Digital BW, The Print

HI everyone-

Thought I should give you all an update on my research on possible 
new homes for the list/forum. 

The first thing I am finding out is that it is important to know if 
we need to remain a "list" with web access or whether we want to 
become a true forum, a web based community without the mailing list. 

I personally have always used the web, finding the email either 
overwhelming (if individual emails) or confusing if digests (and not 
too timely), but I see from many comments that a lot of us are email 
list users. If this is to overcome the ad problem (as many have 
indicated), some of the homes I've found may be suitable...if "list" 
remeains important, there will only be one alternative.

My view is that the technolgoy of DPReview and RobGalbraith.com are 
the best two platforms supporting content that is close enough to 
ours to consider a "merger".

check them out, if you like:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/  (click on enter forums)
http://www.dpreview.com/  (click on forums)

They both have a nice look and clean features that help you by 
threading and summarizing, etc. DP Review responded that they just 
wouldn't have time to transfer our archives. Rob Galbraith said the 
archives would only be possible to transfer to his server if they 
were importable to the Ultimat Bulletin Board infrastructure, which 
he thought was unlikely.

I also checked with both the moderator and the membership of the 
Nikon D1 Users Group forum, a self hosted forum. I think we could 
work out a merger there...this is a terrific platform as well... but 
it does not support the mailing list.

Check this one out: http://www.nikond1.net/

This left 2 alternatives that I am aware of. First would be to 
establish a USENET news group and this is a real possiblity. Google 
now has a very slick interface for newsgroup reading and responding. 
It's not quite as customized as Yahoo groups, but its fast, its free 
and there are no ads whatever.

See an example of this: http://groups.google.com/groups?
hl=en&group=rec.photo.digital  (if this link doesn't work because 
it's on two lines, go to google groups and enter rec.photo.digital in 
the search box). 

Finally, a member of the Nikon D1 Users forum contacted me and 
expressed and interest in helping us start one from scratch "I have 
the server, the knowledge, and the connection. What I need is time to 
manage it. If you want to co-host it, we could probably put this 
together ourselves." 

I don't know if we have anyone here who has the time to step up and 
manage a forum (I don't even know how much time it would take). I 
assume this is not the case or we wouldn't be in Yahoo now???

There is one other option. It has been mentioned on the list. That 
would be to pay Yahoo not to be in an ad environment. I haven't 
checked out this cost. I would be willing to contribute to it, but 
this is probably something that would be "safer" for the list to be 
in some corporate hands. Maybe we should/could approach Epson or and 
ink or paper manufacturer to buy sponsorships?

Well... looking forward to feedback and new direction... if any... 

Tom O'Connell
TomOC@...

I too find the new, intrusive, Yahoo advertising very irritating.  

If this list does gravitate to another place, make sure Yahoo 
understand why.  Some advertising is clearly necessary, but I think 
it has now gone way too far.  Maybe it is not too late to get Yahoo 
to change.
--
Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <tomoc@y...> wrote:
> HI everyone-
> 
> Thought I should give you all an update on my research on possible 
> new homes for the list/forum. 
> 
> The first thing I am finding out is that it is important to know if 
> we need to remain a "list" with web access or whether we want to 
> become a true forum, a web based community without the mailing 
list. 
> 
> I personally have always used the web, finding the email either 
> overwhelming (if individual emails) or confusing if digests (and 
not 
> too timely), but I see from many comments that a lot of us are 
email 
> list users. If this is to overcome the ad problem (as many have 
> indicated), some of the homes I've found may be 
suitable...if "list" 
> remeains important, there will only be one alternative.
> 
> My view is that the technolgoy of DPReview and RobGalbraith.com are 
> the best two platforms supporting content that is close enough to 
> ours to consider a "merger".
> 
> check them out, if you like:
> 
> http://www.robgalbraith.com/  (click on enter forums)
> http://www.dpreview.com/  (click on forums)
> 
> They both have a nice look and clean features that help you by 
> threading and summarizing, etc. DP Review responded that they just 
> wouldn't have time to transfer our archives. Rob Galbraith said the 
> archives would only be possible to transfer to his server if they 
> were importable to the Ultimat Bulletin Board infrastructure, which 
> he thought was unlikely.
> 
> I also checked with both the moderator and the membership of the 
> Nikon D1 Users Group forum, a self hosted forum. I think we could 
> work out a merger there...this is a terrific platform as well... 
but 
> it does not support the mailing list.
> 
> Check this one out: http://www.nikond1.net/
> 
> This left 2 alternatives that I am aware of. First would be to 
> establish a USENET news group and this is a real possiblity. Google 
> now has a very slick interface for newsgroup reading and 
responding. 
> It's not quite as customized as Yahoo groups, but its fast, its 
free 
> and there are no ads whatever.
> 
> See an example of this: http://groups.google.com/groups?
> hl=en&group=rec.photo.digital  (if this link doesn't work because 
> it's on two lines, go to google groups and enter rec.photo.digital 
in 
> the search box). 
> 
> Finally, a member of the Nikon D1 Users forum contacted me and 
> expressed and interest in helping us start one from scratch "I have 
> the server, the knowledge, and the connection. What I need is time 
to 
> manage it. If you want to co-host it, we could probably put this 
> together ourselves." 
> 
> I don't know if we have anyone here who has the time to step up and 
> manage a forum (I don't even know how much time it would take). I 
> assume this is not the case or we wouldn't be in Yahoo now???
> 
> There is one other option. It has been mentioned on the list. That 
> would be to pay Yahoo not to be in an ad environment. I haven't 
> checked out this cost. I would be willing to contribute to it, but 
> this is probably something that would be "safer" for the list to be 
> in some corporate hands. Maybe we should/could approach Epson or 
and 

> ink or paper manufacturer to buy sponsorships?
> 
> Well... looking forward to feedback and new direction... if any... 
> 
> Tom O'Connell
> TomOC@y...

> Thought I should give you all an update on my research on possible
> new homes for the list/forum.

This is the first I've heard of this.  Apparently I missed the reasons for
why this list should consider moving...perhaps you can re-state them?

Austin

Austin-

Over the past three months there have been a few outbursts here about 
the obnoxious popup ads and "click-through" ads that Yahoo inserted 
to the web flavor of our forum (if you are using email in text 
format, you will not be at all aware of it).

I wouldn't even go so far as to say we should CONSIDER MOVING yet. I 
think we are still in the stage of "are there other options?"

Maybe Antonis or Martin know what percentage of the list is email and 
what percent is web based? 

In any event, I volunteered to do a survey of options and hence the 
report posted last night.

It would seem there is not a totally perfect free solution... so we 
need to weigh the plusses and minuses, as it were...

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin" 
<darkroom@i...> wrote:
> 
> > Thought I should give you all an update on my research on possible
> > new homes for the list/forum.
> 
> This is the first I've heard of this.  Apparently I missed the 
reasons for
> why this list should consider moving...perhaps you can re-state 
them?
> 
> Austin

Tom-

I agree with you, that www.dpreview.com has the absolute *best* 
forum style on the web. I like being able to instantly see the 
original post, and all the corresponding replies in one place. 
Without having to go searching through all of the archives to see 
all posts.

Just as an FYI, there is a widely used dicussion technology called 
Discus. Here is the link:

http://www.discusware.com/discus/index.php

Good functionality, but it comes down to the logistics of moving the 
historical posts to any new format.

Tom,

First of all thank you for spending so much time looking into this. To
answer Austin's question , a move is being considered because as the list
has grown in membership so has the Yahoo advertising. The advertising has
become particularly annoying to those who access the group directly with
their browser.

To answer your major question, a quick review of the membership settings
indicate that there is about a 50/50 split between those who do and those
who don't receive the posts by e-mail or digest. So there really does need
to be both and the e-mail side needs to provide daily and weekly digests.

On line access should provide the ability to view messages by date (my
personal method of checking the group) and by thread. We are also using the
Files, Bookmarks, Database and Polls features of the group homepage.

I have a backup of all the posted messages on my computer as *.elm films and
a new site must be able to import all 9700 in mass and reconcile duplicate
file names.

