Digital BW, The Print

Hi Frank,

>I just purchased an R1800 and a set of three MIS inks for it...

Read my write-up on this approach at
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.htm 


>I bought a pack of trial papers suggested by Paul Roark ...

Go by my web page, above, to see what I recommend.  MIS puts together some
collections of papers that are not necessarily what I recommend for the
R1800 3-MK approach.  (I'm not MIS.)  Try, for example, Epson Premier Art
(205 gsm) "Scrapbook" paper for a start.  It's cheap and readily available
through outfits like www.Alex.com .

>... why is there an ink for the GO spot on the ink carrier. 

I use that spot (as well as the PK and MK spots) of an Eboni cart so that I
do not have to use a color ink spot.  That allows all the colors to stay.
So, the printer will print normal color with the Epson driver -- on matte
paper only without changing ink carts.

Good luck with the system.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
achieve the same d-max as dyes.

Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
years  -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?

Hi there,

I know what you mean about printing on matte papers with pigment 
inks... I'm still trying to get decent dmax and not having much luck 
without losing almost all detail in the shadows _and_ getting blotchy 
areas where I've upped the black in an attempt to get good saturation.  
It's a bit of a struggle, but it by the sound of what some of the good 
folks on this board are saying, it's definitely possible.

You mentioned that you've tried different papers: were they all matte? 
Whenever I get über-frustrated with the results on matter paper (mostly 
EEM since I've been going through it so quickly... anything else would 
be prohibitively expensive!), I pull out the Eboni cartridge (MIS) out 
of my 1280 or 220, replace it with PK and fire off a few glossies that 
come out beautifully, even though they're pigment inks. I know enough 
not to expect _that_ kind of "pop" on matte paper, but it does enough 
to renew my faith in eventually achieving an image that is much better 
than what I'm producing on matte now.

So if you haven't tried anything on glossy yet, give it a shot... 
you'll need to substitute the photo black for the Ebony (if you're 
using MIS inks).

Cheers,
Jens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "i_3d_c" 
<ichristie@...> wrote:

>
> 
> My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
> I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
> paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
> puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
> B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
> thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
> disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
> settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
> love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
> achieve the same d-max as dyes.
> 
> Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
> years  -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
> or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
>

Go to www.inksupply.com and then B&W printing and the UTBO (Ultratone Black Only) inks are made for the Epson R1800. Excellent results, better then other B&W inksets I have tried. They also have some good "Help Topics" for B&W printing.
  Best, Charles
  

i_3d_c <ichristie@...> wrote:
          
My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
achieve the same d-max as dyes.

Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?



                         

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Actually, I have gotten very good results with glossy and pearl
papers. Trouble is, it's just not the look I'm after. When I look at
my prints made on Han Fine Art Pearl, I admire its fine quality. But
when I pull out one of my of prints made with Epson dye on VFA, I
realize how much i preferred the look of the bottomless black against
the completely reflection-less surface. I just wish there were a
version of this with multi-channel grey inks.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "JensGerbitz"
<jensgerbitz@...> wrote:

>
> Hi there,
> 
> I know what you mean about printing on matte papers with pigment 
> inks... I'm still trying to get decent dmax and not having much luck 
> without losing almost all detail in the shadows _and_ getting blotchy 
> areas where I've upped the black in an attempt to get good saturation.  
> It's a bit of a struggle, but it by the sound of what some of the good 
> folks on this board are saying, it's definitely possible.
> 
> You mentioned that you've tried different papers: were they all matte? 
> Whenever I get über-frustrated with the results on matter paper (mostly 
> EEM since I've been going through it so quickly... anything else would 
> be prohibitively expensive!), I pull out the Eboni cartridge (MIS) out 
> of my 1280 or 220, replace it with PK and fire off a few glossies that 
> come out beautifully, even though they're pigment inks. I know enough 
> not to expect _that_ kind of "pop" on matte paper, but it does enough 
> to renew my faith in eventually achieving an image that is much better 
> than what I'm producing on matte now.
> 
> So if you haven't tried anything on glossy yet, give it a shot... 
> you'll need to substitute the photo black for the Ebony (if you're 
> using MIS inks).
> 
> Cheers,
> Jens
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "i_3d_c" 
> <ichristie@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
> > I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
> > paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
> > puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
> > B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
> > thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
> > disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
> > settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
> > love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
> > achieve the same d-max as dyes.
> > 
> > Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
> > years  -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
> > or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
> >
>

I'm using Eboni black right now, which this set also uses. So it's
hard to imaging that switching would give me significantly greater
d-max. I've done a lot of testing and I think I've really exhausted
the pigment options. I'm really now looking for a multi-grey *dye* ink
set.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Charles Becker
<gypyjunior@...> wrote:
>
> Go to www.inksupply.com and then B&W printing and the UTBO
(Ultratone Black Only) inks are made for the Epson R1800. Excellent
results, better then other B&W inksets I have tried. They also have
some good "Help Topics" for B&W printing.

>   Best, Charles
>   
> 
> i_3d_c <ichristie@...> wrote:
>           
> My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
> I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
> paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
> puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
> B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
> thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
> disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
> settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
> love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
> achieve the same d-max as dyes.
> 
> Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
> years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
> or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
> 
> 
> 
>                          
> 
>  __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

If you're looking for high DMax, why not look at a PK setup on a 
semi-glossy paper, that should net you higher DMax than a matte paper 
and MK ink like Eboni.

