again!"
  You know, I sat in front of an ARP 2600 for hours thinking: "How did 
  Townsend get that sound out of the 2600's
  sample & hold! It's horrific!" He didn't!! That's the answer! It 
  sounds like a synth, but it's the Hammond! Great trick!
  I could never get my hands on the EMS Snythis here in the States! It 
  drove me mad! Lucky we had the Oberheim's though!

  >
  > computers are unreliable especialy for live work

  A very, very good point. And difficult to control, too. Any 
  performer, a DJ, has to have a backup laptop
  if they're going to be using Live for a gig for example. MacBookPros 
  can take a hell of a beating, but on
  the road is too much to ask.

  >
  > i have 30 samplers that i can load up and play at the same time you 
  > cant do that with a software sampler you run out of processor speeds 
  > and to have the same equivelant you would need 30 comps with 
  > emulatorx hardware and software to even sound remotely as good as 
  > the hardware

  Really fine point. And I remember all of the "Pros" telling me to 
  dump all of my keyboards on the used marked and replace with a laptop 
  as they
  did, and now they are really eating their words. They are using field 
  recording gear for source material and trying to craft and shape new 
  waves
  from that material, and they're jealous and mad as hell at people who 
  didn't dump their gear because they were so stupid to do it!

  I've never really been able to "scrub" with a computer with the feel 
  and speed of using my hands on tape or 35mm mag film and locate
  a slice point so easily...

  As we all know, Kontakt doesn't replace an Emax. They're two 
  different animals entirely -- any comparison is pointless.

  Jammie -- any Synthi or EMS gear there in your house in all that gear 
  some place??? :-)

  >
  > and im picking up hardware cheaper than a piece of software just 
  > picked up a yamaha s3000 with zip100 drive and library for £51 + 
  > postage of £16.99
  >
  > the zip100 sell for £15-25
  >
  > an emax1 se hd keyboard just sold for £120 on ebay in excelant 
  > condition and EII are going for £100-300

  If anybody ever sees one of the few EIV keyboards appear for sale I 
  hope you'll post it to the list! They only made a few from what I
  understand and demand was dismal to non-existent. Nice to hear that 
  some of this gear is still available out there some place...

  >
  > i think its good to have both soft and hardware as you have best of 
  > both worlds and you can use comp for speed and the hardware for 
  > musicality as they are designed as musical instruments

  Exactly. This was the point I made on the FL Studio BBS years ago. 
  They have no concept of a "musical instrument" and that something
  was designed to be "played" and not mimicked -- the VSTi's do drop 
  many times to the point of self-ridicule and FL STUDIO can be just
  another video game. Or, in the hands of somebody who knows how to 
  grasp the power of the tool, it can really roar with intense and
  unique sound.

  Time and again, though, I've met kids who've become professionals who 
  started-out initially with "Fruity-Loops" and an old broken-down PC and
  then added-on one PlugIn at a time and built-up this whole arsenal of 
  tricks but ended-up jumping-into Cubase (still using FL Studio via 
  ReWire)
  but Cubase became their main environment and then they started 
  collecting old gear and new synths.

  One of the problems with the energy surrounding that whole Image-line 
  crowd is that there are a lot of sharks there that are making a lot of 
  cash
  selling PlugIns to a lot of inexperienced kids -- and that's their 
  game. And it really is like a game -- one big Video Game. It's too 
  bad. FL Studio
  has a lot of power and people don't exploit that part of the tool.

  Thanks for the fine comments and wise points, Jammie!

  Since were on this point of hardware vs software what do you think of 
  the Virus software synth with the hardware board that powers it?
  I own the last revision of the Virus C rack/desktop, and one ProTools 
  user I know was just shaking his head and saying I was foolish to
  not go the PlugIn soft-hard combo Virus synth. But I had reasons for 
  not going the route and getting the C rack. But I recently saw the
  sofware PlugIn and it's really a different animal from what I could 
  see: it's really streamlined-down to be a Trance/Dance synth, I think.
  Now that would have the power to perform with the hardware board to 
  back it up! Had any experience with that one by chance...?