The other issue is that the hosting organization needs to be large, stable
and likely to be around a long time. Yahoo has it's faults but it does have
a huge amount of hardware and staff to keep it running and backed up.

All together this is a very tall order.

As far as running a forum goes, it has taken far more of my time than I
anticipated at the beginning. If you add to that the technical side of
setting up software, maintaining a server, do back-ups, etc. the time
investment would be huge.

The best solution would be to get Yahoo to modify their advertising on line
either by persuasion. I have left voice mail with Yahoo and sent an e-mail
about purchasing the ad space. Hopefully I will get a reply as this would be
the easiest solution to our problems (assuming they don't want a huge sum of
money!) If we do pay for this it would need to be done by the members as one
of our founding principles is to be free of any connection to a company
involved in selling products for digital printing.

Once again thank you for your research!

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "tomoc" <tomoc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:39 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home


> HI everyone-
>
> Thought I should give you all an update on my research on possible
> new homes for the list/forum.
>
> The first thing I am finding out is that it is important to know if
> we need to remain a "list" with web access or whether we want to
> become a true forum, a web based community without the mailing list.
>
> I personally have always used the web, finding the email either
> overwhelming (if individual emails) or confusing if digests (and not
> too timely), but I see from many comments that a lot of us are email
> list users. If this is to overcome the ad problem (as many have
> indicated), some of the homes I've found may be suitable...if "list"
> remeains important, there will only be one alternative.
>
> My view is that the technolgoy of DPReview and RobGalbraith.com are
> the best two platforms supporting content that is close enough to
> ours to consider a "merger".
>
> check them out, if you like:
>
> http://www.robgalbraith.com/  (click on enter forums)
> http://www.dpreview.com/  (click on forums)
>
> They both have a nice look and clean features that help you by
> threading and summarizing, etc. DP Review responded that they just
> wouldn't have time to transfer our archives. Rob Galbraith said the
> archives would only be possible to transfer to his server if they
> were importable to the Ultimat Bulletin Board infrastructure, which
> he thought was unlikely.
>
> I also checked with both the moderator and the membership of the
> Nikon D1 Users Group forum, a self hosted forum. I think we could
> work out a merger there...this is a terrific platform as well... but
> it does not support the mailing list.
>
> Check this one out: http://www.nikond1.net/
>
> This left 2 alternatives that I am aware of. First would be to
> establish a USENET news group and this is a real possiblity. Google
> now has a very slick interface for newsgroup reading and responding.
> It's not quite as customized as Yahoo groups, but its fast, its free
> and there are no ads whatever.
>
> See an example of this: http://groups.google.com/groups?
> hl=en&group=rec.photo.digital  (if this link doesn't work because
> it's on two lines, go to google groups and enter rec.photo.digital in
> the search box).
>
> Finally, a member of the Nikon D1 Users forum contacted me and
> expressed and interest in helping us start one from scratch "I have
> the server, the knowledge, and the connection. What I need is time to
> manage it. If you want to co-host it, we could probably put this
> together ourselves."
>
> I don't know if we have anyone here who has the time to step up and
> manage a forum (I don't even know how much time it would take). I
> assume this is not the case or we wouldn't be in Yahoo now???
>
> There is one other option. It has been mentioned on the list. That
> would be to pay Yahoo not to be in an ad environment. I haven't
> checked out this cost. I would be willing to contribute to it, but
> this is probably something that would be "safer" for the list to be
> in some corporate hands. Maybe we should/could approach Epson or and
> ink or paper manufacturer to buy sponsorships?
>
> Well... looking forward to feedback and new direction... if any...
>
> Tom O'Connell
> TomOC@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin and Group-

Given the 50/50 email/web split of our membership, my advice is to 
stay where we are for now. I can't find a solution that has the 
features we need. The closest is to take a step back in time and 
become a USENET group... probably not a great idea.

I, for one, would gladly contribute to a fund to remove the intrusive 
advertising. Yahoo is nuts...this whole episode has totally soured me 
on them as a company. The seem to have only AOL as a role model and 
at least AOL provides reliable web connections along with the 
annoyances <g>.


Let us know if Yahoo ever responds...

thanks,

Tom O'Connell



-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> First of all thank you for spending so much time looking into this. 
To
> answer Austin's question , a move is being considered because as 
the list
> has grown in membership so has the Yahoo advertising. The 
advertising has
> become particularly annoying to those who access the group directly 
with
> their browser.
> 
> To answer your major question, a quick review of the membership 
settings
> indicate that there is about a 50/50 split between those who do and 
those
> who don't receive the posts by e-mail or digest. So there really 
does need
> to be both and the e-mail side needs to provide daily and weekly 
digests.
> 
> On line access should provide the ability to view messages by date 
(my
> personal method of checking the group) and by thread. We are also 
using the
> Files, Bookmarks, Database and Polls features of the group homepage.
> 
> I have a backup of all the posted messages on my computer as *.elm 
films and
> a new site must be able to import all 9700 in mass and reconcile 
duplicate
> file names.
> 
> The other issue is that the hosting organization needs to be large, 
stable
> and likely to be around a long time. Yahoo has it's faults but it 
does have
> a huge amount of hardware and staff to keep it running and backed 
up.
> 
> All together this is a very tall order.
> 
> As far as running a forum goes, it has taken far more of my time 
than I
> anticipated at the beginning. If you add to that the technical side 
of
> setting up software, maintaining a server, do back-ups, etc. the 
time
> investment would be huge.
> 
> The best solution would be to get Yahoo to modify their advertising 
on line
> either by persuasion. I have left voice mail with Yahoo and sent an 
e-mail
> about purchasing the ad space. Hopefully I will get a reply as this 
would be
> the easiest solution to our problems (assuming they don't want a 
huge sum of
> money!) If we do pay for this it would need to be done by the 
members as one
> of our founding principles is to be free of any connection to a 
company
> involved in selling products for digital printing.
> 
> Once again thank you for your research!
> 
> Martin
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tomoc" <tomoc@y...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:39 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home
> 
> 
> > HI everyone-
> >
> > Thought I should give you all an update on my research on possible
> > new homes for the list/forum.
> >
> > The first thing I am finding out is that it is important to know 
if
> > we need to remain a "list" with web access or whether we want to
> > become a true forum, a web based community without the mailing 
list.
> >
> > I personally have always used the web, finding the email either
> > overwhelming (if individual emails) or confusing if digests (and 
not
> > too timely), but I see from many comments that a lot of us are 
email
> > list users. If this is to overcome the ad problem (as many have
> > indicated), some of the homes I've found may be 
suitable...if "list"
> > remeains important, there will only be one alternative.
> >
> > My view is that the technolgoy of DPReview and RobGalbraith.com 
are
> > the best two platforms supporting content that is close enough to
> > ours to consider a "merger".
> >
> > check them out, if you like:
> >
> > http://www.robgalbraith.com/  (click on enter forums)
> > http://www.dpreview.com/  (click on forums)
> >
> > They both have a nice look and clean features that help you by
> > threading and summarizing, etc. DP Review responded that they just
> > wouldn't have time to transfer our archives. Rob Galbraith said 
the
> > archives would only be possible to transfer to his server if they
> > were importable to the Ultimat Bulletin Board infrastructure, 
which
> > he thought was unlikely.
> >
> > I also checked with both the moderator and the membership of the
> > Nikon D1 Users Group forum, a self hosted forum. I think we could
> > work out a merger there...this is a terrific platform as well... 
but
> > it does not support the mailing list.
> >
> > Check this one out: http://www.nikond1.net/
> >
> > This left 2 alternatives that I am aware of. First would be to
> > establish a USENET news group and this is a real possiblity. 
Google
> > now has a very slick interface for newsgroup reading and 
responding.
> > It's not quite as customized as Yahoo groups, but its fast, its 
free
> > and there are no ads whatever.
> >
> > See an example of this: http://groups.google.com/groups?
> > hl=en&group=rec.photo.digital  (if this link doesn't work because
> > it's on two lines, go to google groups and enter 
rec.photo.digital in
> > the search box).
> >
> > Finally, a member of the Nikon D1 Users forum contacted me and
> > expressed and interest in helping us start one from scratch "I 
have
> > the server, the knowledge, and the connection. What I need is 
time to
> > manage it. If you want to co-host it, we could probably put this
> > together ourselves."
> >
> > I don't know if we have anyone here who has the time to step up 
and
> > manage a forum (I don't even know how much time it would take). I
> > assume this is not the case or we wouldn't be in Yahoo now???
> >
> > There is one other option. It has been mentioned on the list. That
> > would be to pay Yahoo not to be in an ad environment. I haven't
> > checked out this cost. I would be willing to contribute to it, but
> > this is probably something that would be "safer" for the list to 
be
> > in some corporate hands. Maybe we should/could approach Epson or 
and
> > ink or paper manufacturer to buy sponsorships?
> >
> > Well... looking forward to feedback and new direction... if any...
> >
> > Tom O'Connell
> > TomOC@y...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

