Digital BW, The Print

> From: wwodets <odets@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:57:57 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .
> 
> I've followed this entire thread about workspaces, tonal management,
> etc. and what is most striking is how convoluted the non-managed
> workflow is and how simple and reliable the QTR ICC workflow is.
> 
> Clayton's recent experiment with gamma 2.2 is a laudable effort (the
> highlights are this, the midtones are flat,etc.), but it is so
> complex.  The reason it is complex is that it is an effort to use a
> workspace as a printer profile, or said differently to try to make
> the screen look like the printer output (with a given set of driver
> settings like "light.").  What we really want to do is make the
> printer output look like the screen.
> 
> I have been through three workflows on the 2400, the last the QTR
> Create ICC.  The first was an attempt to use the Epson ABW driver
> controls to make the printer output match the screen.  This was very
> complicated, very time-consuming and quite unreliable, and it had to
> be repeated for each different paper.  The second workflow was more
> like Clayton's, a "Gamma 2.2" workflow in which I used a PS "viewing
> curve," a layer curve, to make the screen look like the printer
> ouput.  Again, this was very time consuming to create, I was
> constantly tweaking it because different images didn't display quite
> right, and a new curve was needed for each paper.  Conceptually, the
> first attempt was an effort at making the printer output look the
> screen, but it was much too complex, inflexible and unreliable.  The
> second attempt was an effort to make the screen look like the printer
> output.  The third flow is the QTR Create ICC flow.  This is dead
> simple to create and to use, and results are dead stable.  For a new
> paper, a new profile is made, about a five minute job.  I feel like
> I've been released from purgatory with this solution and I am saving
> a small fortune in ink and paper.
> 
> As nearly as I can discern, the resistance to the QTR Create ICC flow
> is that it is unfamiliar, seems too technical and, most importantly,
> requires the purchase of a densitometer or spectrometer.  The
> familiarity should be there from color management, as the function is
> the same.  The ICC workflow, in fact, requires a lot less technical
> fiddling than other solutions, certainly for anything like the same
> level of reliability and consistency.  The cost of the instrument
> remains a problem.
> 
> So, is there not someone out there with the time and inclination to
> provide BW profiles for printer/ink/paper combinations?  This could
> be done by charging a customer a "first time" or "royalty" fee of $50
> for a profile, with this money going to Roy.  On top of that would be
> an additional fee for the first profile and any additional profiles
> (for other papers, etc.).  This is an idea whose time has come.  It
> would expand Roy's income, it would relieve a tremendous amount of
> suffering on earth, and it would cut into Epson's profits on wasted
> ink and paper.
> 
> Any takers on this?
> 
> Walt
> 
> P.S.  The one thing my suggestion leaves out is the issue of monitor
> calibration, but I suspect the Adobe Gamma is plenty good enough for
> this.  I have always used a calibrated monitor, so I'm not sure about
> this.

> provide BW profiles for printer/ink/paper combinations? This could
> be done by charging a customer a "first time" or "royalty" fee of $50
> for a profile, with this money going to Roy. On top of that would be
> an additional fee for the first profile and any additional profiles
> (for other papers, etc.). This is an idea whose time has come. It
> would expand Roy's income, it would relieve a tremendous amount of
> suffering on earth, and it would cut into Epson's profits on wasted
> ink and paper.
>
> Any takers on this?
>
> Walt
>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .


I think this is an excellent idea. Roy and his associates have done a
fantastic job of providing folks with curves and profiles for QTR for
so many machines and inksets and hue tonalities. It comes to a point
where the vast number of possible permutations of inksets and
machines, along with the continual updating of Mac and PC Os'... well,
we just can't expect this to continue forever.

I for one like the idea that the makers of QTR continue to provide all
this extra support or farm it out, but they should charge for it. The
$50 per profile sounds reasonable, or there could be a package of a
few profiles or something. However, as Steve pointed out, there are
variations in all of these printers, even the newer ones. Personally I
think what is needed is both - a wide assortment of generic profiles
for a fee as well as custom created monochrome profiles for specific
machines, similar to what Jon Cone did with Piezzo I Quads. Look, we
all know that some people are more capable of doing this than most,
and the more they do it the better they get, but nothing is free in
this world.

