Digital BW, The Print

Hello all,
I currently own an Epson 2000P. None of the
current BW inksets properly feed with the
2000P. I tested Lysonic BW and MIS VM, and
Luminos says they will never have a 2000P
inkset.  

SO, what is an optimal printer for BW up to
say 13"x19" paper ? Why is there so much
interest in the 1160 over other models ??

Happy Holidays,
Alex P
Orlando Fla

The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using unchipped carts,
making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick paper well, &
have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3 different inksets
plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use anymore. I use the
original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or better) than
anything I did in the darkroom.

I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that expense vs the
increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of ink for one of
the newer printers.

-BK

> -----Original Message-----
> From: a_pettit_jr [mailto:a_pettit_jr@...]
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 4:19 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 1160, 1280, 3000 ????
>
>
> Hello all,
> I currently own an Epson 2000P. None of the
> current BW inksets properly feed with the
> 2000P. I tested Lysonic BW and MIS VM, and
> Luminos says they will never have a 2000P
> inkset.
>
> SO, what is an optimal printer for BW up to
> say 13"x19" paper ? Why is there so much
> interest in the 1160 over other models ??
>
> Happy Holidays,
> Alex P
> Orlando Fla
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hi Barry,

Do you a source to purchase an 1160?

Thanks,

John in OKC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Kelsall" <bktimes@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 11:47 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson 1160, 1280, 3000 ????


| The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using unchipped carts,
| making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick paper well,
&
| have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3 different
inksets
| plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use anymore. I use the
| original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or better) than
| anything I did in the darkroom.
|
| I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that expense vs the
| increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of ink for one
of
| the newer printers.
|
| -BK
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: a_pettit_jr [mailto:a_pettit_jr@...]
| > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 4:19 AM
| > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
| > Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 1160, 1280, 3000 ????
| >
| >
| > Hello all,
| > I currently own an Epson 2000P. None of the
| > current BW inksets properly feed with the
| > 2000P. I tested Lysonic BW and MIS VM, and
| > Luminos says they will never have a 2000P
| > inkset.
| >
| > SO, what is an optimal printer for BW up to
| > say 13"x19" paper ? Why is there so much
| > interest in the 1160 over other models ??
| >
| > Happy Holidays,
| > Alex P
| > Orlando Fla
| >
| >
| > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
| > Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is
at:
| >
| > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
| >
| > Please follow these basic guidelines:
| > - Include your full name with your message.
| > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
| > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
| > messages to keep them short.
| > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
| > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
| > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
| > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
| > various resources on the homepage.
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
| >
| >
|
|
|
| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
|
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
|
| Please follow these basic guidelines:
| - Include your full name with your message.
| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
| - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
| - Complete your Yahoo profile.
| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
|
|
|
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|

Sorry, no knowledge of where to find an 1160 now. I bought mine (all
refurbs) before they were discontinued & lacked the resolve to stockpile
them even though I knew the demand would continue long into the future.  -BK

> -----Original Message-----
> From: JackG [mailto:jackg@...]
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 10:57 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 1160, 1280, 3000 ????
>
>
> Hi Barry,
>
> Do you a source to purchase an 1160?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John in OKC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry Kelsall" <bktimes@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 11:47 AM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson 1160, 1280, 3000 ????
>
>
> | The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using unchipped carts,
> | making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick
> paper well,
> &
> | have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3 different
> inksets
> | plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use anymore. I use the
> | original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or
> better) than
> | anything I did in the darkroom.
> |
> | I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that expense vs the
> | increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of
> ink for one
> of
> | the newer printers.
> |
> | -BK
> |
> | > -----Original Message-----
> | > From: a_pettit_jr [mailto:a_pettit_jr@...]
> | > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 4:19 AM
> | > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> | > Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 1160, 1280, 3000 ????
> | >
> | >
> | > Hello all,
> | > I currently own an Epson 2000P. None of the
> | > current BW inksets properly feed with the
> | > 2000P. I tested Lysonic BW and MIS VM, and
> | > Luminos says they will never have a 2000P
> | > inkset.
> | >
> | > SO, what is an optimal printer for BW up to
> | > say 13"x19" paper ? Why is there so much
> | > interest in the 1160 over other models ??
> | >
> | > Happy Holidays,
> | > Alex P
> | > Orlando Fla
> | >
> | >
> | > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> | > Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is
> at:
> | >
> | > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> | >
> | > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> | > - Include your full name with your message.
> | > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> | > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> | > messages to keep them short.
> | > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> | > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> | > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> | > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> | > various resources on the homepage.
> | >
> | >
> | >
> | >
> | > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> |
> | Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> |
> | http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> |
> | Please follow these basic guidelines:
> | - Include your full name with your message.
> | - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> | - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> them short.
> | - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
> subject header.
> | - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> | - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> | - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> |
> |
> |
> |
> | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> |
> |
> |
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hello Barry,
Thanks for the information...
I found this printer comparison.. how does the 1160 perform
with the Quad BW inks ??

http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
res.html

http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
tml

Best,
alex p


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall" 
<bktimes@y...> wrote:
> The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using unchipped 
carts,
> making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick 
paper well, &
> have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3 
different inksets
> plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use anymore. I 
use the
> original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or 
better) than
> anything I did in the darkroom.
> 
> I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that expense vs 
the
> increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of ink 
for one of

> the newer printers.
> 
> -BK
>

Using an 8x loupe, I can make out the dither pattern on my color 1160
Generations prints. If I look hard, I can even find some localized dithering
on my MIS quad 1160 prints. Take the loupe away and I fail to see any
dithering on either my quad BW or Generations color prints. My eyes are not
the best, however.

