Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-15 by Diane Fields

Have you tried softproofing in PS and adjusting tonality/contrast?  

Diane
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: glovinger 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 8:12 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200




  I installed the QTR rip yesterday for my Epson 2200 and made several 
  test prints. So far I like the color tones, but I am very unhappy
  with the flatness of my prints. I actually prefer the green colorcast I
  get without the rip because of the wonderful detail and subtle tones 
  the printer can produce.
  What do you all consider the best rip on the market for the 2200? I 
  guess I need to spend more than $50.- to get the best of both worlds.








  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-15 by Steve Kale

$50 is all you need spend.  QTR is really very good at what it does.  You
just need to understand how to use it best.  Here's the longer answer.

First understand that you can't, generally speaking, print as dark as you
can see on screen and that paper isn't generally as white.  That is, the
dynamic range of today's paper with today's inks is relatively narrow.  Not
bad but narrow.  OK that first bit was easy.

Now QTR is set up to print an even gradation L* (Lab's L) from its darkest
black to paper white.  If it could generate perfect black and perfect white
then you could print the Lab space in totality with an even gradation of L*
and have a nice "gamma" or curvature in density from pure black to pure
white.  But as noted above we can't get perfect black or perfect white.   If
the best black is really "light black" and the best white is "almost white"
and there is still a straight line of L* between the two then the gamma or
contrast must be less.  Hence, out-of-the-box the prints look a little
"flat" because the black isn't as good as on screen and the gamma or
contrast is less.  

OK so what do we do about it?  Two solutions.  First, we could introduce an
arbitrary S curve to increase image contrast so that when it is printed we
have a better look. Secondly, we could use some of the tools available to us
to do that for us.  In either case, it is useful to see before we print the
result of either action.

The second of the two is more effective, easier and more readily previewed
or soft proofed.  Roy has designed two ICC profiles, QTR Gray Matte Paper
and QTR Gray Photo Paper, which are in essence general profiles for the two
types of media we print to.  With these you can use two Photoshop's ability
to convert between ICC profiles and to preview a file in another colour
space.  So at the time of printing you can use Photoshop to convert your
image to the print space using the perceptual intent and black point
compensation.  This in effect automates the s curve piece.  Furthermore,
prior to printing you can preview how the file will look once converted to
the print space (matte or photo), ie see how it will look when printed.  Use
View -> Proof Setup -> Custom  to set up the soft proof.  Convert the
document to the print space prior to printing (save a preprint master
first!).  The workflow for last bit is slightly different depending on
whether you are on a Mac or PC.

The ICC profiles can be found here:

http://homepage.mac.com/royharrington/FileSharing2.html

under grayspaceXYZv2.zip

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Diane Fields <picnic@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:38:47 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200
> 
> 
> Have you tried softproofing in PS and adjusting tonality/contrast?
> 
> Diane
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: glovinger
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 8:12 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   I installed the QTR rip yesterday for my Epson 2200 and made several
>   test prints. So far I like the color tones, but I am very unhappy
>   with the flatness of my prints. I actually prefer the green colorcast I
>   get without the rip because of the wonderful detail and subtle tones
>   the printer can produce.
>   What do you all consider the best rip on the market for the 2200? I
>   guess I need to spend more than $50.- to get the best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>       
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND
> „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-15 by Djon

Diane, you're too gentle...  digital tech encourages us to think
everything is done for us automatically, plug-and-play...allows us to 
get lazy and assume we don't need to acquire and apply fundamental
non-digital photo skills.

Contrast/brightness is beautifully adjustable visually in Photoshop
and Elements and, partially, in the Gamma setting of QTRgui.  

Example: The little switch between Epson OEM Photo Black and Matte
Black makes a big difference in some images and on some papers, even
though both may be "acceptable", considering the workarounds some
people do without QTR or Black Only to get B&W. Important, visual, not
at all digital. People without traditional photo backgrounds probably
don't even notice.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Fields"
<picnic@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Have you tried softproofing in PS and adjusting tonality/contrast?  
> 
> Diane

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-15 by Steve Kale

> From: Djon <westsidemaurice@...>

> 
> 
> Diane, you're too gentle...  digital tech encourages us to think
> everything is done for us automatically, plug-and-play...allows us to
> get lazy and assume we don't need to acquire and apply fundamental
> non-digital photo skills.

No it doesn't.  That really is a gross generalisation.  There is nothing
stated in the original question that would lead anyone to infer that the
image isn't a good one and that the issue at hand is merely a lack of
understanding of how, in the digital domain, to technically realise the best
print of the image. There is nothing in the original post to say that the
poster doesn't know how to workup an image in Photoshop.  Furthermore, there
is in fact nothing to infer that the person posing the question hasn't
mastered other digital printing workflows.  You on the other hand imply,
rudely, that the poster was lazy and could not apply "fundamental
non-digital photo skills".

The rest of this is just waffle and completely unhelpful to the person who
asked the question.  If you have no constructive advice to add don't post.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Contrast/brightness is beautifully adjustable visually in Photoshop
> and Elements and, partially, in the Gamma setting of QTRgui.
> 
> Example: The little switch between Epson OEM Photo Black and Matte
> Black makes a big difference in some images and on some papers, even
> though both may be "acceptable", considering the workarounds some
> people do without QTR or Black Only to get B&W. Important, visual, not
> at all digital. People without traditional photo backgrounds probably
> don't even notice.
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-15 by B. Ellis

I think you're giving up too easily. QTR is perfectly capable of producing
excellent black and white prints with a more-than-adequate density range. If
it could only produce flat prints nobody would be using it.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "glovinger" <lovinger@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 8:12 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200





I installed the QTR rip yesterday for my Epson 2200 and made several
test prints. So far I like the color tones, but I am very unhappy
with the flatness of my prints. I actually prefer the green colorcast I
get without the rip because of the wonderful detail and subtle tones
the printer can produce.
What do you all consider the best rip on the market for the 2200? I
guess I need to spend more than $50.- to get the best of both worlds.









Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-16 by john dean

No, No, you're doing something very wrong. I've set up several 2200's with 
QTR both for my professional photographer friends as well as the students 
where I teach. In all cases the owners of the 2200 were blown away by the 
versitility and beauty of their output. We have only used it with matte black 
though. Really, it works extremely well, just like on my 9600. No difference in 
capability imho between this rip for the average user, and much more 
expensive options. You need to spend more time with it and follow 
instructions carefully in the beginning.

John


> 
> I installed the QTR rip yesterday for my Epson 2200 and made several
> test prints. So far I like the color tones, but I am very unhappy
> with the flatness of my prints. I actually prefer the green colorcast I
> get without the rip because of the wonderful detail and subtle tones
> the printer can produce.
> What do you all consider the best rip on the market for the 2200? I
> guess I need to spend more than $50.- to get the best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL 
NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  
"OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR 
THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS 
OR CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-16 by outlaw07480

