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2004-01-22 by Cat
I would like to know your opinoins about scanning b&w negatives: is there any difference (except file dimension!) between scanning them in colour, using mixer channel and then print, and scanning in b&w mode, convert to rgb and then print?
2004-01-22 by Paul D. DeRocco
> From: Cat [mailto:ratzmataz2004@...] > > I would like to know your opinoins about scanning b&w negatives: is > there any difference (except file dimension!) between scanning them > in colour, using mixer channel and then print, and scanning in b&w > mode, convert to rgb and then print? No. There's no color information at all in B&W negatives. Playing with the Channel Mixer knobs (keeping their sum equal to 100) will have no effect on the image, other than possibly to increase the noise, so you might as well let the scanner combine the R, G and B for you. -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul mailto:pderocco@...
2004-01-22 by Mark Hahn
see this article: http://www.kcbx.net/~mhd/2photo/digital/colbw.htm there are differences in the color channel information from a rgb scan of a b&w negative... are they useful??? maybe, it probably depends on your scanner... if one channel is noiser than another channel mixing that down would help your image quality... and I can't image how equal mixing would increase noise... but again, maybe for some scanners... I scan directly into 16-bit greyscale format myself though... mark --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@i...> wrote: > > From: Cat [mailto:ratzmataz2004@y...] > > > > I would like to know your opinoins about scanning b&w negatives: is > > there any difference (except file dimension!) between scanning them > > in colour, using mixer channel and then print, and scanning in b&w > > mode, convert to rgb and then print? > > No. There's no color information at all in B&W negatives. Playing with the > Channel Mixer knobs (keeping their sum equal to 100) will have no effect on > the image, other than possibly to increase the noise, so you might as well
> let the scanner combine the R, G and B for you. > > -- > > Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco > Paul mailto:pderocco@i...
2004-01-22 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service
Paul D. derrick wrote: >No. There's no color information at all in B&W negatives. Playing with the >Channel Mixer knobs (keeping their sum equal to 100) will have no effect on >the image, other than possibly to increase the noise, so you might as well >let the scanner combine the R, G and B for you. > > Well, maybe... Some emulsions might do better under certain illuminating colors. AND.. One might find that running noise reduction software on each channel independently COULD result in a cleaner final image than running it on the merged greyscale. In fact, one might create profiles for each channel in Neat Image or Noise Ninja.. Of course, that could also be a MAJOR workflow pain in the butt.. Keith Krebs
2004-01-22 by hogarth
Personally, I scan in 16bit grayscale, and print in 16bit grayscale. When you scan a B&W negative in RGB, you pickup the color of the base, whatever stains there are, etc. But is this information, or just more data? My experiments convinced me that the extra data is meaningless. Of course, YMMV, and plenty of people will argue the opposite. On Thu, 2004-01-22 at 07:29, Cat wrote: > I would like to know your opinoins about scanning b&w negatives: is > there any difference (except file dimension!) between scanning them > in colour, using mixer channel and then print, and scanning in b&w > mode, convert to rgb and then print? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-01-22 by Austin Franklin
Cat, > I would like to know your opinoins about scanning b&w negatives: is > there any difference (except file dimension!) between scanning them > in colour, using mixer channel and then print, and scanning in b&w > mode, convert to rgb and then print? One thing to keep in mind is that almost every scanner scans B&W in RGB anyway, and does a conversion in the scanner, with a canned RGB mix. So, technically, if you can get a better "mix" than the scanner, you'll be better off doing the "mix" outside of the scanner. This is, of course, scanner dependant...as each different make/model of scanner can have differing values for their "mix". The best suggestion is simply to try both on your scanner, and see which works best for you. My particular scanner scans B&W as B&W (using a neutral density filter), so it gives better results than if I scan them in RGB. Regards, Austin
2004-01-22 by Austin Franklin
Paul, > so you > might as well > let the scanner combine the R, G and B for you. As always, that depends on the scanner. The red channel is typically, by far, the "fuzziest" channel...so minimizing the amount of red in the mix can in fact give you significantly sharper scans...same with blue, it is sometimes more fuzzy than green. Regards, Austin
2004-01-22 by Paul D. DeRocco
> From: Editor P.O.V. Image Service [mailto:editor@...] > > AND.. One might find that running noise reduction software on each > channel independently COULD result in a cleaner final image than > running it on the merged greyscale. In fact, one might create profiles > for each channel in Neat Image or Noise Ninja.. If the different channels have different amounts of noise by more than a few db, then the optimum would be to take the best channel and chuck the other two. If they're close to each other in noise level, then averaging would help. It's possible that different channels would have different amounts of noise, but I would hope that the engineers who designed the scanner would have observed this, and dealt with it in their B&W algorithm. But perhaps I give them too much credit. -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul mailto:pderocco@...
