Digital BW, The Print

Hi Martin, hi Antonis, hi everybody


At first let me thank you for inviting me to join this list. 
So far I´ve only been a member of the piezo list where I´ve 
learned a lot of you piezo-guys while my input was rather small. 
Thank you all for your generous attitude in sharing your 
experiences.
So what could be my input to this list.
Well, I know that the German Fine Art Papers of the Hahnemühle 
are loved a lot by Fine Art Printers world wide. Unfortunately there 
has been great confusion in the past about their papers caused 
by different labels used by different distributors, coating changes 
by Hahnemühle and private coatings of resellers. But 
nevertheless W. Turner (Wells River and so on ), German 
Etching (Orwell and so on) and for some of us Torchon too, 
seem to be recognized as first choice papers if it comes to the 
high end.
But there have been some critics too. 
The surface-character of Torchon is disputed (loved by some, 
hated by others – depending on the kind of images to be 
reproduced I suppose).
The surface of W. Turner is criticised a lot because of flaking 
problems and its haptic characteristics (sandy!!).  Even the 
surface of German Etching is not satisfying for everybody (not 
smooth enough and sometimes flaking). 
I tried to transmitt those critics to Hahnemühle in the past and 
surprise: they took it serious and even admitted the problems. 
As a consolation they told me, that they will come up with a new 
paper in August/September which should resolve those 
problems. It is called PHOTO RAG and will be 100% rag/cotton, 
acid free with a smoother surface than W. Turner while keeping 
its print characteristics.
I´ll get some sample sheets this week and will report on their 
printing characteristics with piezo inks next week. Lets see if it 
holds promise.

Well I´m no Hahnemühle employee, so what else is new  at the 
German Fine Art Paper Front:
Someone of the piezo-list –guys mentioned Schoellershammer 
papers some weeks ago. Schoellershammer is a traditional 
German paper mill too, some hundred years old. They are 
producing fine art inkjet papers for some times , what  I didn´t 
know until now. Meanwhile I ordered a sample pack, which 
arrived some days ago, and I printed some papers. Here come 
some PLELIMINARY results:

1. All papers are acid free 100 % rag
2. Schoellershammer claim to have optimized coating for dye 
based inks (what doesn´t exclude to use pigment-inks)
3. their labeling is absolutely confusion to me that means: 
although they call some of  their paper qualities rough, these are 
very very smooth (sic!!!)
4. they have at least one paper, which may be an absolute 
winner for piezo-users

1. paper quality is called:	Watercolor Quality: Torchon, 200 gsm
2. paper quality is called:	Watercolor/Pastel Quality: Rough, 200 
gsm
3. paper quality is called:	Watercolor Quality: Rough, 225, 300 
gsm
4. paper quality is called:	Oilcolor Quality: Coarse Linen, 200, 
300 gsm

ad 1. Torchon is rather alike Torchon of Hahnemühle, special 
surface for special indications in my opinion, not my game, 
didn´t print on it yet.
ad 2. Pastell rough 200gsm:  didn´t take the piezo ink very well, 
overall impression was: flaw. But I had only one sheet and 
printed with the Orwell profile, so maybe another profile works 
better. But 200 gsm is a little thin, no?

ad 3: Watercolor rough: had only two sheets. One 225 and one 
300. printed on the 225 sheet with the Orwell profile first:  result 
too dark, no serious comment possible. Printed the second 
sheet (300) after some curve tweaking in PS and surprise: it 
came out like my best prints on Epson Archival Matte, Somerset 
or even German Etching.
A winner for piezo, I believe (so far). 
Why: It is 100 % rag, it has 300gsm, the surface is a lot 
smoother than W. Turner, even significantly smoother than 
German Etching though a very little less smooth than Epsom 
Archival Matte. The color is like German Etching, which means 
not as bright white as EAM. Print Quality was surprisingly good if 
you take in account that the paper is not profiled yet and I took the 
Orwell profile by chance.
I ordered some sheets and will report again. Hope the paper 
fulfils my expectations.
ad 4.: Coarse linen: nothing for serious fine art printing in my 
opinion. Like Hahnemühle Canvas Artist. Didn´t print on it.

