Digital BW, The Print

Dear Group,

I installed the Piezo system on my 1200 this week, after a couple of
frustrating days with clogs and the banding due to the clogs it is running
well. My first clog free prints however had a different banding pattern. I
call this a linear pattern, more than a band. Feeling overly picky about it
I took out the print exchange package again.

I went over the print exchange prints again with a loupe. I would like to
start a conversation about the various types of output I see and perhaps
have people varify what I'm seeing or tell me where I'm wrong.

My first clog free piezo print has a linear, soft, fine band throughout all
tones and the whole print. It travels in the direction of the print head. I
do not get this banding on prints from this printer with OEM inks.

Exchange prints:

I see a similair banding in all prints from the 1160 using the cone driver,
whether they use cone inks or MIS. I do not see this pattern with the Epson
driver.

I see the exact same linear pattern that I get in prints from the 1200 using
the cone driver, so it is not just my 1200.

I do not see this pattern in Mike's print from the Pro 7000 using Cone's RIP
but in this print I see a very very subtle weave pattern (sort of banding in
both directions but very soft and fine) that I find much nicer than the
1200's banding.  

So is this banding? Is this print head travel? Is this only avoidable if I
were to go to the 7000 with Cone's Pro RIP?  Or go back to the Epson driver?

I see no linear pattern in prints using MIS inks and the Epson driver. I see
very little in the way of dots from 1160's and 1280's using Paul's or Wolf's
curves but do see dot's in the 3000 prints without the loupe.

I read somewhere that the software RIP Mike K was talking about is being
downsized for some of Epson's desktop printers. I wonder if this will help
for the smaller printers to achive dotless prints without the print head
pattern.

I very much like the output from Martin's print, 1280 @ 2880 using MIS  VM.
But I did not want to play with curves just yet...

My output from the 2000P while displaying very subtle dots in the
highlights, does not display any linear pattern at all... One day I hope to
use this printer for monochromes/duo/tritones with non OEM inks. Darn that
metamerism! 

If I migrate the Piezo BW system to a 1280 will this get rid of this wee
linear pattern (banding) issue?

Curious,
Carolyn

PS:  I do not find this at all objectionable from norman viewing distance...
and sorry for being so verbous. ;-)

Carolyn,

I can not speak to the Piezo Plug In, but the Piezo RIP does print 
with the very fine dither that you saw. That is the way the the 
driver lays down the ink. If you look at an Iris print with a loupe, 
you will see the same sort of pattern. Kind of like a fine herring 
bone fabric.

Mike

Hi Carolyn-

I too noticed fine white lines on some, but not all, of the the piezo prints
in the exchange (although I didn't check them with a loupe, just with my
glasses off at my natural focusing distance (8 inches ;-)).  I generally
liked the tonal quality and "presence" of the piezo prints, but this did
trouble me (I couldn't accept it in my own prints.)

Looking forward to a 7000 some day...

Bill

on 12/2/01 6:51 PM, Carolyn  Frayn wrote:

Dear Group,

I installed the Piezo system on my 1200 this week, after a couple of
frustrating days with clogs and the banding due to the clogs it is running
well. My first clog free prints however had a different banding pattern. I
call this a linear pattern, more than a band. Feeling overly picky about it
I took out the print exchange package again.

I went over the print exchange prints again with a loupe. I would like to
start a conversation about the various types of output I see and perhaps
have people varify what I'm seeing or tell me where I'm wrong.

My first clog free piezo print has a linear, soft, fine band throughout all
tones and the whole print. It travels in the direction of the print head. I
do not get this banding on prints from this printer with OEM inks.

Exchange prints:

I see a similair banding in all prints from the 1160 using the cone driver,
whether they use cone inks or MIS. I do not see this pattern with the Epson
driver.

I see the exact same linear pattern that I get in prints from the 1200 using
the cone driver, so it is not just my 1200.

I do not see this pattern in Mike's print from the Pro 7000 using Cone's RIP
but in this print I see a very very subtle weave pattern (sort of banding in
both directions but very soft and fine) that I find much nicer than the
1200's banding.  

So is this banding? Is this print head travel? Is this only avoidable if I
were to go to the 7000 with Cone's Pro RIP?  Or go back to the Epson driver?

I see no linear pattern in prints using MIS inks and the Epson driver. I see
very little in the way of dots from 1160's and 1280's using Paul's or Wolf's
curves but do see dot's in the 3000 prints without the loupe.

I read somewhere that the software RIP Mike K was talking about is being
downsized for some of Epson's desktop printers. I wonder if this will help
for the smaller printers to achive dotless prints without the print head
pattern.

