Digital BW, The Print

how have you got hold of these messages? shouldn't you have asked for
clearance first?

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "greg_pop" <greg@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 4:39 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about Photography


> Hi everybody,
>
> I am pleased to announce that a new web site containing a wealth of
> information about photography (including quite a few conversation
> threads from this great forum) is available. The URL is:
>
> http://www.binbooks.com/photo
>
> The folders of greatest interest to this group are the following:
>
> http://www.binbooks.com/books/photo/bidx/l/53CA6AFA90
> http://www.binbooks.com/books/photo/bidx/l/53E86AFA90
> http://www.binbooks.com/books/photo/bidx/l/53E16AE552
>
> I hope you will enjoy reading some of the conversation threads from
> this forum in a more attractive format, and I also hope no one will
> be offended that we took the liberty to include them in the Photo
> Binbook. Since every message has an implicit copyright by its author,
> we will add a feature which allows any author to remove his messages
> from our Binbooks, but in the meantime please email me at
> gregory@....
>
> This site was created using the 'Binbook' technology developed by
> Binbooks Corporation, which allows the creation of structured web
> sites based on Usenet and mailing lists postings. It currently
> requires a DHTML capable browser, such as Internet Explorer 4+ or
> Netscape 6+.
>
> The Photo Binbook is a work in progress, and we plan to include not
> only *many* more postings, but also extra functionality allowing
> wiewers to suggest the inclusion of new discussion threads or new
> remarks on an existing thread. Also the organization of folders may
> change as we add more topics.
>
> Please let us know what you think of the Photo Binbook. If you have
> suggestions for improving it, that would be great!
>
> Thanks,
>
> ________________________________________
> Gregory Popovitch - gregory@...
> editor of the Photo Binbook
> http://www.binbooks.com/photo
> ________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

It's a wonderful way to drum up business no?... easier to apologize after
the fact than to ask permission before hand.  More sneak and sly, will it
never end.

C

> 
> how have you got hold of these messages? shouldn't you have asked for
> clearance first?
> 
> Julian

> 
>> Hi everybody,
>> 
>> I am pleased to announce that a new web site containing a wealth of
>> information about photography (including quite a few conversation
>> threads from this great forum) is available. The URL is:
>>

well .. it looks like these are emails swappde in email lists ... and USENET
message groups -- which are grey areas as far as who can archive them  ..
and wether they are public/private communicatiuons ..

.. i'd go out on a limb and say that his work is no different than a mailing
list archive (like the one yahoo has) ..

.. did you know that google has an archive of USENET .. (very large one too)
.. so i'd say that that USENET or mailing list communication is a public
conversation..

... from a cursory look , it seems like he's done a lot of work to classifiy
them .. what a good resource.

-- ricardo



----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Frayn" <carolynfrayn@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


> It's a wonderful way to drum up business no?... easier to apologize after
> the fact than to ask permission before hand.  More sneak and sly, will it
> never end.
>
> C
>
>
> >
> > how have you got hold of these messages? shouldn't you have asked for
> > clearance first?
> >
> > Julian
>
> >
> >> Hi everybody,
> >>
> >> I am pleased to announce that a new web site containing a wealth of
> >> information about photography (including quite a few conversation
> >> threads from this great forum) is available. The URL is:
> >>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

well as has been admitted, copyright is with the author and has therefore
been broken, UNLESS this is a yahoo-sponsored venture which is why I asked
before taking any further action - I could do with a new printer! Talk about
stealing a knowledge base...

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Frayn" <carolynfrayn@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


> It's a wonderful way to drum up business no?... easier to apologize after
> the fact than to ask permission before hand.  More sneak and sly, will it
> never end.
>
> C
>
>
> >
> > how have you got hold of these messages? shouldn't you have asked for
> > clearance first?
> >
> > Julian
>
> >
> >> Hi everybody,
> >>
> >> I am pleased to announce that a new web site containing a wealth of
> >> information about photography (including quite a few conversation
> >> threads from this great forum) is available. The URL is:
> >>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

A good resource true. When you sign up for a listserv you acknowledge that
the copyright may be shared with the list host, but not with a third party.
Don't forget that money is being made here... and everyone who has a post
there is basically contributing work for free.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


> well .. it looks like these are emails swappde in email lists ... and
USENET
> message groups -- which are grey areas as far as who can archive them  ..
> and wether they are public/private communicatiuons ..
>
> .. i'd go out on a limb and say that his work is no different than a
mailing
> list archive (like the one yahoo has) ..
>
> .. did you know that google has an archive of USENET .. (very large one
too)
> .. so i'd say that that USENET or mailing list communication is a public
> conversation..
>
> ... from a cursory look , it seems like he's done a lot of work to
classifiy
> them .. what a good resource.
>
> -- ricardo
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carolyn Frayn" <carolynfrayn@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 8:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
> Photography
>
>
> > It's a wonderful way to drum up business no?... easier to apologize
after
> > the fact than to ask permission before hand.  More sneak and sly, will
it
> > never end.
> >
> > C
> >
> >
> > >
> > > how have you got hold of these messages? shouldn't you have asked for
> > > clearance first?
> > >
> > > Julian
> >
> > >
> > >> Hi everybody,
> > >>
> > >> I am pleased to announce that a new web site containing a wealth of
> > >> information about photography (including quite a few conversation
> > >> threads from this great forum) is available. The URL is:
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> Please let us know what you think of the Photo Binbook. If you have
> suggestions for improving it, that would be great!

