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Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by PersingEP@aol.com

In a message dated 2/10/02 6:01:12 PM, saschafranck@... writes:

>I downloaded this loop some time ago. Apparently it's copyright free.

Hmmm, not much info there.....Downloaded from where?...and how do you really 
know it is "copyright free"?

This list is great, and it is one thing to share and post your own creations 
or instruments that you sampled yourself. But re-distributing stuff that you 
aren't sure of the origin or that you didn't create or record your self is 
dicey and can land you in lots of trouble. Just because you can download it 
and there's no copyright notice on it doesn't mean it is legal. Quite a bit 
of the stuff on all these soundfont sites is stolen, illegal stuff BTW.

This isn't an accusation of Sascha, as I know he's usually pretty careful 
about this, but many times trading original samples can quickly and 
unintentionally turn into trading illegal stuff. Since alot of pros are on 
this list, I bring this issue up as something to be very careful about.

Best regards,

EP
Spectrasonics

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Sascha Franck

PersingEP@... wrote:
> Hmmm, not much info there.....Downloaded from where?...and how do you
really
> know it is "copyright free"?

Ok, of course I don't *know* it's copyright free, but I got it from one of
the more or less wellknown download sites. Unfortunately I don't remember
where this loop came from since it's a long time ago that I got it. But, I
allways download such things into a special folder named "free loops". Sure,
this doesn't assure that the loop really is copyright free as the original
poster could very well have have ripped it from some commercial CD. But
then, this is nothing I can do about.
The only possible thing would be not to upload such a patch at all, but
hm... do we want that?
As a last consequence, nobody would be allowed to post anything he/she
hasn't sampled by him/herself.
I mean, I have quite a bunch of converted soundfonts, TTis (patches for my
old EWS soundcard) and the likes. Almost all of them I got from the web.
Does that mean I'm not allowed to post these patches here even  if the
original patch had a disclaimer saying was copyright free? Just because
there's a chance that this isn't so?
You know, I don't even *trade* this stuff on some dubious FTPs, IRC channels
or Hotline servers (which is what the *big* guys in the illegal sample
trading scene seem to do) but I do it all through my legal site and even
post to some official mailing list. And it's not that I post whole CDs worth
of samples there. Not even a single sample is coming from any CD. It's also
not that I would ever even think about posting anything from sample CDs that
I own because I'm very well aware of the fact that this wouldn't be legal at
all.

 > This list is great, and it is one thing to share and post your own
creations
> or instruments that you sampled yourself. But re-distributing stuff that
you
> aren't sure of the origin or that you didn't create or record your self is
> dicey and can land you in lots of trouble. Just because you can download
it
> and there's no copyright notice on it doesn't mean it is legal. Quite a
bit
> of the stuff on all these soundfont sites is stolen, illegal stuff BTW.

I know all this and of course there's some problems arising when posting
patches. But as said, in the end this would mean that nothing you didn't
sample by your own would be allowed to share at all, just because there's
allways the chance that it could come from whatever CD.
A while ago I posted some drumloop that I indeed recorded all by myself.
Now, how could you even know it's mine? I could've only said so. I could've
done the same with the congaloop and nobody would ever be able to prove the
opposite. BUT, I don't do so, instead I honestly declare that I didn't
sample it myself.
Even if you don't mean this as an accusation, I feel a bit accused though.
I mean, if you really care about stolen samples you should rather hunt down
the sites you suspect to post stolen material. But all the big soundfont
sites are still up and running. And there are several of them, just do a
Google search.

And then, another thing: Recently there was this thread about the (public)
AKAI sample FTP and about people converting patches and then posting only
the EXS files. If you think about it, there's a problem with that as well.
Am I allowed to use a patch that was converted using a program that I don't
own by myself?

But OK, as a result I will now stop posting anything as there never is a
definite prove that I haven't sampled things by myself. I won't even post
anything I recorded by myself anymore. Could all be stolen material. At
least this will save me some upload time.

Bye,
Sascha

RE: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Richmond, James (James) ** CTR **

Hi there, 

> And then, another thing: Recently there was this thread about 
> the (public)
> AKAI sample FTP and about people converting patches and then 
> posting only
> the EXS files. If you think about it, there's a problem with 
> that as well.
> Am I allowed to use a patch that was converted using a 
> program that I don't
> own by myself?