So to answer my question about a possible input to this list:
As I am aware of the language barrier some of the users might 
have when they have questions or comments with reference to 
the German Fine Art Papers I could offer to be a transmitter of 
our critics and wishes to the German industry. If that is 
appreciated – feel free to contact me onlinne or offline.

So long.
And good luck to the list.
Bernd Langmack
Essen, Germany

Bernd,

Welcome and thank you for delivering all the information and news! It 
sounds like the German paper companies have indeed taken notice of 
the demand for art papers! I can't wait to get my hands on some of 
the new papers you have described.

As you get a chance to browse through the posts so far you will note 
that we have been joined by people who are using dye based ink sets 
and achieving some incredible Dmax's. So if you would also keep your 
eye out for likely papers for these inks it would be much appreciated.

If you have a second printer running with standard dye inks, even 
CYMK, you might try some of the new "made for dye" papers and give us 
your impressions. I know that the samples you get are limited in 
quantity, but if there are things that are poor with Piezo inks but 
might be good with dyes maybe you can pass them on. Perhaps someone 
in the EU working with dye inks will turn up on the list.

Ron Landucci has given us some reports on the Spectratone Quadtone 
inks and Oce papers. Oce is a French company I believe. I don't know 
if they manufacture there own paper but this might be another EU 
paper source for you. I have used Oce plotters and the company always 
impressed me with their quality and innovation.

For those of you who are not aware, art paper sources in Europe are a 
real problem. Those of us in the US have more resources and lower 
costs even though much of the paper is made in Europe. A frustrating 
situation.

Please keep posting the paper information as it is indeed of interest 
to all the inkjet users. I hope to put together a list of all the 
paper manufactures, their names for their papers, re-branded names 
and a list of retail sources (EU sources too). 

Thanks,

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ruhrfoto@y... wrote:
> Hi Martin, hi Antonis, hi everybody
> 
> 
> At first let me thank you for inviting me to join this list. 
> So far I´ve only been a member of the piezo list where I´ve 
> learned a lot of you piezo-guys while my input was rather small. 
> Thank you all for your generous attitude in sharing your 
> experiences.
> So what could be my input to this list.
> Well, I know that the German Fine Art Papers of the Hahnemühle 
> are loved a lot by Fine Art Printers world wide. Unfortunately 
there 
> has been great confusion in the past about their papers caused 
> by different labels used by different distributors, coating changes 
> by Hahnemühle and private coatings of resellers. But 
> nevertheless W. Turner (Wells River and so on ), German 
> Etching (Orwell and so on) and for some of us Torchon too, 
> seem to be recognized as first choice papers if it comes to the 
> high end.
> But there have been some critics too. 
> The surface-character of Torchon is disputed (loved by some, 
> hated by others – depending on the kind of images to be 
> reproduced I suppose).
> The surface of W. Turner is criticised a lot because of flaking 
> problems and its haptic characteristics (sandy!!).  Even the 
> surface of German Etching is not satisfying for everybody (not 
> smooth enough and sometimes flaking). 
> I tried to transmitt those critics to Hahnemühle in the past and 
> surprise: they took it serious and even admitted the problems. 
> As a consolation they told me, that they will come up with a new 
> paper in August/September which should resolve those 
> problems. It is called PHOTO RAG and will be 100% rag/cotton, 
> acid free with a smoother surface than W. Turner while keeping 
> its print characteristics.
> I´ll get some sample sheets this week and will report on their 
> printing characteristics with piezo inks next week. Lets see if it 
> holds promise.
> 
> Well I´m no Hahnemühle employee, so what else is new  at the 
> German Fine Art Paper Front:
> Someone of the piezo-list –guys mentioned Schoellershammer 
> papers some weeks ago. Schoellershammer is a traditional 
> German paper mill too, some hundred years old. They are 
> producing fine art inkjet papers for some times , what  I didn´t 
> know until now. Meanwhile I ordered a sample pack, which 
> arrived some days ago, and I printed some papers. Here come 
> some PLELIMINARY results:
> 
> 1. All papers are acid free 100 % rag
> 2. Schoellershammer claim to have optimized coating for dye 
> based inks (what doesn´t exclude to use pigment-inks)
> 3. their labeling is absolutely confusion to me that means: 
> although they call some of  their paper qualities rough, these are 
> very very smooth (sic!!!)
> 4. they have at least one paper, which may be an absolute 
> winner for piezo-users
> 
> 1. paper quality is called:	Watercolor Quality: Torchon, 200 gsm
> 2. paper quality is called:	Watercolor/Pastel Quality: Rough, 200 
> gsm
> 3. paper quality is called:	Watercolor Quality: Rough, 225, 300 
> gsm
> 4. paper quality is called:	Oilcolor Quality: Coarse Linen, 200, 
> 300 gsm
> 
> ad 1. Torchon is rather alike Torchon of Hahnemühle, special 
> surface for special indications in my opinion, not my game, 
> didn´t print on it yet.
> ad 2. Pastell rough 200gsm:  didn´t take the piezo ink very well, 
> overall impression was: flaw. But I had only one sheet and 
> printed with the Orwell profile, so maybe another profile works 
> better. But 200 gsm is a little thin, no?
> 
> ad 3: Watercolor rough: had only two sheets. One 225 and one 
> 300. printed on the 225 sheet with the Orwell profile first:  
result 
> too dark, no serious comment possible. Printed the second 
> sheet (300) after some curve tweaking in PS and surprise: it 
> came out like my best prints on Epson Archival Matte, Somerset 
> or even German Etching.
> A winner for piezo, I believe (so far). 
> Why: It is 100 % rag, it has 300gsm, the surface is a lot 
> smoother than W. Turner, even significantly smoother than 
> German Etching though a very little less smooth than Epsom 
> Archival Matte. The color is like German Etching, which means 
> not as bright white as EAM. Print Quality was surprisingly good if 
> you take in account that the paper is not profiled yet and I took 
the 