I have shown my prints to two traditional BW photographers who don't own
computers & they were as amazed as I was when I made my first 1160 quad
print. For me, the 1160 performs quite well.  -BK

> -----Original Message-----
> From: a_pettit_jr [mailto:a_pettit_jr@...]
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 2:34 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 1160, 1280, 3000 ????
>
>
> Hello Barry,
> Thanks for the information...
> I found this printer comparison.. how does the 1160 perform
> with the Quad BW inks ??
>
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
> res.html
>
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
> tml
>
> Best,
> alex p
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall"
> <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using unchipped
> carts,
> > making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick
> paper well, &
> > have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3
> different inksets
> > plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use anymore. I
> use the
> > original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or
> better) than
> > anything I did in the darkroom.
> >
> > I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that expense vs
> the
> > increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of ink
> for one of
> > the newer printers.
> >
> > -BK
> >
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

The printer comparison is highly misleading for a true B&W workflow.  
The 1160 is probably the best B&W 13" carriage printer out there, 
when used with dedicated B&W inksets.  For example, zero dots with 
the Cone Piezography B&W inks and software.
--
Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> Hello Barry,
> Thanks for the information...
> I found this printer comparison.. how does the 1160 perform
> with the Quad BW inks ??
> 
> 
http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
> res.html
> 
> 
http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
> tml
> 
> Best,
> alex p
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall" 
> <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using unchipped 
> carts,
> > making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick 
> paper well, &
> > have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3 
> different inksets
> > plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use anymore. I 
> use the
> > original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or 
> better) than
> > anything I did in the darkroom.
> > 
> > I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that expense 
vs 

> the
> > increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of ink 
> for one of
> > the newer printers.
> > 
> > -BK
> >

Having taken part in the last B&W print exchange, I was surprised at the amount on banding (or corduroy
patterning) that I saw in a great number of the prints done with the 1160 printers, some more apparent than
others.

From what I understand it depends on the specific printer as to whether this happens, but given the
percentages that showed the problem in the exchange prints, I would not consider the 1160.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC

qdfb wrote:

>  The printer comparison is highly misleading for a true B&W workflow.
> The 1160 is probably the best B&W 13" carriage printer out there,
> when used with dedicated B&W inksets.  For example, zero dots with
> the Cone Piezography B&W inks and software.
> --
> Quentin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr"
> <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > Hello Barry,
> > Thanks for the information...
> > I found this printer comparison.. how does the 1160 perform
> > with the Quad BW inks ??
> >
> >
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
> > res.html
> >
> >
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
> > tml
> >
> > Best,
> > alex p
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall"
> > <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > > The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using unchipped
> > carts,
> > > making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick
> > paper well, &
> > > have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3
> > different inksets
> > > plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use anymore. I
> > use the
> > > original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or
> > better) than
> > > anything I did in the darkroom.
> > >
> > > I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that expense
> vs
> > the
> > > increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of ink
> > for one of
> > > the newer printers.
> > >
> > > -BK
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A good cleaning and that banding goes away. Besides my 3, I am familiar with
3 more 1160 bulk setups, and none of the 6 exhibit any type of permanent
banding. -BK

> -----Original Message-----
> From: SKID Photography [mailto:skid@...]
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 3:54 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 1160, 1280, 3000 ????
>
>
> Having taken part in the last B&W print exchange, I was surprised
> at the amount on banding (or corduroy
> patterning) that I saw in a great number of the prints done with
> the 1160 printers, some more apparent than
> others.
>
> From what I understand it depends on the specific printer as to
> whether this happens, but given the
> percentages that showed the problem in the exchange prints, I
> would not consider the 1160.
>
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
>
> qdfb wrote:
>
> >  The printer comparison is highly misleading for a true B&W workflow.
> > The 1160 is probably the best B&W 13" carriage printer out there,
> > when used with dedicated B&W inksets.  For example, zero dots with
> > the Cone Piezography B&W inks and software.
> > --
> > Quentin
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr"
> > <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > > Hello Barry,
> > > Thanks for the information...
> > > I found this printer comparison.. how does the 1160 perform
> > > with the Quad BW inks ??
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
> > > res.html
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
> > > tml
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > alex p
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall"
> > > <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > > > The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using unchipped
> > > carts,
> > > > making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick
> > > paper well, &
> > > > have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3
> > > different inksets
> > > > plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use anymore. I
> > > use the
> > > > original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or
> > > better) than
> > > > anything I did in the darkroom.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that expense
> > vs
> > > the
> > > > increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of ink
> > > for one of
> > > > the newer printers.
> > > >
> > > > -BK
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

In a message dated 12/27/01 6:55:02 PM, skid@... writes:

<< From what I understand it depends on the specific printer as to whether 
this happens, but given the
percentages that showed the problem in the exchange prints, I would not 
consider the 1160.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC >>

I agree with Harvey if the goal is quantity printing.  Every 5th print or so 
of mine while printing for the exchange would get some banding.  Head 
cleanings cleared things up a lot, but that should not really be necesary.  I 
think the 1270/80 clears things up a whole lot for quantity users.

All the best!

-Andy Darlow

eBay seems to be a constant source for even brand new 1160's.

mark

> Sorry, no knowledge of where to find an 1160 now. > >

Alex,

I am curious as to what you mean when you wrote that the inks you 
listed didn't properly feed with the 2000P. I can't speak for the 
Lysonic, but the MIS VM worked perfectly - Piezo or better quality 
and absolutely no clogs. I was using a CIS and the curves that Paul 
and I worked on. I have tested the MIS VM, Gen4, MIS Archival and the 
Cone Color Piezo with this printer and all of them worked great 
except the Color Piezo (severe yellow clogging and misting).