2004-01-22 by Paul D. DeRocco
> From: Austin Franklin [mailto:darkroom@...] > > As always, that depends on the scanner. The red channel is typically, by > far, the "fuzziest" channel...so minimizing the amount of red in > the mix can > in fact give you significantly sharper scans...same with blue, it is > sometimes more fuzzy than green. That's not surprising, so if it's true for a particular scanner, I would hope that the scanner designers would simply use the green channel when scanning B&W. -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul mailto:pderocco@...
2004-01-22 by Bill Morse
on 1/22/04 12:25 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote: >> > From: Cat [mailto:ratzmataz2004@...] >> > >> > I would like to know your opinoins about scanning b&w negatives: is >> > there any difference (except file dimension!) between scanning them >> > in colour, using mixer channel and then print, and scanning in b&w >> > mode, convert to rgb and then print? > > No. There's no color information at all in B&W negatives. Playing with the > Channel Mixer knobs (keeping their sum equal to 100) will have no effect on > the image, other than possibly to increase the noise, so you might as well > let the scanner combine the R, G and B for you. >>>>>>>>> Hi Paul- This is a curious statement. If you look at the individual channels of an RGB scan of a B&W neg or print, you will see subtle but potentially significant variations in tonality. In addition, as Austin has said, one channel often will be more or less fuzzy, or the grain detail may be more or less pronounced. Finally, if there are any defects in the original (staining, scratches, etc.), they will often be more or less pronounced in the different channels. One question- what leads you to say that using the channel mixer can ³increase the noise² of the image? Regards Bill Morse PhotoProspect 450 Harrison Ave. Suite 221 Boston, MA 02118 (617) 868-7642 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-01-22 by Eddy
Austin, I have a question, if you don't mind: When you say, "in the scanner," I assume you are referring to the scanner driver, right? So if I use Vuescan to drive my Polaroid SS4000, it is Vuescan that is doing the "canned RGB mix," right? Thanks, --Eddy McDonald --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@i...> wrote: > One thing to keep in mind is that almost every scanner scans B&W in RGB > anyway, and does a conversion in the scanner, with a canned RGB mix. So, > technically, if you can get a better "mix" than the scanner, you'll be > better off doing the "mix" outside of the scanner. This is, of course, > scanner dependant...as each different make/model of scanner can have > differing values for their "mix".
2004-01-23 by Paul D. DeRocco
> From: Bill Morse [mailto:willym@...] > > This is a curious statement. If you look at the individual channels of an > RGB scan of a B&W neg or print, you will see subtle but potentially > significant variations in tonality. If there are significant differences in tonality among the three channels, then the image of the negative won't look monochromatic--you'll see actual colors in it. I've never scanned a B&W negative, but I've certainly looked at plenty, and I've never seen any sort of color cast in them. > In addition, as Austin has said, one > channel often will be more or less fuzzy, or the grain detail may > be more or less pronounced. My point was that that's probably the sort of thing that a good engineer designing a scanner would have figured out, and handled automatically when scanning B&W negs. But I could be crediting engineers with too much intelligence. > Finally, if there are any defects in the original > (staining, scratches, etc.), they will often be more or less pronounced in > the different channels. That's a good point. > One question- what leads you to say that using the channel mixer can > \ufffdincrease the noise\ufffd of the image? Only if different channels have different amount of noise, and you emphasize or fail to de-emphasize the noisier channels. For instance, if the green channel is quieter than the other two, and you select 33,33,33 instead of 0,100,0, you've got more noise than necessary. -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul mailto:pderocco@...
