EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group group photo

Yahoo Groups archive

EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:25 UTC

Thread

Re: [EXS] Digest Number 1535

Re: [EXS] Digest Number 1535

2005-01-03 by Nick Batzdorf

From: Hollow Sun <steve@...>

>In the days when I had a commercial studio, I bought library and people
>booked my place *BECAUSE* I had that library. I charged them a studio rate
>and that money was used to repay my investment in the library I had bought
>much like it repaid my investment in the MTR, desk, outboard, the sampler
>the library was used in, the keyboard that played those samples, etc..

As long as you're using the library, that's okay. You just can't rent 
it to client like a mixer.

>
>>  So, If I have the VSL and bring my composition including the library to
>>  a studio, I guess the studio has to refuse if it does not own this
>>  library. Even if just one tone is used, this can be a violation of the
>>  copyright because VSL does not sell single tones. Yes, theory is far
>  > away from daily live, sometimes.

Nope.

>Well... it proves that the law's a bit of an ass with this one because if
>what you say is true (and thinking about it, it appears it could well be)

The law is an ass, but that's not what VSL stipulates at all.

>, I
>can't (in theory) take my Akai S5000 to a local studio with some commercial
>library *I* have bought and *I* have licenced for use in *my* music because
>the studio does not have that library and is potentially in violation of
>copyright laws when it records it in my composition! Hmmmm!

No, no, no.

>But even if you are not using a commercial studio to record your music and
>you literally do the whole track laying and mixdown process at home with no
>contravention of copyright, technically, you cannot then take your master to
>a mastering house because that facility doesn't have that library.... even a
>CD pressing plant should refuse to take it!! Hmmmmm!
>
>No doubt this one can run and run!

People are making it more complicated than it really is.

>Anyway.... happy new year to all of you.

You too. :)
-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434

Re: [EXS] Digest Number 1535

2005-01-04 by Hollow Sun

> As long as you're using the library, that's okay. You just can't rent
> it to client like a mixer.
Another grey area... am I renting the library to them (I am not renting the
mixer or hiring it out for them to take away) ... I am (was) charging them a
price for using my facilities and *I* happen to think that this includes the
client being able to avail themselves of the facilities I have to offer
whether it's stunning monitoring, a great desk, more tracks than the
competition, more *experience* than the competition... whatever... inc. the
creative possibilities available at my studio be it a particular synth or a
particular keyboard or...

A particular library, a commodity that the client cannot justify buying
(much like he couldn't justify buying, say, a Mellotron) for just one track.

>>> So, If I have the VSL and bring my composition including the library to
>>> a studio, I guess the studio has to refuse if it does not own this
>>> library. Even if just one tone is used, this can be a violation of the
>>> copyright because VSL does not sell single tones. Yes, theory is far
>>> away from daily live, sometimes.
> 
> Nope.
But if the font copyright analogy is true.... ?

> People are making it more complicated than it really is.
Hmmmm.... Contentious!

It could be argued that library developers are making it more complicated
than it really is with ever more stringent copyright and licencing
stipulations - the very fact that this discussion is taking place is (I
think) a testament to the confusion that exists amongst users who have
shelled out good $$$ for some library but are not (quite) sure how and where
they can use it in certain circumstances.

>> Anyway.... happy new year to all of you.
> 
> You too. :)
:-)


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

Re: [EXS] Digest Number 1535

2005-01-04 by Sascha Franck

IMO there's 2 problems in all these discussions about the legality of things
and whatever:
- Honesty/fairness of users (or the lack of such), and as a result of this:
- Developers harming legit users with totally bloated copy protection
schemes.

I am by no means saying that this should be a general law or whatever - and
most likely the various license agreements are saying something completely
different too, but here's how I see it:
When I'm buying an instrument, I will be able to do with it whatever I want.
I will be able to take it with me, borrow it out, modify it, whatever.
Now, when I'm buying a software instrument, things are getting more
complicated allready. I won't be able to borrow it out for instance - the
license agreement won't allow me to (let alone that things such as C&R
protection schemes will make it technically impossible too).
Yes, I can clearly see the moral and legal background behind this: In case
license agreements would say something else and in case things were freely
transferable, (unhonest) people would just copy instruments and samples to
their likings (which is exactly what happened with, say, AKAI CDs).

OK, fine with me, developers are concerned about loss of sales due to copied
versions of their work - I can perfectly understand that.
Still, from a user point of view, it's harming me, sometimes even majorly.
Let's assume I used, say, something like Stylus (or any other C&R protected
library + player instrument, there's just tons of them these days) on a song
that I preproduced in my home studio. Now I want to take things with me to
some larger studio to finish the production. The only way this can be done
would be to either bounce all tracks down (which means I won't be able to
alter them later on) or to carry my home computer with me. The latter will
defenitely result in a LOT of problems, carrying things around (that are not
made for that purpose) being the smallest of the problems. I would have to
connect things and sync it up with the larger studio's equipment - we all
know what a pain this could be.
Had I done this with a hardware instrument instead, all these problems would
almost be non-existant. I would just connect a MIDI cable and plug the audio
outs in. Let alone hardware instruments usually are made to be carried
around as well.

As said, I DO see the difference between *buying* some hardware and
*licensing* software - but, from a user point of view, it doesn't make much
of a difference. Buying a software instrument (or a library) for me is just
the same as buying a new guitar - seen from the impact it has on my
instrument arsenal. I mean, it's just a new instrument.
Yes, I also know that companies like to make sure only ONE person is using a
licensed product at a time - this is pretty easy with hardware, almost
impossible with unprotected software, because of a high chance users would
be illoyal and simply spread copied things around.
Still, it DOES harm me as a legit user.

Another example: Had I purchased Komplete 2, say, 2-3 years ago (well, it
didn't exist back then, but anyways...), I think I would have experienced
more down- than uptime, because back then I was re-configuring computers on
an almost weekly base (for various reasons, one of them being that this
is/was part of my job). Impossible to get all that C&R protected stuff
licensed as often/quickly.
I could still use my guitars instantly - no computer asking for a new
authorisation. Almost the same is true for Logic/Cubase, I just had to plug
in the appropriate dongles.

Bottomline: While I DO understand companies in a way, all their lincense
agreements and copyright schemes are doing is harming ME (or any other legit
user for that matter) - the most obscene thing being that, once hacked
versions are released, crack users are harmed WAY less as they can simply
copy/install things freely.

I wouldn't happen to know about any satisfying solution either, but
personally I'm really getting p****d about the current state of things
occasionally.

Anyways, enough of those ramblings, happy new year to you all,
- Sascha

Re: [EXS] Digest Number 1535

2005-01-04 by Fernstudio

Hi,

On 3-Jan-05, at 5:23 PM, Hollow Sun wrote:

>  A particular library, a commodity that the client cannot justify 
> buying
>  (much like he couldn't justify buying, say, a Mellotron) for just one 
> track.

That, IMHO, is a bit of a weak excuse.  Just because it seems to be 
relatively expensive in this specific example, doesn't mean that it 
should be justified as a fair use.  We are confronted with many choices 
in life where we choose to pay-for/buy something and it is made more 
difficult when it costs more than we are willing to pay.  Just because 
it is relatively expensive doesn't make it an inherent right.  IMHO, if 
you are making money off of the sales of the CD that has that one 
track, the cost of a sample library needs to be factored in there.  If 
he cannot justify buying the sample lib (because maybe the sales of the 
CD are expected to be small), then maybe it would be better to rent a 
synth which has a similar sound on it or use a different sound.

Again, if I may play devil's advocate here a little bit, where the 
"client" gets a sample from a studio (that they have rented time from) 
or off the internet (illegally), what's the difference?  How is the 
sample library manufacturer supposed to be compensated and be able to 
determine who is/isn't using their library legally/illegaly?  My 
personal feeling in regards to the renting out of "sample libraries" 
from a studio is different.  While I think that it might be a good 
thing for the studio, the manufacturer still needs to be compensated in 
some form.  This would probably be a tracking nightmare for the 
manufacturer so take it with a grain of salt.  Perhaps, the 
manufacturer could sell special "studio" versions of their sample 
libraries with the stipulation that the lib is only used on a studio 
machine (easier to administer than it used to be since some libraries 
are now copy protected and need to be unlocked by registering).  The 
studio could sell a license for each sample someone uses and a fee 
would need to be paid to the sample manufacturer.  Don't know how the 
fees would be arrived at.

This would allow the client to use the sample on their CD for a portion 
of the cost of the entire library and would allow studios to let their 
clients use their sounds.  The samples would be licensed to that client 
for only that one recording.  Multiple recordings (like for example on 
the band's 2nd CD) would need to be re-licensed.  This isn't a fully 
thought out example but perhaps something that would work for the 
studio, client, and sample library manufacturer (if we were trying to 
please everyone) better than the current situation.

>  It could be argued that library developers are making it more 
> complicated
>  than it really is with ever more stringent copyright and licencing
>  stipulations - the very fact that this discussion is taking place is 
> (I
>  think) a testament to the confusion that exists amongst users who have
>  shelled out good $$$ for some library but are not (quite) sure how 
> and where
>  they can use it in certain circumstances.

I don't necessarily agree with this either.  I have found many people 
to not have really read the sample licensing agreements text in detail. 
  While some of it is written in legal-type language, most of it is 
pretty straightforward IMHO.  FWIW, most of the sample library license 
agreements are the same no matter where you go.  Much of the confusion 
I've found is from people making assumptions about what the agreement 
is and isn't.  Not saying that this is 100% the case but I have found 
many people to have not really read these agreements nor checked with 
the developer regarding fair use.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be argumentative here or anything.  There has 
been some discussion on this matter that I have agreed with and some 
that I have disagreed with.  I certainly respect the developers rights 
here and would like to see some things a little bit less restrictive.  
I personally don't buy some of the "it's too expensive - I should be 
able to share with others" type of arguments.  I've said it before but 
I find VSL Pro Edition too expensive for me.  I would never dream of 
using it on a recording without owning it first.  Just because I can't 
justify its purchase doesn't make it my right to use on my track (even 
though it would give me the best sound on that track).

Best regards,
Fernstudio



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.