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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2001-09-13 by Adrian Joyner

Quentin

I agree. I've got a demo copy of Imageprint on which Piezo is based. I don't know whether Jon Cone will have enhanced this for Piezo2 but there is certainly, IMHO, no quantum leap in quality with the base product. Printing the Proof of Piezography test image does show a smooth tonal ramp but then so does Piezo. The dither pattern looks as good as each other. Surprisingly the 100% black on EAM using Piezo measures 1.63 on my densitometer compared to 1.58 on ImagePrint. There is increased separation on the blacks with ImagePrint thereafter with 90% reading 1.40 on Piezo and 1.32 on ImagePrint. I always seem to be in a bit of a minority as I like the existing shadow separation in Piezo and never felt that it needed expanding.

Strangely the Imageprint vertical resolution test lines show a strange horizontal banding but otherwise are comparable.

Of course the ImagePrint evaluation software prints DEMO all over the image so it is difficult to make a comparision on an actual image. There doesn't seem to be an EAM profile so both were printed with the Cone Matte profile.

If you want a copy of the print let me know

Adrian Joyner
Clevedon
United Kingdom
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: qdfb 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:38 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


  Julian,

  My last message got lost in cyberspace...This duplicates it...

  Nij of Mwords kindly showed me a print made on a 7000 using the new 
  Piezo2 RIP this morning, and let's just say that so far as I am 
  concerned, the jury is out at the moment on whether Piezo2 print 
  quality matches Pro24 / PiezoB&W.  This is (if you'll excuse the pun) 
  still a grey area...

  Print quality is what ultimately matters most to me, and I would want 
  to see more examples before moving to the new RIP.

  As to more general comparisons with Imageprint 4, it is pretty 
  obvious looking at the interface that Piezo2 is based on Imageprint 
  4.  For more general info, all you can do at the moment is check out 
  the Piezo2 details at  
  http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
  and the pages linked from there, or you could try emailing Jon (good 
  luck!)
  --
  Quentin




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2001-09-14 by Adrian Joyner

Mike

Were you using Piezo or FS inks. What paper and profile.  I just tried it again and got the same results as before so I must be doing something different to you.

BTW how did the mono print that you made with the Epson color inks last?

Adrian
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 6:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


  Adrian,

  That is very strange as a densitometric comparison that I did of the same file in IP4 and Piezo indicated that the IP4 blacks were siginificantly more dense. Something approaching 2.0 as compared to 1.69. Maybe I will repeat the tests this weekend.

  -MIke
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Adrian Joyner 
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:26 PM
    Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


    Quentin

    I agree. I've got a demo copy of Imageprint on which Piezo is based. I don't know whether Jon Cone will have enhanced this for Piezo2 but there is certainly, IMHO, no quantum leap in quality with the base product. Printing the Proof of Piezography test image does show a smooth tonal ramp but then so does Piezo. The dither pattern looks as good as each other. Surprisingly the 100% black on EAM using Piezo measures 1.63 on my densitometer compared to 1.58 on ImagePrint. There is increased separation on the blacks with ImagePrint thereafter with 90% reading 1.40 on Piezo and 1.32 on ImagePrint. I always seem to be in a bit of a minority as I like the existing shadow separation in Piezo and never felt that it needed expanding.

    Strangely the Imageprint vertical resolution test lines show a strange horizontal banding but otherwise are comparable.

    Of course the ImagePrint evaluation software prints DEMO all over the image so it is difficult to make a comparision on an actual image. There doesn't seem to be an EAM profile so both were printed with the Cone Matte profile.

    If you want a copy of the print let me know

    Adrian Joyner
    Clevedon
    United Kingdom
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: qdfb 
      To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
      Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:38 PM
      Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


      Julian,

      My last message got lost in cyberspace...This duplicates it...

      Nij of Mwords kindly showed me a print made on a 7000 using the new 
      Piezo2 RIP this morning, and let's just say that so far as I am 
      concerned, the jury is out at the moment on whether Piezo2 print 
      quality matches Pro24 / PiezoB&W.  This is (if you'll excuse the pun) 
      still a grey area...

      Print quality is what ultimately matters most to me, and I would want 
      to see more examples before moving to the new RIP.

      As to more general comparisons with Imageprint 4, it is pretty 
      obvious looking at the interface that Piezo2 is based on Imageprint 
      4.  For more general info, all you can do at the moment is check out 
      the Piezo2 details at  
      http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
      and the pages linked from there, or you could try emailing Jon (good 
      luck!)
      --
      Quentin




    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2001-09-16 by Adrian Joyner

Mike

Thank you for some most sobering thoughts.  Of course you are right. Why should I care whether Imageprint has better blacks than Piezo. The quality of my photography has nothing at all to do with my choice of inkset or RIP but everything to do with my vision. 

I should ( and will) be spending much more time taking pictures  and stop thinking about my printer, scanner and inks.

Piezo has given me  such a wonderful standard of output that I kid myself that it is the limiting factor in my images.

It is the danger ( and,for some, perhaps the delight) of the lightroom that we get more obsessed by the process than the image.

Adrian Joyner
Clevedon
United Kingdom
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 6:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


  Adrian,

  I have been buy at FotoFusion the past few days. We had a end of fusion beach party last night and it was a great time.

  To answer your questions. 

  I am printing on the 7000 with the MIS FS inks. I am using the Lyson profiles ie; "Lyson_310gsm_standardFA". This profile is German Etching/Orwell. I find that these profiles work better for me than the Cone profiles in ImagePrint 4.

  However, the blacks I am getting are being tested and compared on the Hahnemuhle Torchon 285 utilizing the "Lyson_285gsm_soft-fine-art. As you know Torchon produces one of the best blacks to begin with. I displayed prints at FotoFusion and the attendees were all very impressed with the blacks that I have obtained with ImagePrint 4.  

  It is important to remember that there are just so many variables. Double Density Black vs. Standard Balck, humidity, temperature, etc.