I suggest you remove any content you have stolen from this newsgroup. You
have done so without the express permission of the participants. The last
thing anyone needs is another source for spammers to harvest the group
member's email addresses. And I'm sure many members do not particularly care
for the implied association with your business.

On the other hand, if you're stealing the content from this newsgroup to
support your commercial enterprise, then perhaps you wouldn't object to
other entities stealing content from you.

> well as has been admitted, copyright is with the author and has therefore
> been broken, UNLESS this is a yahoo-sponsored venture which is why I asked
> before taking any further action - I could do with a new printer!

Think bigger Julian. <g>

> Talk about
> stealing a knowledge base...

Yes, I agree.  And email addresses too.

C

>>easier to apologize after
>> the fact than to ask permission before hand.  More sneak and sly, will it
>> never end.

In a message dated 5/15/02 11:20:31 AM, julianthomas@... writes:

>well as has been admitted, copyright is with the author and has therefore
>been broken, UNLESS this is a yahoo-sponsored venture which is why I asked
>before taking any further action - I could do with a new printer! Talk
>about
>stealing a knowledge base...

Its a new concept: opt-out copyright infringement!

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

> Think bigger Julian. <g>
>

I thought 44inches was big enough..? (sorry, couldn't resist it)

Julian

If you had Imageprint you could get a 1000 inches, Julian...ha ha...

Robert

On 5/15/02 9:19 AM, "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...> wrote:

>> Think bigger Julian. <g>
>> 
> 
> I thought 44inches was big enough..? (sorry, couldn't resist it)
> 
> Julian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

> I thought 44inches was big enough..? (sorry, couldn't resist it)
only the first 8inches count, the rest is open to interpolation... er,
interpretation...
C

Hello Everyone,

It is definitely not my intent to steal anything, and I do 
apologize if I offended anyone. My understanding of the copyright
issues is that each email author owns an implicit copyright of 
his messages, so I will indeed remove the messages of anyone who 
asks.

As for not asking the permission first, I will say this:

 - I thought (maybe naively) that these messages being posted 
   in a forum with unrestricted membership and public archives, 
   meant that the authors were intentionally sharing their 
   knowledge with everyone.

 - I would be difficult to ask permission to each individual 
   author. The old Dejanews and then Google groups are archiving 
   messages from usenet and mailing list without explicit authors 
   permissions, but allowing them to remove messages, so I thought 
   that it was an accepted practice.

 - in the future I will indeed try asking in mailing list whether 
   any member wants to opt-out before I include their posts.

I sincerely am trying to bring out something new and interesting
with the Photo Binbook, and I would be sorry to see many of the 
great contributors of this forum opt out. Yes we as a company 
hope to make money eventually out of it, just like Google tries 
to make money out of gathering links and usenet postings. 

In any case, I will respect the wishes of those who don't want to 
appear in the Photo Binbook.

Best regards,

Gregory

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> A good resource true. When you sign up for a listserv you 
acknowledge that
> the copyright may be shared with the list host, but not with a 
third party.
> Don't forget that money is being made here... and everyone who has 
a post

> there is basically contributing work for free.
> 
> Julian

I'm sorry Greg, but you have still got this totally wrong. Yahoo owns the
messages because it is stored on their server - you don't have the right to
take anything. If Yahoo wanted to do anything with those messages that
infringed the Intellectual Copyright of the owner, it would have problems.
And certainly stealing it and then saying I'll give it back if you want, is
crazy. You are in direct infringement of Yahoo privacy and copyright
statements. My website is hosted by Yahoo, would you take my photographs
without permission? I strongly suggest you take legal advice before
continuing with this.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "greg_pop" <greg@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


