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Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by Mark

I've just added ID3s 282 - 289 to the Aardenburg Light fade test results database 

http://aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4534c2hvd19kb2NfbGlzdC80

These are samples made on a Durst 51 "digital Enlarger" outputing to "traditional Silver gelatin" print media. RC paper versions and Fiber base versions are in this set. Untoned, selenium toned, and Sepia tones samples are also in the mix. 

A quick result summary: The RC paper has high OBA content, and despite being embedded in a swellable polymer (photographic gelatin) it burns out as quickly as any product I've tested. The Fiber base (FB) version has medium OBA content and therefore does better than the RC version in test. Nevertheless, no "best-in-class" performance when compared to good choices of inkjet media and quality inkjet inks.

Chemical toning improves the results, mainly by leaching some of the OBA content during extended processing, and in the case of Sepia toner, perhaps adding some UV/Blue filtering due to the brown toning of the colloidal silver. That the Aardenburg testing methodology and the I* metric can reveal these subtleties is something for me to be very proud of, all modesty aside. That the industry continues to ignore the value of the i* metric is a bewilderment, because a precise evaluation metric differentiates winners just as much as it  differentiates losers.

best,
Mark
http//www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by Paul Roark

Mark,

Another outstanding contribution to the field.  Thank you.

What are the differences between the Fiber Based samples.  There appear to
be 2 un-toned and 2 selenium toned samples.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Mark <mark@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I've just added ID3s 282 - 289 to the Aardenburg Light fade test results
> database
>
> http://aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4534c2hvd19kb2NfbGlzdC80
>
> These are samples made on a Durst 51 "digital Enlarger" outputing to
> "traditional Silver gelatin" print media. RC paper versions and Fiber base
> versions are in this set. Untoned, selenium toned, and Sepia tones samples
> are also in the mix.
>
> A quick result summary: The RC paper has high OBA content, and despite
> being embedded in a swellable polymer (photographic gelatin) it burns out
> as quickly as any product I've tested. The Fiber base (FB) version has
> medium OBA content and therefore does better than the RC version in test.
> Nevertheless, no "best-in-class" performance when compared to good choices
> of inkjet media and quality inkjet inks.
>
> Chemical toning improves the results, mainly by leaching some of the OBA
> content during extended processing, and in the case of Sepia toner, perhaps
> adding some UV/Blue filtering due to the brown toning of the colloidal
> silver. That the Aardenburg testing methodology and the I* metric can
> reveal these subtleties is something for me to be very proud of, all
> modesty aside. That the industry continues to ignore the value of the i*
> metric is a bewilderment, because a precise evaluation metric
> differentiates winners just as much as it differentiates losers.
>
> best,
> Mark
> http//www.aardenburg-imaging.com
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> What are the differences between the Fiber Based samples.  There appear to
> be 2 un-toned and 2 selenium toned samples.
> 

When I received the prints from the lab, I was somewhat surprised at the dmax of the fiber-based prints. L* min measured approximately 10.0. which is less then 2.0 in density units. Iflord claims up to 2.3 in density for the digital FB Gallerie  paper.  In subsequent discussions with the lab owner, he offered to produce another set of prints on a new batch of paper that had just been received. He sent me new samples of the untoned fiber and the selenium toned fiber. They were made about 10 days after the first ones, and Dmax did go up a little (i.e, L* min went down about 1 more point). I concluded that the maximum density of these replicates was comparable and probably a function of the Durst 51 digital enlarger exposure range if indeed the paper is capable of higher max black as Ilford claims. Anyway, I decided to include both sample sets in test as replicates. 

Variability is a little higher on the lower CDR scores for the replicates than I usually get with inkjet media, but it's understandable.  I attribute the slightly bigger variation in test to the fact that all the samples get toned and washed by hand in trays at this photo lab in order to give customers "archival" processing.  It's a well known fact that extended washing can leach additional OBA content from wet process papers that contain OBA, and most darkroom workers I know (myself included) don't pay strict attention to that final wash time. As long as it exceeds a certain amount it is considered good enough archival processing practice.

Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by Mark Savoia

Is the fiber paper used made specially for exposure to digital enlargers?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 23, 2013, at 8:35 AM, Mark wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:
> 
>> What are the differences between the Fiber Based samples.  There appear to
>> be 2 un-toned and 2 selenium toned samples.
>> 
> 
> When I received the prints from the lab, I was somewhat surprised at the dmax of the fiber-based prints. L* min measured approximately 10.0. which is less then 2.0 in density units. Iflord claims up to 2.3 in density for the digital FB Gallerie  paper.  In subsequent discussions with the lab owner, he offered to produce another set of prints on a new batch of paper that had just been received. He sent me new samples of the untoned fiber and the selenium toned fiber. They were made about 10 days after the first ones, and Dmax did go up a little (i.e, L* min went down about 1 more point). I concluded that the maximum density of these replicates was comparable and probably a function of the Durst 51 digital enlarger exposure range if indeed the paper is capable of higher max black as Ilford claims. Anyway, I decided to include both sample sets in test as replicates. 
> 
> Variability is a little higher on the lower CDR scores for the replicates than I usually get with inkjet media, but it's understandable.  I attribute the slightly bigger variation in test to the fact that all the samples get toned and washed by hand in trays at this photo lab in order to give customers "archival" processing.  It's a well known fact that extended washing can leach additional OBA content from wet process papers that contain OBA, and most darkroom workers I know (myself included) don't pay strict attention to that final wash time. As long as it exceeds a certain amount it is considered good enough archival processing practice.
>

Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
>
> Is the fiber paper used made specially for exposure to digital enlargers?
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 

Yes, there's a hyperlink to the specific Ilford product information in each of the test reports.

Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by John Castronovo

Which of course begs the question whether or not traditional silver halide 
paper exposed with an enlarger and hand tray developed would fare much 
better than this new short exposure digital paper which was probably rapidly 
processed in a machine.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: Mark
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 8:56 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness 
results



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> 
wrote:
>
> Is the fiber paper used made specially for exposure to digital enlargers?
>
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
>

Yes, there's a hyperlink to the specific Ilford product information in each 
of the test reports.



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Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Castronovo" <jc@...> wrote:
>
> Which of course begs the question whether or not traditional silver halide 
> paper exposed with an enlarger and hand tray developed would fare much 
> better than this new short exposure digital paper which was probably rapidly 
> processed in a machine.

The OBA content is responsible for these results not the fact that the paper was sensitized for the spectral output of the laser and for high intensity short exposure times. These prints were  indeed machined processed to begin with for develop, rinse, and fix, but then given additional tray processing for those that were toned, plus extended washing by tray or "archival" wash unit for all samples. 

As long as a B&W silver halide paper contains OBAs (and many have for over five decades now), the delicate initial hue and chroma of the image depends on a hybrid system where the image bearing particles may be exceptionally stable but the OBA dyes contributing to the color of the white paper, image highlights, and even mid tones are much more fugitive. 

The surprise for me personally was that the swellable polymer coating (i.e, the photographic gelatin) did not appreciably seem to protect the OBAs from fading in either of these paper types any more than we see for many microporous  inkjet media. This should be the "take home" message for any collectors, curators, conservators,etc. who want to preserve the artist's original work in pristine condition for as long as possible. If the paper has moderate or high OBA content, one needs to regard the print as not very lightfast even when the image forming materials themselves are highly fade resistant, e.g. pure carbon pigment, sepia toned silver particles, etc.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by Paul Roark

John Castronovo <jc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Which of course begs the question whether or not traditional silver halide
> paper exposed with an enlarger and hand tray developed would fare much
> better ...
>

Ilford's Technical information sheet on the digital silver papers here:
http://ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011971657361986.pdf

My bottom line take on it is that this is a fairly standard silver gelatin
paper.  As with the older materials, processing differences will affect how
it ages.  Assuming the processing here was not sloppy, my best guess is
that these differences would not have a significant impact on the tests at
this stage.

At any rate, here are a few notes from the Ilford materials:

"ILFORD GALERIE FB DIGITAL SILVER is a premium
quality black and white, panchromatic photographic
paper that has a neutral image colour. It is coated onto a
double weight Baryta coated fibre base. Overall Product
weight is 310gsm.
...

"The
results are equal to those seen when using conventional
black and white printing materials and exposing
equipment."


"OPTIMUM PERMANENCE
DISH PROCESSING
The standard fixing and washing recommendations will
give excellent print permanence for all commercial needs.
When optimum permanence is needed, perhaps for
archival storage of prints, the following fixing and
washing sequences ...

Ilford also recommends toning for more print protection:
"...  It
is recommended that prints made for display are toned to
protect them from the oxidising gases that are found in
many environments."


[For long term storage Ilford also has recommendations.]

"Briefly
the main conditions are; freedom from chemical
contamination, either airborne or from storage containers,
also protection from high levels of ultra-violet radiation,
particularly sunlight but also fluorescent lighting. ..."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by John Castronovo

Very interesting and good to know Mark. Ilford also makes a warm tone paper 
and I suspect that it doesn't contain an OBA, but I'm not sure if it's 
available for digital exposure and machine processing.

