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Digital BW, The Print

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Re: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?

Re: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?

2003-03-30 by Julian Thomas

martin, it seems to me that if you are looking for a multigrade 'look' the
'best' answer is a 1280 with the new MIS inks and either a curves workflow
or the new IJC software. Lyson dyes shift colour too much and are not
neutral from what I've seen. The only neutral dye prints I've seen are from
Ilford BW inks which you can buy in bulk and use with a cis.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "martinshakeshaft" <martin.shakeshaft@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 10:24 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson
2100/2200?


> I know from the archive that this subject has been covered before but
> I have still to see a definitive answer.
>
> Is it possible to get neutral black and white prints with the Epson
> 2100/2200?
>
> Well here I am one box of paper down and I have still to see a black
> and white print that I like!
>
> Straight out of the box I find the black and white prints I am
> getting are too magenta, especially with the Semi gloss paper samples
> included with the printer. So I tried Ilford Smooth Gloss. These were
> a bit better but still not what I wanted. I have surfed around the
> net for advice, including Redriver and luminous-landscape and whilst
> the quality improves when I hold my prints next to a traditional
> darkroom print the differences are all too depressingly obvious.
> There are colour casts in some tonal ranges.....
>
> So I turned to the Grey Balancer. Several prints later and a lot less
> ink and I still don't appear to be any further on towards a totally
> neutral, Ilford Multigrade looking print.
>
> Even prints printed with black ink only are not neutral, they look
> slightly cyan in the darker tonal ranges.
>
> I phoned Lyson Inks who say a Black and white set of inks will be
> available in the next couple of weeks for the 2100/2200, so is this
> my only answer? I am disappointed if this is the route I have to take
> as I did want to be able to print colour and black and white, but
> black and white is my bread and butter work at the moment.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?

2003-03-30 by Julian Thomas

Martin I forgot to add that a custom profile for a colour printer is
essential. Until you know that the printer is firing the inks in a linear
manner, complex stuff like BW will be next to impossible.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "martinshakeshaft" <martin.shakeshaft@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 10:24 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson
2100/2200?


> I know from the archive that this subject has been covered before but
> I have still to see a definitive answer.
>
> Is it possible to get neutral black and white prints with the Epson
> 2100/2200?
>
> Well here I am one box of paper down and I have still to see a black
> and white print that I like!
>
> Straight out of the box I find the black and white prints I am
> getting are too magenta, especially with the Semi gloss paper samples
> included with the printer. So I tried Ilford Smooth Gloss. These were
> a bit better but still not what I wanted. I have surfed around the
> net for advice, including Redriver and luminous-landscape and whilst
> the quality improves when I hold my prints next to a traditional
> darkroom print the differences are all too depressingly obvious.
> There are colour casts in some tonal ranges.....
>
> So I turned to the Grey Balancer. Several prints later and a lot less
> ink and I still don't appear to be any further on towards a totally
> neutral, Ilford Multigrade looking print.
>
> Even prints printed with black ink only are not neutral, they look
> slightly cyan in the darker tonal ranges.
>
> I phoned Lyson Inks who say a Black and white set of inks will be
> available in the next couple of weeks for the 2100/2200, so is this
> my only answer? I am disappointed if this is the route I have to take
> as I did want to be able to print colour and black and white, but
> black and white is my bread and butter work at the moment.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?

2003-03-30 by Jim Richey

I can't offer much help but I have some observations.

I unboxed a new Epson 2200 this last week which I purchased for making black and white prints. I too am quite interested in neutral prints. One of the first test prints I made was of a 21 step wedge on Enhanced Matte with Matte ink. There was a definite magenta cast to the print, especially in the middle to light tones. I tried printing the same step wedge on the same paper selecting Epson Watercolor paper as the media. This combination produced a much more neutral print with some very slight magenta in the middle tones. This is a sort of "shot in the dark" fix that is easy to try.

As a side observation, which may or may not be relevant, my printer has been using light magenta ink at a faster rate than the other inks. And many ink suppliers are out of stock on the light magenta cartridge.

I am in the process of having custom printer profiles made for three of the papers I use in hopes this will lead me toward more neutral prints, or at least understanding the problem.

Jim Richey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: martinshakeshaft 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:24 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?


  I know from the archive that this subject has been covered before but 
  I have still to see a definitive answer.

  Is it possible to get neutral black and white prints with the Epson
  2100/2200?

  Well here I am one box of paper down and I have still to see a black 
  and white print that I like!

  Straight out of the box I find the black and white prints I am 
  getting are too magenta, especially with the Semi gloss paper samples 
  included with the printer. So I tried Ilford Smooth Gloss. These were 
  a bit better but still not what I wanted. I have surfed around the 
  net for advice, including Redriver and luminous-landscape and whilst 
  the quality improves when I hold my prints next to a traditional 
  darkroom print the differences are all too depressingly obvious. 
  There are colour casts in some tonal ranges.....