I very much like the output from Martin's print, 1280 @ 2880 using MIS  VM.
But I did not want to play with curves just yet...

My output from the 2000P while displaying very subtle dots in the
highlights, does not display any linear pattern at all... One day I hope to
use this printer for monochromes/duo/tritones with non OEM inks. Darn that
metamerism! 

If I migrate the Piezo BW system to a 1280 will this get rid of this wee
linear pattern (banding) issue?

Curious,
Carolyn

PS:  I do not find this at all objectionable from norman viewing distance...
and sorry for being so verbous. ;-)




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I get these fine white lines and I use the Epson driver, and speaking of
driver, they driver me crazy!

I think it must be some sort of timing error between the head firings and
the transport mechanism. In any case it would appear to be independent of
which driver is used.

They come and go on my machine. Unfortunately they decided to first come as
soon as the warranty expired. :-/

Todd

> Hi Carolyn-
> 
> I too noticed fine white lines on some, but not all, of the the piezo prints
> in the exchange (although I didn't check them with a loupe, just with my
> glasses off at my natural focusing distance (8 inches ;-)).  I generally
> liked the tonal quality and "presence" of the piezo prints, but this did
> trouble me (I couldn't accept it in my own prints.)
> 
> Looking forward to a 7000 some day...
> 
> Bill
> 
> on 12/2/01 6:51 PM, Carolyn  Frayn wrote:
> 
> Dear Group,
> 
> I installed the Piezo system on my 1200 this week, after a couple of
> frustrating days with clogs and the banding due to the clogs it is running
> well. My first clog free prints however had a different banding pattern. I
> call this a linear pattern, more than a band. Feeling overly picky about it
> I took out the print exchange package again.
> 
> I went over the print exchange prints again with a loupe. I would like to
> start a conversation about the various types of output I see and perhaps
> have people varify what I'm seeing or tell me where I'm wrong.
> 
> My first clog free piezo print has a linear, soft, fine band throughout all
> tones and the whole print. It travels in the direction of the print head. I
> do not get this banding on prints from this printer with OEM inks.
> 
> Exchange prints:
> 
> I see a similair banding in all prints from the 1160 using the cone driver,
> whether they use cone inks or MIS. I do not see this pattern with the Epson
> driver.
> 
> I see the exact same linear pattern that I get in prints from the 1200 using
> the cone driver, so it is not just my 1200.
> 
> I do not see this pattern in Mike's print from the Pro 7000 using Cone's RIP
> but in this print I see a very very subtle weave pattern (sort of banding in
> both directions but very soft and fine) that I find much nicer than the
> 1200's banding.  
> 
> So is this banding? Is this print head travel? Is this only avoidable if I
> were to go to the 7000 with Cone's Pro RIP?  Or go back to the Epson driver?
> 
> I see no linear pattern in prints using MIS inks and the Epson driver. I see
> very little in the way of dots from 1160's and 1280's using Paul's or Wolf's
> curves but do see dot's in the 3000 prints without the loupe.
> 
> I read somewhere that the software RIP Mike K was talking about is being
> downsized for some of Epson's desktop printers. I wonder if this will help
> for the smaller printers to achive dotless prints without the print head
> pattern.
> 
> I very much like the output from Martin's print, 1280 @ 2880 using MIS  VM.
> But I did not want to play with curves just yet...
> 
> My output from the 2000P while displaying very subtle dots in the
> highlights, does not display any linear pattern at all... One day I hope to
> use this printer for monochromes/duo/tritones with non OEM inks. Darn that
> metamerism! 
> 
> If I migrate the Piezo BW system to a 1280 will this get rid of this wee
> linear pattern (banding) issue?
> 
> Curious,
> Carolyn
> 
> PS:  I do not find this at all objectionable from norman viewing distance...
> and sorry for being so verbous. ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

With the coming and going of this sort of thing....Could it be changes in the electrical current? I have
noticed in our 2000P, that sometimes we get a very strange pattern in plain areas that *almost* looks like
newton rings, but is not.  They come and go mysteriously and I figured it might be an electrical oddity.  We
only have surge protector not a voltage stabilizer.


Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC

Todd Flashner wrote:

> I get these fine white lines and I use the Epson driver, and speaking of
> driver, they driver me crazy!
>
> I think it must be some sort of timing error between the head firings and
> the transport mechanism. In any case it would appear to be independent of
> which driver is used.
>
> They come and go on my machine. Unfortunately they decided to first come as
> soon as the warranty expired. :-/
>
> Todd
>
> > Hi Carolyn-
> >
> > I too noticed fine white lines on some, but not all, of the the piezo prints
> > in the exchange (although I didn't check them with a loupe, just with my
> > glasses off at my natural focusing distance (8 inches ;-)).  I generally
> > liked the tonal quality and "presence" of the piezo prints, but this did
> > trouble me (I couldn't accept it in my own prints.)
> >
> > Looking forward to a 7000 some day...
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > on 12/2/01 6:51 PM, Carolyn  Frayn wrote:
> >
> > Dear Group,
> >
> > I installed the Piezo system on my 1200 this week, after a couple of
> > frustrating days with clogs and the banding due to the clogs it is running
> > well. My first clog free prints however had a different banding pattern. I
> > call this a linear pattern, more than a band. Feeling overly picky about it
> > I took out the print exchange package again.
> >
> > I went over the print exchange prints again with a loupe. I would like to
> > start a conversation about the various types of output I see and perhaps
> > have people varify what I'm seeing or tell me where I'm wrong.
> >
> > My first clog free piezo print has a linear, soft, fine band throughout all
> > tones and the whole print. It travels in the direction of the print head. I
> > do not get this banding on prints from this printer with OEM inks.
> >
> > Exchange prints:
> >
> > I see a similair banding in all prints from the 1160 using the cone driver,
> > whether they use cone inks or MIS. I do not see this pattern with the Epson
> > driver.
> >
> > I see the exact same linear pattern that I get in prints from the 1200 using
> > the cone driver, so it is not just my 1200.
> >
> > I do not see this pattern in Mike's print from the Pro 7000 using Cone's RIP
> > but in this print I see a very very subtle weave pattern (sort of banding in
> > both directions but very soft and fine) that I find much nicer than the
> > 1200's banding.
> >
> > So is this banding? Is this print head travel? Is this only avoidable if I
> > were to go to the 7000 with Cone's Pro RIP?  Or go back to the Epson driver?
> >
> > I see no linear pattern in prints using MIS inks and the Epson driver. I see
> > very little in the way of dots from 1160's and 1280's using Paul's or Wolf's
> > curves but do see dot's in the 3000 prints without the loupe.
> >
> > I read somewhere that the software RIP Mike K was talking about is being
> > downsized for some of Epson's desktop printers. I wonder if this will help
> > for the smaller printers to achive dotless prints without the print head
> > pattern.
> >
> > I very much like the output from Martin's print, 1280 @ 2880 using MIS  VM.
> > But I did not want to play with curves just yet...
> >
> > My output from the 2000P while displaying very subtle dots in the
> > highlights, does not display any linear pattern at all... One day I hope to
> > use this printer for monochromes/duo/tritones with non OEM inks. Darn that
> > metamerism!
> >
> > If I migrate the Piezo BW system to a 1280 will this get rid of this wee
> > linear pattern (banding) issue?
> >
> > Curious,
> > Carolyn
> >
> > PS:  I do not find this at all objectionable from norman viewing distance...
> > and sorry for being so verbous. ;-)
> >
> >
> >


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harvey,

I think it just has to do with your proximity to the village.  ;-)