Reading this entire thread I just can't help but wonder how Weston 
got by with just three trays and a light blub.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> $50 is all you need spend.  QTR is really very good at what it 
does.  You
> just need to understand how to use it best.  Here's the longer 
answer.
> 
> First understand that you can't, generally speaking, print as dark 
as you
> can see on screen and that paper isn't generally as white.  That 
is, the
> dynamic range of today's paper with today's inks is relatively 
narrow.  Not
> bad but narrow.  OK that first bit was easy.
> 
> Now QTR is set up to print an even gradation L* (Lab's L) from its 
darkest
> black to paper white.  If it could generate perfect black and 
perfect white
> then you could print the Lab space in totality with an even 
gradation of L*
> and have a nice "gamma" or curvature in density from pure black to 
pure
> white.  But as noted above we can't get perfect black or perfect 
white.   If
> the best black is really "light black" and the best white 
is "almost white"
> and there is still a straight line of L* between the two then the 
gamma or
> contrast must be less.  Hence, out-of-the-box the prints look a 
little
> "flat" because the black isn't as good as on screen and the gamma or
> contrast is less.  
> 
> OK so what do we do about it?  Two solutions.  First, we could 
introduce an
> arbitrary S curve to increase image contrast so that when it is 
printed we
> have a better look. Secondly, we could use some of the tools 
available to us
> to do that for us.  In either case, it is useful to see before we 
print the
> result of either action.
> 
> The second of the two is more effective, easier and more readily 
previewed
> or soft proofed.  Roy has designed two ICC profiles, QTR Gray Matte 
Paper
> and QTR Gray Photo Paper, which are in essence general profiles for 
the two
> types of media we print to.  With these you can use two Photoshop's 
ability
> to convert between ICC profiles and to preview a file in another 
colour
> space.  So at the time of printing you can use Photoshop to convert 
your
> image to the print space using the perceptual intent and black point
> compensation.  This in effect automates the s curve piece.  
Furthermore,
> prior to printing you can preview how the file will look once 
converted to
> the print space (matte or photo), ie see how it will look when 
printed.  Use
> View -> Proof Setup -> Custom  to set up the soft proof.  Convert 
the
> document to the print space prior to printing (save a preprint 
master
> first!).  The workflow for last bit is slightly different depending 
on
> whether you are on a Mac or PC.
> 
> The ICC profiles can be found here:
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/royharrington/FileSharing2.html
> 
> under grayspaceXYZv2.zip
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > From: Diane Fields <picnic@c...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:38:47 -0400
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200
> > 
> > 
> > Have you tried softproofing in PS and adjusting tonality/contrast?
> > 
> > Diane
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: glovinger
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 8:12 AM
> >   Subject: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   I installed the QTR rip yesterday for my Epson 2200 and made 
several
> >   test prints. So far I like the color tones, but I am very 
unhappy
> >   with the flatness of my prints. I actually prefer the green 
colorcast I
> >   get without the rip because of the wonderful detail and subtle 
tones
> >   the printer can produce.
> >   What do you all consider the best rip on the market for the 
2200? I
> >   guess I need to spend more than $50.- to get the best of both 
worlds.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
the membership
> > without notice.
> >   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the
> > membership.
> >   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> >   
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> >   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" 
AND "MODERATORS" OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE 
DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION 
OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER 
RELATING TO THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
> >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> >       
> >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >       
> >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms 
of Service.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
the membership
> > without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and
> > Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the 
Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
„OWNER‰ AND
> > „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT 
BE LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ 
AND „MODERATORS‰ OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE 
DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION 
OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER 
RELATING TO THE
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by john dean

Back in the 70's  I worshiped Weston. When I was working at the Center in 
Tucson I saw a series of portraits that Wynn Bullock did of him as he was 
dying of Parkinsons. They were so sad. Edward used the extremely toxic 
developer Pyro for his negatives and the equally nasty  Amidol for his prints. 
His hands turned black from using this stuff and it eventually killed him, 
destroyed his nervous system, long before he should have left this earth. 
Chemicals also eventually killed my teacher Todd Walker and put another of 
my teachers in the hospital with liver poisoning.  Todd named each of his 
tumors after the various processes that he specialized in. I don't look back on 
those times as the good ole days. I'm more than happy to do a little research 
on rips to live a little while longer.

John ( breathing clean air in my studio every day of the week)

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Peter De Smidt

john dean wrote:

>Edward used the extremely toxic 
>developer Pyro for his negatives and the equally nasty  Amidol for his prints. 
>His hands turned black from using this stuff and it eventually killed him, 
>destroyed his nervous system, long before he should have left this earth. 
>  
>
Hi John,

I was unaware that there is a proven link between pyrogallic acid, 
amidol and parkenson's disease. Perhaps John could cite some references?

I agree, though, with the sentiment that traditional darkroom workers 
(and everyone else for that matter) should avoid toxic substances unless 
absolutely necessary.  Luckily there are lots of environmentally benign 
darkroom formulas. (I use a vitamin c/phenidone developer, ascorbic acid 
stop bath....) 

-Peter De Smidt
www.desmidt.net

OT... - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Paul Roark

John,

> Back in the 70's  I worshiped Weston. When I was working at the Center in
> Tucson I saw a series of portraits that Wynn Bullock did of him as he was
> dying of Parkinsons. They were so sad. Edward used the extremely toxic
> developer Pyro for his negatives and the equally nasty  Amidol for his
> prints.
> His hands turned black from using this stuff and it eventually killed him,
> destroyed his nervous system, long before he should have left this earth.

I had never heard the Pyro and Amidol were implicated in his Parkinson's
disease.  

When I -- perhaps foolishly -- indicated on my house plans the spot where a
darkroom would be, the city would not OK the plans without knowing more
about what I was going to use.  I gathered all the Material Safety Data
Sheets and gave them to the city (of Solvang, CA).  Oddly, it was the
Microdol X that bothered them the most.  I had to agree to develop no more
than 3 rolls per day.  They felt some chemical in the developer posed to
risk to their sewer and water treatment systems.  Apparently a big reason
for Xtol is that it is environmentally much more benign than the older
developers.

> Chemicals also eventually killed my teacher Todd Walker and put another of
> my teachers in the hospital with liver poisoning.  Todd named each of his
> tumors after the various processes that he specialized in.

As an aside, my Dad grew up with Walker.  They were ham radio and darkroom
buddies through high school and until Todd moved to Tucson.  (They lived in
Southern California at the time.)  Unrelated, my Dad's old childhood house
address in Tucson is now a parking structure at the U of A, very close to
the Center for Creative Photography.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Scott Graham

Who said it was proven.  Sounds like a bunch of hooey to me.  

While toxic chems are not good, what is toxic in what way is generally blathered about 
rather than known.  Gasoline for ex is supposed to be bad, but we used to virtually bathe 
in it washing machine parts and I am healthy (and old).  Same for trichloroethylene; they 
virtually drowned rats in it which caused them to die (exposed to a zillion times higher 
dose than rational) so they banned it.  Really too bad.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter De Smidt <pdesmidt@T...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> john dean wrote:
> 
> >Edward used the extremely toxic 
> >developer Pyro for his negatives and the equally nasty  Amidol for his prints. 
> >His hands turned black from using this stuff and it eventually killed him, 
> >destroyed his nervous system, long before he should have left this earth. 
> >  
> >
> Hi John,
> 
> I was unaware that there is a proven link between pyrogallic acid, 
> amidol and parkenson's disease. Perhaps John could cite some references?

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-16 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "outlaw07480"
<outlaw07480@y...> wrote:
> 
> Reading this entire thread I just can't help but wonder how Weston 
> got by with just three trays and a light blub.

With an extraordinary amount of talent. The sparcity of his means and
tools are no comment on his level of craft, which was also
extraordinary, even if intuitive.Very few of us will have either in
such amounts as to literally change the coarse of an art form.
Not a good example.
There is no either/or, knowledge/instinct, black or white. We all have
our different ways of moving forward. Those who choose not to pursue
the immense amount of technical knowledge available are in no more
position to critisize those who do, as are those knowlegeable to
critisize those percieved for having no digital "chops".

There's no need to inhibit those who feel the need to learn more,
about anything.

Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-16 by Steve Kale

Well said Tyler.  And we seem to belittle the significantly greater level of
control available today.  The price of this control is the need to
understand how to use it or not use it.  The early pioneers of photography
probably had to be more chemists rather than photographers.  Thank God we
don't have to learn all that stuff today. Imagine what their forum would
have read like!

But we do still need to understand the principles of light and the tools of
our trade.  Weston, Adams and all those guys of the past were well-versed in
these...or they farmed it out to a lab (but this forum is not about
outsourcing the print....).

