Digital BW, The Print

Hello group,

The following is from an extremely amatuer photographer without profiling
ability (yet) so please bare with the non-technical writing.
............

This workflow was written up for someone requesting info on how to print BW
with Epson Dye Inks on Epson Paper.  Obviously not the paper of choice for
most but for anyone interested I find this works pretty well for printing BW
from my Epsons 1200 with Epson color dye inks. I get lovely deep blacks and
richness... but of course I also get dots.


Scanning:  (Nikon LS2000 - Nikon 2.5 software - firmware updated)

I always scan in RGB.  I scan at 2700 dpi : 12 bit : 16 times multi scan

I do not use heavy curves with the scanner software as I prefer to do most
adjustments in Photoshop.  I will set the highlight and shadow points where
they achieve the greatest range without losing detail or I'll just aquire a
raw scan.

Sometimes if the highlight details are missing on the preview I'll apply a
-.1 or less analog gain in master.

If the negative is difficult and I cannot achieve an acceptable tonal range
I will scan two or three times with different curves settings, one optimized
highlights, one for shadows and sometimes one for midtones. Then I combine
the files as layers in photoshop and apply layer masks to each scan allowing
the best parts of each to show through.


Photoshop:

Save file as master.

Under view>proof setup>custom set your printer/paper/ink profile to what you
will be using. In this case I'll use the Epson 1200 Photo Paper profile.

If my file is high bit (12 from scanner - 16 in photoshop) I will do a curve
adjustment before converting to 8 bit. With the curve dialogue open, in RGB
channel I use the  eye droppers to set my highlights and shadow points.
Double click on each eyedropper in turn and set the values for maximum black
and minimum white (the default values for these eye droppers are set for
offset press CMYK output, you can set the K value to 100%). Then adjust
gamma with a slight curve to suit the midtones.

Convert to 8 bit.

If the file was scanned in 8 bit I will apply a curve adjustment layer,
using the above technique but the adjustment layer allows for further
editing later on.

I'll either use a channel mixer adjustment layer (monochrome on) and play
with it until I get a pleasing BW image or I'll convert the file to LAB and
choose the Lightness channel.

If you want to try duo or tritones convert the file to grayscale, then
convert to duotone and select a preset curve (or click the curves beside
each ink and play with it till you love it), then convert back to RGB.  One
of my favorites is a tritone preset Brown 4... it is very subtle.

If there are blocked shadows or I just feel the contrast is to much and I
cannot fix it with gentle curve adjustments I'll use a contrast mask
layer... duplicate image layer, desaturate, invert, gausian blur a bit and
then apply over original image layer with an overlay or soft light blend set
from 10 - 30%.

I sometimes create an alpha channel to make masks for tonal adjustments by
copy/pasting the image layer to a new channel layer and then loading that
channel as a selection, click back to your layers window, choose a curve or
levels adjustment layer and then use the channel selection as a mask on a
levels or curves adjustment layer. Invert the selection and make a new mask
to choose between highlights and shadows.

Also helpful for stubborn negatives is to duplicate the image layer and set
blend mode to "screen" with a low opacity... again adding a mask to this
will help block out areas where you do not want it to apply.

When all is looking fine I will apply a little sharpening. I like to convert
to LAB and sharpen the lightness channel when I can...  Try sharpening
different RGB channels or masking the smooth areas like the sky and
sharpening the rest.  Try doing a little sharpening before using the channel
mixer. Each image warrants it's own unique approach.

Another method I like to use in RGB is to apply "unsharp mask", choose
"fade" under the edit menu but don't change the amount just change the blend
mode from normal to luminosity.

Save the layered file with a new name... I always save the original
scan/scans and then a layered file with all the adjustments. Then I flatten
the file and save it for printing.

Sample Print:

Go to "image size", uncheck "resample", set your resolution at 240 or 360.
Now check "resample" and set the size you want your image to print if it
differs from what is created by setting your resolution.

In the printer driver I set Source Space to "Document": Print Space -
Document "Epson 1200 Photo Paper", Intent "Perceptual".  Or you can just set
the source space to "Proof Setup" if your soft proof is on.
Advanced settings at : Photo Paper: 1400 dpi: Error Diffusion: No Color
Management: 

Print to Epson Photo Paper: let dry

*** Sometimes an image file will posterize when converted to an Epson
profile (the 1200 profiles are not the best.) In this case I will make all
adjustment layers in the original RGB Space (I use Adobe (1998) RGB) without
the soft proof. Then I print without color managment, setting the Source
Space to Document: Print Space to Same as Source and printing in Automatic.

Adjust the image using the sample as a guide... usually my samples have a
magenta cast. I put an adjustment to a curve layer by setting the 128 point
from between 125 and 120 in the red channel. Or if there is a green cast
fiddle with the green channel.

I prefer to achieve a neutral tone as the ambient room light changes the
prints tone itself during the day. I have found that I can get a very
neutral tone, no color casts in highlights or shadows... especially when
viewed under tungsten room light. I do notice that even these dye inks
suffer a small degree of metamerism but then again so do my walls!  Then
again it could be my aging eyes.

.....

I have recently been experimenting with conversion to CMYK after changing
the CMYK set up to Heavy ink/0% dot gain. Then I convert to the
printer/paper profile (RGB). I do not have a RIP so cannot send CMYK files
directly.  I can get a better black and less color is layed down this way.

I used to control CMYK conversion for my images that go to offset press but
they are always color.  Now that I have found a wonderful printer I let them
convert the files for their specific printers.

Is anyone using a RIP seeing an advantage to controlling the CMYK conversion
prior to sending RGB files for black and white inkjet printing? If this has
been covered in excess I appologize. When the Epson converts from my RGB
file it does a great job with color but would monochrome printing be better
served converting using Photoshop with a RIP?

I am looking forward to trying out quad-tone inks... which would you
recommend would be easiest to start out with?


Thanks, Carolyn Frayn
Alberta, Canada






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carolyn,

Thank you for the wonderfully detailed workflow! This is great not 
only for those who want to make B&W prints using Epson or other color 
ink sets but gives a nice workflow for taking any image from scan to 
print regardless of the ink set used. Good reading for all.

