Digital BW, The Print

With all of the talk about film scanners, thought I would share what I'm doing.  I've been flatbed scanning b&w prints ,( from the past 25 years) with a UMAX Mirage SEII, both 8x10 and 11x14 inch prints as it will scan print sizes up to 12 x 17.  I am scanning so that I print at a minimum of 300 dpi.  I'm making mostly 15 inch wide prints, from prints done in various formats thru the years, 35mm, 2,1/4, and 4x5 & 8x10 contact prints... I am getting, which I believe, is great quality.  In most cases I like the inkjet print better than the original, and I am a very good wet print maker.  People are telling me that I am sacrificing quality by scanning prints, but quite frankly I know that should be the case, but I can't imagine seeing any more detail in the print than I am seeing now. ( I sent a few prints to Jerry Olson to view and I don't believe that he would have known the prints were done by scanning a print rather than a negative.)
It is much easier for me to access the prints rather than search thru 25 years worth of negatives, which is the main reason I'm doing it this way, also, tho because the prints look so darn good.
So for those of you wanting to convert prints that you have on hand, don't overlook flatbed scanning, you don't need that $5000.00 scanner to produce great looking work.
I'm printing b&w with a 1280, CIS and MIS 6 color dyes on LPM.
David Aschkenas

David,

Scanning prints is a legit method of getting your photos into digital form.
The "Special Edition" silver fiber prints sold by Lenswork are produce using
this method (although I believe they use a drum scanner). The selected
prints are scanned and the resulting file is output on a 3600 dpi image
setter to make contact negatives.

The results are excellent and I cannot distinguish them from an enlarged
silver print. I have a Jay Dussard and a Bruce Barnbaum print. Excellent
prints. Anyone wanting to produce silver prints from their digital files
should check this out.

Having said all that I would still recommend that scanning the original
negatives as the best way to reduce the number of reproduction steps, since
there is lose of information each time an image is duplicated. The loss, as
you say, may be so small that it is not noticeable. You would really have to
do a side-by-side of finished prints produced by both methods to know for
sure.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: <daschkenas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints


> With all of the talk about film scanners, thought I would share what I'm
doing.  I've been flatbed scanning b&w prints ,( from the past 25 years)
with a UMAX Mirage SEII, both 8x10 and 11x14 inch prints as it will scan
print sizes up to 12 x 17.  I am scanning so that I print at a minimum of
300 dpi.  I'm making mostly 15 inch wide prints, from prints done in various
formats thru the years, 35mm, 2,1/4, and 4x5 & 8x10 contact prints... I am
getting, which I believe, is great quality.  In most cases I like the inkjet
print better than the original, and I am a very good wet print maker.
People are telling me that I am sacrificing quality by scanning prints, but
quite frankly I know that should be the case, but I can't imagine seeing any
more detail in the print than I am seeing now. ( I sent a few prints to
Jerry Olson to view and I don't believe that he would have known the prints
were done by scanning a print rather than a negative.)
> It is much easier for me to access the prints rather than search thru 25
years worth of negatives, which is the main reason I'm doing it this way,
also, tho because the prints look so darn good.
> So for those of you wanting to convert prints that you have on hand, don't
overlook flatbed scanning, you don't need that $5000.00 scanner to produce
great looking work.
> I'm printing b&w with a 1280, CIS and MIS 6 color dyes on LPM.
> David Aschkenas
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin,

Do you have the web address for Lenswork's Special Editions? I am interested to know more about this.