> > Regards > > > Bill Morse > PhotoProspect > 450 Harrison Ave. Suite 221 > Boston, MA 02118 > (617) 868-7642 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by > visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier > messages to keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed > from the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of > digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts > may be removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the > group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and > Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT > THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP > SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, > SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT > LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR > OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE > INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR > DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER > RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >
2004-01-23 by Bill Morse
Hi Paul- When you scan large numbers of negatives, and in particular older negatives, you learn to expect subtle differences in the channels, from many different sources, and to make adjustments accordingly. I have heard, but cannot personally confirm, that PS as well as many scanning programs over-emphasize the red channel over the green and blue ones, supposedly to ³better render² (read emphasize) Caucasian skin tones. I seem to remember something like 50 red, 30 green, and 20 blue (don¹t quote me on these exactly! ;^) In my experience, most RGB scans of a B&W source will show greater noise and more emphasized grain in the red and blue channels, so I typically start with an emphasis on the green channel, say 30 red, 45 green, and 25 blue. I find that as a starting point, this will give me less noise and minimal grain, as opposed even to using 100% green. Lastly, don¹t forget that not using the channel mixer in PS does not mean that the channels are not being mixed. It only means that you are controlling the results, rather than accepting the channel mixing that PS or the scanning software is performing. Regards, Bill Morse PhotoProspect 450 Harrison Ave. Suite 221 Boston, MA 02118 (617) 868-7642 on 1/22/04 7:04 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote: >> > From: Bill Morse [mailto:willym@...] >> > >> > This is a curious statement. If you look at the individual channels of an >> > RGB scan of a B&W neg or print, you will see subtle but potentially >> > significant variations in tonality. > > If there are significant differences in tonality among the three channels, > then the image of the negative won't look monochromatic--you'll see actual > colors in it. I've never scanned a B&W negative, but I've certainly looked > at plenty, and I've never seen any sort of color cast in them. > >> > In addition, as Austin has said, one >> > channel often will be more or less fuzzy, or the grain detail may >> > be more or less pronounced. > > My point was that that's probably the sort of thing that a good engineer > designing a scanner would have figured out, and handled automatically when > scanning B&W negs. But I could be crediting engineers with too much > intelligence. > >> > Finally, if there are any defects in the original >> > (staining, scratches, etc.), they will often be more or less pronounced in >> > the different channels. > > That's a good point. > >> > One question- what leads you to say that using the channel mixer can >> > ³increase the noise² of the image? > > Only if different channels have different amount of noise, and you emphasize > or fail to de-emphasize the noisier channels. For instance, if the green > channel is quieter than the other two, and you select 33,33,33 instead of > 0,100,0, you've got more noise than necessary. > > -- > > Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco > Paul mailto:pderocco@... > >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > >> > Bill Morse >> > PhotoProspect >> > 450 Harrison Ave. Suite 221 >> > Boston, MA 02118 >> > (617) 868-7642 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other >> > resources as they are often being updated. >> > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> > >> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you >> > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by >> > visiting this same page. >> > >> > Please follow these basic guidelines: >> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier >> > messages to keep them short. >> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed >> > from the membership without notice. >> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of >> > digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts >> > may be removed from the membership. >> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules >> > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the >> > group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and >> > Guidelines in the Files section: >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ >> > >> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, >> > THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT >> > THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP >> > SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, >> > SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT >> > LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR >> > OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF >> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE >> > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE >> > INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) >> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR >> > DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE >> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER >> > RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > To visit your group on the web, go to: >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ >> > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> > >> > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership > without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the > membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and > Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND > MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ > * > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsub > scribe> > * > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-01-23 by Paul D. DeRocco
> From: Bill Morse [mailto:willym@...] > > When you scan large numbers of negatives, and in particular older > negatives, > you learn to expect subtle differences in the channels, from many > different > sources, and to make adjustments accordingly. That may be true, but I would expect that on a particular negative, the tonal curve would be the same everywhere, so could be corrected to whatever you want with a single global Curve. But I defer to your experience. I've just never seen anything in a B&W neg that looked like even faint color. It's been years, though. > I have heard, but cannot personally confirm, that PS as well as many > scanning programs over-emphasize the red channel over the green and blue > ones, supposedly to \ufffdbetter render\ufffd (read emphasize) Caucasian skin tones. > I seem to remember something like 50 red, 30 green, and 20 blue > (don\ufffdt quote me on these exactly! ;^) I tested it using a gamma=1 color space, and Image->Mode->Grayscale weighs them 80, 160 and 15 (out of 255), so it's green that gets the strongest emphasis. However, the default settings in Channel Mixer are 100,0,0, which I suspect is to make blue skies dark. > In my experience, most RGB scans of a B&W source will show > greater noise and > more emphasized grain in the red and blue channels, so I typically start > with an emphasis on the green channel, say 30 red, 45 green, and > 25 blue. I > find that as a starting point, this will give me less noise and minimal > grain, as opposed even to using 100% green. Yes, I'd expect green to be quieter, because it captures more light energy. I wonder why you get more noise if you go to 0,100,0. Or is some of the noise from film grain, as opposed to CCD noise? -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul mailto:pderocco@...
2004-01-23 by Austin Franklin
Hi Bill, > I have heard, but cannot personally confirm, that PS as well as many > scanning programs over-emphasize the red channel over the green and blue > ones, supposedly to \ufffdbetter render\ufffd (read emphasize) Caucasian skin tones. > I seem to remember something like 50 red, 30 green, and 20 blue > (don\ufffdt quote > me on these exactly! ;^) Er, hum...I believe that's for color to B&W conversion...not for an RGB scan of a B&W negative...there are no "Caucasian skin tones" in a B&W negative that red would emphasize ;-) Regards, Austin
2004-01-23 by Austin Franklin
Hi Eddy, > Austin, I have a question, if you don't mind: > When you say, "in the scanner," I assume you are referring to the > scanner driver, right? Well, the actual conversion may happen physically IN the scanner it self, or the driver may take the three channels, and do it on the host computer...either works for my point, which is that 1) B&W is actually scanned as RGB, as that is all the scanner CAN do, unless you have a Leafscan, and 2) that it uses a "canned" mix, that you can't adjust, typically. > So if I use Vuescan to drive my Polaroid > SS4000, it is Vuescan that is doing the "canned RGB mix," right? Unfortunately, I don't know Vuescan at all, so I can't say anything about it. There are those far more versed in Vuescan than I, in fact, I rarely even spell it right ;-) Regards, Austin
2004-01-23 by Tom Baker
My Nikon 8000, using the Nikon software, is scanning in RGB and converting. You can set the parameters for RGB on an b&w neg and you get a slightly colored preview. By just clicking the b&w instead of RGB output puts it in b&w and takes away the color cast. I guess it's possible that it would make the scanner behave differently, but it sure doesn't seem that way. Tom Baker Austin Franklin <darkroom@...> wrote: Hi Eddy, > Austin, I have a question, if you don't mind: > When you say, "in the scanner," I assume you are referring to the > scanner driver, right? Well, the actual conversion may happen physically IN the scanner it self, or the driver may take the three channels, and do it on the host computer...either works for my point, which is that 1) B&W is actually scanned as RGB, as that is all the scanner CAN do, unless you have a Leafscan, and 2) that it uses a "canned" mix, that you can't adjust, typically. > So if I use Vuescan to drive my Polaroid > SS4000, it is Vuescan that is doing the "canned RGB mix," right? Unfortunately, I don't know Vuescan at all, so I can't say anything about it. There are those far more versed in Vuescan than I, in fact, I rarely even spell it right ;-) Regards, Austin Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-01-23 by Bill Morse
