Digital BW, The Print

Thanks!

Scott

Good info here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/duotone.shtml

And here:

http://www.kenleegallery.com/bronze.htm

And GORGOUS prints here:


http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/gallery/mono.html


Hope that helps,

Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Scott McLoughlin 
<scott@a...> wrote:

> Thanks!
> 
> Scott

I was looking yesterday on Google for information on duotoning with
UT2, but I didn't find anything.  Got any pointers?

Thanks ...

On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 06:04:44PM -0000, scott_now_coming wrote:
> Good info here:
> 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/duotone.shtml
> 
> And here:
> 
> http://www.kenleegallery.com/bronze.htm
> 
> And GORGOUS prints here:
> 
> 
> http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/gallery/mono.html
> 
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Scott McLoughlin 
> <scott@a...> wrote:
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Sorry Ben, I can't help ya' there. I don't use UT2, only the EZ inks 
in a C86.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ben Rosengart 
<yahoo.com@n...> wrote:
> I was looking yesterday on Google for information on duotoning with
> UT2, but I didn't find anything.  Got any pointers?
> 
> Thanks ...
> 
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 06:04:44PM -0000, scott_now_coming wrote:
> > Good info here:
> > 
> > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/duotone.shtml
> > 
> > And here:
> > 
> > http://www.kenleegallery.com/bronze.htm
> > 
> > And GORGOUS prints here:
> > 
> > 
> > http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/gallery/mono.html
> > 
> > 
> > Hope that helps,
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Scott 
McLoughlin 
> > <scott@a...> wrote:
> > > Thanks!
> > > 
> > > Scott
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may 
be removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? 
in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?
OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL 
NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE 
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> 
> -- 
>  Ben Rosengart                                          ben@n...
>        "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
>         good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
>         but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

> I was looking yesterday on Google for information on duotoning with
> UT2, but I didn't find anything.  Got any pointers?

There's an excellent article on duotoning in general at the Luminous 
Landscape web site www.luminouslandscape.com/tutorials/duotone.shtml. 
However, your ability to duotone is going to be quite limited with the UT2 
inks since they're not full color inks.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:53 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Newbie question - what is duotone?


Sorry Ben, I can't help ya' there. I don't use UT2, only the EZ inks
in a C86.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ben Rosengart
<yahoo.com@n...> wrote:
> I was looking yesterday on Google for information on duotoning with
> UT2, but I didn't find anything.  Got any pointers?
>
> Thanks ...
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 06:04:44PM -0000, scott_now_coming wrote:
> > Good info here:
> >
> > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/duotone.shtml
> >
> > And here:
> >
> > http://www.kenleegallery.com/bronze.htm
> >
> > And GORGOUS prints here:
> >
> >
> > http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/gallery/mono.html
> >
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Scott
McLoughlin
> > <scott@a...> wrote:
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
visiting this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
messages to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may
be removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the
group Owner and Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines?
in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?
OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL
NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv)
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> -- 
>  Ben Rosengart                                          ben@n...
>        "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
>         good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
>         but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

> ... your ability to duotone is going to be quite limited with the UT2
> inks since they're not full color inks.
> ...

You can do what I call split toning with the variable-tone inksets.  One
image that I've used cool and warm toned inks is at
http://home1.gte.net/res0a2zt/Whalers.html .

With non-feathered selections you can apply one curve in one area, and a
second curve in the inverse selection area.  With feathered selections, I've
had better luck making a duplicate image, applying one curve to each, and
then cloning over from one to the other in one 100% sweep.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Geez, Paul, that's beautiful. I am reminded that you are not just a guy
designing ink sets but also a spectacularly gifted photographer. I gotta
make a habit of revisiting folk's sites more often...