> Hello Everyone,
>
> It is definitely not my intent to steal anything, and I do
> apologize if I offended anyone. My understanding of the copyright
> issues is that each email author owns an implicit copyright of
> his messages, so I will indeed remove the messages of anyone who
> asks.
>
> As for not asking the permission first, I will say this:
>
>  - I thought (maybe naively) that these messages being posted
>    in a forum with unrestricted membership and public archives,
>    meant that the authors were intentionally sharing their
>    knowledge with everyone.
>
>  - I would be difficult to ask permission to each individual
>    author. The old Dejanews and then Google groups are archiving
>    messages from usenet and mailing list without explicit authors
>    permissions, but allowing them to remove messages, so I thought
>    that it was an accepted practice.
>
>  - in the future I will indeed try asking in mailing list whether
>    any member wants to opt-out before I include their posts.
>
> I sincerely am trying to bring out something new and interesting
> with the Photo Binbook, and I would be sorry to see many of the
> great contributors of this forum opt out. Yes we as a company
> hope to make money eventually out of it, just like Google tries
> to make money out of gathering links and usenet postings.
>
> In any case, I will respect the wishes of those who don't want to
> appear in the Photo Binbook.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gregory
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > A good resource true. When you sign up for a listserv you
> acknowledge that
> > the copyright may be shared with the list host, but not with a
> third party.
> > Don't forget that money is being made here... and everyone who has
> a post
> > there is basically contributing work for free.
> >
> > Julian
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I find the reaction from some in this group kind of surprising ..

I've looked through the photo bin book -- and cannot see  how they are
making money from me -- (i'm not buying anything from them) .. and i can
search their archive site with out paying -- .. so i see no problem with my
posts being included in their archive --

to me its not very different than the yahoo archive -- in fact its better
than the yaho archive because of its different levels of cross-reference..

.. i shared my posts with this group woithout the hopes of making money off
of-them .. so i see no problem with someone taking those posts and making an
archive out of them -- even if that archive is tied to a money making
venture ..

.. the only thing i would object to, would be if i had to pay to search the
archive -- in that case i'd expect to get paid for my contribution .. (since
they would be making money directly off my information.

.. the power of the internet is tied to the free flow of information .. so
keep the info free ..and share your info with others ..

-- ricardo

Ricardo, this isn't a charity. You don't pay but revenue will be raised -
Greg mentioned the google model to me.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


> I find the reaction from some in this group kind of surprising ..
>
> I've looked through the photo bin book -- and cannot see  how they are
> making money from me -- (i'm not buying anything from them) .. and i can
> search their archive site with out paying -- .. so i see no problem with
my
> posts being included in their archive --
>
> to me its not very different than the yahoo archive -- in fact its better
> than the yaho archive because of its different levels of cross-reference..
>
> .. i shared my posts with this group woithout the hopes of making money
off
> of-them .. so i see no problem with someone taking those posts and making
an
> archive out of them -- even if that archive is tied to a money making
> venture ..
>
> .. the only thing i would object to, would be if i had to pay to search
the
> archive -- in that case i'd expect to get paid for my contribution ..
(since
> they would be making money directly off my information.
>
> .. the power of the internet is tied to the free flow of information .. so
> keep the info free ..and share your info with others ..
>
> -- ricardo
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Are the archives that are used by Photo Binbook open to the public? If 
so what is this but a database of references organized on various topics 
that interfaces to the archives and pulls the messages? Would it be 
different if a URL was supplied and a party was sent directly to the 
archive to see the article instead of pulling the post up directly in 
the Binbook web site?

Seems to be the value added is the cross reference to the original post 
in a public archive. What is the difference between this and the common 
practice of someone being paid to perform a literature search of open 
source literature (books, journals and the web) on a specific subject?

Truman


Julian Thomas wrote:

> Ricardo, this isn't a charity. You don't pay but revenue will be raised -
> Greg mentioned the google model to me.
>
> Julian

> 
> to me its not very different than the yahoo archive -- in fact its better
> than the yaho archive because of its different levels of cross-reference..

Different in that I know my posts are in the yahoo archive, I posted them
thru yahoo and expect them there.  It is my understanding that when lists
are archived to sites such as "www.mail-archive.com" they are done so by the
list owners, certainly not just taken by the archive site.

> .. i shared my posts with this group woithout the hopes of making money off
> of-them .. 

I'm sure many do the same, but there are also many who post for profit, post
for hope of profit, or are here to learn in order to make a better profit.
No problem with any of that in my mind for the most part, but what this
person has done is not right in my opinion.

>so i see no problem with someone taking those posts and making an
> archive out of them -- even if that archive is tied to a money making
> venture ..

Well I do.  

> .. the power of the internet is tied to the free flow of information .. so
> keep the info free ..and share your info with others ..

The internet as it stands now profits in many interesting ways from your
free information.

Carolyn

I am still very surprised by the level of response to the binbook -- some of
the posts are just shy of threatening legal action ..

.. i think that the posts that we've all made to this forum are hardly a
money making venture -- BW digital photography is in such a state of
infancy -- that sharing information will create a market where money can be
made -- but not sharing that information will not further the market ..

these posts are freely available -- and wether i can see them on
www.yahoo.com .. or www.photobinbook.com .. makes a small difference -- that
a court would have to decide over -- not users in the BW forum..

.. i think that as long as greg provides a way for users to remove their
posts from the archive .. he's done his part ..

.. i wonder if we can move this thread to off-line discussion -- since the
rest of the group does not need another storm of OFF-TOPIC posts.