Right, I was referring to the rendering of Caucasian skin tones in a B&W negative, scanned in RGB, then converted to greyscale Bill. on 1/22/04 9:34 PM, Austin Franklin wrote: > Hi Bill, > >> > I have heard, but cannot personally confirm, that PS as well as many >> > scanning programs over-emphasize the red channel over the green and blue >> > ones, supposedly to ³better render² (read emphasize) Caucasian skin tones. >> > I seem to remember something like 50 red, 30 green, and 20 blue >> > (don¹t quote >> > me on these exactly! ;^) > > Er, hum...I believe that's for color to B&W conversion...not for an RGB scan > of a B&W negative...there are no "Caucasian skin tones" in a B&W negative > that red would emphasize ;-) > > Regards, > > Austin > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership > without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the > membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and > Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND > MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cbl027u/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D=egroupwe > b/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1074911718/A=1945638/R=0/*http://www.netflix.com/Default > ?mqso=60178383&partid=4116732> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ > * > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsub > scribe> > * > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-01-23 by Eddy
Right, I understand your point about the lack of control over the "mix." What I was wondering was whether Vuescan, or Silverfast, or some other driver software, might have a better "mix" or if the "mix" was inherent to the scanner itself. --Eddy --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@i...> wrote: > Hi Eddy, > > > Austin, I have a question, if you don't mind: > > When you say, "in the scanner," I assume you are referring to the > > scanner driver, right? > > Well, the actual conversion may happen physically IN the scanner it self, or > the driver may take the three channels, and do it on the host > computer...either works for my point, which is that 1) B&W is actually
> scanned as RGB, as that is all the scanner CAN do, unless you have a > Leafscan, and 2) that it uses a "canned" mix, that you can't adjust, > typically. >
2004-01-23 by Austin Franklin
Hi Bill, I'm skeptical that there is any need for "particular" color information to "better render Caucasian skin tones" when scanning B&W negatives. Perhaps you, or someone, could explain what this color information is? I'm all ears ;-) Regards, Austin
> Right, I was referring to the rendering of Caucasian skin tones in a B&W > negative, scanned in RGB, then converted to greyscale > > Bill. > > on 1/22/04 9:34 PM, Austin Franklin wrote: > > > Hi Bill, > > > >> > I have heard, but cannot personally confirm, that PS as well as many > >> > scanning programs over-emphasize the red channel over the > green and blue > >> > ones, supposedly to \ufffdbetter render\ufffd (read emphasize) > Caucasian skin tones. > >> > I seem to remember something like 50 red, 30 green, and 20 blue > >> > (don\ufffdt quote > >> > me on these exactly! ;^) > > > > Er, hum...I believe that's for color to B&W conversion...not > for an RGB scan > > of a B&W negative...there are no "Caucasian skin tones" in a > B&W negative > > that red would emphasize ;-) > > > > Regards, > > > > Austin > > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > resources as > > they are often being updated. > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by > visiting this same > > page. > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier > messages to keep > > them short. > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from > the membership > > without notice. > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > removed from the > > membership. > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the > group Owner and > > Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the > Files section: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > > YAHOO! 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Users who persistently make off-topic posts > may be removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the > group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and > Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO! 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2004-01-23 by Austin Franklin
Hi Eddy, Entirely scanner/software dependant. That is why it may be better to simply scan in RGB and do the conversion in PS, where I believe you can change the mix (though they offer a canned one as well, but that is for conversion from a color image to a B&W image). Regards, Austin