If you seek plug 'n play then don't be surprised when it doesn't work and
you have no clue as to why not or that you end up resorting to hours of
trial and error in order to get a sensibly pleasing result.  However, with
understanding comes opportunity.  The good news is others like Roy, Steve B,
Tyler, Ernst, Carl and Paul, to name just a few, are putting in the hard
yardage and can distil things down to a more digestible level.

People also need to realise that this forum is intended to cater to a wide
variety of people with disparate degrees of knowledge.  It is what makes
this forum so informative and powerful.  The amount of knowledge on this
forum simply dwarfs that which I have found on any other.  Would you prefer
a forum for "Digital B&W The Print for Dummies (to paraphrase the popular
learning series) and those who don't want to understand and simply want to
be told what to do"?  I don't think so.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>

> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "outlaw07480"
> <outlaw07480@y...> wrote:
>> 
>> Reading this entire thread I just can't help but wonder how Weston
>> got by with just three trays and a light blub.
> 
> With an extraordinary amount of talent. The sparcity of his means and
> tools are no comment on his level of craft, which was also
> extraordinary, even if intuitive.Very few of us will have either in
> such amounts as to literally change the coarse of an art form.
> Not a good example.
> There is no either/or, knowledge/instinct, black or white. We all have
> our different ways of moving forward. Those who choose not to pursue
> the immense amount of technical knowledge available are in no more
> position to critisize those who do, as are those knowlegeable to
> critisize those percieved for having no digital "chops".
> 
> There's no need to inhibit those who feel the need to learn more,
> about anything.
> 
> Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by B. Ellis

>Edward used the extremely toxic
>developer Pyro for his negatives and the equally nasty  Amidol for his
prints.
>His hands turned black from using this stuff and it eventually killed him,

There is absolutely no scientific evidence of a link between the chemicals
Weston used and Parkinson's disease. Plenty of people used pyro and amidol
back then and many still do today, none of whom have died of Parkinson's
disease as far as I know.  Neither chemical is particularly dangerous if a
few simple precautions of the kind that should be observed with any darkroom
chemicals are observed, mainly mixing the pyro powders in a well ventilated
area and wearing gloves while doing so. Amidol isn't even particularly toxic
and it certainly didn't turn Weston's "hands" black. If used without gloves
amidol turns fingernails black as it did the fingernails of many
photographers besides Weston (including his son Brett) who didn't die of
Parkinson's disease. Unsightly perhaps but hardly fatal.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?




Back in the 70's  I worshiped Weston. When I was working at the Center in
Tucson I saw a series of portraits that Wynn Bullock did of him as he was
dying of Parkinsons. They were so sad. Edward used the extremely toxic
developer Pyro for his negatives and the equally nasty  Amidol for his
prints.
His hands turned black from using this stuff and it eventually killed him,
destroyed his nervous system, long before he should have left this earth.
Chemicals also eventually killed my teacher Todd Walker and put another of
my teachers in the hospital with liver poisoning.  Todd named each of his
tumors after the various processes that he specialized in. I don't look back
on
those times as the good ole days. I'm more than happy to do a little
research
on rips to live a little while longer.

John ( breathing clean air in my studio every day of the week)






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-16 by Diane Fields

I have subbed to the list off and on for several years (sometimes when I'm away, I go to 'no mail'--and then forget to read for awhile LOL).  There are conversations that are much more technical than I'm interested in but I do read most of them anyhow.  I've contemplated using Paul Roark's curves and MIS inks for a number of years in my 1280--even before I bought my 2200 well over 2 years ago.  I tried B/O printing ala Clayton's instructions.  And--I found QTR and good support here.  I just let the very deep tech talk wash over me and latch onto what is relevant for me.  I will admit I am a dyed in the wool Photoshop user with a color managed system which understands my way around graphics apps, but its a whole different world from the b/w world LOL. Still--one never knows what you will learn on this list--and I keep my eyes open.  The knowledge here is what keeps bringing me back.

Diane
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Kale 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 6:18 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200



  People also need to realise that this forum is intended to cater to a wide
  variety of people with disparate degrees of knowledge.  It is what makes
  this forum so informative and powerful.  The amount of knowledge on this
  forum simply dwarfs that which I have found on any other.  Would you prefer
  a forum for "Digital B&W The Print for Dummies (to paraphrase the popular
  learning series) and those who don't want to understand and simply want to
  be told what to do"?  I don't think so.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Djon

I am personally hooked by this topic because my most important photo
teacher, CF, a student of Minor White, died of Parkinsons at a very
young age. 

My father also died of Parkinsons, but he was never significantly
involved with photo chemistry. 

I always associated CF's Parkinsons with pyro though I don't actually
know if he used it at Rochester...by the time I met him he already had
advanced Parkinsons (at 33!) and only shot Kodachrome. 

My mother, an accomplished photo/darkroom enthusiast in the 30s/40s,
told me about Margaret Bourke-White's death from Parkinsons, calling
it "photographers' disease." I don't know if Bourke-White used pyro.

Westons'fingernails, not his hands, were the famous telltale pyro
black...this wasn't just a stain. 

**What was most convincing to me was the similarity I saw in a set of
Ciba photomicroscopy prints in a Seattle exhibit in the mid-80s: Nerve
tissue damaged in one case by what I recall as "pyrogallic acid"  and
nerve tissue of a Parkinsons victim. The day I saw those photos I
called the MD who was featured in "The Case of the Frozen Addict" and
informed him. He'd not known the long-rumored association between this
photo chemical and his discovery of chemically induced Parkinsons.

"Pyrogallic acid" MAY share chemical characteristics with the botched
Ectacy (designer drug) that produced Parkinsons Syndrome documented in
the Nova production called "The Case of the Frozen Addict." 

http://www.parkinson.org/site/pp.asp?c=9dJFJLPwB&b=100132


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter De Smidt
<pdesmidt@T...> wrote:
> john dean wrote:
> 
> >Edward used the extremely toxic 
> >developer Pyro for his negatives and the equally nasty  Amidol for
his prints. 
> >His hands turned black from using this stuff and it eventually
killed him, 
> >destroyed his nervous system, long before he should have left this
earth. 
> >  
> >
> Hi John,
> 
> I was unaware that there is a proven link between pyrogallic acid, 
> amidol and parkenson's disease. Perhaps John could cite some references?
> 
> I agree, though, with the sentiment that traditional darkroom workers 
> (and everyone else for that matter) should avoid toxic substances
unless 
> absolutely necessary.  Luckily there are lots of environmentally benign 
> darkroom formulas. (I use a vitamin c/phenidone developer, ascorbic
acid 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> stop bath....) 
> 
> -Peter De Smidt
> www.desmidt.net

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-16 by glovinger

Thanks so much for all your help and encouragement not to give up on 
QTR. I guess I had read a lot about how the images seem flat, and I 
confirmed it with my test prints.
I don't think I was very clear in my post. I was referring to 
printing black and white only.
I am a fairly advanced Photoshop user and I think I am able to 
convert beautiful b&w images in PS. I also do a lot of color 
printing on my 2200 with Epson and other paper company's
profiles, 
and I think they come out beautiful. (Are the profiles on the Epson 
2200 driver and download page by Bill Atkinson?) 
I understand the difference in dynamic range between monitor and 
print, but I have never used a rip before, so I am new to black and 
white printing and I want to learn. I was referring to a comparison 
I made of test prints using the QTR compared to a print made with an 
Epson paper profile which had a color cast, but beautiful depth and 
detail.
You are right, John, I was doing something wrong. Steve, your 
explanation about the PS profiles confirmed it. I did not convert to 
profile. When you convert, do you use dither? I thought the profiles 
for PS were for soft proofing only, but then again I could not find 
the quick start guide, it did not install (Does anyone know where to 
find it?)
I just printed some more test prints, WOW they are beautiful!!!! I 
am convinced.
Here is my workflow, please let me know where I am going wrong and 
where I can improve.   Paper type matte, my paper is Epson enh. 
Matte, MK ink, 1440 super, better speed. Enh matte cool both curves. 
A second print with 75% cool, 25% warm, there is only a very slight 
difference, and they are both beautiful. A third print on Premium 
Luster, PK ink, 1440super, better speed, dither ordered, now I used 
a semi gloss curve because there was no Luster, and this print came 
out brown, but still a beautiful depth and clarity.
Thanks again, I couldn't have done this without you, Gurli