John
-------------

So, is there not someone out there with the time and inclination to
> provide BW profiles for printer/ink/paper combinations? This could
> be done by charging a customer a "first time" or "royalty" fee of $50
> for a profile, with this money going to Roy. On top of that would be
> an additional fee for the first profile and any additional profiles
> (for other papers, etc.). This is an idea whose time has come. It
> would expand Roy's income, it would relieve a tremendous amount of
> suffering on earth, and it would cut into Epson's profits on wasted
> ink and paper.
>
> Any takers on this?
>
> Walt
>






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
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On Nov 22, 2005, at 12:36 PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> As I proposed this some time ago I guess I owe an explanation as to  
> why I
> haven't offered QTR ICC profiles to paid up QTR users.  The reason  
> is I use
> a 4800 with Eboni ink in the K slot so my setup is different.   
> Eboni makes a
> big difference (vs Epson MK).  The other factor is that like any  
> profile
> it's really only good for the printer that printed the test strip.
> Nonetheless I think people would see benefit from a profile even if  
> it's not
> perfect for their printer.  There are likely more 2400 users than  
> 4800 users
> though so how about someone with a 2400 and a spectrophotometer  
> pitching in
> some work for the paid up QTR users that don't own a densitometer!
>
> Probably the right solution is for people to post their QTR ICC  
> profiles for
> download (if they can).  I'm not sure Roy wants to manage a  
> library!!  Those
> who download the profiles and use them - even if they are not using  
> QTR -
> owe Roy his shareware fee.
>
> I did the 4800 QTR curves that come with the download - they also  
> assume the
> use of Eboni ink in the K slot - and I have QTR ICC profiles for  
> each curve.
> I'll post these for download later today here:
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/stevekale/stevekale2/FileSharing37.html
>
> I have not finished doing QTR ICC profiles for Adv B&W.
>
>
>> From: wwodets <odets@...>
>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:57:57 -0000
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .
>>
>> I've followed this entire thread about workspaces, tonal management,
>> etc. and what is most striking is how convoluted the non-managed
>> workflow is and how simple and reliable the QTR ICC workflow is.
>>
>> Clayton's recent experiment with gamma 2.2 is a laudable effort (the
>> highlights are this, the midtones are flat,etc.), but it is so
>> complex.  The reason it is complex is that it is an effort to use a
>> workspace as a printer profile, or said differently to try to make
>> the screen look like the printer output (with a given set of driver
>> settings like "light.").  What we really want to do is make the
>> printer output look like the screen.
>>
>> I have been through three workflows on the 2400, the last the QTR
>> Create ICC.  The first was an attempt to use the Epson ABW driver
>> controls to make the printer output match the screen.  This was very
>> complicated, very time-consuming and quite unreliable, and it had to
>> be repeated for each different paper.  The second workflow was more
>> like Clayton's, a "Gamma 2.2" workflow in which I used a PS "viewing
>> curve," a layer curve, to make the screen look like the printer
>> ouput.  Again, this was very time consuming to create, I was
>> constantly tweaking it because different images didn't display quite
>> right, and a new curve was needed for each paper.  Conceptually, the
>> first attempt was an effort at making the printer output look the
>> screen, but it was much too complex, inflexible and unreliable.  The
>> second attempt was an effort to make the screen look like the printer
>> output.  The third flow is the QTR Create ICC flow.  This is dead
>> simple to create and to use, and results are dead stable.  For a new
>> paper, a new profile is made, about a five minute job.  I feel like
>> I've been released from purgatory with this solution and I am saving
>> a small fortune in ink and paper.
>>
>> As nearly as I can discern, the resistance to the QTR Create ICC flow
>> is that it is unfamiliar, seems too technical and, most importantly,
>> requires the purchase of a densitometer or spectrometer.  The
>> familiarity should be there from color management, as the function is
>> the same.  The ICC workflow, in fact, requires a lot less technical
>> fiddling than other solutions, certainly for anything like the same
>> level of reliability and consistency.  The cost of the instrument
>> remains a problem.
>>
>> So, is there not someone out there with the time and inclination to
>> provide BW profiles for printer/ink/paper combinations?  This could
>> be done by charging a customer a "first time" or "royalty" fee of $50
>> for a profile, with this money going to Roy.  On top of that would be
>> an additional fee for the first profile and any additional profiles
>> (for other papers, etc.).  This is an idea whose time has come.  It
>> would expand Roy's income, it would relieve a tremendous amount of
>> suffering on earth, and it would cut into Epson's profits on wasted
>> ink and paper.
>>
>> Any takers on this?
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> P.S.  The one thing my suggestion leaves out is the issue of monitor
>> calibration, but I suspect the Adobe Gamma is plenty good enough for
>> this.  I have always used a calibrated monitor, so I'm not sure about

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Jones <peanutdogs@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:52:09 -0000
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .

   Well I have been following this thread and the forum for a long
time. I am a R2400 user and am getting great results but am having
troubles matching my calibrated screen to the print. Most people say
I am a pretty smart guy, but I must admit that all of the talk about
gamma curves and profiles has my head spinning and I really don't
think I understand what is going on here. (maybe no one does??) I
don't own a spectrophotometer and feel that this is too expensive
for me. I even took a course from the QTR creator and must admit
also that I remain baffled as did most of the participants.

If someone could provide some service to provide a resonable way to
match screen and print (I use R2400, K3 inks, EPSG paper)and some
instructions on how to use a "profile", I would certainly pay them
or thank them. I guess my frustration stems from the apparent fact
that there is no standardized method yet and that the R2400 driver
lacks a clear soft proofing method so we are still using
experimental workaround methods created by users trying to come to
grips with this.