While I am one of the 50% that receive emails from this forum, I believe the forum would be better hosted at DPreview.com as an example.  There the reading of threads by subject is easy, and there is a large audience of digital camera users (the future users of digital black and white) so the "reach" of the forum could be expanded.  I also like the ability of that forum to have links for images and embedded images too.  That could prove very useful and fast for users of the forum who like to "see" as well as read.  

I have no complaints about this forum (I read the many emails everyday) but I do think the other forum software (hosting at dpreview) would be beneficial (it would also allow me to limit my emails to essential correspondance) so I heartily suggest the move.  

As for the forum archives.....it seems rare that anyone reads them now anyway.  So...if there are good items that should be moved to a new home...just move the best...and link back to this forum for past threads for those interested.  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: tomoc 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 2:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home


  Martin and Group-

  Given the 50/50 email/web split of our membership, my advice is to 
  stay where we are for now. I can't find a solution that has the 
  features we need. The closest is to take a step back in time and 
  become a USENET group... probably not a great idea.

  I, for one, would gladly contribute to a fund to remove the intrusive 
  advertising. Yahoo is nuts...this whole episode has totally soured me 
  on them as a company. The seem to have only AOL as a role model and 
  at least AOL provides reliable web connections along with the 
  annoyances <g>.


  Let us know if Yahoo ever responds...

  thanks,

  Tom O'Connell



  -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
  <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
  > Tom,
  > 
  > First of all thank you for spending so much time looking into this. 
  To
  > answer Austin's question , a move is being considered because as 
  the list
  > has grown in membership so has the Yahoo advertising. The 
  advertising has
  > become particularly annoying to those who access the group directly 
  with
  > their browser.
  > 
  > To answer your major question, a quick review of the membership 
  settings
  > indicate that there is about a 50/50 split between those who do and 
  those
  > who don't receive the posts by e-mail or digest. So there really 
  does need
  > to be both and the e-mail side needs to provide daily and weekly 
  digests.
  > 
  > On line access should provide the ability to view messages by date 
  (my
  > personal method of checking the group) and by thread. We are also 
  using the
  > Files, Bookmarks, Database and Polls features of the group homepage.
  > 
  > I have a backup of all the posted messages on my computer as *.elm 
  films and
  > a new site must be able to import all 9700 in mass and reconcile 
  duplicate
  > file names.
  > 
  > The other issue is that the hosting organization needs to be large, 
  stable
  > and likely to be around a long time. Yahoo has it's faults but it 
  does have
  > a huge amount of hardware and staff to keep it running and backed 
  up.
  > 
  > All together this is a very tall order.
  > 
  > As far as running a forum goes, it has taken far more of my time 
  than I
  > anticipated at the beginning. If you add to that the technical side 
  of
  > setting up software, maintaining a server, do back-ups, etc. the 
  time
  > investment would be huge.
  > 
  > The best solution would be to get Yahoo to modify their advertising 
  on line
  > either by persuasion. I have left voice mail with Yahoo and sent an 
  e-mail
  > about purchasing the ad space. Hopefully I will get a reply as this 
  would be
  > the easiest solution to our problems (assuming they don't want a 
  huge sum of
  > money!) If we do pay for this it would need to be done by the 
  members as one
  > of our founding principles is to be free of any connection to a 
  company
  > involved in selling products for digital printing.
  > 
  > Once again thank you for your research!
  > 
  > Martin
  > 
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "tomoc" <tomoc@y...>
  > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
  > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:39 PM
  > Subject: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home
  > 
  > 
  > > HI everyone-
  > >
  > > Thought I should give you all an update on my research on possible
  > > new homes for the list/forum.
  > >
  > > The first thing I am finding out is that it is important to know 
  if
  > > we need to remain a "list" with web access or whether we want to
  > > become a true forum, a web based community without the mailing 
  list.
  > >
  > > I personally have always used the web, finding the email either
  > > overwhelming (if individual emails) or confusing if digests (and 
  not
  > > too timely), but I see from many comments that a lot of us are 
  email
  > > list users. If this is to overcome the ad problem (as many have
  > > indicated), some of the homes I've found may be 
  suitable...if "list"
  > > remeains important, there will only be one alternative.
  > >
  > > My view is that the technolgoy of DPReview and RobGalbraith.com 
  are
  > > the best two platforms supporting content that is close enough to
  > > ours to consider a "merger".
  > >
  > > check them out, if you like:
  > >
  > > http://www.robgalbraith.com/  (click on enter forums)
  > > http://www.dpreview.com/  (click on forums)
  > >
  > > They both have a nice look and clean features that help you by
  > > threading and summarizing, etc. DP Review responded that they just
  > > wouldn't have time to transfer our archives. Rob Galbraith said 
  the
  > > archives would only be possible to transfer to his server if they
  > > were importable to the Ultimat Bulletin Board infrastructure, 
  which
  > > he thought was unlikely.
  > >
  > > I also checked with both the moderator and the membership of the
  > > Nikon D1 Users Group forum, a self hosted forum. I think we could
  > > work out a merger there...this is a terrific platform as well... 
  but
  > > it does not support the mailing list.
  > >
  > > Check this one out: http://www.nikond1.net/
  > >
  > > This left 2 alternatives that I am aware of. First would be to
  > > establish a USENET news group and this is a real possiblity. 
  Google
  > > now has a very slick interface for newsgroup reading and 
  responding.
  > > It's not quite as customized as Yahoo groups, but its fast, its 
  free
  > > and there are no ads whatever.
  > >
  > > See an example of this: http://groups.google.com/groups?
  > > hl=en&group=rec.photo.digital  (if this link doesn't work because
  > > it's on two lines, go to google groups and enter 
  rec.photo.digital in
  > > the search box).
  > >
  > > Finally, a member of the Nikon D1 Users forum contacted me and
  > > expressed and interest in helping us start one from scratch "I 
  have
  > > the server, the knowledge, and the connection. What I need is 
  time to
  > > manage it. If you want to co-host it, we could probably put this
  > > together ourselves."
  > >
  > > I don't know if we have anyone here who has the time to step up 
  and
  > > manage a forum (I don't even know how much time it would take). I
  > > assume this is not the case or we wouldn't be in Yahoo now???
  > >
  > > There is one other option. It has been mentioned on the list. That
  > > would be to pay Yahoo not to be in an ad environment. I haven't
  > > checked out this cost. I would be willing to contribute to it, but
  > > this is probably something that would be "safer" for the list to 
  be
  > > in some corporate hands. Maybe we should/could approach Epson or 
  and
  > > ink or paper manufacturer to buy sponsorships?
  > >
  > > Well... looking forward to feedback and new direction... if any...
  > >
  > > Tom O'Connell
  > > TomOC@y...
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
  Polls and
  > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  > >
  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > >
  > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > > - Include your full name with your message.
  > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
  messages to keep
  > them short.
  > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
  header.
  > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
  or "flames."
  > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
  various
  > resources on the homepage.
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  > >
  > >
  > >


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman-

I fear you may be one of the few email users willing to switch... I'm 
ok with that... but at the risk of starting a flame, it *does* seem 
awfully "80's" not to move to a web solution that can evolve <g>.

