Digital BW, The Print

From all the research I have done, you could not use real black & white 
papers on a lightjet. It prints with three colors and not a long enough 
exposure since black & white papers have slower ISOs. Unless everyone I 
have talked to at the major manufactures of digital to traditional 
photographic papers equipment has been lying to me, I was under the 
assumption it can not be done. Are you sure they are not printing on a 
paper that requires RA-4 processing. Also I believe all of those types 
of printers will only take rolls and not cut sheets therefor limiting 
paper choices from Kodak or Ilford to multigrade RCs. I don't think 
either have graded papers in rolls anymore.
Mark

mh wrote:

> I contacted reed by phone and they verified that they do use their
> LightJets with traditional B&W paper with traditional chemistry. Looks
> to be about 8 times the cost of the cheap frontier output on Fuji
> Crystal Archive so I won't go going that route very often.
>
> Here are the costs:
> 8x10  $16.00
> 11x14  $21.25
> 16x20  $31.50
> 20x24  $40.50
>
> Julian, I would like to hear more about your research regarding moving
> from GS to RGB and the lightjet samples. Are you attempting to get as
> neutral a print as possible or are you trying to tone it somewhat to
> get a more pleasing result?
>
> -mh
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour 
> chemistry
> > which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot 
> give them
> > a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb 
> isn't as
> > easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching 
> this and
> > getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
> > straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are 
> possible
> > but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.
> >
> > Julian
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <mh@t...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the 
> Epson 2200?
> >
> >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> > > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > > Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and 
> even the
> > BW
> > > > is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still 
> looks
> > great
> > > > though!
> > > >
> > > > Julian
> > >
> > > It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and 
> White
> > > papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have 
> seen
> > > that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible since
> > > I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively low cost
> > > for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have 
> dedicated
> > > one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy 
> with B&W
> > > on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced upon us.
> > >
> > > I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked like
> > > fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive 
> look
> > > right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone know
> > > if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
> > >
> > > -mh
>
>
>
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>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just read the description on Reed Photo's web site and they must have 
figured some way around the limits. I will be making some phone calls to 
the sales people at the various digital printer manufactures first thing 
Wednesday morning to find out why I have been misled. I have been 
wanting to offer this service in my lab for well over two years.

Red-faced,
Mark



Mark Savoia wrote:

> From all the research I have done, you could not use real black & white
> papers on a lightjet. It prints with three colors and not a long enough
> exposure since black & white papers have slower ISOs. Unless everyone I
> have talked to at the major manufactures of digital to traditional
> photographic papers equipment has been lying to me, I was under the
> assumption it can not be done. Are you sure they are not printing on a
> paper that requires RA-4 processing. Also I believe all of those types
> of printers will only take rolls and not cut sheets therefor limiting
> paper choices from Kodak or Ilford to multigrade RCs. I don't think
> either have graded papers in rolls anymore.
> Mark
>
> mh wrote:
>
> > I contacted reed by phone and they verified that they do use their
> > LightJets with traditional B&W paper with traditional chemistry. Looks
> > to be about 8 times the cost of the cheap frontier output on Fuji
> > Crystal Archive so I won't go going that route very often.
> >
> > Here are the costs:
> > 8x10  $16.00
> > 11x14  $21.25
> > 16x20  $31.50
> > 20x24  $40.50
> >
> > Julian, I would like to hear more about your research regarding moving
> > from GS to RGB and the lightjet samples. Are you attempting to get as
> > neutral a print as possible or are you trying to tone it somewhat to
> > get a more pleasing result?
> >
> > -mh
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour
> > chemistry
> > > which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot
> > give them
> > > a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb
> > isn't as
> > > easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching
> > this and
> > > getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
> > > straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are
> > possible
> > > but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > Julian
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <mh@t...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the
> > Epson 2200?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian 
> Thomas" <
> > > > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > > > Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and
> > even the
> > > BW
> > > > > is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still
> > looks
> > > great
> > > > > though!
> > > > >
> > > > > Julian
> > > >
> > > > It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and
> > White
> > > > papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have
> > seen
> > > > that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible 
> since
> > > > I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively 
> low cost
> > > > for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have
> > dedicated
> > > > one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy
> > with B&W
> > > > on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced 
> upon us.
> > > >
> > > > I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked 
> like
> > > > fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive
> > look
> > > > right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone 
> know
> > > > if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
> > > >
> > > > -mh
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> > 
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>
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
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> >
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> keep them short.
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> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
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> various resources on the homepage.
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is my understanding that David Fokos uses Calypso Imaging in Santa Clara,
CA for all of his B&W prints, which are all done on the LightJet. It is my
understanding that the process works, but it is difficult to get a
consistent color cast, or lack thereof, out of the process.
 