  The TI's just sound like severe aliasing and low resolution sound! 
  Horrible! Not worth the price at all.

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RE: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-15 by el macaco

I had an ASR-10 Rack for a while which I got specifically for it's transwave capability.  it really is a blast to use, and you get a lot of different timbres by sweeping through a sample.  IIRC it is not limited to single cycle waves, although that is how traditional Wavetables are constructed (I believe the PPG WaveTerm could load user samples for use as wavetables, but I may be wrong).

 

The one limitation I found frustrating on the ASR-10 was that you could only use one modulation source at a time for the wave modulation.  So you couldn't have an LFO sweeping the sample start and end, and also have aftertouch or modwheel also modulate it.  Not the reason i got rid of the ASR, but I am surprised that I have not heard of any other sampler being able to do this since (maybe later E-mu samplers? I seem to recall investigating and coming up with nothing but the ensoniq ones).  very rich possibilities in that machine.  Really fast sampling too.

 

I really wish the emax had this feature, it would be amazing!  (where are all these DSS retrofit people?  Esynthesist, how about a badass new os?  You haven't done nearly enough for the emax community (just kidding!! ;)

 

I love my emax I, it's just so amazing and sounds just ooze out of it with so much character.  Even with just 512kb of memory (not 1 M as stated before!).

 

Also, on the Prophet 5, not much to worry about, still very repairable, especially the Rev. 3 versions (with midi standard).  Try the Prophet 08 before you buy, I didn't like it much at all, and the encoders fail quite quickly so they've released a pot version that has real potentiometers and not encoders for this very reason.

 

But you might like it! So try it.

 

peace emaxers, it's so good to see this much activity on the list.

 


To: emax@yahoogroups.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: jammie.emma@...
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:44:44 +0100
Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...







theres only 3 samplers that can perform the single cycle wave modulation and thats ensoniq eps16+ asr10 and asr-x

they are called transwaves and you use single cycle waves upto 128 and use interpolation to get from 1 single cycle to the next so you can have radical change

the good thing about this is the mod wheel can sweep through these cycles 1 at a time so you can have radical changes in timbre from a tiny file 

ensoniq implimented this becuase they went digital with there filters and had no resonance so they designed transwaves with single cycles that added resonance in the upper ctcles 

this way the could emulate a resonant sweeping filter through programming of the synth with out expensive analog filters

ill post 1 in the files section so you can get an idea they are like spectral syntheasis sounds but you can move through the sample rather than playing just the sample like in the emax

if your into hardware and get a chance to own an eps16+ then transwave synthesis is a great media to utilise 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: ss 
To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

I agree completely, Jammie!

This is exactly what is wrong with the Ableton Live instruments. You 
hit the nail on the head, my man! :-)

Have you thought about creating a group of samples to sell to Ableton, 
for example? IMHO they need some
help right now!

My Prophet VS relies on those single-cycle waveforms for it's stunning 
sound!

But Jamie? Remember the Fairlight and the use of slices across the 
time-domain? That's where the small,
single-cycle limitation concerns me. I can use the hardware 
processing of the constant cycle, but I'm also
looking for some way to have interpolation across the time-domain, say 
from each single cycle to the next
in a smooth momentum...?

You may have just hit the nail on the head for Max/MSP limitations, 
too! For the most part I hear nothing but
NOISE coming out of Max/MSP -- absurd, ridiculous, nonsense and 
atonality that is not dissonant -- it is out right
discomfort and as I said NOISE by the "artists" I hear who are using 
it. Could this be solved with single cycle
waves I wonder? In many cases the raw source going into Max/MSP has 
been very harmonically rich, but I'm
thinking it's the fault also of the modulators too perhaps?

I have more experience with Reaktor than with Max/MSP but now that 
Ableton has tried to put life back into LIVE
by incorporating Max/MSP with Live I'm wondering...

I'm not a fan of the software instruments in Live or in Max/MSP and 
would only use them on a plane flight to Dubai!
30 hours with nothing to do!!! ;-)

:-)

You're doing this with cSound too, eh!? That's seriously intense, 
Jammie! And yes I'd love to see what I could do
with those waveforms in Live and in Melodyne even! Are you on the 
cSound list that's run out of Bath in the UK?