-Della


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:

> David,
> 
> Scanning prints is a legit method of getting your photos into digital form.
> The "Special Edition" silver fiber prints sold by Lenswork are produce using
> this method (although I believe they use a drum scanner). The selected
> prints are scanned and the resulting file is output on a 3600 dpi image
> setter to make contact negatives.
> 
> The results are excellent and I cannot distinguish them from an enlarged
> silver print. I have a Jay Dussard and a Bruce Barnbaum print. Excellent
> prints. Anyone wanting to produce silver prints from their digital files
> should check this out.
> 
> Having said all that I would still recommend that scanning the original
> negatives as the best way to reduce the number of reproduction steps, since
> there is lose of information each time an image is duplicated. The loss, as
> you say, may be so small that it is not noticeable. You would really have to
> do a side-by-side of finished prints produced by both methods to know for
> sure.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <daschkenas@a...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> 
> 
> > With all of the talk about film scanners, thought I would share what I'm
> doing.  I've been flatbed scanning b&w prints ,( from the past 25 years)
> with a UMAX Mirage SEII, both 8x10 and 11x14 inch prints as it will scan
> print sizes up to 12 x 17.  I am scanning so that I print at a minimum of
> 300 dpi.  I'm making mostly 15 inch wide prints, from prints done in various
> formats thru the years, 35mm, 2,1/4, and 4x5 & 8x10 contact prints... I am
> getting, which I believe, is great quality.  In most cases I like the inkjet
> print better than the original, and I am a very good wet print maker.
> People are telling me that I am sacrificing quality by scanning prints, but
> quite frankly I know that should be the case, but I can't imagine seeing any
> more detail in the print than I am seeing now. ( I sent a few prints to
> Jerry Olson to view and I don't believe that he would have known the prints
> were done by scanning a print rather than a negative.)
> > It is much easier for me to access the prints rather than search thru 25
> years worth of negatives, which is the main reason I'm doing it this way,
> also, tho because the prints look so darn good.
> > So for those of you wanting to convert prints that you have on hand, don't
> overlook flatbed scanning, you don't need that $5000.00 scanner to produce
> great looking work.
> > I'm printing b&w with a 1280, CIS and MIS 6 color dyes on LPM.
> > David Aschkenas
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >

Della,

Check out both these sites. Especially the second one as this gives some of
the workflow.

http://www.lenswork.com/index2.html

http://www.danburkholder.com/

If you give any of this a try, please share your experiences. I would like
to more than just inkjet info on the list.

Thanks,
Martin


----- Original Message -----
From: "dellaellingson" <dellaellingson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints


> Martin,
>
> Do you have the web address for Lenswork's Special Editions? I am
interested to know more about this.
>
> -Della
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > Scanning prints is a legit method of getting your photos into digital
form.
> > The "Special Edition" silver fiber prints sold by Lenswork are produce
using
> > this method (although I believe they use a drum scanner). The selected
> > prints are scanned and the resulting file is output on a 3600 dpi image
> > setter to make contact negatives.
> >
> > The results are excellent and I cannot distinguish them from an enlarged
> > silver print. I have a Jay Dussard and a Bruce Barnbaum print. Excellent
> > prints. Anyone wanting to produce silver prints from their digital files
> > should check this out.
> >
> > Having said all that I would still recommend that scanning the original
> > negatives as the best way to reduce the number of reproduction steps,
since
> > there is lose of information each time an image is duplicated. The loss,
as
> > you say, may be so small that it is not noticeable. You would really
have to
> > do a side-by-side of finished prints produced by both methods to know
for
> > sure.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <daschkenas@a...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> >
> >
> > > With all of the talk about film scanners, thought I would share what
I'm
> > doing.  I've been flatbed scanning b&w prints ,( from the past 25 years)
> > with a UMAX Mirage SEII, both 8x10 and 11x14 inch prints as it will scan
> > print sizes up to 12 x 17.  I am scanning so that I print at a minimum
of
> > 300 dpi.  I'm making mostly 15 inch wide prints, from prints done in
various
> > formats thru the years, 35mm, 2,1/4, and 4x5 & 8x10 contact prints... I
am
> > getting, which I believe, is great quality.  In most cases I like the
inkjet
> > print better than the original, and I am a very good wet print maker.
> > People are telling me that I am sacrificing quality by scanning prints,
but
> > quite frankly I know that should be the case, but I can't imagine seeing
any
> > more detail in the print than I am seeing now. ( I sent a few prints to
> > Jerry Olson to view and I don't believe that he would have known the
prints
> > were done by scanning a print rather than a negative.)
> > > It is much easier for me to access the prints rather than search thru
25
> > years worth of negatives, which is the main reason I'm doing it this
way,
> > also, tho because the prints look so darn good.
> > > So for those of you wanting to convert prints that you have on hand,
don't
> > overlook flatbed scanning, you don't need that $5000.00 scanner to
produce
> > great looking work.
> > > I'm printing b&w with a 1280, CIS and MIS 6 color dyes on LPM.
> > > David Aschkenas
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Thanks Martin.