I hadn't thought that we could move files and link back for 
archives... might work. Certainly after a while, it wouldn't get much 
use, but I guess yahoo isn't throwing us out and would just see less 
traffic, but they seem to be willing to put any page up if they can 
charge an advertiser, so I suspect we could keep the archives on 
those terms virutally forever.

I'm for it, but not if there is any serious reluctance to abandon 
email. There is a great chemistry and mix of experise and personality 
here... if email is the glue, I'm for that.

Tom O'Connell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> While I am one of the 50% that receive emails from this forum, I 
believe the forum would be better hosted at DPreview.com as an 
example.  There the reading of threads by subject is easy, and there 
is a large audience of digital camera users (the future users of 
digital black and white) so the "reach" of the forum could be 
expanded.  I also like the ability of that forum to have links for 
images and embedded images too.  That could prove very useful and 
fast for users of the forum who like to "see" as well as read.  
> 
> I have no complaints about this forum (I read the many emails 
everyday) but I do think the other forum software (hosting at 
dpreview) would be beneficial (it would also allow me to limit my 
emails to essential correspondance) so I heartily suggest the move.  
> 
> As for the forum archives.....it seems rare that anyone reads them 
now anyway.  So...if there are good items that should be moved to a 
new home...just move the best...and link back to this forum for past 
threads for those interested.  
> 
> Steadman
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: tomoc 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 2:25 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum 
home
> 
> 
>   Martin and Group-
> 
>   Given the 50/50 email/web split of our membership, my advice is 
to 
>   stay where we are for now. I can't find a solution that has the 
>   features we need. The closest is to take a step back in time and 
>   become a USENET group... probably not a great idea.
> 
>   I, for one, would gladly contribute to a fund to remove the 
intrusive 
>   advertising. Yahoo is nuts...this whole episode has totally 
soured me 
>   on them as a company. The seem to have only AOL as a role model 
and 
>   at least AOL provides reliable web connections along with the 
>   annoyances <g>.
> 
> 
>   Let us know if Yahoo ever responds...
> 
>   thanks,
> 
>   Tom O'Connell
> 
> 
> 
>   -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
>   <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
>   > Tom,
>   > 
>   > First of all thank you for spending so much time looking into 
this. 
>   To
>   > answer Austin's question , a move is being considered because 
as 
>   the list
>   > has grown in membership so has the Yahoo advertising. The 
>   advertising has
>   > become particularly annoying to those who access the group 
directly 
>   with
>   > their browser.
>   > 
>   > To answer your major question, a quick review of the membership 
>   settings
>   > indicate that there is about a 50/50 split between those who do 
and 
>   those
>   > who don't receive the posts by e-mail or digest. So there 
really 
>   does need
>   > to be both and the e-mail side needs to provide daily and 
weekly 
>   digests.
>   > 
>   > On line access should provide the ability to view messages by 
date 
>   (my
>   > personal method of checking the group) and by thread. We are 
also 
>   using the
>   > Files, Bookmarks, Database and Polls features of the group 
homepage.
>   > 
>   > I have a backup of all the posted messages on my computer as 
*.elm 
>   films and
>   > a new site must be able to import all 9700 in mass and 
reconcile 
>   duplicate
>   > file names.
>   > 
>   > The other issue is that the hosting organization needs to be 
large, 
>   stable
>   > and likely to be around a long time. Yahoo has it's faults but 
it 
>   does have
>   > a huge amount of hardware and staff to keep it running and 
backed 
>   up.
>   > 
>   > All together this is a very tall order.
>   > 
>   > As far as running a forum goes, it has taken far more of my 
time 
>   than I
>   > anticipated at the beginning. If you add to that the technical 
side 
>   of
>   > setting up software, maintaining a server, do back-ups, etc. 
the 
>   time
>   > investment would be huge.
>   > 
>   > The best solution would be to get Yahoo to modify their 
advertising 
>   on line
>   > either by persuasion. I have left voice mail with Yahoo and 
sent an 
>   e-mail
>   > about purchasing the ad space. Hopefully I will get a reply as 
this 
>   would be
>   > the easiest solution to our problems (assuming they don't want 
a 
>   huge sum of
>   > money!) If we do pay for this it would need to be done by the 
>   members as one
>   > of our founding principles is to be free of any connection to a 
>   company
>   > involved in selling products for digital printing.
>   > 
>   > Once again thank you for your research!
>   > 
>   > Martin
>   > 
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: "tomoc" <tomoc@y...>
>   > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
>   > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:39 PM
>   > Subject: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home
>   > 
>   > 
>   > > HI everyone-
>   > >
>   > > Thought I should give you all an update on my research on 
possible
>   > > new homes for the list/forum.
>   > >
>   > > The first thing I am finding out is that it is important to 
know 
>   if
>   > > we need to remain a "list" with web access or whether we want 
to
>   > > become a true forum, a web based community without the 
mailing 
>   list.
>   > >
>   > > I personally have always used the web, finding the email 
either
>   > > overwhelming (if individual emails) or confusing if digests 
(and 
>   not
>   > > too timely), but I see from many comments that a lot of us 
are 
>   email
>   > > list users. If this is to overcome the ad problem (as many 
have
>   > > indicated), some of the homes I've found may be 
>   suitable...if "list"
>   > > remeains important, there will only be one alternative.
>   > >
>   > > My view is that the technolgoy of DPReview and 
RobGalbraith.com 
>   are
>   > > the best two platforms supporting content that is close 
enough to
>   > > ours to consider a "merger".
>   > >
>   > > check them out, if you like:
>   > >
>   > > http://www.robgalbraith.com/  (click on enter forums)
>   > > http://www.dpreview.com/  (click on forums)
>   > >
>   > > They both have a nice look and clean features that help you by
>   > > threading and summarizing, etc. DP Review responded that they 
just
>   > > wouldn't have time to transfer our archives. Rob Galbraith 
said 
>   the
>   > > archives would only be possible to transfer to his server if 
they
>   > > were importable to the Ultimat Bulletin Board infrastructure, 
>   which
>   > > he thought was unlikely.
>   > >
>   > > I also checked with both the moderator and the membership of 
the
>   > > Nikon D1 Users Group forum, a self hosted forum. I think we 
could
>   > > work out a merger there...this is a terrific platform as 
well... 
>   but
>   > > it does not support the mailing list.
>   > >
>   > > Check this one out: http://www.nikond1.net/
>   > >
>   > > This left 2 alternatives that I am aware of. First would be to
>   > > establish a USENET news group and this is a real possiblity. 
>   Google
>   > > now has a very slick interface for newsgroup reading and 
>   responding.
>   > > It's not quite as customized as Yahoo groups, but its fast, 
its 
>   free
>   > > and there are no ads whatever.
>   > >
>   > > See an example of this: http://groups.google.com/groups?
>   > > hl=en&group=rec.photo.digital  (if this link doesn't work 
because
>   > > it's on two lines, go to google groups and enter 
>   rec.photo.digital in
>   > > the search box).
>   > >
>   > > Finally, a member of the Nikon D1 Users forum contacted me and
>   > > expressed and interest in helping us start one from 
scratch "I 
>   have
>   > > the server, the knowledge, and the connection. What I need is 
>   time to
>   > > manage it. If you want to co-host it, we could probably put 
this
>   > > together ourselves."
>   > >
>   > > I don't know if we have anyone here who has the time to step 
up 
>   and
>   > > manage a forum (I don't even know how much time it would 
take). I
>   > > assume this is not the case or we wouldn't be in Yahoo now???
>   > >
>   > > There is one other option. It has been mentioned on the list. 
That
>   > > would be to pay Yahoo not to be in an ad environment. I 
haven't
>   > > checked out this cost. I would be willing to contribute to 
it, but
>   > > this is probably something that would be "safer" for the list 
to 
>   be
>   > > in some corporate hands. Maybe we should/could approach Epson 
or 
>   and
>   > > ink or paper manufacturer to buy sponsorships?
>   > >
>   > > Well... looking forward to feedback and new direction... if 
any...
>   > >
>   > > Tom O'Connell
>   > > TomOC@y...
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, 
>   Polls and
>   > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   > >
>   > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   > >
>   > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   > > - Include your full name with your message.
>   > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
>   messages to keep
>   > them short.
>   > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject 
>   header.
>   > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
>   or "flames."
>   > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the 
>   various
>   > resources on the homepage.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
>   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Because I wanted to be able to shuffle and juxtapose the prints made 
with different curves, I printed Paul Roark's 21stepNew.jpg file onto 
4.25" x 11" sheets of Epson Archival Matte, starting with the w5 
curve, which produces a neutral tone, which Paul thought might be the 
easiest to correct, if necessary.