-Adam


i_3d_c wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> I'm using Eboni black right now, which this set also uses. So it's
> hard to imaging that switching would give me significantly greater
> d-max. I've done a lot of testing and I think I've really exhausted
> the pigment options. I'm really now looking for a multi-grey *dye* ink
> set.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, Charles Becker
> <gypyjunior@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > Go to www.inksupply.com and then B&W printing and the UTBO
> (Ultratone Black Only) inks are made for the Epson R1800. Excellent
> results, better then other B&W inksets I have tried. They also have
> some good "Help Topics" for B&W printing.
>  > Best, Charles
>  >
>  >
>  > i_3d_c <ichristie@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
>  > I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
>  > paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
>  > puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
>  > B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
>  > thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
>  > disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
>  > settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
>  > love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
>  > achieve the same d-max as dyes.
>  >
>  > Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
>  > years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
>  > or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
>  >

I think you might be surprised at the dmax and "pop" of the Eboni 3- 
MK prints from your 1800.  Since you already have the right printer,  
ink, and QTR why not give it a try?  If you are thinking of trying  
the Lyson B&W dye inks I'd urge you to stay far away.  They exhibit  
very bad metamerism and have poor fade resistance.

Carl

On Oct 23, 2007, at 7:00 PM, i_3d_c wrote:

>
> I'm using Eboni black right now, which this set also uses. So it's
> hard to imaging that switching would give me significantly greater
> d-max. I've done a lot of testing and I think I've really exhausted
> the pigment options. I'm really now looking for a multi-grey *dye* ink
> set.
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Charles Becker
> <gypyjunior@...> wrote:
>>
>> Go to www.inksupply.com and then B&W printing and the UTBO
> (Ultratone Black Only) inks are made for the Epson R1800. Excellent
> results, better then other B&W inksets I have tried. They also have
> some good "Help Topics" for B&W printing.
>>   Best, Charles
>>
>>
>> i_3d_c <ichristie@...> wrote:
>>
>> My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
>> I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
>> paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
>> puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great  
>> for
>> B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
>> thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And  
>> was
>> disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers  
>> and
>> settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
>> love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
>> achieve the same d-max as dyes.
>>
>> Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
>> years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
>> or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?

www.oddparts.com is listing dye based inks for R800 and it's the same for the 1800.

i_3d_c <ichristie@...> wrote:          
I'm using Eboni black right now, which this set also uses. So it's
hard to imaging that switching would give me significantly greater
d-max. I've done a lot of testing and I think I've really exhausted
the pigment options. I'm really now looking for a multi-grey *dye* ink
set.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Charles Becker
<gypyjunior@...> wrote:
>
> Go to www.inksupply.com and then B&W printing and the UTBO
(Ultratone Black Only) inks are made for the Epson R1800. Excellent
results, better then other B&W inksets I have tried. They also have
some good "Help Topics" for B&W printing.
> Best, Charles
> 
> 
> i_3d_c <ichristie@...> wrote:
> 
> My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
> I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
> paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
> puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
> B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
> thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
> disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
> settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
> love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
> achieve the same d-max as dyes.
> 
> Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
> years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
> or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



                         

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "i_3d_c" 
<ichristie@...> wrote:
>
> 
 I just wish there were a
> version of this with multi-channel grey inks.
> 

I seem to recall that the Lyson Quad Tone inks were dye based. Lyson 
have been through ownership changes and I am not sure what their 
current product range is but it may be worth visiting their site to see.
regards
Alistair Owens
owens@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>
> I think you might be surprised at the dmax and "pop" of the Eboni 3- 
> MK prints from your 1800.  Since you already have the right printer,  
> ink, and QTR why not give it a try? 

I would highly agree.  I was following Paul's development of the 3MK approach with the 
R1800 when I decided to give it a try on an R220 I keep around for that sort of playing.  I 
figured if it worked well on a 3.5 p/l printer it would be that much better on a 1.5 p/l 
R1800.

I had a few extra carts and chips and plenty of eboni so all it took was some time.  I was 
very, very impressed with exactly what you mentioned.  The "pop" and the luminance were 
wonderful and the best I've gotten out of a matte paper.

I tried the same with PKN and fb papers and while good they didn't snap like the pk and  
matte papers even with the increased Dmax of the fb paper.  

One caveat: I tried this with a sample pack of Harman Matte fb warmtone and the grain 
was very pronounced and the shadows seemed blotchy and uneven.  I think the Harman fb 
paper (Baryta) has an extremely low dot gain and doesn't do well with this approach but the 
more traditional mattes were great.  Even this may be eliminated though with the 1.5p/l 
printers and is probably worth a try.

Robert

I just really like the look of deep blacks on a matte paper -- not
fond of glossy or semi-glossy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Adam Maas
<mykroft@...> wrote:
>
> If you're looking for high DMax, why not look at a PK setup on a 
> semi-glossy paper, that should net you higher DMax than a matte paper 
> and MK ink like Eboni.
> 
> -Adam
> 
> 
> i_3d_c wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I'm using Eboni black right now, which this set also uses. So it's
> > hard to imaging that switching would give me significantly greater
> > d-max. I've done a lot of testing and I think I've really exhausted
> > the pigment options. I'm really now looking for a multi-grey *dye* ink
> > set.
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, Charles
Becker
> > <gypyjunior@> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > Go to www.inksupply.com and then B&W printing and the UTBO
> > (Ultratone Black Only) inks are made for the Epson R1800. Excellent
> > results, better then other B&W inksets I have tried. They also have
> > some good "Help Topics" for B&W printing.
> >  > Best, Charles
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > i_3d_c <ichristie@> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
> >  > I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival
Matte
> >  > paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a
little
> >  > puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that
great for
> >  > B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
> >  > thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks.
And was
> >  > disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different
papers and
> >  > settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
> >  > love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
> >  > achieve the same d-max as dyes.
> >  >
> >  > Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
> >  > years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any
printers

> >  > or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
> >  >
>

Yes, this is what I've tried and while it looks fine viewed by itself
it pales next to the Epson dye black.