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> $50 is all you need spend.  QTR is really very good at what it 
does.  You
> just need to understand how to use it best.  Here's the longer 
answer.
> 
> First understand that you can't, generally speaking, print as dark 
as you
> can see on screen and that paper isn't generally as white.  That 
is, the
> dynamic range of today's paper with today's inks is relatively 
narrow.  Not
> bad but narrow.  OK that first bit was easy.
> 
> Now QTR is set up to print an even gradation L* (Lab's L) from its 
darkest
> black to paper white.  If it could generate perfect black and 
perfect white
> then you could print the Lab space in totality with an even 
gradation of L*
> and have a nice "gamma" or curvature in density from pure black to 
pure
> white.  But as noted above we can't get perfect black or perfect 
white.   If
> the best black is really "light black" and the best white 
is "almost white"
> and there is still a straight line of L* between the two then the 
gamma or
> contrast must be less.  Hence, out-of-the-box the prints look a 
little
> "flat" because the black isn't as good as on screen and the gamma 
or
> contrast is less.  
> 
> OK so what do we do about it?  Two solutions.  First, we could 
introduce an
> arbitrary S curve to increase image contrast so that when it is 
printed we
> have a better look. Secondly, we could use some of the tools 
available to us
> to do that for us.  In either case, it is useful to see before we 
print the
> result of either action.
> 
> The second of the two is more effective, easier and more readily 
previewed
> or soft proofed.  Roy has designed two ICC profiles, QTR Gray 
Matte Paper
> and QTR Gray Photo Paper, which are in essence general profiles 
for the two
> types of media we print to.  With these you can use two 
Photoshop's ability
> to convert between ICC profiles and to preview a file in another 
colour
> space.  So at the time of printing you can use Photoshop to 
convert your
> image to the print space using the perceptual intent and black 
point
> compensation.  This in effect automates the s curve piece.  
Furthermore,
> prior to printing you can preview how the file will look once 
converted to
> the print space (matte or photo), ie see how it will look when 
printed.  Use
> View -> Proof Setup -> Custom  to set up the soft proof.  Convert 
the
> document to the print space prior to printing (save a preprint 
master
> first!).  The workflow for last bit is slightly different 
depending on
> whether you are on a Mac or PC.
> 
> The ICC profiles can be found here:
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/royharrington/FileSharing2.html
> 
> under grayspaceXYZv2.zip
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > From: Diane Fields <picnic@c...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:38:47 -0400
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200
> > 
> > 
> > Have you tried softproofing in PS and adjusting 
tonality/contrast?
> > 
> > Diane
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: glovinger
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
> >   Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 8:12 AM
> >   Subject: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   I installed the QTR rip yesterday for my Epson 2200 and made 
several
> >   test prints. So far I like the color tones, but I am very 
unhappy
> >   with the flatness of my prints. I actually prefer the green 
colorcast I
> >   get without the rip because of the wonderful detail and subtle 
tones
> >   the printer can produce.
> >   What do you all consider the best rip on the market for the 
2200? I
> >   guess I need to spend more than $50.- to get the best of both 
worlds.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
the membership
> > without notice.
> >   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the
> > membership.
> >   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> >   
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> >   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" 
AND "MODERATORS" OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION 
OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER 
RELATING TO THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
> >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> >       
> >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >       
> >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms 
of Service.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
the membership
> > without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and
> > Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰
in the 
Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
„OWNER‰ AND
> > „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
SHALL NOT 
BE LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
„OWNER‰ 
AND „MODERATORS‰ OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION 
OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER 
RELATING TO THE
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by john dean

Well, we'll never know exactly what contrubuted to Weston's parkinsons. I know he wrote 
in his daybooks that "I"ve only done this to mysef". I have no idea what he meant by that. 
None of this discounts the genus of his work or his global contribution in the way he did 
more with less.

Most likely it was a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Weston did not take 
precautions and did not use gloves or a mask and probably didn't have decent ventelaion 
either. He was a strict vegetarian ,sometimes living on avacados, so his immune system 
could have been weak too. I don't know. But there is no doubting the toxic effects of 
developer agents, especially but not limited to  Pyro. We all react to these things 
differently. I have had students that break out in a major rash with just a brief exposure to 
Dektol. Some people can't even be around hypo without getting sick. Everyone is different.

They guy who said he "bathed" in gasoline in his work is walking a tightrope. I have a 
friend who is an ex house painter and he did the same. He ended up at 40 with liver 
cancer and he and his doctors know exactly what caused it, gasoline. My brother IS a 
scientist, a biologist, and he told me that even one big intense exposere to pure gasoline 
where it is absorbed into the blood stream has been shown to give people cancer. 

Todd Walker, who was a friend of Westons, used to tell me to be careful. "You guys know a 
lot more about this stuff than we did back in the 40's and 50's". He didn't say get out of 
the darkroom, he said use judgement and protect yourself with gloves and good 
ventilation at al times.

If I can avoid it alltogether, I will.

John





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" <westsidemaurice@y...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> I am personally hooked by this topic because my most important photo
> teacher, CF, a student of Minor White, died of Parkinsons at a very
> young age. 
> 
> My father also died of Parkinsons, but he was never significantly
> involved with photo chemistry. 
> 
> I always associated CF's Parkinsons with pyro though I don't actually
> know if he used it at Rochester...by the time I met him he already had
> advanced Parkinsons (at 33!) and only shot Kodachrome. 
> 
> My mother, an accomplished photo/darkroom enthusiast in the 30s/40s,
> told me about Margaret Bourke-White's death from Parkinsons, calling
> it "photographers' disease." I don't know if Bourke-White used pyro.
> 
> Westons'fingernails, not his hands, were the famous telltale pyro
> black...this wasn't just a stain. 
> 
> **What was most convincing to me was the similarity I saw in a set of
> Ciba photomicroscopy prints in a Seattle exhibit in the mid-80s: Nerve
> tissue damaged in one case by what I recall as "pyrogallic acid"  and
> nerve tissue of a Parkinsons victim. The day I saw those photos I
> called the MD who was featured in "The Case of the Frozen Addict" and
> informed him. He'd not known the long-rumored association between this
> photo chemical and his discovery of chemically induced Parkinsons.
> 
> "Pyrogallic acid" MAY share chemical characteristics with the botched
> Ectacy (designer drug) that produced Parkinsons Syndrome documented in
> the Nova production called "The Case of the Frozen Addict." 
> 
> http://www.parkinson.org/site/pp.asp?c=9dJFJLPwB&b=100132
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter De Smidt
> <pdesmidt@T...> wrote:
> > john dean wrote:
> > 
> > >Edward used the extremely toxic 
> > >developer Pyro for his negatives and the equally nasty  Amidol for
> his prints. 
> > >His hands turned black from using this stuff and it eventually
> killed him, 
> > >destroyed his nervous system, long before he should have left this
> earth. 
> > >  
> > >
> > Hi John,
> > 
> > I was unaware that there is a proven link between pyrogallic acid, 
> > amidol and parkenson's disease. Perhaps John could cite some references?
> > 
> > I agree, though, with the sentiment that traditional darkroom workers 
> > (and everyone else for that matter) should avoid toxic substances
> unless 
> > absolutely necessary.  Luckily there are lots of environmentally benign 
> > darkroom formulas. (I use a vitamin c/phenidone developer, ascorbic
> acid 
> > stop bath....) 
> > 
> > -Peter De Smidt
> > www.desmidt.net

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-16 by john dean

Some of my favourite curves for UC- QTR- and a 9600 so far are:

50c / 50w - a warm neutral

70c/ 30W - a neutral

80w/20c - a warm

75w/25 sepia - a light sepia

70 sepia/30 warm - a significant sepia

65 sepia / 35 cool - a cooler sepia

I am using the Photo Rag curves on both Innova Soft Cotton and Smooth Texture
Every paper is a little different. My preference is to stay away from papers with optical 
brighteners when making the sepia tones. I did a job last week on the Innova Smooth 
Texture that was 44x44 using that 70/30 sepia combination and my client loved them. 
Not too yellow, just right for me.