  I did learn one very important thing this week....and that is as photgraphers, we are spending much to much time experimenting with inks and not enough time photographing. I attended a lecture by Michael Kenna and was once again in awe by this man's work. And beyond that, he is an intelligent, friendly and lovely person to speak with. I was so engaged by his work that I purchsed his image "A pair of trees, Dearborn, Michigan". It is a gelatin silver print sepia tones. It has this incredible pinkish/brown/sepia look that is mezmerizing.

  I also spent a bit of time with Dr. Richard Zakia of RIT fame and he made one of the funniest statements I had heard. In a panel discussion with Gordon Brown, Vincent Versce, Jill Enfield he responded to the mediator by saying "If silver printing is gourmet food, then I guess digital printing is fast food". The audience broke out laughing and coming from a well know educator, it was just out of context and very entertaining.

  The varied samples of work that I saw were amazing. Work from Arnold Newman portraits to Michael Kenna urban landscapes. Afer 4 days, lectures, workshops, parties, and a lot of drinking I came away reinvigorated to create art.

  Mike





  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Adrian Joyner 
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:35 AM
    Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


    Mike

    Were you using Piezo or FS inks. What paper and profile.  I just tried it again and got the same results as before so I must be doing something different to you.

    BTW how did the mono print that you made with the Epson color inks last?profiles
    310
    Adrian

    ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Michael Kravit 
      To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
      Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 6:13 AM
      Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


      Adrian,

      That is very strange as a densitometric comparison that I did of the same file in IP4 and Piezo indicated that the IP4 blacks were siginificantly more dense. Something approaching 2.0 as compared to 1.69. Maybe I will repeat the tests this weekend.

      -MIke
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Adrian Joyner 
        To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
        Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:26 PM
        Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


        Quentin

        I agree. I've got a demo copy of Imageprint on which Piezo is based. I don't know whether Jon Cone will have enhanced this for Piezo2 but there is certainly, IMHO, no quantum leap in quality with the base product. Printing the Proof of Piezography test image does show a smooth tonal ramp but then so does Piezo. The dither pattern looks as good as each other. Surprisingly the 100% black on EAM using Piezo measures 1.63 on my densitometer compared to 1.58 on ImagePrint. There is increased separation on the blacks with ImagePrint thereafter with 90% reading 1.40 on Piezo and 1.32 on ImagePrint. I always seem to be in a bit of a minority as I like the existing shadow separation in Piezo and never felt that it needed expanding.

        Strangely the Imageprint vertical resolution test lines show a strange horizontal banding but otherwise are comparable.

        Of course the ImagePrint evaluation software prints DEMO all over the image so it is difficult to make a comparision on an actual image. There doesn't seem to be an EAM profile so both were printed with the Cone Matte profile.

        If you want a copy of the print let me know

        Adrian Joyner
        Clevedon
        United Kingdom
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: qdfb 
          To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
          Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:38 PM
          Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


          Julian,

          My last message got lost in cyberspace...This duplicates it...

          Nij of Mwords kindly showed me a print made on a 7000 using the new 
          Piezo2 RIP this morning, and let's just say that so far as I am 
          concerned, the jury is out at the moment on whether Piezo2 print 
          quality matches Pro24 / PiezoB&W.  This is (if you'll excuse the pun) 
          still a grey area...

          Print quality is what ultimately matters most to me, and I would want 
          to see more examples before moving to the new RIP.

          As to more general comparisons with Imageprint 4, it is pretty 
          obvious looking at the interface that Piezo2 is based on Imageprint 
          4.  For more general info, all you can do at the moment is check out 
          the Piezo2 details at  
          http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
          and the pages linked from there, or you could try emailing Jon (good 
          luck!)
          --
          Quentin




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Moreno Polloni

> At first look, it seems identical to the Imageprint software, same
> screens, same menus. Wonder what is going on behind the
> facade?

Their value-add will probably be in the form of some profiles for Cone
inksets and papers.

[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by tomoc

Doesn't the image print use a Dongle token? Any word on this using 
one?

It says software lisence for one printer...I assume that means one 
MODEL of printer...that if you had 6 1280s hooked up to your pc, one 
lisence would cover them, but if you had one 1270 and one 1280, it 
would be two fees???

Is anyone reading this to mean that quality BW and color prints will 
be manageable from OEM or other off-the-shelf inksets???

Pretty pheromonal if it works... All we need now is a 100 year dye 
inkset <g>

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Moreno Polloni" <mp@d...> 
wrote:
> > At first look, it seems identical to the Imageprint software, same
> > screens, same menus. Wonder what is going on behind the
> > facade?
> 
> Their value-add will probably be in the form of some profiles for 
Cone
> inksets and papers.

[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by butchhul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <tomoc@y...> 
wrote:
> Doesn't the image print use a Dongle token? Any word on this 
using 
> one?

Yep, says it requires a dedicated USB port to accomadate a 
dongle. Does say it containes a "propriatary microweave"

Butch

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Moreno Polloni

> Doesn't the image print use a Dongle token? Any word on this using
> one?

It uses a parallel port dongle, and they're coming out with a USB dongle
version for the Macs.

> It says software lisence for one printer...I assume that means one
> MODEL of printer...that if you had 6 1280s hooked up to your pc, one
> lisence would cover them, but if you had one 1270 and one 1280, it
> would be two fees???

I don't think you can assume that. They clearly state that additional
printers require additional licensing.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Julian Thomas

yeah. but WHAT??!!! What is different than the Imageprint? I'm not having a
go at anyone, but Image print has been available for a while, piezo
'announces' its version and suddenly it is flavour of the month!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "qdfb" <qdb@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:27 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


> Expect premium B&W performance.  I understand Cone has worked his
> magic on the B&W side in particular.
> -
> Quentin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "butchhul" <butchhul@a...>
> wrote:
> > At first look, it seems identical to the Imageprint software, same
> > screens, same menus. Wonder what is going on behind the
> > facade?
> >
> > By the way, Imageprint4 for the Mac is supposed to be released
> > this month, if it hasn't been already.
> >
> > Butch Hulett
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by qdfb

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> yeah. but WHAT??!!! What is different than the Imageprint? I'm not 
having a
> go at anyone, but Image print has been available for a while, piezo
> 'announces' its version and suddenly it is flavour of the month!
> 
> Julian

Julian,

All you can do, short of emailing Jon for a fuller answer, is check 
out the links from http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html

Nij was kind enough this morning to show me an image printed in B&W 
with the new Piezo2 RIP, and let's just say, based on the print 
quality of the example we looked at, the jury is still out on whether 
it matches current flavours of PiezoB&W.  It clearly has the 
advantage in terms of layout capability, but print quality remains a 
grey area (bad pun, sorry :-))
--
Quentin

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Derek Clarke

I doubt it.