Actually, I think I am going to give the Lyson a go. I'm hoping the
issues you mention are more of a problem with glossy media.
I'll report back!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<list@...> wrote:

>
> I think you might be surprised at the dmax and "pop" of the Eboni 3- 
> MK prints from your 1800.  Since you already have the right printer,  
> ink, and QTR why not give it a try?  If you are thinking of trying  
> the Lyson B&W dye inks I'd urge you to stay far away.  They exhibit  
> very bad metamerism and have poor fade resistance.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Oct 23, 2007, at 7:00 PM, i_3d_c wrote:
> 
> >
> > I'm using Eboni black right now, which this set also uses. So it's
> > hard to imaging that switching would give me significantly greater
> > d-max. I've done a lot of testing and I think I've really exhausted
> > the pigment options. I'm really now looking for a multi-grey *dye* ink
> > set.
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Charles Becker
> > <gypyjunior@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Go to www.inksupply.com and then B&W printing and the UTBO
> > (Ultratone Black Only) inks are made for the Epson R1800. Excellent
> > results, better then other B&W inksets I have tried. They also have
> > some good "Help Topics" for B&W printing.
> >>   Best, Charles
> >>
> >>
> >> i_3d_c <ichristie@> wrote:
> >>
> >> My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
> >> I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
> >> paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
> >> puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great  
> >> for
> >> B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
> >> thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And  
> >> was
> >> disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers  
> >> and
> >> settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
> >> love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
> >> achieve the same d-max as dyes.
> >>
> >> Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
> >> years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
> >> or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
>

I think I'm going to give the Lyson Daylight Darkroom inks a try.
Thanks.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "alistair_owens"
<owens@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "i_3d_c" 
> <ichristie@> wrote:
> >
> > 
>  I just wish there were a
> > version of this with multi-channel grey inks.
> > 
> 
> I seem to recall that the Lyson Quad Tone inks were dye based. Lyson 
> have been through ownership changes and I am not sure what their 
> current product range is but it may be worth visiting their site to see.
> regards
> Alistair Owens
> owens@...
>

Unless they have reformulated the black ink, be prepared for purple  
prints under incandescent lighting and green/blue in daylight.  I  
think IJC developed some profiles for a Lyson composite black dye ink  
(CMY) to avoid using the black ink.  I don't know if this has been  
developed further by Lyson.  Get a sample print and walk it around  
under different lighting to see if you can tolerate the metamerism.

On Oct 23, 2007, at 11:40 PM, i_3d_c wrote:

>
> I think I'm going to give the Lyson Daylight Darkroom inks a try.
> Thanks.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "alistair_owens"
> <owens@...> wrote:
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "i_3d_c"
>> <ichristie@> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>  I just wish there were a
>>> version of this with multi-channel grey inks.
>>>
>>
>> I seem to recall that the Lyson Quad Tone inks were dye based. Lyson
>> have been through ownership changes and I am not sure what their
>> current product range is but it may be worth visiting their site  
>> to see.
>> regards
>> Alistair Owens
>> owens@...
>>

I know what you mean. I recently ran across some prints that we made 
with dye inks on H. German etching and photo rag papers that are 
stunning in comparison to anything we've been able to produce using 
Epson or Canon pigments. But you have to realize that dyes can be fickle 
and they're subject to many perils that pigments are much more resistant 
to. It's not reasonable to think that you're trading hundreds of years 
for decades, because in a bad environmental situation you could lose a 
dye print in months.

On the plus side, there are some new formulations coming out of the labs 
soon that may change all of this. I know of a few first hand, and I 
predict that within six months to a year, we'll all be using inks that 
offer more than the best of both worlds.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "i_3d_c"
My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
achieve the same d-max as dyes.

Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
years  -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?

I just purchased an R1800 and a set of three MIS inks for it. I wish I read posts like this before I made the purchases. I read all I could by knowledgeable people and it seemed the MIS 3 ink set was the way to go. Now I am not so sure. I did not buy the QTR yet and am not sure if I will. I was hoping, and is seemed it would be, a not so complicated way to get good black and whites, but aftere reading a whole string of comments saying black and white on matte paper was disappionting I am re-evaluating my position. I do not like black and white on glossy paper, never used it in my darkroom except for headshots and newspaper work. . To me matte is the way to go for black and white....maybe a little lustre. 
   
  The MIS inks I bought, the three for the R1800, are they the inks people refer to here about using to get good matte prints? You see, I am up on the terms like PK, PKN, EBoni 3-MK and have no cluse sometimes as to what people are talking about. I guess it takes a while to understand the esorteric vocabulary, but when one is trying to learn it gets frustrating. 
   
  Thanks for the help
  frank in NJ
   


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, I'm going to give it a shot. If the black is horrible, I'll put
the Epson dye back in the black slot and use the lyson greys. I *know*
I like the Epson black.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<list@...> wrote:

>
> Unless they have reformulated the black ink, be prepared for purple  
> prints under incandescent lighting and green/blue in daylight.  I  
> think IJC developed some profiles for a Lyson composite black dye ink  
> (CMY) to avoid using the black ink.  I don't know if this has been  
> developed further by Lyson.  Get a sample print and walk it around  
> under different lighting to see if you can tolerate the metamerism.
> 
> On Oct 23, 2007, at 11:40 PM, i_3d_c wrote:
> 
> >
> > I think I'm going to give the Lyson Daylight Darkroom inks a try.
> > Thanks.
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "alistair_owens"
> > <owens@> wrote:
> >>
> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "i_3d_c"
> >> <ichristie@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>  I just wish there were a
> >>> version of this with multi-channel grey inks.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I seem to recall that the Lyson Quad Tone inks were dye based. Lyson
> >> have been through ownership changes and I am not sure what their
> >> current product range is but it may be worth visiting their site  
> >> to see.
> >> regards
> >> Alistair Owens
> >> owens@
> >>
>

Jens: I think I know what you mean here.  I'd actually gone the route 
of third-party quad setup (Lyson Quad Black Neutral with their Darkroom 
Range Glossy paper).  Loved the look, and the resulting prints 
supposedly had decent archival qualities, but the unreliability of the 
system drove me out of my krell, especially since i occasionally 
printed for other people.