> -----Original Message----- > From: Eddy [mailto:eddy@...] > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 5:19 AM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Scanning b&w negatives > > > Right, I understand your point about the lack of control over > the "mix." What I was wondering was whether Vuescan, or Silverfast, > or some other driver software, might have a better "mix" or if > the "mix" was inherent to the scanner itself. > > --Eddy > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Austin > Franklin" <darkroom@i...> wrote: > > Hi Eddy, > > > > > Austin, I have a question, if you don't mind: > > > When you say, "in the scanner," I assume you are referring to the > > > scanner driver, right? > > > > Well, the actual conversion may happen physically IN the scanner it > self, or > > the driver may take the three channels, and do it on the host > > computer...either works for my point, which is that 1) B&W is > actually > > scanned as RGB, as that is all the scanner CAN do, unless you have a > > Leafscan, and 2) that it uses a "canned" mix, that you can't adjust, > > typically. > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by > visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier > messages to keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed > from the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of > digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts > may be removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the > group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and > Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT > THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP > SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, > SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT > LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR > OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE > INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR > DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER > RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >
2004-01-23 by Bill Morse
Hi Austin- It's not so complicated, really, although I think I may have unintentionally confused things (the first time, really, I swear!! ;^) The "better rendering of skin tones" actually refers to converting color images to B&W, which is what I believe the PS convert to greyscale channel mix is based on. In this case, we are using the same canned channel mix to go from our RGB scan of a B&W image to a GS file, which, as you and others have pointed out, may not give the best results as a custom mix. There, I've made it all clear, right? ;^) Regards, Bill on 1/23/04 9:10 AM, Austin Franklin wrote:
> Hi Bill, > > I'm skeptical that there is any need for "particular" color information to > "better render Caucasian skin tones" when scanning B&W negatives. Perhaps > you, or someone, could explain what this color information is? I'm all ears > ;-) > > Regards, > > Austin > >> Right, I was referring to the rendering of Caucasian skin tones in a B&W >> negative, scanned in RGB, then converted to greyscale >> >> Bill. >> >> on 1/22/04 9:34 PM, Austin Franklin wrote: >> >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>>>> I have heard, but cannot personally confirm, that PS as well as many >>>>> scanning programs over-emphasize the red channel over the >> green and blue >>>>> ones, supposedly to ³better render² (read emphasize) >> Caucasian skin tones. >>>>> I seem to remember something like 50 red, 30 green, and 20 blue >>>>> (don¹t quote >>>>> me on these exactly! ;^) >>> >>> Er, hum...I believe that's for color to B&W conversion...not >> for an RGB scan >>> of a B&W negative...there are no "Caucasian skin tones" in a >> B&W negative >>> that red would emphasize ;-) >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Austin >>> >>> >>> >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other >> resources as >>> they are often being updated. >>> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >>> >>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to >>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by >> visiting this same >>> page. >>> >>> Please follow these basic guidelines: >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier >> messages to keep >>> them short. >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. >>> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from >> the membership >>> without notice. >>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W >>> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be >> removed from the >>> membership. >>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and >>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the >> group Owner and >>> Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the >> Files section: >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ >>> >>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT >>> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND >>> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE >> LIABLE TO YOU >>> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR >> EXEMPLARY >>> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF >> PROFITS, GOODWILL, >>> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND >> MODERATORS OF >>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE >> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH >>> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE >> THE DIGITAL BW, >>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR >>> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD >> PARTY ON THE >>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER >> RELATING TO THE >>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yahoo! 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Users who persistently make off-topic posts >> may be removed from the membership. >> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules >> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the >> group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and >> Guidelines in the Files section: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ >> >> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, >> THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT >> THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP >> SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, >> SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT >> LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR >> OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE >> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE >> INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) >> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR >> DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER >> RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. >> >> >> Yahoo! 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2004-01-24 by Austin Franklin