B&W from color is a topic that comes up frequently. I have posted 
Carolyn's workflow in the "Files" section under Image Processing.

Oh, by the way don't let Carolyn's claims of being an amateur fool 
you. She has been working with Photoshop for over five years and 
raises questions about CMYK separations and RIP's, which I personally 
consider stretching the definition of "amateur" beyond the legal 
limit. I don't think she is allowed to play in the novice class. Read 
her workflow and you will see what I mean.

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Hello group,
> 
> The following is from an extremely amatuer photographer without 
profiling
> ability (yet) so please bare with the non-technical writing.
> ............
> 
> This workflow was written up for someone requesting info on how to 
print BW
> with Epson Dye Inks on Epson Paper.  Obviously not the paper of 
choice for
> most but for anyone interested I find this works pretty well for 
printing BW
> from my Epsons 1200 with Epson color dye inks. I get lovely deep 
blacks and
> richness... but of course I also get dots.
> 
> 
> Scanning:  (Nikon LS2000 - Nikon 2.5 software - firmware updated)
> 
> I always scan in RGB.  I scan at 2700 dpi : 12 bit : 16 times multi 
scan
> 
> I do not use heavy curves with the scanner software as I prefer to 
do most
> adjustments in Photoshop.  I will set the highlight and shadow 
points where
> they achieve the greatest range without losing detail or I'll just 
aquire a
> raw scan.
> 
> Sometimes if the highlight details are missing on the preview I'll 
apply a
> -.1 or less analog gain in master.
> 
> If the negative is difficult and I cannot achieve an acceptable 
tonal range
> I will scan two or three times with different curves settings, one 
optimized
> highlights, one for shadows and sometimes one for midtones. Then I 
combine
> the files as layers in photoshop and apply layer masks to each scan 
allowing
> the best parts of each to show through.
> 
> 
> Photoshop:
> 
> Save file as master.
> 
> Under view>proof setup>custom set your printer/paper/ink profile to 
what you
> will be using. In this case I'll use the Epson 1200 Photo Paper 
profile.
> 
> If my file is high bit (12 from scanner - 16 in photoshop) I will 
do a curve
> adjustment before converting to 8 bit. With the curve dialogue 
open, in RGB
> channel I use the  eye droppers to set my highlights and shadow 
points.
> Double click on each eyedropper in turn and set the values for 
maximum black
> and minimum white (the default values for these eye droppers are 
set for
> offset press CMYK output, you can set the K value to 100%). Then 
adjust
> gamma with a slight curve to suit the midtones.
> 
> Convert to 8 bit.
> 
> If the file was scanned in 8 bit I will apply a curve adjustment 
layer,
> using the above technique but the adjustment layer allows for 
further
> editing later on.
> 
> I'll either use a channel mixer adjustment layer (monochrome on) 
and play
> with it until I get a pleasing BW image or I'll convert the file to 
LAB and
> choose the Lightness channel.
> 
> If you want to try duo or tritones convert the file to grayscale, 
then
> convert to duotone and select a preset curve (or click the curves 
beside
> each ink and play with it till you love it), then convert back to 
RGB.  One
> of my favorites is a tritone preset Brown 4... it is very subtle.
> 
> If there are blocked shadows or I just feel the contrast is to much 
and I
> cannot fix it with gentle curve adjustments I'll use a contrast mask
> layer... duplicate image layer, desaturate, invert, gausian blur a 
bit and
> then apply over original image layer with an overlay or soft light 
blend set
> from 10 - 30%.
> 
> I sometimes create an alpha channel to make masks for tonal 
adjustments by
> copy/pasting the image layer to a new channel layer and then 
loading that
> channel as a selection, click back to your layers window, choose a 
curve or
> levels adjustment layer and then use the channel selection as a 
mask on a
> levels or curves adjustment layer. Invert the selection and make a 
new mask
> to choose between highlights and shadows.
> 
> Also helpful for stubborn negatives is to duplicate the image layer 
and set
> blend mode to "screen" with a low opacity... again adding a mask to 
this
> will help block out areas where you do not want it to apply.
> 
> When all is looking fine I will apply a little sharpening. I like 
to convert
> to LAB and sharpen the lightness channel when I can...  Try 
sharpening
> different RGB channels or masking the smooth areas like the sky and
> sharpening the rest.  Try doing a little sharpening before using 
the channel
> mixer. Each image warrants it's own unique approach.
> 
> Another method I like to use in RGB is to apply "unsharp mask", 
choose
> "fade" under the edit menu but don't change the amount just change 
the blend
> mode from normal to luminosity.
> 
> Save the layered file with a new name... I always save the original
> scan/scans and then a layered file with all the adjustments. Then I 
flatten
> the file and save it for printing.
> 
> Sample Print:
> 
> Go to "image size", uncheck "resample", set your resolution at 240 
or 360.
> Now check "resample" and set the size you want your image to print 
if it
> differs from what is created by setting your resolution.
> 
> In the printer driver I set Source Space to "Document": Print 
Space -
> Document "Epson 1200 Photo Paper", Intent "Perceptual".  Or you can 
just set
> the source space to "Proof Setup" if your soft proof is on.
> Advanced settings at : Photo Paper: 1400 dpi: Error Diffusion: No 
Color
> Management: 
> 
> Print to Epson Photo Paper: let dry
> 
> *** Sometimes an image file will posterize when converted to an 
Epson
> profile (the 1200 profiles are not the best.) In this case I will 
make all
> adjustment layers in the original RGB Space (I use Adobe (1998) 
RGB) without
> the soft proof. Then I print without color managment, setting the 
Source
> Space to Document: Print Space to Same as Source and printing in 
Automatic.
> 
> Adjust the image using the sample as a guide... usually my samples 
have a
> magenta cast. I put an adjustment to a curve layer by setting the 
128 point
> from between 125 and 120 in the red channel. Or if there is a green 
cast
> fiddle with the green channel.
> 
> I prefer to achieve a neutral tone as the ambient room light 
changes the
> prints tone itself during the day. I have found that I can get a 
very
> neutral tone, no color casts in highlights or shadows... especially 
when
> viewed under tungsten room light. I do notice that even these dye 
inks
> suffer a small degree of metamerism but then again so do my walls!  
Then
> again it could be my aging eyes.
> 
> .....
> 
> I have recently been experimenting with conversion to CMYK after 
changing
> the CMYK set up to Heavy ink/0% dot gain. Then I convert to the
> printer/paper profile (RGB). I do not have a RIP so cannot send 
CMYK files
> directly.  I can get a better black and less color is layed down 
this way.
> 
> I used to control CMYK conversion for my images that go to offset 
press but
> they are always color.  Now that I have found a wonderful printer I 
let them
> convert the files for their specific printers.
> 
> Is anyone using a RIP seeing an advantage to controlling the CMYK 
conversion
> prior to sending RGB files for black and white inkjet printing? If 
this has
> been covered in excess I appologize. When the Epson converts from 
my RGB
> file it does a great job with color but would monochrome printing 
be better

