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2005-07-12 by John Moody
If someone already has i1 photo for profile creation does this new feature produce icc profiles any differently, other than being grayscale only? I thought I recalled Steve mention that this new feature would do something that even ProfileMaker 5 can\ufffdt do. I don\ufffdt quite understand what that would be. John
2005-07-12 by Steve Kale
A slightly abstract way of thinking about this may help. Think in CIELab
terms. The program Roy wrote profiles only the L* axis - luminance. It
doesn't care about a or b channels and in fact thinks they don't exist. Of
course the printers produce non-zero a and b images - there aren't perfectly
neutral inks and paper has a hue anyway - and we can control these values a
number of ways, eg by our ink choices in QTR. A profiler such as PM 5 always
thinks in full colour terms and profiles the results generated from patches
of RGB or CMYK input in terms of both luminance and hue. Here we just have
luminance input and measure luminance/reflectance generated. It is hue
agnostic and we manage hue not with the profile but manually by ink
selection/sliders or whatever (or not at all in the case of, say, black
only).
The closest application to this, that I am aware of, is ColorshopX's
Grayscale Builder. However this program is a pain to use as it can't take
readings as input and the only way to change the shape of the profile tonal
response curve is via a transfer function which is not that intuitive.
Roy's program is a little wonder because it can read actual patches produced
from your particular printer with your particular ink and workflow.
So, once again, you are profiling luminance only ("contrast" shall we say)
and you are not profiling "colour" in the way PM5 or EyeOne Match etc do.
The profile allows you to use CM to manage the tonal compression from file
to print. Think of it as being half way between No Colour Management (Same
as Source) and full blown colour management in the colour printing sense.
Let's say you like the look of black only printing. One of the problems
with black only printing is that the greyscale produced by this workflow has
very uneven luminance change from blackest to whitest. You have to mess
with curves to get a progression that makes any sense and it is not
intuitive how the curves should look when looking at your original step
wedge. You could use Roy's program to simply profile the luminance axis of
the black only step wedge (no curves), ie to profile the luminance of the
print space. Then you could soft proof with this profile and convert your
image from your workspace to this print profile when printing. You will
likely like the tonal management out-of-the-box and if not then the
adjustments will be less severe and can be soft proofed as you do them.> From: John Moody <moodymz3@yahoo.com> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:14:07 -0400 > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Digital BW] QTR icc generation > > If someone already has i1 photo for profile creation does this new feature > produce icc profiles any differently, other than being grayscale only? > > I thought I recalled Steve mention that this new feature would do something > that even ProfileMaker 5 can¹t do. I don¹t quite understand what that would > be. > > John >
2005-07-12 by Roy Harrington
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@y...> wrote: > If someone already has i1 photo for profile creation does this new feature > produce icc profiles any differently, other than being grayscale only? > > I thought I recalled Steve mention that this new feature would do something > that even ProfileMaker 5 can't do. I don't quite understand what that would > be. > > John Essentially that's main difference -- its grayscale instead of RGB. One big advantage of that is going from 3 dimensions to just 1. The typical target sheet for RGB has about 200+ patches, but that works out to only about 6x6x6 or 6 samples per dimension. So 21 steps in one dimension is a lot more accurate -- which is impractical in 3 dimensions. Roy
2005-07-12 by Tom Moore
Roy Could you provide the format of the file expected by your ICC profile generator? Since it doesn't deal with hue, I might be able to create the required file using a combination of Excel and my x-rite 810. Tom Moore
> -----Original Message----- > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roy > Harrington > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 12:23 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR icc generation > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" > <moodymz3@y...> wrote: > > If someone already has i1 photo for profile creation does this new > feature > > produce icc profiles any differently, other than being grayscale only? > > > > I thought I recalled Steve mention that this new feature would do > something > > that even ProfileMaker 5 can't do. I don't quite understand what that > would > > be. > > > > John > > Essentially that's main difference -- its grayscale instead of RGB. > One big advantage of that is going from 3 dimensions to just 1. The > typical > target sheet for RGB has about 200+ patches, but that works out to only > about 6x6x6 or 6 samples per dimension. So 21 steps in one dimension > is a lot more accurate -- which is impractical in 3 dimensions. > > Roy > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from > the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files > section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
2005-07-12 by Steve Kale
I think Roy may be travelling. I will email you one off-list.