I haven't had time to find a great selenium tone combinatoin. Hopefully soon.

John

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Djon

> There is absolutely no scientific evidence of a link between the
chemicals Weston used and Parkinson's disease. Plenty of people used
pyro and amidol back then and many still do today, none of whom have
died of Parkinson's disease as far as I know. < 

Certainly some have died of Parkinson's. Weston, just mentioned (!),
and Margaret Bourke-White (Life Magazine) are certainties.  

There are MANY flavors of Parkinsons (not one disease but a
constellation of symptoms), some of which are commonly thought to be
genetic, some caused directly by chemicals. 

Some of those chemicals might MOST logically be those of
photographers: Who else carelessly spends significant time with hands
in contact with easily absorbed toxic chemicals? 

Yes, of course rubber gloves and good ventilation may create safety
(except for poisoning the water table that our neighbors share), but
many of us have not been that careful. 

If you wear a lead gloves you can handle radium, nothing to worry about...

Somebody *invariably" cries "no scientific evidence" when someone
raises the Pyro/Parkinsons question or express the belief. Those
kneejerk denials are also themselves urban legends and are inherently
dangerous: It's better to ignorantly fear a known toxic chemical than
it is to trust it.  

Of course no "scientific link" has been established! Nobody has a
vested interest in the chemical and hardly anybody even touches it,
probably due to its dark legend. We won't know if there's a
"scientific" link because there will never be a study...just the
perhaps-sometimes-substantive anecdotes and the equally naieve
automatic denials (originating mostly on the Internet and in photo
classes).

The grownups among us may remember that the tobacco companies invested
literally billions in false advertising and political bribes to
convince us that there was "no scientific evidence" linking tobacco
and lung cancer. 

Lack of "scientific evidence" is not meaningful information.

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Francis Ford

All that stuff about Weston is very romantic but not
true. I have had a B&W darkroom for more than 35 years
developed 8x10 tri-x in a tray for many years.Yes my
finger nails were black, a badge of honor.B&W
chemicals are very low in toxicity.I have used amidol
a lot,but not pyro.The one chemical I new not to get
on my fingers was of course selenium.I new a guy that
put his hands in hypo and they swelled up
instantly.Some people die from eating aspirin.I am 59
and alive and well.The toxicity of B&W chemicals are
not the reason I don't use a wet darkroom
anymore.Francis Ford
--- Djon <westsidemaurice@...> wrote:
> 
>  
> > There is absolutely no scientific evidence of a
> link between the
> chemicals Weston used and Parkinson's disease.
> Plenty of people used
> pyro and amidol back then and many still do today,
> none of whom have
> died of Parkinson's disease as far as I know. < 
> 
> Certainly some have died of Parkinson's. Weston,
> just mentioned (!),
> and Margaret Bourke-White (Life Magazine) are
> certainties.  
> 
> There are MANY flavors of Parkinsons (not one
> disease but a
> constellation of symptoms), some of which are
> commonly thought to be
> genetic, some caused directly by chemicals. 
> 
> Some of those chemicals might MOST logically be
> those of
> photographers: Who else carelessly spends
> significant time with hands
> in contact with easily absorbed toxic chemicals? 
> 
> Yes, of course rubber gloves and good ventilation
> may create safety
> (except for poisoning the water table that our
> neighbors share), but
> many of us have not been that careful. 
> 
> If you wear a lead gloves you can handle radium,
> nothing to worry about...
> 
> Somebody *invariably" cries "no scientific evidence"
> when someone
> raises the Pyro/Parkinsons question or express the
> belief. Those
> kneejerk denials are also themselves urban legends
> and are inherently
> dangerous: It's better to ignorantly fear a known
> toxic chemical than
> it is to trust it.  
> 
> Of course no "scientific link" has been established!
> Nobody has a
> vested interest in the chemical and hardly anybody
> even touches it,
> probably due to its dark legend. We won't know if
> there's a
> "scientific" link because there will never be a
> study...just the
> perhaps-sometimes-substantive anecdotes and the
> equally naieve
> automatic denials (originating mostly on the
> Internet and in photo
> classes).
> 
> The grownups among us may remember that the tobacco
> companies invested
> literally billions in false advertising and
> political bribes to
> convince us that there was "no scientific evidence"
> linking tobacco
> and lung cancer. 
> 
> Lack of "scientific evidence" is not meaningful
> information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-16 by Steve Kale

Hi Gurli

> (Are the profiles on the Epson
> 2200 driver and download page by Bill Atkinson?)

Bill's Epson profiles are available on the Epson USA site somewhere.  They
are not pointed to from the UK website so I don't know exactly where.

> I am a fairly advanced Photoshop user and I think I am able to
> convert beautiful b&w images in PS. I also do a lot of color
> printing on my 2200 with Epson and other paper company's
> profiles, 
> and I think they come out beautiful.

The good news with QTR is that it is now, essentially, a colour-managed
workflow.  So think about it in the same way as you would print colour with
an Epson ICC profile - using PS to do the profile conversion and "no colour
adjustment" in the Epson driver.  So if you are up on colour management then
you are an inch away from great results with QTR.

Think of the two ICC profiles... QTR-Gray Matte Paper and QTR-Gray Photo
Paper..... as being a generic matte paper profile (like Epson's ICC profile
for Epson Enhanced Matte paper) and a generic photo paper (like Epson's
profile for Epson Premium Semi-gloss).  Roy could have done a different
profile for every different paper but since B&W is simpler than colour (we
are only worried about tonal compression in one dimension: luminance or
print reflectance) it wasn't really necessary.  That sort of refinement can
come later.

So the workflow is exactly the same as for colour.  Exactly the same as for
Epson but with a different driver - one that manages the inks in a better
way (and one that is flexible in handling different ink sets).

> When you convert, do you use dither?

I use a Mac and so I can convert the profile on the fly with PS as PS hands
the file off to the QTR driver.  There is no dither selection at this point.
If you are on a PC then you need to do the conversion using Image -> Mode ->
Convert to Profile and then save this "print" version before opening it in
QTR GUI.  To be honest I do not know what Use Dither does - it defaults as
checked in my system and so unless someone here says not to use it I would
use it.

>I thought the profiles
> for PS were for soft proofing only

They are ICC profiles which depict the nature of the print space - just like
colour.  You use them at printing and as a soft proof of what the image will
look like once converted to the print space.

So to summarise your experience.  Firstly, you printed with the Epson driver
and Epson matte paper profile and used colour management tools (perceptual
intent) to handle the compression from the broad workspace to the narrow
tonal range of the print space.  Result: good management of tonal
compression (yay perceptual intent!) but bad Epson use of colour inks.  Then
you printed with a RIP that makes good use of the inks but you forgot to
make use of the tonal compression tool available to you.  Result:  good
"colour" (no castes) but bad tonal transform.  Thirdly, you printed using
that good driver which makes good use of the inks AND you made use of PS's
access to perceptual intent to handle the tonal compression.  Result:  great
prints.  Go on and explore!