Mike

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:
> With the coming and going of this sort of thing....Could it be 
changes in the electrical current? I have
> noticed in our 2000P, that sometimes we get a very strange pattern 
in plain areas that *almost* looks like
> newton rings, but is not.  They come and go mysteriously and I 
figured it might be an electrical oddity.  We
> only have surge protector not a voltage stabilizer.
> 
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> Todd Flashner wrote:
> 
> > I get these fine white lines and I use the Epson driver, and 
speaking of
> > driver, they driver me crazy!
> >
> > I think it must be some sort of timing error between the head 
firings and
> > the transport mechanism. In any case it would appear to be 
independent of
> > which driver is used.
> >
> > They come and go on my machine. Unfortunately they decided to 
first come as
> > soon as the warranty expired. :-/
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > > Hi Carolyn-
> > >
> > > I too noticed fine white lines on some, but not all, of the the 
piezo prints
> > > in the exchange (although I didn't check them with a loupe, 
just with my
> > > glasses off at my natural focusing distance (8 inches ;-)).  I 
generally
> > > liked the tonal quality and "presence" of the piezo prints, but 
this did
> > > trouble me (I couldn't accept it in my own prints.)
> > >
> > > Looking forward to a 7000 some day...
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > on 12/2/01 6:51 PM, Carolyn  Frayn wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Group,
> > >
> > > I installed the Piezo system on my 1200 this week, after a 
couple of
> > > frustrating days with clogs and the banding due to the clogs it 
is running
> > > well. My first clog free prints however had a different banding 
pattern. I
> > > call this a linear pattern, more than a band. Feeling overly 
picky about it
> > > I took out the print exchange package again.
> > >
> > > I went over the print exchange prints again with a loupe. I 
would like to
> > > start a conversation about the various types of output I see 
and perhaps
> > > have people varify what I'm seeing or tell me where I'm wrong.
> > >
> > > My first clog free piezo print has a linear, soft, fine band 
throughout all
> > > tones and the whole print. It travels in the direction of the 
print head. I
> > > do not get this banding on prints from this printer with OEM 
inks.
> > >
> > > Exchange prints:
> > >
> > > I see a similair banding in all prints from the 1160 using the 
cone driver,
> > > whether they use cone inks or MIS. I do not see this pattern 
with the Epson
> > > driver.
> > >
> > > I see the exact same linear pattern that I get in prints from 
the 1200 using
> > > the cone driver, so it is not just my 1200.
> > >
> > > I do not see this pattern in Mike's print from the Pro 7000 
using Cone's RIP
> > > but in this print I see a very very subtle weave pattern (sort 
of banding in
> > > both directions but very soft and fine) that I find much nicer 
than the
> > > 1200's banding.
> > >
> > > So is this banding? Is this print head travel? Is this only 
avoidable if I
> > > were to go to the 7000 with Cone's Pro RIP?  Or go back to the 
Epson driver?
> > >
> > > I see no linear pattern in prints using MIS inks and the Epson 
driver. I see
> > > very little in the way of dots from 1160's and 1280's using 
Paul's or Wolf's
> > > curves but do see dot's in the 3000 prints without the loupe.
> > >
> > > I read somewhere that the software RIP Mike K was talking about 
is being
> > > downsized for some of Epson's desktop printers. I wonder if 
this will help
> > > for the smaller printers to achive dotless prints without the 
print head
> > > pattern.
> > >
> > > I very much like the output from Martin's print, 1280 @ 2880 
using MIS  VM.
> > > But I did not want to play with curves just yet...
> > >
> > > My output from the 2000P while displaying very subtle dots in 
the
> > > highlights, does not display any linear pattern at all... One 
day I hope to
> > > use this printer for monochromes/duo/tritones with non OEM 
inks. Darn that
> > > metamerism!
> > >
> > > If I migrate the Piezo BW system to a 1280 will this get rid of 
this wee
> > > linear pattern (banding) issue?
> > >
> > > Curious,
> > > Carolyn
> > >
> > > PS:  I do not find this at all objectionable from norman 
viewing distance...

> > > and sorry for being so verbous. ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carolyn,

This evening I did a bit of printing and noticed that the dither 
pattern of the Piezo RIp is dependent upon the paper used. For 
example, with BrightCube Eclipse Satine and Legion Photo Matte I get 
totally smooth tonal areas with no dither pattern at all.

Mike

If the printer is under warranty - change it. Don't waste time/ink trying to
sort it.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Frayn" <carolyn@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:51 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Exchange Print Comparisons


> Dear Group,
>
> I installed the Piezo system on my 1200 this week, after a couple of
> frustrating days with clogs and the banding due to the clogs it is running
> well. My first clog free prints however had a different banding pattern. I
> call this a linear pattern, more than a band. Feeling overly picky about
it
> I took out the print exchange package again.
>
> I went over the print exchange prints again with a loupe. I would like to
> start a conversation about the various types of output I see and perhaps
> have people varify what I'm seeing or tell me where I'm wrong.
>
> My first clog free piezo print has a linear, soft, fine band throughout
all
> tones and the whole print. It travels in the direction of the print head.
I
> do not get this banding on prints from this printer with OEM inks.
>
> Exchange prints:
>
> I see a similair banding in all prints from the 1160 using the cone
driver,
> whether they use cone inks or MIS. I do not see this pattern with the
Epson
> driver.
>
> I see the exact same linear pattern that I get in prints from the 1200
using
> the cone driver, so it is not just my 1200.
>
> I do not see this pattern in Mike's print from the Pro 7000 using Cone's
RIP
> but in this print I see a very very subtle weave pattern (sort of banding
in
> both directions but very soft and fine) that I find much nicer than the
> 1200's banding.
>
> So is this banding? Is this print head travel? Is this only avoidable if I
> were to go to the 7000 with Cone's Pro RIP?  Or go back to the Epson
driver?
>
> I see no linear pattern in prints using MIS inks and the Epson driver. I
see
> very little in the way of dots from 1160's and 1280's using Paul's or
Wolf's
> curves but do see dot's in the 3000 prints without the loupe.
>
> I read somewhere that the software RIP Mike K was talking about is being
> downsized for some of Epson's desktop printers. I wonder if this will help
> for the smaller printers to achive dotless prints without the print head
> pattern.
>
> I very much like the output from Martin's print, 1280 @ 2880 using MIS
VM.
> But I did not want to play with curves just yet...
>
> My output from the 2000P while displaying very subtle dots in the
> highlights, does not display any linear pattern at all... One day I hope
to
> use this printer for monochromes/duo/tritones with non OEM inks. Darn that
> metamerism!
>
> If I migrate the Piezo BW system to a 1280 will this get rid of this wee
> linear pattern (banding) issue?
>
> Curious,
> Carolyn
>
> PS:  I do not find this at all objectionable from norman viewing
distance...
> and sorry for being so verbous. ;-)
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Mike K wrote:
> I can not speak to the Piezo Plug In, but the Piezo RIP does print
> with the very fine dither that you saw. That is the way the the
> driver lays down the ink. If you look at an Iris print with a loupe,
> you will see the same sort of pattern. Kind of like a fine herring
> bone fabric.

