Digital BW, The Print

I made a print for a client about 3 years ago and it is now showing an issue I have never seen before. Here are the specs: print size 43"x60", Hahnemuhle Photo rag 308, Cone Piezotone selenium inks, Epson 9800 printer. The print was framed (not by me) by floating using archival hinges on the back of the print along the top in a semi-deep frame with plexiglass. So the print "floats".

I went to the clients because he noticed "cracking" of the surface. I louped the "cracks" and they do not look like cracks but more like short scratches - but not the surface, more like the coating, the print surface is not pilled. The "cracks" are only located at the points with the hinges are adhered to the back of the print and where the print has buckled a bit and is touching the plexiglass. It does not look like coating flaking.

Any ideas out there what it might be? My only thought is the weight of the print is stretching those areas and because they are restricted it is indeed "cracking".

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

Hi Mark,
I read this a few times.. I can only offer a few thoughts .. When you describe them as looking like scratches..even so they are separations.. If their only occurring where the hinges are then it gets narrowed down a bit I think.. Paper moves .. not like canvas but any wood based product expands and contracts small amounts based on some outside influences.. The glue that is used on the hinges may have inhibited that to some degree and is in conflict with movement that is going on around it.. It's probably a few things in combination.. I don't know how much hinge material was used to support the print but that print has some weight to it and all the stress is on the hinges then passed thru the glue adhesion back to the paper.. Your seeing some buckling you said so their may not have been enough hinge material used to support that size piece. What I will say is that our coatings that are on many of these materials are more fragile then we think ..This whole thing is a complex puzzle.. I'm noticing some negative things that are showing up in some pieces that have been on display for about the length of time your talking.. It's canvas that has been coated with type C ..the coatings in some cases seem to be loosing their clearness ..as if the surface has changed.. It's tied to exposure to light.. no clue what's really going on yet..
I was at an art show yesterday an artist was hawking his wares stating that his inks would not fade at all for 12 years... WTF... I asked him how he knew that ..People are stupid at times.. 
Sorry your going thru this .. 

jimbo

 ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Savoia 
  To: EpsonWideFormat@yahoogroups.com ; DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 9:00 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Print "cracking" issue


    
  I made a print for a client about 3 years ago and it is now showing an issue I have never seen before. Here are the specs: print size 43"x60", Hahnemuhle Photo rag 308, Cone Piezotone selenium inks, Epson 9800 printer. The print was framed (not by me) by floating using archival hinges on the back of the print along the top in a semi-deep frame with plexiglass. So the print "floats".

  I went to the clients because he noticed "cracking" of the surface. I louped the "cracks" and they do not look like cracks but more like short scratches - but not the surface, more like the coating, the print surface is not pilled. The "cracks" are only located at the points with the hinges are adhered to the back of the print and where the print has buckled a bit and is touching the plexiglass. It does not look like coating flaking.

  Any ideas out there what it might be? My only thought is the weight of the print is stretching those areas and because they are restricted it is indeed "cracking".

  Mark
  http://www.stillrivereditions.com



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am mostly worried about after I make a new print for him if it will happen again. If it is all about the framer's responsibility, that might be a tough one sell to MY client, sounds like I am making an excuse. I don't want to use the "after it leaves my place its on its own" statement.

Unfortunately the framer is also a friend with a very good 30 year reputation.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 5, 2011, at 12:04 PM, mrjimbo wrote:

> Hi Mark,
> I read this a few times.. I can only offer a few thoughts .. When you describe them as looking like scratches..even so they are separations.. If their only occurring where the hinges are then it gets narrowed down a bit I think.. Paper moves .. not like canvas but any wood based product expands and contracts small amounts based on some outside influences.. The glue that is used on the hinges may have inhibited that to some degree and is in conflict with movement that is going on around it.. It's probably a few things in combination.. I don't know how much hinge material was used to support the print but that print has some weight to it and all the stress is on the hinges then passed thru the glue adhesion back to the paper.. Your seeing some buckling you said so their may not have been enough hinge material used to support that size piece. What I will say is that our coatings that are on many of these materials are more fragile then we think ..This whole thing is a complex puzzle.. I'm noticing some negative things that are showing up in some pieces that have been on display for about the length of time your talking.. It's canvas that has been coated with type C ..the coatings in some cases seem to be loosing their clearness ..as if the surface has changed.. It's tied to exposure to light.. no clue what's really going on yet..
> I was at an art show yesterday an artist was hawking his wares stating that his inks would not fade at all for 12 years... WTF... I asked him how he knew that ..People are stupid at times.. 
> Sorry your going thru this .. 
> 
> jimbo
> 
> -

Mark,
It's easy to pass the buck.. but that's really not what's appropriate in this case.. Question.. The print is 60 " long I recall how long was the hinge across the top? It would be fair to assume the if you did your part the same and so did the framer you'd have a good shot at repeating the same issue. So a process change is appropriate.. I would suggest also that it's easier for the framer to change his process then for you to change yours.. It's not a big deal to use a different hinge material and adhesive.. I have floated many pieces thru the years and have never seen this issue pop up. I know I must have 3 different hinge kits in the cabinet.. I think you and your framer need to work out a change to the process and share that with the client so that your all on the same page. Find out what glue was used.. Ya know you could spray the back of the job in the area of the hinges to seal it also if you guys figure that the adhesive had anything to do with it.. I guess just being honest is quite appropriate.. and just do so without blaming anyone.. It'll all come back in the end. Oh and if the buckling is bad and deemed objectionable then it is appropriate to look at look at something a little more secure.. 

jimbo

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Savoia 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 11:21 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Print "cracking" issue


    
  I am mostly worried about after I make a new print for him if it will happen again. If it is all about the framer's responsibility, that might be a tough one sell to MY client, sounds like I am making an excuse. I don't want to use the "after it leaves my place its on its own" statement.

  Unfortunately the framer is also a friend with a very good 30 year reputation.

  Mark
  http://www.stillrivereditions.com

  On Jul 5, 2011, at 12:04 PM, mrjimbo wrote:

  > Hi Mark,
  > I read this a few times.. I can only offer a few thoughts .. When you describe them as looking like scratches..even so they are separations.. If their only occurring where the hinges are then it gets narrowed down a bit I think.. Paper moves .. not like canvas but any wood based product expands and contracts small amounts based on some outside influences.. The glue that is used on the hinges may have inhibited that to some degree and is in conflict with movement that is going on around it.. It's probably a few things in combination.. I don't know how much hinge material was used to support the print but that print has some weight to it and all the stress is on the hinges then passed thru the glue adhesion back to the paper.. Your seeing some buckling you said so their may not have been enough hinge material used to support that size piece. What I will say is that our coatings that are on many of these materials are more fragile then we think ..This whole thing is a complex puzzle.. I'm noticing some negative things that are showing up in some pieces that have been on display for about the length of time your talking.. It's canvas that has been coated with type C ..the coatings in some cases seem to be loosing their clearness ..as if the surface has changed.. It's tied to exposure to light.. no clue what's really going on yet..
  > I was at an art show yesterday an artist was hawking his wares stating that his inks would not fade at all for 12 years... WTF... I asked him how he knew that ..People are stupid at times.. 
  > Sorry your going thru this .. 
  > 
  > jimbo
  > 
  > -


  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The print is 60" horizontal, the framers says he did hinges about every 12" or so, he uses archival cloth with wheat paste. I kind of wish the issue was only at those points but it is only happening at the two corner ones and of course the "cracks" in the middle of the image have nothing behind them. The "cracks" in the middle also do not go horizontally across the print, more of a diagonal.

When I say buckle I think I should have been clearer, the print curves out in the middle from the top and touches the glass, I also think it is the weight of it or the fact that the paper might be remembering its curl from the roll stock. At the bottom of the print it is flush to the backing board again.

Best way I can describe what the "cracks" look like is small splashes of white ink (paper color), no repeating pattern. If it was a piece of film I might even say it looks like static marks from shooting and winding film in cold dry conditions. The file shows none of this, the print sure as shit did not have them going out the door here.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 5, 2011, at 2:39 PM, mrjimbo wrote:

> Mark,
> It's easy to pass the buck.. but that's really not what's appropriate in this case.. Question.. The print is 60 " long I recall how long was the hinge across the top? It would be fair to assume the if you did your part the same and so did the framer you'd have a good shot at repeating the same issue. So a process change is appropriate.. I would suggest also that it's easier for the framer to change his process then for you to change yours.. It's not a big deal to use a different hinge material and adhesive.. I have floated many pieces thru the years and have never seen this issue pop up. I know I must have 3 different hinge kits in the cabinet.. I think you and your framer need to work out a change to the process and share that with the client so that your all on the same page. Find out what glue was used.. Ya know you could spray the back of the job in the area of the hinges to seal it also if you guys figure that the adhesive had anything to do with it.. I guess just being honest is quite appropriate.. and just do so without blaming anyone.. It'll all come back in the end. Oh and if the buckling is bad and deemed objectionable then it is appropriate to look at look at something a little more secure.. 
> 
> jimbo

>>> Best way I can describe what the "cracks" look like is small splashes of
white ink (paper color), no repeating pattern. If it was a piece of film I might
even say it looks like static marks from shooting and winding film in cold dry
conditions. The file shows none of this, the print sure as shit did not have
them going out the door here.

Making a bit more sense now. I think you can forget the hinges being at
fault. From your description I would guess that the inkjet coating
(remember, it is different material from the paper underneath; so different
reactions to stresses, humidity, etc.) is cracking as it is stretched under
the weight of the large piece of paper. See if the cracks are not along the
same lines as the greatest pull on the paper from its own weight.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wish I could check it out again but the print is not local and the client had to "fit me in" to his schedule to view it in his home.
You know how it can be...

That is what I am thinking but I can not be the only person out there that has made a print this size with the same framing setup unless it is an environmental issue, too dry or damp. The framer says he leaves small weep holes in the paper backing.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 5, 2011, at 3:04 PM, David Kachel wrote:

> Making a bit more sense now. I think you can forget the hinges being at
> fault. From your description I would guess that the inkjet coating
> (remember, it is different material from the paper underneath; so different
> reactions to stresses, humidity, etc.) is cracking as it is stretched under
> the weight of the large piece of paper. See if the cracks are not along the
> same lines as the greatest pull on the paper from its own weight.
> 
> David Kachel

Hi again Mark,
I must not have gotten what was said originally .. I'm seeing something totally different now. I just saw David's last post.. I'm in agreement. Remember that the paper can breath and move while it's hanging.. This seems to be that the coating is failing over time or if their looking like small surface pops then their just finishing working their way loose from the job expanding contracting etc..
This behavior I've seen a lot of on canvas that is not coated. Also note that you said the curl is bumping the plexi in the center.. So the ink side is stretching and the back side is contracting.. Do you flatten your prints for your clients? (I mean really flatten them)..  Do you tube them? What size tubes? If the print is not flattened then the curl memory will live in the piece forever unless it gets exposed to enough humidity to remove it.. That curl amounts to an internal stress.. and I think it would be logical to say that the ink receptor layer and inks probably get more brittle over time or exposure to light. If the curl stress is still there then it's starting to make some sense maybe..
You may have just gotten a bad roll of stock.. Who knows.. 


jimbo

 ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Savoia 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 12:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Print "cracking" issue


    
  The print is 60" horizontal, the framers says he did hinges about every 12" or so, he uses archival cloth with wheat paste. I kind of wish the issue was only at those points but it is only happening at the two corner ones and of course the "cracks" in the middle of the image have nothing behind them. The "cracks" in the middle also do not go horizontally across the print, more of a diagonal.

  When I say buckle I think I should have been clearer, the print curves out in the middle from the top and touches the glass, I also think it is the weight of it or the fact that the paper might be remembering its curl from the roll stock. At the bottom of the print it is flush to the backing board again.

  Best way I can describe what the "cracks" look like is small splashes of white ink (paper color), no repeating pattern. If it was a piece of film I might even say it looks like static marks from shooting and winding film in cold dry conditions. The file shows none of this, the print sure as shit did not have them going out the door here.

  Mark
  http://www.stillrivereditions.com

  On Jul 5, 2011, at 2:39 PM, mrjimbo wrote:

  > Mark,
  > It's easy to pass the buck.. but that's really not what's appropriate in this case.. Question.. The print is 60 " long I recall how long was the hinge across the top? It would be fair to assume the if you did your part the same and so did the framer you'd have a good shot at repeating the same issue. So a process change is appropriate.. I would suggest also that it's easier for the framer to change his process then for you to change yours.. It's not a big deal to use a different hinge material and adhesive.. I have floated many pieces thru the years and have never seen this issue pop up. I know I must have 3 different hinge kits in the cabinet.. I think you and your framer need to work out a change to the process and share that with the client so that your all on the same page. Find out what glue was used.. Ya know you could spray the back of the job in the area of the hinges to seal it also if you guys figure that the adhesive had anything to do with it.. I guess just being honest is quite appropriate.. and just do so without blaming anyone.. It'll all come back in the end. Oh and if the buckling is bad and deemed objectionable then it is appropriate to look at look at something a little more secure.. 
  > 
  > jimbo



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does your framer need to flatten the print to frame it?

jimbo

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Savoia 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 1:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Print "cracking" issue


    
  I wish I could check it out again but the print is not local and the client had to "fit me in" to his schedule to view it in his home.
  You know how it can be...

  That is what I am thinking but I can not be the only person out there that has made a print this size with the same framing setup unless it is an environmental issue, too dry or damp. The framer says he leaves small weep holes in the paper backing.

  Mark
  http://www.stillrivereditions.com

  On Jul 5, 2011, at 3:04 PM, David Kachel wrote:

  > Making a bit more sense now. I think you can forget the hinges being at
  > fault. From your description I would guess that the inkjet coating
  > (remember, it is different material from the paper underneath; so different
  > reactions to stresses, humidity, etc.) is cracking as it is stretched under
  > the weight of the large piece of paper. See if the cracks are not along the
  > same lines as the greatest pull on the paper from its own weight.
  > 
  > David Kachel



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

He gets it from me in a 6" tube, lets it sit out for a few days and then frames it, I warned him about outgassing etc and to let the inks really set up. He said when the print was finished it was laying flat or our client would have rejected it, I did not see it, it got delivered from the framer. It was also several years ago and many prints ago.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 5, 2011, at 4:17 PM, mrjimbo wrote:

> Does your framer need to flatten the print to frame it?
> 
> jimbo

Remind how long ago there was that coating issue with H Photo Rag. I know the date I printed the image.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 5, 2011, at 4:14 PM, mrjimbo wrote:

> You may have just gotten a bad roll of stock.. Who knows..

>>> That is what I am thinking but I can not be the only person out there that
has made a print this size with the same framing setup unless it is an
environmental issue, too dry or damp. The framer says he leaves small weep holes
in the paper backing.

Ilford had an enormous fault in the paper backing of their 120 roll film for
many years, which defect ruined lots of film. I was the only person to
notice it AND figure out the cause (of course, the fact I happened to be
doing private research in the same area as the cause of the defect in the
paper backing might have helped). Lots of other photographers HAD to see it
and wonder what it was. A tiny handful of people saw it and complained
publicly (so I know they saw it) but not necessarily to Ilford.

Ilford never acknowledged the problem publicly, let alone fixed it.