Cheers

Steve

PS Please trim your posts



Completely Optional Learning Exercise:

If you want, you can take some of the voodoo out of what you're doing and
why the ICC profile made such an immediate difference with a simple exercise
if you know how to use Excel or an equivalent spreadsheet program.  It is
also a prerequisite for anyone thinking about writing their own curves - if
they want to understand the process rather than just follow instructions.

While you are happily printing, I would encourage you to think about what I
said about the nature of the print space and its construction.  Rips like
QTR (or IJC/OPM) are "calibrated" such that they print a greyscale from ink
black to paper white with nice even increments of L*.  (L* being a measure
of luminance in Lab terms). So on a chart, for matte paper L* is a straight
line from around (0,16) to (100,96)...whereas true Lab would plot L* from
(0,0) to (100,100).  The process of making sure L* is linear from black to
white is called linearization.  You will come across this term on this forum
a lot as people who are making their own ink curves "linearize" their
curves.

Even though the printer produces linear L* from its best black to best white
just like the Lab space you can see from the chart that the two spaces are
not the same - the best blacks and whites are different.  In fact, knowing
that the higher L* is the lighter the shade of grey is, you can see why your
first prints were generally "lighter" than you expect looking at the screen.

If you are so inclined, and this is a very informative exercise, do a very
simple Excel spreadsheet.  Put in the first column steps from 1, white, to
21, black, in 5 point increments - just like a 21-step wedge. Make the next
column "True L*" - it goes from 100, white, to 0, black, in five point
increments.  Make the third column "Output L*".  We could measure an actual
step wedge printed with a linearized QTR curve (without the ICC profile
conversion) but given we know that the print setup has been linearized and
that dMax for matte paper is around 1.65 or L*=16 and paper white is about a
density of 0.03 or L=97 we can simple make this column go from 97 to 16 in
even decrements over the 21 steps as a good enough assumption.

(If you are on a Mac take a look at one of the matte print curves, eg
UC-EEnhMatte-warm-1.  Look at the last line and you will see the linearize
function with a density number of around 0.03 at the beginning and around
1.65 at the end.  This is simply the density measurements the person writing
the curve took from a step wedge printed before the linearize function was
inserted.)

Now convert the two columns of L* - "True" and "Output" to density.  This
involves a two step process first calculating the XYZ space equivalent of
L*, ie XYZ_Y, and then from this calculating density.  I'll put the two
formulas at the bottom of this post.  Now plot the two density curves, steps
on the x axis and density on the y axis (you have to fudge the True L*=0
Figure because it is infinity).  The curvature in these two curves is gamma.
You can now see why the prints were "flatter" as well as lighter - the
curvature or gamma was not as great.

Ok last step.  Take a look at the XYZ_Y values you calculated for Output.
Plot this.  Now, find the QTR Gray Matte Paper ICC profile on your computer
(on a Mac they are stored in Library->Application Support ->Adobe ->Color
->Profiles).  On a Mac you can open this with Colorsync Utility by
right-clicking or command-clicking).  Have a look at kTRC.  It has a curve
which is the same as the one you just did (with one minor exception which
need not be bothered with).  You can see that the ICC profile has profiled
the print space with a T(onal) R(esponse) C(urve) or TRC and 'cos its just a
greyscale: kTRC.  

If we have a profile of the print space and we have a profile of the
workspace (Gray Gamma 2.2 or whatever) we are away laughing and can use PS's
powerful colour management to manage the tonal compression.

No more black box.



XYZ_Y = IF(L>8, ((L+16)/116)^3,(L*27)/24389)

Density = -LOG10(Y)

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200, Best paper

2005-04-16 by glovinger

Thanks again Steve,
This is really exciting, I am learning so much.
Now that I can make beautiful prints, I have discovered that my 
favorite papers for color do not make the best black and white prints.
What would you all recommend for matte paper, smooth or only light 
texture, fairly heavy, and white?
Gurli

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200, Best paper

2005-04-16 by Steve Kale

Personally I find that trying too many papers means a collection unused
stuff in the closet.  I only use EEM (for test prints), Hahnemuhle Photorag
and Permajet Alpha matte papers.  The last two must be loaded through the
rear loader.  I have not heard a truly compelling reason to move away from
these just yet (and some of the papers discussed on this forum aren't
available in the UK).
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: glovinger <lovinger@...>

> 
> 
> Thanks again Steve,
> This is really exciting, I am learning so much.
> Now that I can make beautiful prints, I have discovered that my
> favorite papers for color do not make the best black and white prints.
> What would you all recommend for matte paper, smooth or only light
> texture, fairly heavy, and white?
> Gurli
>

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200, Best paper

2005-04-16 by Diane Fields

I have found it interesting to try sample packs.  Not sure if these are available easily for most papers in the UK, but most all are here--and that means I don't have to buy a package of any paper.  Usually you get one or 2 of each for a nominal amount from most vendors.

Diane
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Kale 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 2:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200, Best paper


  Personally I find that trying too many papers means a collection unused
  stuff in the closet.  I

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Djon

Francis Ford <francisford45@y...> wrote:
> All that stuff about Weston is very romantic but not
> true. 

What are you denying? Parkinsons? His use of pyro? 

I don't claim he was killed by pyro, but many smart people suspect
that. Call it superstition, call it common wisdom. 

I don't need Msgr Bush to tell me to refrain from certain behaviors...
most wisdom is self-evident. 

If you have a basis for denying the likely danger of pyro state it. If
you have no basis other than your own survival to middle age, you
won't step up to that plate.  

I can't swear that pyro killed Weston, but he did show the effects on
his fingernails and he did die with Parkinsons symptoms. Hmmm. 

Parkinsons is a constellation of around 5 related symptom sets. Some
manafestations are sometimes said to be genetic (an easy out) and some
have been demonstrated conclusively to be chemically induced (eg  bad
"designer drugs" one of which looked to me, a non-scientist, like
pyrogallic acid in the photomicroscopy I mentioned earlier). 

http://www.parkinson.org/site/pp.asp?c=9dJFJLPwB&b=100132

Junkies often live to ripe old ages, some smokers even live past 59.

>I have had a B&W darkroom for more than 35 years > 

Absolutely irrelevant. 

 Yes my
> finger nails were black, a badge of honor.

Like drinking and driving. 
 
I have used amidol
> a lot,but not pyro.

We began talking about pyro.

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200, Best paper

2005-04-16 by glovinger

Thanks Steve, I'll try them.
I am not from the UK, but from Cape Cod, Massachusetts, a transplant 
from Denmark though.
You have been such a great help.
Gurli

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Personally I find that trying too many papers means a collection 
unused
> stuff in the closet.  I only use EEM (for test prints), Hahnemuhle 
Photorag
> and Permajet Alpha matte papers.  The last two must be loaded 
through the
> rear loader.  I have not heard a truly compelling reason to move 
away from
> these just yet (and some of the papers discussed on this forum 
aren't
> available in the UK).
> 
> 
> > From: glovinger <lovinger@c...>
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks again Steve,
> > This is really exciting, I am learning so much.
> > Now that I can make beautiful prints, I have discovered that my
> > favorite papers for color do not make the best black and white 
prints.
> > What would you all recommend for matte paper, smooth or only 
light
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > texture, fairly heavy, and white?
> > Gurli
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by B. Ellis

>Certainly some have died of Parkinson's. Weston, just mentioned (!),
>and Margaret Bourke-White (Life Magazine) are certainties.

I don't know what Margaret Bourke-White died of but for most of her career,
perhaps all of it,  she didn't do her own darkroom work so the culprit
wasn't  darkroom chemicals.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Djon" <westsidemaurice@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?
and Margaret Bourke-White (Life Magazine) are certainties.




