Digital BW, The Print

Hi EAM users,

At the Epson booth at Seybold San Francisco last autumn an Epson representative told me that the new Epson Enhanced Archival Matte was superior to the previous Epson Archival Matte

Does anyone have more details?

I am based in the Netherlands, her I only can buy AEM.

Best regards,
Jo Brunenberg
http://www.jobrunenberg.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jo Brunenberg wrote:

> Hi EAM users,
>
>At the Epson booth at Seybold San Francisco last autumn an Epson representative told me that the new Epson Enhanced Archival Matte was superior to the previous Epson Archival Matte
>
>Does anyone have more details?
>
>
>  
>
That rep was either NUTS or plain STUPID...

It's the same paper, simply renamed and without a logo on the back.

That rep is probably the same idiot who was giving people bad 
information at PhotoPlus Expo...

Was he by any chance a stocky guy, sandy hair, early to mid-50's?

Keith

 

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BTW:

It's "EPSON Archival Matte" the old stuff
and "EPSON Enhanced Matte"  (notice, no "Archival" in that name) the new 
stuff

Keith

 

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Editor P.O.V. Image Service [mailto:editor@...] 
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM or Enhanced EAM?
>
> ...
>
> It's the same paper, simply renamed and without a logo on the back.
>
> ...

I have 3 packs of european size EAM (1 x A3+, 2 x A4) and all are
without logo on the back. So, "being logoless" is not a specific
property of the so named *new* EEM.

Regards,
Loris.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici"
<lorism@t...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have 3 packs of european size EAM (1 x A3+, 2 x A4) and all are
> without logo on the back. So, "being logoless" is not a specific
> property of the so named *new* EEM.
> 
> 

It IS in the US market..

Keith

The world does not consist of the US... The original poster of the
question is from The Netherlands...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Krebs <editor@...> 
> [mailto:editor@...] 
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:03 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM or Enhanced EAM?
>
> ...
> 
> It IS in the US market..
> 
> Keith

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici"
<lorism@t...> wrote:
> 
> The world does not consist of the US... 

I don't doubt that... and I never implied the entire world consisted
of the US.  (In fact, I'm probably the least likely American to have
that kind of tunnel-vision - yes, I rightfully resent you leading with
that chip on your shoulder)  

Now, back to the issue at hand.. The basic fact remains that it is THE
SAME BASIC PAPER! 

>The original poster of the
> question is from The Netherlands...
> 
And I'm still waiting for the poster's answer about which "rep" it was..

If it's the moron I think it was, at PhotoExpo Plus East he:

1)  Told people that EPSON did not make ANY inks in China, nistakenly
telling people that the ink cartridges labeled "Made in China" were
counterfeit.  

see these posts:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/message/9365

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/message/9396

2)   Mistakenly adamantly claimed that some EPSON media was NOT EPSON
media (he referred to his "pro media" swatchbook which does not
contain ALL EPSON media). See the following messages.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/message/9390

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/message/9416


For the background on why that LOGO/watermark was on there in the
first place try:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/message/9577

Actually, "HE" probably thinks the US "IS" the world (expecially given
his unawareness of EPSON's global holdings), so if you want a poster
boy for "ugly American" of the month feel free to choose him - NOT me..

As for him, I'll be calling EPSON USA later today to lodge a formal
complaint about his obvious incompetence..  If he doesn't know the
answer, making one up that he thinks is correct is simply unacceptable.

Keith

Loris Medici wrote:

>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Editor P.O.V. Image Service [mailto:editor@...] 
>>Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:18 AM
>>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM or Enhanced EAM?
>>
>>...
>>
>>It's the same paper, simply renamed and without a logo on the back.
>>
>>...
>>    
>>
>
>I have 3 packs of european size EAM (1 x A3+, 2 x A4) and all are
>without logo on the back. So, "being logoless" is not a specific
>property of the so named *new* EEM.
>
>  
>
OK, let's leave the logo out of it...

The fact remains it is STILL the same paper...

Chris Bair (InkJetArt.com) knows/says that, and the product manager for 
EPSON pro consumables in the US confirmed it at Photo Plus Expo East in 
November and, AFAIK, Jerry Olson's tests show that...

I hope that's good enough..