> served converting using Photoshop with a RIP?
> 
> I am looking forward to trying out quad-tone inks... which would you
> recommend would be easiest to start out with?
> 
> 
> Thanks, Carolyn Frayn
> Alberta, Canada
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Oh, by the way don't let Carolyn's claims of being an amateur fool
> you.....I don't think she is allowed to play in the novice class.

Indeed!

Carolyn, I have a couple of follow up questions.
 
>> Sometimes if the highlight details are missing on the preview I'll
>> apply a
>> -.1 or less analog gain in master.

What is analog gain and how is it applied? Is it raising the center (gamma)
of the master curve?

>> 
>> If the negative is difficult and I cannot achieve an acceptable
>> tonal range
>> I will scan two or three times with different curves settings, one
>> optimized
>> highlights, one for shadows and sometimes one for midtones. Then I
>> combine
>> the files as layers in photoshop and apply layer masks to each scan
>> allowing
>> the best parts of each to show through.

Is this so that you can hold detail throughout the entire range of the
original at good contrast *and* while maintaining the integrity of the
histogram? Otherwise you could just capture a flat (soft contrast) rendition
of the image at the scan stage, and apply contrast through curves; but this
would yield a combed histogram. Is that your reason for scanning separately
for shadows and highlights?

Thanks, I very much enjoyed learning your workflow.

Todd

Todd,

> Carolyn, I have a couple of follow up questions.

> What is analog gain and how is it applied? Is it raising the center (gamma)
> of the master curve?

Analog gain controls the brightness of the scanners light source.  If used
sparingly it can help bring out things that a normal scan doesn't... If used
to excess it can make very funky images.

It is found under scanner extras in my Nikon LS2000's software... along with
ICE and multi-scan settings.

You can control the master or each channel. I brought out segments of a
spiders leg by using the analog gain that were otherwise blown out with any
curve combo I tried... I lowered the brightness of the light and there it
was. 

I understand that this feature is still available on the 4000 and 8000ED
models...

> Is this so that you can hold detail throughout the entire range of the
> original at good contrast *and* while maintaining the integrity of the
> histogram? Otherwise you could just capture a flat (soft contrast) rendition
> of the image at the scan stage, and apply contrast through curves; but this
> would yield a combed histogram. Is that your reason for scanning separately
> for shadows and highlights?

Yes, sometimes I cannot find the *right* curve when adjusting for an image
with great contrast, even with a flat scan... although I can see the detail
in the neg. I find that I can bring the detail out of two or more areas
(highlights and shadows) without combing the histogram and causing
posterization by using this method.  Similar to bracketing two or three
shots in the camera  and then layering and blending them in Photoshop...
only I use one negative that has enough detail in these areas.  Without
compressing your tonal range of the scan to employ richness you use the
richness available from more than one scan... Not sure I'm making sense in
my description but it works very well.

I cannot remember where I first heard of this (a few years back) but I was
very pleased to read the same procedure described in John Paul Caponigros
latest book.

I have never had anything drum scanned nor used a higher end film scanner so
I have tried over the years to come up with ways of dealing with my scanners
limitations... 


> Thanks, I very much enjoyed learning your workflow.

Thanks Todd, I appreciate that you found something in it of interest.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

After having some time to try out some of the suggestions in your 
workflow I have a couple of questions.

When you use multiple scans to control a high contrast image, do you 
have to do any special blending techniques with your layer masks to 
get a smooth transition from one to the other?

You wrote "... duplicate image layer, desaturate, invert, gausian 
blur a bit and then apply over original image layer with an overlay 
or soft light blend set from 10 - 30%." Is the 10-30% the 
layer "Opacity" or are you using the "Fill Opacity" in the "Advanced 
Blending" section? Or do they do the same thing?

What are your favorite papers to use with the Epson inks to get a B&W 
print?

You asked, "I am looking forward to trying out quad-tone inks... 
which would you recommend would be easiest to start out with?"

This is a hard choice. From a software point of view the PiezoBW inks 
and driver combination are the most user friendly. However they do 
seem to suffer from more "mechanical" difficulties in terms of ink 
clogging and sometimes require a good deal of patience for things to 
clear up.

The MIS VM would be the other choice. With Paul Roark's curves the 
software end is very workable but lacks a slick user interface. There 
is also a lack of ink/paper/printer curves at the moment but it does 
work great out of the box with Epson Archival Matte and the Legion 
Photo Matte. With your experience, tweaking a few curves to get what 
you wanted should not be a problem. (Which you could then share 
saving the rest of us lazy folks from having to do our own. <<G>>) 
The MIS inks do not seem to suffer the "mechanical" problems of the 
Piezo inks in terms of clogging.

Ink color is a very personal think. The Piezo inks are warm-neutral 
and the MIS VM inks can be adjusted to print very cold to warm 
depending upon the curve you use. If you contact inkjetmall.com they 
will send you a very small sample print of the Piezo inks.

In terms of cost the MIS is the least damaging to the pocket book to 
get into.

If you want to print on glossy rather than matte papers you should 
consider the Lincoln Inks Spectratone Quads. This is a dye based ink 
set, which has a very nice selenium tone to them. You can find their 
website in the "Bookmarks" section.