Matthew Born


On 7/28/05 12:22 PM, "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com"
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> You can do what I call split toning with the variable-tone inksets.  One
> image that I've used cool and warm toned inks is at
> http://home1.gte.net/res0a2zt/Whalers.html .
> 
> With non-feathered selections you can apply one curve in one area, and a
> second curve in the inverse selection area.  With feathered selections, I've
> had better luck making a duplicate image, applying one curve to each, and
> then cloning over from one to the other in one 100% sweep.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 06:15:38PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> With non-feathered selections you can apply one curve in one area, and a
> second curve in the inverse selection area.  With feathered selections, I've
> had better luck making a duplicate image, applying one curve to each, and
> then cloning over from one to the other in one 100% sweep.

Can you explain that last step a little more explicitly?  Is it
just a copy and paste of the entire image?

Thanks.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Ben,

As a matter of fact, an image just came out of the 2200 with a split tone.

Here is my procedure.  

(The reason I work this way is, in part, because the tone curves tend to
have problems if they are not on the top layer, and, in part, because I
regularly work with duplicate images and cloning.  So, this procedure is
fast and familiar to me.  There are no doubt other ways to do it.)

First I make a selection of what areas I want, for example, cool.  I save
the selection, of course.  In the one I just printed the selection had large
areas of feathering or less than 100% opacity (of the mask).  

Second, I make a duplicate image -- both should be converted to RGB before
the curves are applied.  

Third, I apply the cool curve to the duplicate and the warm curve to the
original.  

Fourth I align the clone tool at (.001, .001) or whatever your "Information"
palette says the upper left hand corner of the image is.  Have the clone
tool at one pixel for this.

Fifth I set the clone tool to 100% hardness and the largest size and with a
single sweep, I clone the entire duplicate, cool-colored image over onto the
warm-original, but it only gets through the mask/selection to the extent of
the transparency.  If you do the sweep in more than one continuous motion,
the amount that gets through the mask will be duplicated in the feathered
areas.

I then have an original that is warm-colored (false color, of course) where
the mask was opaque, or to the extent of the opacity, and cool-colored where
the selection let the clone tool do its cloning. 

Finally, I print the image on, in this case, a 2200 with UT7 inks, using the
usual settings.  (The curves have already been applied.)  

If you save the colored image, name it in a way that reminds you what
printer and inkset it is set up for.  I usually don't save the color image,
but I definitely do save the selection.  

It works and is really not that difficult.  (This is one trick the C86 can't
do.)

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben
> Rosengart
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:58 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Newbie question - what is duotone?
> 
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 06:15:38PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> >
> > With non-feathered selections you can apply one curve in one area, and a
> > second curve in the inverse selection area.  With feathered selections,
> I've
> > had better luck making a duplicate image, applying one curve to each,
> and
> > then cloning over from one to the other in one 100% sweep.
> 
> Can you explain that last step a little more explicitly?  Is it
> just a copy and paste of the entire image?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> --
>  Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
>        "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
>         good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
>         but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement
>

This is very interesting.  I've been trying to create a digital
printing method that I used to do in the darkroom.  It wasn't really
split toning but achieved a split tonality.  I would take a
traditional BW print that had been purposefully printed dark and
bleach it back heavily with a potassium ferrocyanide solution.  The
solution would not only bleach the highlights, but stain the upper
tonalities to a yellow/sepia hue.  Unfortunately, the technique was
quite difficult to control and even though I got several prints that I
liked it was a hit or miss affair.  

I've been able to duplicate the look to a great degree on the screen
using PhotoShop's duotone function with custom curves but I have yet
to get them to print.  Here are some examples:
http://homepage.mac.com/mojojones/display/page1.html  If you look at
the detail and duotone dialog you'll notice that the tonality stays
neutral and progressive until about 50% where it becomes light then
shifts to the yellow tone for the upper tones prematurely bleeding off
to white (the bleached effect).

I first tried to print these images with standard color inks but the
neutral tones where not neutral.  So after reading about MIS viable
tone inks I thought maybe I could to it in a similar way.  So I set up
an old 3000 with the FSN inkset and replaced the Magenta place with a
custom mixed yellow/sepia tint the was a similar density to the K tint
it replaced.  I've only just started experimenting but as yet the
results haven't been to acceptable.  I'm not getting enough density in
the yellow/sepia tones and they are going green due to the blue tint.
 I'll probably have to add some black to increase the density of the
custom tint and restrict the blue tint to the lower tones.