SoŠ Other people have no doubt had the same problem you are experiencing but
you may be dust before you hear about it!   ;-)

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok your right on target their (6" tubes etc) .. that should be fine.. .. So if the print was flat originally but curled when you saw it. That says it's been around heat and lower humidity..
You know thinking back their was some bad material out there.. I can't remember when it was. It was when Innova was becoming more popular.. J. Cone suggested it (Innova) as a replacement I think until it got all sorted out.. I suffer from CRS so the date escapes me.. 

jimbo

jimbo ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Mark Savoia 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Print "cracking" issue


    
  He gets it from me in a 6" tube, lets it sit out for a few days and then frames it, I warned him about outgassing etc and to let the inks really set up. He said when the print was finished it was laying flat or our client would have rejected it, I did not see it, it got delivered from the framer. It was also several years ago and many prints ago.

  Mark
  http://www.stillrivereditions.com

  On Jul 5, 2011, at 4:17 PM, mrjimbo wrote:

  > Does your framer need to flatten the print to frame it?
  > 
  > jimbo



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So if I read through there correctly, there was no heat flattening prior to
framing? Just cold press? 

 

Were there any of the marks where the paper touches the plexi?    How about
a long term issue with the ink, that has a CHARGE to it and the plexi that
can pick up a charge. You have seen ciba mounted with a static charge?  Like
a spark or electrical shock pattern to it.  

 

 

 

Eric Neilsen

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 

 <http://ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1> Let's Talk Photography

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

SKYPE ejprinter

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Savoia
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 3:32 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Print "cracking" issue

 

  

Remind how long ago there was that coating issue with H Photo Rag. I know
the date I printed the image.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 5, 2011, at 4:14 PM, mrjimbo wrote:

> You may have just gotten a bad roll of stock.. Who knows..





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jul 5, 2011, at 5:02 PM, EJ Neilsen wrote:

> So if I read through there correctly, there was no heat flattening prior to
> framing? Just cold press? 

No flattening was done at all prior to framing, it was laying flat before it was put in tube to transfer, only spent a day or so in tube.

> Were there any of the marks where the paper touches the plexi?   

Yes.

>  How about
> a long term issue with the ink, that has a CHARGE to it and the plexi that
> can pick up a charge.

Do you really think it would be strong enough to pull the ink out of the paper? And it has happened in two places where the paper can not even come close to the plexi.

> You have seen ciba mounted with a static charge?  Like
> a spark or electrical shock pattern to it. 

Never seen that.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

Hey Mark,
I frame most of my large prints the same way - across the top, with archival linen tape at the corners and in the middle. They're not
quite as large as yours, but this is something I've never experienced. Mine were printed with Piezo Black, also on Photo Rag paper.

Have you spoken with Jon Cone about this? If it's an ink/paper problem, one would think he's experienced or at least spoken with
others who have had a similar problem. 

Not knowing exactly the PH or composition of the glue (does the framer mix it from scratch?), although that may or may not be part of the problem, I was thinking, when you mentioned some diagonal streaks, that perhaps it is the glue, and again [maybe] the back of the tape was
fastened down using some diagonal finger strokes -- perhaps a finger nail, which could push the glue deeper into the paper than the parts 
that were more gently pushed down.

Hope this helps some, rather than making it even more perplexing.

Clay Price

I know that Jon is not a fan of Photo Rag and has in the past not recommended it for Piezotones but I have been using it for years with no issues. Again I need to stress that this same issue is also happening in areas were there is no glue on the back of the print, almost dead center of the image. So I want to rule out the glue. Over the next few months I am going to reprint it and will have access to the problem print and will probably sent it to Hahnemuhle to see what they say.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 6, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Clayton Price wrote:

> Hey Mark,
> I frame most of my large prints the same way - across the top, with archival linen tape at the corners and in the middle. They're not
> quite as large as yours, but this is something I've never experienced. Mine were printed with Piezo Black, also on Photo Rag paper.
> 
> Have you spoken with Jon Cone about this? If it's an ink/paper problem, one would think he's experienced or at least spoken with
> others who have had a similar problem. 
> 
> Not knowing exactly the PH or composition of the glue (does the framer mix it from scratch?), although that may or may not be part of the problem, I was thinking, when you mentioned some diagonal streaks, that perhaps it is the glue, and again [maybe] the back of the tape was
> fastened down using some diagonal finger strokes -- perhaps a finger nail, which could push the glue deeper into the paper than the parts 
> that were more gently pushed down.
> 
> Hope this helps some, rather than making it even more perplexing.
> 
> Clay Price

Mark,  Didn't see that this was going on in two groups. Kept looking for my
post in the other one. : (  Yes, a static change is on plexi so laying a
plastic print like a ciba over a charged sheet of plastic stuck. If the
plexi is cleaned and polished, on the outside is it possible that a charge
is acting on the image/paper mix? Wooden or metal frame? Complex set of
interaction to be sure. Do you have any photos of the offending areas? 
 