About two years ago, almost on a lark, I picked up this:

http://tinyurl.com/yu3npn

And that's pretty much what I've been using ever since, with the b/w 
(and color) results i've pretty much been looking for, and few if any 
hiccups or printing artifacts.  It get the Wilhelm nod, too, for what 
it's worth.  Haven't said too much about it because there isn't much of 
an "excitement factor" here: it's essentially a turnkey setup.  I'm 
using HP's inks and their better papers (along with one or two others), 
and the results have been gratifying (about to make some test pints for 
a possible exhibit).  Funny thing is, it was originally purchased as an 
"interim" printer, but I haven't seen reason to get rid of it yet.  :-)


- Barrett

I am in a similar boat - I just got MIS UT-3D inkset to use with Epson R200,
and everything is great - except that it looks nothing like a photo when
printed on Kirkland glossy paper. I didn't realize, having never printed
with pigment inks, just how obvious gloss differential would be - in
contrast, color dye prints made from my Canon on the same paper have great
lab-printed look. I have seen matt paper prints from Clayton Jones, and they
don't have these problems, but I'm not sure that I want matt. If I could get
a set of gray dye inks I'd be all over it.

Marko


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you really want lab look get it printed by a lab. ;-)

Seriously have a look at www.dalmatianlab.com They print on Ilford RC
and Fiber.

Printroom also offer a real black & white digital solution at a lesser
price.

Denis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Marko
Milisavljevic" <marko.mili@...> wrote:
>
> I am in a similar boat - I just got MIS UT-3D inkset to use with
Epson R200,
> and everything is great - except that it looks nothing like a photo when
> printed on Kirkland glossy paper. I didn't realize, having never printed
> with pigment inks, just how obvious gloss differential would be - in
> contrast, color dye prints made from my Canon on the same paper have
great
> lab-printed look. I have seen matt paper prints from Clayton Jones,
and they
> don't have these problems, but I'm not sure that I want matt. If I
could get

> a set of gray dye inks I'd be all over it.
> 
> Marko
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

actually many of us went all through the whole dye ink nightmare. I  
think the worst part was that they still did not work well with  
glossy papers. I could only get the swellable polymer papers like  
ilford pearl, and epson colorlife to work. They worked pretty well  
with matte papers, but not with glossy. the lyson links (all three  
types at the time) had matamerism even on matte papers. Trying to get  
the small gamut to be neutral was a joke. Save yourself the agony.
Inova semimatte is pretty close with a little spray. Actually epson  
ultra premium glossy is just a good with the 2400 ABW mode.

On Oct 24, 2007, at 10:02 AM, Marko Milisavljevic wrote:

> I am in a similar boat - I just got MIS UT-3D inkset to use with  
> Epson R200,
> and everything is great - except that it looks nothing like a photo  
> when
> printed on Kirkland glossy paper. I didn't realize, having never  
> printed
> with pigment inks, just how obvious gloss differential would be - in
> contrast, color dye prints made from my Canon on the same paper  
> have great
> lab-printed look. I have seen matt paper prints from Clayton Jones,  
> and they
> don't have these problems, but I'm not sure that I want matt. If I  
> could get
> a set of gray dye inks I'd be all over it.
>
> Marko
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 04:14 AM Thursday 10/25/2007, you wrote:
>Well, I'm going to give it a shot. If the black is horrible, I'll put
>the Epson dye back in the black slot and use the lyson greys. I *know*
>I like the Epson black.

A few points:
1. If you do try Lyson and want to go back to Epson, you will have to purge the ink head using cleaning cartridges as the Lyson and Pigment inks are not compatible.
2. Am I right in believing that you have been using EEM/Archival Matte? Have you tried PremierArt Matte BW? It has good Dmax and is double sided. From IT supplies it is about the same price as EEM and is acid & lignin-free - and, because it is double-sided, you end up saving on proofing.
3. I used the HP7660 for about a year - it's just hogging desk space now and I'm thinking of putting it in my spare room. I've gone so far as to tear up my old HP grey dye prints on the HP Premium Plus paper because, although the glossy paper had good Dmax and no metamerism, bronzing or gloss differential (unless you blew out the highlights), there was a green hue that was far worse a problem for me than the reduced dmax of matte paper on my Epson 2100, which I've been in love with ever since I bought it. So you could try an HP printer (HP Photosmart 8750?) or a second-hand A4 printer (although they are *very* cheap new) and try printing on matte paper and then spraying with Lyson Print Guard or PremierArt Print Shield to seal the dyes (be aware that they are very toxic). But there is a green hue which you probably won't like. I have a friend with an HP who has experimented with matte papers and if you like I can ask him what paper worked best - contact me off list and I'll pass on your inquiry to him if you like.
4. MIS make a universal black that works on glossy and matte papers and it does have dye in it. Maybe someone can tell you how the dmax compares with matte black.
5. Media Street and MIS also make dye inks (http://www.inksupply.com/epsoninks.cfm) - if you did your own cartridge filling I wonder if you could use dye black with pigments in the rest of the cartridges? Someone here will be able to tell you if that's possible. Of course the two ink types would have to be compatible (which the Lyson and UC inks are not). And the dye inks are not made for pigment printers so you never know what problems might arise.