They more likely mean one license one printer...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Friday 25 Jan 2002 7:19 am, tomoc wrote:
> It says software lisence for one printer...I assume that means one
> MODEL of printer...that if you had 6 1280s hooked up to your pc, one
> lisence would cover them, but if you had one 1270 and one 1280, it
> would be two fees???

[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by qdfb

Julian,

My last message got lost in cyberspace...This duplicates it...

Nij of Mwords kindly showed me a print made on a 7000 using the new 
Piezo2 RIP this morning, and let's just say that so far as I am 
concerned, the jury is out at the moment on whether Piezo2 print 
quality matches Pro24 / PiezoB&W.  This is (if you'll excuse the pun) 
still a grey area...

Print quality is what ultimately matters most to me, and I would want 
to see more examples before moving to the new RIP.

As to more general comparisons with Imageprint 4, it is pretty 
obvious looking at the interface that Piezo2 is based on Imageprint 
4.  For more general info, all you can do at the moment is check out 
the Piezo2 details at  
http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
and the pages linked from there, or you could try emailing Jon (good 
luck!)
--
Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> yeah. but WHAT??!!! What is different than the Imageprint? I'm not 
having a
> go at anyone, but Image print has been available for a while, piezo
> 'announces' its version and suddenly it is flavour of the month!
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "qdfb" <qdb@b...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:27 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?
> 
> 
> > Expect premium B&W performance.  I understand Cone has worked his
> > magic on the B&W side in particular.
> > -
> > Quentin
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "butchhul" 
<butchhul@a...>
> > wrote:
> > > At first look, it seems identical to the Imageprint software, 
same
> > > screens, same menus. Wonder what is going on behind the
> > > facade?
> > >
> > > By the way, Imageprint4 for the Mac is supposed to be released
> > > this month, if it hasn't been already.
> > >
> > > Butch Hulett
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >
> >
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Julian Thomas

Thanks for that. How about it Nij, what do your AB tests tell you ;-)

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "qdfb" <qdb@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:38 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


> Julian,
>
> My last message got lost in cyberspace...This duplicates it...
>
> Nij of Mwords kindly showed me a print made on a 7000 using the new
> Piezo2 RIP this morning, and let's just say that so far as I am
> concerned, the jury is out at the moment on whether Piezo2 print
> quality matches Pro24 / PiezoB&W.  This is (if you'll excuse the pun)
> still a grey area...
>
> Print quality is what ultimately matters most to me, and I would want
> to see more examples before moving to the new RIP.
>
> As to more general comparisons with Imageprint 4, it is pretty
> obvious looking at the interface that Piezo2 is based on Imageprint
> 4.  For more general info, all you can do at the moment is check out
> the Piezo2 details at
> http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
> and the pages linked from there, or you could try emailing Jon (good
> luck!)
> --
> Quentin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > yeah. but WHAT??!!! What is different than the Imageprint? I'm not
> having a
> > go at anyone, but Image print has been available for a while, piezo
> > 'announces' its version and suddenly it is flavour of the month!
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "qdfb" <qdb@b...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:27 AM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?
> >
> >
> > > Expect premium B&W performance.  I understand Cone has worked his
> > > magic on the B&W side in particular.
> > > -
> > > Quentin
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "butchhul"
> <butchhul@a...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > At first look, it seems identical to the Imageprint software,
> same
> > > > screens, same menus. Wonder what is going on behind the
> > > > facade?
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Imageprint4 for the Mac is supposed to be released
> > > > this month, if it hasn't been already.
> > > >
> > > > Butch Hulett
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
> or "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by tomoc

> 
> It uses a parallel port dongle, and they're coming out with a USB 
dongle
> version for the Macs.
> 


Wow... I can't imagine more than 10 people buying software that 
requires a dingle... This is like going back to the earliest versions 
of Lotus 1-2-3. Equally hard to see a parallel port version of 
anything selling well.

I guess Jon Cone has just licensed a version of Image Print...I only 
hope he didn't put a lot of development time and/or money into it 
because this sounds like a loser...and I think that even if the 
quality is significantly better. 

This is just not a concept that is going to be received well by many 
people (IMHO). I have been thinking about ditching my 1160s and 
upgrading to 1280s or 5000s, thinking this new software would be the 
impetus for me...now I'd better find another 1160<g>.

What a disappointment. I usually get incredibly excited about even 
fairly minor improvements in tools I use so much. Hard to understand 
how they could be this far off (at least from my point of 
view...maybe I'm isolated, but I suspect not.).

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Ron Landucci

Tom,

I don't understand.  My Monaco Profiler software requires a USB dongle, my
Trident software for my Howtek scanner requires a USB dongle, my Wasatch
SoftRIP requires a parallel dongle, and my Cone PiezoPro RIP requires a
dongle.  These are all state of the art programs and I don't understand the
analogy to Lotus 1-2-3.  I find it hard to imagine that me and only nine
other people are using software that requires a dongle.

In fact, I just upgraded my PiezoPro RIP to the 9000 version, and have been
making 30"x40" and 40"x50" prints for the last week.  If my dongle required
me to stand on my head and whistle Dixie, I'd do it - the prints are that
good.

What's the issue with having to deal with a dongle?  What don't I know?

Ron

  Wow... I can't imagine more than 10 people buying software that
  requires a dingle... This is like going back to the earliest versions
  of Lotus 1-2-3. Equally hard to see a parallel port version of
  anything selling well.

  I guess Jon Cone has just licensed a version of Image Print...I only
  hope he didn't put a lot of development time and/or money into it
  because this sounds like a loser...and I think that even if the
  quality is significantly better.
   ...