At this point after reading all of this I am so confused what to do
that I am somewhat exhausted by the whole affair. Color printing
seems so stright forward. Such a pity that we haven't got something
similar with B&W.

Hopefully someone like Clayton will continue to work out a
standardized approach and help all of us non-engineer types with a
tutorial on how to proceed. Thanks for all the continuing efforts.

Scott






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources 
as they
are often being updated.

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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile,
aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership 
without
notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
from the
membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines,
and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See
"Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO!
GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY 
DIRECT,
INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, 
INCLUDING BUT
NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR 
OTHER
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, 
THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR 
TRANSMISSIONS OR
DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

>
> Scott-
> 
> You might take a small measure of comfort in knowing that you're 
> certainly not the only one having trouble in the digital darkroom. I 
> have a simple suggestion that may help until you're ready/willing to 
> dive into deeper water.
> 
> Use the Epson ABW mode to make a print from a grayscale image you know 
> well and has a full range of tonal values. If you know how, add a tonal 
> ramp to the image in Photoshop (I typically use a 21-step ramp). The 
> ramp is useful for visually evaluating how the color inks are producing 
> the grayscale values from print black (dmax) to print white (dmin). If 
> you want help with this, contact me off-list and I'll provide the 
> instructions for you.
> 
> In Photoshop's Print with Preview panel make sure that Document is 
> clicked on and select No Color Management. Your rendering intent will 
> be the choice you made in PS's Color Settings (either Perceptual or 
> Relative Colormetric; if you're unsure about this use Perceptual). In 
> the ABW print panel do not change any of the default settings.
> 
> View the print under a trustworthy light; this is actually very 
> important. Have the file opened in Photoshop and experiment with 
> different gamma and/or dot gain settings until you find one that is a 
> close match to the print. If you have a good match, you'll effectively 
> be "soft proofing" grayscale image files by using the gamm/dot gain 
> setting you've determined is the best match.
> 
> If you find a gamm/dot gain setting that is close, but not close 
> enough, open PS's Color Settings panel and navigate through the Working 
> Spaces Gray menu to Custom Dot Gain. The Custom Dot Gain panel will 
> allow you to tailor a curve to better match the image on-screen to the 
> print viewed under your trustworthy light. Give this custom dot gain 
> curve a unique name and make sure it's selected as your new Working 
> Spaces Gray profile. If you need help with this, contact me off-list.
> 
> Done properly this approach provides a very simple and easily 
> implimented means to improve your on-screen to print match without 
> needing a spectrophotometer or densitometer. It's a good idea to keep 
> in mind that you'll never achieve a complete on-screen to print match; 
> the laws of physics won't allow it. But you can author a PS working 
> environment and use the new ABW workflow--without the need for 
> specialized equipment--that can produce predictable high quality prints.
> 
> Bill Kennedy
> Austin, Texas
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Jones <peanutdogs@h...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:52:09 -0000
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .
> 
>    Well I have been following this thread and the forum for a long
> time. I am a R2400 user and am getting great results but am having
> troubles matching my calibrated screen to the print. Most people say
> I am a pretty smart guy, but I must admit that all of the talk about
> gamma curves and profiles has my head spinning and I really don't
> think I understand what is going on here. (maybe no one does??) I
> don't own a spectrophotometer and feel that this is too expensive
> for me. I even took a course from the QTR creator and must admit
> also that I remain baffled as did most of the participants.
> 
> If someone could provide some service to provide a resonable way to
> match screen and print (I use R2400, K3 inks, EPSG paper)and some
> instructions on how to use a "profile", I would certainly pay them
> or thank them. I guess my frustration stems from the apparent fact
> that there is no standardized method yet and that the R2400 driver
> lacks a clear soft proofing method so we are still using
> experimental workaround methods created by users trying to come to
> grips with this.
> 
> At this point after reading all of this I am so confused what to do
> that I am somewhat exhausted by the whole affair. Color printing
> seems so stright forward. Such a pity that we haven't got something
> similar with B&W.
> 
> Hopefully someone like Clayton will continue to work out a
> standardized approach and help all of us non-engineer types with a
> tutorial on how to proceed. Thanks for all the continuing efforts.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources 
> as they
> are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
> same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them
> short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
> Hostile,
> aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership 
> without
> notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
> from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines,
> and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
> Moderators. See
> "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO!
> GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
> "MODERATORS" OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY 
> DIRECT,
> INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, 
> INCLUDING BUT
> NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR 
> OTHER
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, 
> THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
> DAMAGES),
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR 
> TRANSMISSIONS OR
> DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