Good luck,
Richard


--
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com
   "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for 
   them Mexicans"
   --Some politician in Texas

sounds great. i hope i recognize it when it arrives.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "babelfish"
<babelfish2@...> wrote:
>
> I know what you mean. I recently ran across some prints that we made 
> with dye inks on H. German etching and photo rag papers that are 
> stunning in comparison to anything we've been able to produce using 
> Epson or Canon pigments. But you have to realize that dyes can be
fickle 
> and they're subject to many perils that pigments are much more
resistant 
> to. It's not reasonable to think that you're trading hundreds of years 
> for decades, because in a bad environmental situation you could lose a 
> dye print in months.
> 
> On the plus side, there are some new formulations coming out of the
labs 

> soon that may change all of this. I know of a few first hand, and I 
> predict that within six months to a year, we'll all be using inks that 
> offer more than the best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "i_3d_c"
> My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
> I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
> paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
> puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
> B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
> thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
> disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
> settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
> love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
> achieve the same d-max as dyes.
> 
> Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
> years  -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
> or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
>

Good leads. Thanks Richard.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> At 04:14 AM Thursday 10/25/2007, you wrote:
> >Well, I'm going to give it a shot. If the black is horrible, I'll put
> >the Epson dye back in the black slot and use the lyson greys. I *know*
> >I like the Epson black.
> 
> A few points:
> 1. If you do try Lyson and want to go back to Epson, you will have
to purge the ink head using cleaning cartridges as the Lyson and
Pigment inks are not compatible.
> 2. Am I right in believing that you have been using EEM/Archival
Matte? Have you tried PremierArt Matte BW? It has good Dmax and is
double sided. From IT supplies it is about the same price as EEM and
is acid & lignin-free - and, because it is double-sided, you end up
saving on proofing.
> 3. I used the HP7660 for about a year - it's just hogging desk space
now and I'm thinking of putting it in my spare room. I've gone so far
as to tear up my old HP grey dye prints on the HP Premium Plus paper
because, although the glossy paper had good Dmax and no metamerism,
bronzing or gloss differential (unless you blew out the highlights),
there was a green hue that was far worse a problem for me than the
reduced dmax of matte paper on my Epson 2100, which I've been in love
with ever since I bought it. So you could try an HP printer (HP
Photosmart 8750?) or a second-hand A4 printer (although they are
*very* cheap new) and try printing on matte paper and then spraying
with Lyson Print Guard or PremierArt Print Shield to seal the dyes (be
aware that they are very toxic). But there is a green hue which you
probably won't like. I have a friend with an HP who has experimented
with matte papers and if you like I can ask him what paper worked best
- contact me off list and I'll pass on your inquiry to him if you like.
> 4. MIS make a universal black that works on glossy and matte papers
and it does have dye in it. Maybe someone can tell you how the dmax
compares with matte black.
> 5. Media Street and MIS also make dye inks
(http://www.inksupply.com/epsoninks.cfm) - if you did your own
cartridge filling I wonder if you could use dye black with pigments in
the rest of the cartridges? Someone here will be able to tell you if
that's possible. Of course the two ink types would have to be
compatible (which the Lyson and UC inks are not). And the dye inks are
not made for pigment printers so you never know what problems might arise.

> 
> Good luck,
> Richard
> 
> 
> --
> http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> http://smallfield.vze.com
>    "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for 
>    them Mexicans"
>    --Some politician in Texas
>

I know what you mean. I recently ran across some prints that we made
with dye inks on H. German etching and photo rag papers that are
stunning in comparison to anything we've been able to produce using
Epson or Canon pigments. But you have to realize that dyes can be fickle
and they're subject to many perils that pigments are much more resistant
to. It's not reasonable to think that you're trading hundreds of years
for decades, because in a bad environmental situation you could lose a
dye print in months.

On the plus side, there are some new formulations coming out of the labs
soon that may change all of this. I know of a few first hand, and I
predict that within six months to a year, we'll all be using inks that
offer more than the best of both worlds.


John Castronovo
Teclphoto
(sorry for the repost, but I forgot to sign the first one)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "i_3d_c"
My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
achieve the same d-max as dyes.

Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
years  -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?

John, I hope you are right because I don't want to get into the trouble to sell my 4000.
I also went into clogging problems. I didn't touch it for at least 5 months, I just order
some inks yesterday and wonder how the "switch on" will be.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sinwen, AS fast as changes have been coming in the inkjet industry, I am
inclined to say that there WILL be new inks that allow for great Dmax, no
need to switch between the two K positions, and last for ??? a long time.
How long did it take to put a man on the moon? We can get high quality inks
then before even those close to 50 will turn gray : ) 

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sinwen
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:52 AM
To: DIGITAL Black White Print
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: I think I want to go back to dye ink.