Information here:
 
HYPERLINK
"http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info/Dave_Fokos/
davetech.htm"http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info
/Dave_Fokos/davetech.htm
 
-Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Savoia [mailto:mark@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:17 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: B&W prints on the LightJet at ReedPhoto?


From all the research I have done, you could not use real black & white 
papers on a lightjet. It prints with three colors and not a long enough 
exposure since black & white papers have slower ISOs. Unless everyone I 
have talked to at the major manufactures of digital to traditional 
photographic papers equipment has been lying to me, I was under the 
assumption it can not be done. Are you sure they are not printing on a 
paper that requires RA-4 processing. Also I believe all of those types 
of printers will only take rolls and not cut sheets therefor limiting 
paper choices from Kodak or Ilford to multigrade RCs. I don't think 
either have graded papers in rolls anymore.
Mark

mh wrote:

> I contacted reed by phone and they verified that they do use their
> LightJets with traditional B&W paper with traditional chemistry. Looks
> to be about 8 times the cost of the cheap frontier output on Fuji
> Crystal Archive so I won't go going that route very often.
>
> Here are the costs:
> 8x10  $16.00
> 11x14  $21.25
> 16x20  $31.50
> 20x24  $40.50
>
> Julian, I would like to hear more about your research regarding moving
> from GS to RGB and the lightjet samples. Are you attempting to get as
> neutral a print as possible or are you trying to tone it somewhat to
> get a more pleasing result?
>
> -mh
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour 
> chemistry
> > which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot 
> give them
> > a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb 
> isn't as
> > easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching 
> this and
> > getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
> > straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are 
> possible
> > but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.
> >
> > Julian
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <mh@t...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the 
> Epson 2200?
> >
> >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> > > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > > Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and 
> even the
> > BW
> > > > is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still 
> looks
> > great
> > > > though!
> > > >
> > > > Julian
> > >
> > > It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and 
> White
> > > papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have 
> seen
> > > that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible since
> > > I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively low cost
> > > for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have 
> dedicated
> > > one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy 
> with B&W
> > > on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced upon us.
> > >
> > > I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked like
> > > fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive 
> look
> > > right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone know
> > > if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
> > >
> > > -mh
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint"http://groups.ya
hoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just read the description on Reed Photo's web site and they must have
figured some way around the limits. I will be making some phone calls to
the sales people at the various digital printer manufactures first thing
Wednesday morning to find out why I have been misled. I have been 
wanting to offer this service in my lab for well over two years.

Red-faced,
Mark



Mark Savoia wrote:

> From all the research I have done, you could not use real black & white
> papers on a lightjet. It prints with three colors and not a long enough
> exposure since black & white papers have slower ISOs. Unless everyone I
> have talked to at the major manufactures of digital to traditional
> photographic papers equipment has been lying to me, I was under the
> assumption it can not be done. Are you sure they are not printing on a
> paper that requires RA-4 processing. Also I believe all of those types
> of printers will only take rolls and not cut sheets therefor limiting
> paper choices from Kodak or Ilford to multigrade RCs. I don't think
> either have graded papers in rolls anymore.
> Mark
>
> mh wrote:
>
> > I contacted reed by phone and they verified that they do use their
> > LightJets with traditional B&W paper with traditional chemistry. Looks
> > to be about 8 times the cost of the cheap frontier output on Fuji
> > Crystal Archive so I won't go going that route very often.
> >
> > Here are the costs:
> > 8x10  $16.00
> > 11x14  $21.25
> > 16x20  $31.50
> > 20x24  $40.50
> >
> > Julian, I would like to hear more about your research regarding moving
> > from GS to RGB and the lightjet samples. Are you attempting to get as
> > neutral a print as possible or are you trying to tone it somewhat to
> > get a more pleasing result?
> >
> > -mh
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour
> > chemistry
> > > which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot
> > give them
> > > a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb
> > isn't as
> > > easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching
> > this and
> > > getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
> > > straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are
> > possible
> > > but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > Julian
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <mh@t...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the
> > Epson 2200?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian 
> Thomas" <
> > > > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > > > Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and
> > even the
> > > BW
> > > > > is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still
> > looks
> > > great
> > > > > though!
> > > > >
> > > > > Julian
> > > >
> > > > It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and
> > White
> > > > papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have
> > seen
> > > > that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible 
> since
> > > > I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively 
> low cost
> > > > for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have
> > dedicated
> > > > one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy
> > with B&W
> > > > on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced 
> upon us.
> > > >
> > > > I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked 
> like
> > > > fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive
> > look
> > > > right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone 
> know
> > > > if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
> > > >
> > > > -mh
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > 
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245454.2994396.4323964.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1705019182:HM/A=1457554/R=0/*http://ipunda.com/clk/beibunmaisuiyuiwabei> 
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> > various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David Fokos does use lightjet output, but that is on color paper 
(intentionally, because he likes to tone them slightly).  If a lightjet 
were exposing true B&W paper then you would not need to worry about 
color casts. (linear exposure might be another thing) 

-mh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Biggs" <
andy@a...> wrote:

> It is my understanding that David Fokos uses Calypso Imaging in Santa Clara,
> CA for all of his B&W prints, which are all done on the LightJet. It is my
> understanding that the process works, but it is difficult to get a
> consistent color cast, or lack thereof, out of the process.
>  
> Information here:
>  
> HYPERLINK
> "http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info/Dave_Fokos/
> davetech.htm"http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info
> /Dave_Fokos/davetech.htm
>  
> -Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Savoia [mailto:mark@c...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:17 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: B&W prints on the LightJet at ReedPhoto?
> 
> 
> From all the research I have done, you could not use real black & white 
> papers on a lightjet. It prints with three colors and not a long enough 
> exposure since black & white papers have slower ISOs. Unless everyone I 
> have talked to at the major manufactures of digital to traditional 
> photographic papers equipment has been lying to me, I was under the 
> assumption it can not be done. Are you sure they are not printing on a 
> paper that requires RA-4 processing. Also I believe all of those types 
> of printers will only take rolls and not cut sheets therefor limiting 
> paper choices from Kodak or Ilford to multigrade RCs. I don't think 
> either have graded papers in rolls anymore.
> Mark
> 
> mh wrote:
> 
> > I contacted reed by phone and they verified that they do use their
> > LightJets with traditional B&W paper with traditional chemistry. Looks
> > to be about 8 times the cost of the cheap frontier output on Fuji
> > Crystal Archive so I won't go going that route very often.
> >
> > Here are the costs:
> > 8x10  $16.00
> > 11x14  $21.25
> > 16x20  $31.50
> > 20x24  $40.50
> >
> > Julian, I would like to hear more about your research regarding moving
> > from GS to RGB and the lightjet samples. Are you attempting to get as
> > neutral a print as possible or are you trying to tone it somewhat to
> > get a more pleasing result?
> >
> > -mh
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour 
> > chemistry
> > > which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot 
> > give them
> > > a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb 
> > isn't as
> > > easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching 
> > this and
> > > getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
> > > straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are 
> > possible
> > > but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > Julian
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <mh@t...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the 
> > Epson 2200?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> > > > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > > > Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and 
> > even the
> > > BW
> > > > > is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still 
> > looks
> > > great
> > > > > though!
> > > > >
> > > > > Julian
> > > >
> > > > It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and 
> > White
> > > > papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have 
> > seen
> > > > that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible since
> > > > I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively low cost
> > > > for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have 
> > dedicated
> > > > one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy 
> > with B&W
> > > > on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced upon us.
> > > >
> > > > I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked like
> > > > fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive 
> > look
> > > > right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone know
> > > > if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
> > > >
> > > > -mh