> There is absolutely no scientific evidence of a link between the
chemicals Weston used and Parkinson's disease. Plenty of people used
pyro and amidol back then and many still do today, none of whom have
died of Parkinson's disease as far as I know. <

Certainly some have died of Parkinson's. Weston, just mentioned (!),
and Margaret Bourke-White (Life Magazine) are certainties.

There are MANY flavors of Parkinsons (not one disease but a
constellation of symptoms), some of which are commonly thought to be
genetic, some caused directly by chemicals.

Some of those chemicals might MOST logically be those of
photographers: Who else carelessly spends significant time with hands
in contact with easily absorbed toxic chemicals?

Yes, of course rubber gloves and good ventilation may create safety
(except for poisoning the water table that our neighbors share), but
many of us have not been that careful.

If you wear a lead gloves you can handle radium, nothing to worry about...

Somebody *invariably" cries "no scientific evidence" when someone
raises the Pyro/Parkinsons question or express the belief. Those
kneejerk denials are also themselves urban legends and are inherently
dangerous: It's better to ignorantly fear a known toxic chemical than
it is to trust it.

Of course no "scientific link" has been established! Nobody has a
vested interest in the chemical and hardly anybody even touches it,
probably due to its dark legend. We won't know if there's a
"scientific" link because there will never be a study...just the
perhaps-sometimes-substantive anecdotes and the equally naieve
automatic denials (originating mostly on the Internet and in photo
classes).

The grownups among us may remember that the tobacco companies invested
literally billions in false advertising and political bribes to
convince us that there was "no scientific evidence" linking tobacco
and lung cancer.

Lack of "scientific evidence" is not meaningful information.








Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Djon

---   for most of her career, 
>  ...
> 
> Somebody *invariably" cries "no scientific evidence" when someone
> raises the Pyro/Parkinsons question or express the belief. Those
> kneejerk denials are also themselves urban legends and are inherently
> dangerous: It's better to ignorantly fear a known toxic chemical than
> it is to trust it.
> 
> Of course no "scientific link" has been established! Nobody has a
> vested interest in the chemical and hardly anybody even touches it,
> probably due to its dark legend. We won't know if there's a
> "scientific" link because there will never be a study...just the
> perhaps-sometimes-substantive anecdotes and the equally naieve
> automatic denials (originating mostly on the Internet and in photo
> classes).
> 
> The grownups among us may remember that the tobacco companies invested
> literally billions in false advertising and political bribes to
> convince us that there was "no scientific evidence" linking tobacco
> and lung cancer.
> 
> Lack of "scientific evidence" is not meaningful information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
CONDUCT OF ANY
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Roger L Sopher

Djon wrote:

>
> ---   for most of her career,
> >

Parkinson's is a clinical syndrome with a group of characteristics 
findings. It is termed Parkinson's disease in the absence of a toxic or 
other known etiology. The major toxin associated with this syndrome is 
MTPT (1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine) which is an analog 
of meperidine, a synthetic opioid. MTPT is given intravenously to 
produce the lesions that cause Parkinson's.

There was a rash of Parkinson's in people from the era of the influenza 
pandemic of 1918  or so as they became older but this has become 
fleetingly rare at the present time.

There is a murky epidemiological suggestion that herbicide and pesticide 
exposure may increase the incidence of the disease. On the other hand, 
well water and living in the country also have the same degree of 
association.

Although not my specific area of expertise, so far as I know there is no 
suggested association of Parkinson's with darkroom chemicals in the 
medical literature .

Remember that 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' is a classic flaw in logical 
reasoning.

-- 
_______________________

Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http://deCorrales.com
_______________________

2200 in general help!

2005-04-16 by Mark Rabiner

You guys are so far ahead of me that I feel like I'm never going to catch
up. I've doing my "black and white" printing by mainly converting to
duotones and using my own tweaked "grey" set which has warms, cools, and
selenium purples in it. Based one the one Photoshop already gives you.

Black. 
    With the curve very much favoring the right
Pantone Cool grey 10c  (looks neutral to me, but helps out)
Pantone warm  grey 7c (very slight warming effect)
Pantone  437c
    Which I¹d call Selenium purple

And de saturating the magenta sometimes.
And the color seems ok. I use Epson enhanced matt with a 2200.
Before that I used a 1200 which I got when it came out. Had converted that
to MIS then continuous MIS. Then back.
So I have lots of experience  but when I see what you guys & dolls are up to
and into I know I've only hit the very tip of the iceberg.

I'm half thinking maybe get another 2200 and MIS Quadtone that.
Or upgrade to the 4000.

I'm interested in any and all opinions.

If there's someone in the Portland Oregon area who wants to drop by and
throw me a rope; show me the light at the end of the tunnel; look at my
color spaces and laugh please give me a call.
I'll buy you lunch.
I am a photographer so you'd be contributing to the welfare of the species.
Here's my info:

Call any time my office is downtown and if I'm asleep I don't hear the
phone. Or upstairs watching TV. Or reading War and Piece.


Mark Rabiner
Photographer
Studio: 503-221-0301
Cell: 503-515-5565
Fax: 503-221-0308
WebSite: www.rabinergroup.com
Email: mark@...
1905 NW 23rd Place Portland Oregon 97210-2535

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200 - Weston would agree?

2005-04-16 by Anthony S. Tubbs

I have just a quick thing to say abouth this. First I know several old 
men in their 80 and 90 that have smoked non filtered cigs for 60 70 plus 
years, does cigs cause cancer to some people yes it does.  Now theirs a 
new thing going around about babies and the immue shots and the link to 
Autisum, the drug compaines use a organic form of mercuy for a 
perserative in the immue shots that babies get now in this country 0ne 
out of 166 babies develope some type of autisum related diease.  No link 
has been proven, so what is the casue, in the fortys and fifties a lot 
of dark room workers came down with Parkersons diease, did the dark room 
chemical caues, no Proven link.  My father and mother worked for Owens 
Mills for most of their life so I met plenty of people that had gotten 
sick. And lots of people that did'nt get sick.     Anthony


Francis Ford wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>All that stuff about Weston is very romantic but not
>true. I have had a B&W darkroom for more than 35 years
>developed 8x10 tri-x in a tray for many years.Yes my
>finger nails were black, a badge of honor.B&W
>chemicals are very low in toxicity.I have used amidol
>a lot,but not pyro.The one chemical I new not to get
>on my fingers was of course selenium.I new a guy that
>put his hands in hypo and they swelled up
>instantly.Some people die from eating aspirin.I am 59
>and alive and well.The toxicity of B&W chemicals are
>not the reason I don't use a wet darkroom
>anymore.Francis Ford
>--- Djon <westsidemaurice@...> wrote:
>  
>
>> 
>>    
>>

RE: [Digital BW] 2200 in general help!

2005-04-17 by Paul Roark

Mark,

You wrote, in part:

> I'm half thinking maybe get another 2200 and MIS Quadtone that.
> Or upgrade to the 4000.
> 
> I'm interested in any and all opinions.

For what it's worth, here is my approach.  I do only B&W, so my interest has
been with the dedicated B&W.  I still like the variable tone approach, and
the MIS UT7 inkset that I use allows me to print glossy or matte without
changing the black ink.  Since the yellow is a rather optional spot, I often
use gloss optimizer (glop) in that spot so that I can make artifact-free
glossy B&W prints on the Kirkland paper (best in price and quality for
8x10).  The default in tone is sepia, but I don't really use that tone much.
I generally like the cool on glossy, neutral ("selenium") or medium warm on
matte, and carbon for the old photo reproduction (most archival).

One can print with the Epson driver, grayscale with sliders, RGB with
curves; or a rip like QTR or IJC.

I put my 2200 notes on the web at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT-2200-Readme.htm.