 

John, I hope you are right because I don't want to get into the trouble to
sell my 4000.
I also went into clogging problems. I didn't touch it for at least 5 months,
I just order
some inks yesterday and wonder how the "switch on" will be.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Babelfish gets an A+ for response! All too true.

i_3d_c <ichristie@sbcglobal.net> wrote:          
sounds great. i hope i recognize it when it arrives.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "babelfish"
<babelfish2@...> wrote:
>
> I know what you mean. I recently ran across some prints that we made 
> with dye inks on H. German etching and photo rag papers that are 
> stunning in comparison to anything we've been able to produce using 
> Epson or Canon pigments. But you have to realize that dyes can be
fickle 
> and they're subject to many perils that pigments are much more
resistant 
> to. It's not reasonable to think that you're trading hundreds of years 
> for decades, because in a bad environmental situation you could lose a 
> dye print in months.
> 
> On the plus side, there are some new formulations coming out of the
labs 
> soon that may change all of this. I know of a few first hand, and I 
> predict that within six months to a year, we'll all be using inks that 
> offer more than the best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "i_3d_c"
> My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
> I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
> paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
> puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
> B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
> thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
> disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
> settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
> love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
> achieve the same d-max as dyes.
> 
> Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
> years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
> or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
>



                         

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Great response John, all too true.

john castronovo <jc@...> wrote:          I know what you mean. I recently ran across some prints that we made
with dye inks on H. German etching and photo rag papers that are
stunning in comparison to anything we've been able to produce using
Epson or Canon pigments. But you have to realize that dyes can be fickle
and they're subject to many perils that pigments are much more resistant
to. It's not reasonable to think that you're trading hundreds of years
for decades, because in a bad environmental situation you could lose a
dye print in months.

On the plus side, there are some new formulations coming out of the labs
soon that may change all of this. I know of a few first hand, and I
predict that within six months to a year, we'll all be using inks that
offer more than the best of both worlds.

John Castronovo
Teclphoto
(sorry for the repost, but I forgot to sign the first one)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "i_3d_c"
My first inkjet printer was the Epson 1270.
I scanned some of my old 4x5 negs and printed them on Archival Matte
paper. I fell completely in love with the results, which was a little
puzzling because I had read that the 1270 wasn't really that great for
B&W. I thought I'd like to get more serious about this B&W printing
thing so I bought an Epson r1800 and dedicated greyscale inks. And was
disappointed. After hours & hours of testing with different papers and
settings (and QTR) I just couldn't achieve the look I had fallen in
love with with the 1270. Long story short, pigment inks just can't
achieve the same d-max as dyes.

Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?



                         

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am a printer/photographer who prints for a number of artists and
photographers on a number of papers and canvasses, using an 11 color
Endurachrome (dye) ink set to include a wonderful quad black, by a Colorspan
thermal head printer.  I know that it is now ³common knowledge² that dyes
are fugitive and pigments are ³permanent², that to suggest this is an
oversimplification is heresy.  Let me point out that tests of this dye set
on canvas have suggested an 80 year permanence, I believe without any UV
spray.  Admittedly, this is a particular combination of Colorspan canvas and
ink. 

However, I would direct your attention to the study done by Golden on the
effect of applying various numbers of levels of mineral spirit based UV
spray to both pigment and dye printed images and comparing the likely
longevity.  As expected, there is a tremendous advantage for pigments
without UV protection, but the expected longevity of both was pretty poor
without coating.  Above a certain number of spray layers there was little
real difference in expected longevity between dyes and pigments on the same
media.  This is why I stay with the beautiful 4K and 11 color ink (finest
gamut I have ever seen), but with the addition of mineral spirits UV spray,
6 to 9 layers.  Canvas often gets, in addition, brushed on Golden Acrylic
Gel with UV blocker.  J Vee (www.jvee.com)




On 10/24/07 7:04 AM, "babelfish" <babelfish2@verizon.net> wrote:

>  
>  
>  
> 
> I know what you mean. I recently ran across some prints that we made
> with dye inks on H. German etching and photo rag papers that are
> stunning in comparison to anything we've been able to produce using
> Epson or Canon pigments. But you have to realize that dyes can be fickle
> and they're subject to many perils that pigments are much more resistant
> to. It's not reasonable to think that you're trading hundreds of years
> for decades, because in a bad environmental situation you could lose a
> dye print in months.
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?


Yes, Lyson has specialized in this. They have been making an
"archival" :-), neutral quad set and a tonable quad set called Small
Gamut monochrome, for several years. And, by the way, they stink. The
metamerism in incandescent light makes both of them unusable in my
opinion and I spent a lot of money on this junk. And if you put them
in an Epson printer and try to go back to pigments you'll most likely
loose that printer to disasterous clogging.

john

For what it's worth, Lyson Fotonics clogged way past an acceptable  
level in my 7600.  This was on a new print head, after I had a  
disastrous experience with their Caves, which I decided was not the  
ink's fault, and so tried the Fotonics which had just then come out  
for the 7600.  If I wasn't the first to use them, I certainly was one  
of the first.  And maybe the only one :  )  And they looked good,  
when they worked, which I decided wasn't often enough.  I would have  
to run cleaning cycles from one print to the next. I went to MIS pros  
and had virtually no clogging problems.

As far as longevity goes, they faded on un-glassed prints in less  
than a year in dry Arizona.  A framed glass print, however, still  
looks unfaded now several years later.  I know that this discussion  
is about b&w inks, but thought that I'd throw my experience out for  
what it's worth.  Simply put, I'll never buy anything that says Lyson  
on it again.  Too bad;  when I first started printing with inkjet,  
Lyson was the first third party ink manufacturer that I became aware  
of, and therefore a leader in the field, as far as I knew.  Today  
their esteem has fallen badly, at least in my eyes.

James



On Oct 25, 2007, at 4:06 PM, john dean wrote:

> Assuming that I'm not interested in my prints lasting hundreds of
> years -- a couple of decades would be nice -- are there any printers
> or 3rd party inksets that have greyscale dye inks?
>
> Yes, Lyson has specialized in this. They have been making an
> "archival" :-), neutral quad set and a tonable quad set called Small
> Gamut monochrome, for several years. And, by the way, they stink. The
> metamerism in incandescent light makes both of them unusable in my
> opinion and I spent a lot of money on this junk. And if you put them
> in an Epson printer and try to go back to pigments you'll most likely
> loose that printer to disasterous clogging.
>
> john
>
>
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Paul, 
I bought paper from MIS that was called something to the effect 
of "Paul Roark Trial Pack". Are those papers you would recommend or 
did they name them that even if you do'nt recommend them. 