This neutral tone wedge looked so good that I went ahead and printed 
21stepNew from the other three curves too, without going directly to 
a photo as Paul suggested, because I was so eager to compare the 
other, sepia end of the range. It is a lovely, chocolate brown. So, 
but cooler, is its next-door neighbor, just as the neutral's neighbor 
is visibly warmer.

Out of curiosity, I also printed 21sepNew without any curve, and it 
came out looking just as good as, but lighter than, any of the other 
four and more brown than gray. I expect this "uncurved" option might 
have its uses too.

Unfortunately I started this last night, so I was up half the night 
trying different curves on different images I've had in mind for 
Sepia-Neutral. I think it's a winner, a "natural" for old photos but 
also very appealing for some subjects from any era. What's most 
impressive from the step tests however is how even the progression 
appears to be from step to step and without any merging at either end 
of the scale.

Next I want to look at that in the flat-bed. I'd appreciate any tips 
on how best to scan and how best to adjust (if at all) the scan 
before measuring it.

Thanks.

Sam

on 2/14/02 5:26 PM, Sam A. McCandless wrote:

> Next I want to look at that in the flat-bed. I'd appreciate any tips
> on how best to scan and how best to adjust (if at all) the scan
> before measuring it

C'mon Sam, make a print. Make a big print. First revel, then measure. ;-)

Todd

> Because I wanted to be able to shuffle and juxtapose the prints made
> with different curves, I printed Paul Roark's 21stepNew.jpg file onto
> 4.25" x 11" sheets of Epson Archival Matte, starting with the w5
> curve, which produces a neutral tone, which Paul thought might be the
> easiest to correct, if necessary.
> 
> This neutral tone wedge looked so good that I went ahead and printed
> 21stepNew from the other three curves too, without going directly to
> a photo as Paul suggested, because I was so eager to compare the
> other, sepia end of the range. It is a lovely, chocolate brown. So,
> but cooler, is its next-door neighbor, just as the neutral's neighbor
> is visibly warmer.
> 
> Out of curiosity, I also printed 21sepNew without any curve, and it
> came out looking just as good as, but lighter than, any of the other
> four and more brown than gray. I expect this "uncurved" option might
> have its uses too.
> 
> Unfortunately I started this last night, so I was up half the night
> trying different curves on different images I've had in mind for
> Sepia-Neutral. I think it's a winner, a "natural" for old photos but
> also very appealing for some subjects from any era. What's most
> impressive from the step tests however is how even the progression
> appears to be from step to step and without any merging at either end
> of the scale.
> 
> Next I want to look at that in the flat-bed. I'd appreciate any tips
> on how best to scan and how best to adjust (if at all) the scan
> before measuring it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Sam

Tom,

Here is the Yahoo e-mail response to my voice mail message:

"Hello,

Thank you for calling Yahoo!.

We're sorry, but the current version of Yahoo! Groups does not offer the
no advertising or buy advertising option you left us a voicemail about,
and we do not have an estimated date as to when or if it will be
available.

We are always looking for ways to make Yahoo! Groups more useful to our
users, and we will be sure to keep your question in mind as we continue
to make improvements to our service.


Thank you again for contacting Yahoo! Customer Care."

Well I guess that says it all and we are more or less stuck. It might help
if everyone e-mailed and complained about the pop-up ads and the pre-message
viewing ads. You never know.

The e-mail address was:
support@...

Thanks again for all the thought and work.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "tomoc" <tomoc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home


> Martin and Group-
>
> Given the 50/50 email/web split of our membership, my advice is to
> stay where we are for now. I can't find a solution that has the
> features we need. The closest is to take a step back in time and
> become a USENET group... probably not a great idea.
>
> I, for one, would gladly contribute to a fund to remove the intrusive
> advertising. Yahoo is nuts...this whole episode has totally soured me
> on them as a company. The seem to have only AOL as a role model and
> at least AOL provides reliable web connections along with the
> annoyances <g>.
>
>
> Let us know if Yahoo ever responds...
>
> thanks,
>
> Tom O'Connell
>
>
>
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Tom,
> >
> > First of all thank you for spending so much time looking into this.
> To
> > answer Austin's question , a move is being considered because as
> the list
> > has grown in membership so has the Yahoo advertising. The
> advertising has
> > become particularly annoying to those who access the group directly
> with
> > their browser.
(snip earlier)

> We are always looking for ways to make Yahoo! Groups more useful to our
> users, and we will be sure to keep your question in mind as we continue
> to make improvements to our service.

I think they meant to say:

We are always looking for ways to make Yahoo! Groups more useful to our
*advertisers* ...

I can't relax until my 2002 Christmas card is finished.

Sam

>on 2/14/02 5:26 PM, Sam A. McCandless wrote:
>
> > Next I want to look at that [test print] in the flat-bed. I'd 
>appreciate any tips
> > on how best to scan and how best to adjust (if at all) the scan
> > before measuring it
>
>C'mon Sam, make a print. Make a big print. First revel, then measure. ;-)
>
>Todd

I, for one, am happier with the e-mail version of the Yahoo! group than I
have been with dpreview or other similar board-oriented forums. The Yahoo!
group forums always seem to be more of a community than the dpreviw ones,
although I admit it's much easier to follow a thread on dpreview. I have
learned a lot by having to scan through messages apparently not related to
what I'm looking for with the Yahoo! groups, whereas with dpreview I tend to
go straight for the threads I've contributed to or that seem related. It's
like ordering a book from Amazon.com or going into a good bookstore and
browsing through the section that contains the book you are looking for.
Also, the ability to post files in the Files area seems essential.

There are some sites that mirror various lists (the Leben Scan and Epson
Inkjet lists come to mind) that do not use Yahoo's software and hence do not
use Yahoo's ads. They are also easier to follow threads. Perhaps there is a
way to get this forum mirrored there, too. The "alternate" Scan and Inkjet
lists are hosted by http://www.spinics.net. Perhaps someone with more
expertise than I have could figure out how this person is getting these
lists and arrange for him (or her) to mirror the Digital BW list in the same
way. Then those who don't want to use the e-mail option, or who want a
threaded structure, can find it. Check out the Epson Ink Printers and
Scanner mailing list links at this site to see what I mean.

- David

-----Original Message-----
From: tomoc [mailto:tomoc@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 1:19 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home


Austin-

Over the past three months there have been a few outbursts here about
the obnoxious popup ads and "click-through" ads that Yahoo inserted
to the web flavor of our forum (if you are using email in text
format, you will not be at all aware of it).

I wouldn't even go so far as to say we should CONSIDER MOVING yet. I
think we are still in the stage of "are there other options?"

Maybe Antonis or Martin know what percentage of the list is email and
what percent is web based?

In any event, I volunteered to do a survey of options and hence the
report posted last night.

It would seem there is not a totally perfect free solution... so we
need to weigh the plusses and minuses, as it were...

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin"
<darkroom@i...> wrote:
>
> > Thought I should give you all an update on my research on possible
> > new homes for the list/forum.
>
> This is the first I've heard of this.  Apparently I missed the
reasons for
> why this list should consider moving...perhaps you can re-state
them?
>
> Austin



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I'm active both on DPreview and here, but I am more active here because 
DPreview is web based...