-Della 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:

> Della,
> 
> Check out both these sites. Especially the second one as this gives some of
> the workflow.
> 
> http://www.lenswork.com/index2.html
> 
> http://www.danburkholder.com/
> 
> If you give any of this a try, please share your experiences. I would like
> to more than just inkjet info on the list.
> 
> Thanks,
> Martin
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dellaellingson" <dellaellingson@y...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> 
> 
> > Martin,
> >
> > Do you have the web address for Lenswork's Special Editions? I am
> interested to know more about this.
> >
> > -Della
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > David,
> > >
> > > Scanning prints is a legit method of getting your photos into digital
> form.
> > > The "Special Edition" silver fiber prints sold by Lenswork are produce
> using
> > > this method (although I believe they use a drum scanner). The selected
> > > prints are scanned and the resulting file is output on a 3600 dpi image
> > > setter to make contact negatives.
> > >
> > > The results are excellent and I cannot distinguish them from an enlarged
> > > silver print. I have a Jay Dussard and a Bruce Barnbaum print. Excellent
> > > prints. Anyone wanting to produce silver prints from their digital files
> > > should check this out.
> > >
> > > Having said all that I would still recommend that scanning the original
> > > negatives as the best way to reduce the number of reproduction steps,
> since
> > > there is lose of information each time an image is duplicated. The loss,
> as
> > > you say, may be so small that it is not noticeable. You would really
> have to
> > > do a side-by-side of finished prints produced by both methods to know
> for
> > > sure.
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <daschkenas@a...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:30 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> > >
> > >
> > > > With all of the talk about film scanners, thought I would share what
> I'm
> > > doing.  I've been flatbed scanning b&w prints ,( from the past 25 years)
> > > with a UMAX Mirage SEII, both 8x10 and 11x14 inch prints as it will scan
> > > print sizes up to 12 x 17.  I am scanning so that I print at a minimum
> of
> > > 300 dpi.  I'm making mostly 15 inch wide prints, from prints done in
> various
> > > formats thru the years, 35mm, 2,1/4, and 4x5 & 8x10 contact prints... I
> am
> > > getting, which I believe, is great quality.  In most cases I like the
> inkjet
> > > print better than the original, and I am a very good wet print maker.
> > > People are telling me that I am sacrificing quality by scanning prints,
> but
> > > quite frankly I know that should be the case, but I can't imagine seeing
> any
> > > more detail in the print than I am seeing now. ( I sent a few prints to
> > > Jerry Olson to view and I don't believe that he would have known the
> prints
> > > were done by scanning a print rather than a negative.)
> > > > It is much easier for me to access the prints rather than search thru
> 25
> > > years worth of negatives, which is the main reason I'm doing it this
> way,
> > > also, tho because the prints look so darn good.
> > > > So for those of you wanting to convert prints that you have on hand,
> don't
> > > overlook flatbed scanning, you don't need that $5000.00 scanner to
> produce
> > > great looking work.
> > > > I'm printing b&w with a 1280, CIS and MIS 6 color dyes on LPM.
> > > > David Aschkenas
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > >
> > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
> > > them short.
> > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > > resources on the homepage.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >

I don't think we should automatically assume that a negative 
scanner makes a better inkjet print than a flatbed scan from a 
glossy silver print.

See Ralph Gibson's interview in the Feb. Shutterbug for his 
support of flatbed scanning.  

My pro scanner friend with a Scitek scanner is always telling me 
to bring him prints rather than negs as he can do a better job 
with them.