> From: Scott Jones <peanutdogs@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:52:09 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .
> 
> Well I have been following this thread and the forum for a long
> time. I am a R2400 user and am getting great results but am having
> troubles matching my calibrated screen to the print. Most people say
> I am a pretty smart guy, but I must admit that all of the talk about
> gamma curves and profiles has my head spinning and I really don't
> think I understand what is going on here. (maybe no one does??) I
> don't own a spectrophotometer and feel that this is too expensive
> for me. I even took a course from the QTR creator and must admit
> also that I remain baffled as did most of the participants.
> 
> If someone could provide some service to provide a resonable way to
> match screen and print (I use R2400, K3 inks, EPSG paper)and some
> instructions on how to use a "profile", I would certainly pay them
> or thank them. I guess my frustration stems from the apparent fact
> that there is no standardized method yet and that the R2400 driver
> lacks a clear soft proofing method so we are still using
> experimental workaround methods created by users trying to come to
> grips with this.
> 
> At this point after reading all of this I am so confused what to do
> that I am somewhat exhausted by the whole affair. Color printing
> seems so stright forward. Such a pity that we haven't got something
> similar with B&W.
> 
> Hopefully someone like Clayton will continue to work out a
> standardized approach and help all of us non-engineer types with a
> tutorial on how to proceed. Thanks for all the continuing efforts.
> 
> Scott
>

-----Original Message-----
From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 02:47:35 -0000
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .

   Hey Bill,

How's it going?

That certainly was nice of you to go throught that with him in such
detail.

So, how is the K7 thing going? I am having a replacement printer
delivered to me the first of next week and I have to make a choice
very soon about the mono inkset, either the original Piezzone Quads (
which I like very much) or K6 using Roy's curves and then a custom
linearization. I'm all about longevity so I am against using any
Portfolio Black in there when I only have six channels to work with. I
have heard this and that and that and this about max black and the
neutral set. Do you have any suggestions down there in Austin? You've
worked on both sides of this fence. Whatever I start with I'm going to
stay with.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote:
>
> Scott-
>
> You might take a small measure of comfort in knowing that you're
> certainly not the only one having trouble in the digital darkroom. I
> have a simple suggestion that may help until you're ready/willing to
> dive into deeper water.
>
> Use the Epson ABW mode to make a print from a grayscale image you 
know
> well and has a full range of tonal values. If you know how, add a 
tonal
> ramp to the image in Photoshop (I typically use a 21-step ramp). The
> ramp is useful for visually evaluating how the color inks are 
producing
> the grayscale values from print black (dmax) to print white (dmin). 
If
> you want help with this, contact me off-list and I'll provide the
> instructions for you.
>
> In Photoshop's Print with Preview panel make sure that Document is
> clicked on and select No Color Management. Your rendering intent will
> be the choice you made in PS's Color Settings (either Perceptual or
> Relative Colormetric; if you're unsure about this use Perceptual). In
> the ABW print panel do not change any of the default settings.
>
> View the print under a trustworthy light; this is actually very
> important. Have the file opened in Photoshop and experiment with
> different gamma and/or dot gain settings until you find one that is a
> close match to the print. If you have a good match, you'll 
effectively
> be "soft proofing" grayscale image files by using the gamm/dot gain
> setting you've determined is the best match.
>
> If you find a gamm/dot gain setting that is close, but not close
> enough, open PS's Color Settings panel and navigate through the 
Working
> Spaces Gray menu to Custom Dot Gain. The Custom Dot Gain panel will
> allow you to tailor a curve to better match the image on-screen to 
the
> print viewed under your trustworthy light. Give this custom dot gain
> curve a unique name and make sure it's selected as your new Working
> Spaces Gray profile. If you need help with this, contact me off-list.
>
> Done properly this approach provides a very simple and easily
> implimented means to improve your on-screen to print match without
> needing a spectrophotometer or densitometer. It's a good idea to keep
> in mind that you'll never achieve a complete on-screen to print 
match;
> the laws of physics won't allow it. But you can author a PS working
> environment and use the new ABW workflow--without the need for
> specialized equipment--that can produce predictable high quality 
prints.
>
> Bill Kennedy
> Austin, Texas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Jones <peanutdogs@h...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:52:09 -0000
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .
>
>    Well I have been following this thread and the forum for a long
> time. I am a R2400 user and am getting great results but am having
> troubles matching my calibrated screen to the print. Most people say
> I am a pretty smart guy, but I must admit that all of the talk about
> gamma curves and profiles has my head spinning and I really don't
> think I understand what is going on here. (maybe no one does??) I
> don't own a spectrophotometer and feel that this is too expensive
> for me. I even took a course from the QTR creator and must admit
> also that I remain baffled as did most of the participants.
>
> If someone could provide some service to provide a resonable way to
> match screen and print (I use R2400, K3 inks, EPSG paper)and some
> instructions on how to use a "profile", I would certainly pay them
> or thank them. I guess my frustration stems from the apparent fact
> that there is no standardized method yet and that the R2400 driver
> lacks a clear soft proofing method so we are still using
> experimental workaround methods created by users trying to come to
> grips with this.
>
> At this point after reading all of this I am so confused what to do
> that I am somewhat exhausted by the whole affair. Color printing
> seems so stright forward. Such a pity that we haven't got something
> similar with B&W.
>
> Hopefully someone like Clayton will continue to work out a
> standardized approach and help all of us non-engineer types with a
> tutorial on how to proceed. Thanks for all the continuing efforts.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources
> as they
> are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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B&W
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> GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY
> DIRECT,
> INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES,
> INCLUDING BUT
> NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR
> OTHER
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW,
> THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES),
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE
> PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR
> DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL 
BW,
> THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL 
BW,
> THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>







Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources 
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>
> John-
> 
> We're in the process of converting a 2200 to bulk K7 inks. Have been 
> working with the Bowhaus RIP to build print profiles for K7 and 
> PhotoRag on the 2200; the results are very good. Dmax close to 1.65 
> with very clean transition from one ink to the next. This actually took 
> more effort than we thought; the process and documentation with both 
> Bowhaus and QTR just isn't up to speed. This is were improvement really 
> needs to be encouraged. However, the results we're finally getting with 
> Bowhaus are superior to QTR. I suspect that if one were to tunnel 
> deeply into QTR the results would also improve, but we like working 
> with the Bowhaus interface. Since I teach this stuff, the interface is 
> an important consideration.
> 
> Our plan right now is to purchase either a 9800 and run K3 inks (using 
> ColorBurst to drive it) or opt for a 9600 and run a third-party bulk 
> ink system. At the moment we're leaning towards the latter. We'll then 
> convert our 7600 to the K7 inks. I imagine this will take another three 
> or four months before the dust settles.
> 
> So, what we're finding is that the K7 inks, properly profiled, give us 
> very good dmax and an excellent linearized tonal scale. But they have 
> to be properly profiled to achieve this. The authoring process is more 
> rigorous than we thought but that's okay. We've come too far not to 
> push this to a final solution. In the end I think we'll have an 
> excellent grayscale printing solution with K7. I very much like the 
> concept of changing papers to achieve the right "look and feel" for a 
> given image or edition. It resonates with all those years I spent in 
> the wet darkroom. If we need a toned grayscale print--if we need to 
> push the colorcast further than K7--the K3 inks and ColorBurst are an 
> excellent solution.
> 
> Hope that makes sense. Let me know what you decide to do.
> 
> Bill K.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: john dean <deanwork2003@y...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 02:47:35 -0000
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .
> 
>    Hey Bill,
> 
> How's it going?
> 
> That certainly was nice of you to go throught that with him in such
> detail.
> 
> So, how is the K7 thing going? I am having a replacement printer
> delivered to me the first of next week and I have to make a choice
> very soon about the mono inkset, either the original Piezzone Quads (
> which I like very much) or K6 using Roy's curves and then a custom
> linearization. I'm all about longevity so I am against using any
> Portfolio Black in there when I only have six channels to work with. I
> have heard this and that and that and this about max black and the
> neutral set. Do you have any suggestions down there in Austin? You've
> worked on both sides of this fence. Whatever I start with I'm going to
> stay with.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote:
> >
> > Scott-
> >
> > You might take a small measure of comfort in knowing that you're
> > certainly not the only one having trouble in the digital darkroom. I
> > have a simple suggestion that may help until you're ready/willing to
> > dive into deeper water.
> >
> > Use the Epson ABW mode to make a print from a grayscale image you 
> know
> > well and has a full range of tonal values. If you know how, add a 
> tonal
> > ramp to the image in Photoshop (I typically use a 21-step ramp). The
> > ramp is useful for visually evaluating how the color inks are 
> producing
> > the grayscale values from print black (dmax) to print white (dmin). 
> If
> > you want help with this, contact me off-list and I'll provide the
> > instructions for you.
> >
> > In Photoshop's Print with Preview panel make sure that Document is
> > clicked on and select No Color Management. Your rendering intent will
> > be the choice you made in PS's Color Settings (either Perceptual or
> > Relative Colormetric; if you're unsure about this use Perceptual). In
> > the ABW print panel do not change any of the default settings.
> >
> > View the print under a trustworthy light; this is actually very
> > important. Have the file opened in Photoshop and experiment with
> > different gamma and/or dot gain settings until you find one that is a
> > close match to the print. If you have a good match, you'll 
> effectively
> > be "soft proofing" grayscale image files by using the gamm/dot gain
> > setting you've determined is the best match.
> >
> > If you find a gamm/dot gain setting that is close, but not close
> > enough, open PS's Color Settings panel and navigate through the 
> Working
> > Spaces Gray menu to Custom Dot Gain. The Custom Dot Gain panel will
> > allow you to tailor a curve to better match the image on-screen to 
> the
> > print viewed under your trustworthy light. Give this custom dot gain
> > curve a unique name and make sure it's selected as your new Working
> > Spaces Gray profile. If you need help with this, contact me off-list.
> >
> > Done properly this approach provides a very simple and easily
> > implimented means to improve your on-screen to print match without
> > needing a spectrophotometer or densitometer. It's a good idea to keep
> > in mind that you'll never achieve a complete on-screen to print 
> match;
> > the laws of physics won't allow it. But you can author a PS working
> > environment and use the new ABW workflow--without the need for
> > specialized equipment--that can produce predictable high quality 
> prints.
> >
> > Bill Kennedy
> > Austin, Texas
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott Jones <peanutdogs@h...>
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:52:09 -0000
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Solving this BW tonal management issue . . .
> >
> >    Well I have been following this thread and the forum for a long
> > time. I am a R2400 user and am getting great results but am having
> > troubles matching my calibrated screen to the print. Most people say
> > I am a pretty smart guy, but I must admit that all of the talk about
> > gamma curves and profiles has my head spinning and I really don't
> > think I understand what is going on here. (maybe no one does??) I
> > don't own a spectrophotometer and feel that this is too expensive
> > for me. I even took a course from the QTR creator and must admit
> > also that I remain baffled as did most of the participants.
> >
> > If someone could provide some service to provide a resonable way to
> > match screen and print (I use R2400, K3 inks, EPSG paper)and some
> > instructions on how to use a "profile", I would certainly pay them
> > or thank them. I guess my frustration stems from the apparent fact
> > that there is no standardized method yet and that the R2400 driver
> > lacks a clear soft proofing method so we are still using
> > experimental workaround methods created by users trying to come to
> > grips with this.
> >
> > At this point after reading all of this I am so confused what to do
> > that I am somewhat exhausted by the whole affair. Color printing
> > seems so stright forward. Such a pity that we haven't got something
> > similar with B&W.
> >
> > Hopefully someone like Clayton will continue to work out a
> > standardized approach and help all of us non-engineer types with a
> > tutorial on how to proceed. Thanks for all the continuing efforts.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources
> > as they
> > are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
> > same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep them
> > short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames.
> > Hostile,
> > aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> > without
> > notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> > from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines,
> > and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> > Moderators. See
> > "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO!
> > GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY
> > DIRECT,
> > INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES,
> > INCLUDING BUT
> > NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR
> > OTHER
> > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
> BW,
> > THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES),
> > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE
> > PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR
> > DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL 
> BW,
> > THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL 
> BW,
> > THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources 
> as they
> are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
> same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them
> short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
> Hostile,
> aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership 
> without
> notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
> from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines,
> and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
> Moderators. See
> "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO!
> GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
> "MODERATORS" OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY 
> DIRECT,
> INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, 
> INCLUDING BUT
> NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR 
> OTHER
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, 
> THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
> DAMAGES),
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR 
> TRANSMISSIONS OR
> DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