John J.

John,

That interesting sample looks like it ought to be able to be printed with a
monotone inkset of the right tone/hue.  It looks like a carbon-sepia type
tone.  For UT7 sepia I use a combination of carbon, 7600 yellow and R800
red.  Using an old 3000 makes this more difficult because you'll need more
than a single ink due to the large dots.  The nice thing about the newer
printers is that you can mix just a single ink, like the UT7-sepia, and run
it all the way to where a dark carbon (UT7-C) and then the black can take
over the density formation.  To make such a single custom ink, I recommend
starting with the light carbon UT7-LC (or the sepia, which might be close)
and adding color as needed.  If that ends up too dense, the UT1
hextone-Y/quadtone-M is about the lightest pure carbon ink MIS has.  The
UT-FS-Y is a bit lighter, but has some cooling pigments in it.

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> mojojones2001
> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:54 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Split toning procedure (was Newbie question -
> what is duotone?)
> 
> This is very interesting.  I've been trying to create a digital
> printing method that I used to do in the darkroom.  It wasn't really
> split toning but achieved a split tonality.  I would take a
> traditional BW print that had been purposefully printed dark and
> bleach it back heavily with a potassium ferrocyanide solution.  The
> solution would not only bleach the highlights, but stain the upper
> tonalities to a yellow/sepia hue.  Unfortunately, the technique was
> quite difficult to control and even though I got several prints that I
> liked it was a hit or miss affair.
> 
> I've been able to duplicate the look to a great degree on the screen
> using PhotoShop's duotone function with custom curves but I have yet
> to get them to print.  Here are some examples:
> http://homepage.mac.com/mojojones/display/page1.html  If you look at
> the detail and duotone dialog you'll notice that the tonality stays
> neutral and progressive until about 50% where it becomes light then
> shifts to the yellow tone for the upper tones prematurely bleeding off
> to white (the bleached effect).
> 
> I first tried to print these images with standard color inks but the
> neutral tones where not neutral.  So after reading about MIS viable
> tone inks I thought maybe I could to it in a similar way.  So I set up
> an old 3000 with the FSN inkset and replaced the Magenta place with a
> custom mixed yellow/sepia tint the was a similar density to the K tint
> it replaced.  I've only just started experimenting but as yet the
> results haven't been to acceptable.  I'm not getting enough density in
> the yellow/sepia tones and they are going green due to the blue tint.
>  I'll probably have to add some black to increase the density of the
> custom tint and restrict the blue tint to the lower tones.
> 
> John J.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Paul, thank you so much for sharing your technique with me.  Please
read below, I need a little more help.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 07:46:22PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> Here is my procedure.  

I'm trying this out now.  I'm a little lost.  I think you left out
some aspects that are obvious to old Photoshop hands, but less obvious
to me.

> First I make a selection of what areas I want, for example, cool.  I save
> the selection, of course.  In the one I just printed the selection had large
> areas of feathering or less than 100% opacity (of the mask).  

With you so far.

> Second, I make a duplicate image -- both should be converted to RGB before
> the curves are applied.  

Do they need to be flattened?  My top layer is usually a Channel Mixer
layer.

> Third, I apply the cool curve to the duplicate and the warm curve to the
> original.  

So the selection stayed with the original, and the duplicate has
no selection, yes?  And you apply the curves as a layer, or as an
adjustment?  If an adjustment, which layer is selected (see flattening
question above)?

> Fourth I align the clone tool at (.001, .001) or whatever your "Information"
> palette says the upper left hand corner of the image is.  Have the clone
> tool at one pixel for this.

Align?  Is that "option-click to define a source point", or something else?