My own experience with a Minolta Pro indicates that my little 
Epson flatbed 636 makes better scans from b/w prints than the 
$3000 Minolta can do from the same 6X7 and 645 negatives.  
The negative scanner introduces too much grain aliasing into 
the equation.

Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "dellaellingson" 
<dellaellingson@y...> wrote:
> Thanks Martin.
> 
> -Della 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Della,
> > 
> > Check out both these sites. Especially the second one as 
this gives some of
> > the workflow.
> > 
> > http://www.lenswork.com/index2.html
> > 
> > http://www.danburkholder.com/
> > 
> > If you give any of this a try, please share your experiences. I 
would like
> > to more than just inkjet info on the list.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Martin
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dellaellingson" <dellaellingson@y...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> > 
> > 
> > > Martin,
> > >
> > > Do you have the web address for Lenswork's Special 
Editions? I am
> > interested to know more about this.
> > >
> > > -Della
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > > Scanning prints is a legit method of getting your photos 
into digital
> > form.
> > > > The "Special Edition" silver fiber prints sold by Lenswork 
are produce
> > using
> > > > this method (although I believe they use a drum 
scanner). The selected
> > > > prints are scanned and the resulting file is output on a 
3600 dpi image
> > > > setter to make contact negatives.
> > > >
> > > > The results are excellent and I cannot distinguish them 
from an enlarged
> > > > silver print. I have a Jay Dussard and a Bruce Barnbaum 
print. Excellent
> > > > prints. Anyone wanting to produce silver prints from their 
digital files
> > > > should check this out.
> > > >
> > > > Having said all that I would still recommend that 
scanning the original
> > > > negatives as the best way to reduce the number of 
reproduction steps,
> > since
> > > > there is lose of information each time an image is 
duplicated. The loss,
> > as
> > > > you say, may be so small that it is not noticeable. You 
would really
> > have to
> > > > do a side-by-side of finished prints produced by both 
methods to know
> > for
> > > > sure.
> > > >
> > > > Martin Wesley
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <daschkenas@a...>
> > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:30 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > With all of the talk about film scanners, thought I would 
share what
> > I'm
> > > > doing.  I've been flatbed scanning b&w prints ,( from the 
past 25 years)
> > > > with a UMAX Mirage SEII, both 8x10 and 11x14 inch prints 
as it will scan
> > > > print sizes up to 12 x 17.  I am scanning so that I print at a 
minimum
> > of
> > > > 300 dpi.  I'm making mostly 15 inch wide prints, from 
prints done in
> > various
> > > > formats thru the years, 35mm, 2,1/4, and 4x5 & 8x10 
contact prints... I
> > am
> > > > getting, which I believe, is great quality.  In most cases I 
like the
> > inkjet
> > > > print better than the original, and I am a very good wet 
print maker.
> > > > People are telling me that I am sacrificing quality by 
scanning prints,
> > but
> > > > quite frankly I know that should be the case, but I can't 
imagine seeing
> > any
> > > > more detail in the print than I am seeing now. ( I sent a 
few prints to
> > > > Jerry Olson to view and I don't believe that he would have 
known the
> > prints
> > > > were done by scanning a print rather than a negative.)
> > > > > It is much easier for me to access the prints rather than 
search thru
> > 25
> > > > years worth of negatives, which is the main reason I'm 
doing it this
> > way,
> > > > also, tho because the prints look so darn good.
> > > > > So for those of you wanting to convert prints that you 
have on hand,
> > don't
> > > > overlook flatbed scanning, you don't need that $5000.00 
scanner to
> > produce
> > > > great looking work.
> > > > > I'm printing b&w with a 1280, CIS and MIS 6 color dyes 
on LPM.
> > > > > David Aschkenas
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls
> > and
> > > > other resources as they are often being updated. The 
page is at:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > > >
> > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to
> > keep
> > > > them short.
> > > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change 
the subject
> > header.
> > > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal 
attacks or
> > "flames."
> > > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > > - Before posting a question, search the message 
archives and the
> > various
> > > > resources on the homepage.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> > >
> > > 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal 
attacks or "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> > >
> > >
> > >

But don't you have a detail problem?  No print can hold a tenth the detail of film!