Hi Bob...er, Bill ;-) > It's not so complicated, really, although I think I may have > unintentionally > confused things (the first time, really, I swear!! ;^) Phew! > The "better rendering of skin tones" actually refers to converting color > images to B&W, OK, that's what I thought you were talking about from the content, but I got the impression you believed it worked converting B&W images scanned in RGB as well, source of my confusion. > which is what I believe the PS convert to greyscale channel > mix is based on. In this case, we are using the same canned > channel mix to > go from our RGB scan of a B&W image to a GS file, which, as you and others > have pointed out, may not give the best results as a custom mix. Ah, why would you do that? The mix is done for a different purpose...as you said, converting color to B&W...not converting a color scan of a B&W to B&W ;-) > There, I've made it all clear, right? ;^) Yep, sounds like we're on the same page. Regards, Austin
2004-01-24 by Dennis W. Manasco
At 7:27 pm -0500 1/22/04, Bill Morse wrote: >I have heard, but cannot personally confirm, that PS as well as many >scanning programs over-emphasize the red channel over the green and >blue ones, supposedly to "better render" (read emphasize) Caucasian >skin tones. I seem to remember something like 50 red, 30 green, and >20 blue (don't quote me on these exactly! ;^) Bill -- As you've noted later in this thread you were referring to translating color scans to B&W using canned vs. custom conversions. However, I thought that comment on this might still be useful for people who are trying to produce optimal B&W portraiture from color scans. I suspect that you incorrectly remembered your ratios and that the numbers that Paul gives: At 4:44 pm -0800 1/22/04, Paul D. DeRocco wrote: >I tested it using a gamma=1 color space, and Image->Mode->Grayscale >weighs them 80, 160 and 15 (out of 255), so it's green that gets the >strongest emphasis. (which translate to approximately 31.37 red, 62.75 green, 5.88 blue) are more accurate. The reason I make this assertion is that it used to be so common as to be almost standard to use a green filter when doing B&W portraiture. (I'm sorry, but I do not remember the filter number; it was one of the standard Kodak filters.) I think that experimenting with a strong green channel is probably still the best idea when converting color portraiture to B&W. The green filter didn't so much "better render Caucasian skin tones" as provide a pleasing rendering of the skin tones while washing out pimples and blotchiness. For a more high-contrast look (pseudo Alfred Steiglitz?) I'd up the blue at the expense of (primarily) the red. Paul also said: >However, the default settings in Channel Mixer are 100,0,0, which I >suspect is to make blue skies dark. This would probably be a good starting point for translating color landscapes into striking B&W, but I think that it would be an absolute disaster if you had any Caucasians in the picture. It would probably be a bad idea when rendering almost any skin tone. Skin tones run a huge gamut, from the blue-black to the chocolate-brown, from the gold-tanned to the pinkish-red, from the stark-white to the neon-red and the purplish-red, from the sallow yellow to the neon bronze, to the many hues that are as far beyond dichotomy as they are from descriptive quantization. Nevertheless, if I might make a few over-generalizations, based on cultural generalities and meaning no offence to anyone: For Asians I would still leave the green predominate and play with the blue at the expense of both the red and the green. For Blacks I would watch what happens when starting from the same point and adding a healthy dose of the red channel while using the blue to trim the contrast. If the skin tone is very dark the blue channel might be used to significant effect. -=-Dennis .
2004-01-24 by Austin Franklin
Hi Dennis, > The reason I make this assertion is that it used to be so common as > to be almost standard to use a green filter when doing B&W > portraiture. (I'm sorry, but I do not remember the filter number; it > was one of the standard Kodak filters.) I believe that the reason the green channel is given the highest weight when converting from color to B&W is it simply carries the most information (middle of the spectrum), and it is the cleanest channel (the least bloom and smear of a CCD sensor). I don't believe the reasons for using it are not related at all to using a green filter for B&W portraiture (which I, personally, never heard of...but I never did any B&W portraiture ;-). Regards, Austin
2004-01-25 by Dennis W. Manasco