> Orwell profile by chance.
> I ordered some sheets and will report again. Hope the paper 
> fulfils my expectations.
> ad 4.: Coarse linen: nothing for serious fine art printing in my 
> opinion. Like Hahnemühle Canvas Artist. Didn´t print on it.
> 
> So to answer my question about a possible input to this list:
> As I am aware of the language barrier some of the users might 
> have when they have questions or comments with reference to 
> the German Fine Art Papers I could offer to be a transmitter of 
> our critics and wishes to the German industry. If that is 
> appreciated – feel free to contact me onlinne or offline.
> 
> So long.
> And good luck to the list.
> Bernd Langmack
> Essen, Germany

Hi Martin,

A friend of mine, Jerry Olson, has been trying to join the list but 
has run into problems with the form.  I don't know if he is the only 
one but here is a Head's Up.

Tim 















--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... wrote:
> Bernd,
> 
> Welcome and thank you for delivering all the information and news! 
It 
> sounds like the German paper companies have indeed taken notice of 
> the demand for art papers! I can't wait to get my hands on some of 
> the new papers you have described.
> 
> As you get a chance to browse through the posts so far you will 
note 
> that we have been joined by people who are using dye based ink sets 
> and achieving some incredible Dmax's. So if you would also keep 
your 
> eye out for likely papers for these inks it would be much 
appreciated.
> 
> If you have a second printer running with standard dye inks, even 
> CYMK, you might try some of the new "made for dye" papers and give 
us 
> your impressions. I know that the samples you get are limited in 
> quantity, but if there are things that are poor with Piezo inks but 
> might be good with dyes maybe you can pass them on. Perhaps someone 
> in the EU working with dye inks will turn up on the list.
> 
> Ron Landucci has given us some reports on the Spectratone Quadtone 
> inks and Oce papers. Oce is a French company I believe. I don't 
know 
> if they manufacture there own paper but this might be another EU 
> paper source for you. I have used Oce plotters and the company 
always 
> impressed me with their quality and innovation.
> 
> For those of you who are not aware, art paper sources in Europe are 
a 
> real problem. Those of us in the US have more resources and lower 
> costs even though much of the paper is made in Europe. A 
frustrating 
> situation.
> 
> Please keep posting the paper information as it is indeed of 
interest 
> to all the inkjet users. I hope to put together a list of all the 
> paper manufactures, their names for their papers, re-branded names 
> and a list of retail sources (EU sources too). 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ruhrfoto@y... wrote:
> > Hi Martin, hi Antonis, hi everybody
> > 
> > 
> > At first let me thank you for inviting me to join this list. 
> > So far I´ve only been a member of the piezo list where I´ve 
> > learned a lot of you piezo-guys while my input was rather small. 
> > Thank you all for your generous attitude in sharing your 
> > experiences.
> > So what could be my input to this list.
> > Well, I know that the German Fine Art Papers of the Hahnemühle 
> > are loved a lot by Fine Art Printers world wide. Unfortunately 
> there 
> > has been great confusion in the past about their papers caused 
> > by different labels used by different distributors, coating 
changes 
> > by Hahnemühle and private coatings of resellers. But 
> > nevertheless W. Turner (Wells River and so on ), German 
> > Etching (Orwell and so on) and for some of us Torchon too, 
> > seem to be recognized as first choice papers if it comes to the 
> > high end.
> > But there have been some critics too. 
> > The surface-character of Torchon is disputed (loved by some, 
> > hated by others – depending on the kind of images to be 
> > reproduced I suppose).
> > The surface of W. Turner is criticised a lot because of flaking 
> > problems and its haptic characteristics (sandy!!).  Even the 
> > surface of German Etching is not satisfying for everybody (not 
> > smooth enough and sometimes flaking). 
> > I tried to transmitt those critics to Hahnemühle in the past and 
> > surprise: they took it serious and even admitted the problems. 
> > As a consolation they told me, that they will come up with a new 
> > paper in August/September which should resolve those 
> > problems. It is called PHOTO RAG and will be 100% rag/cotton, 
> > acid free with a smoother surface than W. Turner while keeping 
> > its print characteristics.
> > I´ll get some sample sheets this week and will report on their 
> > printing characteristics with piezo inks next week. Lets see if 
it 
> > holds promise.
> > 
> > Well I´m no Hahnemühle employee, so what else is new  at the 
> > German Fine Art Paper Front:
> > Someone of the piezo-list –guys mentioned Schoellershammer 
> > papers some weeks ago. Schoellershammer is a traditional 
> > German paper mill too, some hundred years old. They are 
> > producing fine art inkjet papers for some times , what  I didn´t 
> > know until now. Meanwhile I ordered a sample pack, which 
> > arrived some days ago, and I printed some papers. Here come 
> > some PLELIMINARY results:
> > 
> > 1. All papers are acid free 100 % rag
> > 2. Schoellershammer claim to have optimized coating for dye 
> > based inks (what doesn´t exclude to use pigment-inks)
> > 3. their labeling is absolutely confusion to me that means: 
> > although they call some of  their paper qualities rough, these 
are 
> > very very smooth (sic!!!)
> > 4. they have at least one paper, which may be an absolute 
> > winner for piezo-users
> > 
> > 1. paper quality is called:	Watercolor Quality: Torchon, 200 gsm
> > 2. paper quality is called:	Watercolor/Pastel Quality: Rough, 200 
> > gsm
> > 3. paper quality is called:	Watercolor Quality: Rough, 225, 300 
> > gsm
> > 4. paper quality is called:	Oilcolor Quality: Coarse Linen, 200, 
> > 300 gsm
> > 
> > ad 1. Torchon is rather alike Torchon of Hahnemühle, special 
> > surface for special indications in my opinion, not my game, 
> > didn´t print on it yet.
> > ad 2. Pastell rough 200gsm:  didn´t take the piezo ink very well, 
> > overall impression was: flaw. But I had only one sheet and 
> > printed with the Orwell profile, so maybe another profile works 
> > better. But 200 gsm is a little thin, no?
> > 
> > ad 3: Watercolor rough: had only two sheets. One 225 and one 
> > 300. printed on the 225 sheet with the Orwell profile first:  
> result 
> > too dark, no serious comment possible. Printed the second 
> > sheet (300) after some curve tweaking in PS and surprise: it 
> > came out like my best prints on Epson Archival Matte, Somerset 
> > or even German Etching.
> > A winner for piezo, I believe (so far). 
> > Why: It is 100 % rag, it has 300gsm, the surface is a lot 
> > smoother than W. Turner, even significantly smoother than 
> > German Etching though a very little less smooth than Epsom 
> > Archival Matte. The color is like German Etching, which means 
> > not as bright white as EAM. Print Quality was surprisingly good 
if 