I know you can get good scans IF you have a perfect print, but you'd still be losing a lot of detail, no?

Jerry

culturalvisions wrote:

> I don't think we should automatically assume that a negative
> scanner makes a better inkjet print than a flatbed scan from a
> glossy silver print.
>
> See Ralph Gibson's interview in the Feb. Shutterbug for his
> support of flatbed scanning.
>
> My pro scanner friend with a Scitek scanner is always telling me
> to bring him prints rather than negs as he can do a better job
> with them.
>
> My own experience with a Minolta Pro indicates that my little
> Epson flatbed 636 makes better scans from b/w prints than the
> $3000 Minolta can do from the same 6X7 and 645 negatives.
> The negative scanner introduces too much grain aliasing into
> the equation.
>
> Frank
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "dellaellingson"
> <dellaellingson@y...> wrote:
> > Thanks Martin.
> >
> > -Della
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > Della,
> > >
> > > Check out both these sites. Especially the second one as
> this gives some of
> > > the workflow.
> > >
> > > http://www.lenswork.com/index2.html
> > >
> > > http://www.danburkholder.com/
> > >
> > > If you give any of this a try, please share your experiences. I
> would like
> > > to more than just inkjet info on the list.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "dellaellingson" <dellaellingson@y...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:15 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> > >
> > >
> > > > Martin,
> > > >
> > > > Do you have the web address for Lenswork's Special
> Editions? I am
> > > interested to know more about this.
> > > >
> > > > -Della
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > > David,
> > > > >
> > > > > Scanning prints is a legit method of getting your photos
> into digital
> > > form.
> > > > > The "Special Edition" silver fiber prints sold by Lenswork
> are produce
> > > using
> > > > > this method (although I believe they use a drum
> scanner). The selected
> > > > > prints are scanned and the resulting file is output on a
> 3600 dpi image
> > > > > setter to make contact negatives.
> > > > >
> > > > > The results are excellent and I cannot distinguish them
> from an enlarged
> > > > > silver print. I have a Jay Dussard and a Bruce Barnbaum
> print. Excellent
> > > > > prints. Anyone wanting to produce silver prints from their
> digital files
> > > > > should check this out.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having said all that I would still recommend that
> scanning the original
> > > > > negatives as the best way to reduce the number of
> reproduction steps,
> > > since
> > > > > there is lose of information each time an image is
> duplicated. The loss,
> > > as
> > > > > you say, may be so small that it is not noticeable. You
> would really
> > > have to
> > > > > do a side-by-side of finished prints produced by both
> methods to know
> > > for
> > > > > sure.
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin Wesley
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <daschkenas@a...>
> > > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:30 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > With all of the talk about film scanners, thought I would
> share what
> > > I'm
> > > > > doing.  I've been flatbed scanning b&w prints ,( from the
> past 25 years)
> > > > > with a UMAX Mirage SEII, both 8x10 and 11x14 inch prints
> as it will scan
> > > > > print sizes up to 12 x 17.  I am scanning so that I print at a
> minimum
> > > of
> > > > > 300 dpi.  I'm making mostly 15 inch wide prints, from
> prints done in
> > > various
> > > > > formats thru the years, 35mm, 2,1/4, and 4x5 & 8x10
> contact prints... I
> > > am
> > > > > getting, which I believe, is great quality.  In most cases I
> like the
> > > inkjet
> > > > > print better than the original, and I am a very good wet
> print maker.
> > > > > People are telling me that I am sacrificing quality by
> scanning prints,
> > > but
> > > > > quite frankly I know that should be the case, but I can't
> imagine seeing
> > > any
> > > > > more detail in the print than I am seeing now. ( I sent a
> few prints to
> > > > > Jerry Olson to view and I don't believe that he would have
> known the
> > > prints
> > > > > were done by scanning a print rather than a negative.)
> > > > > > It is much easier for me to access the prints rather than
> search thru
> > > 25
> > > > > years worth of negatives, which is the main reason I'm
> doing it this
> > > way,
> > > > > also, tho because the prints look so darn good.
> > > > > > So for those of you wanting to convert prints that you
> have on hand,
> > > don't
> > > > > overlook flatbed scanning, you don't need that $5000.00
> scanner to
> > > produce
> > > > > great looking work.
> > > > > > I'm printing b&w with a 1280, CIS and MIS 6 color dyes
> on LPM.
> > > > > > David Aschkenas
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> Bookmarks, Polls
> > > and
> > > > > other resources as they are often being updated. The
> page is at:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to
> > > keep
> > > > > them short.
> > > > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change
> the subject
> > > header.
> > > > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or
> > > "flames."
> > > > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > > > - Before posting a question, search the message
> archives and the
> > > various
> > > > > resources on the homepage.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> Bookmarks, Polls and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is
> at:
> > > >
> > > >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > >
> > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > > them short.
> > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
> subject header.
> > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or "flames."
> > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives
> and the various
> > > resources on the homepage.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Gerry,