On another note, did you ever hear of a neutral toner which was made by Agfa 
called Sistan? Supposedly it did the same job as selenium toner in that it 
stabilized the free silver ions left in the emulsion after processing but it 
didn't change the color of the print.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: Mark
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:45 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness 
results



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Castronovo" 
<jc@...> wrote:
>
> Which of course begs the question whether or not traditional silver halide
> paper exposed with an enlarger and hand tray developed would fare much
> better than this new short exposure digital paper which was probably 
> rapidly
> processed in a machine.

The OBA content is responsible for these results not the fact that the paper 
was sensitized for the spectral output of the laser and for high intensity 
short exposure times. These prints were  indeed machined processed to begin 
with for develop, rinse, and fix, but then given additional tray processing 
for those that were toned, plus extended washing by tray or "archival" wash 
unit for all samples.

As long as a B&W silver halide paper contains OBAs (and many have for over 
five decades now), the delicate initial hue and chroma of the image depends 
on a hybrid system where the image bearing particles may be exceptionally 
stable but the OBA dyes contributing to the color of the white paper, image 
highlights, and even mid tones are much more fugitive.

The surprise for me personally was that the swellable polymer coating (i.e, 
the photographic gelatin) did not appreciably seem to protect the OBAs from 
fading in either of these paper types any more than we see for many 
microporous  inkjet media. This should be the "take home" message for any 
collectors, curators, conservators,etc. who want to preserve the artist's 
original work in pristine condition for as long as possible. If the paper 
has moderate or high OBA content, one needs to regard the print as not very 
lightfast even when the image forming materials themselves are highly fade 
resistant, e.g. pure carbon pigment, sepia toned silver particles, etc.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com



------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \u201cOWNER\u201d AND 
\u201cMODERATORS\u201d OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Yahoo! Groups Links





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Re: Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by jcphoto52

Hi

Sistan was a great alternative to HCA (Hypo Clearing Agent) as it was done in one step and if one followed a good archival technique (two fixers, double wash) the results where pretty impressive. Added to that, you could still use selenium toning after the complete treatment to improve the archival quality. I did a lot of selenium, a lot of Sistan but not both.

Cheers

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Castronovo" <jc@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On another note, did you ever hear of a neutral toner which was made by Agfa 
> called Sistan? Supposedly it did the same job as selenium toner in that it 
> stabilized the free silver ions left in the emulsion after processing but it 
> didn't change the color of the print.
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by John Castronovo

Sistan wasn't a wash aid like HCA, but rather a means to convert free silver 
ions, the same as a toner would do, so there wouldn't be a point to using 
both Sistan and selenium toner on the same print. We used to offer Sistan 
toning in my old lab and I still have a case of the concentrate in bottles, 
but I was never totally sure if it was marketing hype or a really good 
product because all I had was Agfa's promotional material and never saw an 
independent study.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: jcphoto52
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 5:29 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness 
results

Hi

Sistan was a great alternative to HCA (Hypo Clearing Agent) as it was done 
in one step and if one followed a good archival technique (two fixers, 
double wash) the results where pretty impressive. Added to that, you could 
still use selenium toning after the complete treatment to improve the 
archival quality. I did a lot of selenium, a lot of Sistan but not both.

Cheers

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Castronovo" 
<jc@...> wrote:

> On another note, did you ever hear of a neutral toner which was made by 
> Agfa
> called Sistan? Supposedly it did the same job as selenium toner in that it
> stabilized the free silver ions left in the emulsion after processing but 
> it
> didn't change the color of the print.
>
>



------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See \u201cGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\u201d in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \u201cOWNER\u201d AND 
\u201cMODERATORS\u201d OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \u201cOWNER\u201d AND 
\u201cMODERATORS\u201d OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Yahoo! Groups Links





-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: Digital Silver Gelatin Print light fastness results

2013-04-23 by davidkachel

If I understand you correctly, that fixing, then washing, followed by selenium toning, is what you are saying, then that would lead to very unhappy results.

Selenium toner contains very substantial quantities of ammonium thiosulfate (rapid fix) and therefore any selenium toned paper would have to be re-cleared and rewashed afterward.

Apologies if I misunderstand the order of process you intended to impart.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jcphoto52" <jacques.caron@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi
> 
> Sistan was a great alternative to HCA (Hypo Clearing Agent) as it was done in one step and if one followed a good archival technique (two fixers, double wash) the results where pretty impressive. Added to that, you could still use selenium toning after the complete treatment to improve the archival quality. I did a lot of selenium, a lot of Sistan but not both.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Castronovo" <jc@> wrote:
> 
> > On another note, did you ever hear of a neutral toner which was made by Agfa 
> > called Sistan? Supposedly it did the same job as selenium toner in that it 
> > stabilized the free silver ions left in the emulsion after processing but it 
> > didn't change the color of the print.
> > 
> >
>

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