> > you take in account that the paper is not profiled yet and I took 
> the 
> > Orwell profile by chance.
> > I ordered some sheets and will report again. Hope the paper 
> > fulfils my expectations.
> > ad 4.: Coarse linen: nothing for serious fine art printing in my 
> > opinion. Like Hahnemühle Canvas Artist. Didn´t print on it.
> > 
> > So to answer my question about a possible input to this list:
> > As I am aware of the language barrier some of the users might 
> > have when they have questions or comments with reference to 
> > the German Fine Art Papers I could offer to be a transmitter of 
> > our critics and wishes to the German industry. If that is 
> > appreciated – feel free to contact me onlinne or offline.
> > 
> > So long.
> > And good luck to the list.
> > Bernd Langmack
> > Essen, Germany

tyork@... <tyork@...> writes on 31 July 2001 at 16:40:30 -0000

 > A friend of mine, Jerry Olson, has been trying to join the list but 
 > has run into problems with the form.  I don't know if he is the only 
 > one but here is a Head's Up.

Attempting to join through the page at yahoo consistently causes my
browser to crash with an illegal instruction fault.  I signed up by
sending email to the subscription address on the page, and that worked
fine; I'd recommend that approach to anybody having trouble with the
form. 
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet      /      Welcome to the future!      /      dd-b@...
Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/  
Booknotes: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/

Tim, I had problems as well. There is a 'sub by email' alternative at the
foot of the page describing the group. I had to use that. Basically send a
blank email to :
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-subscribe@yahoogroups.com  and it owrks.
Otherwise you seem to have to set up Yahoo emails and all sorts.

Julian

From: <tyork@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 6:40 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: German Fine Art Papers (long)


Hi Martin,

A friend of mine, Jerry Olson, has been trying to join the list but
has run into problems with the form.  I don't know if he is the only
one but here is a Head's Up.