 From what I hear from as they say "reliable sources," after the latest 
Wilhelm test data came back, EPSON chose to change the name from 
"Archival" (especially given Euro "Blue Wool #6 or better" concerns) to 
"Enhanced" to avoid potential legal issues involved in calling a paper 
"Archival" which was not literally "archival"..
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jo,

I've been told that the two papers are identical, only the name changed
because the paper wasn't all that archival.  However, depending on which
epson representative you talk to, you'll get many different answers. 
They probably know far less about their products than most people on
this list.  That paper is still the champ when it comes to quality/price/blacks.

Jerry



Jo Brunenberg wrote:

> 
>  Hi EAM users,
> 
> At the Epson booth at Seybold San Francisco last autumn an Epson representative told me that the new Epson Enhanced Archival Matte was superior to the previous Epson Archival Matte
> 
> Does anyone have more details?
> 
> I am based in the Netherlands, her I only can buy AEM.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jo Brunenberg
> http://www.jobrunenberg.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

All,

I am going back and forth between an old box of EAM and a new box of
EEM.  I see no difference in the paper or in the images whatsoever.  My
EAM profile works identically on EEM.  The reason for switching between
boxes is the missing logo on the EEM.  :-)   I am now using the old EAM
box for proofs only.

I would expect the EAM to ultimately be flushed out of all the food
chains as it finally was at Atlex.

Phil Morse

Jerry Olson wrote:

> 
> Hi Jo,
> 
> I've been told that the two papers are identical, only the name changed
> because the paper wasn't all that archival.  However, depending on which
> epson representative you talk to, you'll get many different answers.
> They probably know far less about their products than most people on
> this list.  That paper is still the champ when it comes to quality/price/blacks.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Jo Brunenberg wrote:
> >
> >  Hi EAM users,
> >
> > At the Epson booth at Seybold San Francisco last autumn an Epson representative told me that the new Epson Enhanced Archival Matte was superior to the previous Epson Archival Matte

Keith, out of curiosity, can anyone agree on the exact longevity of the
term "Archival" ? Is there so many years a print has to exist with no
changes at all to be called that?  How about museums?  When they
announce that they use "Archival Mattes" How long must they last before
they show signs of yellowing?

Many years ago I bought an Ansel Adams print, (dogwood blossoms), at the
Yosemite Gallery.  It was mounted on an "Archival" Matboard, and there
is an "Archival" Museum Quality Window Matte overlaying the image. Well,
over the years the mat has most definitely yellowed, and quite a bit. 
The white dogwood blossoms are pure white.  The difference is obvious.
So even if something is labeled "Archival" it probably will be many
years before we can know if that is true or not. I just have this
feeling that no inkjet prints are at the present time, truly archival. 

But if they last as long as a silver print, maybe that's good enough.

Jerry





"Editor P.O.V. Image Service" wrote:

> 
> Loris Medici wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Editor P.O.V. Image Service [mailto:editor@...]
> >>Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:18 AM
> >>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >>Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM or Enhanced EAM?
> >>
> >>...
> >>
> >>It's the same paper, simply renamed and without a logo on the back.
> >>
> >>...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I have 3 packs of european size EAM (1 x A3+, 2 x A4) and all are
> >without logo on the back. So, "being logoless" is not a specific
> >property of the so named *new* EEM.
> >
> >
> >
> OK, let's leave the logo out of it...
> 
> The fact remains it is STILL the same paper...
> 
> Chris Bair (InkJetArt.com) knows/says that, and the product manager for
> EPSON pro consumables in the US confirmed it at Photo Plus Expo East in
> November and, AFAIK, Jerry Olson's tests show that...
> 
> I hope that's good enough..
> 
>  From what I hear from as they say "reliable sources," after the latest
> Wilhelm test data came back, EPSON chose to change the name from
> "Archival" (especially given Euro "Blue Wool #6 or better" concerns) to
> "Enhanced" to avoid potential legal issues involved in calling a paper
> "Archival" which was not literally "archival"..
> Keith
> 
> 
> 
> "Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
> Publications), at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
> 
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
> guys"
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

put simply, in the world of Conservators and Archives, the term archival has
absolutely no meaning in terms of a fixed longevity for any particular
item - be it paintings, photographs, skin clothing or bone tools. Indeed,
the term generally used is longevity

"Archival" is used in terms of the conditions those items are kept in and
the handling they receive (or don't receive) to stabilize them and slow down
as far as possible any deterioration.