>
> Hello Carl,
> 
> >...I'm in the process of switching my 2400 over to MIS k4 inks.  
> 
> I am real interested to hear your opinion on these inks.  I hope you
> will give us a report at some point.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Greg
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 4:49 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density

Carl, are you printing in BiD or Uni-direction? If BiD, try using UniD
to see if the extra dry time between passes will bring your dmax back
up (or is it down??). Anyway, that might help you get back to a darker
black.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
> Moody
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:01 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
> 
> I'm not entirely surprised at the Dmax Carl reported.  When I asked MIS
> directly if the K4 photo black achieved the same Dmax as OEM K3, the reply
> was "K4 is more stable".  That sounded like a no, to me.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Greg
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 4:49 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
> 
> Carl, are you printing in BiD or Uni-direction? If BiD, try using UniD
> to see if the extra dry time between passes will bring your dmax back
> up (or is it down??). Anyway, that might help you get back to a darker
> black.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Nov 28, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Oddly, the 2400 can't handle the high loads of the older MIS PK  
> inks.  I ran
> into that issue with the R200/220 also.  So, for that system I  
> found the
> best dmax was with a PK that had a modified load and also was  
> neutralized,
> but not to the extent of the original PKN.  At any rate, the R2 PK I
> recommended to MIS, and I assume they are selling, is a PKN with a  
> modified
> load.  I have not tried it in a 2400, but it might be close to  
> optimal for
> that printer also.  I think the R2 carts are the same as the 2400,  
> so a
> pre-filled R2 PKn with a 2400 chip on it would test the idea.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of  
>> John
>> Moody
>> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:01 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
>>
>> I'm not entirely surprised at the Dmax Carl reported.  When I  
>> asked MIS
>> directly if the K4 photo black achieved the same Dmax as OEM K3,  
>> the reply
>> was "K4 is more stable".  That sounded like a no, to me.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> John Moody
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of  
>> Greg
>> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 4:49 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
>>
>> Carl, are you printing in BiD or Uni-direction? If BiD, try using  
>> UniD
>> to see if the extra dry time between passes will bring your dmax back
>> up (or is it down??). Anyway, that might help you get back to a  
>> darker
>> black.