> Fifth I set the clone tool to 100% hardness and the largest size and with a
> single sweep, I clone the entire duplicate, cool-colored image over onto the
> warm-original,

So you've defined a source point in the duplicate, and you apply the
clone to the original?  This is where I really get lost.  I tried
this, but the result didn't look right at all.  I must have gone wrong
somewhere earlier.

> but it only gets through the mask/selection to the extent of
> the transparency.  If you do the sweep in more than one continuous motion,
> the amount that gets through the mask will be duplicated in the feathered
> areas.
> 
> I then have an original that is warm-colored (false color, of course) where
> the mask was opaque, or to the extent of the opacity, and cool-colored where
> the selection let the clone tool do its cloning. 
> 
> Finally, I print the image on, in this case, a 2200 with UT7 inks, using the
> usual settings.  (The curves have already been applied.)  
> 
> If you save the colored image, name it in a way that reminds you what
> printer and inkset it is set up for.  I usually don't save the color image,
> but I definitely do save the selection.  

Thanks ...

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Ben,

> ...
> 
> > First I make a selection of what areas I want, for example, cool.  
> > I save
> > the selection, of course.  In the one I just printed the selection 
> > had large
> > areas of feathering or less than 100% opacity (of the mask).
> 
> With you so far.
> 
> > Second, I make a duplicate image -- both should be converted to 
> > RGB before the curves are applied.
> 
> Do they need to be flattened?  My top layer is usually a Channel Mixer
> layer.
> 

No, I make a duplicate or copy image, not a duplicate layer.  Click on
"Image" in the top bar, then click on "Duplicate."  It will be labeled
"Copy."



> > Third, I apply the cool curve to the duplicate and the warm curve to the
> > original.

The curves are applied to the entire images.  Usually my selection is saved,
so I forgot to say that no selection should be on the image at this point.

> 
> > Fourth I align the clone tool at (.001, .001) or whatever your
> > "Information" palette says the upper left hand corner of the image is.
> >   Have the clone tool at one pixel for this.
> 
> Align?  Is that "option-click to define a source point", or something
> else?

I'm probably not using the right terminology.  Use the "Alt" key with the
clone/rubber-stamp tool to set the input/source point at the upper left
corner of the duplicate/copy image, then click on the original image at the
same exact point to be sure the pixels are exactly matched.


> 
> > Fifth I set the clone tool to 100% hardness and the largest size and
> > with a single sweep, I clone the entire duplicate, cool-colored 
> > image over onto the warm-original,
> 

This is where the selection has to be on the original to restrict the
cloning to the areas you want to be the tone of the duplicate/copy image.

If you were trying this with layers, it might have gotten confusing.



> 
> > but it only gets through the mask/selection to the extent of
> > the transparency.  If you do the sweep in more than one continuous
> > motion, the amount that gets through the mask will be duplicated 
> > in the feathered areas.
> >
> > I then have an original that is warm-colored (false color, of course)
> > where the mask was opaque, or to the extent of the opacity, and 
> > cool-colored where the selection let the clone tool do its cloning.
> >
> > Finally, I print the image on, in this case, a 2200 with UT7 inks, 
> > using the usual settings.  (The curves have already been applied.)
> >
> > If you save the colored image, name it in a way that reminds you what
> > printer and inkset it is set up for.  I usually don't save the color
> > image, but I definitely do save the selection.
> 

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Ok, this is becoming clearer ...

On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 02:07:55PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> > > Second, I make a duplicate image -- both should be converted to 
> > > RGB before the curves are applied.
> > 
> > Do they need to be flattened?  My top layer is usually a Channel Mixer
> > layer.
> 
> No, I make a duplicate or copy image, not a duplicate layer. 

I got that.  I meant, do the duplicate and original images have to
be flattened.  It seems that the answer is "yes" -- or at least,
if it's not necessary, it's more efficient.

> > > Third, I apply the cool curve to the duplicate and the warm curve to the
> > > original.
> 
> The curves are applied to the entire images.  Usually my selection is saved,
> so I forgot to say that no selection should be on the image at this point.