Regarding the CYMK workflow check back through Tyler Boley's posts. 
He has been doing just that for quite some time. Also check out Dan 
Culbertson's posts.

Thanks again for the info.

Martin

on 9/6/01 8:08 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> If you want to print on glossy rather than matte papers you should
> consider the Lincoln Inks Spectratone Quads. This is a dye based ink
> set, which has a very nice selenium tone to them. You can find their
> website in the "Bookmarks" section.

BTW, the Brightcube gloss and semi-matte papers take the piezo inks pretty
well, with minimal to no dusting. Some bronzing though. It's not for me, but
it's viable.

Todd

Martin,

> When you use multiple scans to control a high contrast image, do you
> have to do any special blending techniques with your layer masks to
> get a smooth transition from one to the other?

Nothing special... I will either paint the areas to be masked with a soft
brush or I will use any of the selection tools as required with a feathered
edge. Or you can draw a path with the pen tool thru or around the areas you
wish to mask and then select Gausian blur to blur the mask the amount
required for a smooth transition from one layered scan to the next.

Another method is to choose the tones you wish to mask with the magic wand,
make that selection an alpha channel, blur the channel the amount required
for smooth transition, load the channel and apply to the layer mask.  I find
that blurring the alpha channel can sometimes give me better results to the
transition than feathering the selection when making it.

If you are trying to make a linear mask then the gradient tool is the way to
go, great for sunsets etc. Make your gradient in the layer mask, remake it
as many times as you wish till you get the right amount of transition and
then you can add and subtract from the gradient's area with a paintbrush.
Works better than a split density filter??

If you make a mask from the image (either from an alpha channel or by
clicking alt+control+~) Fill mask with black from this selection then alter
that mask with blurring, painting, gradients etc.

Another great thing is to use the layer sets feature. Put the layers
requiring additional masking into a set and then mask the set folder. I'll
use this if I've heavily masked a layer and then wish to add a gradient
mask. The layer goes into the set folder and the gradient is applied to the
folder. 


> You wrote "... duplicate image layer, desaturate, invert, gausian
> blur a bit and then apply over original image layer with an overlay
> or soft light blend set from 10 - 30%." Is the 10-30% the
> layer "Opacity" or are you using the "Fill Opacity" in the "Advanced
> Blending" section? Or do they do the same thing?

They do the same thing as will the "general blending" slider in the same
window as the "advanced blending" but the "advanced blending" allows you to
blend from different channels and has knock out functions.  For straight
photographic images I just use the opacity slider in the layers palette
window.


> What are your favorite papers to use with the Epson inks to get a B&W
> print?

The end of this workflow was for the old non-archival wonderfully glossy
"Epson Photo Paper"... That's where I get a neutral print. I have not had
that kind of luck without using just the black ink using the archival inks
with my 2000P.  They print very neutral under tungsten but shift to green
under daylight. No amount of curve adjustment changes the green shift (for
me) with neutral prints on Epson Archival Matte or watercolor paper.  The
"black ink only prints" suffer no metamerism whatsoever with Epson Archival
inks and EAM.

I hate to say that I've only ever used Epson papers... looking forward to
using all the papers you folks mention.. with all the wonderful advise
given.

Thanks for the info on quad tone inks... I'll make the plunge on something
this month.  I'm leaning towards the PiezoBW to start.


> Regarding the CYMK workflow check back through Tyler Boley's posts.
> He has been doing just that for quite some time. Also check out Dan
> Culbertson's posts.

Will do that... thanks very much Martin,

Carolyn

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> If you make a mask from the image (either from an alpha 
channel or by
> clicking alt+control+~) Fill mask with black from this selection 
then alter
> that mask with blurring, painting, gradients etc.


Martin,

If she's a "novice", then I'm selling everything and applying at 
Home Depot or UPS...

-MTucker

Hi Mark,

Funny!... You are photographer extraordinaire... your body of work is
stunning!   I just "do photoshop" and try to make nice prints... I can only
dream of having your photographic talent.


Carolyn

PS:  Your wife does have pretty feet.

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn
> <carolyn@u...> wrote:
>> If you make a mask from the image (either from an alpha
> channel or by
>> clicking alt+control+~) Fill mask with black from this selection
> then alter
>> that mask with blurring, painting, gradients etc.
> 
> 
> Martin,
> 
> If she's a "novice", then I'm selling everything and applying at
> Home Depot or UPS...
> 
> -MTucker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:

(snip)

> Nothing special... 

Yeah, sure, Carolyn. Considering I didn't even know you could apply 
filters to alpha channels. I had to print out your message and take 
some time trying all the different blending methods to really follow 
you. This is like a mini class in Photoshop.
 
>I will either paint the areas to be masked with a soft
> brush or I will use any of the selection tools as required with a 
feathered
> edge. Or you can draw a path with the pen tool thru or around the 
areas you
> wish to mask and then select Gausian blur to blur the mask the 
amount
> required for a smooth transition from one layered scan to the next.
> 
> Another method is to choose the tones you wish to mask with the 
magic wand,
> make that selection an alpha channel, blur the channel the amount 
required
> for smooth transition, load the channel and apply to the layer 
mask.  I find
> that blurring the alpha channel can sometimes give me better 
results to the
> transition than feathering the selection when making it.

I really like the technique of using the Guassian Blur on the Alpha 
channel. A great way to select a tonal range for adjustment and have 
it blend invisibly.
> 
> If you are trying to make a linear mask then the gradient tool is 
the way to
> go, great for sunsets etc. Make your gradient in the layer mask, 
remake it
> as many times as you wish till you get the right amount of 
transition and
> then you can add and subtract from the gradient's area with a 
paintbrush.
> Works better than a split density filter??

Is a 747 faster than a Model T?

> 
> If you make a mask from the image (either from an alpha channel or 
by
> clicking alt+control+~) Fill mask with black from this selection 
then alter
> that mask with blurring, painting, gradients etc.
> 
> Another great thing is to use the layer sets feature. Put the layers
> requiring additional masking into a set and then mask the set 
folder. I'll
> use this if I've heavily masked a layer and then wish to add a 
gradient
> mask. The layer goes into the set folder and the gradient is 
applied to the
> folder. 