  So I turned to the Grey Balancer. Several prints later and a lot less 
  ink and I still don't appear to be any further on towards a totally 
  neutral, Ilford Multigrade looking print.

  Even prints printed with black ink only are not neutral, they look 
  slightly cyan in the darker tonal ranges.

  I phoned Lyson Inks who say a Black and white set of inks will be 
  available in the next couple of weeks for the 2100/2200, so is this 
  my only answer? I am disappointed if this is the route I have to take 
  as I did want to be able to print colour and black and white, but 
  black and white is my bread and butter work at the moment.

  Any help would be appreciated.

  Martin



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?

2003-03-30 by Sam

Hi Jim,
 
How would you go about getting custom profiles made??
 
Sam
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Richey [mailto:j.richey@...] 
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 8:02 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson
2100/2200?


I can't offer much help but I have some observations.

I unboxed a new Epson 2200 this last week which I purchased for making
black and white prints. I too am quite interested in neutral prints. One
of the first test prints I made was of a 21 step wedge on Enhanced Matte
with Matte ink. There was a definite magenta cast to the print,
especially in the middle to light tones. I tried printing the same step
wedge on the same paper selecting Epson Watercolor paper as the media.
This combination produced a much more neutral print with some very
slight magenta in the middle tones. This is a sort of "shot in the dark"
fix that is easy to try.

As a side observation, which may or may not be relevant, my printer has
been using light magenta ink at a faster rate than the other inks. And
many ink suppliers are out of stock on the light magenta cartridge.

I am in the process of having custom printer profiles made for three of
the papers I use in hopes this will lead me toward more neutral prints,
or at least understanding the problem.

Jim Richey
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: martinshakeshaft 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:24 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson
2100/2200?


  I know from the archive that this subject has been covered before but 
  I have still to see a definitive answer.

  Is it possible to get neutral black and white prints with the Epson
  2100/2200?

  Well here I am one box of paper down and I have still to see a black 
  and white print that I like!

  Straight out of the box I find the black and white prints I am 
  getting are too magenta, especially with the Semi gloss paper samples 
  included with the printer. So I tried Ilford Smooth Gloss. These were 
  a bit better but still not what I wanted. I have surfed around the 
  net for advice, including Redriver and luminous-landscape and whilst 
  the quality improves when I hold my prints next to a traditional 
  darkroom print the differences are all too depressingly obvious. 
  There are colour casts in some tonal ranges.....

  So I turned to the Grey Balancer. Several prints later and a lot less 
  ink and I still don't appear to be any further on towards a totally 
  neutral, Ilford Multigrade looking print.

  Even prints printed with black ink only are not neutral, they look 
  slightly cyan in the darker tonal ranges.

  I phoned Lyson Inks who say a Black and white set of inks will be 
  available in the next couple of weeks for the 2100/2200, so is this 
  my only answer? I am disappointed if this is the route I have to take 
  as I did want to be able to print colour and black and white, but 
  black and white is my bread and butter work at the moment.

  Any help would be appreciated.

  Martin



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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
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Re: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?

2003-03-30 by Kip Babington

Where can one find information on Ilford BW inks?  I don't see anything 
that I can identify as such on their regular photo web site.  Are they 
suitable for desktop printers?

Cheers,
Kip

At 3/30/2003 03:51 PM +0200, Julian wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>martin, it seems to me that if you are looking for a multigrade 'look' the
>'best' answer is a 1280 with the new MIS inks and either a curves workflow
>or the new IJC software. Lyson dyes shift colour too much and are not
>neutral from what I've seen. The only neutral dye prints I've seen are from
>Ilford BW inks which you can buy in bulk and use with a cis.
>
>Julian

Re: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?

2003-03-30 by Jim Richey

Hi Sam,
To get custom profiles made for a paper/printer combination do a google search on "custom printer profiles" and several companies will pop up that do them including Jon Cone's InkJetMall and George Lepp. I am sending my test target prints to Uwe Steinmueller at outbackphoto.com. See his profiling service web page at

http://www.outbackphoto.com/profiling_service/profiling.html

There are instructions for downloading and printing the profiling test pages on the web page. Each printer/paper profile costs $70. I cannot tell you at this stage whether it will be worth the money or not. However there are several positive testimonials on the web page.

Jim Richey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sam 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 10:46 AM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?


  Hi Jim,

  How would you go about getting custom profiles made??

  Sam

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jim Richey [mailto:j.richey@...] 
  Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 8:02 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson
  2100/2200?


  I can't offer much help but I have some observations.