Tim















--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... wrote:
> Bernd,
>
> Welcome and thank you for delivering all the information and news!
It
> sounds like the German paper companies have indeed taken notice of
> the demand for art papers! I can't wait to get my hands on some of
> the new papers you have described.
>
> As you get a chance to browse through the posts so far you will
note
> that we have been joined by people who are using dye based ink sets
> and achieving some incredible Dmax's. So if you would also keep
your
> eye out for likely papers for these inks it would be much
appreciated.
>
> If you have a second printer running with standard dye inks, even
> CYMK, you might try some of the new "made for dye" papers and give
us
> your impressions. I know that the samples you get are limited in
> quantity, but if there are things that are poor with Piezo inks but
> might be good with dyes maybe you can pass them on. Perhaps someone
> in the EU working with dye inks will turn up on the list.
>
> Ron Landucci has given us some reports on the Spectratone Quadtone
> inks and Oce papers. Oce is a French company I believe. I don't
know
> if they manufacture there own paper but this might be another EU
> paper source for you. I have used Oce plotters and the company
always
> impressed me with their quality and innovation.
>
> For those of you who are not aware, art paper sources in Europe are
a
> real problem. Those of us in the US have more resources and lower
> costs even though much of the paper is made in Europe. A
frustrating
> situation.
>
> Please keep posting the paper information as it is indeed of
interest
> to all the inkjet users. I hope to put together a list of all the
> paper manufactures, their names for their papers, re-branded names
> and a list of retail sources (EU sources too).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ruhrfoto@y... wrote:
> > Hi Martin, hi Antonis, hi everybody
> >
> >
> > At first let me thank you for inviting me to join this list.
> > So far I\ufffdve only been a member of the piezo list where I\ufffdve
> > learned a lot of you piezo-guys while my input was rather small.
> > Thank you all for your generous attitude in sharing your
> > experiences.
> > So what could be my input to this list.
> > Well, I know that the German Fine Art Papers of the Hahnem\ufffdhle
> > are loved a lot by Fine Art Printers world wide. Unfortunately
> there
> > has been great confusion in the past about their papers caused
> > by different labels used by different distributors, coating
changes
> > by Hahnem\ufffdhle and private coatings of resellers. But
> > nevertheless W. Turner (Wells River and so on ), German
> > Etching (Orwell and so on) and for some of us Torchon too,
> > seem to be recognized as first choice papers if it comes to the
> > high end.
> > But there have been some critics too.
> > The surface-character of Torchon is disputed (loved by some,
> > hated by others - depending on the kind of images to be
> > reproduced I suppose).
> > The surface of W. Turner is criticised a lot because of flaking
> > problems and its haptic characteristics (sandy!!).  Even the
> > surface of German Etching is not satisfying for everybody (not
> > smooth enough and sometimes flaking).
> > I tried to transmitt those critics to Hahnem\ufffdhle in the past and
> > surprise: they took it serious and even admitted the problems.
> > As a consolation they told me, that they will come up with a new
> > paper in August/September which should resolve those
> > problems. It is called PHOTO RAG and will be 100% rag/cotton,
> > acid free with a smoother surface than W. Turner while keeping
> > its print characteristics.
> > I\ufffdll get some sample sheets this week and will report on their
> > printing characteristics with piezo inks next week. Lets see if
it
> > holds promise.
> >
> > Well I\ufffdm no Hahnem\ufffdhle employee, so what else is new  at the
> > German Fine Art Paper Front:
> > Someone of the piezo-list -guys mentioned Schoellershammer
> > papers some weeks ago. Schoellershammer is a traditional
> > German paper mill too, some hundred years old. They are
> > producing fine art inkjet papers for some times , what  I didn\ufffdt
> > know until now. Meanwhile I ordered a sample pack, which
> > arrived some days ago, and I printed some papers. Here come
> > some PLELIMINARY results:
> >
> > 1. All papers are acid free 100 % rag
> > 2. Schoellershammer claim to have optimized coating for dye
> > based inks (what doesn\ufffdt exclude to use pigment-inks)
> > 3. their labeling is absolutely confusion to me that means:
> > although they call some of  their paper qualities rough, these
are
> > very very smooth (sic!!!)
> > 4. they have at least one paper, which may be an absolute
> > winner for piezo-users
> >
> > 1. paper quality is called: Watercolor Quality: Torchon, 200 gsm
> > 2. paper quality is called: Watercolor/Pastel Quality: Rough, 200
> > gsm
> > 3. paper quality is called: Watercolor Quality: Rough, 225, 300
> > gsm
> > 4. paper quality is called: Oilcolor Quality: Coarse Linen, 200,
> > 300 gsm
> >
> > ad 1. Torchon is rather alike Torchon of Hahnem\ufffdhle, special
> > surface for special indications in my opinion, not my game,
> > didn\ufffdt print on it yet.
> > ad 2. Pastell rough 200gsm:  didn\ufffdt take the piezo ink very well,
> > overall impression was: flaw. But I had only one sheet and
> > printed with the Orwell profile, so maybe another profile works
> > better. But 200 gsm is a little thin, no?
> >
> > ad 3: Watercolor rough: had only two sheets. One 225 and one
> > 300. printed on the 225 sheet with the Orwell profile first:
> result
> > too dark, no serious comment possible. Printed the second
> > sheet (300) after some curve tweaking in PS and surprise: it
> > came out like my best prints on Epson Archival Matte, Somerset
> > or even German Etching.
> > A winner for piezo, I believe (so far).
> > Why: It is 100 % rag, it has 300gsm, the surface is a lot
> > smoother than W. Turner, even significantly smoother than
> > German Etching though a very little less smooth than Epsom
> > Archival Matte. The color is like German Etching, which means
> > not as bright white as EAM. Print Quality was surprisingly good
if
> > you take in account that the paper is not profiled yet and I took
> the
> > Orwell profile by chance.
> > I ordered some sheets and will report again. Hope the paper
> > fulfils my expectations.
> > ad 4.: Coarse linen: nothing for serious fine art printing in my
> > opinion. Like Hahnem\ufffdhle Canvas Artist. Didn\ufffdt print on it.
> >
> > So to answer my question about a possible input to this list:
> > As I am aware of the language barrier some of the users might
> > have when they have questions or comments with reference to
> > the German Fine Art Papers I could offer to be a transmitter of
> > our critics and wishes to the German industry. If that is
> > appreciated - feel free to contact me onlinne or offline.
> >
> > So long.
> > And good luck to the list.
> > Bernd Langmack
> > Essen, Germany



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Tim,

Todd forwarded me a message that Jerry was having a problem getting 
on and I e-mailed Jerry with some suggestions. Someone else had some 
problems but did finally get on. 

Thanks for the alert.