I had assumed color paper, but I wonder how he controls the tone? I have
heard that the tones will shift wildly between chemical batches. Perhaps he
has Calypso print large batches at the same time?

-----Original Message-----
From: mh [mailto:mh@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:43 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B&W prints on the LightJet at ReedPhoto?


David Fokos does use lightjet output, but that is on color paper 
(intentionally, because he likes to tone them slightly).  If a lightjet 
were exposing true B&W paper then you would not need to worry about 
color casts. (linear exposure might be another thing) 

-mh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Biggs" <
andy@a...> wrote:
> It is my understanding that David Fokos uses Calypso Imaging in Santa
Clara,
> CA for all of his B&W prints, which are all done on the LightJet. It is my
> understanding that the process works, but it is difficult to get a
> consistent color cast, or lack thereof, out of the process.
>  
> Information here:
>  
> HYPERLINK
> "HYPERLINK
"http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info/Dave_Fokos/
"http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info/Dave_Fokos/
> davetech.htm"HYPERLINK
"http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info"http://www.
bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info
> /Dave_Fokos/davetech.htm
>  
> -Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Savoia [mailto:mark@c...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:17 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: B&W prints on the LightJet at ReedPhoto?
> 
> 
> From all the research I have done, you could not use real black & white 
> papers on a lightjet. It prints with three colors and not a long enough 
> exposure since black & white papers have slower ISOs. Unless everyone I 
> have talked to at the major manufactures of digital to traditional 
> photographic papers equipment has been lying to me, I was under the 
> assumption it can not be done. Are you sure they are not printing on a 
> paper that requires RA-4 processing. Also I believe all of those types 
> of printers will only take rolls and not cut sheets therefor limiting 
> paper choices from Kodak or Ilford to multigrade RCs. I don't think 
> either have graded papers in rolls anymore.
> Mark
> 
> mh wrote:
> 
> > I contacted reed by phone and they verified that they do use their
> > LightJets with traditional B&W paper with traditional chemistry. Looks
> > to be about 8 times the cost of the cheap frontier output on Fuji
> > Crystal Archive so I won't go going that route very often.
> >
> > Here are the costs:
> > 8x10  $16.00
> > 11x14  $21.25
> > 16x20  $31.50
> > 20x24  $40.50
> >
> > Julian, I would like to hear more about your research regarding moving
> > from GS to RGB and the lightjet samples. Are you attempting to get as
> > neutral a print as possible or are you trying to tone it somewhat to
> > get a more pleasing result?
> >
> > -mh
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour 
> > chemistry
> > > which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot 
> > give them
> > > a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb 
> > isn't as
> > > easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching 
> > this and
> > > getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
> > > straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are 
> > possible
> > > but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > Julian
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <mh@t...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the 
> > Epson 2200?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas"
<
> > > > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > > > Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and 
> > even the
> > > BW
> > > > > is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still 
> > looks
> > > great
> > > > > though!
> > > > >
> > > > > Julian
> > > >
> > > > It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and 
> > White
> > > > papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have 
> > seen
> > > > that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible
since
> > > > I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively low
cost
> > > > for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have 
> > dedicated
> > > > one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy 
> > with B&W
> > > > on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced upon
us.
> > > >
> > > > I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked
like
> > > > fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive 
> > look
> > > > right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone
know
> > > > if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
> > > >
> > > > -mh




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm trying for neutral first and then maybe a warmtone. I've tried labs with
Lambda and lightjet prints. First off i send a step wedge for a cheapy A4
test - something with a straight conversion in PS. The problem is that
various papers and machines respond differently which is where the profiles
come in - if you have a profiled workspace any decent lab (as Reeds do) will
give you their profiles and you can work from there. I'm perfectly happy
with dig output but some people are searching for FB 'look' and you need to
forget that and accept what the medium offers.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "mh" <mh@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 12:52 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B&W prints on the LightJet at ReedPhoto?