Any particular item will have it's own set of archival standards to provide
optimum conditions for that item. Within those will be generally accepted
figures as to how effective that stabilization is and what the expected
longevity of any particular thing will be under those ideal conditions.

Using the term "archival" to describe ink, paper, film, cd's (as kodak did)
is pure marketing. The items may well last a long time (how long is a piece
of string?) - but that really has nothing to do with them being called
archival or not. Certain paint pigments will last until kingdom come, it
seems, but no-one ever seems to bother much about saying  "hey, buy this
tube of archival paint for doing your landscapes with"

Most likely, Epson was just worried about being sued for using an already
inaccurate term even more inaccurately.... Heaven knows, they have a history
of changing paper names as a pure whim, or at least making them as confusing
as possible - Epson Photo, Epson Glossy Epson Photo Glossy etc etc

tim

Phil, is the logo still on the back in the letter size?

Jerry



Phil Morse wrote:

> 
> All,
> 
> I am going back and forth between an old box of EAM and a new box of
> EEM.  I see no difference in the paper or in the images whatsoever.  My
> EAM profile works identically on EEM.  The reason for switching between
> boxes is the missing logo on the EEM.  :-)   I am now using the old EAM
> box for proofs only.
> 
> I would expect the EAM to ultimately be flushed out of all the food
> chains as it finally was at Atlex.
> 
> Phil Morse
> 
> Jerry Olson wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jo,
> >
> > I've been told that the two papers are identical, only the name changed
> > because the paper wasn't all that archival.  However, depending on which
> > epson representative you talk to, you'll get many different answers.
> > They probably know far less about their products than most people on
> > this list.  That paper is still the champ when it comes to quality/price/blacks.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Jo Brunenberg wrote:
> > >
> > >  Hi EAM users,
> > >
> > > At the Epson booth at Seybold San Francisco last autumn an Epson representative told me that the new Epson Enhanced Archival Matte was superior to the previous Epson Archival Matte
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

YES!    :-(

Jerry Olson wrote:

> 
> Phil, is the logo still on the back in the letter size?
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Phil Morse wrote:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I am going back and forth between an old box of EAM and a new box of
> > EEM.  I see no difference in the paper or in the images whatsoever.  My
> > EAM profile works identically on EEM.  The reason for switching between
> > boxes is the missing logo on the EEM.  :-)   I am now using the old EAM
> > box for proofs only.
> >
> > I would expect the EAM to ultimately be flushed out of all the food
> > chains as it finally was at Atlex.
> >
> > Phil Morse

Other than photography, I have also studied painting and print making 
at the Art Inst., Chicago and I was always worried about the archival 
properites of my works on paper.  I asked a conservator about it and 
he told me frankly that under most situations nothing on paper would 
last more than one hundred years unless it gets into a museum level 
environment.  But to make me feel better he said that if my work 
hadn't made it into museums within a hundred years it really didn't 
matter because no one would care about it anyway:)  At some level, 
you just have to do the best you can and then stop worrying about it.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Keith, out of curiosity, can anyone agree on the exact longevity of 
the
> term "Archival" ? Is there so many years a print has to exist with 
no
> changes at all to be called that?  How about museums?  When they
> announce that they use "Archival Mattes" How long must they last 
before
> they show signs of yellowing?
...

Jerry..
I received an order from ATLEX last week including 3 boxes of 8.5x11..2 were
"Archival Matt" with the logo on the back of each sheet, and the third box
was "Enhanced Matt"..NO LOGOS!!..Hooray!!

Eddie Wiseman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM or Enhanced EAM?