Another great tip!
> 
(snip)
> 
> They do the same thing as will the "general blending" slider in the 
same
> window as the "advanced blending" but the "advanced blending" 
allows you to
> blend from different channels and has knock out functions.  For 
straight
> photographic images I just use the opacity slider in the layers 
palette
> window.

Appreciate the explanation.
> 
(snip)

> The end of this workflow was for the old non-archival wonderfully 
glossy
> "Epson Photo Paper"... That's where I get a neutral print. I have 
not had
> that kind of luck without using just the black ink using the 
archival inks
> with my 2000P.  They print very neutral under tungsten but shift to 
green
> under daylight. No amount of curve adjustment changes the green 
shift (for
> me) with neutral prints on Epson Archival Matte or watercolor 
paper.  The
> "black ink only prints" suffer no metamerism whatsoever with Epson 
Archival
> inks and EAM.

That is interesting that the metamerism does not involve all the inks 
in the set.
> 
> I hate to say that I've only ever used Epson papers... looking 
forward to
> using all the papers you folks mention.. with all the wonderful 
advise
> given.

I like the Epson papers with the Epson inks but most of glossy papers 
do not do well with the pigment quad inks. Archival Matte has a huge 
following among quad ink users. We just keep looking for that paper 
that is a little whiter and prints a little darker. There are some 
wonderful ones out there but it is a very different look.
> 
> Thanks for the info on quad tone inks... I'll make the plunge on 
something
> this month.  I'm leaning towards the PiezoBW to start.

I believe you said you had a 1200. Are you going to dedicate that to 
the Piezo? I will recommend that you go for the CIS (Continuous 
Inking System) as soon as you can. It will save you many headaches 
and quickly pay for itself. I was going to suggest you check out the 
Piezo list but I see you have already established yourself as the 
resident Mac and Photoshop guru!

(snip)

Here is a question you might be able to answer for me. One of many 
things that drive me nuts in Photoshop and have lead me to believe 
that no photographers were involved in designing the program.

In the darkroom one of the most important tools is a piece of 
cardboard to use for dodging and burning during printing. Some people 
just use their hands. One of the most common things is to burn in the 
sky using the cardboard to mask the foreground. The sky gets burned 
down as a gradient from the top. However, I typically bend the 
cardboard slightly or even into an S shape achieving a gradient burn 
that follows a curved path. As far as I can tell Photoshop only does 
gradients along from a straight line or as a sphere. Is there anyway 
to create a gradient off of a free hand curve or path?

Thanks,

Martin

Mark,

I definitely banned her from the novice class and after that last 
post she is banished from intermediate. She should probably just skip 
the master category and just become a resident Photoshop guru.

How are the benefits at Home Depot?

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
> <carolyn@u...> wrote:
> > If you make a mask from the image (either from an alpha 
> channel or by
> > clicking alt+control+~) Fill mask with black from this selection 
> then alter
> > that mask with blurring, painting, gradients etc.
> 
> 
> Martin,
> 
> If she's a "novice", then I'm selling everything and applying at 
> Home Depot or UPS...
> 
> -MTucker

Martin, 

If you get a job at Home Depot will you answer my questions about clear
coating products for photographic prints when I come in to buy?  I'm afraid
you will have to start out by working the midnight to 8 shift.  Maybe you
could talk home depot into becoming a Cone approved reseller...I'll have 1
bakers rack, 2 sheets of plywood and a 4ozx4 of Cone Quad and 5 gallons of
Varathane to go, please!

Robert

On 9/7/01 4:59 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> Mark,
> 
> I definitely banned her from the novice class and after that last
> post she is banished from intermediate. She should probably just skip
> the master category and just become a resident Photoshop guru.
> 
> How are the benefits at Home Depot?
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...>
> wrote:
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn
>> <carolyn@u...> wrote:
>>> If you make a mask from the image (either from an alpha
>> channel or by
>>> clicking alt+control+~) Fill mask with black from this selection
>> then alter
>>> that mask with blurring, painting, gradients etc.
>> 
>> 
>> Martin,
>> 
>> If she's a "novice", then I'm selling everything and applying at
>> Home Depot or UPS...
>> 
>> -MTucker
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Hmmm.... On second though UPS might be the better choice. Good union. 
Or maybe become an overpriced consultant to the coating industry. 
<<g>>

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Martin, 
> 
> If you get a job at Home Depot will you answer my questions about 
clear
> coating products for photographic prints when I come in to buy?  
I'm afraid
> you will have to start out by working the midnight to 8 shift.  
Maybe you
> could talk home depot into becoming a Cone approved reseller...I'll 
have 1
> bakers rack, 2 sheets of plywood and a 4ozx4 of Cone Quad and 5 
gallons of
> Varathane to go, please!
> 
> Robert
> 
(Snip)

Martin,

>> Works better than a split density filter??
> 
> Is a 747 faster than a Model T?

<g>  I've never used a split density filter... so thanks for that analogy!


>> "black ink only prints" suffer no metamerism whatsoever with Epson
> Archival
>> inks and EAM.
> 
> That is interesting that the metamerism does not involve all the inks
> in the set.

I think so too. 


> I believe you said you had a 1200. Are you going to dedicate that to
> the Piezo? I will recommend that you go for the CIS (Continuous
> Inking System) as soon as you can. It will save you many headaches
> and quickly pay for itself. I was going to suggest you check out the
> Piezo list but I see you have already established yourself as the
> resident Mac and Photoshop guru!

Yes, I'd like to use my 1200 for the Piezo, I'll be sure to get the CIS,
thanks... A guru I ain't, just been doing this a while.  I had a Commodore
64 before I got my first little Mac!  It's all your fault I'm posting so
much, nice to "meet" people with the same interests... it's bloody addictive
though!