On Nov 28, 2005, at 4:48 PM, Greg wrote:

> Carl, are you printing in BiD or Uni-direction? If BiD, try using UniD
> to see if the extra dry time between passes will bring your dmax back
> up (or is it down??). Anyway, that might help you get back to a darker
> black.

On Nov 28, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Oddly, the 2400 can't handle the high loads of the older MIS PK  
> inks.  I ran
> into that issue with the R200/220 also.  So, for that system I  
> found the
> best dmax was with a PK that had a modified load and also was  
> neutralized,
> but not to the extent of the original PKN.  At any rate, the R2 PK I
> recommended to MIS, and I assume they are selling, is a PKN with a  
> modified
> load.  I have not tried it in a 2400, but it might be close to  
> optimal for
> that printer also.  I think the R2 carts are the same as the 2400,  
> so a
> pre-filled R2 PKn with a 2400 chip on it would test the idea.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of  
>> John
>> Moody
>> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:01 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
>>
>> I'm not entirely surprised at the Dmax Carl reported.  When I  
>> asked MIS
>> directly if the K4 photo black achieved the same Dmax as OEM K3,  
>> the reply
>> was "K4 is more stable".  That sounded like a no, to me.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> John Moody
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of  
>> Greg
>> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 4:49 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
>>
>> Carl, are you printing in BiD or Uni-direction? If BiD, try using  
>> UniD
>> to see if the extra dry time between passes will bring your dmax back
>> up (or is it down??). Anyway, that might help you get back to a  
>> darker
>> black.

> 
> Carl
> 
> On Nov 28, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> > Oddly, the 2400 can't handle the high loads of the older MIS PK
> > inks.  I ran
> > into that issue with the R200/220 also.  So, for that system I
> > found the
> > best dmax was with a PK that had a modified load and also was
> > neutralized,
> > but not to the extent of the original PKN.  At any rate, the R2 PK I
> > recommended to MIS, and I assume they are selling, is a PKN with a
> > modified
> > load.  I have not tried it in a 2400, but it might be close to
> > optimal for
> > that printer also.  I think the R2 carts are the same as the 2400,
> > so a
> > pre-filled R2 PKn with a 2400 chip on it would test the idea.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> >> John
> >> Moody
> >> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:01 PM
> >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
> >>
> >> I'm not entirely surprised at the Dmax Carl reported.  When I
> >> asked MIS
> >> directly if the K4 photo black achieved the same Dmax as OEM K3,
> >> the reply
> >> was "K4 is more stable".  That sounded like a no, to me.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> John Moody
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> >> Greg
> >> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 4:49 PM
> >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
> >>
> >> Carl, are you printing in BiD or Uni-direction? If BiD, try using
> >> UniD
> >> to see if the extra dry time between passes will bring your dmax back
> >> up (or is it down??). Anyway, that might help you get back to a
> >> darker
> >> black.
> 
> 
> 
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On Nov 28, 2005, at 10:17 PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

> Carl,
>
> Thanks for the K4 report.  Are you planning to test the MK version on
> matte paper?
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:04:52 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
> 
> Clayton,
> 
> I will try the MIS MK (Eboni)  as well in the 2400.  I expect that
> dmax will be less with Eboni on Epson VFA (1.77 with Epson MK) and
> more on HPR (1.64 with Epson MK) based on your experience.
> 
> Carl

    From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
Subject: Re: MIS k4 black density

Greg,

Print settings were identical for prints made with Epson and MIS
inks.  I used 2880 (Photo RPM, HS un-checked) in both cases.  The
dmax difference is a real ink difference and not due to different
driver settings.

Carl

On Nov 29, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Jeff Magidson wrote:

> Carl and others;
>
> On the R2400 I believe that Photo RPM ( does anyone know what RPM in
> this case stands for ? ) prints at 5760 x 1440 dpi and PhotoBest  
> prints
> at 2880 x 1440.
>
> In my tests I have found only a very slight difference between the
> dither quality using the Photo RPM -vs-  PhotoBest settings. The
> difference is only visible with a loupe.
>
> Since the PhotoBest sitting is faster and uses less ink, I prefer it.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
>
>   Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:53:03 -0500
>     From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Subject: Re: MIS k4 black density
>
> Greg,
>
> Print settings were identical for prints made with Epson and MIS
> inks.  I used 2880 (Photo RPM, HS un-checked) in both cases.  The
> dmax difference is a real ink difference and not due to different
> driver settings.
>
> Carl

On Nov 29, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

> Hello Carl,
>
>> I will try the MIS MK (Eboni)  as well in the 2400.  I expect that
>> dmax will be less with Eboni on Epson VFA (1.77 with Epson MK) and
>> more on HPR (1.64 with Epson MK) based on your experience.
>
> Great.  I'm interested not only in dmax comparisons but also your
> opinion on general appearance compared to K3, and anything else you're
> aware of.  Many thanks.
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