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

> Hello all,
> I currently own an Epson 2000P. None of the
> current BW inksets properly feed with the
> 2000P. I tested Lysonic BW and MIS VM, and
> Luminos says they will never have a 2000P
> inkset.  
> 
> SO, what is an optimal printer for BW up to
> say 13"x19" paper ? Why is there so much
> interest in the 1160 over other models ??
> 
> Happy Holidays,
> Alex P
> Orlando Fla

Harvey-

What do you recommend as a substitute?

Tom O'Connell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:
> Having taken part in the last B&W print exchange, I was surprised 
at the amount on banding (or corduroy
> patterning) that I saw in a great number of the prints done with 
the 1160 printers, some more apparent than
> others.
> 
> From what I understand it depends on the specific printer as to 
whether this happens, but given the
> percentages that showed the problem in the exchange prints, I would 
not consider the 1160.
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> qdfb wrote:
> 
> >  The printer comparison is highly misleading for a true B&W 
workflow.
> > The 1160 is probably the best B&W 13" carriage printer out there,
> > when used with dedicated B&W inksets.  For example, zero dots with
> > the Cone Piezography B&W inks and software.
> > --
> > Quentin
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr"
> > <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > > Hello Barry,
> > > Thanks for the information...
> > > I found this printer comparison.. how does the 1160 perform
> > > with the Quad BW inks ??
> > >
> > >
> > 
http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
> > > res.html
> > >
> > >
> > 
http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
> > > tml
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > alex p
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall"
> > > <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > > > The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using 
unchipped
> > > carts,
> > > > making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick
> > > paper well, &
> > > > have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3
> > > different inksets
> > > > plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use 
anymore. I
> > > use the
> > > > original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or
> > > better) than
> > > > anything I did in the darkroom.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that 
expense
> > vs
> > > the
> > > > increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of 
ink

> > > for one of
> > > > the newer printers.
> > > >
> > > > -BK
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know the percentage of people out there using
this combo, but the 1280 w/ MIS VM inks and Paul's
curves creates spectacular prints.
Under a 10x loupe, you can barely make out any dots.
BTW, I'm on a PC running Win98SE.

 -Daniel

--- qdfb <qdb@...> wrote:
> The printer comparison is highly misleading for a
> true B&W workflow.  
> The 1160 is probably the best B&W 13" carriage
> printer out there, 
> when used with dedicated B&W inksets.  For example,
> zero dots with 
> the Cone Piezography B&W inks and software.
> --
> Quentin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...,
> "a_pettit_jr" 
> <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > Hello Barry,
> > Thanks for the information...
> > I found this printer comparison.. how does the
> 1160 perform
> > with the Quad BW inks ??
> > 
> > 
>
http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
> > res.html
> > 
> > 
>
http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
> > tml
> > 
> > Best,
> > alex p
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry
> Kelsall" 
> > <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > > The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer
> using unchipped 
> > carts,
> > > making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are
> quiet, feed thick 
> > paper well, &
> > > have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's
> running 3 
> > different inksets
> > > plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very
> little use anymore. I 
> > use the
> > > original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look
> as good (or 
> > better) than
> > > anything I did in the darkroom.
> > > 
> > > I don't know what they cost now, but I would
> weigh that expense 
> vs 
> > the
> > > increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two
> extra bottles of ink 
> > for one of
> > > the newer printers.
> > > 
> > > -BK
> > >
> 
> 
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__________________________________________________
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> What do you recommend as a substitute?
>
> Tom O'Connell
>

Tom,
Sorry, but I am of no help...I only know what I have seen of the 1160s, and I was underwhelmed.

We just ordered an Epson 7000, which is a 6 color 24" wide printer, but probably more than you want to spend,
at $3K+.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography
> <skid@b...> wrote:
> > Having taken part in the last B&W print exchange, I was surprised
> at the amount on banding (or corduroy
> > patterning) that I saw in a great number of the prints done with
> the 1160 printers, some more apparent than
> > others.
> >
> > From what I understand it depends on the specific printer as to
> whether this happens, but given the
> > percentages that showed the problem in the exchange prints, I would
> not consider the 1160.
> >
> > Harvey Ferdschneider
> > partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> >
> > qdfb wrote:
> >
> > >  The printer comparison is highly misleading for a true B&W
> workflow.
> > > The 1160 is probably the best B&W 13" carriage printer out there,
> > > when used with dedicated B&W inksets.  For example, zero dots with
> > > the Cone Piezography B&W inks and software.
> > > --
> > > Quentin
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr"
> > > <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > > > Hello Barry,
> > > > Thanks for the information...
> > > > I found this printer comparison.. how does the 1160 perform
> > > > with the Quad BW inks ??
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
> > > > res.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
> > > > tml
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > alex p
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall"
> > > > <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > > > > The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using
> unchipped
> > > > carts,
> > > > > making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed thick
> > > > paper well, &
> > > > > have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3
> > > > different inksets
> > > > > plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use
> anymore. I
> > > > use the
> > > > > original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good (or
> > > > better) than
> > > > > anything I did in the darkroom.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that
> expense
> > > vs
> > > > the
> > > > > increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra bottles of
> ink
> > > > for one of
> > > > > the newer printers.
> > > > >
> > > > > -BK
> > >
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wait till you try a 7000...:-)

I've nver had a serious banding problem with my 1160. Maybe I'm 
lucky, but I don't see why it should be any more prone to banding 
than any other desktop printer.
--
Quentin 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., shashinka@a... wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 12/27/01 6:55:02 PM, skid@b... writes:
> 
> << From what I understand it depends on the specific printer as to 
whether 
> this happens, but given the
> percentages that showed the problem in the exchange prints, I would 
not 
> consider the 1160.
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC >>
> 
> I agree with Harvey if the goal is quantity printing.  Every 5th 
print or so 
> of mine while printing for the exchange would get some banding.  
Head 
> cleanings cleared things up a lot, but that should not really be 
necesary.  I 

> think the 1270/80 clears things up a whole lot for quantity users.
> 
> All the best!
> 
> -Andy Darlow

----- Original Message -----

From: "qdfb" <qdb@...>


> Wait till you try a 7000...:-)
>
> I've nver had a serious banding problem with my 1160. Maybe I'm
> lucky, but I don't see why it should be any more prone to banding
> than any other desktop printer.

:-) me neither, I am quite happy with my 1160, its an awesome printer for
the money...

greetings Bernhard

The Rest of the Story ...

The 2000P in the EpsonArchivalMatte mode prints high speed ( 
bidirectional ) and with microweave enabled. It takes about 25 mins 
for a 12x16 printed area.

The sequence was
( with 2 or 3 cleaning cycles between changes and nozzle and
alignment tests to ensure proper ink feed )

Epson inks : no problems
Lyson Cleaning Cartridges
Lyson BW Hex Inks (dye) : banding
Lyson Cleaning Cartridges
Epson Inks : no problems
( a week later )
MIS VM Hex Inks (pigment) : banding
Epson Inks : no problems

Now, with the MIS inkset I did some more investigation .. The inks
would print OK if I used the PremiumLuster with Super(X) enabled, but 
that took the 12x16 printing sessions to over an hour to complete.

As I watched the printing with in the standard EAM paper mode, it 
appeared as if a nozzle quit for a time, then resumed - (sometimes 
too greatly?). The prints looked as if someone had wiped the paper 
with sandpaper in one direction - the streaks were most vivid in the 
mid tones and had a quite regular pattern.... I printed only a few 
intensity step charts ( with a cleaning cycle or two ) to verify that
nothing changed the pattern. I did not print too much as I was 
concerned that the nozzles might be intermittently running without 
ink and overheating or whatever and that I might damage the head..

From the MIS to a new set of Epson, I just pulled out the MIS and 
installed the Epson with no cleaning or alignment. The first nozzle 
test was fine and all prints afterwards were flawless.

It sure seems that there is some difference in ink characteristics 

Regards,
Alex P

qdfb wrote:

>  Wait till you try a 7000...:-)
>
> I've nver had a serious banding problem with my 1160. Maybe I'm
> lucky, but I don't see why it should be any more prone to banding
> than any other desktop printer.
> --
> Quentin

I do not know for sure, but I suspect that there are actually real differences between all these printer
models.  And since the 1160 is both an inexpensive unit and a relatively early (now discontinued) one, that
the later and more expensive Epson printers have better (more reliable) transport, paper handling etc.
technology than the 1160.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC

>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., shashinka@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 12/27/01 6:55:02 PM, skid@b... writes:
> >
> > << From what I understand it depends on the specific printer as to
> whether
> > this happens, but given the
> > percentages that showed the problem in the exchange prints, I would
> not
> > consider the 1160.
> >
> > Harvey Ferdschneider
> > partner, SKID Photography, NYC >>
> >
> > I agree with Harvey if the goal is quantity printing.  Every 5th
> print or so
> > of mine while printing for the exchange would get some banding.
> Head
> > cleanings cleared things up a lot, but that should not really be
> necesary.  I
> > think the 1270/80 clears things up a whole lot for quantity users.
> >
> > All the best!
> >
> > -Andy Darlow





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alex,

Sorry to hear about the problems with the MIS VM. The settings below 
were the ones that we used to develop the curves for the 2000P:

Media Type:              Archival Matte Paper
 
Print Quality:           Photo
 
High Speed:              Unchecked
 
Flip Horizontal:         Unchecked
 
Color Management:        Color Controls with Mode set to Vivid and
                         all sliders left at zero

My guess would be that if you didn't uncheck the high speed box, that 
is why you saw banding.

Terry


 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> The Rest of the Story ...
> 
> The 2000P in the EpsonArchivalMatte mode prints high speed ( 
> bidirectional ) and with microweave enabled. It takes about 25 mins 
> for a 12x16 printed area.
> 
> The sequence was
> ( with 2 or 3 cleaning cycles between changes and nozzle and
> alignment tests to ensure proper ink feed )
> 
> Epson inks : no problems
> Lyson Cleaning Cartridges
> Lyson BW Hex Inks (dye) : banding
> Lyson Cleaning Cartridges
> Epson Inks : no problems
> ( a week later )
> MIS VM Hex Inks (pigment) : banding
> Epson Inks : no problems
> 
> Now, with the MIS inkset I did some more investigation .. The inks
> would print OK if I used the PremiumLuster with Super(X) enabled, 
but 
> that took the 12x16 printing sessions to over an hour to complete.
> 
> As I watched the printing with in the standard EAM paper mode, it 
> appeared as if a nozzle quit for a time, then resumed - (sometimes 
> too greatly?). The prints looked as if someone had wiped the paper 
> with sandpaper in one direction - the streaks were most vivid in 
the 
> mid tones and had a quite regular pattern.... I printed only a few 
> intensity step charts ( with a cleaning cycle or two ) to verify 
that

> nothing changed the pattern. I did not print too much as I was 
> concerned that the nozzles might be intermittently running without 
> ink and overheating or whatever and that I might damage the head..
> 
> From the MIS to a new set of Epson, I just pulled out the MIS and 
> installed the Epson with no cleaning or alignment. The first nozzle 
> test was fine and all prints afterwards were flawless.
> 
> It sure seems that there is some difference in ink characteristics 
> 
> Regards,
> Alex P

Hello Terry,
I am at the point of buying an E1270. 
If you have some good correction curves, I will reinstall 
the MIS inkset and try again. 
Even when I got a good print (PremLuster, SuperX),
the tonal scale was quite poor with much posterization.
I am sure I tried that step : I use that for the 12x16
prints - the bidirectional is fine for 8x10.

Thanks,
Alex P

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "terryr1028" 
<terryr1028@h...> wrote:
> Alex,
> 
> Sorry to hear about the problems with the MIS VM. The settings 
below 
> were the ones that we used to develop the curves for the 2000P:
> 
> Media Type:              Archival Matte Paper
>  
> Print Quality:           Photo
>  
> High Speed:              Unchecked
>  
> Flip Horizontal:         Unchecked
>  
> Color Management:        Color Controls with Mode set to Vivid and
>                          all sliders left at zero
> 
> My guess would be that if you didn't uncheck the high speed box, 
that 

> is why you saw banding.
> 
> Terry
> 
>

Alex,

Chances are you have those curves if you got them from Paul. The last 
set we did were the 9th generation. Contact me off list and I will 
send those curves to you if you need them. I know Paul was working on 
the 1270 curves, but I don't know how far they have progressed. One 
other thing I forgot to mention, but that you are probably aware of, 
the 2000P curves were written for a PC, not a Mac - the curves are OS 
dependent.

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

> Hello Terry,
> I am at the point of buying an E1270. 
> If you have some good correction curves, I will reinstall 
> the MIS inkset and try again. 
> Even when I got a good print (PremLuster, SuperX),
> the tonal scale was quite poor with much posterization.
> I am sure I tried that step : I use that for the 12x16
> prints - the bidirectional is fine for 8x10.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex P
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "terryr1028" 
> <terryr1028@h...> wrote:
> > Alex,
> > 
> > Sorry to hear about the problems with the MIS VM. The settings 
> below 
> > were the ones that we used to develop the curves for the 2000P:
> > 
> > Media Type:              Archival Matte Paper
> >  
> > Print Quality:           Photo
> >  
> > High Speed:              Unchecked
> >  
> > Flip Horizontal:         Unchecked
> >  
> > Color Management:        Color Controls with Mode set to Vivid and
> >                          all sliders left at zero
> > 
> > My guess would be that if you didn't uncheck the high speed box, 
> that 
> > is why you saw banding.
> > 
> > Terry
> > 
> >

Harvey-

I suspect you will love the 7000.

Actually, the price isn't the biggest deterrent for me right now... 
Space is my curse... I'm still working in my converted wet darkroom 
(sink replaced with counter)... I have 2 1160s, a 1270, a Kodak 8660 
and a scanner taking all the counter top... I love having the 
flexibility to print piezo on one, lyson small gamut on the other, 
etc... Even if I was willing to buy 4 7000s, they just wouldn't 
fit!!! 

I think I'd better find some hextones in cartridge format to try on 
the 1270... If I convert that to BW use, I'll get a 1280 for color... 
But I'm going to need some kind of rack to stack these puppies...

I thought converting to digital was going to have LESS junk in the 
dark room than before....

Thanks,

Tom O'Connell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:
> > What do you recommend as a substitute?
> >
> > Tom O'Connell
> >
> 
> Tom,
> Sorry, but I am of no help...I only know what I have seen of the 
1160s, and I was underwhelmed.
> 
> We just ordered an Epson 7000, which is a 6 color 24" wide printer, 
but probably more than you want to spend,
> at $3K+.
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> 
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography
> > <skid@b...> wrote:
> > > Having taken part in the last B&W print exchange, I was 
surprised
> > at the amount on banding (or corduroy
> > > patterning) that I saw in a great number of the prints done with
> > the 1160 printers, some more apparent than
> > > others.
> > >
> > > From what I understand it depends on the specific printer as to
> > whether this happens, but given the
> > > percentages that showed the problem in the exchange prints, I 
would
> > not consider the 1160.
> > >
> > > Harvey Ferdschneider
> > > partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> > >
> > > qdfb wrote:
> > >
> > > >  The printer comparison is highly misleading for a true B&W
> > workflow.
> > > > The 1160 is probably the best B&W 13" carriage printer out 
there,
> > > > when used with dedicated B&W inksets.  For example, zero dots 
with
> > > > the Cone Piezography B&W inks and software.
> > > > --
> > > > Quentin
> > > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr"
> > > > <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Hello Barry,
> > > > > Thanks for the information...
> > > > > I found this printer comparison.. how does the 1160 perform
> > > > > with the Quad BW inks ??
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > 
http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
> > > > > res.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > 
http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
> > > > > tml
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > alex p
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall"
> > > > > <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using
> > unchipped
> > > > > carts,
> > > > > > making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed 
thick
> > > > > paper well, &
> > > > > > have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3
> > > > > different inksets
> > > > > > plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use
> > anymore. I
> > > > > use the
> > > > > > original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good 
(or
> > > > > better) than
> > > > > > anything I did in the darkroom.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that
> > expense
> > > > vs
> > > > > the
> > > > > > increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra 
bottles of

> > ink
> > > > > for one of
> > > > > > the newer printers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -BK
> > > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Terry,
Yes, I obtained a set or curves from Paul. When I printed a
21 step and graduated grey scale, the shading seemed to not
be linear and the one photo I did print seemed to have flat
grey areas without tonal variation...

Are you saying that the curves for the E1270 
and E1280 are not identical? I thought they were
the same only with the 1280 being capable of 
edge-edge prints ....

I Am Frustrated .. I purchased what I had thought was the
best (consumer priced) Epson printer only to find 
six months later that it is the least desirable one to own.

I am spending 10x more effort attempting to
get Black&White than I ever did with Color.. Pain !!!

Thanks,
Alex P

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><>><><

Alex,

Chances are you have those curves if you got them from Paul. The last 
set we did were the 9th generation. Contact me off list and I will 
send those curves to you if you need them. I know Paul was working on 
the 1270 curves, but I don't know how far they have progressed. One 
other thing I forgot to mention, but that you are probably aware of, 
the 2000P curves were written for a PC, not a Mac - the curves are OS 
dependent.

Terry

Alex wrote:

>...
>Are you saying that the curves for the E1270
>and E1280 are not identical?

The 1270 and 1280 curves are different.  I have draft 1270 curves for those
who want them.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Alex-

We are all spending 10x more trouble on BW than color... Epson and HP 
and Canon have spent years and millions to make color easy... We are 
the pioneers on BW... But it's worth it!!!!!

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> Hello Terry,
> Yes, I obtained a set or curves from Paul. When I printed a
> 21 step and graduated grey scale, the shading seemed to not
> be linear and the one photo I did print seemed to have flat
> grey areas without tonal variation...
> 
> Are you saying that the curves for the E1270 
> and E1280 are not identical? I thought they were
> the same only with the 1280 being capable of 
> edge-edge prints ....
> 
> I Am Frustrated .. I purchased what I had thought was the
> best (consumer priced) Epson printer only to find 
> six months later that it is the least desirable one to own.
> 
> I am spending 10x more effort attempting to
> get Black&White than I ever did with Color.. Pain !!!
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex P
> 
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><>><><
> 
> Alex,
> 
> Chances are you have those curves if you got them from Paul. The 
last 
> set we did were the 9th generation. Contact me off list and I will 
> send those curves to you if you need them. I know Paul was working 
on 
> the 1270 curves, but I don't know how far they have progressed. One 
> other thing I forgot to mention, but that you are probably aware 
of, 
> the 2000P curves were written for a PC, not a Mac - the curves are 
OS 

> dependent.
> 
> Terry

Paul-

I would love to get these... I sent you and email asking if he 1280 
was the same (no need to respond to the email).

Where and how to we get the draft 1270 curves?

BTW, I just bought a set of VM carts for my 1160... Soon as I finish 
off the Lyson SG carts in it, I intend to give the VM a try. I've 
been reluctant to give up the ability to print good glossy neutral 
and cool prints, but the more I print with the FS inks and Piezo 
driver, the more I'm willing to give up the glossy... I suspect that 
I will be even more of that mind after I try your curves.

My idea is to compare VM on 1160 and 1270 side by side and then pick 
one and set up a CIS on that printer.

I must say, you sure are giving a lot back to the community here... A 
lot more than you could possibly be getting from MIS in comps... I 
wonder if there isn't some more formal way the rest of us cannot 
pitch in and help you in your work? That's the advantage of the 
internet and digital, after all... I, for one, would be very willing 
to help out.

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Alex wrote:
> 
> >...
> >Are you saying that the curves for the E1270
> >and E1280 are not identical?
> 
> The 1270 and 1280 curves are different.  I have draft 1270 curves 
for those

> who want them.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Tom,
We know the lack of space problem.  Here in NYC we have an especially small apartment.  Our solution was that
we (reluctantly) decided that we had to go 'vertical'.  The 7000 is going over the top of the monitor.  It
will be on a (very sturdy) shelf about 5 feet off the ground.

Scary Monsters!  Good thing we are both tall!

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC



tomoc wrote:

>  Harvey-
>
> I suspect you will love the 7000.
>
> Actually, the price isn't the biggest deterrent for me right now...
> Space is my curse... I'm still working in my converted wet darkroom
> (sink replaced with counter)... I have 2 1160s, a 1270, a Kodak 8660
> and a scanner taking all the counter top... I love having the
> flexibility to print piezo on one, lyson small gamut on the other,
> etc... Even if I was willing to buy 4 7000s, they just wouldn't
> fit!!!
>
> I think I'd better find some hextones in cartridge format to try on
> the 1270... If I convert that to BW use, I'll get a 1280 for color...
> But I'm going to need some kind of rack to stack these puppies...
>
> I thought converting to digital was going to have LESS junk in the
> dark room than before....
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom O'Connell
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography
> <skid@b...> wrote:
> > > What do you recommend as a substitute?
> > >
> > > Tom O'Connell
> > >
> >
> > Tom,
> > Sorry, but I am of no help...I only know what I have seen of the
> 1160s, and I was underwhelmed.
> >
> > We just ordered an Epson 7000, which is a 6 color 24" wide printer,
> but probably more than you want to spend,
> > at $3K+.
> >
> > Harvey Ferdschneider
> > partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography
> > > <skid@b...> wrote:
> > > > Having taken part in the last B&W print exchange, I was
> surprised
> > > at the amount on banding (or corduroy
> > > > patterning) that I saw in a great number of the prints done with
> > > the 1160 printers, some more apparent than
> > > > others.
> > > >
> > > > From what I understand it depends on the specific printer as to
> > > whether this happens, but given the
> > > > percentages that showed the problem in the exchange prints, I
> would
> > > not consider the 1160.
> > > >
> > > > Harvey Ferdschneider
> > > > partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> > > >
> > > > qdfb wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  The printer comparison is highly misleading for a true B&W
> > > workflow.
> > > > > The 1160 is probably the best B&W 13" carriage printer out
> there,
> > > > > when used with dedicated B&W inksets.  For example, zero dots
> with
> > > > > the Cone Piezography B&W inks and software.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Quentin
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr"
> > > > > <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Barry,
> > > > > > Thanks for the information...
> > > > > > I found this printer comparison.. how does the 1160 perform
> > > > > > with the Quad BW inks ??
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/light_squa
> > > > > > res.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/images/B_W/color/med_dark.h
> > > > > > tml
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > alex p
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall"
> > > > > > <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > The 1160 was the last 13" 4-color Epson printer using
> > > unchipped
> > > > > > carts,
> > > > > > > making them ideal for CIS/CFS mods. They are quiet, feed
> thick
> > > > > > paper well, &
> > > > > > > have a 4 picoliter droplet size. I have 3 1160's running 3
> > > > > > different inksets
> > > > > > > plus a spare in waiting; my 1200 sees very little use
> > > anymore. I
> > > > > > use the
> > > > > > > original MIS quad for BW, & get prints that look as good
> (or
> > > > > > better) than
> > > > > > > anything I did in the darkroom.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't know what they cost now, but I would weigh that
> > > expense
> > > > > vs
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > increased cost of buying a chipped CIS & two extra
> bottles of
> > > ink
> > > > > > for one of
> > > > > > > the newer printers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -BK
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Interesting how we manage this... I remember my first apartment... 
First used a spare bedroom with tinfoil taped in the windows and 
carried buckets of water in to mix chemicals etc...

Built the house I live in now almost 20 years ago... The deal with my 
wife was that she could design everything else, but I got a killer 
darkroom...6 foot sink with 3 temp faucets, overhead safelight and 
stereo speakers and nice fan in a 14x6 room... No wasted space, but 
all I needed.

Kind of interesting how the evolution to digital went... Started by 
having printers in the sink, then had the sink ripped out and now 
have a horseshoe counter with the same relatively small standing 
space (3x6 with a tall stool)... But all the comforts I appreciated 
in a darkroom. It's only after completing the conversion that I see 
the fallacy of it... I no longer need a DARKroom... What I am dying 
for is a WINDOW <g>. (if this is my worse complaint, I must have it 
pretty good <g>). I think I can pretty easily build a larger shelf 
under the counter and sort of go "vertical" downwards with some 
grommets for wiring etc... Great to have new challenges...

would love to see some of your work on the 7000... Looking forward to 
a print exchange you are in.

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:
> Tom,
> We know the lack of space problem.  Here in NYC we have an 
especially small apartment.  Our solution was that
> we (reluctantly) decided that we had to go 'vertical'.  The 7000 is 
going over the top of the monitor.  It

> will be on a (very sturdy) shelf about 5 feet off the ground.
> 
> Scary Monsters!  Good thing we are both tall!
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> 
> 
> tomoc wrote:
> 
>

Hello Tom,
Thanks - 

Here is an amusing reply when I inquired about the possibility 
of Epson 2000P quad inks for black & white printing ...

<><><><><><>
Thank you for taking the time to contact Epson.  It is my pleasure to
respond to your inquiry.......
Epson does not have plans of making any white ink, in future.
<><><><><><>

White is about the only color I Can print !!

Smiles,
Alex P


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <tomoc@y...> wrote:
> Alex-
> 
> We are all spending 10x more trouble on BW than color... Epson and
HP 
> and Canon have spent years and millions to make color easy... We
are 

> the pioneers on BW... But it's worth it!!!!!
> 
> Tom O'Connell
>

Paul,
I can purchase a 1270 for $100 less than a 1280.
Any performance gain for the extra money ??

Thanks,
Alex P

> 
> The 1270 and 1280 curves are different.  I have draft 1270 curves for those
> who want them.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

In a message dated 12/29/01 6:11:54 AM, tomoc@... writes:

<< I think I'd better find some hextones in cartridge format to try on 
the 1270... If I convert that to BW use, I'll get a 1280 for color... 
But I'm going to need some kind of rack to stack these puppies...

I thought converting to digital was going to have LESS junk in the 
dark room than before....

Thanks, >>

Hi Tom:

Believe it or not, 4 printers can work very well stacked on a $60-80 
open-ended shelf unit from a place like Target.  The only slight hassle is 
loading sheets, but the great thing abouth those units is that you can 
customize their design.

Also, a 7000 can go on any table-top, or even 2 file cabinets, making it 
quite a space saver.

All the best!

-Andy Darlow

Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions

Andrew Darlow Images International
www.andydarlow.com
andy@...
Toll free- 1-877-ADarlow

In a message dated 12/29/01 2:13:46 PM, a_pettit_jr@... writes:

<< Paul,
I can purchase a 1270 for $100 less than a 1280.
Any performance gain for the extra money ??

Thanks,
Alex P >>

Hi Alex, I'm not Paul but...

The main advantage I see is a beautiful Black and White with the black ink 
only using the 1280.  It would be so simple to just buy MIS black pigment in 
carts for this purpose and swap out to other inksets if you want to 
experiment.  

All the best!

-Andy Darlow

Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions

Andrew Darlow Images International
www.andydarlow.com
andy@...
Toll free- 1-877-ADarlow

> What I am dying 
> for is a WINDOW <g>. (if this is my worse complaint, I must have it
> pretty good <g>).

Interesting on this point too -- when I went digital I shared a long
storefront warehouse space, with windows only in the front of the building.
I was, of course, in the rearmost space, in the dark. I always yearned for
windows.

Then, two years later, I bought an old Victorian home and converted it into
an office. As I did the renovation, I lusted over my TWO eight-foot-tall
windows in my office, right beside my desk!

Once I moved in and started actually working and scanning, I immediately cut
up an old black velvet duvatene and covered the windows pure black, so I'd
get a consistent monitor "look". I've been here over a year, and the black
covers have been off maybe twice, for a total of about two days!

So think twice before you started drilling guide holes in your wall...

Instead, I'd get one of those nice chairs, for back support, and a satellite
dish with digital music express, and a 100-disc CD changer.

