The Logic Off Topic list

This group is temporarily being moderated. I'm deleting *all* 
political messages from the archive.. Please keep this list focused 
on music! I'm sure there are a larger number of political oriented 
mailing lists out there, probably even some on YahooGroups. Please 
excuse my language, but we really don't need this shit here. 

Thanks!
Jeremy Martin; sadus@...
http://www.carrollsweb.com/sadus

>This group is temporarily being moderated. I'm deleting *all*
>political messages from the archive.. Please keep this list focused
>on music! I'm sure there are a larger number of political oriented
>mailing lists out there, probably even some on YahooGroups. Please
>excuse my language, but we really don't need this shit here.
>
>Thanks!

Well then maybe we should take the political discussions over to the LUG.

> >This group is temporarily being moderated. I'm deleting *all*
> >political messages from the archive.. Please keep this list focused
> >on music! I'm sure there are a larger number of political oriented
> >mailing lists out there, probably even some on YahooGroups. Please
> >excuse my language, but we really don't need this shit here.
> >Thanks!

--- In logic-ot@y..., Dennis Gunn <dennisg@a...> wrote:
> Well then maybe we should take the political discussions over to 
> the LUG.

Just as easy to hit "Delete" over there as it is here... 

Of course Logic-TDM, EXS-users, SoundDiver-users are all still 
unmoderated... It would really be a shame to have to slow down 
everyone's great dialogs in those other lists just to try and filter 
out OT political mails though, I guess temporarily banning anyone who 
posts political messages in those other lists would be a good 
solution for now. 

Someone could always create a new "Logic-Politics" for all the LUGers 
to post about such things there, but that's up to you all.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, politics (that have nothing to 
do with music) have no place on our music-related lists. I was going 
to compare such political threads to OS wars (as in the end they are 
equally useless), but at least OS wars have a little to do with music 
in a round about way, while politics are definitely 110% off topic. 

Best wishes,
Jeremy Martin; sadus@...
http://www.carrollsweb.com/sadus

Hi Jeremy,

>I'm not trying to be mean or anything, politics (that have nothing to 
>do with music) have no place on our music-related lists. I was going 
>to compare such political threads to OS wars (as in the end they are 
>equally useless), but at least OS wars have a little to do with music 
>in a round about way, while politics are definitely 110% off topic. 

Hence the term:  Logic -- Off Topic 

:-)

Jeremy, I can understand the view you have taken but I would submit that
the case is not "open and shut". I don't know if you followed this list
last year  but there was a huge politics thread here post 9/11. It did
degenerate into some nasty stuff at times but generally it was pretty
interesting and a lot of people participated/followed it. 

Some members got pissed off and unsubscribed because of the blizzard of
mail but there was no general opposition amongst those subscribed to such
discussion. In fact, people came out of the woodwork to enter the
discussion. -- the group was never more active. Perhaps the [Logic -
Politics] thing is not such a bad idea.   I don't want to read hateful
email but I wouldn't mind reading more of the thoughts of the others in
this group on this sort of topic when it comes up.

Have people complained to you about the political threads. Do they
represent a majority view?  These sorts of threads are running on PC-DAW's
main list too where you are also a participant. As others have pointed out,
the L-OT was setup to get all these things off the main list. 

Regards,
Murray

> >I'm not trying to be mean or anything, politics (that have 
> >nothing to do with music) have no place on our music-related 
> >lists. I was going to compare such political threads to OS 
> >wars (as in the end they are equally useless), but at least 
> >OS wars have a little to do with music in a round about way, 
> >while politics are definitely 110% off topic. 

--- In logic-ot@y..., Murray McDowall <murraymc@m...> wrote:
> Hence the term:  Logic -- Off Topic 
> :-)

To me and many others, that Logic in there implies "still somewhat 
related to music." Spam emails are rejected from the LUG since 
they're way off topic, but we don't redirect them over here.. 
 
> Jeremy, I can understand the view you have taken but I would 
> submit that the case is not "open and shut". I don't know if 
> you followed this list last year  but there was a huge 
> politics thread here post 9/11. It did degenerate into some 
> nasty stuff at times but generally it was pretty interesting 
> and a lot of people participated/followed it. 

That's cool, I'll have to check out the archives sometime. Believe it 
or not I've only been a LUG member since December 2001 (and I've only 
owned LAWP since February 2002 for that matter). 
 
> Some members got pissed off and unsubscribed because of the 
> blizzard of mail but there was no general opposition amongst 
> those subscribed to such discussion. In fact, people came out 
> of the woodwork to enter the discussion. -- the group was 
> never more active. Perhaps the [Logic - Politics] thing is not 
> such a bad idea.   I don't want to read hateful email but I 
> wouldn't mind reading more of the thoughts of the others in
> this group on this sort of topic when it comes up.

We do have a great community around here, so I can see why you'd like 
to discuss this with them, but I really don't think Logic-OT is the 
right place. I went ahead and created a Logic-Political list if any 
of you want to hop over there and continue the political talks right 
now. Just send a blank email to l-pol-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or go 
to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/l-pol/join to sign up. If you guys 
could hold your discussions over on the political list, they won't be 
forced upon anyone who doesn't want to read them, and that list will 
stay 100% unmoderated. 
 