   Tom O'Connell

  TomOC@...
  www.thomasoconnell.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by qdfb

I agree.  Give me a dingle, a dongle or a dang! anyday in preference 
to the Windows XP system.  Got two of 'em already for Piezo Pro24 and 
MonacoPROOF

--
Q
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...> 
wrote:

> What's the issue with having to deal with a dongle?  What don't I 
know?
> 
> Ron
> 
]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Moreno Polloni

> Wow... I can't imagine more than 10 people buying software that
> requires a dingle... This is like going back to the earliest versions
> of Lotus 1-2-3. Equally hard to see a parallel port version of
> anything selling well.

You'd be surprised at how many RIPS and 3D imaging programs require dongles.
Quite a few of the higher end packages do. And most RIPS run off PC's, so
parallel port dongles are quite common.

> I guess Jon Cone has just licensed a version of Image Print...I only
> hope he didn't put a lot of development time and/or money into it
> because this sounds like a loser...and I think that even if the
> quality is significantly better.

I think it has the potential to sell quite well. Copy protection isn't the
issue for me, it's the licensing model. The software isn't inexpensive. If
they are marketing to the typical Piezo user, they'll have include licensing
for two printers in the box.

> This is just not a concept that is going to be received well by many
> people (IMHO). I have been thinking about ditching my 1160s and
> upgrading to 1280s or 5000s, thinking this new software would be the
> impetus for me...now I'd better find another 1160<g>.
>
> What a disappointment. I usually get incredibly excited about even
> fairly minor improvements in tools I use so much. Hard to understand
> how they could be this far off (at least from my point of
> view...maybe I'm isolated, but I suspect not.).

I think they missed the mark on pricing (for the desktop version). It's just
too expensive for the majority of users. If they were to drop the price by
half, they'd sell ten times as much of the software.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Julian Thomas

-----> I think they missed the mark on pricing (for the desktop version).
It's just
> too expensive for the majority of users. If they were to drop the price by
> half, they'd sell ten times as much of the software.
>
>
IJM have spent a lot of time and effort getting the piezo name as a premium
product - whether it is better than anything else can be argued but in a lot
of people's mind piezo is superior. Now I bet that if Image print were to be
say 75% cheaper than piezo and be exactly the same product (don't know if it
is) more folk would buy piezo believing in the magic.

Julian

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Moreno Polloni

> -----> I think they missed the mark on pricing (for the desktop version).
> It's just
> > too expensive for the majority of users. If they were to drop the price
by
> > half, they'd sell ten times as much of the software.
> >
> >
> IJM have spent a lot of time and effort getting the piezo name as a
premium
> product - whether it is better than anything else can be argued but in a
lot
> of people's mind piezo is superior. Now I bet that if Image print were to
be
> say 75% cheaper than piezo and be exactly the same product (don't know if
it
> is) more folk would buy piezo believing in the magic.


Since Cone is licensing the product from Imageprint, he is bound by their
pricing structure. If Imageprint were to drop their prices by 75%, then Cone
would have the opportunity to do the same.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Julian Thomas

I've not compared prices for the desktop, are they the same??

julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moreno Polloni" <mp@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


> > -----> I think they missed the mark on pricing (for the desktop
version).
> > It's just
> > > too expensive for the majority of users. If they were to drop the
price
> by
> > > half, they'd sell ten times as much of the software.
> > >
> > >
> > IJM have spent a lot of time and effort getting the piezo name as a
> premium
> > product - whether it is better than anything else can be argued but in a
> lot
> > of people's mind piezo is superior. Now I bet that if Image print were
to
> be
> > say 75% cheaper than piezo and be exactly the same product (don't know
if
> it
> > is) more folk would buy piezo believing in the magic.
>
>
> Since Cone is licensing the product from Imageprint, he is bound by their
> pricing structure. If Imageprint were to drop their prices by 75%, then
Cone
> would have the opportunity to do the same.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by tomoc

Ron-

I work on a laptop. I don't want hardware stuff to carry with me. The 
concept of using hardware security for software is simply a lame 
concept from where I sit. I can't imagine setting up dongles...even 
on desktops (unless it was a dedicated printing machine)...even 
there, you sound like you have every port on your desktop crammed 
with dongles... just not something I am willing to do.

The requirement of Lotus to put the Floppy in the drive when using 
the program was the biggest reason that Excel killed the product 
totally...likely to be the same with any other software product, I 
would think.

Just one man's opinion...

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...> 
wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> I don't understand.  My Monaco Profiler software requires a USB 
dongle, my
> Trident software for my Howtek scanner requires a USB dongle, my 
Wasatch
> SoftRIP requires a parallel dongle, and my Cone PiezoPro RIP 
requires a
> dongle.  These are all state of the art programs and I don't 
understand the
> analogy to Lotus 1-2-3.  I find it hard to imagine that me and only 
nine
> other people are using software that requires a dongle.
> 
> In fact, I just upgraded my PiezoPro RIP to the 9000 version, and 
have been
> making 30"x40" and 40"x50" prints for the last week.  If my dongle 
required
> me to stand on my head and whistle Dixie, I'd do it - the prints 
are that
> good.
> 
> What's the issue with having to deal with a dongle?  What don't I 
know?
> 
> Ron
> 
>   Wow... I can't imagine more than 10 people buying software that
>   requires a dingle... This is like going back to the earliest 
versions
>   of Lotus 1-2-3. Equally hard to see a parallel port version of
>   anything selling well.
> 
>   I guess Jon Cone has just licensed a version of Image Print...I 
only
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>   hope he didn't put a lot of development time and/or money into it
>   because this sounds like a loser...and I think that even if the
>   quality is significantly better.
>    ...
> 
>    Tom O'Connell
> 
>   TomOC@y...
>   www.thomasoconnell.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by tomoc

Moreno-

Maybe I'm all wet about the dongle, but I don't see any 
software "going large" that requires one.

As to the pricing. There is no question that even PiezoBW is 
expensive...when it was introduced it was REVOLUTIONARY...and still 
is, to some extent. As/if there is comptetition and greater unit 
sales for Piezo the market will bring the price down.