>
> It's been so long since I printed on Kirkland that I have forgotten  
> which paper setting works the best in ABW. I think i use "prem semi  
> gloss" but is there a better choice?
> Thanks in advance! DOug M
>

> Behalf Of Carl Schofield
> Sent: 29 November 2005 20:26
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
> 
> Here are my results for printing with MIS MK (Eboni) and the 
> MIS k4 inks in the 2400.  I did some tests with Epson Velvet 
> Fine Art (VFA) and Hahnemuhle Photo  Rag Bright White (HPRB) 
> papers using the Epson  
> driver ABW mode and both Photo RPM and Best Photo print 
> resolutions.   
> VFA was used as the media setting for all tests and default 
> neutral settings were used for ABW mode.  Create-icc profiles 
> were made and used for print space in the color management, 
> print with preview option of CS2 for all paper/ink/resolution tests.
> 
> VFA:
> Epson MK k3 inks, Photo RPM, dmax 1.769
> MIS MK (Eboni) k4 inks, Photo RPM dmax 1.734 (Best Photo dmax 1.741)
> 
> HPRB:
> Epson MK k3 inks, Photo RPM, dmax 1.643
> MIS MK (Eboni) k4 inks, Photo RPM dmax 1.744 (Best Photo dmax 1.754)
> 
> Neutrality was very good with VFA using the MIS k4 inks and 
> the HPRB appeared to have a slight selenium tone (probably 
> because of the higher level of OBs in this paper).  Although 
> Eboni dmax was slightly lower on VFA, compared to the Epson 
> MK, it was higher than I was expecting.  Eboni dmax was much 
> higher on HPRB, compared to Epson MK.  I can see some 
> metamerism in the MIS k4 prints that I do not see with the 
> Epson k3 prints.  I don't find the level of metamerism to be 
> objectionable, but for those who are ultra sensitive to this 
> QTR might be a better printing option to avoid the metamerism.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Nov 29, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Clayton Jones wrote:
> 
> > Hello Carl,
> >
> >> I will try the MIS MK (Eboni)  as well in the 2400.  I expect that 
> >> dmax will be less with Eboni on Epson VFA (1.77 with Epson MK) and 
> >> more on HPR (1.64 with Epson MK) based on your experience.
> >
> > Great.  I'm interested not only in dmax comparisons but also your 
> > opinion on general appearance compared to K3, and anything 
> else you're 
> > aware of.  Many thanks.

On Nov 30, 2005, at 3:41 AM, Tony Riley wrote:

> Can I ask what method you are using to measure these black density  
> levels?
>
> TonyR
>
>
>> Behalf Of Carl Schofield
>> Sent: 29 November 2005 20:26
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS k4 black density
>>
>> Here are my results for printing with MIS MK (Eboni) and the
>> MIS k4 inks in the 2400.  I did some tests with Epson Velvet
>> Fine Art (VFA) and Hahnemuhle Photo  Rag Bright White (HPRB)
>> papers using the Epson
>> driver ABW mode and both Photo RPM and Best Photo print
>> resolutions.
>> VFA was used as the media setting for all tests and default
>> neutral settings were used for ABW mode.  Create-icc profiles
>> were made and used for print space in the color management,
>> print with preview option of CS2 for all paper/ink/resolution tests.
>>
>> VFA:
>> Epson MK k3 inks, Photo RPM, dmax 1.769
>> MIS MK (Eboni) k4 inks, Photo RPM dmax 1.734 (Best Photo dmax 1.741)
>>
>> HPRB:
>> Epson MK k3 inks, Photo RPM, dmax 1.643
>> MIS MK (Eboni) k4 inks, Photo RPM dmax 1.744 (Best Photo dmax 1.754)
>>
>> Neutrality was very good with VFA using the MIS k4 inks and
>> the HPRB appeared to have a slight selenium tone (probably
>> because of the higher level of OBs in this paper).  Although
>> Eboni dmax was slightly lower on VFA, compared to the Epson
>> MK, it was higher than I was expecting.  Eboni dmax was much
>> higher on HPRB, compared to Epson MK.  I can see some
>> metamerism in the MIS k4 prints that I do not see with the
>> Epson k3 prints.  I don't find the level of metamerism to be
>> objectionable, but for those who are ultra sensitive to this
>> QTR might be a better printing option to avoid the metamerism.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> On Nov 29, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Clayton Jones wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Carl,
>>>
>>>> I will try the MIS MK (Eboni)  as well in the 2400.  I expect that
>>>> dmax will be less with Eboni on Epson VFA (1.77 with Epson MK) and
>>>> more on HPR (1.64 with Epson MK) based on your experience.
>>>
>>> Great.  I'm interested not only in dmax comparisons but also your
>>> opinion on general appearance compared to K3, and anything
>> else you're
>>> aware of.  Many thanks.