Mark Tucker
http://marktucker.com

Tom wrote:

>...
>My idea is to compare VM on 1160 and 1270 side by side and then pick
>one and set up a CIS on that printer.

The winner might simply be the one with the most refined adjustment curve
(and it might be different for the different tones).  If both machines had
equally well-written curves, I'd bet on the 1270 (at least for those who
really get their noses into the prints).  The six ink machines are slightly
smoother.  While I think each generation of Epson is probably better, some
of the 1200 outputs I've seen are about as smooth as one can get.

>... I wonder if there isn't some more formal way the rest of us cannot
>pitch in and help you in your work?

Writing the curves is really where the work is.  I was hoping people would
write transfer function or adjustment curves to act as paper profiles and
share them with the group.  Several people are looking at ways to automate
the writing of the curves.  A WYSIWYG system for the tones would have some
benefits also -- at least with split toning.

I'll want to have a number of people test strips of the "non-warming" ink
when I think I've got a final mix on that.  I don't trust my fluorescent
light fader to be representative of all conditions.  So, exposing test
strips to a number of different light sources and oxidizers would make sure
there are no embarrassing surprises.  (I have the "non-warming" in quotes
because how it reacts varies with the paper.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Alex,

You wrote:

>I can purchase a 1270 for $100 less than a 1280.
>Any performance gain for the extra money ??

I don't really know.  The curves will all be brought up to about the same
level ultimately.  (The most problematic one I have out there now may be the
1280-pc warm.)

If there is a difference in susceptibility to banding between the two, that
would be the deciding factor for me.  However, others who may have owned the
machines (even on other lists) would be the ones to ask.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Yeah... Cleavis emailed me a pic of his... I'm going to try stacking.

The good news is that the 1160s (if you can find them) are cheap 
enough to dedicate to different inks... And they are so slow, you 
really need a few running at once or you go nuts with boredom <g>.

What would YOU rather have...eleven 1160s or one 7000? 

Tom


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., shashinka@a... wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 12/29/01 6:11:54 AM, tomoc@y... writes:
> 
> << I think I'd better find some hextones in cartridge format to try 
on 
> the 1270... If I convert that to BW use, I'll get a 1280 for 
color... 
> But I'm going to need some kind of rack to stack these puppies...
> 
> I thought converting to digital was going to have LESS junk in the 
> dark room than before....
> 
> Thanks, >>
> 
> Hi Tom:
> 
> Believe it or not, 4 printers can work very well stacked on a $60-
80 
> open-ended shelf unit from a place like Target.  The only slight 
hassle is 
> loading sheets, but the great thing abouth those units is that you 
can 
> customize their design.
> 
> Also, a 7000 can go on any table-top, or even 2 file cabinets, 
making it 

> quite a space saver.
> 
> All the best!
> 
> -Andy Darlow
> 
> Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
> 
> Andrew Darlow Images International
> www.andydarlow.com
> andy@a...
> Toll free- 1-877-ADarlow

Paul-

Just speak up when you want some volunteers...

Tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Tom wrote:
> 
> >...
> >My idea is to compare VM on 1160 and 1270 side by side and then 
pick
> >one and set up a CIS on that printer.
> 
> The winner might simply be the one with the most refined adjustment 
curve
> (and it might be different for the different tones).  If both 
machines had
> equally well-written curves, I'd bet on the 1270 (at least for 
those who
> really get their noses into the prints).  The six ink machines are 
slightly
> smoother.  While I think each generation of Epson is probably 
better, some
> of the 1200 outputs I've seen are about as smooth as one can get.
> 
> >... I wonder if there isn't some more formal way the rest of us 
cannot
> >pitch in and help you in your work?
> 
> Writing the curves is really where the work is.  I was hoping 
people would
> write transfer function or adjustment curves to act as paper 
profiles and
> share them with the group.  Several people are looking at ways to 
automate
> the writing of the curves.  A WYSIWYG system for the tones would 
have some
> benefits also -- at least with split toning.
> 
> I'll want to have a number of people test strips of the "non-
warming" ink
> when I think I've got a final mix on that.  I don't trust my 
fluorescent
> light fader to be representative of all conditions.  So, exposing 
test
> strips to a number of different light sources and oxidizers would 
make sure
> there are no embarrassing surprises.  (I have the "non-warming" in 
quotes

> because how it reacts varies with the paper.)
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

on 12/29/01 5:58 PM, tomoc wrote:

> What would YOU rather have...eleven 1160s or one 7000?
> 
> Tom

One 7000.
Todd

Wow... That really makes you wonder how they became the "leader"

tom



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> Hello Tom,
> Thanks - 
> 
> Here is an amusing reply when I inquired about the possibility 
> of Epson 2000P quad inks for black & white printing ...
> 
> <><><><><><>
> Thank you for taking the time to contact Epson.  It is my pleasure 
to
> respond to your inquiry.......
> Epson does not have plans of making any white ink, in future.
> <><><><><><>
> 
> White is about the only color I Can print !!
> 
> Smiles,
> Alex P
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <tomoc@y...> 
wrote:

> > Alex-
> > 
> > We are all spending 10x more trouble on BW than color... Epson and
> HP 
> > and Canon have spent years and millions to make color easy... We
> are 
> > the pioneers on BW... But it's worth it!!!!!
> > 
> > Tom O'Connell
> >

Can't argue... Hard to imagine 11 printers working at once <g>, but 
hard for me to stick to one at a time, either...what a monster I am 
creating <g>

Tom 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:

> on 12/29/01 5:58 PM, tomoc wrote:
> 
> > What would YOU rather have...eleven 1160s or one 7000?
> > 
> > Tom
> 
> One 7000.
> Todd