The 3 inks I bought were the blacks recommended on the MIS site for 
the R1800. Do you suggest them also. I have not opened them yet as I 
am still trying to learn profiles. 
thanks for your response and help.
Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Frank,
> 
> >I just purchased an R1800 and a set of three MIS inks for it...
> 
> Read my write-up on this approach at
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.htm 
> 
> 
> >I bought a pack of trial papers suggested by Paul Roark ...
> 
> Go by my web page, above, to see what I recommend.  MIS puts 
together some
> collections of papers that are not necessarily what I recommend 
for the
> R1800 3-MK approach.  (I'm not MIS.)  Try, for example, Epson 
Premier Art
> (205 gsm) "Scrapbook" paper for a start.  It's cheap and readily 
available
> through outfits like www.Alex.com .
> 
> >... why is there an ink for the GO spot on the ink carrier. 
> 
> I use that spot (as well as the PK and MK spots) of an Eboni cart 
so that I
> do not have to use a color ink spot.  That allows all the colors 
to stay.
> So, the printer will print normal color with the Epson driver -- 
on matte

> paper only without changing ink carts.
> 
> Good luck with the system.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi Frank,
 
>I bought paper from MIS that was called something to 
>the effect of "Paul Roark Trial Pack". 
>Are those papers you would recommend or 
>did they name them that even if you do'nt recommend them. 

I found these papers on their web page as the "Roark sample pack":

>Museo Silver Rag --

This is a nice paper for glossy printing.  It's one of the new "fiber based"
glossy papers that looks more like a traditional silver print.  It's not
useable with the 1800 3-MK setup, however.  It requires Photo black ink.

>Epson Enhance Matte -- 

This is acidic paper that feeds well and is often used for proofing or print
that do not have to be archival.  It gives a warm split-tone effect with the
3-MK setup.

>Kirkland Photo Gloss --

A great bargain paper for glossy, RC type look -- but it's not compatible
with the 3-MK approach.

>Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Matte --

Probably the most popular matte paper for fine art, this paper also gives a
warm split tone look with the 3-MK approach.  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-OBA-Papers.pdf for a comparison of
the EEM and Photo Rag tones to what one sees in LensWork magazine.

>Premier Hot Press Fine Art Smooth Matte White, 12 Mils, 205gsm --

This is the same as Epson's Premier Art Scrapbook paper.  It's said to be
Epson's most archival paper, and it's a bargain.  It feeds well in most
printers and is a paper I highly recommend for the 3-MK approach.  Red
River's Aurora is about the only cotton paper I know of that might be an
even better bargain.  I have not fade tested the Aurora, but I would not
expect a major difference.

>Alpha Cellulose --

This paper has a very nice warm tone.  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-No-OBA-Paper.pdf for a graph of its
tone.  

>The 3 inks I bought were the blacks recommended on the 
>MIS site for the R1800. Do you suggest them also. 

I assume they are selling Eboni MK for the three slots I recommend in my
write-up at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.htm   This is the setup I
use for my fine art printing for 13" paper.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Just an update for anyone who may be interested...
I ordered a set of Lyson Daylight Darkroom inks and loaded them into
Epson 1270 refillable cartridges and ran out some tests, starting with
the QTR calibration image.

I compared Lyson inks, the Epson dye black (on the 1270) and MIS
pigment inks (on my r1800). I test with both Epson Velvet Fine Art &
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag.

The blackest black was the Epson dye black on Hahnemuhle PR. VFA was
pretty close in terms of density but looked less sharp -- so I
declared HPR the winner. The Lyson black fell about half-way between
the Epson black and MIS Eboni.

I moved on to creating a QTR profile with Epson black, Lyson dark grey
and Lyson light grey on HPR.

Long story short -- The results were exactly what I was looking for.
Very deep blacks and a very smooth neutral grey range. Even though
glossy or lustre blacks may measure darker, I find the dye blacks on
HPR *feel* deeper.

Of course, longevity is an unknown. But then I always print pigment
versions as well plus I'll (hopefully) always have the digital files
around for reprints 40 years from now.  :-)

thanks for the input.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "i_3d_c"
<ichristie@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Good leads. Thanks Richard.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
> Smallfield <r.smallfield@> wrote:
> >
> > At 04:14 AM Thursday 10/25/2007, you wrote:
> > >Well, I'm going to give it a shot. If the black is horrible, I'll put
> > >the Epson dye back in the black slot and use the lyson greys. I
*know*
> > >I like the Epson black.
> > 
> > A few points:
> > 1. If you do try Lyson and want to go back to Epson, you will have
> to purge the ink head using cleaning cartridges as the Lyson and
> Pigment inks are not compatible.
> > 2. Am I right in believing that you have been using EEM/Archival
> Matte? Have you tried PremierArt Matte BW? It has good Dmax and is
> double sided. From IT supplies it is about the same price as EEM and
> is acid & lignin-free - and, because it is double-sided, you end up
> saving on proofing.
> > 3. I used the HP7660 for about a year - it's just hogging desk space
> now and I'm thinking of putting it in my spare room. I've gone so far
> as to tear up my old HP grey dye prints on the HP Premium Plus paper
> because, although the glossy paper had good Dmax and no metamerism,
> bronzing or gloss differential (unless you blew out the highlights),
> there was a green hue that was far worse a problem for me than the
> reduced dmax of matte paper on my Epson 2100, which I've been in love
> with ever since I bought it. So you could try an HP printer (HP
> Photosmart 8750?) or a second-hand A4 printer (although they are
> *very* cheap new) and try printing on matte paper and then spraying
> with Lyson Print Guard or PremierArt Print Shield to seal the dyes (be
> aware that they are very toxic). But there is a green hue which you
> probably won't like. I have a friend with an HP who has experimented
> with matte papers and if you like I can ask him what paper worked best
> - contact me off list and I'll pass on your inquiry to him if you like.
> > 4. MIS make a universal black that works on glossy and matte papers
> and it does have dye in it. Maybe someone can tell you how the dmax
> compares with matte black.
> > 5. Media Street and MIS also make dye inks
> (http://www.inksupply.com/epsoninks.cfm) - if you did your own
> cartridge filling I wonder if you could use dye black with pigments in
> the rest of the cartridges? Someone here will be able to tell you if
> that's possible. Of course the two ink types would have to be
> compatible (which the Lyson and UC inks are not). And the dye inks are
> not made for pigment printers so you never know what problems might
arise.