Corrct me if I am wrong but I am thinking that as I am the one doing the
conversion I own the copyright on the .exs files themselves.
The original wav files retain the original copyright of the owner.. ie
akai?
Is this corrct?

What about giga files that pack the sample info and wave data into the
one file? Is this a copyright infringement?

Am I insane?

James

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by sorenrv

Hi Eric

--- In exs-users@y..., PersingEP@a... wrote:
> ...and how do you really know it is "copyright free"?

You are absolutely right, Eric. As annoying as it may be, a list 
member posting something for others to use, even with the best 
intentions, may run into trouble, and we should all beware so we know 
what we are doing.

There is a great vibe of sharing on the list these days and the other 
day I was about to share some of my EXS stuff but do I really know 
that it's copyright free? One thing are the files I have downloaded 
from others or from soundfont sites and tweaked myself. I definitely 
don't know whether they are kosher. 

And then I start asking myself what about the bass drum and snare 
patches I have made sampling from my own sound modules one of which 
is the Ensoniq MR which has loads of great drums and percussion (to 
my ears that is)? I have tried to capture those drum sounds as 
faithfully as I can and could I get in legal trouble sharing them?

Anyway, would anybody be interested in an EXS patch which is 100% my 
own? It is very simple but very useful. It's all major and minor 
chords played by a good sounding electric guitar. Just one strum on 
each key, going "RRIING", with one octave being major and one octave 
being minor. I use it often on downbeats when I go from one section 
of a song to the next, like the first beat of a chorus. I would have 
to ask someone on the list to host it.

Apart from the above I have opted for a diffent road for now to 
satisfy my wish to share and that is to contribute to the Computer 
Music readers' loop competition 'cause I am 100% sure that the loops 
I have built in Logic and Reaktor are my own. Computer Music has 
requested that I supply my entries in .wav format instead of 
the .mp3's I submitted and I consider that a good sign. They may end 
up some place where others can use them.

Kind regards,

Soren Riis-Vestergaard

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by sorenrv

Hi Sascha

--- In exs-users@y..., "Sascha Franck" <saschafranck@s...> wrote:
> But OK, as a result I will now stop posting anything as there never 
is a
> definite prove that I haven't sampled things by myself. I won't 
even post
> anything I recorded by myself anymore. 

As you being the one who could be said to have started this recent 
sharing mania I can understand that you are a bit intimidated by 
Eric's warning. And it makes me sad to read your post 'cause you 
didn't deserve the warning being directed to you personally. 
Personally I am grateful that you always share you knowledge, avoid 
flaming and lately share your EXS patches as well. Thanks, Sascha.

I do not have a solution to the "how do we know it's copyright free" 
question. But to stop sharing at all is a too sad conclusion, isn't 
it? I think you should take Eric's post not as an accusation to us 
but as a warning that the one among us who share stuff may get into 
trouble. That's how the law works and Eric is right in pointing it 
out. Of course he has a special interest in copyright protection with 
all the sample stuff he sells. But his point is valid anyway.

So let's continue sharing what we feel safe about, right? Take the 
Akai samples as an example. They are put up by Akai on their 
official, free, ftp site, right? I feel safe using and sharing them. 
Plus the stuff I do myself, I feel safe about that. 

Let's not get paranoid but instead help each other as best we can 
within the legal framework put up by society.

Kind regards,

Soren Riis-Vestergaard

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Sascha Franck

Richmond, James (James) wrote:
> Corrct me if I am wrong but I am thinking that as I am the one doing the
> conversion I own the copyright on the .exs files themselves.
> The original wav files retain the original copyright of the owner.. ie
> akai?
> Is this corrct?

Actually, even if I was the one starting this, I don't know too much about
this...
But I allready thought about something similar too. I don't own ReCycle yet
(will order next month when my financial situation is a bit better). What
I'm doing right now is taking all my loops with me to a friend who's got
ReCycle, then take them back with me. I wonder if there's issues with that
as well - but most likely there's not, I mean, "Computer Music" regularly
puts some recycled loops on their CDs as well.

Regards,
Sascha

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Alvaro Villalobos

Hello!!

I\ufffdm looking for the new Spectrasonics sample of the month and I can\ufffdt find 
it anyone who could email me the exact link to the Groove Control free 
sample of the month??

The best,

Alvaro Villalobos.

Ps. Meaby they don\ufffdt have that anymore?? Ds.