Anyone with problems can e-mail me on my home computer at 
mwesley250@... (evenings and weekends)or at 
blueto49@...(M-F, 8AM to 5PM) I'm in California so those are 
Pacific Daylight Savings times. Or try e-mailing the group directly 
at digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com I will try and walk 
you though any problems you are encountering getting on.

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., tyork@a... wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> A friend of mine, Jerry Olson, has been trying to join the list but 
> has run into problems with the form.  I don't know if he is the 
only 
> one but here is a Head's Up.
> 
> Tim 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... wrote:
> > Bernd,
> > 
> > Welcome and thank you for delivering all the information and 
news! 
> It 
> > sounds like the German paper companies have indeed taken notice 
of 
> > the demand for art papers! I can't wait to get my hands on some 
of 
> > the new papers you have described.
> > 
> > As you get a chance to browse through the posts so far you will 
> note 
> > that we have been joined by people who are using dye based ink 
sets 
> > and achieving some incredible Dmax's. So if you would also keep 
> your 
> > eye out for likely papers for these inks it would be much 
> appreciated.
> > 
> > If you have a second printer running with standard dye inks, even 
> > CYMK, you might try some of the new "made for dye" papers and 
give 
> us 
> > your impressions. I know that the samples you get are limited in 
> > quantity, but if there are things that are poor with Piezo inks 
but 
> > might be good with dyes maybe you can pass them on. Perhaps 
someone 
> > in the EU working with dye inks will turn up on the list.
> > 
> > Ron Landucci has given us some reports on the Spectratone 
Quadtone 
> > inks and Oce papers. Oce is a French company I believe. I don't 
> know 
> > if they manufacture there own paper but this might be another EU 
> > paper source for you. I have used Oce plotters and the company 
> always 
> > impressed me with their quality and innovation.
> > 
> > For those of you who are not aware, art paper sources in Europe 
are 
> a 
> > real problem. Those of us in the US have more resources and lower 
> > costs even though much of the paper is made in Europe. A 
> frustrating 
> > situation.
> > 
> > Please keep posting the paper information as it is indeed of 
> interest 
> > to all the inkjet users. I hope to put together a list of all the 
> > paper manufactures, their names for their papers, re-branded 
names 
> > and a list of retail sources (EU sources too). 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Martin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ruhrfoto@y... wrote:
> > > Hi Martin, hi Antonis, hi everybody
> > > 
> > > 
> > > At first let me thank you for inviting me to join this list. 
> > > So far I´ve only been a member of the piezo list where I´ve 
> > > learned a lot of you piezo-guys while my input was rather 
small. 
> > > Thank you all for your generous attitude in sharing your 
> > > experiences.
> > > So what could be my input to this list.
> > > Well, I know that the German Fine Art Papers of the Hahnemühle 
> > > are loved a lot by Fine Art Printers world wide. Unfortunately 
> > there 
> > > has been great confusion in the past about their papers caused 
> > > by different labels used by different distributors, coating 
> changes 
> > > by Hahnemühle and private coatings of resellers. But 
> > > nevertheless W. Turner (Wells River and so on ), German 
> > > Etching (Orwell and so on) and for some of us Torchon too, 
> > > seem to be recognized as first choice papers if it comes to the 
> > > high end.
> > > But there have been some critics too. 