> Here is a question you might be able to answer for me. One of many
> things that drive me nuts in Photoshop and have lead me to believe
> that no photographers were involved in designing the program.
> 
> In the darkroom one of the most important tools is a piece of
> cardboard to use for dodging and burning during printing. Some people
> just use their hands. One of the most common things is to burn in the
> sky using the cardboard to mask the foreground. The sky gets burned
> down as a gradient from the top. However, I typically bend the
> cardboard slightly or even into an S shape achieving a gradient burn
> that follows a curved path. As far as I can tell Photoshop only does
> gradients along from a straight line or as a sphere. Is there anyway
> to create a gradient off of a free hand curve or path?

I don't think you can create a gradient from a path, I've only seen what you
have described plus diamonds etc... the gradient itself does not curve,
would be nice though!  I'll look into it.

I would try making the canvas bigger than the image, using the magic wand
tool with a very large feather... (it maxes at 250 px) draw your curve or S
shape across, then go a bit outside of the canvas, up, across and down the
other side to join the beginning of your curve. Click the layer mask button,
fill with black. If the feather is to much then re-do. If the feather does
not give you enough transition maybe try blurring it or filling with 50%
gray instead of black. Also you can unlink the mask from the image and move
the mask up or down to find the best place for the transition.

I suggested making the canvas bigger so that the feathered edge of the
selection that will follow around the two sides and top will not be in the
image.

Don't know if that is what you're after? Or if my writing made sense. Please
let me know.

Best,
Carolyn

Hi Carolyn,

I am new to printing and most of what you have been discussing is 
over my head. However, am I correct in this post that you print 
duotones? I am printing selenium-toned duotones with some adjustment 
in the curve box beside the color. Do you print any selenium type 
duotones that you like and wouldn't mind sharing? My site url is at 
the bottom of this post so you can see the type of images that I use 
for my printing. Any help you care to give will be most appreciated. 
It seems that most people prefer straight b/w as opposed to the type 
of printing I do. Consequently, when anyone mentions duotones they 
immediately get my attention. Thank you.

Regards,


Tim

www.portraitsofnature.net














--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Hello group,
> 
> The following is from an extremely amatuer photographer without 
profiling
> ability (yet) so please bare with the non-technical writing.
> ............
> 
> This workflow was written up for someone requesting info on how to 
print BW
> with Epson Dye Inks on Epson Paper.  Obviously not the paper of 
choice for
> most but for anyone interested I find this works pretty well for 
printing BW
> from my Epsons 1200 with Epson color dye inks. I get lovely deep 
blacks and
> richness... but of course I also get dots.
> 
> 
> Scanning:  (Nikon LS2000 - Nikon 2.5 software - firmware updated)
> 
> I always scan in RGB.  I scan at 2700 dpi : 12 bit : 16 times multi 
scan
> 
> I do not use heavy curves with the scanner software as I prefer to 
do most
> adjustments in Photoshop.  I will set the highlight and shadow 
points where
> they achieve the greatest range without losing detail or I'll just 
aquire a
> raw scan.
> 
> Sometimes if the highlight details are missing on the preview I'll 
apply a
> -.1 or less analog gain in master.
> 
> If the negative is difficult and I cannot achieve an acceptable 
tonal range
> I will scan two or three times with different curves settings, one 
optimized
> highlights, one for shadows and sometimes one for midtones. Then I 
combine
> the files as layers in photoshop and apply layer masks to each scan 
allowing
> the best parts of each to show through.
> 
> 
> Photoshop:
> 
> Save file as master.
> 
> Under view>proof setup>custom set your printer/paper/ink profile to 
what you
> will be using. In this case I'll use the Epson 1200 Photo Paper 
profile.
> 
> If my file is high bit (12 from scanner - 16 in photoshop) I will 
do a curve
> adjustment before converting to 8 bit. With the curve dialogue 
open, in RGB
> channel I use the  eye droppers to set my highlights and shadow 
points.
> Double click on each eyedropper in turn and set the values for 
maximum black
> and minimum white (the default values for these eye droppers are 
set for
> offset press CMYK output, you can set the K value to 100%). Then 
adjust
> gamma with a slight curve to suit the midtones.
> 
> Convert to 8 bit.
> 
> If the file was scanned in 8 bit I will apply a curve adjustment 
layer,
> using the above technique but the adjustment layer allows for 
further
> editing later on.
> 
> I'll either use a channel mixer adjustment layer (monochrome on) 
and play
> with it until I get a pleasing BW image or I'll convert the file to 
LAB and
> choose the Lightness channel.
> 
> If you want to try duo or tritones convert the file to grayscale, 
then
> convert to duotone and select a preset curve (or click the curves 
beside
> each ink and play with it till you love it), then convert back to 
RGB.  One
> of my favorites is a tritone preset Brown 4... it is very subtle.
> 
> If there are blocked shadows or I just feel the contrast is to much 
and I
> cannot fix it with gentle curve adjustments I'll use a contrast mask
> layer... duplicate image layer, desaturate, invert, gausian blur a 
bit and
> then apply over original image layer with an overlay or soft light 
blend set
> from 10 - 30%.
> 
> I sometimes create an alpha channel to make masks for tonal 
adjustments by
> copy/pasting the image layer to a new channel layer and then 
loading that
> channel as a selection, click back to your layers window, choose a 
curve or
> levels adjustment layer and then use the channel selection as a 
mask on a
> levels or curves adjustment layer. Invert the selection and make a 
new mask
> to choose between highlights and shadows.
> 
> Also helpful for stubborn negatives is to duplicate the image layer 
and set
> blend mode to "screen" with a low opacity... again adding a mask to 
this
> will help block out areas where you do not want it to apply.
> 
> When all is looking fine I will apply a little sharpening. I like 
to convert
> to LAB and sharpen the lightness channel when I can...  Try 
sharpening
> different RGB channels or masking the smooth areas like the sky and
> sharpening the rest.  Try doing a little sharpening before using 
the channel
> mixer. Each image warrants it's own unique approach.
> 
> Another method I like to use in RGB is to apply "unsharp mask", 
choose
> "fade" under the edit menu but don't change the amount just change 
the blend
> mode from normal to luminosity.
> 
> Save the layered file with a new name... I always save the original
> scan/scans and then a layered file with all the adjustments. Then I 
flatten
> the file and save it for printing.
> 
> Sample Print:
> 
> Go to "image size", uncheck "resample", set your resolution at 240 
or 360.
> Now check "resample" and set the size you want your image to print 
if it
> differs from what is created by setting your resolution.
> 
> In the printer driver I set Source Space to "Document": Print 
Space -
> Document "Epson 1200 Photo Paper", Intent "Perceptual".  Or you can 
just set
> the source space to "Proof Setup" if your soft proof is on.
> Advanced settings at : Photo Paper: 1400 dpi: Error Diffusion: No 
Color
> Management: 
> 
> Print to Epson Photo Paper: let dry
> 
> *** Sometimes an image file will posterize when converted to an 
Epson
> profile (the 1200 profiles are not the best.) In this case I will 
make all
> adjustment layers in the original RGB Space (I use Adobe (1998) 
RGB) without
> the soft proof. Then I print without color managment, setting the 
Source
> Space to Document: Print Space to Same as Source and printing in 
Automatic.
> 
> Adjust the image using the sample as a guide... usually my samples 
have a
> magenta cast. I put an adjustment to a curve layer by setting the 
128 point
> from between 125 and 120 in the red channel. Or if there is a green 
cast
> fiddle with the green channel.
> 
> I prefer to achieve a neutral tone as the ambient room light 
changes the
> prints tone itself during the day. I have found that I can get a 
very
> neutral tone, no color casts in highlights or shadows... especially 
when
> viewed under tungsten room light. I do notice that even these dye 
inks
> suffer a small degree of metamerism but then again so do my walls!  
Then
> again it could be my aging eyes.
> 
> .....
> 
> I have recently been experimenting with conversion to CMYK after 
changing
> the CMYK set up to Heavy ink/0% dot gain. Then I convert to the
> printer/paper profile (RGB). I do not have a RIP so cannot send 
CMYK files
> directly.  I can get a better black and less color is layed down 
this way.
> 
> I used to control CMYK conversion for my images that go to offset 
press but
> they are always color.  Now that I have found a wonderful printer I 
let them
> convert the files for their specific printers.
> 
> Is anyone using a RIP seeing an advantage to controlling the CMYK 
conversion
> prior to sending RGB files for black and white inkjet printing? If 
this has
> been covered in excess I appologize. When the Epson converts from 
my RGB
> file it does a great job with color but would monochrome printing 
be better