It is true that I can get great detail out of my 4800 dpi scanner.  
The problem is that I cannot do the, at times, extreme burning 
and dodging that some of my prints need.  In photoshop, I can't 
burn a bright area to dark without introducing too much noise.

Also, a scan from a print can look smoother, more creamy in 
side by side comparisons.  I'm a people photographer so that is 
a plus.  If it is an Andreas Gursky style image, stick with the neg 
scanner.

Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> But don't you have a detail problem?  No print can hold a tenth 
the detail of film!
> 
> I know you can get good scans IF you have a perfect print, but 
you'd still be losing a lot of detail, no?
> 
> Jerry
> 
> culturalvisions wrote:
> 
> > I don't think we should automatically assume that a negative
> > scanner makes a better inkjet print than a flatbed scan from 
a
> > glossy silver print.
> >
> > See Ralph Gibson's interview in the Feb. Shutterbug for his
> > support of flatbed scanning.
> >
> > My pro scanner friend with a Scitek scanner is always telling 
me
> > to bring him prints rather than negs as he can do a better job
> > with them.
> >
> > My own experience with a Minolta Pro indicates that my little
> > Epson flatbed 636 makes better scans from b/w prints than 
the
> > $3000 Minolta can do from the same 6X7 and 645 negatives.
> > The negative scanner introduces too much grain aliasing 
into
> > the equation.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "dellaellingson"
> > <dellaellingson@y...> wrote:
> > > Thanks Martin.
> > >
> > > -Della
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > Della,
> > > >
> > > > Check out both these sites. Especially the second one as
> > this gives some of
> > > > the workflow.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.lenswork.com/index2.html
> > > >
> > > > http://www.danburkholder.com/
> > > >
> > > > If you give any of this a try, please share your 
experiences. I
> > would like
> > > > to more than just inkjet info on the list.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "dellaellingson" <dellaellingson@y...>
> > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:15 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Martin,
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you have the web address for Lenswork's Special
> > Editions? I am
> > > > interested to know more about this.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Della
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin 
Wesley"
> > > > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > > > David,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Scanning prints is a legit method of getting your 
photos
> > into digital
> > > > form.
> > > > > > The "Special Edition" silver fiber prints sold by 
Lenswork
> > are produce
> > > > using
> > > > > > this method (although I believe they use a drum
> > scanner). The selected
> > > > > > prints are scanned and the resulting file is output on 
a
> > 3600 dpi image
> > > > > > setter to make contact negatives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The results are excellent and I cannot distinguish 
them
> > from an enlarged
> > > > > > silver print. I have a Jay Dussard and a Bruce 
Barnbaum
> > print. Excellent
> > > > > > prints. Anyone wanting to produce silver prints from 
their
> > digital files
> > > > > > should check this out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Having said all that I would still recommend that
> > scanning the original
> > > > > > negatives as the best way to reduce the number of
> > reproduction steps,
> > > > since
> > > > > > there is lose of information each time an image is
> > duplicated. The loss,
> > > > as
> > > > > > you say, may be so small that it is not noticeable. You
> > would really
> > > > have to
> > > > > > do a side-by-side of finished prints produced by both
> > methods to know
> > > > for
> > > > > > sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Martin Wesley
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: <daschkenas@a...>
> > > > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:30 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > With all of the talk about film scanners, thought I 
would
> > share what
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > doing.  I've been flatbed scanning b&w prints ,( from 
the
> > past 25 years)
> > > > > > with a UMAX Mirage SEII, both 8x10 and 11x14 inch 
prints