> Have people complained to you about the political threads. Do 
> they represent a majority view?  These sorts of threads are 
> running on PC-DAW's main list too where you are also a 
> participant. As others have pointed out, the L-OT was setup to 
> get all these things off the main list. 

No one has complained to us directly, but there were several posts 
made to the list asking people to stop. Also 3 people unsubscribed 
yesterday... Not a huge number, but before yesterday no one had 
unsubscribed for weeks. 

I checked with the other admins who are "ATK" right now and they 
agree completely that politics don't belong on this list. I'm going 
to email Joeri at work to get his opinion, but I'm pretty sure he 
feels the same way after reading his post here yesterday. 

Another reason why I felt I needed to "put my foot down": a very 
similar thread came up on the Logic beta test list about a month ago. 
It started on a Friday evening and over the weekend it "spread like 
wildfire". By the time Emagic employees were around on Monday to put 
a stop to it, it had became *extremely* nasty and even quite racist. 
We really don't need something like that happening here...

All the best,
Jeremy Martin; sadus@...
http://www.carrollsweb.com/sadus

Thoughts from the mind of Jeremy Martin, 17-10-2002:

>This group is temporarily being moderated. I'm deleting *all*
>political messages from the archive.. Please keep this list focused
>on music! I'm sure there are a larger number of political oriented
>mailing lists out there, probably even some on YahooGroups. Please
>excuse my language, but we really don't need this shit here.

Sorry to throw in my 2c, but I strongly disagree with the moderators 
here.  This is an Off Topic list, and should not be moderated at all. 
Not ever, period.  It's a small group of subscribers (relatively), 
mostly adults, who should be perfectly capable of taking care of 
themselves -- esp. in a group whose topic is so vague as to be called 
'off topic'.

While I agree that the original intent of L-OT was probably not to 
have some political discussion list, I do feel though that 
discussions such as these should be allowed.
If we had political arguments every week, then (maybe) that would be 
something different, but we don't -- the last real political debate 
is more than a year ago.  So the suggestion to set up a 
Logic-political list is somewhat bizarre imo -- it's not as if people 
want to discuss politics all the time...
If people have strong feelings about these matters, and already know 
each other through the LUG, why then not permit them to exchange 
further thoughts on an off-topic list -- even if it's one called 
"Logic off-topic"?

And for those complaining about the amount of ot-ot traffic: come on, 
and don't be childish.  Is it really that much of a burden to delete 
20 messages per day?  Threads like this die out by themselves in a 
couple of days.  A week, or maybe two, maximum.  Not really something 
that should bother anyone too much, really.


regards,
HJ, very annoyed at seeing the L-OT being moderated

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

From: "Jeremy Martin" <sadus@...>
>Someone could always create a new "Logic-Politics" for all the LUGers 
>to post about such things there, but that's up to you all.
>I'm not trying to be mean or anything, politics (that have nothing to 
>do with music) have no place on our music-related lists. I was going 
>to compare such political threads to OS wars (as in the end they are 
>equally useless), but at least OS wars have a little to do with music 
>in a round about way, while politics are definitely 110% off topic. 


I do NOT agree, 110%.   I've been following a lot of what's being said 
here, and I find it very ON TOPIC as it relates to our business and how 
other's using the same tools as I am and in a related business to mine 
feel about current events and politics, in general.  These things play 
themselves out when there's nothing left to say worthy of note. 
 However, pulling the trigger just because you can't relate to it or 
someone else complains that their "15 minutes of fame" is being 
overshadowed by something others feel is more important is not helpful, 
comes off as self indulgent and Draconian.  This IS an off topic list, 
and should be a place where those who use the same or similar tools and 
are in the same or a similar business may freely discuss issues 
important to them, and general things that affect their lives and 
businesses.  It was fascinating to watch the Peter Gabriel thread grow, 
and a lot of good points have been presented from different perspectives 
from around the world.  While you may cite there are "other political 
forums," there aren't many, in fact only one other I know of 
(daw-mac-ot) where musicians/artists, recordists, producers, and those 
with a fringe interest in the music industry can get together and 
express their views of the world and what affects them, as well as learn 
the same things about others.  

IMO, your desire to shut off the political discussion is somewhat 
understandable, but not very well thought out.  There have been MANY 
other "issues" brought up in this forum that had nothing to do with 
anything remotely related to Logic Audio OR the music industry in 
general and no one complained.  I merely skipped over those that didn't 
interest me.  Instead of censoring the political discussion (which I've 
not participated in, but have read with interest), I suggest you simply 
skip over it if you don't find it of use to you.

Finally, I suggest this may be "youthful exuberance" or a lack of it on 
your part Jeremy, but many of us are greatly affected by world events 
these days and if you aren't writing music about them, you should be 
thinking about them, and if you aren't acting on any of them, you're 
letting someone else control your life.  I say this as someone who's 
been on this list about 4 years and seen the list founder Jeori, express 
his own "political views" on this list numerous times.  So, I humbly 
suggest you rethink your decision and let people discuss whatever they 
choose as long as they're not being overly abusive to each other.  :)

Best regards,
...z


"Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created 
them."
-Albert Einstein

-- 
Zeek Duff's CDs and mp3 downloads
-> http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/305/zeek_duff.html
-> Fingerstyle Jazz Guitar From Beautiful Colorado