_________________________________________________________________
Chatta med v\ufffdnner online, prova MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.se

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Eli Krantzberg

sorenrv wrote:

> Hi Sascha
>
> As you being the one who could be said to have started this recent
> sharing mania I can understand that you are a bit intimidated by
> Eric's warning. And it makes me sad to read your post 'cause you
> didn't deserve the warning being directed to you personally.
> Personally I am grateful that you always share you knowledge, avoid
> flaming and lately share your EXS patches as well. Thanks, Sascha.

Amen; my sentiments exactly. I understand you feel somewhat "hurt" Sascha;
and it always seems to be the innocent who end up getting hurt.

> So let's continue sharing what we feel safe about, right?

That's all we can do. It's like after James got mugged; he'll be more
careful, but will still walk out of his house and walk the streets each day
when he needs to.

>
> Let's not get paranoid but instead help each other as best we can
> within the legal framework put up by society.

Well put. Let's try and look at Eric's post as something to make our
community spirit stronger, not weaker.


--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Eli Krantzberg

Sascha Franck wrote:

>  I don't own ReCycle yet
> (will order next month when my financial situation is a bit better). What
> I'm doing right now is taking all my loops with me to a friend who's got
> ReCycle, then take them back with me. I wonder if there's issues with that
> as well - but most likely there's not,

I'm no expert either, but it doesn't seem to me like there's any, at least
moral, if not legal, problem with that. You're having the legal owner of a
piece of software use his software... That's what software is for!

What's the difference between what you're doing and someone coming into my
studio, paying me to record him using Logic, and then him posting his
recordings for free on the net if he wants to?; which of course is a perfectly
legitimate use of Logic.


--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Sascha Franck

Hi Soren,

> I think you should take Eric's post not as an accusation to us
> but as a warning that the one among us who share stuff may get into
> trouble.

Ok, which thing is then which *may* get me into trouble?
A) Admitting that I download samples from the internet? Will the police come
to my home because I might have downloaded some stuff which wasn't copyright
free? Aww...
B) Or admitting that the loop I posted was from the internet? Which then
could mean that I was eventually supplying copyrighted stuff illegaly?
C) Or is it the fact that this congaloop sounds like one you could very well
find on some sample CDs too?

So...

A) would just be pointless because then someone would have to shut down all
public sample sites instantly or at least check all the samples you can find
there - I mean, you never know...
B) I could actually understand this a bit. But then, would it make things
any better if I remembered the download link and would post that in some
sort of disclaimer? If so, I will remember that for the future. I doubt I
would post anything like that again though, it's just too much trouble to
remember the download link for all the things...
C) If that was the case, uhm! I have a bunch of things that I am "offcially"
allowed to use in any context I like, be it using it for my own music or
giving it further to friends. These samples sound pretty much the same as
stuff you can find on somewhat wellknown sample CDs because it was actually
made by the same people. I have quite some loops on a CD I got from Mousse T
personally (he did the "Jambox" and "Overdub Sensation"  CDs, most likely a
few more as well). As said, I even asked him if it was material that I could
give further. I also have some loops I personally recorded with a good
friend of mine, he's the drummer on \ufffdberschall's "Drumskills" (btw, don't
get that CD, it's not well sorted at all). Some of the loops I have recorded
with him just sound pretty much similar as on the mentioned CD (only that I
sorted them way better ;-). I don't want to run into problems just because
my own stuff sounds sonically similar to samples that you can find on
popular sample CDs.

> So let's continue sharing what we feel safe about, right? Take the
> Akai samples as an example. They are put up by Akai on their
> official, free, ftp site, right? I feel safe using and sharing them.
> Plus the stuff I do myself, I feel safe about that.

I must say that for the above mentioned possibilities I don't feel safe any
longer.
OK, I could say that everything I posted was sampled by my own, but it would
be somewhat strange to assume that this would be all that was required to be
safe. Plus it's not what I would think "acting responsible" means.

Anyways, as I'm planning to start doing my own drum sample CD next month, I
also DO care about things such as copyrights. I really don't want to find my
samples and patches spread all over the net either as we (the involved
drummer and me) plan to make a somewhat serious thing out of that.
And fwiw, as I'm testing software for some companies I also know what being
concerned about copyrights and their infringements means for them and I'd be
the last person to say "well, get it for *free* on the internet".
Btw, we still don't have any about a distributor. In short, it will be a
(mostly natural) drumloop CD, but it will use a somewhat new-ish concept as
it a) deliver some sort of "construction" sets, b) will be a "mixed" CD as
it will use both MIDI and audio patterns and c) will be a "Logic'ed and
EXS'ed" CD.