As I think about the pricing, it is the concept of pricing per 
PRINTER rather than CPU that is unique. I gues they will just have to 
see if this works... All the printer manufacturers (and until MIS 
cloned the Piezo ink) practically give away the printer, DO give away 
the software so they can sell us ink and paper. 

In my case, I bought Cone ink for only a couple of months and had 
clogging issues that drove me nuts, so I tried other solutions and 
one was to use different ink. I still buy a lot of my paper from him, 
but not the ink, so I am presently not as profitable for him as I 
might have been... but a lot of people use the inks (I used carts) 
with no problem and I believe that business has grown nicely for him.

I woould be willing to continue to pay premium prices for upgrades 
(there was no mention in the release of a price for BW 6.0 upgrade 
prices). It sounds like he may have started hitting the resistance 
level if other users react to the price as you do...that will also 
trickle down to decreased sales of inks and paper????

We'll see...

Tom O'Connell



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Moreno Polloni" <mp@d...> 
wrote:
> > Wow... I can't imagine more than 10 people buying software that
> > requires a dingle... This is like going back to the earliest 
versions
> > of Lotus 1-2-3. Equally hard to see a parallel port version of
> > anything selling well.
> 
> You'd be surprised at how many RIPS and 3D imaging programs require 
dongles.
> Quite a few of the higher end packages do. And most RIPS run off 
PC's, so
> parallel port dongles are quite common.
> 
> > I guess Jon Cone has just licensed a version of Image Print...I 
only
> > hope he didn't put a lot of development time and/or money into it
> > because this sounds like a loser...and I think that even if the
> > quality is significantly better.
> 
> I think it has the potential to sell quite well. Copy protection 
isn't the
> issue for me, it's the licensing model. The software isn't 
inexpensive. If
> they are marketing to the typical Piezo user, they'll have include 
licensing
> for two printers in the box.
> 
> > This is just not a concept that is going to be received well by 
many
> > people (IMHO). I have been thinking about ditching my 1160s and
> > upgrading to 1280s or 5000s, thinking this new software would be 
the
> > impetus for me...now I'd better find another 1160<g>.
> >
> > What a disappointment. I usually get incredibly excited about even
> > fairly minor improvements in tools I use so much. Hard to 
understand
> > how they could be this far off (at least from my point of
> > view...maybe I'm isolated, but I suspect not.).
> 
> I think they missed the mark on pricing (for the desktop version). 
It's just
> too expensive for the majority of users. If they were to drop the 
price by
> half, they'd sell ten times as much of the software.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Todd Flashner

Perhaps in light of the fact that many BW printers have learned that the
Piezo driver offers little distinct advantage (other than paper profiles)
over the free Epson driver, and his inks offer little advantage over the
vastly less expensive MIS inks, Cone has decided to move on to the next
thing.

Jon was never the one to stay up at night writing code, or donning the lab
coat and formulating inks, he'd contract that.

He's also now selling Generations inks, in addition to color piezo. So it
seems he's becoming more of a reseller. He can tag his name onto something
and give it a quality endorsement, and perhaps leave the nagging product
support to the manufacturer, and simplify his life.

Who knows...

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Quentin
> 
> I agree. I've got a demo copy of Imageprint on which Piezo is based. I don't
> know whether Jon Cone will have enhanced this for Piezo2 but there is
> certainly, IMHO, no quantum leap in quality with the base product. Printing
> the Proof of Piezography test image does show a smooth tonal ramp but then so
> does Piezo. The dither pattern looks as good as each other. Surprisingly the
> 100% black on EAM using Piezo measures 1.63 on my densitometer compared to
> 1.58 on ImagePrint. There is increased separation on the blacks with
> ImagePrint thereafter with 90% reading 1.40 on Piezo and 1.32 on ImagePrint. I
> always seem to be in a bit of a minority as I like the existing shadow
> separation in Piezo and never felt that it needed expanding.
> 
> Strangely the Imageprint vertical resolution test lines show a strange
> horizontal banding but otherwise are comparable.
> 
> Of course the ImagePrint evaluation software prints DEMO all over the image so
> it is difficult to make a comparision on an actual image. There doesn't seem
> to be an EAM profile so both were printed with the Cone Matte profile.
> 
> If you want a copy of the print let me know
> 
> Adrian Joyner
> Clevedon
> United Kingdom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: qdfb 
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:38 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?
> 
> 
> Julian,
> 
> My last message got lost in cyberspace...This duplicates it...
> 
> Nij of Mwords kindly showed me a print made on a 7000 using the new
> Piezo2 RIP this morning, and let's just say that so far as I am
> concerned, the jury is out at the moment on whether Piezo2 print
> quality matches Pro24 / PiezoB&W.  This is (if you'll excuse the pun)
> still a grey area...
> 
> Print quality is what ultimately matters most to me, and I would want
> to see more examples before moving to the new RIP.
> 
> As to more general comparisons with Imageprint 4, it is pretty
> obvious looking at the interface that Piezo2 is based on Imageprint
> 4.  For more general info, all you can do at the moment is check out
> the Piezo2 details at
> http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
> and the pages linked from there, or you could try emailing Jon (good
> luck!)
> --
> Quentin
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by Moreno Polloni

> Maybe I'm all wet about the dongle, but I don't see any
> software "going large" that requires one.

The use of dongles, with (expensive) specialty software is not uncommon. I
don't really like them myself, but I understand that software manufacturers
need to protect their revenues.

> As to the pricing. There is no question that even PiezoBW is
> expensive...when it was introduced it was REVOLUTIONARY...and still
> is, to some extent. As/if there is comptetition and greater unit
> sales for Piezo the market will bring the price down.
>
> As I think about the pricing, it is the concept of pricing per
> PRINTER rather than CPU that is unique. I gues they will just have to
> see if this works... All the printer manufacturers (and until MIS
> cloned the Piezo ink) practically give away the printer, DO give away
> the software so they can sell us ink and paper.