-- ricardo

I'm not disputing the value as it is a well designed site... just the
legality. If you check the Yahoo statements on Privacy, Intellectual
copyright, etc you can see that this is illegal. Yahoo makes a commitment
that your intellectual copyright and privacy will not be violated and lists
numerous examples.
As to your question (and I've done, and still do,  research for people) If
you use a printed extract from any source you have to get permission and pay
a fee. This has not happened.

Julian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


> Are the archives that are used by Photo Binbook open to the public? If
> so what is this but a database of references organized on various topics
> that interfaces to the archives and pulls the messages? Would it be
> different if a URL was supplied and a party was sent directly to the
> archive to see the article instead of pulling the post up directly in
> the Binbook web site?
>
> Seems to be the value added is the cross reference to the original post
> in a public archive. What is the difference between this and the common
> practice of someone being paid to perform a literature search of open
> source literature (books, journals and the web) on a specific subject?
>
> Truman
>
>
> Julian Thomas wrote:
>
> > Ricardo, this isn't a charity. You don't pay but revenue will be
raised -
> > Greg mentioned the google model to me.
> >
> > Julian
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I'd argue that yahoo doesn't own the posts either .. their privacy statement
and policy have not been challenged in court and therefore.. their legality
is unknown ..

.. if the posts were not taken directly from yahoo servers .. then the data
might be used in any way .. such as if i had saved every post i received
through email  and then made an archive of them -- without having had used
the yahoo archive to retrieve the data ..



-- ricardo

this is not off topic as whatever is posted to this group may be used,
without permission, by a commercial venture. what you think doesn't matter,
just check the statements made by Yahoo about what people are allowed to do
with posts to Yahoo listservs. They are very specific. They specifically
exclude the appearance of posts made to a yahoo list on another site. They
even have a standard form to fill in to notify them of copyright violation.
I've filled it in.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


> I am still very surprised by the level of response to the binbook -- some
of
> the posts are just shy of threatening legal action ..
>
> .. i think that the posts that we've all made to this forum are hardly a
> money making venture -- BW digital photography is in such a state of
> infancy -- that sharing information will create a market where money can
be
> made -- but not sharing that information will not further the market ..
>
> these posts are freely available -- and wether i can see them on
> www.yahoo.com .. or www.photobinbook.com .. makes a small difference --
that
> a court would have to decide over -- not users in the BW forum..
>
> .. i think that as long as greg provides a way for users to remove their
> posts from the archive .. he's done his part ..
>
> .. i wonder if we can move this thread to off-line discussion -- since the
> rest of the group does not need another storm of OFF-TOPIC posts.
>
> -- ricardo
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> 
> .. i wonder if we can move this thread to off-line discussion -- since the
> rest of the group does not need another storm of OFF-TOPIC posts.

I'm certain the rest of the group can speak for themselves.  I just love it
when someone decides to dictate what is off topic.

Reminds me of the phrase "matter closed"...

Carolyn

> this is not off topic as whatever is posted to this group may be used,
> without permission, by a commercial venture. what you think doesn't
matter,
> just check the statements made by Yahoo about what people are allowed to
do
> with posts to Yahoo listservs. They are very specific. They specifically
> exclude the appearance of posts made to a yahoo list on another site. They
> even have a standard form to fill in to notify them of copyright
violation.
> I've filled it in.

Can you post the link? I'd also like to fill it in, and I'd encourage
everyone else on the list to do so as well. Maybe then Greg will understand
the true nature of what he's trying to do.

> I'd argue that yahoo doesn't own the posts either .. their privacy
statement
> and policy have not been challenged in court and therefore.. their
legality
> is unknown ..

Does Greg have the financial resources to withstand a legal challenge from
Yahoo? That would knock a big hole in his profit expectations, wouldn't it.

.. alright --  i hope that we can end this thread .. and wait to see what
yahoo does .. wether they contact greg .. or what not ..

.. also encouraging everyone to stand against greg is not a very nice thing
to do ..

.. i think that those who think his work is worthy and useful should send
him a *private* mail letting him know ..

.. btw -- this will be my last posting on this subject

-- ricardo

Hi Julian,

I believe you are mistaken about Yahoo's privacy statement. They 
don't want people posting copyrighted materials into their own 
servers. This is not what I did. 

In this case, I subscribed to the mailing list and received emails
sent by whoever posted them. Yahoo acted as a post office to 
distribute the mail. I don't believe that it gives them any 
ownership on the material they transported.

As for the copyrights of the authors of messages, I do acknowledge 
them and that is why I will remove messages of those who request it.