> > as it will scan
> > > > > > print sizes up to 12 x 17.  I am scanning so that I print 
at a
> > minimum
> > > > of
> > > > > > 300 dpi.  I'm making mostly 15 inch wide prints, from
> > prints done in
> > > > various
> > > > > > formats thru the years, 35mm, 2,1/4, and 4x5 & 8x10
> > contact prints... I
> > > > am
> > > > > > getting, which I believe, is great quality.  In most 
cases I
> > like the
> > > > inkjet
> > > > > > print better than the original, and I am a very good wet
> > print maker.
> > > > > > People are telling me that I am sacrificing quality by
> > scanning prints,
> > > > but
> > > > > > quite frankly I know that should be the case, but I can't
> > imagine seeing
> > > > any
> > > > > > more detail in the print than I am seeing now. ( I sent 
a
> > few prints to
> > > > > > Jerry Olson to view and I don't believe that he would 
have
> > known the
> > > > prints
> > > > > > were done by scanning a print rather than a negative.)
> > > > > > > It is much easier for me to access the prints rather 
than
> > search thru
> > > > 25
> > > > > > years worth of negatives, which is the main reason 
I'm
> > doing it this
> > > > way,
> > > > > > also, tho because the prints look so darn good.
> > > > > > > So for those of you wanting to convert prints that you
> > have on hand,
> > > > don't
> > > > > > overlook flatbed scanning, you don't need that 
$5000.00
> > scanner to
> > > > produce
> > > > > > great looking work.
> > > > > > > I'm printing b&w with a 1280, CIS and MIS 6 color 
dyes
> > on LPM.
> > > > > > > David Aschkenas
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the 
Files,
> > Bookmarks, Polls
> > > > and
> > > > > > other resources as they are often being updated. The
> > page is at:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have 
one.
> > > > > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of 
earlier
> > messages to
> > > > keep
> > > > > > them short.
> > > > > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to 
change
> > the subject
> > > > header.
> > > > > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No 
personal
> > attacks or
> > > > "flames."
> > > > > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > > > > - Before posting a question, search the message
> > archives and the
> > > > various
> > > > > > resources on the homepage.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> > Bookmarks, Polls and
> > > > other resources as they are often being updated. The 
page is
> > at:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > > >
> > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> > messages to keep
> > > > them short.
> > > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change 
the
> > subject header.
> > > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> > attacks or "flames."
> > > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > > - Before posting a question, search the message 
archives
> > and the various
> > > > resources on the homepage.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

The only (potential) problem here is the quality of the print (person
printing?). If one were able to get all of the information from the neg
onto the print, that would be great. 
However, a long time ago when I took a Yosemite Workshop with Ansel
Adams, he said that a very good printer (were talking about people here,
not machines) with an excellent negative could produce a print with 72
discernable tones from black to white.
Given that we are working with 256 values in the digital form and that a
good scanner can produce a very wide tonal range, I am wondering about
the comparison of print v negative scanning.
Personally, I can produce an inkjet print from a film scan that is
superior (i.e. subtle detail in highlight and shadows) to a silver print
from the same neg. I consider myself (pat on back here) a pretty good
silver printer but since I've gone digital, I haven't made a silver
print.the inkjet stuff is too good.
 
Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
 
215 751-8320
 <mailto:sshire@...> sshire@...

-----Original Message-----
From: culturalvisions [mailto:frank@...] 
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 11:01 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
 
I don't think we should automatically assume that a negative 
scanner makes a better inkjet print than a flatbed scan from a 
glossy silver print.

See Ralph Gibson's interview in the Feb. Shutterbug for his 
support of flatbed scanning.  