On Thursday 14 Feb 2002 10:23 pm, tomoc wrote:
> Steadman-
>
> I fear you may be one of the few email users willing to switch... I'm
> ok with that... but at the risk of starting a flame, it *does* seem
> awfully "80's" not to move to a web solution that can evolve <g>.
>
> I hadn't thought that we could move files and link back for
> archives... might work. Certainly after a while, it wouldn't get much
> use, but I guess yahoo isn't throwing us out and would just see less
> traffic, but they seem to be willing to put any page up if they can
> charge an advertiser, so I suspect we could keep the archives on
> those terms virutally forever.
>
> I'm for it, but not if there is any serious reluctance to abandon
> email. There is a great chemistry and mix of experise and personality
> here... if email is the glue, I'm for that.
>
> Tom O'Connell
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich"
>
> <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> > While I am one of the 50% that receive emails from this forum, I
>
> believe the forum would be better hosted at DPreview.com as an
> example.  There the reading of threads by subject is easy, and there
> is a large audience of digital camera users (the future users of
> digital black and white) so the "reach" of the forum could be
> expanded.  I also like the ability of that forum to have links for
> images and embedded images too.  That could prove very useful and
> fast for users of the forum who like to "see" as well as read.
>
> > I have no complaints about this forum (I read the many emails
>
> everyday) but I do think the other forum software (hosting at
> dpreview) would be beneficial (it would also allow me to limit my
> emails to essential correspondance) so I heartily suggest the move.
>
> > As for the forum archives.....it seems rare that anyone reads them
>
> now anyway.  So...if there are good items that should be moved to a
> new home...just move the best...and link back to this forum for past
> threads for those interested.
>
> > Steadman
> >
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: tomoc
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 2:25 PM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum
>
> home
>
> >   Martin and Group-
> >
> >   Given the 50/50 email/web split of our membership, my advice is
>
> to
>
> >   stay where we are for now. I can't find a solution that has the
> >   features we need. The closest is to take a step back in time and
> >   become a USENET group... probably not a great idea.
> >
> >   I, for one, would gladly contribute to a fund to remove the
>
> intrusive
>
> >   advertising. Yahoo is nuts...this whole episode has totally
>
> soured me
>
> >   on them as a company. The seem to have only AOL as a role model
>
> and
>
> >   at least AOL provides reliable web connections along with the
> >   annoyances <g>.
> >
> >
> >   Let us know if Yahoo ever responds...
> >
> >   thanks,
> >
> >   Tom O'Connell
> >
> >
> >
> >   -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> >
> >   <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >   > Tom,
> >   >
> >   > First of all thank you for spending so much time looking into
>
> this.
>
> >   To
> >
> >   > answer Austin's question , a move is being considered because
>
> as
>
> >   the list
> >
> >   > has grown in membership so has the Yahoo advertising. The
> >
> >   advertising has
> >
> >   > become particularly annoying to those who access the group
>
> directly
>
> >   with
> >
> >   > their browser.
> >   >
> >   > To answer your major question, a quick review of the membership
> >
> >   settings
> >
> >   > indicate that there is about a 50/50 split between those who do
>
> and
>
> >   those
> >
> >   > who don't receive the posts by e-mail or digest. So there
>
> really
>
> >   does need
> >
> >   > to be both and the e-mail side needs to provide daily and
>
> weekly
>
> >   digests.
> >
> >   > On line access should provide the ability to view messages by
>
> date
>
> >   (my
> >
> >   > personal method of checking the group) and by thread. We are
>
> also
>
> >   using the
> >
> >   > Files, Bookmarks, Database and Polls features of the group
>
> homepage.
>
> >   > I have a backup of all the posted messages on my computer as
>
> *.elm
>
> >   films and
> >
> >   > a new site must be able to import all 9700 in mass and
>
> reconcile
>
> >   duplicate
> >
> >   > file names.
> >   >
> >   > The other issue is that the hosting organization needs to be
>
> large,
>
> >   stable
> >
> >   > and likely to be around a long time. Yahoo has it's faults but
>
> it
>
> >   does have
> >
> >   > a huge amount of hardware and staff to keep it running and
>
> backed
>
> >   up.
> >
> >   > All together this is a very tall order.
> >   >
> >   > As far as running a forum goes, it has taken far more of my
>
> time
>
> >   than I
> >
> >   > anticipated at the beginning. If you add to that the technical
>
> side
>
> >   of
> >
> >   > setting up software, maintaining a server, do back-ups, etc.
>
> the
>
> >   time
> >
> >   > investment would be huge.
> >   >
> >   > The best solution would be to get Yahoo to modify their
>
> advertising
>
> >   on line
> >
> >   > either by persuasion. I have left voice mail with Yahoo and
>
> sent an
>
> >   e-mail
> >
> >   > about purchasing the ad space. Hopefully I will get a reply as
>
> this
>
> >   would be
> >
> >   > the easiest solution to our problems (assuming they don't want
>
> a
>
> >   huge sum of
> >
> >   > money!) If we do pay for this it would need to be done by the
> >
> >   members as one
> >
> >   > of our founding principles is to be free of any connection to a
> >
> >   company
> >
> >   > involved in selling products for digital printing.
> >   >
> >   > Once again thank you for your research!
> >   >
> >   > Martin
> >   >
> >   > ----- Original Message -----
> >   > From: "tomoc" <tomoc@y...>
> >   > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> >   > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:39 PM
> >   > Subject: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home
> >   >
> >   > > HI everyone-
> >   > >
> >   > > Thought I should give you all an update on my research on
>
> possible
>
> >   > > new homes for the list/forum.
> >   > >
> >   > > The first thing I am finding out is that it is important to
>
> know
>
> >   if
> >
> >   > > we need to remain a "list" with web access or whether we want
>
> to
>
> >   > > become a true forum, a web based community without the
>
> mailing
>
> >   list.
> >
> >   > > I personally have always used the web, finding the email
>
> either
>
> >   > > overwhelming (if individual emails) or confusing if digests
>
> (and
>
> >   not
> >
> >   > > too timely), but I see from many comments that a lot of us
>
> are
>
> >   email
> >
> >   > > list users. If this is to overcome the ad problem (as many
>
> have
>
> >   > > indicated), some of the homes I've found may be
> >
> >   suitable...if "list"
> >
> >   > > remeains important, there will only be one alternative.
> >   > >
> >   > > My view is that the technolgoy of DPReview and
>
> RobGalbraith.com
>
> >   are
> >
> >   > > the best two platforms supporting content that is close
>
> enough to
>
> >   > > ours to consider a "merger".
> >   > >
> >   > > check them out, if you like:
> >   > >
> >   > > http://www.robgalbraith.com/  (click on enter forums)
> >   > > http://www.dpreview.com/  (click on forums)
> >   > >
> >   > > They both have a nice look and clean features that help you by
> >   > > threading and summarizing, etc. DP Review responded that they
>
> just
>
> >   > > wouldn't have time to transfer our archives. Rob Galbraith
>
> said
>
> >   the
> >
> >   > > archives would only be possible to transfer to his server if
>
> they
>
> >   > > were importable to the Ultimat Bulletin Board infrastructure,
> >
> >   which
> >
> >   > > he thought was unlikely.
> >   > >
> >   > > I also checked with both the moderator and the membership of
>
> the
>
> >   > > Nikon D1 Users Group forum, a self hosted forum. I think we
>
> could
>
> >   > > work out a merger there...this is a terrific platform as
>
> well...
>
> >   but
> >
> >   > > it does not support the mailing list.
> >   > >
> >   > > Check this one out: http://www.nikond1.net/
> >   > >
> >   > > This left 2 alternatives that I am aware of. First would be to
> >   > > establish a USENET news group and this is a real possiblity.
> >
> >   Google
> >
> >   > > now has a very slick interface for newsgroup reading and
> >
> >   responding.
> >
> >   > > It's not quite as customized as Yahoo groups, but its fast,
>
> its
>
> >   free
> >
> >   > > and there are no ads whatever.
> >   > >
> >   > > See an example of this: http://groups.google.com/groups?
> >   > > hl=en&group=rec.photo.digital  (if this link doesn't work
>
> because
>
> >   > > it's on two lines, go to google groups and enter
> >
> >   rec.photo.digital in
> >
> >   > > the search box).
> >   > >
> >   > > Finally, a member of the Nikon D1 Users forum contacted me and
> >   > > expressed and interest in helping us start one from
>
> scratch "I
>
> >   have
> >
> >   > > the server, the knowledge, and the connection. What I need is
> >
> >   time to
> >
> >   > > manage it. If you want to co-host it, we could probably put
>
> this
>
> >   > > together ourselves."
> >   > >
> >   > > I don't know if we have anyone here who has the time to step
>
> up
>
> >   and
> >
> >   > > manage a forum (I don't even know how much time it would
>
> take). I
>
> >   > > assume this is not the case or we wouldn't be in Yahoo now???
> >   > >
> >   > > There is one other option. It has been mentioned on the list.
>
> That
>
> >   > > would be to pay Yahoo not to be in an ad environment. I
>
> haven't
>
> >   > > checked out this cost. I would be willing to contribute to
>
> it, but
>
> >   > > this is probably something that would be "safer" for the list
>
> to
>
> >   be
> >
> >   > > in some corporate hands. Maybe we should/could approach Epson
>
> or
>
> >   and
> >
> >   > > ink or paper manufacturer to buy sponsorships?
> >   > >
> >   > > Well... looking forward to feedback and new direction... if
>
> any...
>
> >   > > Tom O'Connell
> >   > > TomOC@y...
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
>
> Bookmarks,
>
> >   Polls and
> >
> >   > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >   > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >   > >
> >   > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >   > > - Include your full name with your message.
> >   > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >   > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> >
> >   messages to keep
> >
> >   > them short.
> >   >
> >   > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
>
> subject
>
> >   header.
> >
> >   > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
> >
> >   or "flames."
> >
> >   > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >   > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and
>
> the
>
> >   various
> >
> >   > resources on the homepage.
> >   >
> >   > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >
> >   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >               ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
>
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page
>
> is at:
> >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >   - Include your full name with your message.
> >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
>
> messages to keep them short.
>
> >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>
> header.
>
> >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
>
> or "flames."
>
> >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
>
> various resources on the homepage.
>
> >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>
> Service.
>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short. - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
> subject header. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or "flames." - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Good Morning,