Brad Templeton, the chairman of the EFF (Electronic Frontier 
Foundation, the leading foundation protecting liberties and privacy
in cyberspace) has a web page at: 

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

which explains in layman's terms copyright law applied to the 
internet. In particular, it says:

" 10) "They e-mailed me a copy, so I can post it." 
To have a copy is not to have the copyright. All the E-mail you write
is copyrighted. However, E-mail is not, unless previously agreed,
secret. So you can certainly report on what E-mail you are sent, and
reveal what it says. You can even quote parts of it to demonstrate. 
Frankly, somebody who sues over an ordinary message would almost 
surely get no damages, because the message has no commercial value,
but if you want to stay strictly in the law, you should ask first. On
the other hand, don't go nuts if somebody posts E-mail you sent them.
If it was an ordinary non-secret personal letter of minimal 
commercial value with no copyright notice (like 99.9% of all E-mail),
you probably won't get any damages if you sue them. Note as well 
that, the law aside, keeping private correspondence private is a 
courtesy one should usually honour. "

Because in this case the correspondance was not secret (indeed it 
is archived in a public, open to all, web site), I don't think I 
committed a serious offense. If I did, then Google groups and a 
multitude of other sites are guilty as well.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> this is not off topic as whatever is posted to this group may be 
used,
> without permission, by a commercial venture. what you think doesn't 
matter,
> just check the statements made by Yahoo about what people are 
allowed to do
> with posts to Yahoo listservs. They are very specific. They 
specifically
> exclude the appearance of posts made to a yahoo list on another 
site. They
> even have a standard form to fill in to notify them of copyright 
violation.
> I've filled it in.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@s...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
> Photography
> 
> 
> > I am still very surprised by the level of response to the 
binbook -- some
> of
> > the posts are just shy of threatening legal action ..
> >
> > .. i think that the posts that we've all made to this forum are 
hardly a
> > money making venture -- BW digital photography is in such a state 
of
> > infancy -- that sharing information will create a market where 
money can
> be
> > made -- but not sharing that information will not further the 
market ..
> >
> > these posts are freely available -- and wether i can see them on
> > www.yahoo.com .. or www.photobinbook.com .. makes a small 
difference --
> that
> > a court would have to decide over -- not users in the BW forum..
> >
> > .. i think that as long as greg provides a way for users to 
remove their
> > posts from the archive .. he's done his part ..
> >
> > .. i wonder if we can move this thread to off-line discussion -- 
since the
> > rest of the group does not need another storm of OFF-TOPIC posts.
> >
> > -- ricardo
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

copyright@... <copyright@...> Just email the details
there.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moreno Polloni" <mp@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


> > this is not off topic as whatever is posted to this group may be used,
> > without permission, by a commercial venture. what you think doesn't
> matter,
> > just check the statements made by Yahoo about what people are allowed to
> do
> > with posts to Yahoo listservs. They are very specific. They specifically
> > exclude the appearance of posts made to a yahoo list on another site.
They
> > even have a standard form to fill in to notify them of copyright
> violation.
> > I've filled it in.
>
> Can you post the link? I'd also like to fill it in, and I'd encourage
> everyone else on the list to do so as well. Maybe then Greg will
understand
> the true nature of what he's trying to do.
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Well, having taken advice i think you are wrong. You agree to certain terms
and conditions when you sign up to Yahoo - you are breaking them. I find
this morally repugnant. Yet another shark who wants to make money off other
people's work. I'm unsubbing until this is sorted.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "greg_pop" <greg@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


> Hi Julian,
>
> I believe you are mistaken about Yahoo's privacy statement. They
> don't want people posting copyrighted materials into their own
> servers. This is not what I did.
>
> In this case, I subscribed to the mailing list and received emails
> sent by whoever posted them. Yahoo acted as a post office to
> distribute the mail. I don't believe that it gives them any
> ownership on the material they transported.
>
> As for the copyrights of the authors of messages, I do acknowledge
> them and that is why I will remove messages of those who request it.
>
> Brad Templeton, the chairman of the EFF (Electronic Frontier
> Foundation, the leading foundation protecting liberties and privacy
> in cyberspace) has a web page at:
>
> http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
>
> which explains in layman's terms copyright law applied to the
> internet. In particular, it says:
>
> " 10) "They e-mailed me a copy, so I can post it."
> To have a copy is not to have the copyright. All the E-mail you write
> is copyrighted. However, E-mail is not, unless previously agreed,
> secret. So you can certainly report on what E-mail you are sent, and
> reveal what it says. You can even quote parts of it to demonstrate.
> Frankly, somebody who sues over an ordinary message would almost
> surely get no damages, because the message has no commercial value,
> but if you want to stay strictly in the law, you should ask first. On
> the other hand, don't go nuts if somebody posts E-mail you sent them.
> If it was an ordinary non-secret personal letter of minimal
> commercial value with no copyright notice (like 99.9% of all E-mail),
> you probably won't get any damages if you sue them. Note as well
> that, the law aside, keeping private correspondence private is a
> courtesy one should usually honour. "
>
> Because in this case the correspondance was not secret (indeed it
> is archived in a public, open to all, web site), I don't think I
> committed a serious offense. If I did, then Google groups and a
> multitude of other sites are guilty as well.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > this is not off topic as whatever is posted to this group may be
> used,
> > without permission, by a commercial venture. what you think doesn't
> matter,
> > just check the statements made by Yahoo about what people are
> allowed to do
> > with posts to Yahoo listservs. They are very specific. They
> specifically
> > exclude the appearance of posts made to a yahoo list on another
> site. They
> > even have a standard form to fill in to notify them of copyright
> violation.
> > I've filled it in.
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@s...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
> > Photography
> >
> >
> > > I am still very surprised by the level of response to the
> binbook -- some
> > of
> > > the posts are just shy of threatening legal action ..
> > >
> > > .. i think that the posts that we've all made to this forum are
> hardly a
> > > money making venture -- BW digital photography is in such a state
> of
> > > infancy -- that sharing information will create a market where
> money can
> > be
> > > made -- but not sharing that information will not further the
> market ..
> > >
> > > these posts are freely available -- and wether i can see them on
> > > www.yahoo.com .. or www.photobinbook.com .. makes a small
> difference --
> > that
> > > a court would have to decide over -- not users in the BW forum..
> > >
> > > .. i think that as long as greg provides a way for users to
> remove their
> > > posts from the archive .. he's done his part ..
> > >
> > > .. i wonder if we can move this thread to off-line discussion --
> since the
> > > rest of the group does not need another storm of OFF-TOPIC posts.
> > >
> > > -- ricardo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Greg,