Since it is showing up in areas that have no glue, it must be a stress
related or surface related issue. The marks in the paper do not show up in
the bottom of the image where it is free to move. Long term effects of D
roller? I have a large vacuum heat press that I use to flatten images, but I
haven't gone that big. 50" max.   
 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Savoia
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 9:14 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Print "cracking" issue
 
  
I know that Jon is not a fan of Photo Rag and has in the past not
recommended it for Piezotones but I have been using it for years with no
issues. Again I need to stress that this same issue is also happening in
areas were there is no glue on the back of the print, almost dead center of
the image. So I want to rule out the glue. Over the next few months I am
going to reprint it and will have access to the problem print and will
probably sent it to Hahnemuhle to see what they say.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 6, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Clayton Price wrote:

> Hey Mark,
> I frame most of my large prints the same way - across the top, with
archival linen tape at the corners and in the middle. They're not
> quite as large as yours, but this is something I've never experienced.
Mine were printed with Piezo Black, also on Photo Rag paper.
> 
> Have you spoken with Jon Cone about this? If it's an ink/paper problem,
one would think he's experienced or at least spoken with
> others who have had a similar problem. 
> 
> Not knowing exactly the PH or composition of the glue (does the framer mix
it from scratch?), although that may or may not be part of the problem, I
was thinking, when you mentioned some diagonal streaks, that perhaps it is
the glue, and again [maybe] the back of the tape was
> fastened down using some diagonal finger strokes -- perhaps a finger nail,
which could push the glue deeper into the paper than the parts 
> that were more gently pushed down.
> 
> Hope this helps some, rather than making it even more perplexing.
> 
> Clay Price



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And how close to the edge of the paper is that happening? is there a matte
on the image at all or just a free floating paper?
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Savoia
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 9:14 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Print "cracking" issue
 
  
I know that Jon is not a fan of Photo Rag and has in the past not
recommended it for Piezotones but I have been using it for years with no
issues. Again I need to stress that this same issue is also happening in
areas were there is no glue on the back of the print, almost dead center of
the image. So I want to rule out the glue. Over the next few months I am
going to reprint it and will have access to the problem print and will
probably sent it to Hahnemuhle to see what they say.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 6, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Clayton Price wrote:

> Hey Mark,
> I frame most of my large prints the same way - across the top, with
archival linen tape at the corners and in the middle. They're not
> quite as large as yours, but this is something I've never experienced.
Mine were printed with Piezo Black, also on Photo Rag paper.
> 
> Have you spoken with Jon Cone about this? If it's an ink/paper problem,
one would think he's experienced or at least spoken with
> others who have had a similar problem. 
> 
> Not knowing exactly the PH or composition of the glue (does the framer mix
it from scratch?), although that may or may not be part of the problem, I
was thinking, when you mentioned some diagonal streaks, that perhaps it is
the glue, and again [maybe] the back of the tape was
> fastened down using some diagonal finger strokes -- perhaps a finger nail,
which could push the glue deeper into the paper than the parts 
> that were more gently pushed down.
> 
> Hope this helps some, rather than making it even more perplexing.
> 
> Clay Price



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wood frame, I could not take a photo of it, the "cracks" are very small, I had to loupe them to see them with my 52 year old eyes even wearing glasses.

I did no d roller on it or flatten it with anything. When I printed it I laid it out on a table for a few days and it was dead flat, then it got rolled up in tube to transport to framer, he framed it within a few days.

Now of course I have to rely on what the framer might have done (knowingly or unknowingly) and that is how our client accepted the final piece. But being the client only noticed the "cracks" recently I would say it is something that developed over time. He is VERY picky (anyone ever wonder if our clients might monitor these e-groups? Yikes!)

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 6, 2011, at 11:01 AM, E.Neilsen wrote:

> Mark,  Didn't see that this was going on in two groups. Kept looking for my
> post in the other one. : (  Yes, a static change is on plexi so laying a
> plastic print like a ciba over a charged sheet of plastic stuck. If the
> plexi is cleaned and polished, on the outside is it possible that a charge
> is acting on the image/paper mix? Wooden or metal frame? Complex set of
> interaction to be sure. Do you have any photos of the offending areas? 
> 
> Since it is showing up in areas that have no glue, it must be a stress
> related or surface related issue. The marks in the paper do not show up in
> the bottom of the image where it is free to move. Long term effects of D
> roller? I have a large vacuum heat press that I use to flatten images, but I
> haven't gone that big. 50" max.   
> 
> 
> Eric Neilsen

No matte, borderless print, floating, within two inches of edge but more in the center of the print.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 6, 2011, at 11:07 AM, E.Neilsen wrote:

> And how close to the edge of the paper is that happening? is there a matte
> on the image at all or just a free floating paper?
> 
> Eric Neilsen

For you to loupe it, was it taken out of the frame? or you are doing this
through the plexi? 
 
If marks/cracks are all the way into the middle portion of the image, with
no glue, or different stress on the paper, I can only guess a combination of
heat, humidity, air borne elements causing the coating to react with the ink
to form areas with either a more rigid surface or a more porous one. Either
way leading to an eventual failure of the paper/coating/ink combination with
the frame/ plexi backing combination. 
 
Fault? outside the specified limits of known to each part or the process;
printer, paper, framer, buyer. It could be that it's just NOT a workable way
to frame inkjet paper with the total package of ink, paper, wood, plexi. or.
or.. 
 