> served converting using Photoshop with a RIP?
> 
> I am looking forward to trying out quad-tone inks... which would you
> recommend would be easiest to start out with?
> 
> 
> Thanks, Carolyn Frayn
> Alberta, Canada
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> that follows a curved path. As far as I can tell Photoshop only does
>> gradients along from a straight line or as a sphere. Is there anyway
>> to create a gradient off of a free hand curve or path?

Martin, you could also just draw your path with a very large, soft brush.
(One half of a soft brush is a gradient and that gradient would follow the
path).  There would be a lot of touch up where you wish it to be totally
opaque.

Carolyn

You guys are better than the comedy channel ;-)

Disclaimer:  I only watch the comedy channel when forced by teenage sons!

> Hmmm.... On second though UPS might be the better choice. Good union.
> Or maybe become an overpriced consultant to the coating industry.
> <<g>>
> 
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison"
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>> Martin, 
>> 
>> If you get a job at Home Depot will you answer my questions about
> clear
>> coating products for photographic prints when I come in to buy?
> I'm afraid
>> you will have to start out by working the midnight to 8 shift.
> Maybe you
>> could talk home depot into becoming a Cone approved reseller...I'll
> have 1
>> bakers rack, 2 sheets of plywood and a 4ozx4 of Cone Quad and 5
> gallons of
>> Varathane to go, please!
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
> (Snip)

Does Home Depot sell glue capable of putting one's head back together after
it has exploded?

> I definitely banned her from the novice class and after that last
> post she is banished from intermediate. She should probably just skip
> the master category and just become a resident Photoshop guru.
> 
> How are the benefits at Home Depot?
> 
> Martin

yes but it will not go back together in the same configuration. I think you
have to use layers.
trish
ternahan@...

> From: Carolyn  Frayn <carolyn@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 12:49:09 -0600
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Martin/Mark (OT)
> 
> Does Home Depot sell glue capable of putting one's head back together after
> it has exploded?
> 
> 
>> I definitely banned her from the novice class and after that last
>> post she is banished from intermediate. She should probably just skip
>> the master category and just become a resident Photoshop guru.
>> 
>> How are the benefits at Home Depot?
>> 
>> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
(snip)
> 
> Yes, I'd like to use my 1200 for the Piezo, I'll be sure to get the 
CIS,
> thanks... A guru I ain't, just been doing this a while.  I had a 
Commodore
> 64 before I got my first little Mac!  It's all your fault I'm 
posting so
> much, nice to "meet" people with the same interests... it's bloody 
addictive
> though!

Yep!!

> > Here is a question you might be able to answer for me. One of many
> > things that drive me nuts in Photoshop and have lead me to believe
> > that no photographers were involved in designing the program.
> > 
> > In the darkroom one of the most important tools is a piece of
> > cardboard to use for dodging and burning during printing. Some 
people
> > just use their hands. One of the most common things is to burn in 
the
> > sky using the cardboard to mask the foreground. The sky gets 
burned
> > down as a gradient from the top. However, I typically bend the
> > cardboard slightly or even into an S shape achieving a gradient 
burn
> > that follows a curved path. As far as I can tell Photoshop only 
does
> > gradients along from a straight line or as a sphere. Is there 
anyway
> > to create a gradient off of a free hand curve or path?
> 
> I don't think you can create a gradient from a path, I've only seen 
what you
> have described plus diamonds etc... the gradient itself does not 
curve,
> would be nice though!  I'll look into it.
> 
> I would try making the canvas bigger than the image, using the 
magic wand
> tool with a very large feather... (it maxes at 250 px) draw your 
curve or S
> shape across, then go a bit outside of the canvas, up, across and 
down the
> other side to join the beginning of your curve. Click the layer 
mask button,
> fill with black. If the feather is to much then re-do. If the 
feather does
> not give you enough transition maybe try blurring it or filling 
with 50%
> gray instead of black. Also you can unlink the mask from the image 
and move
> the mask up or down to find the best place for the transition.
> 
> I suggested making the canvas bigger so that the feathered edge of 
the
> selection that will follow around the two sides and top will not be 
in the
> image.
> 
> Don't know if that is what you're after? Or if my writing made 
sense. Please
> let me know.