This pricing model suits the print industry where most RIP purchasers have
multiple users, and a smaller number of large format printers. You may be
dealing with a $2000 software package for a $10,000 printer.

By releasing a scaled down version of the RIP (no tiling features, etc.)
that is limited to desktop-type printers, Imageprint is going after a
completely different market. I'd imagine here the typical setup would be one
person with two printers. The cost of the software alone will probably cost
more than both desktop printers combined. I think the current pricing model
is going to deter a large portion of it's potential market share. Hopefully
the product will succeed as I think it's something that's really needed.

[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-25 by qdfb

Odd.  This was the message that went missing in cyberspace, and now 
it turns up, after the replacement message that I sent.  What 
cooks?  ...or have I lost the balance of my mind :-)


> Julian,
> 
> All you can do, short of emailing Jon for a fuller answer, is check 
> out the links from http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
> 
> Nij was kind enough this morning to show me an image printed in B&W 
> with the new Piezo2 RIP, and let's just say, based on the print 
> quality of the example we looked at, the jury is still out on 
whether 
> it matches current flavours of PiezoB&W.  It clearly has the 
> advantage in terms of layout capability, but print quality remains 
a
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> grey area (bad pun, sorry :-))
> --
> Quentin

missing and delayed messages

2002-01-25 by antonisphoto

All,

please remember that Yahoo slows down from time to time and things appear 
lost in cyberspace when in fact they are hiding in Yahoo servers. We are not 
paying a red cent to Yahoo, so can't quite complain (and even if we wanted to 
complain I don't know if there is a humanoid anywhere close to this sytem). 

I just wanted to reassure you that  the slowdown isn't because any moderator 
is screening messages on this list! 

It's just life in this virtual cafeteria.....

Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "qdfb" <qdb@b...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Odd.  This was the message that went missing in cyberspace, and now 
> it turns up, after the replacement message that I sent.  What 
> cooks?  ...or have I lost the balance of my mind :-)

> > Quentin

Re: missing and delayed messages

2002-01-25 by frankg_photo

> It's just life in this virtual cafeteria.....
> 
> Antonis
> 
> 
Thanks for the reminder Antonis.
I unfortunately posted several times today thinking I'd done 
something wrong or not signed in or wasn't paying attention or 
whatever.
Then I realised what you've just confirmed
frankg

test

2002-01-25 by Pablo Kolodny

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-26 by Michael Kravit

Adrian,

That is very strange as a densitometric comparison that I did of the same file in IP4 and Piezo indicated that the IP4 blacks were siginificantly more dense. Something approaching 2.0 as compared to 1.69. Maybe I will repeat the tests this weekend.

-MIke
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Adrian Joyner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


  Quentin

  I agree. I've got a demo copy of Imageprint on which Piezo is based. I don't know whether Jon Cone will have enhanced this for Piezo2 but there is certainly, IMHO, no quantum leap in quality with the base product. Printing the Proof of Piezography test image does show a smooth tonal ramp but then so does Piezo. The dither pattern looks as good as each other. Surprisingly the 100% black on EAM using Piezo measures 1.63 on my densitometer compared to 1.58 on ImagePrint. There is increased separation on the blacks with ImagePrint thereafter with 90% reading 1.40 on Piezo and 1.32 on ImagePrint. I always seem to be in a bit of a minority as I like the existing shadow separation in Piezo and never felt that it needed expanding.

  Strangely the Imageprint vertical resolution test lines show a strange horizontal banding but otherwise are comparable.

  Of course the ImagePrint evaluation software prints DEMO all over the image so it is difficult to make a comparision on an actual image. There doesn't seem to be an EAM profile so both were printed with the Cone Matte profile.

  If you want a copy of the print let me know

  Adrian Joyner
  Clevedon
  United Kingdom
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: qdfb 
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:38 PM
    Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


    Julian,

    My last message got lost in cyberspace...This duplicates it...

    Nij of Mwords kindly showed me a print made on a 7000 using the new 
    Piezo2 RIP this morning, and let's just say that so far as I am 
    concerned, the jury is out at the moment on whether Piezo2 print 
    quality matches Pro24 / PiezoB&W.  This is (if you'll excuse the pun) 
    still a grey area...

    Print quality is what ultimately matters most to me, and I would want 
    to see more examples before moving to the new RIP.

    As to more general comparisons with Imageprint 4, it is pretty 
    obvious looking at the interface that Piezo2 is based on Imageprint 
    4.  For more general info, all you can do at the moment is check out 
    the Piezo2 details at  
    http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
    and the pages linked from there, or you could try emailing Jon (good 
    luck!)
    --
    Quentin




  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-27 by Michael Kravit

Adrian,

I have been buy at FotoFusion the past few days. We had a end of fusion beach party last night and it was a great time.

To answer your questions. 

I am printing on the 7000 with the MIS FS inks. I am using the Lyson profiles ie; "Lyson_310gsm_standardFA". This profile is German Etching/Orwell. I find that these profiles work better for me than the Cone profiles in ImagePrint 4.

However, the blacks I am getting are being tested and compared on the Hahnemuhle Torchon 285 utilizing the "Lyson_285gsm_soft-fine-art. As you know Torchon produces one of the best blacks to begin with. I displayed prints at FotoFusion and the attendees were all very impressed with the blacks that I have obtained with ImagePrint 4.  

It is important to remember that there are just so many variables. Double Density Black vs. Standard Balck, humidity, temperature, etc.

I did learn one very important thing this week....and that is as photgraphers, we are spending much to much time experimenting with inks and not enough time photographing. I attended a lecture by Michael Kenna and was once again in awe by this man's work. And beyond that, he is an intelligent, friendly and lovely person to speak with. I was so engaged by his work that I purchsed his image "A pair of trees, Dearborn, Michigan". It is a gelatin silver print sepia tones. It has this incredible pinkish/brown/sepia look that is mezmerizing.

I also spent a bit of time with Dr. Richard Zakia of RIT fame and he made one of the funniest statements I had heard. In a panel discussion with Gordon Brown, Vincent Versce, Jill Enfield he responded to the mediator by saying "If silver printing is gourmet food, then I guess digital printing is fast food". The audience broke out laughing and coming from a well know educator, it was just out of context and very entertaining.