> I contacted reed by phone and they verified that they do use their
> LightJets with traditional B&W paper with traditional chemistry. Looks
> to be about 8 times the cost of the cheap frontier output on Fuji
> Crystal Archive so I won't go going that route very often.
>
> Here are the costs:
> 8x10  $16.00
> 11x14  $21.25
> 16x20  $31.50
> 20x24  $40.50
>
> Julian, I would like to hear more about your research regarding moving
> from GS to RGB and the lightjet samples. Are you attempting to get as
> neutral a print as possible or are you trying to tone it somewhat to
> get a more pleasing result?
>
> -mh
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour
chemistry
> > which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot give
them
> > a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb isn't
as
> > easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching this
and
> > getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
> > straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are
possible
> > but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.
> >
> > Julian
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <mh@t...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the Epson
2200?
> >
> >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> > > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > > Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and even
the
> > BW
> > > > is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still
looks
> > great
> > > > though!
> > > >
> > > > Julian
> > >
> > > It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and
White
> > > papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have
seen
> > > that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible since
> > > I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively low cost
> > > for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have
dedicated
> > > one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy with
B&W
> > > on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced upon us.
> > >
> > > I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked like
> > > fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive
look
> > > right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone know
> > > if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
> > >
> > > -mh
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I think sometimes people get more concerned with the process than they 
do the product. If you have to have prints that look like fiber based 
prints printed on Seagull paper, developed with Dektol, toned for two 
minutes in seleninum toner, then you probably should use Seagull, 
develop it in Dektol, etc.

This medium is not fb darkroom paper and  I suspect it will be quite 
awhile before any of the glossy papers out there will even come close to 
giving the same visual impression. I'm not a big fan of matte papers but 
that seems to be the best combination with good quadtone inks to get 
good images and some are quite nice. Not only that, even the more 
expensive papers, e.g. photo rag, are only 1/2 the cost of Seagull 
darkroom paper. In the darkroom you can't easily compose, "burn" or 
"dodge" (however you choose to do it) on the computer getting feedback 
on your screen prior to going to paper. In the darkroom the paper is the 
feedback and it takes quite a while an quite a bit of expensive paper to 
get a good print from a virgin negative.

When push comes to shove, isn't it about the image? Weston could have 
smeared emulsion on totilet paper and made a better image than 99.9% of 
all the photographers that have ever or ever will live.

Truman

Julian Thomas wrote:

>I'm trying for neutral first and then maybe a warmtone. I've tried labs with
>Lambda and lightjet prints. First off i send a step wedge for a cheapy A4
>test - something with a straight conversion in PS. The problem is that
>various papers and machines respond differently which is where the profiles
>come in - if you have a profiled workspace any decent lab (as Reeds do) will
>give you their profiles and you can work from there. I'm perfectly happy
>with dig output but some people are searching for FB 'look' and you need to
>forget that and accept what the medium offers.
>
>Julian
>  
>

Truman - you quoted me, but I agree exactly with your points- I also like
inkjets on glossy - some images on matte, some images on lightjet etc - vive
la differance - or somethinglike that

J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: B&W prints on the LightJet at ReedPhoto?