Thanks very much Mike... I thought perhaps my eyes were playing tricks after
looking at these prints much too closely these many days!

> This evening I did a bit of printing and noticed that the dither
> pattern of the Piezo RIp is dependent upon the paper used. For
> example, with BrightCube Eclipse Satine and Legion Photo Matte I get
> totally smooth tonal areas with no dither pattern at all.

I will be doing a lot of experimenting as you all have done for so long...
thank you very much for your observations Mike.

I am still concerned by this pattern I'm seeing. I guess it is the dither
pattern of the Piezo plug in as I do see it in the Piezo prints and not the
Epson driver prints.  It is not random, it is not a clog problem as those
I've become very familair with throughout the years, whether in my color
print or neutral with OEM inks.

Best, Carolyn

Todd wrote:
> I get these fine white lines and I use the Epson driver, and speaking of
> driver, they driver me crazy!

I don't get them with the Epson driver... but I've not used any inks with
the Epson driver other than OEM until now...  The whole thing is drivering
me towards the edge.


Carolyn

Julian, I know this has been hashed over enough but please tell me (as it is
new to me) how do you tell Epson something is wrong when the printer prints
beautifully with their inks and driver?  It only shows this linear pattern
with the Piezo driver and inks.

TIA,
Carolyn

> 
> If the printer is under warranty - change it. Don't waste time/ink trying to
> sort it.
> 
> Julian

Don't tell them! All I did was to say that i washaving clogging and banding
problems. On the phone they asked me if i had done a cleaning cycle. I told
them I';d been doing batched of 4 cleaming cycles every 4 hours for two
weeks, combined with wicking and windex procedures. A new printer arrived
the next day and the picked the old on eup at the same time.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Frayn" <carolyn@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Exchange Print Comparisons


> Julian, I know this has been hashed over enough but please tell me (as it
is
> new to me) how do you tell Epson something is wrong when the printer
prints
> beautifully with their inks and driver?  It only shows this linear pattern
> with the Piezo driver and inks.
>
> TIA,
> Carolyn
>
> >
> > If the printer is under warranty - change it. Don't waste time/ink
trying to
> > sort it.
> >
> > Julian
>
>
>
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Carolyn Frayn wrote:
> 
> Julian, I know this has been hashed over enough but please tell me (as it is
> new to me) how do you tell Epson something is wrong when the printer prints
> beautifully with their inks and driver?  It only shows this linear pattern
> with the Piezo driver and inks.
> 
> TIA,
> Carolyn
> 

Carolyn;

I feel your pain !

If your Epson 1200 consistently prints beautifully with Epson inks and
driver I don't think it is fair that you would send it back to Epson for
repair, when the problem is not with their printer.

Now, before the Cone user jump all over me.... I know there are LOTS of
user who are very happy and get excellent results with Cone products!
But there is a significant number of people who have many problems with
their system.

This was my experience:

I had an Epson 1160 that just like your 1200 printed tons of band free
clog free prints with the Epson driver and OEM inks. 

I then bought the Piezography starter kit, loaded my 1160 and had many
clogging problems. Once was able to get rid of the clogs I still had
banding with the Cone driver and Cone inks. I then resorted to using the
Cone inks with the Epson driver and some Curves. Using the Epson driver
with its Error Diffusion turned on eliminated all the banding on most
images but I could still see micro banding on some images. I can not
tell you the amount of time I spent on trying to work this out! At this
point I thought that perhaps there was a deficiency with my printer and
thought about sending it back to Epson for repair. Something also told
me to NOT send it back because the printer worked so well when I was
printing with the Epson OEM inks and driver. In the end ... I did not
send it back.