The varied samples of work that I saw were amazing. Work from Arnold Newman portraits to Michael Kenna urban landscapes. Afer 4 days, lectures, workshops, parties, and a lot of drinking I came away reinvigorated to create art.

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Adrian Joyner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


  Mike

  Were you using Piezo or FS inks. What paper and profile.  I just tried it again and got the same results as before so I must be doing something different to you.

  BTW how did the mono print that you made with the Epson color inks last?profiles
  310
  Adrian

  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Michael Kravit 
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 6:13 AM
    Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


    Adrian,

    That is very strange as a densitometric comparison that I did of the same file in IP4 and Piezo indicated that the IP4 blacks were siginificantly more dense. Something approaching 2.0 as compared to 1.69. Maybe I will repeat the tests this weekend.

    -MIke
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Adrian Joyner 
      To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
      Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


      Quentin

      I agree. I've got a demo copy of Imageprint on which Piezo is based. I don't know whether Jon Cone will have enhanced this for Piezo2 but there is certainly, IMHO, no quantum leap in quality with the base product. Printing the Proof of Piezography test image does show a smooth tonal ramp but then so does Piezo. The dither pattern looks as good as each other. Surprisingly the 100% black on EAM using Piezo measures 1.63 on my densitometer compared to 1.58 on ImagePrint. There is increased separation on the blacks with ImagePrint thereafter with 90% reading 1.40 on Piezo and 1.32 on ImagePrint. I always seem to be in a bit of a minority as I like the existing shadow separation in Piezo and never felt that it needed expanding.

      Strangely the Imageprint vertical resolution test lines show a strange horizontal banding but otherwise are comparable.

      Of course the ImagePrint evaluation software prints DEMO all over the image so it is difficult to make a comparision on an actual image. There doesn't seem to be an EAM profile so both were printed with the Cone Matte profile.

      If you want a copy of the print let me know

      Adrian Joyner
      Clevedon
      United Kingdom
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: qdfb 
        To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
        Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:38 PM
        Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


        Julian,

        My last message got lost in cyberspace...This duplicates it...

        Nij of Mwords kindly showed me a print made on a 7000 using the new 
        Piezo2 RIP this morning, and let's just say that so far as I am 
        concerned, the jury is out at the moment on whether Piezo2 print 
        quality matches Pro24 / PiezoB&W.  This is (if you'll excuse the pun) 
        still a grey area...

        Print quality is what ultimately matters most to me, and I would want 
        to see more examples before moving to the new RIP.

        As to more general comparisons with Imageprint 4, it is pretty 
        obvious looking at the interface that Piezo2 is based on Imageprint 
        4.  For more general info, all you can do at the moment is check out 
        the Piezo2 details at  
        http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
        and the pages linked from there, or you could try emailing Jon (good 
        luck!)
        --
        Quentin




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[Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-27 by antonisphoto

Mike,

while you were "away", I posted a report on ImagePrint in message 8371. Any 
further comments?

Are the Lyson profiles you mention for RGB or grayscale files (on their way to 
hex-black)? I assume these are provided by Colorbyte as part of IP4.

And, of course, you make a very good point. If you follow these lists you'd 
think nobody ever has time to take a single picture. We all seem buried in the 
minutiae of tech talk. But photography - wet or otherwise - has always been 
the point where art meets esoteric tech tips and tricks. With a particularly fast 
moving target like digital, we can barely afford to peacefully set-it-and-forget-it. 

But I, for one, have enjoyed some of that peace for a year now of "straight" 
piezo on 1160. Costly, imperfect (in its end-user controls), not without 
problems, but, man, so rewarding in the prints I have made.  Of course, one 
has to forget the subtleties available in such silver prints as Michael Kenna's. 
It may be a while before we get there digitally. And, yes, I have seen his prints 
up close and had the same reaction as you.

Antonis





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
 
> I did learn one very important thing this week....and that is as photgraphers, 
we are spending much to much time experimenting with inks and not enough 
time photographing. I attended a lecture by Michael Kenna and was once 
again in awe by this man's work.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-28 by Michael Kravit

Antonis,
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ---- Original Message ----- 
  From: antonisphoto 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 12:31 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


  Mike,

  while you were "away", I posted a report on ImagePrint in message 8371. Any 
  further comments?

  <Response> Yes, I read it and think you did an excellent job. I find the tones a bit smoother and the blacks more dense. The dither pattern is a bit different, but visually (w/o a loupe) one can not see the dither.

  Are the Lyson profiles you mention for RGB or grayscale files (on their way to 
  hex-black)? I assume these are provided by Colorbyte as part of IP4.

  <Response> Interesting question. I used them for grayscale quads and they work beautifully.

  And, of course, you make a very good point. If you follow these lists you'd 
  think nobody ever has time to take a single picture. We all seem buried in the 
  minutiae of tech talk. But photography - wet or otherwise - has always been 
  the point where art meets esoteric tech tips and tricks. With a particularly fast 
  moving target like digital, we can barely afford to peacefully set-it-and-forget-it. 

  But I, for one, have enjoyed some of that peace for a year now of "straight" 
  piezo on 1160. Costly, imperfect (in its end-user controls), not without 
  problems, but, man, so rewarding in the prints I have made.  Of course, one 
  has to forget the subtleties available in such silver prints as Michael Kenna's. 
  It may be a while before we get there digitally. And, yes, I have seen his prints 
  up close and had the same reaction as you.

  <Response> I prints are amazing. I even briefly conmsidered building my darkroom again.....ever so briefly, and them remembered that my idea of fun is not spending the whole day in the dark.

  Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?

2002-01-28 by Michael Kravit

Adrian,

I must tell you this,

As part of FotoFusion we auctioned off 50 beautiful prints. The proceeds of these prints are to be used to provide funding to out "At-Risk" childrens programs. We offer after school photo programs to abused inner city children. The prints were all donated and ranged from Silver to Ciba Chrome, to Platinum, to digital color and B/W. The prints of Ruth Bernhard, Arnold Newman, Michael Kenna, and the like drew significant amounts of money from collectors. Color digital did not fare well. Prints went for $100-200US. However the b/w pigment digitals on fine watercolor art papers sold for $250 to $2000. 