  I unboxed a new Epson 2200 this last week which I purchased for making
  black and white prints. I too am quite interested in neutral prints. One
  of the first test prints I made was of a 21 step wedge on Enhanced Matte
  with Matte ink. There was a definite magenta cast to the print,
  especially in the middle to light tones. I tried printing the same step
  wedge on the same paper selecting Epson Watercolor paper as the media.
  This combination produced a much more neutral print with some very
  slight magenta in the middle tones. This is a sort of "shot in the dark"
  fix that is easy to try.

  As a side observation, which may or may not be relevant, my printer has
  been using light magenta ink at a faster rate than the other inks. And
  many ink suppliers are out of stock on the light magenta cartridge.

  I am in the process of having custom printer profiles made for three of
  the papers I use in hopes this will lead me toward more neutral prints,
  or at least understanding the problem.

  Jim Richey
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: martinshakeshaft 
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:24 AM
    Subject: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson
  2100/2200?


    I know from the archive that this subject has been covered before but 
    I have still to see a definitive answer.

    Is it possible to get neutral black and white prints with the Epson
    2100/2200?

    Well here I am one box of paper down and I have still to see a black 
    and white print that I like!

    Straight out of the box I find the black and white prints I am 
    getting are too magenta, especially with the Semi gloss paper samples 
    included with the printer. So I tried Ilford Smooth Gloss. These were 
    a bit better but still not what I wanted. I have surfed around the 
    net for advice, including Redriver and luminous-landscape and whilst 
    the quality improves when I hold my prints next to a traditional 
    darkroom print the differences are all too depressingly obvious. 
    There are colour casts in some tonal ranges.....

    So I turned to the Grey Balancer. Several prints later and a lot less 
    ink and I still don't appear to be any further on towards a totally 
    neutral, Ilford Multigrade looking print.

    Even prints printed with black ink only are not neutral, they look 
    slightly cyan in the darker tonal ranges.

    I phoned Lyson Inks who say a Black and white set of inks will be 
    available in the next couple of weeks for the 2100/2200, so is this 
    my only answer? I am disappointed if this is the route I have to take 
    as I did want to be able to print colour and black and white, but 
    black and white is my bread and butter work at the moment.

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Martin



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  header.
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  same page.

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Re[2]: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?

2003-03-30 by Richard Sintchak

Sunday, March 30, 2003, 8:46:50 AM, Sam wrote:

S> Hi Jim,

S> How would you go about getting custom profiles made??

S> Sam


For the cost of a single profile I use Profile Prism for my 2200
(found here: (<http://www.ddisoftware.com/prism/about.htm>). I've now
created profile for 4-5 papers using both Matte Black and Photo
Black ink and printing from PS and Qimage. If you are not profiling
for each and ever paper the prints can vary even with a "custom"
profile. The results from PP are really best for color but I do see a
marked improvement in the B&W prints too vs. the canned Epson profiles
or the Lepp profiles.  Also, the author of PP is working on a solution
for B&W results and for other inks too I believe.

After trying every 2200 B&W workflow I've found out there I still
think without an expensive RIP neutral B&W is impossible with the
2200. Those who say they are getting neutral B&W I'm convinced have
not printed out a step-wedge and compared it to one they *know* is
neutral.

I love my 2200 and with my Profile Prism profiles am getting
incredible results. But for neutral B&W my 1160 with MIS FS-N inks
continues to be a much better, and cheaper, solution for me.

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

L i n k s  t o  m y  g a l l e r i e s:
http://fujirangefinder.com/document.php?id=246

Re: [Digital BW] Neutral black and white prints with the Epson 2100/2200?

2003-03-31 by Peter Nelson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Richey" 
<j.richey@s...> wrote:
> I can't offer much help but I have some observations.
> 
> I unboxed a new Epson 2200 this last week which I purchased for
> making black and white prints. I too am quite interested in
> neutral prints. One of the first test prints I made was of
> a 21 step wedge on Enhanced Matte with Matte ink. There was
> a definite magenta cast to the print, especially in the middle
> to light tones. I tried printing the same step wedge on the
> same paper selecting Epson Watercolor paper as the media.
> This combination produced a much more neutral print with 
>some very slight magenta in the middle tones. This is a sort 
>of "shot in the dark" fix that is easy to try.

If it still has a magenta cast in any part of the range
it doesn't sound like a "fix".   Anyway, before you get
all excited make sure to view your result under different
lighting conditions.  Remember, the big problem with the
2200 isn't static color casts; it's METAMERISM!   The
best profiles in the world can't fix metamerism because it's
a property of the INK.  Only software which can adjust the
ink usage differently from the stock Epson driver can fix
metamerism.  Several RIPs do this as does a free program for 
the mac that's been making the rounds here.

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.