I decided to go with the 2200 and 7600, and not the 4000.  I like the 24"
rolls of Premium Semimatte in particular. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
> Rabiner
> Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 2:22 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] 2200 in general help!
> 
> 
> You guys are so far ahead of me that I feel like I'm never going to catch
> up. I've doing my "black and white" printing by mainly converting to
> duotones and using my own tweaked "grey" set which has warms, cools, and
> selenium purples in it. Based one the one Photoshop already gives you.
> 
> Black.
>     With the curve very much favoring the right
> Pantone Cool grey 10c  (looks neutral to me, but helps out)
> Pantone warm  grey 7c (very slight warming effect)
> Pantone  437c
>     Which I¹d call Selenium purple
> 
> And de saturating the magenta sometimes.
> And the color seems ok. I use Epson enhanced matt with a 2200.
> Before that I used a 1200 which I got when it came out. Had converted that
> to MIS then continuous MIS. Then back.
> So I have lots of experience  but when I see what you guys & dolls are up
> to
> and into I know I've only hit the very tip of the iceberg.
> 
> I'm half thinking maybe get another 2200 and MIS Quadtone that.
> Or upgrade to the 4000.
> 
> I'm interested in any and all opinions.
> 
> If there's someone in the Portland Oregon area who wants to drop by and
> throw me a rope; show me the light at the end of the tunnel; look at my
> color spaces and laugh please give me a call.
> I'll buy you lunch.
> I am a photographer so you'd be contributing to the welfare of the
> species.
> Here's my info:
> 
> Call any time my office is downtown and if I'm asleep I don't hear the
> phone. Or upstairs watching TV. Or reading War and Piece.
> 
> 
> Mark Rabiner
> Photographer
> Studio: 503-221-0301
> Cell: 503-515-5565
> Fax: 503-221-0308
> WebSite: www.rabinergroup.com
> Email: mark@...
> 1905 NW 23rd Place Portland Oregon 97210-2535
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: OT... - Weston would agree?

2005-04-17 by scott_now_coming

" Xtol is that it is environmentally much more benign than the older
developers."

If I remember correctly, Xtol is citric acid based.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> John,
> 
> > Back in the 70's  I worshiped Weston. When I was working at the 
Center in
> > Tucson I saw a series of portraits that Wynn Bullock did of him 
as he was
> > dying of Parkinsons. They were so sad. Edward used the extremely 
toxic
> > developer Pyro for his negatives and the equally nasty  Amidol 
for his
> > prints.
> > His hands turned black from using this stuff and it eventually 
killed him,
> > destroyed his nervous system, long before he should have left 
this earth.
> 
> I had never heard the Pyro and Amidol were implicated in his 
Parkinson's
> disease.  
> 
> When I -- perhaps foolishly -- indicated on my house plans the spot 
where a
> darkroom would be, the city would not OK the plans without knowing 
more
> about what I was going to use.  I gathered all the Material Safety 
Data
> Sheets and gave them to the city (of Solvang, CA).  Oddly, it was 
the
> Microdol X that bothered them the most.  I had to agree to develop 
no more
> than 3 rolls per day.  They felt some chemical in the developer 
posed to
> risk to their sewer and water treatment systems.  Apparently a big 
reason
> for Xtol is that it is environmentally much more benign than the 
older
> developers.
> 
> > Chemicals also eventually killed my teacher Todd Walker and put 
another of
> > my teachers in the hospital with liver poisoning.  Todd named 
each of his
> > tumors after the various processes that he specialized in.
> 
> As an aside, my Dad grew up with Walker.  They were ham radio and 
darkroom
> buddies through high school and until Todd moved to Tucson.  (They 
lived in
> Southern California at the time.)  Unrelated, my Dad's old 
childhood house
> address in Tucson is now a parking structure at the U of A, very 
close to
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> the Center for Creative Photography.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT... - Weston would agree?

2005-04-17 by Paul Roark

Scott,
 
> 
> " Xtol is that it is environmentally much more benign than the older
> developers."
> 
> If I remember correctly, Xtol is citric acid based.

Yes.  It seems to have about the finest grain for a full speed developer, in
part because there is almost no chemical sharpening (adjacency effect).  I
considered this terrible in the darkroom, with no easy unsharp masking, but
with the computer, I think low grain may be the better goal.  Sharpening an
image seems to be easier than smoothing out the grain and unevenness that
results from dilute, compensating, high edge effect developers.  So, I took
a roll of Tmax 100 and will develop it in Xtol to see how it scans and
looks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-17 by jt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> 
> If we have a profile of the print space and we have a profile of 
the
> workspace (Gray Gamma 2.2 or whatever) we are away laughing and 
can use PS's powerful colour management to manage the tonal 
compression.
> 

Steve,

In Photoshop I would normally duplicate the image and then compare 
the workspace view with the softproofed view. I would then adjust 
the softproofed view with adjustment layers to match the original 
workspace view as closely as possible, then save that printer 
corrected image. 

In your comment above, you seem to be implying that there is an 
automatic way of achieving this correction within Photoshop's colour 
management. Am I missing something?

Thanks,   John T

Re: [Digital BW] Best Rip for 2200

2005-04-17 by Steve Kale

Yes/no.  If you duplicate the image and then soft proof the duplicate
(pre-edits) you are seeing the original file "as it would appear IF
converted to the output/printer colour space".  You haven't yet done the
conversion and therefore nothing has yet changed.  I assume that you then go
ahead and either do the profile conversion to your "print copy" or actually
do it "on the fly" when you print.  The profile conversion is done for you
by Photoshop when you ask it to.  So yes when you ask it to do so PS handles
the conversion "automatically".  So far there is no difference between what
you are saying and what I am saying.  Whether you make a "print copy" or not
you and I are asking PS to convert the document's profile from the workspace
to the printer space and we are each taking a sneak peak at the output with
a soft proof.

When you say " adjust the soft-proofed view with adjustment layers to match
the original workspace view as closely as possible" all you are saying is
that when looking at the preview/soft proof you don't like the rendering of
the image that perceptual intent will give you when you go ahead with the
conversion and so you want to make some alterations before doing that and
printing.  That's fine.  It's only necessary of you don't like what the
profile conversion is going to give you.  Of course this is the whole point
of having a soft proof.  I omitted this for simplicity's sake.  For many
people, the rendition generated by perceptual intent is fine enough and if
this workflow is followed with QTR they will avoid the "flat and light"
prints problem which will be a big relief. (Hopefully the discussion has
also explained why it is avoided and why they shouldn't have had the problem
in the first place.)

Remember what perceptual intent aims to achieve: in lay terms, it attempts
to produce, within the smaller colour gamut (narrower tonal range in our
case) of the print space a rendition of the image which represents "desired
appearance" or even more simply a look which keeps the overall printed look
in balance with the way it looked in the broader space (but adjusted for the
narrower tonal range).  There is no prescription as to how his is to be
done.  One person writing a perceptual ICC profile could decide to manage
the problem differently from another person.  (A Gretag Macbeth perceptual
printer profile could be different to an Xrite profile even if they were fed
the same input data.)  If there are parts of the image which you don't want
altered you can always edit the print version to adjust them back.

(Note that in so doing you are compressing the necessary transitions further
into other parts of the greyscale.  If the end points, ie black and white,
are fixed by the printer/paper/ink's capabilities and you don't want, say
40% to 60% black to be altered then the compression in 0-40% and 60-100%
need to be greater.)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: jt <john.tunley@...>

> 
> Steve,
> 
> In Photoshop I would normally duplicate the image and then compare
> the workspace view with the softproofed view. I would then adjust
> the softproofed view with adjustment layers to match the original
> workspace view as closely as possible, then save that printer
> corrected image.
> 
> In your comment above, you seem to be implying that there is an
> automatic way of achieving this correction within Photoshop's colour
> management. Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks,   John T
> 
>

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.