Apart from all this, I took that congaloop away from my site. Same with the
TTI (EWS card) patches I converted. Same with the pads I recently posted
(they were converted and edited soundfonts from one of the most evil sites
on the web, http://www.hammersound.net/ that is, better don't visit...).
Everybody allready having them should think about erasing them too... as
said, you never know.

Regards,
Sascha

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by sorenrv

Hi Sascha

I maybe just as confused as you are but let me comment on the three 
situations you describe. These are my own personal guidelines to find 
a middle ground between copyright paranoia and ignorance.

--- In exs-users@y..., "Sascha Franck" <saschafranck@s...> wrote:
> A) Admitting that I download samples from the internet? Will the 
police come
> to my home because I might have downloaded some stuff which wasn't 
copyright
> free? Aww...

Frankly, who cares what you have on your harddisk? Noone. Your 
concern should be in case you release music to the general public 
where you use sounds and/or loops that could be copyright protected. 
This only goes for stuff that you honestly feel relatively safe 
about, right? If you know that stuff you have downloaded, ripped or 
whatever IS in fact copyright protected, then noone would proabably 
find out but in that case you are "breaking the law" with your eyes 
open and it's up to you and your conscience how you feel about that.

> B) Or admitting that the loop I posted was from the internet? Which 
then
> could mean that I was eventually supplying copyrighted stuff 
illegaly?

As a general rule I wouldn't pass on stuff I had downloaded from the 
Net without being pretty sure that it was copyright free. I wouldn't 
feel good about it.  

> C) Or is it the fact that this congaloop sounds like one you could 
very well
> find on some sample CDs too?

I probably wouldn't care about that. If it sounds like something but 
you know it isn't the thing, then you don't have to bother. If I had 
received loops or samples from someone who made them himself and he 
told me that it's okay to pass them on then I would feel okay doing 
that. 

...have to stop now. The police are knocking on my door, now they 
enter, now they take my P.
                          .
                           .
                            .

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Shane Fawkes

on 2/11/02 4:12 AM, Eli Krantzberg at elik@... wrote:

> sorenrv wrote:
> 
>> Hi Sascha
>> 
>> As you being the one who could be said to have started this recent
>> sharing mania I can understand that you are a bit intimidated by
>> Eric's warning. And it makes me sad to read your post 'cause you
>> didn't deserve the warning being directed to you personally.
>> Personally I am grateful that you always share you knowledge, avoid
>> flaming and lately share your EXS patches as well. Thanks, Sascha.
> 
> Amen; my sentiments exactly. I understand you feel somewhat "hurt" Sascha;
> and it always seems to be the innocent who end up getting hurt.
> 
>> So let's continue sharing what we feel safe about, right?
> 
> That's all we can do. It's like after James got mugged; he'll be more
> careful, but will still walk out of his house and walk the streets each day
> when he needs to.
> 
>> 
>> Let's not get paranoid but instead help each other as best we can
>> within the legal framework put up by society.
> 
> Well put. Let's try and look at Eric's post as something to make our
> community spirit stronger, not weaker.
> 
> 
> --
> Eli Krantzberg
> Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
> http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

Well put Eli (and sorenrv). I would also like to say I also appreciate
Eric's general cautionary note. For my own information I really appreciate
some of the discussion that has resulted in how people deal with all the
samples 'floating around' on the web. Lastly, I appreciate the sharing of
knowledge that (amongst so many others) Sascha  brings to this group. Let's
keep the vibe on this list as bouyant as it has steadily been in the past.

Regards,

   Shane


-- 
Shane Fawkes, 
Director of Music, 
Walnut Grove Secondary School,
Langley, B.C. Canada

sfawkes@...
sfawkes@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Eli Krantzberg

sorenrv wrote:

>
> Frankly, who cares what you have on your harddisk? Noone.

I don't think Eric would share these same sentiments.

> Your
> concern should be in case you release music to the general public
> where you use sounds and/or loops that could be copyright protected.