I just wanted to say thanks for this group and all of the efforts that you
all put into it.
I am getting this as e-mails so I guess I am one of the lucky ones with no
ads.

Regards,

John in OKC

| Martin and Group-
|
| Given the 50/50 email/web split of our membership, my advice is to
| stay where we are for now. I can't find a solution that has the
| features we need. The closest is to take a step back in time and
| become a USENET group... probably not a great idea.
|
| I, for one, would gladly contribute to a fund to remove the intrusive
| advertising. Yahoo is nuts...this whole episode has totally soured me
| on them as a company. The seem to have only AOL as a role model and
| at least AOL provides reliable web connections along with the
| annoyances <g>.
|
|
| Let us know if Yahoo ever responds...
|
| thanks,
|
| Tom O'Connell
<big snip>

Of course they are and for good reason: the advertisers pay them and 
we don't. The ads annoy me when I go on Yahoo. But it seems to me a 
small price to pay for the list. And my chief concern is that we 
impose as little as possible on Antonis and Martin in hopes they'll 
continue to find their role and function bearable.

Sam

> > We are always looking for ways to make Yahoo! Groups more useful to our
> > users, and we will be sure to keep your question in mind as we continue
> > to make improvements to our service.
>
>I think they meant to say:
>
>We are always looking for ways to make Yahoo! Groups more useful to our
>*advertisers* ...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "John" <jackg@p...> 
wrote:
 am getting this as e-mails so I guess I am one of the lucky ones 
with no
> ads.


Just for the record everyone, the email version of this list is NOT 
the offensive one. We are strictly talking about the WEB-BASED 
version only; that's where the pop-up ads and intermittent ads 
come into play.

If you get the email version, either individual or Digest, you might 
see a little text ad at the bottom, but compared to what you're 
bombarded with with the web version, this is nothing.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of people on this 
list get the email version and which are set to "No Mail" which 
would indicate the web version.

For me, I'm not willing to receive that many individual mails, and 
the Digest version is too time consuming to wade through to find 
valuable nuggets. So the web version is all that I'm interested in. 
But once you choose that, then the ad slam begins.

MTucker

I'm one that would not be inclined to follow a web-based list. When I 
retrieve my mail, I have them all to poke through, search though. 
Some of the web-based lists are exceedingly slow due to server load, 
not to my download speed.

I know I haven't made many stirling contributions here, but have 
enjoyed the community.

Tim Spragens

> I fear you may be one of the few email users willing to switch... I'm 
> ok with that... but at the risk of starting a flame, it *does* seem 
> awfully "80's" not to move to a web solution that can evolve <g>.
> 


-- 
Tim Spragens

http://www.borderless-photos.de
http://www.borderless-photos.com

so yahoo is saying something like "help us help you help us..."

i lurk on quite more groups than i'm active on and prefer email to web based
solutions.  i live in a rural area and my connect speeds are pretty slow by
today's general standards.  the local telco guys tell me i'm lucky to draw
dial-tone.  my server takes care of collecting my email periodically so i
don't have to wait for pages to load down a slow link.

i'd prefer a solution that embraces both email and web options.

kenb

----- Original Message -----

From: "Thomas Fors" <tom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home


> > We are always looking for ways to make Yahoo! Groups more useful to our
> > users, and we will be sure to keep your question in mind as we continue
> > to make improvements to our service.
>
> I think they meant to say:
>
> We are always looking for ways to make Yahoo! Groups more useful to our
> *advertisers* ...

> Just for the record everyone, the email version of this list is NOT
> the offensive one. We are strictly talking about the WEB-BASED
> version only; that's where the pop-up ads and intermittent ads
> come into play.

There ARE programs to deal with pop-ups.  Go to ZD-Net and look for a
program called "ZeroPopp.zip".  I have NOT used it, but was enthralled that
such a thing was available.  While you are at it...go to:

http://www.lavasoftusa.com/ and download AdWare and the updater...it is a
program that will remove the keystroke capturing programs that are secretly
installed on your computer when you install some other software...and some
of these keystroke capture programs CAN and DO capture your passwords!

Austin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin" 
<darkroom@i...> wrote:
> There ARE programs to deal with pop-ups. 


I have tried some of those pop-up killers. I think the one i used 
was at http://www.panicware.com. It seemed to install many 
components, and seemed to be very intrusive into my system. I 
had hoped it would be a simple thing to kill those things, but it 
appeared from that software that it was not.

I would suggest not spending a lot of energy trying to combat 
these things. I'd rather put my energy finding a better solution. 
Like another person who posted, my entire opinion of Yahoo has 
changed of late; I used to respect and admire them as a 
company, but lately they've seemed to drop to a new low. I would 
hope that them (and their advertisers) hearing this might have an 
impact, but I'm sure someone's already run the numbers, and 
the complainers like us are in the minority.

I'd certainly be willing to anty up money to kill the ads, but after 
much searching, they seem to not offer that option.

MTucker

I get the individual e-mails and find it easy to skip through them 
quickly. And if I did not see them individually, I would miss an 
appreciable number in which I'm interested because the subject line 
is so neglected.

Sam

>[snip] For me, I'm not willing to receive that many individual mails, and
>the Digest version is too time consuming to wade through to find
>valuable nuggets. So the web version is all that I'm interested in.
>But once you choose that, then the ad slam begins.[snip]

Quoting marktuckerdotcom <mark@...>:

> It would be interesting to know what percentage of people on this 
> list get the email version and which are set to "No Mail" which 
> would indicate the web version.

I think Martin already mentioned that it was about 50/50.

> For me, I'm not willing to receive that many individual mails, and 
> the Digest version is too time consuming to wade through to find 
> valuable nuggets. So the web version is all that I'm interested in. 
> But once you choose that, then the ad slam begins.