That sounds like it should work. I will give it a try and see how it 
goes.

Thanks,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> 
> >> that follows a curved path. As far as I can tell Photoshop only 
does
> >> gradients along from a straight line or as a sphere. Is there 
anyway
> >> to create a gradient off of a free hand curve or path?
> 
> Martin, you could also just draw your path with a very large, soft 
brush.
> (One half of a soft brush is a gradient and that gradient would 
follow the
> path).  There would be a lot of touch up where you wish it to be 
totally
> opaque.

Carolyn,

That works great. I made a duplicate image and resampled it to 50 
dpi. Made a new layer and used the edge of a soft brush to create the 
curved gradient I wanted. Resample back to the original resolution 
and copied the layer to the original image and changed the layer to 
color burn. Play with the ooacity a little and it's done. Works like 
a champ!

Thanks very much,

Martin

Aisle 42C, there is a blue light special on the two part epoxy in 5 
gallon pails if you purchase a hot glue gun at the same time. ;-)


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Does Home Depot sell glue capable of putting one's head back 
together after
> it has exploded?
> 
> 
> > I definitely banned her from the novice class and after that last
> > post she is banished from intermediate. She should probably just 
skip

> > the master category and just become a resident Photoshop guru.
> > 
> > How are the benefits at Home Depot?
> > 
> > Martin

What about the Comedy Channel, Martin.  You would have to join SAG...and
might have to strike...but the hours are light and the pay good (when you
can get it)...Robert

On 9/8/01 10:50 AM, "Carolyn Frayn" <carolyn@...> wrote:

> You guys are better than the comedy channel ;-)
> 
> Disclaimer:  I only watch the comedy channel when forced by teenage sons!
> 
> 
> 
>> Hmmm.... On second though UPS might be the better choice. Good union.
>> Or maybe become an overpriced consultant to the coating industry.
>> <<g>>
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison"
>> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>> Martin, 
>>> 
>>> If you get a job at Home Depot will you answer my questions about
>> clear
>>> coating products for photographic prints when I come in to buy?
>> I'm afraid
>>> you will have to start out by working the midnight to 8 shift.
>> Maybe you
>>> could talk home depot into becoming a Cone approved reseller...I'll
>> have 1
>>> bakers rack, 2 sheets of plywood and a 4ozx4 of Cone Quad and 5
>> gallons of
>>> Varathane to go, please!
>>> 
>>> Robert
>>> 
>> (Snip)
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

I would go into automask mode. Draw your S curve (or whatever). Fill 
one side with black. Then do a large gaussian blur.

You should end up with a mask a long the lines of what you are looking 
for. But in those cases I usually just end up painting a mask with the 
airbrush (using a brush size of ~100-650 depending on the image size)

-mikeH


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
mwesley250@e...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
> <carolyn@u...> wrote:
> (snip)
> > 
> > Yes, I'd like to use my 1200 for the Piezo, I'll be sure to get the 
> CIS,
> > thanks... A guru I ain't, just been doing this a while.  I had a 
> Commodore
> > 64 before I got my first little Mac!  It's all your fault I'm 
> posting so
> > much, nice to "meet" people with the same interests... it's bloody 
> addictive
> > though!
> 
> Yep!!
> 
> > > Here is a question you might be able to answer for me. One of many
> > > things that drive me nuts in Photoshop and have lead me to believe
> > > that no photographers were involved in designing the program.
> > > 
> > > In the darkroom one of the most important tools is a piece of
> > > cardboard to use for dodging and burning during printing. Some 
> people
> > > just use their hands. One of the most common things is to burn in 
> the
> > > sky using the cardboard to mask the foreground. The sky gets 
> burned
> > > down as a gradient from the top. However, I typically bend the
> > > cardboard slightly or even into an S shape achieving a gradient 
> burn
> > > that follows a curved path. As far as I can tell Photoshop only 
> does
> > > gradients along from a straight line or as a sphere. Is there 
> anyway
> > > to create a gradient off of a free hand curve or path?
> > 
> > I don't think you can create a gradient from a path, I've only seen 
> what you
> > have described plus diamonds etc... the gradient itself does not 
> curve,
> > would be nice though!  I'll look into it.
> > 
> > I would try making the canvas bigger than the image, using the 
> magic wand
> > tool with a very large feather... (it maxes at 250 px) draw your 
> curve or S
> > shape across, then go a bit outside of the canvas, up, across and 
> down the
> > other side to join the beginning of your curve. Click the layer 
> mask button,
> > fill with black. If the feather is to much then re-do. If the 
> feather does
> > not give you enough transition maybe try blurring it or filling 
> with 50%
> > gray instead of black. Also you can unlink the mask from the image 
> and move
> > the mask up or down to find the best place for the transition.
> > 
> > I suggested making the canvas bigger so that the feathered edge of 
> the
> > selection that will follow around the two sides and top will not be 
> in the
> > image.
> > 
> > Don't know if that is what you're after? Or if my writing made 
> sense. Please
> > let me know.
> 
> 
> That sounds like it should work. I will give it a try and see how it 
> goes.
> 
> Thanks,
> Martin

Mike,

What is so fascinating about Photoshop is the many different ways to 
accomplish the same or similar tasks. I experiment with both of your 
suggestions and the are very workable although I did need to work on 
a de-samples duplicate file, sample back up to the original 
resolution and copy the layer to the orignal file.

With your techniques and Carolyn's my tool box for something I 
thought impossible now contains several tools.

Thanks,

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mh@t... wrote:
> I would go into automask mode. Draw your S curve (or whatever). 
Fill 
> one side with black. Then do a large gaussian blur.
> 
> You should end up with a mask a long the lines of what you are 
looking 
> for. But in those cases I usually just end up painting a mask with 
the 
> airbrush (using a brush size of ~100-650 depending on the image 
size)
> 
> -mikeH
> 
> 
(snip)