My pro scanner friend with a Scitek scanner is always telling me 
to bring him prints rather than negs as he can do a better job 
with them.

My own experience with a Minolta Pro indicates that my little 
Epson flatbed 636 makes better scans from b/w prints than the 
$3000 Minolta can do from the same 6X7 and 645 negatives.  
The negative scanner introduces too much grain aliasing into 
the equation.

Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "dellaellingson" 
<dellaellingson@y...> wrote:
> Thanks Martin.
> 
> -Della 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Della,
> > 
> > Check out both these sites. Especially the second one as 
this gives some of
> > the workflow.
> > 
> > http://www.lenswork.com/index2.html
> > 
> > http://www.danburkholder.com/
> > 
> > If you give any of this a try, please share your experiences. I 
would like
> > to more than just inkjet info on the list.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Martin
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dellaellingson" <dellaellingson@y...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> > 
> > 
> > > Martin,
> > >
> > > Do you have the web address for Lenswork's Special 
Editions? I am
> > interested to know more about this.
> > >
> > > -Della
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > > Scanning prints is a legit method of getting your photos 
into digital
> > form.
> > > > The "Special Edition" silver fiber prints sold by Lenswork 
are produce
> > using
> > > > this method (although I believe they use a drum 
scanner). The selected
> > > > prints are scanned and the resulting file is output on a 
3600 dpi image
> > > > setter to make contact negatives.
> > > >
> > > > The results are excellent and I cannot distinguish them 
from an enlarged
> > > > silver print. I have a Jay Dussard and a Bruce Barnbaum 
print. Excellent
> > > > prints. Anyone wanting to produce silver prints from their 
digital files
> > > > should check this out.
> > > >
> > > > Having said all that I would still recommend that 
scanning the original
> > > > negatives as the best way to reduce the number of 
reproduction steps,
> > since
> > > > there is lose of information each time an image is 
duplicated. The loss,
> > as
> > > > you say, may be so small that it is not noticeable. You 
would really
> > have to
> > > > do a side-by-side of finished prints produced by both 
methods to know
> > for
> > > > sure.
> > > >
> > > > Martin Wesley
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <daschkenas@a...>
> > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:30 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Flatbed scanning b&w prints
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > With all of the talk about film scanners, thought I would 
share what
> > I'm
> > > > doing.  I've been flatbed scanning b&w prints ,( from the 
past 25 years)
> > > > with a UMAX Mirage SEII, both 8x10 and 11x14 inch prints 
as it will scan
> > > > print sizes up to 12 x 17.  I am scanning so that I print at a 
minimum
> > of
> > > > 300 dpi.  I'm making mostly 15 inch wide prints, from 
prints done in
> > various
> > > > formats thru the years, 35mm, 2,1/4, and 4x5 & 8x10 
contact prints... I
> > am
> > > > getting, which I believe, is great quality.  In most cases I 
like the
> > inkjet
> > > > print better than the original, and I am a very good wet 
print maker.
> > > > People are telling me that I am sacrificing quality by 
scanning prints,
> > but
> > > > quite frankly I know that should be the case, but I can't 
imagine seeing
> > any
> > > > more detail in the print than I am seeing now. ( I sent a 
few prints to
> > > > Jerry Olson to view and I don't believe that he would have 
known the
> > prints
> > > > were done by scanning a print rather than a negative.)
> > > > > It is much easier for me to access the prints rather than 
search thru
> > 25
> > > > years worth of negatives, which is the main reason I'm 
doing it this
> > way,
> > > > also, tho because the prints look so darn good.
> > > > > So for those of you wanting to convert prints that you 
have on hand,
> > don't
> > > > overlook flatbed scanning, you don't need that $5000.00 
scanner to
> > produce
> > > > great looking work.
> > > > > I'm printing b&w with a 1280, CIS and MIS 6 color dyes 
on LPM.
> > > > > David Aschkenas
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls
> > and
> > > > other resources as they are often being updated. The 
page is at:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > > >
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> > "flames."
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archives and the
> > various
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> > >
> > > 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
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Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service. 


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