> Phil, is the logo still on the back in the letter size?
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> Phil Morse wrote:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I am going back and forth between an old box of EAM and a new box of
> > EEM.  I see no difference in the paper or in the images whatsoever.  My
> > EAM profile works identically on EEM.  The reason for switching between
> > boxes is the missing logo on the EEM.  :-)   I am now using the old EAM
> > box for proofs only.
> >
> > I would expect the EAM to ultimately be flushed out of all the food
> > chains as it finally was at Atlex.
> >
> > Phil Morse
> >
> > Jerry Olson wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Jo,
> > >
> > > I've been told that the two papers are identical, only the name
changed
> > > because the paper wasn't all that archival.  However, depending on
which
> > > epson representative you talk to, you'll get many different answers.
> > > They probably know far less about their products than most people on
> > > this list.  That paper is still the champ when it comes to
quality/price/blacks.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > Jo Brunenberg wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  Hi EAM users,
> > > >
> > > > At the Epson booth at Seybold San Francisco last autumn an Epson
representative told me that the new Epson Enhanced Archival Matte was
superior to the previous Epson Archival Matte
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Jerry Olson wrote:

>Keith, out of curiosity, can anyone agree on the exact longevity of the
>term "Archival" ? 
>
Agree? Nah...

Harald argues for a "granny standard" of 60 years in his new book...

The Blue Wool 6+ standard applies to Lightfastness (I believe 
essentially for defining something as "Fine Art" by UK "fine Art Guild" 
rules)

>Is there so many years a print has to exist with no
>changes at all to be called that?  How about museums?  When they
>announce that they use "Archival Mattes" How long must they last before
>they show signs of yellowing?
>  
>
Well, literally, in the US, the term really means anything that has been 
archived..  The problem is what it implies about paper permanence..  One 
would reasonably expect it to have longevity significantly beyond that 
of more widely used paper media.

>Many years ago I bought an Ansel Adams print, (dogwood blossoms), at the
>Yosemite Gallery.  It was mounted on an "Archival" Matboard, and there
>is an "Archival" Museum Quality Window Matte overlaying the image. Well,
>over the years the mat has most definitely yellowed, and quite a bit.
>
Generally, Archival Matte has been taken to mean acid free... The focus 
there has always been on making a matte that will not add to any 
degradation or additional aging of the matted media.. So, yellowing of 
the matte is acceptable as long as it  does not cause yellowing of the 
print, etc..  That's part of the confusion, the term is used differently...

> 
>The white dogwood blossoms are pure white.  The difference is obvious.
>So even if something is labeled "Archival" it probably will be many
>years before we can know if that is true or not. I just have this
>feeling that no inkjet prints are at the present time, truly archival. 
>  
>
My feelings as well..

There are HUGE inherent problems in accelerated testing... Here are two: 
 1) It is based on a threshold % of image fading.. What happens when 
with color images you get seriously skewed differential fade? Isn't a 
print that fades that way worthless sooner than one that fades at a 
fairly consistent rate across the spectrum?    2) Witness how the 
"orange shift" fiasco caught EPSON and Wilhelm off-guard..  

Only time in the REAL WORLD (not the MTV version either) under a variety 
of conditions can tell any of us for sure..

>But if they last as long as a silver print, maybe that's good enough.
>
>  
>
I think that if B&W images last a long as an archivally processed fiber 
based silver print, I'll be more than happy... For color images if they 
make it as far, say,  as Fuji Crystal  or Ilfochrome prints, I'll be happy.
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jerry Olson wrote:

>Keith, out of curiosity, can anyone agree on the exact longevity of the
>term "Archival" ?
>
Agree on what a term means?

Artists?

Heck, we can't even agree what a "photo" "is" within the small confines 
of this list..  Artists, in my experience, tend to be about exploration 
and very little agreement.. It makes one or two of us fun at a party, 
but gather a whole bunch in any one place and we split into factions and 
get contentious and defensive pretty fast...

Agreeing on some stark objective meaning for words is for lawyers, 
judges, and scientists -- not for artists... ;-)
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Edward,

Finally!  Atlex must buy their papers by the ton to have had so much of 
the stuff with the logo.  With
my luck, all my boxes will have the logo.

Jerry



Edward Wiseman wrote:

> Jerry..
> I received an order from ATLEX last week including 3 boxes of 8.5x11..2 were
> "Archival Matt" with the logo on the back of each sheet, and the third box
> was "Enhanced Matt"..NO LOGOS!!..Hooray!!
> 
> Eddie Wiseman
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM or Enhanced EAM?
> 
> 
> 
>>Phil, is the logo still on the back in the letter size?
>>
>>Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>Phil Morse wrote:
>>
>>>All,
>>>
>>>I am going back and forth between an old box of EAM and a new box of
>>>EEM.  I see no difference in the paper or in the images whatsoever.  My
>>>EAM profile works identically on EEM.  The reason for switching between
>>>boxes is the missing logo on the EEM.  :-)   I am now using the old EAM
>>>box for proofs only.
>>>
>>>I would expect the EAM to ultimately be flushed out of all the food
>>>chains as it finally was at Atlex.
>>>
>>>Phil Morse
>>>
>>>Jerry Olson wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi Jo,
>>>>
>>>>I've been told that the two papers are identical, only the name
>>>
> changed
> 
>>>>because the paper wasn't all that archival.  However, depending on
>>>
> which
> 
>>>>epson representative you talk to, you'll get many different answers.
>>>>They probably know far less about their products than most people on
>>>>this list.  That paper is still the champ when it comes to
>>>
> quality/price/blacks.
> 
>>>>Jerry
>>>>
>>>>Jo Brunenberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi EAM users,
>>>>>
>>>>>At the Epson booth at Seybold San Francisco last autumn an Epson
>>>>
> representative told me that the new Epson Enhanced Archival Matte was
> superior to the previous Epson Archival Matte
> 
>>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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>>>
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>

And how about the question, how much fading is necessary before one 
calls it unacceptable?  In my humble opinion
if I can tell just by looking at the print that it has changed at all, 
that's too much. In low light conditions, I don't think
I've ever seen fading on any papers or inks. It's only when they get the 
full sun in the sunny window that the
problems arise.

The exception would be Epson's first inks. Every print I've made on them 
has faded huge amounts as well as
color shifted.  But this was about 8 years ago or so.

Jerry



Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:

> 
> Jerry Olson wrote:
> 
> 
>>Keith, out of curiosity, can anyone agree on the exact longevity of the
>>term "Archival" ? 
>>
> 
> Agree? Nah...
> 
> Harald argues for a "granny standard" of 60 years in his new book...
> 
> The Blue Wool 6+ standard applies to Lightfastness (I believe 
> essentially for defining something as "Fine Art" by UK "fine Art Guild" 
> rules)
> 
> 
>>Is there so many years a print has to exist with no
>>changes at all to be called that?  How about museums?  When they
>>announce that they use "Archival Mattes" How long must they last before
>>they show signs of yellowing?
>> 
>>
> 
> Well, literally, in the US, the term really means anything that has been 
> archived..  The problem is what it implies about paper permanence..  One 
> would reasonably expect it to have longevity significantly beyond that 
> of more widely used paper media.
> 
> 
>>Many years ago I bought an Ansel Adams print, (dogwood blossoms), at the
>>Yosemite Gallery.  It was mounted on an "Archival" Matboard, and there
>>is an "Archival" Museum Quality Window Matte overlaying the image. Well,
>>over the years the mat has most definitely yellowed, and quite a bit.
>>
> 
> Generally, Archival Matte has been taken to mean acid free... The focus 
> there has always been on making a matte that will not add to any 
> degradation or additional aging of the matted media.. So, yellowing of 
> the matte is acceptable as long as it  does not cause yellowing of the 
> print, etc..  That's part of the confusion, the term is used differently...
> 
> 
>>The white dogwood blossoms are pure white.  The difference is obvious.
>>So even if something is labeled "Archival" it probably will be many
>>years before we can know if that is true or not. I just have this
>>feeling that no inkjet prints are at the present time, truly archival. 
>> 
>>
> 
> My feelings as well..
> 
> There are HUGE inherent problems in accelerated testing... Here are two: 
>  1) It is based on a threshold % of image fading.. What happens when 
> with color images you get seriously skewed differential fade? Isn't a 
> print that fades that way worthless sooner than one that fades at a 
> fairly consistent rate across the spectrum?    2) Witness how the 
> "orange shift" fiasco caught EPSON and Wilhelm off-guard..  
> 
> Only time in the REAL WORLD (not the MTV version either) under a variety 
> of conditions can tell any of us for sure..
> 
> 
>>But if they last as long as a silver print, maybe that's good enough.
>>
>> 
>>
> 
> I think that if B&W images last a long as an archivally processed fiber 
> based silver print, I'll be more than happy... For color images if they 
> make it as far, say,  as Fuji Crystal  or Ilfochrome prints, I'll be happy.
> Keith
> 
>  
> 
> "Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
>  
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
> guys"
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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>