> From: Tom Moore <r.t.moore@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:27:37 -0400 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QTR icc generation > > Roy > > Could you provide the format of the file expected by your ICC profile > generator? Since it doesn't deal with hue, I might be able to create the > required file using a combination of Excel and my x-rite 810. > > Tom Moore > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com >> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roy >> Harrington >> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 12:23 PM >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR icc generation >> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" >> <moodymz3@y...> wrote: >>> If someone already has i1 photo for profile creation does this new >> feature >>> produce icc profiles any differently, other than being grayscale only? >>> >>> I thought I recalled Steve mention that this new feature would do >> something >>> that even ProfileMaker 5 can't do. I don't quite understand what that >> would >>> be. >>> >>> John >> >> Essentially that's main difference -- its grayscale instead of RGB. >> One big advantage of that is going from 3 dimensions to just 1. The >> typical >> target sheet for RGB has about 200+ patches, but that works out to only >> about 6x6x6 or 6 samples per dimension. So 21 steps in one dimension >> is a lot more accurate -- which is impractical in 3 dimensions. >> >> Roy
2005-07-12 by Johnny Eades
Steve, Could you send me the same file you're sending to Tom. I also use an x-rite 810 Your friend in Photography, Johnny --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote: > I think Roy may be travelling. I will email you one off-list. > > > > From: Tom Moore <r.t.moore@r...> > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:27:37 -0400 > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QTR icc generation > > > > Roy > > > > Could you provide the format of the file expected by your ICC profile > > generator? Since it doesn't deal with hue, I might be able to create the > > required file using a combination of Excel and my x-rite 810. > > > > Tom Moore > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > >> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roy > >> Harrington > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 12:23 PM > >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR icc generation > >> > >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" > >> <moodymz3@y...> wrote: > >>> If someone already has i1 photo for profile creation does this new > >> feature > >>> produce icc profiles any differently, other than being grayscale only? > >>> > >>> I thought I recalled Steve mention that this new feature would do > >> something > >>> that even ProfileMaker 5 can't do. I don't quite understand what that > >> would > >>> be. > >>> > >>> John > >> > >> Essentially that's main difference -- its grayscale instead of RGB. > >> One big advantage of that is going from 3 dimensions to just 1. The > >> typical > >> target sheet for RGB has about 200+ patches, but that works out to only > >> about 6x6x6 or 6 samples per dimension. So 21 steps in one dimension
> >> is a lot more accurate -- which is impractical in 3 dimensions. > >> > >> Roy
2005-07-12 by John Moody
Roy, Thanks, that is easy to understand in those terms. I have just played around in photoshop using the profile out of i1 match and QTR generated from the same measure file. I think Im going to really like this tool! Steve, Thanks for your response. You made your points clearly. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Roy Harrington Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 12:23 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR icc generation --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@y...> wrote: > If someone already has i1 photo for profile creation does this new feature > produce icc profiles any differently, other than being grayscale only? > > I thought I recalled Steve mention that this new feature would do something > that even ProfileMaker 5 can't do. I don't quite understand what that would > be. > > John Essentially that's main difference -- its grayscale instead of RGB. One big advantage of that is going from 3 dimensions to just 1. The typical target sheet for RGB has about 200+ patches, but that works out to only about 6x6x6 or 6 samples per dimension. So 21 steps in one dimension is a lot more accurate -- which is impractical in 3 dimensions. Roy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-07-12 by Roy Harrington
I am about the leave but here's a sample. The only important lines are the data lines - they start with a digit. Then column 3 is the Gray value and column 7 is the Lab_L readings. Any number of steps are allowed in any order. Any white space separates the columns. My plan is to allow density at some point too. Toolcrib looks like the more obvious output format for the x-rite devices. Roy LGOROWLENGTH 1 CREATED "7/21/2003" # Time: 12:57 INSTRUMENTATION "eye-one" MEASUREMENT_SOURCE ""Illumination=D50 ObserverAngle=2° WhiteBase=Absolute Filter=No"" KEYWORD "SampleID" KEYWORD "SAMPLE_NAME" NUMBER_OF_FIELDS 9 BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT SampleID SAMPLE_NAME GRAY XYZ_X XYZ_Y XYZ_Z LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B END_DATA_FORMAT NUMBER_OF_SETS 21 BEGIN_DATA 1 A1 0.00 90.30 93.00 83.24 97.23 1.14 -5.38 2 B1 5.00 81.48 83.75 73.66 93.34 1.40 -4.07 3 C1 10.00 72.64 74.52 64.14 89.17 1.65 -2.59 4 D1 15.00 64.02 65.53 55.03 84.76 1.91 -1.04 5 E1 20.00 56.26 57.46 47.10 80.44 2.12 0.36 6 F1 25.00 50.08 51.05 41.01 76.71 2.31 1.41 7 G1 30.00 43.86 44.60 34.99 72.63 2.50 2.54 8 H1 35.00 37.74 38.29 29.29 68.23 2.67 3.60 9 I1 40.00 32.45 32.85 24.73 64.04 2.77 4.16 10 J1 45.00 27.61 27.90 20.62 59.80 2.84 4.69 11 K1 50.00 23.84 24.05 17.57 56.14 2.87 4.93 12 L1 55.00 20.16 20.31 14.71 52.18 2.85 4.97 13 M1 60.00 16.91 17.04 12.35 48.31 2.71 4.68 14 N1 65.00 13.62 13.72 9.98 43.83 2.50 4.24 15 O1 70.00 11.01 11.10 8.10 39.74 2.31 3.86 16 P1 75.00 8.96 9.04 6.59 36.05 2.14 3.59 17 Q1 80.00 7.10 7.16 5.22 32.16 1.96 3.32 18 R1 85.00 5.56 5.61 4.11 28.40 1.75 2.97 19 S1 90.00 4.32 4.36 3.18 24.83 1.64 2.85 20 T1 95.00 2.92 2.95 2.21 19.86 1.24 2.02 21 U1 100.00 2.04 2.08 1.56 15.89 0.92 1.70 END_DATA --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> Steve, > > Could you send me the same file you're sending to Tom. I also use an > x-rite 810 > > Your friend in Photography, > > Johnny >