Digital BW, The Print

Ken, 
A nice balanced post.  

What papers and ink were you using?

You mention "uncoated" papers for their feel.  I assume you mean something like Somerset Velvet.  

Which coated papers have you tried that you liked or did not like.  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ken@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 12:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Reference Print/Reality Check


  Stanley:

  Thank you for your insights. Mark cautions in his initial message 
  about the Weston prints that he isn't comparing silver and inkjet 
  prints...but I want to address what you are saying.

  Recently, I also wondered if my mind's eye was dictating a false 
  expectation. Having worked all these years in silver, I 
  initially 'saw' my new images in a preconceived way. And then I 
  battled to get the mind's image to come true, even tho I was using an 
  entirely new set of tools.

  I've been wanting to use uncoated papers for their aesthetic feel, 
  and pigment inks for their longevity...but the outcome of this match 
  was not what I expected. There was dot gain, I had to 'pinch back' 
  the inks a bunch...I've done test after test. It wasn't what I 'saw' 
  in my mind, or what was on the screen. The same with my color or 
  black&white ink work.

  The point: as you also observed, it is an entirely new medium and yet 
  my mind was still thinking silver. I need to let the paper and inks 
  I've chosen be free a bit, and live within their 
  characteristics...maybe some happy surprises will occur. Moving into 
  this medium was a giant leap, a new paradigm...and my mind has lagged 
  behind with the old vision. Lately, this recognition has allowed me 
  to let the new work move forward, with an acceptance of what it is, 
  unique in itself.

  best,
  ken 


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman:
I've been using Fabriano Uno watercolor paper, and experimenting with 
similar papers, including Somerset Velvet, all uncoated. I've also 
experimented with some coated papers, but nothing seriously, since I 
want the deckle-edge paper for it's presentation.

Inks: 1160 - cis/MIS Variable Mix b&w
      1200 - cis/Generations Enhanced pigment ink
      7000 - still with the initial epson dyes...unsure which ink 
I'll choose, but may use Generations Enhanced for continuity.

I like the Generations Inks for color in the smaller printer. Not 
sure I'll stay with the Variable Mix for b&w, since the warming I 
wanted it for is not coming across on uncoated papers so far. I've 
tried carts of Piezo and MIS standard also. I've not tried the MIS 
Full Spectrum inks yet.

I'm still learning and experimenting. Coated papers are much easier 
to print on to get a photographic look, but it's possible that the 
uncoated papers may lead my eye in another direction, straying from 
what I've done with photography in the past. It's the unknown for me, 
and I'm open to the changes I may find.

ken

 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> Ken, 
> A nice balanced post.  
> 
> What papers and ink were you using?
> 
> You mention "uncoated" papers for their feel.  I assume you mean 
something like Somerset Velvet.  

> 
> Which coated papers have you tried that you liked or did not like.  
> 
> Steadman

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ken@k... wrote:
> Steadman:
> I've been using Fabriano Uno watercolor paper, and experimenting with 
> similar papers, including Somerset Velvet, all uncoated. I've also 
> experimented with some coated papers, but nothing seriously, since I 
> want the deckle-edge paper for it's presentation.
> 
> Inks: 1160 - cis/MIS Variable Mix b&w
>       1200 - cis/Generations Enhanced pigment ink
>       7000 - still with the initial epson dyes...unsure which ink 
> I'll choose, but may use Generations Enhanced for continuity.

Hi Ken,
WOW! You really took the leap since last we talked. I have a suggestion. You have really taken the hardest challenge by 
choosing these kinds of papers, though I don't wish to discourage your efforts. I seem to recall David Stock, who stuck his 
toe in the water here and may have  moved along, has a great deal of experience on uncoated art papers. He may have 
some good input.
Dye inks work much much better on uncoated fine art papers than pigments, though it will still be challenging. Having seen 
some of your work, and now knowing your printers and desired papers, I'd be very inclined to try the Lyson Small Gamuts. It 
wouldn't be too painful to get a set of carts for the 1160 and try some small prints on these papers, before moving into the 
7000. The only negative comments I've heard may be irrelevant on papers like Fabriano. You could also pursue some split 
toning with them, and the range from warm to cool is much greater than the various quad solutions. You will get brighter 
cleaner color, and deeper blacks, before mottle and bleed with dyes
Seriously, if I was after a fine art, more illustrative, deckled edge, uncoated look, I'd walk away from pigments and never 
look back. Well... if I could nail it anyway...
....unless Cone finally comes out with Digital Platinum for the 7000...
 There are many very successful and serious fine art printers and print shops out there using dyes and uncoated fine art 
papers, we never hear about them 'cause they're printing, not posting.
Steadman will forgive me, I hope, for butting in. What you are doing sounds very interesting.
Tyler

Hello Tyler:

yes, it has been a huge leap into the unknown... I expect that my 
grand ideas may end up in some sort of compromise in one direction or 
the other....paper or ink. Maybe using a suitable coated paper, doing 
the deckle with a ruler...whatever. 