What's that expression "possession is nine tenths of the law"? I think just
having (and using) unpaid for commercial samples is against the spirit of
the law (if not the moral paradigm) regardless of whether you release music
commercially an/or make money with it or not.

A home hobbiest using an unpaid for commercial sample for pleasure is no
less illegal than Michael Jackson using that same sample on a million seller
hit. Morally, we can come up with all kinds of justifications, but legally,
this part at least, seems fairly clear.

I don't mean to come across as puritanical sounding; I'm wrerstling with my
own demons as we all are.....


--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by sorenrv

Hi Eli

--- In exs-users@y..., Eli Krantzberg <elik@c...> wrote:
> sorenrv wrote:
> 
> >
> > Frankly, who cares what you have on your harddisk? Noone.
> 
> I don't think Eric would share these same sentiments.

To me this thread is about using the group to discuss and test our 
ethics and for me this is a valuable excercise.

I wasn't aware that the above sentence taken out of context suddenly 
made me sound like a totally copyright ignorant. I hope that if you 
put it into context it comes across that my comment is about samples 
that I do believe are copyright free to the best of my knowledge. 
Just two or three lines down I make a totally different statement 
about samples that you know are copyright protected.

Eli, either you and I disagree on copyright ethics (which from recent 
posts I do not think we do) or you have taken one sentence out of 
context and chosen to comment on that alone. I wish you would comment 
on my post as such. 

Kind regards,

Soren Riis-Vestergaard

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by Eli Krantzberg

sorenrv wrote:

>
> To me this thread is about using the group to discuss and test our
> ethics and for me this is a valuable excercise.

Hi Sorens. Yes, I agree, and it is for me too.

>
> Eli, either you and I disagree on copyright ethics (which from recent
> posts I do not think we do) or you have taken one sentence out of
> context and chosen to comment on that alone. I wish you would comment
> on my post as such.

We don't disagree. I'm sorry for taking your sentence out of context. Of
course if samples are legitimately copyright clean, it doesn't matter what's
on one's hard drive. And it's always our individual responsibilities to have
our eyes wide open.

This whole issue is very sensitive for me. Over the past few months, many
sincere heartfelt posts on this list have caused me to re-think the whole
sample piracy issue. Temptation and morality make for a difficult wrestling
match. In the past I haven't always been strong. I don't think I'm alone
here either.... I'm trying to be a better virtual citizen now. But I don't
want to come across like a religious convert preaching the gospel either.
Anyway, I don't have any specific point to make.... just that I'm sorry I
took your quote out of contect and that I think almost all of us are in
agreement around here as to basic distinctions between right and wrong in
regards to piracy.

Garth makes some compelling distinctions betwen single license useage, and
doing work for clients with one's single license software. I have worked in
several post production houses and I think Garth is correct in that it's not
the big commercial money making studios that are the problem. It's the
casual attitudes of individual users that cause the hemmoraging (sp?) of
intellectual property.



--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-11 by sorenrv

Hi Eli

--- In exs-users@y..., Eli Krantzberg <elik@c...> wrote:
> Anyway, I don't have any specific point to make.... just that I'm 
sorry I
> took your quote out of contect and that I think almost all of us 
are in
> agreement around here as to basic distinctions between right and 
wrong in
> regards to piracy.

Great, thanks for your reply. It makes me feel good. 

Anyway, I am really looking forward to James' Akai/EXS postings and I 
sincerely believe that the free distribution of those samples are 
fine with Akai. Why? Because they are freely available on a public 
server run by a big corporation with no mention of them not being 
free. Is that waterproof? No, but I feel fine anyway.

Kind regards,

Soren Riis-Vestergaard

Re: [exs] New patch: Congaloop

2002-02-12 by PersingEP@aol.com

In a message dated 2/11/02 3:50:47 AM, richmondj@... writes:

>Corrct me if I am wrong but I am thinking that as I am the one doing the
>conversion I own the copyright on the .exs files themselves.
>The original wav files retain the original copyright of the owner.. ie
>akai?
>Is this corrct?
>
>What about giga files that pack the sample info and wave data into the
>one file? Is this a copyright infringement?
>
>Am I insane?

Sample Copyright is covered under the Sound Recording Copyright Act. 
Therefore, it is the samples that are the issue (whatever format they are 
in). The Patch files are really not copyrighted unless you've specifically 
registered them as "software" which is obviously a bit silly and unlikely.

-EP

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