I'd like to hear more about how you use the "sweep": I'm not sure 
exactly what you mean by that... Can you be
more specific? I'm coming-in late to the conversations on the list, 
but I hope bringing in some new material.

The Ensoniq was a classic but people around me didn't know how to use 
it and it sounded like a buzz-saw or a
vacuum cleaner and that was one of the reasons I bought an Emax was 
because of bad experiences, poor implementation
of the Ensoniq.

With the VS it's done for you. And the smooth movement between 
waveforms can be done via programming or using the
joy-stick in real-time on the VS between the four oscillators.

Great points as always! Thank you! Yes, please I'd like to see if I 
can develop some waves of my own using the Ableton tools
to give them validity in my experience! :-)

Single cycle waves are the essence of purity in one sense for great 
source material, no doubt about it.

On 15 Jul 2009, at 00:37, jammie wrote:

>
> i use the comp for sound design and editing samples then i dump them 
> back to hardware for the synth section and analog filtering
>
> the reason virus strings sound warm are the multi saw oscillators 
> these oscillators are single cycle wave forms i have emulated some 
> using csound
>
> ill post some on the furom site ill do them a 3 cycles long then ill 
> loop the middle 1 for you they will be in the key of aas its a nice 
> equal number system for the computer to compute a4 being 100 samples 
> to 1 single cycle wave
>
> these samples will only take up 1-2k each and you can have hundreds 
> on 1 floppy
>
> soft samplers make you lazy in the fact that when wanting a resonant 
> sweep sound they same the instrument that does it which makes the 
> sample static for resweeping with out restarting the sample
>
> were as you can synthesis it on an emax and can change the sweep any 
> way you like in real time with use of the onboard modulaters with 
> out having to restart the sample by pressing a key
>
> thats the difference in hardware and software its the limitations 
> that make you more creative
>
> becuse you use programming to get the sound to perform instead of 
> say the gigabyte piano in giga studio thats been sampled at massive 
> long takes
>
> the perfect piano from ensoniq was only 1 mb in size and sounds 
> sweet thats the difference you can get outstanding sounds with 
> little memory and programming i use an ensoniq mirage which has only 
> 2 banks of 64k but drums sound wicked on it coupled with its digital 
> distortion of the oscillators and the analog filters its in the 
> programming
>
> the key to being different is experimentation and programming and 
> single cycle waves

***************************************
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to 
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Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)

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Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...

2009-07-17 by Elk Latham

>>What other hardware are you using, Elk?

I'm using the following hardware:
1) Emax SE (Baldwin model with black keyboard shell.)
2) Emax II (early 1MB model with mono sample input. I replaced the floppy drive and HD with a   
    CF card reader/writer.
3) EIIIx with 8 MB of ram. (I still think the EIIIx sounds better then the EVI XT)
4) EVI XT 128 MB of ram with an internal CF card reader/writer.
5) Powerbook G3 with Alchemy 3.0 for sample dumps and editing of samples.
6) P4 laptop 1.8 Ghz PC with EMXP.
 
I also use an Otari MX5050 with Dolby SR, and a couple of AKAI tube reel to reel
for sound design/processing and mix down.  The price of tape is making it harder to justify this option.
 
 
I still rely on my hardware samplers for live performance as well. 



________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: ss <ssws1@...>
To: emax@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:17:41 AM
Subject: Re: [emax] Keeping track of "source material"...





Yes, Elk and I'm trying to understand this...But in every case it is 
different, a different situation.
With Emax, for example, it is the filters, the dithering, the ability 
to loop highly complex material
that would be impossible to do in Peak or other software programs, and 
the soft attacks and decays
I get from the envelope generators and other analog parts of the 
instrument.

It is very interesting talking with some FL Studio users, for example, 
who curse at me and call me
an "old timer" and ignorant because "everything that used to be done 
with hardware can now be
done with plugins and FL Studio". Well, I didn't hang-out with these 
guys for very long I can tell
you, Elk. Trying to discuss this with them was pointless. And a 
friend of mine said simply: "They're
zealots and wont listen to a word anybody says!"