I'd encourage anyone who hasn't already tried it, to see if their email program 
supports filtering incoming mail. I went through the same thing as Mark, 
overwhelmed by too much mail, then switched to digest and figured out how bad 
that sucked, then realized the web interface is pretty useless (this was even 
before the interstitial ads). (BTW, this page about all the differnt ads that 
yahoo sells is enlightening http://solutions.yahoo.com/adspecs/index.html) Then 
I remembered those little rules that you can set up in Outlook, and in about 10 
seconds I had all the list messages dropping right into their own separate 
folder in my inbox, as soon as they arrive. Now I can sort the messages however 
I want, I don't suffer the ads, and I read more, because opening the messages 
is much faster than on the web.

I appreciate some people's want or need to read the messages on the web, but I 
agree with the previous post about the quality of the community being higher 
due to email. I keep up with the list because it drops in my lap every time I 
read my mail, if I had to make a point of seeking it out I'd participate a lot 
less.

So I guess I'm voting for not moving.

-Jason

_________________________________________________________________________
This mail sent via toadmail.com, web e-mail @ ToadNet - want to go fast?
http://www.toadmail.com

Wow!

I for one would never keep up with a list with as much activity as this via
the web- it's just way too slow.  The only way I use boards like dpreview is
if I have a specific question - like now I want to buy a digital camera, so
I look for comments on the E20, etc.

For me the real question is why would anyone who can avoid it ever read this
list via the web, again other than to do searches for specific questions?

For me, the Yahoo system is the best available, even if annoying when I go
to the files section or do a search.

Bill

on 2/14/02 3:46 PM, Steadman Uhlich wrote:

While I am one of the 50% that receive emails from this forum, I believe the
forum would be better hosted at DPreview.com as an example.  There the
reading of threads by subject is easy, and there is a large audience of
digital camera users (the future users of digital black and white) so the
"reach" of the forum could be expanded.  I also like the ability of that
forum to have links for images and embedded images too.  That could prove
very useful and fast for users of the forum who like to "see" as well as
read.  

As for the forum archives.....it seems rare that anyone reads them now
anyway.  So...if there are good items that should be moved to a new
home...just move the best...and link back to this forum for past threads for
those interested.  

Steadman




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

this is similar to what i do--filter email into individual mail folders--and
it works quite well.  if your mail client can do this, and if it threads as
most do, then you're really set.  fast and easy and no ads...

kenb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason DeFontes" <jason@...>
>
snip

> I'd encourage anyone who hasn't already tried it, to see if their email
program
> supports filtering incoming mail. I went through the same thing as Mark,
> overwhelmed by too much mail, then switched to digest and figured out how
bad
> that sucked, then realized the web interface is pretty useless (this was
even
> before the interstitial ads). (BTW, this page about all the differnt ads
that
> yahoo sells is enlightening http://solutions.yahoo.com/adspecs/index.html)
Then
> I remembered those little rules that you can set up in Outlook, and in
about 10
> seconds I had all the list messages dropping right into their own separate
> folder in my inbox, as soon as they arrive. Now I can sort the messages
however
> I want, I don't suffer the ads, and I read more, because opening the
messages
> is much faster than on the web.

snip

>
> -Jason
>

on 2/15/02 12:15 PM, Jason DeFontes wrote:

> Then 
> I remembered those little rules that you can set up in Outlook, and in about
> 10 
> seconds I had all the list messages dropping right into their own separate
> folder in my inbox, as soon as they arrive. Now I can sort the messages
> however 
> I want, I don't suffer the ads, and I read more, because opening the messages
> is much faster than on the web.


Ditto. It's the only way I can deal with this stuff. Then you can sort by
whatever criteria suits your mood, I get no ads, and it's sooo much faster.

Todd

Just to let everyone know, I would not relocate the group unless it could be
done while maintaining all the e-mail and web features we currently have. At
the moment that does not look promising, so I doubt that a change is likely.

I used to check the messages via the web but now with all the delaying ads
(I wouldn't mind them so much if it didn't cut performance) I am primarily
tracking the list by e-mail which is routed directly to a seperate folder in
Outlook as was described in earlier posts.

BTW, if you want to e-mail me off list make sure "Digital BW" is not in the
header or your message will be lost in that folder with all the list posts
and I may not see it.

David Bookbinder's suggestion of mirroring the list messages to a more web
friendly site sounds like a good possibility if it can be done.

Thank you for all your suggestions and comments!

Martin Wesley

P.S.

Someone contacted me off list with a helpful phone number but I
inadvertantly deleted the message. If you would send it again, I would be
most grateful.

Bill, 

I find the web oriented Yahoo forums to be very slow and don't like them at all.  I also don't like the pop up must click through ads either. 

However, the Dpreview forum is a very good model that contains a wealth of information, different forums, many embedded images in posts, lots of threads (and activity) and many "archival" pluses.  I can spend hours at Dpreview and surf and surf from one thread to another, picking where I want to go and looking at more stuff than I can digest in any evening.  

Of course I am also on a highspeed connection (cablemodem) so that may make a difference. (wink).

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bill Morse 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 11:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home


  Wow!

  I for one would never keep up with a list with as much activity as this via
  the web- it's just way too slow.  The only way I use boards like dpreview is
  if I have a specific question - like now I want to buy a digital camera, so
  I look for comments on the E20, etc.

  For me the real question is why would anyone who can avoid it ever read this
  list via the web, again other than to do searches for specific questions?

  For me, the Yahoo system is the best available, even if annoying when I go
  to the files section or do a search.

  Bill

  on 2/14/02 3:46 PM, Steadman Uhlich wrote:

  While I am one of the 50% that receive emails from this forum, I believe the
  forum would be better hosted at DPreview.com as an example.  There the
  reading of threads by subject is easy, and there is a large audience of
  digital camera users (the future users of digital black and white) so the
  "reach" of the forum could be expanded.  I also like the ability of that
  forum to have links for images and embedded images too.  That could prove
  very useful and fast for users of the forum who like to "see" as well as
  read.  

  As for the forum archives.....it seems rare that anyone reads them now
  anyway.  So...if there are good items that should be moved to a new
  home...just move the best...and link back to this forum for past threads for
  those interested.  

  Steadman




  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ditto that Tim... fast, easy, searchable, archivable, deletable... no ads...
no pop up windows... What more is there... I don't read these lists on the
web.

Carolyn

> I'm one that would not be inclined to follow a web-based list. When I
> retrieve my mail, I have them all to poke through, search though.
> Some of the web-based lists are exceedingly slow due to server load,
> not to my download speed.
> 
> I know I haven't made many stirling contributions here, but have
> enjoyed the community.
> 
> Tim Spragens
> 
>> I fear you may be one of the few email users willing to switch... I'm
>> ok with that... but at the risk of starting a flame, it *does* seem
>> awfully "80's" not to move to a web solution that can evolve <g>.

Troops,

FWIW, simply using Outlook Express, I filter the Group email into a folder.  I then look at that folder & move stuff to about 6 subfolders or trash.  I seldom get more that 50 or 60 & those with the view/ follow conversational threads turned on make it easy to sort out.  I could automatically get meaasege into the sub folders, but that's too much trouble now.

I also belong to several other e-mail groups & routinely get abt 1500 total per day.  Because I clean out or save every day, I only see the new stuff.  Total overhead time is maybe 5 min per day & I don't miss anything.

One great thing about the Yahoo group is that I can go on the yahoo site & search the entire archive.  that's very nice & also means that I can be very aggressive in trashing messages.

lastly, I Keep the deleted folder for about 2 weeks (15 to 18 thousand messages).  As they say, "it works for me"

Cheers & don't let this group die.  You folks are very sharp & there is very little flaming -- probably the best group I've viewed.  The ads are a pain, but I'm very quick with the mouse!

Carl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I too am happy the way it is.  I get mine wia e-mail.  No problems.

Denise

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Spragens" <t.spragens@...>
To: <dIgitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Update report on search for new forum home


> I'm one that would not be inclined to follow a web-based list. When
I
> retrieve my mail, I have them all to poke through, search though.
> Some of the web-based lists are exceedingly slow due to server load,
> not to my download speed.
>



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