I would certainly get Hahnemuehle a detailed image showing the failure and
get an art conservation group involved as well. Perhaps this is just the
first in a series of failures and your picky customer may just need to take
a few steps back each year. ; )  
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Savoia
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 10:16 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Print "cracking" issue
 
  
No matte, borderless print, floating, within two inches of edge but more in
the center of the print.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 6, 2011, at 11:07 AM, E.Neilsen wrote:

> And how close to the edge of the paper is that happening? is there a matte
> on the image at all or just a free floating paper?
> 
> Eric Neilsen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Through the plexi, in the center where the print was touching the plexi.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 6, 2011, at 11:42 AM, E.Neilsen wrote:

> For you to loupe it, was it taken out of the frame? or you are doing this
> through the plexi?

Just another guess -

The print touching the plex must have had an effect.  On the other hand,
cracking (of any material) is stress related and caused by either humidity
or atmospheric pressure (less likely).  

Atmospheric pressure (unlikely, but possible):  Where are you located?  What
elevation?   Where is the print located?  Elevation?  I might think about
the elevation of the paper factory; however, this problem has occurred
beginning from the elevation where the print was produced.  

Humidly :  I'm assuming that your client has an expensive house.  If he has
a modern (last decade) heating and cooling system, he likely has
sophisticated humidity controls allowing him to seriously de-humidify his
home.  If so, that could likely crack a Photo Rag.  Think about a print
produced on the coast in say Charleston, SC and then hung in death valley
(Racetrack?).  That print is going to crack.   

Another person's 2 cents -

Tom

I hope I was not misleading anyone with me calling it "cracking" where it really looks like (other things to describe it) streak, spider web, lightning bolt, just no ink on paper.

Since I have no way of showing anyone this think of it if you were to shoot at a piece of paper with a water pistol and them print over that, the ink would not stick where the water blocked it. This is an extreme description because they are so small I had to us a lighted loupe to see it. Does that make sense?

Tom,
Just about sea level, super modern house (its been in Architectural Digest - glass, stainless steel, and stone)

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 7, 2011, at 7:58 AM, Tom Fielder wrote:

> Just another guess -
> 
> The print touching the plex must have had an effect.  On the other hand,
> cracking (of any material) is stress related and caused by either humidity
> or atmospheric pressure (less likely).  
> 
> Atmospheric pressure (unlikely, but possible):  Where are you located?  What
> elevation?   Where is the print located?  Elevation?  I might think about
> the elevation of the paper factory; however, this problem has occurred
> beginning from the elevation where the print was produced.  
> 
> Humidly :  I'm assuming that your client has an expensive house.  If he has
> a modern (last decade) heating and cooling system, he likely has
> sophisticated humidity controls allowing him to seriously de-humidify his
> home.  If so, that could likely crack a Photo Rag.  Think about a print
> produced on the coast in say Charleston, SC and then hung in death valley
> (Racetrack?).  That print is going to crack.   
> 
> Another person's 2 cents -
> 
> Tom

Hey Mark,
I think at this point you have to many possible and not enough evidence to really say what the cause was. However I think their has been enough discussion that based on a few assumptions you could get to a few possibilities. It could have been a flaw in the receptor coating..Or it could be the result of expansive humidity changes.. possibly exposure to light or heat..  I think your right to send the culprit print or at least cuts from it to the supplier to get their nickel on it. I doubt that it was the hinge material at this point but the issue did occur it seemed in it's presence. 
Realistically their are still a lot of unknowns in our craft. The biggest influence thing I've become aware of in my years of doing this is humidity both in our shop and where the piece is displayed and of course the light it's subjected while on display in a clients environment..
So all that being said what's going to be different this time?

jimbo

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Savoia 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 6:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Print "cracking" issue


    
  I hope I was not misleading anyone with me calling it "cracking" where it really looks like (other things to describe it) streak, spider web, lightning bolt, just no ink on paper.

  Since I have no way of showing anyone this think of it if you were to shoot at a piece of paper with a water pistol and them print over that, the ink would not stick where the water blocked it. This is an extreme description because they are so small I had to us a lighted loupe to see it. Does that make sense?

  Tom,
  Just about sea level, super modern house (its been in Architectural Digest - glass, stainless steel, and stone)

  Mark
  http://www.stillrivereditions.com

  On Jul 7, 2011, at 7:58 AM, Tom Fielder wrote:

  > Just another guess -
  > 
  > The print touching the plex must have had an effect. On the other hand,
  > cracking (of any material) is stress related and caused by either humidity
  > or atmospheric pressure (less likely). 
  > 
  > Atmospheric pressure (unlikely, but possible): Where are you located? What
  > elevation? Where is the print located? Elevation? I might think about
  > the elevation of the paper factory; however, this problem has occurred
  > beginning from the elevation where the print was produced. 
  > 
  > Humidly : I'm assuming that your client has an expensive house. If he has
  > a modern (last decade) heating and cooling system, he likely has
  > sophisticated humidity controls allowing him to seriously de-humidify his
  > home. If so, that could likely crack a Photo Rag. Think about a print
  > produced on the coast in say Charleston, SC and then hung in death valley
  > (Racetrack?). That print is going to crack. 
  > 
  > Another person's 2 cents -
  > 
  > Tom



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well at some point over the next few moths I will have the print in my possession and it will go off to Hahnemuhle. I am just concerned about that the  replacement print does not end up the same way.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 7, 2011, at 9:18 AM, mrjimbo wrote:

> Hey Mark,
> I think at this point you have to many possible and not enough evidence to really say what the cause was. However I think their has been enough discussion that based on a few assumptions you could get to a few possibilities. It could have been a flaw in the receptor coating..Or it could be the result of expansive humidity changes.. possibly exposure to light or heat..  I think your right to send the culprit print or at least cuts from it to the supplier to get their nickel on it. I doubt that it was the hinge material at this point but the issue did occur it seemed in it's presence. 
> Realistically their are still a lot of unknowns in our craft. The biggest influence thing I've become aware of in my years of doing this is humidity both in our shop and where the piece is displayed and of course the light it's subjected while on display in a clients environment..
> So all that being said what's going to be different this time?
> 
> jimbo

How about this approach: The cracking gives the print character and further identifies it as a specific print within the series. If a crack develops in an oil painting, is the artist expected to provide a new painting? Your situation does raise some interesting questions; some of which will be impossible to answer, e.g, are environmental factors involved? Are ink jet prints assumed to be warranted for a period of time? Should the owner of the print participate in the remake, e.g., pay for materials?
 
Michael K

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good points. With the prints being sold these days as lasting 100 to 200
years, are the customers expecting the print to look the same on day 1 as
day 1000 or 3000 or? Misinterpreting what archival means may be part of the
issue as is selling these prints based on a need to compete with silver
gelatin prints. We all know they changed over time. The platinum prints made
years ago change, is it really any different? Was the failure in material
caused by the framing techniques used which includes the framing material,
chosen and approved by the customer or was it a natural aging process with
ALL the bits and pieces in place? Are there unreal expectations being sought
here within the industry, the printers, as to product longevity?  I have
said many times that there are just too many possible things going on to get
too wrapped up in claims of forever for print life. Where forever is
hundreds of years. We can only be held responsible for so much. With the
print failures of the old Kodak prints, to the failed cyan early on in
inkjet, there must be some responsibility of the buyer in this process. 
 
Marc was there a warranty on the print spelling out failure or defects? Or
is this a spoiled homeowner used to throwing his financial weight around
looking for a replacement print year after year?  I see a slippery slope
ahead. 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael-K
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 9:14 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Print "cracking" issue
 
  
How about this approach: The cracking gives the print character and further
identifies it as a specific print within the series. If a crack develops in
an oil painting, is the artist expected to provide a new painting? Your
situation does raise some interesting questions; some of which will be
impossible to answer, e.g, are environmental factors involved? Are ink jet
prints assumed to be warranted for a period of time? Should the owner of the
print participate in the remake, e.g., pay for materials?
 
Michael K

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<Marc was there a warranty on the print spelling out failure or defects? Or
<is this a spoiled homeowner used to throwing his financial weight around
<looking for a replacement print year after year? I see a slippery slope
<ahead. 


Very well said.


Gary

baffin@...
http://www.garyallenbrownphoto.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't think of it as a warranty but I do stand behind the product I produce and sell. It is not always about just resolving one issue but MY reputation. I have been in business for over 30 years, this has always worked and still does. The client in this case has every right to question the print, I would, and do. If it is a defective paper issue I would also expect Hahnemuhle to stand up too. This is the only way we all stay professional.

If I was the client I would be doing the same thing, the customer is 100% right on this one.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 7, 2011, at 10:32 AM, E.Neilsen wrote:

> Marc was there a warranty on the print spelling out failure or defects? Or
> is this a spoiled homeowner used to throwing his financial weight around
> looking for a replacement print year after year?  I see a slippery slope
> ahead.

>>> Marc was there a warranty on the print spelling out failure or defects? Or
is this a spoiled homeowner used to throwing his financial weight around
looking for a replacement print year after year? I see a slippery slope
ahead. 

I have to agree. Unless you made some sort of unwise guarantee with this
print, you have no responsibility. We only tell buyers what our suppliers
have told us. If anyone owes anybody anything, the ink and paper makers owe
your client a new printŠ MAYBE!

No one ever goes to a painter and demands a new painting because the colors
aren't exactly the same as they were last year.

Sculptors are not expected to periodically visit their work to wash off the
pigeon poop. (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

At the very least, you should tell your client the cost of a replacement
print will be half the original purchase price. Otherwise he will expect a
new print every few years and THAT will absolutely be YOUR fault!


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@reddoorfinephotographs.com

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How long do you expect prints to stay in the condition that they left the
printer? Over the years I've replaced prints too, and I get the standing
behind your reputation. I think the bottom line is what's reasonable to
expect for all involved. What's reasonable to expect from Hahnemuehle, from
Epson, from Jon Cone, the Framer, from You and the owner.  At what point did
the defect or failure occur? The total cost to replace the print will not be
a fortune.  
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Savoia
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 10:06 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Print "cracking" issue
 
  
I don't think of it as a warranty but I do stand behind the product I
produce and sell. It is not always about just resolving one issue but MY
reputation. I have been in business for over 30 years, this has always
worked and still does. The client in this case has every right to question
the print, I would, and do. If it is a defective paper issue I would also
expect Hahnemuhle to stand up too. This is the only way we all stay
professional.

If I was the client I would be doing the same thing, the customer is 100%
right on this one.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 7, 2011, at 10:32 AM, E.Neilsen wrote:

> Marc was there a warranty on the print spelling out failure or defects? Or
> is this a spoiled homeowner used to throwing his financial weight around
> looking for a replacement print year after year? I see a slippery slope
> ahead. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>> If it is a defective paper issue I would also expect Hahnemuhle to stand up
too.