Regardless of the copyright issues, the binbook or whatever it is 
called seems to me pretty lame as far as content goes.

My 2 cents worth,

Don Bryant

Greg,

I'm sure you'd have got us all willingly if you'd have offered a list-host
solution with email and on-line connect options, but without the intrusive
adverts.

Disregarding any fine lines of legality that may or may not be present, I
feel you have crossed a moral line, and I am therefore asking you to remove
posts made by me from your site, and indeed any of my comments that people
may have quoted in their emails.

Thank you,

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: greg_pop [mailto:greg@...]
> Sent: 15 May 2002 20:47
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
> Photography
>
>
> Hi Julian,
>
> I believe you are mistaken about Yahoo's privacy statement. They
> don't want people posting copyrighted materials into their own
> servers. This is not what I did.
>
> In this case, I subscribed to the mailing list and received emails
> sent by whoever posted them. Yahoo acted as a post office to
> distribute the mail. I don't believe that it gives them any
> ownership on the material they transported.
>
> As for the copyrights of the authors of messages, I do acknowledge
> them and that is why I will remove messages of those who request it.
>
> Brad Templeton, the chairman of the EFF (Electronic Frontier
> Foundation, the leading foundation protecting liberties and privacy
> in cyberspace) has a web page at:
>
> http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
>
> which explains in layman's terms copyright law applied to the
> internet. In particular, it says:
>
> " 10) "They e-mailed me a copy, so I can post it."
> To have a copy is not to have the copyright. All the E-mail you write
> is copyrighted. However, E-mail is not, unless previously agreed,
> secret. So you can certainly report on what E-mail you are sent, and
> reveal what it says. You can even quote parts of it to demonstrate.
> Frankly, somebody who sues over an ordinary message would almost
> surely get no damages, because the message has no commercial value,
> but if you want to stay strictly in the law, you should ask first. On
> the other hand, don't go nuts if somebody posts E-mail you sent them.
> If it was an ordinary non-secret personal letter of minimal
> commercial value with no copyright notice (like 99.9% of all E-mail),
> you probably won't get any damages if you sue them. Note as well
> that, the law aside, keeping private correspondence private is a
> courtesy one should usually honour. "
>
> Because in this case the correspondance was not secret (indeed it
> is archived in a public, open to all, web site), I don't think I
> committed a serious offense. If I did, then Google groups and a
> multitude of other sites are guilty as well.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > this is not off topic as whatever is posted to this group may be
> used,
> > without permission, by a commercial venture. what you think doesn't
> matter,
> > just check the statements made by Yahoo about what people are
> allowed to do
> > with posts to Yahoo listservs. They are very specific. They
> specifically
> > exclude the appearance of posts made to a yahoo list on another
> site. They
> > even have a standard form to fill in to notify them of copyright
> violation.
> > I've filled it in.
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@s...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
> > Photography
> >
> >
> > > I am still very surprised by the level of response to the
> binbook -- some
> > of
> > > the posts are just shy of threatening legal action ..
> > >
> > > .. i think that the posts that we've all made to this forum are
> hardly a
> > > money making venture -- BW digital photography is in such a state
> of
> > > infancy -- that sharing information will create a market where
> money can
> > be
> > > made -- but not sharing that information will not further the
> market ..
> > >
> > > these posts are freely available -- and wether i can see them on
> > > www.yahoo.com .. or www.photobinbook.com .. makes a small
> difference --
> > that
> > > a court would have to decide over -- not users in the BW forum..
> > >
> > > .. i think that as long as greg provides a way for users to
> remove their
> > > posts from the archive .. he's done his part ..
> > >
> > > .. i wonder if we can move this thread to off-line discussion --
> since the
> > > rest of the group does not need another storm of OFF-TOPIC posts.
> > >
> > > -- ricardo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hello all,

After days of research it seems the 1160 is a decent A3+ printer to
start with for digital b&w printing at a reasonable start-up cost.
Someone on this list contacted me a couple days ago to offer me one
for sale but I have not heard back from him after my reply.

Does anyone have one they would like to sell, or know where one may be
found?  (other than eBay, got that covered)

Thanks!

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richreg@...

Yahoo's privacy statement is not really the issue, here. As I understand
copyright law in relation to correspondence (and I have investigated this in
relation to two books I have worked on), if I send you a letter, you own the
physical letter, but I still own the words. You can sell the letter, but you
cannot publish it without getting my permission to do so. This has been
tested in numerous cases, one of the most recent prominent ones being a
biography of J. D. Salinger, who successfully prevented letters he had
written to the author many years before from being published; instead, the
author had to paraphrase them.

By analogy, Yahoo! owns the magnetic or optical medium on which this content
exists and the particular encoding of that information on that media. We
give them permission to publish our posts when we join the list. You own the
disks on which your particular copy of any e-mail you received resides and
you own the particular encoding of that e-mail on those disks. But you do
not have the right to publish that information without the permission of the
authors of that material because we did not, individually, give you
permission to republish our words. Simply offering, after the fact, to
remove the content from your site of any authors who object to its inclusion
does not make you any less liable. Your may argue (and seem to be arguing)
that the material is "public," and so you can publish it without permission
of the copyright holders, but that is not the case, either. The New York
Times, for example, is also public, but republication of any of their
articles would also put you in peril of a lawsuit.

Strictly speaking (and I can't see any reason not to speak strictly in
matters of copyright violation), you should remove all material from anyone
on this list from your site and then seek written permission from any
members who do wish to have their posts included.


- David

-----Original Message-----
From: greg_pop [mailto:greg@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 3:47 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
Photography


Hi Julian,

I believe you are mistaken about Yahoo's privacy statement. They
don't want people posting copyrighted materials into their own
servers. This is not what I did.

In this case, I subscribed to the mailing list and received emails
sent by whoever posted them. Yahoo acted as a post office to
distribute the mail. I don't believe that it gives them any
ownership on the material they transported.

As for the copyrights of the authors of messages, I do acknowledge
them and that is why I will remove messages of those who request it.

Brad Templeton, the chairman of the EFF (Electronic Frontier
Foundation, the leading foundation protecting liberties and privacy
in cyberspace) has a web page at:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

which explains in layman's terms copyright law applied to the
internet. In particular, it says:

" 10) "They e-mailed me a copy, so I can post it."
To have a copy is not to have the copyright. All the E-mail you write
is copyrighted. However, E-mail is not, unless previously agreed,
secret. So you can certainly report on what E-mail you are sent, and
reveal what it says. You can even quote parts of it to demonstrate.
Frankly, somebody who sues over an ordinary message would almost
surely get no damages, because the message has no commercial value,
but if you want to stay strictly in the law, you should ask first. On
the other hand, don't go nuts if somebody posts E-mail you sent them.
If it was an ordinary non-secret personal letter of minimal
commercial value with no copyright notice (like 99.9% of all E-mail),
you probably won't get any damages if you sue them. Note as well
that, the law aside, keeping private correspondence private is a
courtesy one should usually honour. "

Because in this case the correspondance was not secret (indeed it
is archived in a public, open to all, web site), I don't think I
committed a serious offense. If I did, then Google groups and a
multitude of other sites are guilty as well.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> this is not off topic as whatever is posted to this group may be
used,
> without permission, by a commercial venture. what you think doesn't
matter,
> just check the statements made by Yahoo about what people are
allowed to do
> with posts to Yahoo listservs. They are very specific. They
specifically
> exclude the appearance of posts made to a yahoo list on another
site. They
> even have a standard form to fill in to notify them of copyright
violation.
> I've filled it in.
>
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@s...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
> Photography
>
>
> > I am still very surprised by the level of response to the
binbook -- some
> of
> > the posts are just shy of threatening legal action ..
> >
> > .. i think that the posts that we've all made to this forum are
hardly a
> > money making venture -- BW digital photography is in such a state
of
> > infancy -- that sharing information will create a market where
money can
> be
> > made -- but not sharing that information will not further the
market ..
> >
> > these posts are freely available -- and wether i can see them on
> > www.yahoo.com .. or www.photobinbook.com .. makes a small
difference --
> that
> > a court would have to decide over -- not users in the BW forum..
> >
> > .. i think that as long as greg provides a way for users to
remove their
> > posts from the archive .. he's done his part ..
> >
> > .. i wonder if we can move this thread to off-line discussion --
since the
> > rest of the group does not need another storm of OFF-TOPIC posts.
> >
> > -- ricardo
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

But Google is LICENSED to host the USENET  archives... LEGALLY.

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ricardo Lagos" 
<ricardo@s...> wrote:
> well .. it looks like these are emails swappde in email lists ... 
and USENET
> message groups -- which are grey areas as far as who can archive 
them  ..
> and wether they are public/private communicatiuons ..
> 
> .. i'd go out on a limb and say that his work is no different than 
a mailing
> list archive (like the one yahoo has) ..
> 
> .. did you know that google has an archive of USENET .. (very large 
one too)
> .. so i'd say that that USENET or mailing list communication is a 
public
> conversation..
> 
> ... from a cursory look , it seems like he's done a lot of work to 
classifiy
> them .. what a good resource.
> 
> -- ricardo
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carolyn Frayn" <carolynfrayn@s...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 8:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Photo Binbook - a new resource about
> Photography
> 
> 
> > It's a wonderful way to drum up business no?... easier to 
apologize after
> > the fact than to ask permission before hand.  More sneak and sly, 
will it
> > never end.
> >
> > C
> >
> >
> > >
> > > how have you got hold of these messages? shouldn't you have 
asked for
> > > clearance first?
> > >
> > > Julian
> >
> > >
> > >> Hi everybody,
> > >>
> > >> I am pleased to announce that a new web site containing a 
wealth of
> > >> information about photography (including quite a few 
conversation
> > >> threads from this great forum) is available. The URL is:
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

Sorry, Greg, that doesn¹t cut it, and offering to remove it after the fact
doesn¹t cut it, either.  The damage has already been done.

1. Remove all my posts, and any post in which my original post is
substantially quoted. (ie, follow fair-use rules!)
2. Get a good business plan, with a good business lawyer, that is based on
more than stealing someone else¹s efforts.
3. If you are going to steal from people, don¹t tell the people you are
stealing from that you are doing it (I know, it¹s kind of hard, when the
people you are stealing from are the same ones you are trying to sell to
(see point 2!))!

Sorry to be harsh, but your level of naiveté and audacity warrant it, IMO.

Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA 02139

on 5/15/02 6:13 PM, Gregory Popovitch wrote:



on 5/15/02 6:10 PM, greg_pop wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
> 
> It is definitely not my intent to steal anything, and I do
> apologize if I offended anyone. My understanding of the copyright
> issues is that each email author owns an implicit copyright of
> his messages, so I will indeed remove the messages of anyone who
> asks.
> 
> As for not asking the permission first, I will say this:
> 
> - I thought (maybe naively) that these messages being posted
>    in a forum with unrestricted membership and public archives,
>    meant that the authors were intentionally sharing their
>    knowledge with everyone.
> 
> - I would be difficult to ask permission to each individual
>    author. The old Dejanews and then Google groups are archiving
>    messages from usenet and mailing list without explicit authors
>    permissions, but allowing them to remove messages, so I thought
>    that it was an accepted practice.
> 
> - in the future I will indeed try asking in mailing list whether
>    any member wants to opt-out before I include their posts.
> 
> I sincerely am trying to bring out something new and interesting
> with the Photo Binbook, and I would be sorry to see many of the
> great contributors of this forum opt out. Yes we as a company
> hope to make money eventually out of it, just like Google tries
> to make money out of gathering links and usenet postings.
> 
> In any case, I will respect the wishes of those who don't want to
> appear in the Photo Binbook.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Gregory
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
>> > A good resource true. When you sign up for a listserv you
> acknowledge that
>> > the copyright may be shared with the list host, but not with a
> third party.
>> > Don't forget that money is being made here... and everyone who has
> a post
>> > there is basically contributing work for free.
>> > 
>> > Julian
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greg wrote:
" - in the future I will indeed try asking in mailing list whether
   any member wants to opt-out before I include their posts."

As Emerson put it, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."
It appears that you still do not get it, and that even in your attempts to
incorporate the feedback from this group into your future policies you
continue to justify what you have done, and to propose what will continue to
be violations of copyright of members of this or other forums.

The appropriate action would NOT be to ask a list if anyone on it wants to
opt OUT before appropriating their information, but to ask the list members
if anyone wants to opt IN. Anyone who responds that he or she wants to opt
in gets included. Everyone else gets excluded. As you run across new list
members whose posts you want to include, you e-mail them your request. If
they say, "Sure, I'm in," then great. If they ignore your message, or
decline to be included, then you don't take their information.

Unless you ask explicit permission of each person whose information you want
to use, you are stealing that information. And in the process you are
generating an incredible amount of ill will, which is hardly a sound
business practice.

- David