Daile Kaplan of Swan Galleries did the auctioning. I had two 16x20 prints, one sold for $375 and I believe the other one was a bit higher. My point is that the perception seems to be that b/w pigmented carbon prints are being accepted as archival and are gaining in value. I believe it is only a matter of time until things take off. Tom Lopez told me that he has his "dfigital" b/w prints now in collections of over 25 museums. He getting requests for exhibitions of his 44"x44" "Face of Aids" series. These are printed on Hawk Mountain Condor with MIS double density black ink only on an Epson 10000. I saw one up close and it is lovely. He shot 6x6 Kodak HIE.

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Adrian Joyner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 6:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


  Mike

  Thank you for some most sobering thoughts.  Of course you are right. Why should I care whether Imageprint has better blacks than Piezo. The quality of my photography has nothing at all to do with my choice of inkset or RIP but everything to do with my vision. 

  I should ( and will) be spending much more time taking pictures  and stop thinking about my printer, scanner and inks.

  Piezo has given me  such a wonderful standard of output that I kid myself that it is the limiting factor in my images.

  It is the danger ( and,for some, perhaps the delight) of the lightroom that we get more obsessed by the process than the image.

  Adrian Joyner
  Clevedon
  United Kingdom





  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Michael Kravit 
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 6:34 PM
    Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


    Adrian,

    I have been buy at FotoFusion the past few days. We had a end of fusion beach party last night and it was a great time.

    To answer your questions. 

    I am printing on the 7000 with the MIS FS inks. I am using the Lyson profiles ie; "Lyson_310gsm_standardFA". This profile is German Etching/Orwell. I find that these profiles work better for me than the Cone profiles in ImagePrint 4.

    However, the blacks I am getting are being tested and compared on the Hahnemuhle Torchon 285 utilizing the "Lyson_285gsm_soft-fine-art. As you know Torchon produces one of the best blacks to begin with. I displayed prints at FotoFusion and the attendees were all very impressed with the blacks that I have obtained with ImagePrint 4.  

    It is important to remember that there are just so many variables. Double Density Black vs. Standard Balck, humidity, temperature, etc.

    I did learn one very important thing this week....and that is as photgraphers, we are spending much to much time experimenting with inks and not enough time photographing. I attended a lecture by Michael Kenna and was once again in awe by this man's work. And beyond that, he is an intelligent, friendly and lovely person to speak with. I was so engaged by his work that I purchsed his image "A pair of trees, Dearborn, Michigan". It is a gelatin silver print sepia tones. It has this incredible pinkish/brown/sepia look that is mezmerizing.

    I also spent a bit of time with Dr. Richard Zakia of RIT fame and he made one of the funniest statements I had heard. In a panel discussion with Gordon Brown, Vincent Versce, Jill Enfield he responded to the mediator by saying "If silver printing is gourmet food, then I guess digital printing is fast food". The audience broke out laughing and coming from a well know educator, it was just out of context and very entertaining.

    The varied samples of work that I saw were amazing. Work from Arnold Newman portraits to Michael Kenna urban landscapes. Afer 4 days, lectures, workshops, parties, and a lot of drinking I came away reinvigorated to create art.

    Mike





    ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Adrian Joyner 
      To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
      Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:35 AM
      Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


      Mike

      Were you using Piezo or FS inks. What paper and profile.  I just tried it again and got the same results as before so I must be doing something different to you.

      BTW how did the mono print that you made with the Epson color inks last?profiles
      310
      Adrian

      ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Michael Kravit 
        To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
        Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 6:13 AM
        Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


        Adrian,

        That is very strange as a densitometric comparison that I did of the same file in IP4 and Piezo indicated that the IP4 blacks were siginificantly more dense. Something approaching 2.0 as compared to 1.69. Maybe I will repeat the tests this weekend.

        -MIke
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Adrian Joyner 
          To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
          Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:26 PM
          Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


          Quentin

          I agree. I've got a demo copy of Imageprint on which Piezo is based. I don't know whether Jon Cone will have enhanced this for Piezo2 but there is certainly, IMHO, no quantum leap in quality with the base product. Printing the Proof of Piezography test image does show a smooth tonal ramp but then so does Piezo. The dither pattern looks as good as each other. Surprisingly the 100% black on EAM using Piezo measures 1.63 on my densitometer compared to 1.58 on ImagePrint. There is increased separation on the blacks with ImagePrint thereafter with 90% reading 1.40 on Piezo and 1.32 on ImagePrint. I always seem to be in a bit of a minority as I like the existing shadow separation in Piezo and never felt that it needed expanding.

          Strangely the Imageprint vertical resolution test lines show a strange horizontal banding but otherwise are comparable.

          Of course the ImagePrint evaluation software prints DEMO all over the image so it is difficult to make a comparision on an actual image. There doesn't seem to be an EAM profile so both were printed with the Cone Matte profile.

          If you want a copy of the print let me know

          Adrian Joyner
          Clevedon
          United Kingdom
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: qdfb 
            To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
            Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:38 PM
            Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo2 vs ImagePrint RIPS? Mike K.?


            Julian,

            My last message got lost in cyberspace...This duplicates it...

            Nij of Mwords kindly showed me a print made on a 7000 using the new 
            Piezo2 RIP this morning, and let's just say that so far as I am 
            concerned, the jury is out at the moment on whether Piezo2 print 
            quality matches Pro24 / PiezoB&W.  This is (if you'll excuse the pun) 
            still a grey area...

            Print quality is what ultimately matters most to me, and I would want 
            to see more examples before moving to the new RIP.

            As to more general comparisons with Imageprint 4, it is pretty 
            obvious looking at the interface that Piezo2 is based on Imageprint 
            4.  For more general info, all you can do at the moment is check out 
            the Piezo2 details at  
            http://www.piezography.com/piezography2.html
            and the pages linked from there, or you could try emailing Jon (good 
            luck!)
            --
            Quentin




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