> > > The surface-character of Torchon is disputed (loved by some, 
> > > hated by others – depending on the kind of images to be 
> > > reproduced I suppose).
> > > The surface of W. Turner is criticised a lot because of flaking 
> > > problems and its haptic characteristics (sandy!!).  Even the 
> > > surface of German Etching is not satisfying for everybody (not 
> > > smooth enough and sometimes flaking). 
> > > I tried to transmitt those critics to Hahnemühle in the past 
and 
> > > surprise: they took it serious and even admitted the problems. 
> > > As a consolation they told me, that they will come up with a 
new 
> > > paper in August/September which should resolve those 
> > > problems. It is called PHOTO RAG and will be 100% rag/cotton, 
> > > acid free with a smoother surface than W. Turner while keeping 
> > > its print characteristics.
> > > I´ll get some sample sheets this week and will report on their 
> > > printing characteristics with piezo inks next week. Lets see if 
> it 
> > > holds promise.
> > > 
> > > Well I´m no Hahnemühle employee, so what else is new  at the 
> > > German Fine Art Paper Front:
> > > Someone of the piezo-list –guys mentioned Schoellershammer 
> > > papers some weeks ago. Schoellershammer is a traditional 
> > > German paper mill too, some hundred years old. They are 
> > > producing fine art inkjet papers for some times , what  I 
didn´t 
> > > know until now. Meanwhile I ordered a sample pack, which 
> > > arrived some days ago, and I printed some papers. Here come 
> > > some PLELIMINARY results:
> > > 
> > > 1. All papers are acid free 100 % rag
> > > 2. Schoellershammer claim to have optimized coating for dye 
> > > based inks (what doesn´t exclude to use pigment-inks)
> > > 3. their labeling is absolutely confusion to me that means: 
> > > although they call some of  their paper qualities rough, these 
> are 
> > > very very smooth (sic!!!)
> > > 4. they have at least one paper, which may be an absolute 
> > > winner for piezo-users
> > > 
> > > 1. paper quality is called:	Watercolor Quality: Torchon, 
200 gsm
> > > 2. paper quality is called:	Watercolor/Pastel Quality: 
Rough, 200 
> > > gsm
> > > 3. paper quality is called:	Watercolor Quality: Rough, 
225, 300 
> > > gsm
> > > 4. paper quality is called:	Oilcolor Quality: Coarse 
Linen, 200, 
> > > 300 gsm
> > > 
> > > ad 1. Torchon is rather alike Torchon of Hahnemühle, special 
> > > surface for special indications in my opinion, not my game, 
> > > didn´t print on it yet.
> > > ad 2. Pastell rough 200gsm:  didn´t take the piezo ink very 
well, 
> > > overall impression was: flaw. But I had only one sheet and 
> > > printed with the Orwell profile, so maybe another profile works 
> > > better. But 200 gsm is a little thin, no?
> > > 
> > > ad 3: Watercolor rough: had only two sheets. One 225 and one 
> > > 300. printed on the 225 sheet with the Orwell profile first:  
> > result 
> > > too dark, no serious comment possible. Printed the second 
> > > sheet (300) after some curve tweaking in PS and surprise: it 
> > > came out like my best prints on Epson Archival Matte, Somerset 
> > > or even German Etching.
> > > A winner for piezo, I believe (so far). 
> > > Why: It is 100 % rag, it has 300gsm, the surface is a lot 
> > > smoother than W. Turner, even significantly smoother than 
> > > German Etching though a very little less smooth than Epsom 
> > > Archival Matte. The color is like German Etching, which means 
> > > not as bright white as EAM. Print Quality was surprisingly good 
> if 
> > > you take in account that the paper is not profiled yet and I 
took 
> > the 
> > > Orwell profile by chance.
> > > I ordered some sheets and will report again. Hope the paper 
> > > fulfils my expectations.
> > > ad 4.: Coarse linen: nothing for serious fine art printing in 
my 