A few months ago after reading lots of posts on here I decided to try
MIS VM inks with the very same Epson 1160. The results: no clogs.. no
banding.. no micro banding.... nice prints! I think my success with the
MIS inks and Epson driver <Pauls curves>  boils down to two things. (1)
The MIS inks are a lot less prone to clogging. (2) The Epson driver with
its error diffusion is a lot more forgiving.

-Jeff Magidson

>
>
>A few months ago after reading lots of posts on here I decided to try
>MIS VM inks with the very same Epson 1160. The results: no clogs.. no
>banding.. no micro banding.... nice prints! I think my success with the
>MIS inks and Epson driver <Pauls curves>  boils down to two things. (1)
>The MIS inks are a lot less prone to clogging. (2) The Epson driver with
>its error diffusion is a lot more forgiving.
>
>-Jeff Magidson

FWIW, a well respected member of the ink jet community recently 
posted to the Epson List that Conetech are reformulating Piezo inks 
to cure the clogging, message available in the archive. Who knows, 
now that Mac OSX is based on Unix some enterprising programmers might 
team up with users to produce an affordable open RIP which will work 
with any ink set. Exciting times.

I would also like to join Julian in thanking Mike and numerous others 
on this List for sharing their real world experience with ink jet 
printing.

Jerry.

Check out this new review on this medium format scanner if interested

http://www.kenrockwell.com/minolta/mp.htm

Adam 

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> FWIW, a well respected member of the ink jet community recently
> posted to the Epson List that Conetech are reformulating Piezo inks
> to cure the clogging, message available in the archive. Who knows,
> now that Mac OSX is based on Unix some enterprising programmers might
> team up with users to produce an affordable open RIP which will work
> with any ink set. Exciting times.

I'm asking not stating. Isn't the Epson driver really an affordable RIP
which works with any inkset, provided proper separation curves are applied
to the file?

I guess I'm missing what those of you who are asking for an open system, or
new RIPs, see on the horizon that will alter the landscape dramatically.

As I see it, and I'm hardly an authority, the Piezo driver (RIP) was
revolutionary in the age when the Epson 3000 was their top of the line
printer, which has an inherently coarse dither due to droplet size. But from
what I gather (mostly on this list), the later Epsons are capable of dither
patters at least as fine as Piezo. Let's call it equal-but-different? They
seem to "artifact" differently, but by and large at similar viewing
distances, they show equal overall "quality".

In this perspective I see us as already having an open system, which is
already being exploited by the likes of Lyson, Spectratones, Brandon, Wolf,
and perhaps most prodigiously, Roark. My sense is that the next technology
that gets applied to current inks and printers will be but one one way the
landscape will alter, but the spectrum includes: A) people putting the sweat
into working with the prevailing open RIP (Epson driver) through innovative
workflows, B) further refinements of the prevailing Cone alternative
(PiezoBW, which is periodically updated), C) new printers with different
heads and/or transport mechanisms, D) other third party add-on RIPS and
drivers, E) new inks.

My personal feeling is that A, B, and D, will prove the most cost effective
and immediate of the five, E holds the most long-term promise, and all five
of these factors need to be executed in conjunction with the others, which
takes time.

Todd

Jerry,

Are you sure that person was talking about the BW inks?

Please - I have _no_ extra information here that I am in some way hinting at
but can't say. I can't add anything because I know of no changes in
formulation. However, I am posting this because the only post I could see on
the Epson list referred to the Color Piezo and it's 'sometimes' problematic
yellow. (where 'sometimes' means, some people work fine with it, some do
not).

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: meander@... [mailto:meander@...]
> >
> >A few months ago after reading lots of posts on here I decided to try
> >MIS VM inks with the very same Epson 1160. The results: no clogs.. no
> >banding.. no micro banding.... nice prints! I think my success with the
> >MIS inks and Epson driver <Pauls curves>  boils down to two things. (1)
> >The MIS inks are a lot less prone to clogging. (2) The Epson driver with
> >its error diffusion is a lot more forgiving.
> >
> >-Jeff Magidson
>
> FWIW, a well respected member of the ink jet community recently
> posted to the Epson List that Conetech are reformulating Piezo inks
> to cure the clogging, message available in the archive. Who knows,
> now that Mac OSX is based on Unix some enterprising programmers might
> team up with users to produce an affordable open RIP which will work
> with any ink set. Exciting times.
>
> I would also like to join Julian in thanking Mike and numerous others
> on this List for sharing their real world experience with ink jet
> printing.
>
> Jerry.