> > 
> > Good luck,
> > Richard
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
> > http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> > http://smallfield.vze.com
> >    "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for 
> >    them Mexicans"
> >    --Some politician in Texas
> >
>

As far as longevity is concerned, note the study (and graph) by Golden Paint
Company that compares dye and pigment image longevity vs applications of
various UV/abrasion coatings.  The results are quite striking to me.
Basically, non coated images have a very poor longevity with dye images the
worst.  However there is great improvement with the best coatings and the
difference between pigment and dye image longevity is negligible in a
properly coated image.  J Vee





On 11/16/07 1:23 PM, "i_3d_c" <ichristie@...> wrote:

Of course, longevity is an unknown. But then I always print pigment
> versions as well plus I'll (hopefully) always have the digital files
> around for reprints 40 years from now.  :-)
> 
> thanks for the input.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> , "i_3d_c"
> <ichristie@...> wrote:



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 08:23 AM Saturday 11/17/2007, you wrote:
>Just an update for anyone who may be interested...
>I ordered a set of Lyson Daylight Darkroom inks and loaded them into
>Epson 1270 refillable cartridges and ran out some tests, starting with
>the QTR calibration image.
>
>I compared Lyson inks, the Epson dye black (on the 1270) and MIS
>pigment inks (on my r1800). I test with both Epson Velvet Fine Art &
>Hahnemuhle Photo Rag.
>
>The blackest black was the Epson dye black on Hahnemuhle PR. VFA was
>pretty close in terms of density but looked less sharp -- so I
>declared HPR the winner.

A friend of mine ( http://www.alanmorton.co.nz/ ) used to print Black Only OEM prints from an Epson 1270 on Watman uncoated rag paper. (No longer made - and much less dmax, which you don't want.)

He found the lightfastness of the OEM dye Black Only to be good. But you have to not mind the dottier appearance - which his use of the heavily textured papers mitigated.

Maybe Hahnemuhle William Turner might work better with Black Only, due to its texture? (Clayton Jones might have some comments on this.) It might be image dependent, maybe, in terms of its acceptability.

Good luck,
Richard 
--
Backroads Essay:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
Greeting Cards available for purchase:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com

   "An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose 
   time has come."
   --Victor Hugo

>As far as longevity is concerned, note the study (and graph) by Golden 

>Paint Company that compares dye and pigment image longevity vs 

>applications of various UV/abrasion coatings.  The results are quite 

>striking to me.  Basically, non coated images have a very poor longevity

>with dye images the worst. However there is great improvement with 

>the best coatings and the difference between pigment and dye image 

>longevity is negligible in a properly coated image.   J Vee

 

Is this the URL for the Golden Paints article?

http://www.goldenpaints.com/justpaint/jp14article2.php  

 

This URL has charts comparing various inks and coatings, and the Golden UV
coatings appear to make a dramatic difference.

 

The article notes:  "For accelerated lightfastness testing we utilized Q-Lab
QUV type instruments with UV-A 351 bulbs."

 

When reading or trying to interpret the results of these tests, one must
consider the light used.  Here, keep in mind that Golden used a UV light
source.  Then their UV coating was applied to the test images.  A UV coating
filters out UV light.  Thus the coating might have been almost opaque to the
light that was used.  But the coating obviously lets through almost all
visible light.

 

Visible light is probably responsible for most of the indoor display print
fading that is due to light.  Window glass filters out much of the worst UV.
Wilhelm and RIT, as far as I know, use fluorescent lights that have a
spectrum much like we actually use inside - not searing UV radiation.  Paint
companies and outdoor sign companies are more likely to use a high UV Xenon
light because outdoor lighting contains much more UV than indoor lighting,
and these commercial accelerated light faders are fast.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J Vee
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 11:36 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: I think I want to go back to dye ink.

 

As far as longevity is concerned, note the study (and graph) by Golden Paint
Company that compares dye and pigment image longevity vs applications of
various UV/abrasion coatings. The results are quite striking to me.
Basically, non coated images have a very poor longevity with dye images the
worst. However there is great improvement with the best coatings and the
difference between pigment and dye image longevity is negligible in a
properly coated image. J Vee

On 11/16/07 1:23 PM, "i_3d_c" <ichristie@sbcglobal
<mailto:ichristie%40sbcglobal.net> .net> wrote:

Of course, longevity is an unknown. But then I always print pigment
> versions as well plus I'll (hopefully) always have the digital files
> around for reprints 40 years from now. :-)
> 
> thanks for the input.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> , "i_3d_c"
> <ichristie@...> wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]