> > > opinion. Like Hahnemühle Canvas Artist. Didn´t print on it.
> > > 
> > > So to answer my question about a possible input to this list:
> > > As I am aware of the language barrier some of the users might 
> > > have when they have questions or comments with reference to 
> > > the German Fine Art Papers I could offer to be a transmitter of 
> > > our critics and wishes to the German industry. If that is 
> > > appreciated – feel free to contact me onlinne or offline.
> > > 
> > > So long.
> > > And good luck to the list.
> > > Bernd Langmack
> > > Essen, Germany

Julian and David,

Thank you very much for the sign-up info.

Once again that e-mail address is
 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 

I have also tweaked the group settings to allow non group members to  
post without joining the group. We will see if this works.

This is obviously very frustrating but I guess we are getting what we 
paid for. The group seems looks to be off to a good start and 
attempting to relocate at this point would just add to the confusion 
but some day...

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Tim, I had problems as well. There is a 'sub by email' alternative 
at the
> foot of the page describing the group. I had to use that. Basically 
send a
> blank email to :
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-subscribe@y...  and it owrks.
> Otherwise you seem to have to set up Yahoo emails and all sorts.
> 
> Julian
> 
> 
> From: <tyork@a...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 6:40 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: German Fine Art Papers (long)
> 
> 
> Hi Martin,
> 
> A friend of mine, Jerry Olson, has been trying to join the list but
> has run into problems with the form.  I don't know if he is the only
> one but here is a Head's Up.
> 
> Tim
> 
(snip earlier)