>Jerry,
>
>Are you sure that person was talking about the BW inks?
>
>e the only post I could see on
>the Epson list referred to the Color Piezo and it's 'sometimes' problematic
>yellow. (where 'sometimes' means, some people work fine with it, some do
>not).
>
>Nij

Nij,

The impression I got was clogging is a problem with both BW and Color 
Piezo and Conetech are looking into it.
As you know, the PiezoBW carts I bought from you produced banding 
after delivering 2 perfect prints and, after 3 days of double 
checking I could not solve the problem. Rightly or wrongly I have to 
assume some form of clogging (micro clogging?) was the problem 
because when I flushed and reinstalled the epson inks, no banding.  I 
dont use CIS so thats out of the my equation although other people 
think using CIS is a factor.
Speaking only from my own experience it will remain a mystery until 
Conetech release a definitive statement.

Sorry Nij but:

(where 'sometimes' means, some people work fine with it, some do
not).

Wither referring to BW or Color, this not good enough for my needs 
which are printing to a deadline. Already lost one chance of 
exhibiting prints due to" clogging" or whatever it was.

I still think Piezography is a mile stone in ink jet printing but.......

Regards,

Jerry.

Hi Jerry,

I'm sorry, I don't think I was aware that you had not managed to get _any_
printing again off those carts - but I can't double-check the emails you
sent me as they were recently casualties of a late spring-clean of my email
software. I do recall that you decided to take a break from BW, but I don't
recall why exactly.

My own experience with carts has been rather limited, I saw enough after the
first two sets to get the CIS thing going - though I realise this is not
necessarily an option for some people. I think that the way people perceive
problems with Piezo has changed dramatically over the last few months, and I
will act now to ensure, for example, that my stock of carts is wherever
possible stored 'right way up' and packed in such a way to make it a little
more likely that they will not be upside-down for too long during postage
(of course, this would be rather difficult to guarantee).

From the way you describe things now, I would be inclined to suspect that
you were experiencing a settling problem - yes, that means I think (whatever
the rights-and-wrongs of it) the ink is viscous enough that simply having it
the right way up does not mean the ink goes to the right place quickly!  For
comparison purposes... the ONLY time I personally have experienced problems
with the Piezo Color carts on my 1160 was one day when I was in a rush and I
installed a cart that had been wrong-way up in stock. It took a day to
clear, some effort at first, and when that didn't pay off I just left it,
and that cleared it - though of course I swore a bit in the meantime. Every
single cart installed since then has been fine; though I am not a msssive
high volume user.

I will contact you off-list to discuss options...

Best regards,

Nij

> From: meander@... [mailto:meander@...]
>
>
> >Jerry,
> >
> >Are you sure that person was talking about the BW inks?
> >
> >e the only post I could see on
> >the Epson list referred to the Color Piezo and it's 'sometimes'
> problematic
> >yellow. (where 'sometimes' means, some people work fine with it, some do
> >not).
> >
> >Nij
>
> Nij,
>
> The impression I got was clogging is a problem with both BW and Color
> Piezo and Conetech are looking into it.
> As you know, the PiezoBW carts I bought from you produced banding
> after delivering 2 perfect prints and, after 3 days of double
> checking I could not solve the problem. Rightly or wrongly I have to
> assume some form of clogging (micro clogging?) was the problem
> because when I flushed and reinstalled the epson inks, no banding.  I
> dont use CIS so thats out of the my equation although other people
> think using CIS is a factor.
> Speaking only from my own experience it will remain a mystery until
> Conetech release a definitive statement.
>
> Sorry Nij but:
>
> (where 'sometimes' means, some people work fine with it, some do
> not).
>
> Wither referring to BW or Color, this not good enough for my needs
> which are printing to a deadline. Already lost one chance of
> exhibiting prints due to" clogging" or whatever it was.
>
> I still think Piezography is a mile stone in ink jet printing but.......
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry.

Mahesi,  Thanks for the Rockwell link.  I've had my Minolta 
scanner for a month or so now and am not quite as gushy about 
it.  I've really got to run some test scans vs. my friends Nikon 
8000.  I know it is not as clean as a $30,000 Scitex.

I am scanning negatives almost exclusively.  Rockwell scans 
slides.  The transparencies that I've scanned look fantastic, but 
I'm not about to stop shooting negative film.

I have two major complaints about scans of my b&w and color 
negs.  

1.  They look grainier than silver or color chemical prints of the 
same.  GEM helps improve this at the cost of very long scan 
times.  I've read that this grainy appearance is called "grain 
aliasing" and is aparent in most prosumer scanners.

2.  I am occasionally getting shadow noise that varies from 
posterization, to tiny dot patterns, to undescribable crappiness.  
This is minimized at 16X oversampling.  That's another time 
expanding process.  I've yet to determine if this kind of shadow 
wierdness happens in other scanners.

The Minolta Pro could be a great scanner if my two problems are 
common to all scanners in that price range and if the scan times 
were shorter.