I feel an obligation to longevity of course, having been 'archival' 
for so long. Wilhelm mentioned his intent of addressing the Lyson 
Small Gamut inks, which I have had an interest in... I'm also 
thinking about color ink too. 

As I gather some experience and an aesthetic sense of what is 
possible, I'll find a balance somewhere. It is helpful to read the 
experiences of others, and I am attentive to your posts, knowing your 
depth of insight. Thank you for your encouragement and the knowledge 
you share.

best,
ken

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> Hi Ken,
> WOW! You really took the leap since last we talked. I have a 
suggestion. You have really taken the hardest challenge by 
> choosing these kinds of papers, though I don't wish to discourage 
your efforts. I seem to recall David Stock, who stuck his 
> toe in the water here and may have  moved along, has a great deal 
of experience on uncoated art papers. He may have 
> some good input.
> Dye inks work much much better on uncoated fine art papers than 
pigments, though it will still be challenging. Having seen 
> some of your work, and now knowing your printers and desired 
papers, I'd be very inclined to try the Lyson Small Gamuts. It 
> wouldn't be too painful to get a set of carts for the 1160 and try 
some small prints on these papers, before moving into the 
> 7000. The only negative comments I've heard may be irrelevant on 
papers like Fabriano. You could also pursue some split 
> toning with them, and the range from warm to cool is much greater 
than the various quad solutions. You will get brighter 
> cleaner color, and deeper blacks, before mottle and bleed with dyes
> Seriously, if I was after a fine art, more illustrative, deckled 
edge, uncoated look, I'd walk away from pigments and never 
> look back. Well... if I could nail it anyway...
> ....unless Cone finally comes out with Digital Platinum for the 
7000...
>  There are many very successful and serious fine art printers and 
print shops out there using dyes and uncoated fine art 
> papers, we never hear about them 'cause they're printing, not 
posting.
> Steadman will forgive me, I hope, for butting in. What you are 
doing sounds very interesting.
> Tyler

>
>
>I feel an obligation to longevity of course, having been 'archival'
>for so long. Wilhelm mentioned his intent of addressing the Lyson
>Small Gamut inks, which I have had an interest in... I'm also
>thinking about color ink too.
>
>As I gather some experience and an aesthetic sense of what is
>possible,
>best,
>ken


Ken,

 From the aesthetic point of view I am very interested in using 
uncoated paper, do you have any experience with Lyson SG, or have you 
considered Laser printers?

Regards,

Jerry.

Photoinkjet.com plans to offer several coated papers with a deckle edge in
the near future.

Robert

On 9/16/01 11:34 AM, "ken@..." <ken@...> wrote:

> Hello Tyler:
> 
> yes, it has been a huge leap into the unknown... I expect that my
> grand ideas may end up in some sort of compromise in one direction or
> the other....paper or ink. Maybe using a suitable coated paper, doing
> the deckle with a ruler...whatever.
> 
> I feel an obligation to longevity of course, having been 'archival'
> for so long. Wilhelm mentioned his intent of addressing the Lyson
> Small Gamut inks, which I have had an interest in... I'm also
> thinking about color ink too.
> 
> As I gather some experience and an aesthetic sense of what is
> possible, I'll find a balance somewhere. It is helpful to read the
> experiences of others, and I am attentive to your posts, knowing your
> depth of insight. Thank you for your encouragement and the knowledge
> you share.
> 
> best,
> ken
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...>
> wrote:
>> Hi Ken,
>> WOW! You really took the leap since last we talked. I have a
> suggestion. You have really taken the hardest challenge by
>> choosing these kinds of papers, though I don't wish to discourage
> your efforts. I seem to recall David Stock, who stuck his
>> toe in the water here and may have  moved along, has a great deal
> of experience on uncoated art papers. He may have
>> some good input.
>> Dye inks work much much better on uncoated fine art papers than
> pigments, though it will still be challenging. Having seen
>> some of your work, and now knowing your printers and desired
> papers, I'd be very inclined to try the Lyson Small Gamuts. It
>> wouldn't be too painful to get a set of carts for the 1160 and try
> some small prints on these papers, before moving into the
>> 7000. The only negative comments I've heard may be irrelevant on
> papers like Fabriano. You could also pursue some split
>> toning with them, and the range from warm to cool is much greater
> than the various quad solutions. You will get brighter
>> cleaner color, and deeper blacks, before mottle and bleed with dyes
>> Seriously, if I was after a fine art, more illustrative, deckled
> edge, uncoated look, I'd walk away from pigments and never
>> look back. Well... if I could nail it anyway...
>> ....unless Cone finally comes out with Digital Platinum for the
> 7000...
>>  There are many very successful and serious fine art printers and
> print shops out there using dyes and uncoated fine art
>> papers, we never hear about them 'cause they're printing, not
> posting.
>> Steadman will forgive me, I hope, for butting in. What you are
> doing sounds very interesting.
>> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Thank you Robert for that information. That may be the answer to my 
quandry. I will check in with their site. I'm very appreciative that 
you've told me this.

ken


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Photoinkjet.com plans to offer several coated papers with a deckle 
edge in

> the near future.
> 
> Robert
> 

> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@p...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066

Jerry:

I've invested 'everything' in Epson inkjet printers, so I'm going 
that route. As for Lyson Small Gamut inks, I've not tried them, tho 
they are interesting. The one hold-back is so far I see them only 
marketed in carts which can be cost-prohibitive for larger 
printers/media, at least for me. I think the balance of 
aesthetics/presentation/longevity is out there, and as time goes by 
new answers will come forth.
best,
ken


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., meander@m... wrote:
>  From the aesthetic point of view I am very interested in using 
> uncoated paper, do you have any experience with Lyson SG, or have 
you considered Laser printers?
> 
> Jerry.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ken@k... wrote:
snip...
> I feel an obligation to longevity of course, having been 'archival' 
> for so long. Wilhelm mentioned his intent of addressing the Lyson 
> Small Gamut inks, which I have had an interest in... I'm also 
> thinking about color ink too. 

Right, I guess what I mean is that there may be some less popular
solutions out there for you. I think it's a misconception 
that pigments are the only solution for longevity. I bought into the
pigment/coated route, but am still very nervous about 
these coatings. I'm not sure any inkjet solution is archival compared
to a toned fiber silver print.
While waiting for the Small Gamut results, some previous results are
interesting if dyes are considered.
I don't think you'd like them, but the neutral Lysonic quads got >100
years on Somerset Velvet and the warm set got 55-60 
years on Somerset Velvet. Could be some indication of what the SG's
will do.
Lysonic E color inks got 50-55 years on Arches Cold Press and >25
yrs. on Somerset E.
Jan Faul, last I heard, is successfully using all of these Lyson sets
on Arches and Somerset Velvet, including the Small 
Gamuts.
Lincoln Inks are reporting good longevity on Arches with their azo
dyes, both color and quads. I don't know if they've tested 
Somerset Velvet.
Just some ideas,
Tyler

> While waiting for the Small Gamut results, some previous results are
> interesting if dyes are considered.
> I don't think you'd like them, but the neutral Lysonic quads got >100
> years on Somerset Velvet and the warm set got 55-60
> years on Somerset Velvet. Could be some indication of what the SG's
> will do.
> Lysonic E color inks got 50-55 years on Arches Cold Press and >25
> yrs. on Somerset E.
> Jan Faul, last I heard, is successfully using all of these Lyson sets
> on Arches and Somerset Velvet, including the Small
> Gamuts.
> Lincoln Inks are reporting good longevity on Arches with their azo
> dyes, both color and quads. I don't know if they've tested
> Somerset Velvet.

Tyler,

I don't have much experience with dye inks on uncoated papers, but clearly
some are capable of good longevity. I don't expect you've seen all that you
mention above, but based upon what you have seen, how would you say their
gamut, depth of black, metamerism, etc., compare with pigs on coated papers?

Todd

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ken@k... wrote:
> snip...
> > I feel an obligation to longevity of course, having been 'archival' 
> > for so long. Wilhelm mentioned his intent of addressing the Lyson 
> > Small Gamut inks, which I have had an interest in... I'm also 
> > thinking about color ink too. 
> 
> Right, I guess what I mean is that there may be some less popular
> solutions out there for you. I think it's a misconception 
> that pigments are the only solution for longevity. I bought into the
> pigment/coated route, but am still very nervous about 
> these coatings. I'm not sure any inkjet solution is archival compared
> to a toned fiber silver print.
snip
> Just some ideas,
> Tyler

Also interested in uncoated papers for the 7000.

Spoke with Legion Paper West and asked about
a recommended inkset for Som Vel uncoated.

They recommended MIS Hybrid Archival.
The MIS site has some RIT data that results in
what MIS calls 49 year life on Som Vel uncoated.
Also an in-house comparison with Lysonic E
which shows better life...
Gamut comparison unknown. 

Anybody tried these inks on uncoated papers?

Thanks
Bob Obenland

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> mention above, but based upon what you have seen, how would you say their
> gamut, depth of black, metamerism, etc., compare with pigs on coated papers?
> 
> Todd

Todd, gamut and depth of black are far less on uncoated papers no 
matter which ink, without question. Metamerism, I don't know, I've 
only done tests with color images that don't show it well. Because the 
dye is actually absorbed into the uncoated paper metamerism may very 
well be different.
If those qualities are the priority, coated papers are the way to go. 
If not, I've seen some lovely prints with dyes and uncoated.
Tyler

Tyler:

thanks for your viewpoint concerning dyes and uncoated papers. 
Indeed, I have thought that pigments were THE longevity winners. 
Jeez...there's a ton of information out there...one could spend their 
lives and the lives of their printers just testing, testing...and 
like you say, the ones who are happily printing, are probably not 
posting here...they are too busy! I want to be that busy!! haha.

Unfortunately, I'm still in the 'wandering' mode, and will look into 
yours and some of the ideas that have come up concerning this subject.

ken

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 

> Right, I guess what I mean is that there may be some less popular
> solutions out there for you. I think it's a misconception 
> that pigments are the only solution for longevity. I bought into the
> pigment/coated route, but am still very nervous about 
> these coatings...... 
> Just some ideas,
> Tyler

Hi Bob:

I've not tried MIS Archival inks (I assume you refer to the color 
inks). I'm running GenerationsEnhanced in a 1200...debating on the 
color ink to run in the new 7000.

ken

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Obenland" 
<bobenland@m...> wrote:

> Also interested in uncoated papers for the 7000.
> 
> Spoke with Legion Paper West and asked about
> a recommended inkset for Som Vel uncoated.
> 
> They recommended MIS Hybrid Archival.
> The MIS site has some RIT data that results in
> what MIS calls 49 year life on Som Vel uncoated.
> Also an in-house comparison with Lysonic E
> which shows better life...
> Gamut comparison unknown. 
> 
> Anybody tried these inks on uncoated papers?
> 
> Thanks
> Bob Obenland

I did a fare bit of work with OEM Epson 1270 inks on Arches hot press and
Rives BFK before discovering Piezo.  I thought the Arches output was great
at the time, but it isn't even in the same part of the world as Piezo on
coated papers...weak blacks, poor hilights, lack of definition.  I hadn't
really discovered fine art coated papers until I discovered piezo.  I went
back and have tried several of these papers with OEM inks with desasterous
results...mainly with respect to fading. Dyes interact with coatings much
more than pigments and thus can have very unpredictable results. Its
possible that dyes may interact with sizing agents in uncoated papers as
well.  Probably best to soak these papers before you use them...but I'm not
sure whether you could keep them flat enough to go through the printer.
Whenever I'm using Epson OEM inks (1270) I only use Epson papers to play it
safe.  My guess is the MIS inks will behave very similarly to piezo inks
with respect to these issues...although...as particle size probably differs
between the inks they will have their differences.

Robert

On 9/18/01 7:57 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...>
> wrote:
>> mention above, but based upon what you have seen, how would you say their
>> gamut, depth of black, metamerism, etc., compare with pigs on coated papers?
>> 
>> Todd
> 
> Todd, gamut and depth of black are far less on uncoated papers no
> matter which ink, without question. Metamerism, I don't know, I've
> only done tests with color images that don't show it well. Because the
> dye is actually absorbed into the uncoated paper metamerism may very
> well be different.
> If those qualities are the priority, coated papers are the way to go.
> If not, I've seen some lovely prints with dyes and uncoated.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066