Don't hold your breath on that one! Manufacturers are notorious for passing
the blame as quickly as possible, especially when they envision the
possibility of replacing millions of dollars worth of paper/prints.

I also wonder about this: if you had to use a loupe to see the cracks, how
did the client notice them and how far beyond the pale is his complaint!?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This discussion makes me want to go back to Arches un-coated Hot Press as my standard "fine art" display medium.

I think with our best pigments the paper is going to be the weak link.  I'm suspicious of any coating or laminate, but Photo Rag has always seemed to be about the most fragile coating at least with respect to being touched.

I've never made a print as large as the one that is being discussed here, but what I've noticed with the 2 by 4 foot panoramas and even some of my 22x28 Arches (140 lb. or about 300 gsm, I believe) prints is that when I hang them with "T" type tape mounts I can sometimes "see" the attachment points in the sense that the paper wants to buckle or sag around those points.  It makes me wonder if larger borders and thicker paper might be needed for these large prints.  I would not want to have the tape behind the actual image area, but there is probably no way to have the floating type of presentation with the mounting I tend to do and favor.

One reason for my plans to set my 7800 up with "dual quad" that includes not only the Eboni-6 inks (4 of them) but also the HP Z3100/3200 PK based inkset is to explore an un-glazed, borderless, "floating" type of display in a shadow box.  I've seen some that look great.  However, all of my older un-glazed display prints, even when sprayed with a protective coating, show signs of damage, usually small scratches or the like, possibly from people trying to clean off dust, finger prints and the like.  Between such damage due to not being under glass/acrylic and the glossy laminates, I don't think this type of display can be considered "archival," and I'm not having second thoughts about the entire approach.

Again, if I were a collector I think I'd want 100% carbon on Arches.  For this tiny minority of (my) purchasers, long term preservation of the image is probably one of the goals and assumptions.  With the vast majority of the prints I sell, the buyers never think of this.  But even with these, it's going to be a real embarrassment if the large prints start to fall apart.  

(Anyone know how to get a 1.7 dmax on Arches -- with 100% carbon???)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

He is younger then I and must have better eyesight, and so did the collector that was there to look at the print. I could barley see it with my glasses but used the loupe to really look at it. Its there.

You have to look at the big picture (no pun intended), I piss him off by saying too bad and he tells all his art friends, that is the slippery slop. My back may be up against a wall but that is life. BTW, this has all been very hospitable.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 7, 2011, at 11:26 AM, David Kachel wrote:

> I also wonder about this: if you had to use a loupe to see the cracks, how
> did the client notice them and how far beyond the pale is his complaint!?

Probably more noticeable around the hinges then one just starts looking..

j

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Kachel 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 9:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Print "cracking" issue


    
  >>> If it is a defective paper issue I would also expect Hahnemuhle to stand up
  too.

  Don't hold your breath on that one! Manufacturers are notorious for passing
  the blame as quickly as possible, especially when they envision the
  possibility of replacing millions of dollars worth of paper/prints.

  I also wonder about this: if you had to use a loupe to see the cracks, how
  did the client notice them and how far beyond the pale is his complaint!?

  David Kachel

  ___________________

  Artist-Photographer
  Fine B&W Photographs

  www.davidkachel.com
  david@...

  Gallery:
  www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
  director@...

  PO Box 1893
  Alpine, TX 79831
  (432) 386-5787

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Correction:
>
> ...  I'm *now* having second thoughts about the entire approach.
[Unglazed glossy prints in shadow boxes]

> 
>...

> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

When these "scratches" are described as being so small and nearly impossible to see, and being "spidery" in shape, I'm wondering if mildew growing on or within the paper should be tossed into the mix. We know that a spidery patterned mildew can grow on the glass surfaces of our lenses. I also had a lcd monitor that developed spidery mildew behind the screen; it got replaced by the extended warranty. If the mildew was printed over it might produce just the effect being described. 
 
Perhaps if you provide one free print and the client pays for the reframing, that should be the end of it.
 
Michael K

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All ideas and options are still on the table (gee, I sound like a politician).

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Michael-K wrote:

> When these "scratches" are described as being so small and nearly impossible to see, and being "spidery" in shape, I'm wondering if mildew growing on or within the paper should be tossed into the mix. We know that a spidery patterned mildew can grow on the glass surfaces of our lenses. I also had a lcd monitor that developed spidery mildew behind the screen; it got replaced by the extended warranty. If the mildew was printed over it might produce just the effect being described. 
>  
> Perhaps if you provide one free print and the client pays for the reframing, that should be the end of it.
>  
> Michael K

Instead of mildew, I should have said fungus; I think it's white. When you get the print you might take a sharp point and try to scrape away some of the "cracks." If it's fungus, the ink may still be underneath.

Michael K

> Instead of mildew, I should have said fungus; I think it's white.

Mildew is a fungus! Specifically, 'powdery mildew' or 'downy mildew' refer 
to particular species of fungi that cause plant diseases, but the terms 
'mold' or 'mildew' are used widely to mean any fungal growth in damp places.

Bob Frost
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael" <michael3442@...>