Yours, Frank

http://www.culturalvisions.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mahesi Caplan-Faust" 
<caplan@n...> wrote:
> Check out this new review on this medium format scanner if 
interested
> 
> http://www.kenrockwell.com/minolta/mp.htm
> 
> Adam 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 
24/11/01

> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just wanted to add some observations of my own as to what Carolyn 
is seeing. I think it is better to call them "linear artifacts" if 
you will since I am not talking true banding that is easily seen at 
normal viewing distances.

First, the linear patters, light or dark, only appear in smooth areas 
of the image. Any kind of small pattern to the image will tend to 
break them up and render them invisible even under magnification. 
Even a moderate grain pattern will mask it. This may not be 
completely true if the linear pattern is very strong but generally 
explains why some prints show the pattern and others do no. This is 
why Carolyn didn't see any linear artifacts in my print. It is very 
grainy.

Second, the patterns tend to be limited to a certain tonal ranges. On 
my 1200 with Piezo it was white or light toned banding as you 
describe in the 25% to 50% tonal range. Using the Epson driver on my 
1280 the banding is a dark or corduroy banding in the 60% to 80% 
range. Using the Piezo driver (with the MIS VM inks installed) I get 
the least banding with dark banding in the very darkest tones 90% to 
100%. All of them have a faint look of linearity in the direction of 
head travel.

Third, it is not always consistent. Sometimes it is there and 
sometimes it is not. Some lucky people seem to have perfect printers 
and get perfect Piezo prints without any banding ever. Very 
frustrating situation.

Overall I think that the pattern or patterns are always there it is a 
matter of factors that determine how noticeable they are. The nature 
of the image and the paper used are big factors.

I think the reason we do not see these patterns with the OEM inks is 
the difference between dyes and carbon pigment inks. The dyes may 
blend together more smoothly and penetrate the paper more. The 
pigment inks may not mix as well and sit mostly on top of the paper 
revealing a "spray" pattern in the way the ink is laid down that was 
never anticipated by the designers. Some one tried pigment inks in a 
2000P a while ago and reported seeing less of this linear pattern 
than in other printers.

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Dear Group,
> 
> I installed the Piezo system on my 1200 this week, after a couple of
> frustrating days with clogs and the banding due to the clogs it is 
running
> well. My first clog free prints however had a different banding 
pattern. I
> call this a linear pattern, more than a band. Feeling overly picky 
about it
> I took out the print exchange package again.
> 
> I went over the print exchange prints again with a loupe. I would 
like to
> start a conversation about the various types of output I see and 
perhaps
> have people varify what I'm seeing or tell me where I'm wrong.
> 
> My first clog free piezo print has a linear, soft, fine band 
throughout all
> tones and the whole print. It travels in the direction of the print 
head. I
> do not get this banding on prints from this printer with OEM inks.
> 
> Exchange prints:
> 
> I see a similair banding in all prints from the 1160 using the cone 
driver,
> whether they use cone inks or MIS. I do not see this pattern with 
the Epson
> driver.
> 
> I see the exact same linear pattern that I get in prints from the 
1200 using
> the cone driver, so it is not just my 1200.
> 
> I do not see this pattern in Mike's print from the Pro 7000 using 
Cone's RIP
> but in this print I see a very very subtle weave pattern (sort of 
banding in
> both directions but very soft and fine) that I find much nicer than 
the
> 1200's banding.  
> 
> So is this banding? Is this print head travel? Is this only 
avoidable if I
> were to go to the 7000 with Cone's Pro RIP?  Or go back to the 
Epson driver?
> 
> I see no linear pattern in prints using MIS inks and the Epson 
driver. I see
> very little in the way of dots from 1160's and 1280's using Paul's 
or Wolf's
> curves but do see dot's in the 3000 prints without the loupe.
> 
> I read somewhere that the software RIP Mike K was talking about is 
being
> downsized for some of Epson's desktop printers. I wonder if this 
will help
> for the smaller printers to achive dotless prints without the print 
head
> pattern.
> 
> I very much like the output from Martin's print, 1280 @ 2880 using 
MIS  VM.
> But I did not want to play with curves just yet...
> 
> My output from the 2000P while displaying very subtle dots in the
> highlights, does not display any linear pattern at all... One day I 
hope to
> use this printer for monochromes/duo/tritones with non OEM inks. 
Darn that
> metamerism! 
> 
> If I migrate the Piezo BW system to a 1280 will this get rid of 
this wee
> linear pattern (banding) issue?
> 
> Curious,
> Carolyn
> 
> PS:  I do not find this at all objectionable from norman viewing 
distance...
> and sorry for being so verbous. ;-)