> I think sometimes people get more concerned with the process than they
> do the product. If you have to have prints that look like fiber based
> prints printed on Seagull paper, developed with Dektol, toned for two
> minutes in seleninum toner, then you probably should use Seagull,
> develop it in Dektol, etc.
>
> This medium is not fb darkroom paper and  I suspect it will be quite
> awhile before any of the glossy papers out there will even come close to
> giving the same visual impression. I'm not a big fan of matte papers but
> that seems to be the best combination with good quadtone inks to get
> good images and some are quite nice. Not only that, even the more
> expensive papers, e.g. photo rag, are only 1/2 the cost of Seagull
> darkroom paper. In the darkroom you can't easily compose, "burn" or
> "dodge" (however you choose to do it) on the computer getting feedback
> on your screen prior to going to paper. In the darkroom the paper is the
> feedback and it takes quite a while an quite a bit of expensive paper to
> get a good print from a virgin negative.
>
> When push comes to shove, isn't it about the image? Weston could have
> smeared emulsion on totilet paper and made a better image than 99.9% of
> all the photographers that have ever or ever will live.
>
> Truman
>
> Julian Thomas wrote:
>
> >I'm trying for neutral first and then maybe a warmtone. I've tried labs
with
> >Lambda and lightjet prints. First off i send a step wedge for a cheapy A4
> >test - something with a straight conversion in PS. The problem is that
> >various papers and machines respond differently which is where the
profiles
> >come in - if you have a profiled workspace any decent lab (as Reeds do)
will
> >give you their profiles and you can work from there. I'm perfectly happy
> >with dig output but some people are searching for FB 'look' and you need
to
> >forget that and accept what the medium offers.
> >
> >Julian
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I agree that it is easy to get too caught up with the process but 
disagree with everything else you say here.

I became an expert in the darkroom and could make a finished print 
quicker, using less paper, back in the day than I can with digital. All 
the factors with the current digital processes are really a huge hassle 
and I am surprised that as many people are into it as there are.

Unless there is some secret source I don't know about, Photo Rag is 
twice the cost of darkroom paper. Which I find strange since darkroom 
paper is coated with a precious metal!

I get the feeling that you feel we should settle for what is available 
now (ie no fiber glossy look), even though you believe it will be 
possible in the future.  Well I think the future is now and there 
should be a way to get it with todays technology. I love the look of 
piezo on matte paper, don't get me wrong, but there is a void that 
should have been filled by now. (yes, I know, the digital pace has made 
me impatient)   : )

-mh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Truman Prevatt <
tprevatt@m...> wrote:

> I think sometimes people get more concerned with the process than they 
> do the product. If you have to have prints that look like fiber based 
> prints printed on Seagull paper, developed with Dektol, toned for two 
> minutes in seleninum toner, then you probably should use Seagull, 
> develop it in Dektol, etc.
> 
> This medium is not fb darkroom paper and  I suspect it will be quite 
> awhile before any of the glossy papers out there will even come close to 
> giving the same visual impression. I'm not a big fan of matte papers but 
> that seems to be the best combination with good quadtone inks to get 
> good images and some are quite nice. Not only that, even the more 
> expensive papers, e.g. photo rag, are only 1/2 the cost of Seagull 
> darkroom paper. In the darkroom you can't easily compose, "burn" or 
> "dodge" (however you choose to do it) on the computer getting feedback 
> on your screen prior to going to paper. In the darkroom the paper is the 
> feedback and it takes quite a while an quite a bit of expensive paper to 
> get a good print from a virgin negative.
> 
> When push comes to shove, isn't it about the image? Weston could have 
> smeared emulsion on totilet paper and made a better image than 99.9% of 
> all the photographers that have ever or ever will live.
> 
> Truman
> 
> Julian Thomas wrote:

>
> When push comes to shove, isn't it about the image? Weston could have
> smeared emulsion on totilet paper and made a better image than 99.9% of
> all the photographers that have ever or ever will live.

True.  EW thought store-bought paper was the greatest thing since night
baseball when it came out.  I have had the pleasure of watching a contact
print made exactly as EW did, with a bare light bulb wrapped with Kleenex,
on grade one paper (and I might add, an original EW 8x10 neg, the Sand
Nude...).  The resulting print will make you want to trash whatever
equipment you're using, digital or whatever, and give it up.  For a little
while.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com