I've worked very hard to replicate "tape-saturation" in my work by 
using any number of tricks and
tools. I'm really big on tape-saturation because I had a system where 
the EIII or Emax was connected
to an 8-Track mixer and then went stereo-out to a Nagra that was 
custom-built. Quite often I'd flip
the chain around and takes recorded on the Nagra would be re-recorded 
back into the EIII and then
re-designed further.

My mixer and Nagra were super quiet! No noise build-up. So I could 
do this.

So my method would be, and still is, multiple 24-track mixes each 
mixed-down to stereo two-track
mixes and then in the end the multiple stereo two-track mixes are all 
loaded and a final mix-down
is done.

This process adds to the need to be able to keep track of source 
material because in the end it can
become very difficult years later to remember what and where that 
source sample came from....

As a rule I'm burning lots of discs and putting notes with them and 
storing them away.

With the Emax I found that I was taking the source recording many 
times and processing it
through multiple effects-boxes before it went into the Emax. Then on 
the way out to the
mixer it went though another chain of boxes before being recorded.

Now things at every stage of the game right from the working with the 
raw and unprocessed
source material everything is going into Melodyne Studio and I'm 
working with it.

Melodyne Studio after all I'm realizing is a sampler! I never thought 
about it that way, but in
general the limitations that I ran into years ago with Emax can now be 
solved with Melodyne
before it goes into Emax! :-) It is wonderful -- incredible! I 
cannot recommend it enough as
a tool for work with Emax because of the limitations of 1 MG of RAM, 
etc.

I have the Emax HD SE so unlike some lucky folks who were able to snag 
an Emax II I am limited
to that 1 MG of RAM which makes one become very creative to get around 
problems I must say! :-)

The Melodyne PlugIn solves a lot of problems from the outset. People 
don't have to shell-out for
the Studio version, although I would strongly recommend it because you 
will use it -- believe me!
Unlimited tracks, "unlimited undos", the ability to produce all of 
those arrangements on the fly and
then just re-arrange things again.

And I can design the sound for that 1 MG RAM limitation from the 
outset! :-) This makes me very
happy!

[Also, I am not a "shill" for Celemony who make the Melodyne 
Software. I just got involved with
them from the start of their company in hopes of solving a serious and 
horrible problem with a
piece of music I had worked on for two, almost three, years and had to 
throw-out. That's how
I discovered the software. It didn't solve my problem, but in 
learning about the software it opened
all of these doors for me creatively that I am still exploring daily 
and discovering new applications
for the software and the tools in it -- more than I have the time and 
life to explore and work with!
It's like the Spectrum Synthesis and Transform Multiplication in SE: 
you sit for hours pursuing
a path while it processes in that 1 MG of RAM! Now with Melodyne 
designing everything on the
front-end for Emax's limitations Emax is far far more powerful for me 
than it was before! I love
creating a beat with the Spectrum engine and then working with the 
loop in ReCycle and exporting-out
and into Melodyne and changing everything around -- all of the 
pitches, layering the melodic
lines of it, and changing the percussive elements of the SE beat! 
It's just fantastic! Also I can
really create rhythmic loops with beats at the loop-points without 
artifacts or distortion when
altering pitch, or length, etc.!]

Hardware is important for many reasons.

You know I was just looking at Dave Smith's Prophet 8 and how I want 
to snag one of those
before they disappear! Those synths are like Porches of the synth 
world! And the combination
with Emax is perfect, really! Just like the Access Virus and Emax 
combination' s results. Perfect!
Great beats, great strings, great loops! [Don't like the TI's, 
though! Like "Polar"...]

What other hardware are you using, Elk?

Now that I cannot get tape any longer the Nagra is gone from the setup 
for good in my world.

On 14 Jul 2009, at 21:30, Elk Latham wrote:

>
> everything I do with software instruments some how end up in 
> hardware sampler as well.

************ ********* ********* *********
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