At 8:18 am -0500 1/24/04, Austin Franklin wrote: > > The reason I make this assertion is that it used to be so common as >> to be almost standard to use a green filter when doing B&W >> portraiture. (I'm sorry, but I do not remember the filter number; it >> was one of the standard Kodak filters.) > >I believe that the reason the green channel is given the highest weight when >converting from color to B&W is it simply carries the most information >(middle of the spectrum), and it is the cleanest channel (the least bloom >and smear of a CCD sensor). I don't believe the reasons for using it are >not related at all to using a green filter for B&W portraiture (which I, >personally, never heard of...but I never did any B&W portraiture ;-). Austin -- You _may_ be right about why it was chosen for converting scans. But as for using a green filter for B&W portraiture you might look at: <http://www.schneideroptics.com/filters/filters_for_still_photography/black_&_white/> and scroll down to the B+W 061 green [13] filter. Apparently Schneider still makes this filter and I am certain several others do as well, though I believe Kodak has sold their filter line to someone else. Schneider's description of using the 061/Kodak 13 for portraiture is...umm...diplomatic. It was used for pimple and blotchiness reduction. (The reason that they state "with high-speed film" is the filter factor: 3.0.) By the way: The part of the description about using it for enhancing subtle differences in green tones when shooting black and white is dead on. High-summer forest and meadow scenes shot on Pan-X (a sorely missed old friend) or better through a K13 and properly printed will take your breath away -- the eye and the brain don't begin to notice as many tonal variations in grass and canopy as you can get this way. Best wishes, -=-Dennis
2004-01-25 by islandbuck2
Dennis, a green filter will emphasize "pimples and blotches". Those skin defects tend to be reddish and a green filter will make then darker. Green filters in portraiture are usually used for men in direct sunlight. I gives then a more sun tanned swarthy look. To smooth out women's skin one would usually use a yellow filter. Remember complementary colors are used to darken. Yellow #15 filter/blue sky ect... --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis W. Manasco" <dmanasco@i...> wrote: > At 8:18 am -0500 1/24/04, Austin Franklin wrote: > > > > The reason I make this assertion is that it used to be so common as > >> to be almost standard to use a green filter when doing B&W > >> portraiture. (I'm sorry, but I do not remember the filter number; it > >> was one of the standard Kodak filters.) > > > >I believe that the reason the green channel is given the highest weight when > >converting from color to B&W is it simply carries the most information > >(middle of the spectrum), and it is the cleanest channel (the least bloom > >and smear of a CCD sensor). I don't believe the reasons for using it are > >not related at all to using a green filter for B&W portraiture (which I, > >personally, never heard of...but I never did any B&W portraiture ;- ). > > > Austin -- > > You _may_ be right about why it was chosen for converting scans. But > as for using a green filter for B&W portraiture you might look at: > > <http://www.schneideroptics.com/filters/filters_for_still_photography/ black_&_white/> > > and scroll down to the B+W 061 green [13] filter. > > Apparently Schneider still makes this filter and I am certain several > others do as well, though I believe Kodak has sold their filter line > to someone else. > > Schneider's description of using the 061/Kodak 13 for portraiture > is...umm...diplomatic. It was used for pimple and blotchiness > reduction. (The reason that they state "with high-speed film" is the > filter factor: 3.0.) > > By the way: The part of the description about using it for enhancing > subtle differences in green tones when shooting black and white is > dead on. High-summer forest and meadow scenes shot on Pan-X (a sorely > missed old friend) or better through a K13 and properly printed will > take your breath away -- the eye and the brain don't begin to notice > as many tonal variations in grass and canopy as you can get this way.
> > > Best wishes, > > -=-Dennis
2004-01-25 by Mark Hahn
I don't know that many people actually used it as a "portraiture" filter, but aside from the predictable effects on foliage, it gave a similar effect to a yellow filter for clouds while maintaining "realistic" skin tones... at the time, it was also a somewhat controversial filter for b&w enthusiasts... :) mark ... > >not related at all to using a green filter for B&W portraiture (which I, > >personally, never heard of...but I never did any B&W portraiture ;- ). ...
2004-01-26 by Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: islandbuck2 [mailto:islandbuck@...] Sent: 25 January 2004 12:44 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Scanning b&w negatives smooth out women's skin one would usually use a yellow filter. Or red..... Richard --- [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are currently using to read this email. ]
2004-01-26 by Austin Franklin
> smooth out women's skin one would usually use a yellow filter. > > Or red..... > > Richard Hi Richard, That sounds better, as I believe green enhances contrast (and is typically used for "enhancing" clouds)...so it would probably not be good for reducing the visibility of skin defects...of course, Vaseline on the lense would probably be better, or a stocking over the enlarging lense...or a host of other standard tricks to do this. Regards, Austin