This helps.

> > > Fourth I align the clone tool at (.001, .001) or whatever your
> > > "Information" palette says the upper left hand corner of the image is.
> > >   Have the clone tool at one pixel for this.
> > 
> > Align?  Is that "option-click to define a source point", or something
> > else?
> 
> I'm probably not using the right terminology.  Use the "Alt" key with the
> clone/rubber-stamp tool to set the input/source point at the upper left
> corner of the duplicate/copy image, then click on the original image at the
> same exact point to be sure the pixels are exactly matched.

Ok, I did understand you correctly, then -- your "alt" is my "option",
since I use a Mac.

> > > Fifth I set the clone tool to 100% hardness and the largest size and
> > > with a single sweep, I clone the entire duplicate, cool-colored 
> > > image over onto the warm-original,
> 
> This is where the selection has to be on the original to restrict the
> cloning to the areas you want to be the tone of the duplicate/copy image.

Huh ... I'm not getting the cloned material to line up.  I tried using
copy and paste instead of clone stamp, as an experiment.  From how it
looks on the screen, it seems like it ought to work.  I'll post again
when the test print finishes ...

Seems like this method wouldn't work as well when the mask is less
than 100% opaque, though.  Is that how you do it when you want a more
subtle duotone effect?  How do you do that, anyway?

One last question.  Is there a way to apply one curve (tone) to, say,
the middle-to-highlights, and a different one to the shadows -- and if
so, can the crossover be made gradual?  I think that might be a nice
effect, and I'd like to play with it.

A million thanks.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:30:03PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> 
> Huh ... I'm not getting the cloned material to line up.  I tried using
> copy and paste instead of clone stamp, as an experiment.  From how it
> looks on the screen, it seems like it ought to work.  I'll post again
> when the test print finishes ...

Yecch.  Not recommended.

Ok, back to awaiting Paul's advice.  :-)

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 02:07:55PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> I'm probably not using the right terminology.  Use the "Alt" key with the
> clone/rubber-stamp tool to set the input/source point at the upper left
> corner of the duplicate/copy image, then click on the original image at the
> same exact point to be sure the pixels are exactly matched.

My problem at this step is that the clone tool only goes to a
2500-pixel radius.  Since I'm starting from a corner of the image,
only half of that area comes into play.  So what do I do when my image
is more than 1250 pixels tall?

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:46:01PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> 
> My problem at this step is that the clone tool only goes to a
> 2500-pixel radius.  Since I'm starting from a corner of the image,
> only half of that area comes into play.  So what do I do when my image
> is more than 1250 pixels tall?

Made it work.  Don't know how.  Sorry for the noise.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:39:35PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:30:03PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> > 
> > Huh ... I'm not getting the cloned material to line up.  I tried using
> > copy and paste instead of clone stamp, as an experiment.  From how it
> > looks on the screen, it seems like it ought to work.  I'll post again
> > when the test print finishes ...
> 
> Yecch.  Not recommended.

Might've just been bad printer settings.  I've been changing papers.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Hmmm...  I was trying to get by with a 3000 to figure this out because
 it was had so cheap.  Oh well, thanks for the suggestions Paul.

John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> John,
> 
> That interesting sample looks like it ought to be able to be printed
with a
> monotone inkset of the right tone/hue.  It looks like a carbon-sepia
type
> tone.  For UT7 sepia I use a combination of carbon, 7600 yellow and R800
> red.  Using an old 3000 makes this more difficult because you'll
need more
> than a single ink due to the large dots.  The nice thing about the newer
> printers is that you can mix just a single ink, like the UT7-sepia,
and run
> it all the way to where a dark carbon (UT7-C) and then the black can
take
> over the density formation.  To make such a single custom ink, I
recommend
> starting with the light carbon UT7-LC (or the sepia, which might be
close)
> and adding color as needed.  If that ends up too dense, the UT1
> hextone-Y/quadtone-M is about the lightest pure carbon ink MIS has.  The
> UT-FS-Y is a bit lighter, but has some cooling pigments in it.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yaho

ogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > mojojones2001
> > Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:54 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Split toning procedure (was Newbie
question -
> > what is duotone?)
> > 
> > This is very interesting.  I've been trying to create a digital
> > printing method that I used to do in the darkroom.  It wasn't really
> > split toning but achieved a split tonality.  I would take a
> > traditional BW print that had been purposefully printed dark and
> > bleach it back heavily with a potassium ferrocyanide solution.  The
> > solution would not only bleach the highlights, but stain the upper
> > tonalities to a yellow/sepia hue.  Unfortunately, the technique was
> > quite difficult to control and even though I got several prints that I
> > liked it was a hit or miss affair.
> > 
> > I've been able to duplicate the look to a great degree on the screen
> > using PhotoShop's duotone function with custom curves but I have yet
> > to get them to print.  Here are some examples:
> > http://homepage.mac.com/mojojones/display/page1.html  If you look at
> > the detail and duotone dialog you'll notice that the tonality stays
> > neutral and progressive until about 50% where it becomes light then
> > shifts to the yellow tone for the upper tones prematurely bleeding off
> > to white (the bleached effect).
> > 
> > I first tried to print these images with standard color inks but the
> > neutral tones where not neutral.  So after reading about MIS viable
> > tone inks I thought maybe I could to it in a similar way.  So I set up
> > an old 3000 with the FSN inkset and replaced the Magenta place with a
> > custom mixed yellow/sepia tint the was a similar density to the K tint
> > it replaced.  I've only just started experimenting but as yet the
> > results haven't been to acceptable.  I'm not getting enough density in
> > the yellow/sepia tones and they are going green due to the blue tint.
> >  I'll probably have to add some black to increase the density of the
> > custom tint and restrict the blue tint to the lower tones.
> > 
> > John J.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE
BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR
DATA; (iii)

> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

Ben,

So, is it working for you now?  Once you get the hang of it, it's easy.
Most of the work is getting the masks the way you want them to separate the
tones.  

Obviously with this method the split toning it's more than just having the
highlights one tone and the shadows another.  You can define the tones in
the places you want them.  That said, I've found that subtlety makes the
split toning work best.  In a B&W, an obvious difference of tones can look
odd.  I don't want the viewer to be hit in the face with what might look
like a gimmick.  Getting a reaction in the viewer of coolness or warmth
without the viewer really being aware that there are different tones would
be ideal.

> ... Is there a way to apply one curve (tone) to, say,
> the middle-to-highlights, and a different one to the shadows -- and if
> so, can the crossover be made gradual?  ...

I tried to make most of the UT7 and UT2 curves such that this would be easy
to do right on the curves.  Just look at where the points are for the
different toned curves.  For example, if you want cool highlights on the
neutral or warm tone curves, just look at the coordinates of the R & G
curves for the 25%/191 point on the cool curve, pull up the neutral or warm
curve, and change the 25%/191 coordinates to what the cool curve had.  Save
the curve under a new name.

The shadows can get tricky if you try to inter-mix the coordinates from
different curves.  So, I'd leave the 100% to 75% (0 - 63) points of any one
curve pretty much as is.  You can make some off-setting, up & down moves of
the R & G curve points there, but posterization is more likely in that part
of the curve.

Have fun.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Sorry Paul, I was traveling for a bit ...

On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 08:36:55PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> So, is it working for you now?  Once you get the hang of it, it's easy.
> Most of the work is getting the masks the way you want them to separate the
> tones.  

I got some decent results, but nothing that looked as good on the page
as "Whalers' Cabin" does on the screen, for instance.  If I try again,
I'll try for more subtlety -- as you said, split toning should not be
too obtrusive.

Playing with split toning, I find myself wishing for a WYSIWYG
workflow in Photoshop.  Have you had any thoughts about that sort of
thing?

Thanks,

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement