Digital BW, The Print

I've been looking for a non-OBA paper to use with a mix of HP PK and Eboni for my more neutral printing. (I'm moving away from all OBAs.)  The Aurora Natural looks like a real bargain.  Here are the relative costs of some papers for 13x19 sheets:

Aurora Natural -- $1.34,

Arches watercolor -- $1.70,

Alise Natural -- $2.24,

Premier Art 325 -- $2.75.

The Aurora N actually seems to have the lowest Lab B of the group, which is a positive factor for my use.  The Aurora is on the thin side (13 mils) but it's thicker than the 200 gsm paper I've used with good results.

Does anybody have any bad news relating to Aurora Natural?  It seems like a bargain.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I have been using Red River Aurora Natural for several years as a excellent
testing paper . It is a great price but I have found the D-Max and weight of
250gsm  to be a little less than I would like for most final prints. 

 

As for other non-OBA papers I just received a box of the new Epson Hot Press
Natural and for a premium paper it is very reasonably priced at $2.79 for a
sheet of 13x19 compared to HPR at $4.07 both from Atlex.com.

In my testing of the paper I found the dmax to be very similar to HPR being
just over 1.72 using the 1400 with HP-C6 ink. The surface is very similar to
HPR but the paper not at white. I would like to try it with K3 but I have PK
ink in my K3 printer now and don't want to change today. Have you or others
tried either of these new hot press papers from Epson? I read the review on
Luminous-Landscape which is why I bought a box. I have not tried the Hot
Press Bright White and am interested in some comments relating to it with
B&W. 

Thanks,

Gary Wagner

www.garywagner.com

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 7:44 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Red River Aurora Natural

 

  

I've been looking for a non-OBA paper to use with a mix of HP PK and Eboni
for my more neutral printing. (I'm moving away from all OBAs.) The Aurora
Natural looks like a real bargain. Here are the relative costs of some
papers for 13x19 sheets:

Aurora Natural -- $1.34,

Arches watercolor -- $1.70,

Alise Natural -- $2.24,

Premier Art 325 -- $2.75.

The Aurora N actually seems to have the lowest Lab B of the group, which is
a positive factor for my use. The Aurora is on the thin side (13 mils) but
it's thicker than the 200 gsm paper I've used with good results.

Does anybody have any bad news relating to Aurora Natural? It seems like a
bargain.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

and the best part is that it's only a short drive across downtown to pick
some up. I have been using it for years as a secondary paper. 

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:44 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Red River Aurora Natural

 

  

I've been looking for a non-OBA paper to use with a mix of HP PK and Eboni
for my more neutral printing. (I'm moving away from all OBAs.) The Aurora
Natural looks like a real bargain. Here are the relative costs of some
papers for 13x19 sheets:

Aurora Natural -- $1.34,

Arches watercolor -- $1.70,

Alise Natural -- $2.24,

Premier Art 325 -- $2.75.

The Aurora N actually seems to have the lowest Lab B of the group, which is
a positive factor for my use. The Aurora is on the thin side (13 mils) but
it's thicker than the 200 gsm paper I've used with good results.

Does anybody have any bad news relating to Aurora Natural? It seems like a
bargain.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've had a box sitting around here for a while and got hold of it a couple of days ago to create some QTR profiles. I was surprised at the dmax I'm getting (or lack thereof). 1.55 seem to be the best I can get with ebony. I used it in the past (in roll) and I seem to remember I was getting better values than this. What kind of numbers do other people get?

Dario

> I've been looking for a non-OBA paper to use with a mix of HP PK and Eboni for my more neutral printing. (I'm moving away from all OBAs.)  The Aurora Natural looks like a real bargain.  Here are the relative costs of some papers for 13x19 sheets:
> 
> Aurora Natural -- $1.34,
> 
> Arches watercolor -- $1.70,
> 
> Alise Natural -- $2.24,
> 
> Premier Art 325 -- $2.75.
> 
> The Aurora N actually seems to have the lowest Lab B of the group, which is a positive factor for my use.  The Aurora is on the thin side (13 mils) but it's thicker than the 200 gsm paper I've used with good results.
> 
> Does anybody have any bad news relating to Aurora Natural?  It seems like a bargain.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Aurora Natural Lab L = 16.65 - 17 with QTR, 7800, & Eboni.  That's 1.65 - 1.64.  I have not worked with enough batches to know what to expect with respect to variances among the batches.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "met.graphix" <metgraphix@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> I've had a box sitting around here for a while and got hold of it a couple of days ago to create some QTR profiles. I was surprised at the dmax I'm getting (or lack thereof). 1.55 seem to be the best I can get with ebony. I used it in the past (in roll) and I seem to remember I was getting better values than this. What kind of numbers do other people get?
> 
> Dario
> 
> 
> > I've been looking for a non-OBA paper to use with a mix of HP PK and Eboni for my more neutral printing. (I'm moving away from all OBAs.)  The Aurora Natural looks like a real bargain.  Here are the relative costs of some papers for 13x19 sheets:
> > 
> > Aurora Natural -- $1.34,
> > 
> > Arches watercolor -- $1.70,
> > 
> > Alise Natural -- $2.24,
> > 
> > Premier Art 325 -- $2.75.
> > 
> > The Aurora N actually seems to have the lowest Lab B of the group, which is a positive factor for my use.  The Aurora is on the thin side (13 mils) but it's thicker than the 200 gsm paper I've used with good results.
> > 
> > Does anybody have any bad news relating to Aurora Natural?  It seems like a bargain.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

I have come to the conclusion that HP is never going to offer the printer I need and Epson and Canon inks are unacceptable, so...

Does anyone know of a set/combination/formula, whatever, of 100% carbon inks that give a heavy chocolate brown tone? 
> 

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:00 PM, David Kachel wrote:

> Does anyone know of a set/combination/formula, whatever, of 100%  
> carbon inks that give a heavy chocolate brown tone?

Carbon will only give carbon-tone, which will vary from fairly neutral  
to a bit warm, depending on media. You will need other formulations to  
create serious sepia or brown tones. Given that you want that degree  
of tint, what's wrong with the inks Epson and Canon already provide?

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 2, 2010, at 1:50 PM, C D Tobie wrote:

> Carbon will only give carbon-tone, which will vary from fairly neutral 
> to a bit warm, depending on media. You will need other formulations to 
> create serious sepia or brown tones.

Of course you may be right, but I was under the impression that carbon inks tended quite naturally to brown and that one of the difficulties in creating the current ink sets was in getting rid of the brown.

> Given that you want that degree 
> of tint, what's wrong with the inks Epson and Canon already provide?

Life expectancies are way too short for my tastes.


David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

100-200 years is not long enough?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:59 PM, David Kachel wrote:

>> Given that you want that degree
>> of tint, what's wrong with the inks Epson and Canon already provide?
>
> Life expectancies are way too short for my tastes.
>
>
> David Kachel

On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:59 PM, David Kachel wrote:

>>
>> Carbon will only give carbon-tone, which will vary from fairly  
>> neutral
>> to a bit warm, depending on media. You will need other formulations  
>> to
>> create serious sepia or brown tones.
>
> Of course you may be right, but I was under the impression that  
> carbon inks tended quite naturally to brown and that one of the  
> difficulties in creating the current ink sets was in getting rid of  
> the brown.

Right, they are not dead neutral, but the tint varies, and tends to be  
fairly subtle. Certainly not anything I would call "brown"...
>
>> Given that you want that degree
>> of tint, what's wrong with the inks Epson and Canon already provide?
>
> Life expectancies are way too short for my tastes.

Hmmm... sounds like idealism to me. The carbon components last well,  
the colors may fade differentially over time, with sufficient light  
exposure, but for "brown" prints they are so far from neutral that it  
will be a matter of a somewhat different shade of "brown" at worst.  
How many hundred years do you expect your prints to be displayed?

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a set/combination/formula, whatever, of 100% carbon inks that give a heavy chocolate brown tone? 
> > 
> 
> David Kachel

Jon Cone has said that his Selenium toned K7 / K6 set looks like chocolate when printed on Canson papers (Rag Photographique I believe). Seems to be a combination of the Canson coating and the K7 pigments. I'm using Cone's Special Edition set right now on Rag Photographique, and I have just ordered a Selenium set. I can give you a subjective opinion when they arrive, likely in a couple of weeks.

Terry.

On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:24 PM, tritz333 wrote:

> I can give you a subjective opinion when they arrive, likely in a couple of weeks.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Mark Savoia wrote:

> 100-200 years is not long enough?

No. And I have been around the photographic industry long enough to know that whatever claims a manufacturer makes, divide by 5 and you will be a lot closer to the truth.


David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:08 PM, C D Tobie wrote:

> Hmmm... sounds like idealism to me. The carbon components last well, 
> the colors may fade differentially over time, with sufficient light 
> exposure, but for "brown" prints they are so far from neutral that it 
> will be a matter of a somewhat different shade of "brown" at worst. 
> How many hundred years do you expect your prints to be displayed?

I put a lot of effort into getting the exact shade of brown I desire and don't want it to change to some other brown in ten or twenty years.

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1.64 - 1.64 are quite decent number. I could certainly live with that. OK, I hope it was a bad batch as it's otherwise a very nice paper. I'll order some more soon and will report. 

BTW how did we get from Red River Aurora Natural to Brown Tones w/ Carbon inks ???

Dario


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Aurora Natural Lab L = 16.65 - 17 with QTR, 7800, & Eboni.  That's 1.65 - 1.64.  I have not worked with enough batches to know what to expect with respect to variances among the batches.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
>

It is not what the manufactures say, it is the independent testing  
facilities say.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Feb 2, 2010, at 3:44 PM, David Kachel wrote:

>
> On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Mark Savoia wrote:
>
>> 100-200 years is not long enough?
>
> No. And I have been around the photographic industry long enough to  
> know that whatever claims a manufacturer makes, divide by 5 and you  
> will be a lot closer to the truth.
>
>
> David Kachel
>

Yea, but Mark only one those two are independent of big corporate money, and his name isn't Henry.

john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:

>
> It is not what the manufactures say, it is the independent testing  
> facilities say.
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/
> http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Feb 2, 2010, at 3:44 PM, David Kachel wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Mark Savoia wrote:
> >
> >> 100-200 years is not long enough?
> >
> > No. And I have been around the photographic industry long enough to  
> > know that whatever claims a manufacturer makes, divide by 5 and you  
> > will be a lot closer to the truth.
> >
> >
> > David Kachel
> >
>

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
 
> I put a lot of effort into getting the exact shade of brown I desire and don't want it to change to some other brown in ten or twenty years.

Do you have the Lab A and B values for a 50% midtone of your ideal warm tone?

What I suspect is that the brown you are looking for is both warmer than the carbons we have and has a Lab A that is closer to the Lab B value than what carbon has.  Carbon tends to be more of a yellowish warm as opposed to a "chocolate" warm.

Jon Cone's carbon sepia is probably the best warm 100% carbon inkset.  There are members of this forum who can probably give you some Lab coordinates for some papers with that inkset.

MIS glossy compatible carbon sold as LK and LLK (among others) on a paper like Crane Silver Rag will have a Lab (a, b) of about (4.2, 12.8).  With a paper like EEM the values would be about (2.9, 7.3).  For this EEM, the paper white Lab values were (0.9, -1.1).  So, the change was (2, 8.4).

The Aardenburg-Imaging fade test of Cone Carbon Sepia on H. Photo Rag shows a Lab (a, b) at 50% of (3.3, 8.1).  There the paper white was (0.7, 0.7).  The change here was (2.6, 7.4); not all that different from the MIS carbon.

There are some matte papers that are warmer than these.  But, my experience with measuring the classic sepia tones and mixing the MIS sepia toners for the UT2 and UT7 is that a true sepia has a Lab B of closer to 20 -- considerably warmer than these carbon inks.  

For a more "chocolate" look, the Lab A needs to be closer to the Lab B value.  I have not seen any carbon ink that can do that.  The Cone sepia and MIS PK, LK, & LLK carbons are about as warm as I've seen.

Ideally, I think a toner ought to be a single pigment type so that the fade path is straight back to carbon.  Some of the newer red or orange pigments would be interesting to experiment with in this regard.  The Aardenburg-Imaging fade tests might show which ones would be most lightfast.

Finding a good, solid, true sepia or way to get to one easily is an interesting issue.  My guess is that a single LK density red or orange toner might be enough, but I have not done those experiments.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Feb 2, 2010, at 9:20 PM, pr_roark wrote:

> Do you have the Lab A and B values for a 50% midtone of your ideal warm tone?

As you probably have guessed, I am a bit out of my element here. Are you referring to Lab A and B as in convert the image in Photoshop and measure there?

> What I suspect is that the brown you are looking for is both warmer than the carbons we have and has a Lab A that is closer to the Lab B value than what carbon has. Carbon tends to be more of a yellowish warm as opposed to a "chocolate" warm.
> 
> Jon Cone's carbon sepia is probably the best warm 100% carbon inkset. There are members of this forum who can probably give you some Lab coordinates for some papers with that inkset.

That might be helpful. I don't insist on an exact duplicate of what I have gotten with the HP inks, but a definite, unmistakable from across the room, brown is desirable. Longevity is more important to me than exact color, hence my quest in the first place. Maybe the general photographic community is excited about Epson's inks. I am less than impressed, but unfortunately HP seems bent on ignoring what the majority of the world's photographers need and want. They think we all want roll paper printers and bed-sheet size prints. So as I see it, the only option for serious B&W prints is a Epson 17" printer with someone else's inks.

> Finding a good, solid, true sepia or way to get to one easily is an interesting issue. My guess is that a single LK density red or orange toner might be enough, but I have not done those experiments.

My background is analog B&W photography and I know that sepia tones in silver prints had more to do with grain size than composition, though both played a role. Is it possible to alter the size of the carbon particles in suspension and if so, do you think that might change the color? I wonder also if 7 or 8 ink cartridge printers could be equipped with two sets of inks (3-4 cartridges each) one black and one yellow (or red or orange as you suggest), the mixture of which might alter the degree of brown tone so that photographers would have a range of options with one inkset.

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Am I missing something or does inksupply.com not offer a B&W ink set for the Epson 3800/3880?
These web pages appear to be severely out of date and very disorganized. That looks very bad.

David Kachel

I just stumbled across a mention of this. There seem to be lots of people selling it, but there is no Lumijet web site that I can find. Are they out of business?

David Kachel

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
>
> 
> ... Are you referring to Lab A and B as in convert the image in Photoshop and measure there?

I was thinking of the final print Lab A and B for a midtone, as measured by a spectrophotometer.  However, if you're printing on a calibrated color system, maybe the Photoshop measures of the RGB file's tones will be close.

>... Longevity is more important to me than exact color, ...

Carbon is the best we have currently in the inkjet arena.

> My background is analog B&W photography and I know that sepia tones in silver prints had more to do with grain size than composition, though both played a role.

I'm not sure if there is an analogy here, but with carbon it appears the smaller the carbon particle, the warmer is it.  Likewise, the smaller the droplet the warmer.  Thus the 1.5 pl 1400 prints carbon a couple Lab B units warmer than an old 7 pl drop size 7500.

The coating also matters with ink jets.  So, some papers are going to be warmer than others.

> Is it possible to alter the size of the carbon particles in suspension and if so, do you think that might change the color?

At our level, we have to accept what the large pigment suppliers can provide, and they don't much care about us B&W guys.  So, we look to what the companies churn out for the large color market.  Unfortunately for those interested in warm, the large companies would rather have a neutral "core" to their color images.  So K3 LK is more neutral than K2 LK, and HP "LK" (gray) is a blended neutral-cool ink. 

> I wonder also if 7 or 8 ink cartridge printers could be equipped with two sets of inks (3-4 cartridges each) one black and one yellow (or red or orange as you suggest), the mixture of which might alter the degree of brown tone so that photographers would have a range of options with one inkset.

That's essentially what many on this list do now.  The K3 approach, for example, is to have 3 "carbon" (or relatively neutral) inks and then use the color inks to "tone" the carbon.  The idea with most of what we've done for a long time is just to minimize the color inks.  The Epson ABW mode, however, used more color than is necessary just to tone the carbon.  Whether the designers' goals are smoothness or controlling the tone shifts (or both) is something Epson does not tell us.  But, in any case, if you do want to minimize the color inks, you can use QTR  to control each color directly and do it yourself.  You can also pull out the excess color inks and put in more carbon.  

In early inksets I designed (UT2 for the 1280 and UT7 for K2 printers)  I mixed a pre-blended sepia and had it in the Y position.  There were also 2 positions for a cooler ink.  So, people could pull the carbon tone warmer or cooler.  I dropped the sepia because it was not as lightfast as I'd hoped.  However, there are much better color pigments out there now from the major OEMs.  If I wanted the most lightfast sepia today (beyond what carbon can do), I'd go with MIS or Cone carbon and HP or Epson color pigments. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:58 PM, David Kachel wrote:

>> Do you have the Lab A and B values for a 50% midtone of your ideal  
>> warm tone?
>
> As you probably have guessed, I am a bit out of my element here. Are  
> you referring to Lab A and B as in convert the image in Photoshop  
> and measure there?

No need to convert to Lab, just turn one of Photoshop's reporting  
panes to Lab, and sample a value that offers 50 as the first, value  
(L*) and record what the second and third values (a*, b*) are at that  
point.
>
>> What I suspect is that the brown you are looking for is both warmer  
>> than the carbons we have and has a Lab A that is closer to the Lab  
>> B value than what carbon has. Carbon tends to be more of a  
>> yellowish warm as opposed to a "chocolate" warm.
>>
>> Jon Cone's carbon sepia is probably the best warm 100% carbon  
>> inkset. There are members of this forum who can probably give you  
>> some Lab coordinates for some papers with that inkset.
>
> That might be helpful. I don't insist on an exact duplicate of what  
> I have gotten with the HP inks, but a definite, unmistakable from  
> across the room, brown is desirable. Longevity is more important to  
> me than exact color, hence my quest in the first place. Maybe the  
> general photographic community is excited about Epson's inks. I am  
> less than impressed, but unfortunately HP seems bent on ignoring  
> what the majority of the world's photographers need and want. They  
> think we all want roll paper printers and bed-sheet size prints. So  
> as I see it, the only option for serious B&W prints is a Epson 17"  
> printer with someone else's inks.

HP has chosen to neutralize its gray inks as a method of simplifying  
neutral printing. The unfortunate side effect of that it that they can  
only recommend media which happen to give the same neutrality as one  
another, to keep this "hardcoded" neutrality in place.
>
>> Finding a good, solid, true sepia or way to get to one easily is an  
>> interesting issue. My guess is that a single LK density red or  
>> orange toner might be enough, but I have not done those experiments.

That brings us back to my suggestion: that the OEM inks (two grays and  
a black, plus some colorant for the tint) are the most straightforward  
solution for such a tint. As Paul has found out, adding a colorant to  
the gray inks is not desirable, as the different pigments finter and  
settle differentially, making a consistant tone very difficult to   
achieve. So keeping your color in a seperate cart is the simple  
answer. With an OEM Canon inkset, you could do this using a Red ink.  
With the latest Wide Format Epson's it would be an Orange ink instead.  
But I'm not sure that Epson offers a 17" printer with the Orange and  
Green inks, so you may be limited to Canon. The RIP that you are most  
likely to want to use, if you move beyond the standard printer driver  
to limit your ink colors (not really necessary, but I sense you are  
determined to roll something of your own, and not use what the printer  
company has provided), would be QTR, which was developed for the  
Epsons, and has little or no support for other brands. So you might  
end up with a twin bed size 24" Epson in order to get both Orange ink,  
and QTR capabilities. No guarantees that all of this will actually  
produce longer life prints than the standard drivers, however.
>
> My background is analog B&W photography and I know that sepia tones  
> in silver prints had more to do with grain size than composition,  
> though both played a role. Is it possible to alter the size of the  
> carbon particles in suspension and if so, do you think that might  
> change the color? I wonder also if 7 or 8 ink cartridge printers  
> could be equipped with two sets of inks (3-4 cartridges each) one  
> black and one yellow (or red or orange as you suggest), the mixture  
> of which might alter the degree of brown tone so that photographers  
> would have a range of options with one inkset.

Trying to reinvent carbon ink, particle size, suspension issues,  
etc... is Alchemy, not printmaking. If thats your interest, then I'll  
leave you to the pleasures of modern Alchemy! It certainly has been an  
interesting field for Paul and for Jon Cone, but everyone else that I  
have worked with in that field has given up, gone bankrupt, or died...  
not sure that the deaths are related, but use a good respirator, just  
in case!

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Funny you should ask - just used it for the first time - 24" roll- on a Epson 7600 with Cone K7SE inkset - I used the curve in QTR for 2880 Bradford Natural white - The papers look really similar  - didn't take any measurements - but the image went from close to full black - (sunglasses) through skin tones to some really light grays  - and looked really good - I will be trying it out on some of my "darker " images in a bit - but I am really pleased at this point - especially at being able to use the Bradford curve -


Berel Lutsky
Associate Professor of Art
University of Wisconsin - Manitowoc
blutsky@...<mailto:blutsky@...>
920-683-4735
Fax: 920-683-4776
"Sometimes our ideas of history look more like neurosis than an appetite for understanding ...."
Charles  Bowden




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been following this thread with great interest, and I've got an  
inquiry that's very similar to the the original poster's. Eventually,  
I'd like to move from my current printing method to an all-carbon  
inkset, but I'm concerned that I won't get the color I'm accustomed to.

My setup is this – I print with an HP B9180, using a color workflow,  
on Entrada Bright. My B&W work is split toned in Lightroom using the  
following settings: Highlights = Hue 42, Saturation 6; Balance = -14;  
Shadows = Hue 59, Saturation 12. The B&W work on my site uses the  
split toning settings I've described, but I've varied the balance  
setting, -14 for the current work, and +45 for the early (scanned  
film) work.

My monitor, a 30" Apple Display, is calibrated with a Spyder2 to 5000K  
with a Gamma of 2.2, and a white point of 120 cdm2.

With these settings, I'm able to get a very good color match in  
daylight between my display and my prints. Aside from the different in  
surface (matte) I'm getting a very close color match to prints that I  
made 30 years ago on Portriga (air-dried) gloss, developed in Dektol  
1:1 with moderate selenium toning.

My question is this: Will an all-carbon inkset, like the E6 or E3 on  
an Epson get me the kind of B&W color I'm looking for, or would I be  
better off sticking with my full color (toned) workflow? Without  
seeing actual prints, it would be a very expensive crapshoot for me to  
invest in a dedicated B&W machine and a custom inkset. I just don't  
have that kind of money, and part of the reason that I'm considering  
setting up a dedicated B&W machine is to cut my ink costs.

Thanks in advance - I'll go back to lurking and learning now...

Dave Reichert

http://www.davereichertphoto.com/

I WILL be watching the replies with great interest. I have similiar questions.
Craig




________________________________

From: Dave <cowcreekroad@yahoo.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 1:24:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Brown Tones w/ Carbon inks

I've been following this thread with great interest, and I've got an  
inquiry that's very similar to the the original poster's. Eventually,  
I'd like to move from my current printing method to an all-carbon  
inkset, but I'm concerned that I won't get the color I'm accustomed to.

My setup is this – I print with an HP B9180, using a color workflow,  
on Entrada Bright. My B&W work is split toned in Lightroom using the  
following settings: Highlights = Hue 42, Saturation 6; Balance = -14;  
Shadows = Hue 59, Saturation 12. The B&W work on my site uses the  
split toning settings I've described, but I've varied the balance  
setting, -14 for the current work, and +45 for the early (scanned  
film) work.

My monitor, a 30" Apple Display, is calibrated with a Spyder2 to 5000K  
with a Gamma of 2.2, and a white point of 120 cdm2.

With these settings, I'm able to get a very good color match in  
daylight between my display and my prints. Aside from the different in  
surface (matte) I'm getting a very close color match to prints that I  
made 30 years ago on Portriga (air-dried) gloss, developed in Dektol  
1:1 with moderate selenium toning.

My question is this: Will an all-carbon inkset, like the E6 or E3 on  
an Epson get me the kind of B&W color I'm looking for, or would I be  
better off sticking with my full color (toned) workflow? Without  
seeing actual prints, it would be a very expensive crapshoot for me to  
invest in a dedicated B&W machine and a custom inkset. I just don't  
have that kind of money, and part of the reason that I'm considering  
setting up a dedicated B&W machine is to cut my ink costs.

Thanks in advance - I'll go back to lurking and learning now...

Dave Reichert

http://www.davereichertphoto.com/




------------------------------------

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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,

No answer for you but a curious question.   Why do you find the need to move the balance from -14 to +45 for the old versus new work?  Although the changes are quite subtle.
Are you trying to imitate the Portriga for the old and just new settings for the new work?    Just curious as it seems if the old scanned work is greyscale then it wouldnt make any difference.

By the way I did enjoy browsing your images.  Love that style.

Regards,
Paul

On Feb 3, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Dave wrote:

> I've been following this thread with great interest, and I've got an  
> inquiry that's very similar to the the original poster's. Eventually,  
> I'd like to move from my current printing method to an all-carbon  
> inkset, but I'm concerned that I won't get the color I'm accustomed to.
> 
> My setup is this – I print with an HP B9180, using a color workflow,  
> on Entrada Bright. My B&W work is split toned in Lightroom using the  
> following settings: Highlights = Hue 42, Saturation 6; Balance = -14;  
> Shadows = Hue 59, Saturation 12. The B&W work on my site uses the  
> split toning settings I've described, but I've varied the balance  
> setting, -14 for the current work, and +45 for the early (scanned  
> film) work.
> 
> My monitor, a 30" Apple Display, is calibrated with a Spyder2 to 5000K  
> with a Gamma of 2.2, and a white point of 120 cdm2.
> 
> With these settings, I'm able to get a very good color match in  
> daylight between my display and my prints. Aside from the different in  
> surface (matte) I'm getting a very close color match to prints that I  
> made 30 years ago on Portriga (air-dried) gloss, developed in Dektol  
> 1:1 with moderate selenium toning.
> 
> My question is this: Will an all-carbon inkset, like the E6 or E3 on  
> an Epson get me the kind of B&W color I'm looking for, or would I be  
> better off sticking with my full color (toned) workflow? Without  
> seeing actual prints, it would be a very expensive crapshoot for me to  
> invest in a dedicated B&W machine and a custom inkset. I just don't  
> have that kind of money, and part of the reason that I'm considering  
> setting up a dedicated B&W machine is to cut my ink costs.
> 
> Thanks in advance - I'll go back to lurking and learning now...
> 
> Dave Reichert
> 
> http://www.davereichertphoto.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

IMHO like most things, the key to cost containment is in sweat equity and DIY. Getting into dedicated B&W printing need not be all that expensive either for inks or machines. It does require lots of time,has a steep learning curve and requires considerable patience along the way. A few on the list might even replace that last term with "a degree of obstinate stupidity". I ,of course, wouldn't be one of those few ;)
If you feel you should be making a change in the way you are doing things but aren't certain, my suggestion would be that you take a look at Paul Roark's web site as well as search back in time on this group for his various postings on B&W solutions(be prepared for a lot of reading up on the topic but it will be worth your time).
There are various ways to get whatever colors you are looking for.

Regards
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dave <cowcreekroad@...> wrote:

>
> My question is this: Will an all-carbon inkset, like the E6 or E3 on  
> an Epson get me the kind of B&W color I'm looking for, or would I be  
> better off sticking with my full color (toned) workflow? Without  
> seeing actual prints, it would be a very expensive crapshoot for me to  
> invest in a dedicated B&W machine and a custom inkset. I just don't  
> have that kind of money, and part of the reason that I'm considering  
> setting up a dedicated B&W machine is to cut my ink costs.
> 
> Thanks in advance - I'll go back to lurking and learning now...
> 
> Dave Reichert
> 
> http://www.davereichertphoto.com/
>

On Feb 3, 2010, at 2:31 PM, dlruckus wrote:

> There are various ways to get whatever colors you are looking for.

Using only pigments? Otherwise, might as well stick with OEM inks.

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good question Paul, but I'm not sure I've really got a good answer...

I started off using the -14 setting, but just before I uploaded the  
early work to my site, I had second thoughts about the level of toning  
and I decided to cool that group down a bit (a little longer in the  
selenium). The +45 setting made exactly the change I was looking for.

The recent work (Orphans, etc.) is all done at -14, and I've pretty  
much standardized on that now. It's more hard-edged than the old film  
work was, and I felt like it could use a little different toning  
treatment to soften it up. On Portriga, it would be like pulling the  
print from the selenium a little earlier, and letting more of that  
nice warm Portriga chlorobromide color remain.

In any event, based on comparisons with my old wet prints, I'm getting  
a good match within that range. I was never very consistent with my  
toning times in the darkroom. I varied them to suit the image.

Thank you for the kind words about the pictures.

All best,
Dave

On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:55 PM, Paul Grant wrote:

> Dave,
>
> No answer for you but a curious question.   Why do you find the need  
> to move the balance from -14 to +45 for the old versus new work?   
> Although the changes are quite subtle.
> Are you trying to imitate the Portriga for the old and just new  
> settings for the new work?    Just curious as it seems if the old  
> scanned work is greyscale then it wouldnt make any difference.
>
> By the way I did enjoy browsing your images.  Love that style.
>
> Regards,
> Paul
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Dave wrote:
>
>> I've been following this thread with great interest, and I've got an
>> inquiry that's very similar to the the original poster's. Eventually,
>> I'd like to move from my current printing method to an all-carbon
>> inkset, but I'm concerned that I won't get the color I'm accustomed  
>> to.
>>
>> My setup is this – I print with an HP B9180, using a color workflow,
>> on Entrada Bright. My B&W work is split toned in Lightroom using the
>> following settings: Highlights = Hue 42, Saturation 6; Balance = -14;
>> Shadows = Hue 59, Saturation 12. The B&W work on my site uses the
>> split toning settings I've described, but I've varied the balance
>> setting, -14 for the current work, and +45 for the early (scanned
>> film) work.
>>
>> My monitor, a 30" Apple Display, is calibrated with a Spyder2 to  
>> 5000K
>> with a Gamma of 2.2, and a white point of 120 cdm2.
>>
>> With these settings, I'm able to get a very good color match in
>> daylight between my display and my prints. Aside from the different  
>> in
>> surface (matte) I'm getting a very close color match to prints that I
>> made 30 years ago on Portriga (air-dried) gloss, developed in Dektol
>> 1:1 with moderate selenium toning.
>>
>> My question is this: Will an all-carbon inkset, like the E6 or E3 on
>> an Epson get me the kind of B&W color I'm looking for, or would I be
>> better off sticking with my full color (toned) workflow? Without
>> seeing actual prints, it would be a very expensive crapshoot for me  
>> to
>> invest in a dedicated B&W machine and a custom inkset. I just don't
>> have that kind of money, and part of the reason that I'm considering
>> setting up a dedicated B&W machine is to cut my ink costs.
>>
>> Thanks in advance - I'll go back to lurking and learning now...
>>
>> Dave Reichert
>>
>> http://www.davereichertphoto.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
>> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
>> visiting this same page.
>>
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
>> to keep them short.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
>> from the membership without notice.
>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
>> removed from the membership.
>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
>> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
>> group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines”  
>> in the Files section:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>
>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
>> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
>> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
>> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
>> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL  
>> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
>> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
>> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
>> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
>> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
>> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
>> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the  
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH  
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE  
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR  
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP;  
> OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I'm willing to put in the time, as long as I know I'll be starting out  
with an inkset that's in the right ballpark. When I did darkroom work,  
it didn't take long for me to find a paper/developer/toner combination  
that I was happy with. Had I continued in that process, and had Agfa  
not re-formulated and then discontinued Portriga, I would have been  
content using that paper for the rest of my life. That was a  
relatively easy decision - buy a box of every commonly available  
paper, and go at it.

This is a bit more difficult. I can still experiment with papers  
fairly easily, but I'd rather not run through the gamut of inksets. I  
just can't afford to do that.

I've spent a lot of time on Paul Roark's site - it's a wonderful and  
very generous resource, but frankly, I'm not yet up to it  
technically.  I've got PrintFix Pro, along with the  
spectrocolorimeter, and I could probably knuckle down and learn about  
LAB values and Dmax, but I'd like to take advantage of the research  
others have done in order to find a starting point first.



On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:31 PM, dlruckus wrote:

> IMHO like most things, the key to cost containment is in sweat  
> equity and DIY. Getting into dedicated B&W printing need not be all  
> that expensive either for inks or machines. It does require lots of  
> time,has a steep learning curve and requires considerable patience  
> along the way. A few on the list might even replace that last term  
> with "a degree of obstinate stupidity". I ,of course, wouldn't be  
> one of those few ;)
> If you feel you should be making a change in the way you are doing  
> things but aren't certain, my suggestion would be that you take a  
> look at Paul Roark's web site as well as search back in time on this  
> group for his various postings on B&W solutions(be prepared for a  
> lot of reading up on the topic but it will be worth your time).
> There are various ways to get whatever colors you are looking for.
>
> Regards
> Duane
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing  
aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what  
I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the  
light. If I can find an all-carbon inkset that fits within the color  
range I'm looking for, I'll go for it. I also like the idea of being  
able to achieve more control over the tonal range in my prints, using  
QTR.

All I need now is a recommendation for an all-carbon inkset that will  
fit within my chosen color range without the addition of color  
pigments. That's why I posted my settings - I'm hoping someone on the  
list can say, "Yeah. I know what your trying to get. My prints with  
(insert inkset) would give you that kind of color."


On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:40 PM, David Kachel wrote:

>
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 2:31 PM, dlruckus wrote:
>
> > There are various ways to get whatever colors you are looking for.
>
> Using only pigments? Otherwise, might as well stick with OEM inks.
>
> David Kachel
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,

You want to get a sample set from Jon Cone.

He has a number of inksets that might fit what your looking for.    And his sample pack is a great way to see whats there.

Paul
On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:10 PM, Dave wrote:

> The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing 
> aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what 
> I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the 
> light. If I can find an all-carbon inkset that fits within the color 
> range I'm looking for, I'll go for it. I also like the idea of being 
> able to achieve more control over the tonal range in my prints, using 
> QTR.
> 
> All I need now is a recommendation for an all-carbon inkset that will 
> fit within my chosen color range without the addition of color 
> pigments. That's why I posted my settings - I'm hoping someone on the 
> list can say, "Yeah. I know what your trying to get. My prints with 
> (insert inkset) would give you that kind of color."
> 
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:40 PM, David Kachel wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Feb 3, 2010, at 2:31 PM, dlruckus wrote:
> >
> > > There are various ways to get whatever colors you are looking for.
> >
> > Using only pigments? Otherwise, might as well stick with OEM inks.
> >
> > David Kachel
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you Paul. I'll do that.

On Feb 3, 2010, at 2:13 PM, Paul Grant wrote:

> Dave,
>
> You want to get a sample set from Jon Cone.
>
> He has a number of inksets that might fit what your looking for.     
> And his sample pack is a great way to see whats there.
>
> Paul
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:10 PM, Dave wrote:
>
>> The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing
>> aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what
>> I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the
>> light. If I can find an all-carbon inkset that fits within the color
>> range I'm looking for, I'll go for it. I also like the idea of being
>> able to achieve more control over the tonal range in my prints, using
>> QTR.
>>
>> All I need now is a recommendation for an all-carbon inkset that will
>> fit within my chosen color range without the addition of color
>> pigments. That's why I posted my settings - I'm hoping someone on the
>> list can say, "Yeah. I know what your trying to get. My prints with
>> (insert inkset) would give you that kind of color."
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:40 PM, David Kachel wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 3, 2010, at 2:31 PM, dlruckus wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are various ways to get whatever colors you are looking for.
>>>
>>> Using only pigments? Otherwise, might as well stick with OEM inks.
>>>
>>> David Kachel
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the  
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH  
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE  
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR  
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP;  
> OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Paul Grant wrote:

> You want to get a sample set from Jon Cone.

I couldn't find any similar offers of sample sets for MIS inks. Do they offer them? And if so, where?

David Kachel

Dave,

I have not found any on the MIS either?    I have tried a couple of them in the past and had trouble with the cartridges and lots of frustration on my OLD 2200 so I am looking to upgrade with the 1400.

I also run a 3800 using OEM inks and Lightroom settings very close to yours.     As an FYI I find that I can get a wider variety of split tone looks using QTR.

Paul
On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:23 PM, David Kachel wrote:

> 
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Paul Grant wrote:
> 
> > You want to get a sample set from Jon Cone.
> 
> I couldn't find any similar offers of sample sets for MIS inks. Do they offer them? And if so, where?
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,

You want to get a sample set from Jon Cone.

He has a number of inksets that might fit what your looking for.    And his sample pack is a great way to see whats there.

Paul
On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:10 PM, Dave wrote:

> The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing 
> aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what 
> I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the 
> light. If I can find an all-carbon inkset that fits within the color 
> range I'm looking for, I'll go for it. I also like the idea of being 
> able to achieve more control over the tonal range in my prints, using 
> QTR.
> 
> All I need now is a recommendation for an all-carbon inkset that will 
> fit within my chosen color range without the addition of color 
> pigments. That's why I posted my settings - I'm hoping someone on the 
> list can say, "Yeah. I know what your trying to get. My prints with 
> (insert inkset) would give you that kind of color."
> 
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:40 PM, David Kachel wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Feb 3, 2010, at 2:31 PM, dlruckus wrote:
> >
> > > There are various ways to get whatever colors you are looking for.
> >
> > Using only pigments? Otherwise, might as well stick with OEM inks.
> >
> > David Kachel
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 3, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Dave wrote:

> The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing
> aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what
> I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the
> light.

True, but there is no visible metamerism in AWB, or even in Color Mode  
neutral prints on any of my Canon, HP, or Epson inkjets that use  
multiple grays in the OEM inksets, so that is not actually a reason  
for going carbon.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:26 PM, Paul Grant wrote:

> I have not found any on the MIS either?    I have tried a couple of them in the past and had trouble with the cartridges and lots of frustration on my OLD 2200 so I am looking to upgrade with the 1400.
> 
> I also run a 3800 using OEM inks and Lightroom settings very close to yours.     As an FYI I find that I can get a wider variety of split tone looks using QTR.


Despite the fact that OEM inks are clearly not what they should be yet with regard to longevity and that visually the aftermarket monotone ink sets have something unique to offer, I am getting an initial impression based on the paucity of offerings and the hopelessly out of date web sites involved, that these B&W specialized ink sets are not long for this world. That would be a shame.

Am I reading this correctly?

David Kachel

On Feb 3, 2010, at 4:36 PM, David Kachel wrote:

> Despite the fact that OEM inks are clearly not what they should be  
> yet with regard to longevity and that visually the aftermarket  
> monotone ink sets have something unique to offer, I am getting an  
> initial impression based on the paucity of offerings and the  
> hopelessly out of date web sites involved, that these B&W  
> specialized ink sets are not long for this world. That would be a  
> shame.
>
> Am I reading this correctly?

Thats certainly a concern even amongst the biggest advocates of such  
sets (many of whom you will find on this list). Between legal  
decisions favoring the printer companies, newer models that are  
progressively harder to hack third party inks into, and the fact that  
the OEM B&W options are "good enough" for many users, the overall B&W  
specialty market is shrinking. I worked with multiple suppliers on  
multiple different B&W inksets over the years, and have watched these  
companies leave the field, or cease further development. MIS and Cone  
would be the main survivors at this point in time.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's certainly not very pronounced, but I see it in the light midtones  
of my B9180 prints.


On Feb 3, 2010, at 2:34 PM, C D Tobie wrote:

> n Feb 3, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Dave wrote:
>
> > The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing
> > aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what
> > I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the
> > light.
>
> True, but there is no visible metamerism in AWB, or even in Color Mode
> neutral prints on any of my Canon, HP, or Epson inkjets that use
> multiple grays in the OEM inksets, so that is not actually a reason
> for going carbon.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:45 PM, C D Tobie wrote:

> Thats certainly a concern even amongst the biggest advocates of such 
> sets (many of whom you will find on this list). Between legal 
> decisions favoring the printer companies, newer models that are 
> progressively harder to hack third party inks into,

So how have Cone and MIS escaped the corporate wrath of Epson?

> and the fact that 
> the OEM B&W options are "good enough" for many users

Ah, the ever present lowest common denominator photographer who is always eager to display his ignorance and loudly announce how this or that product is "good enough".
I think he started shouting "good enough" when cameras reached 1 megapixel.

> , the overall B&W 
> specialty market is shrinking. I worked with multiple suppliers on 
> multiple different B&W inksets over the years, and have watched these 
> companies leave the field, or cease further development. MIS and Cone 
> would be the main survivors at this point in time.


That is REALLY discouraging. They don't make adequate inks yet they don't want anyone to get them elsewhere.
I am tempted to buy a set of inks if for no other reason than to thumb my nose in Epson's general direction. How much business do they think they would lose to B&W photographers who demand higher quality than they can deliver!

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 3, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Dave wrote:

> It's certainly not very pronounced, but I see it in the light midtones
> of my B9180 prints.

The B9180 does not have two grays, HP dodges that issue by talking  
about "three blacks" but two of those are black, only one is a gray.  
Printers with two grays seem to eliminate this issue.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 3, 2010, at 5:06 PM, David Kachel wrote:

>> Thats certainly a concern even amongst the biggest advocates of such
>> sets (many of whom you will find on this list). Between legal
>> decisions favoring the printer companies, newer models that are
>> progressively harder to hack third party inks into,
>
> So how have Cone and MIS escaped the corporate wrath of Epson?

By reducing their product lines to only items that do not cross the  
legal line, such as prefilled cartridges...
>
>> and the fact that
>> the OEM B&W options are "good enough" for many users
>
> Ah, the ever present lowest common denominator photographer who is  
> always eager to display his ignorance and loudly announce how this  
> or that product is "good enough".
> I think he started shouting "good enough" when cameras reached 1  
> megapixel.

Photogs come in all favors, and most deserve more respect than you are  
offering them. Many create images that don't interest me, but that  
meet their own needs. And they provide the size market required to  
justify the product development that has produced the amazing inkjet  
printers now available to us, for quite reasonable prices. So we can  
be screaming snobs about this, but without those people, we would  
still be in the darkroom (and for that matter, most of our favorite  
darkroom products were developed under similar circumstances...)
>
>> , the overall B&W
>> specialty market is shrinking. I worked with multiple suppliers on
>> multiple different B&W inksets over the years, and have watched these
>> companies leave the field, or cease further development. MIS and Cone
>> would be the main survivors at this point in time.
>
>
> That is REALLY discouraging. They don't make adequate inks yet they  
> don't want anyone to get them elsewhere.
> I am tempted to buy a set of inks if for no other reason than to  
> thumb my nose in Epson's general direction. How much business do  
> they think they would lose to B&W photographers who demand higher  
> quality than they can deliver!

Yawn... I've been living in this world for the better part of two  
decades, as have many others on this list. Forgive me of your  
newcomer's angst  and radical zeal does not excite much response any  
longer.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fair enough.


On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:19 PM, C D Tobie wrote:

> The B9180 does not have two grays, HP dodges that issue by talking
> about "three blacks" but two of those are black, only one is a gray.
> Printers with two grays seem to eliminate this issue.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 3, 2010, at 4:27 PM, C D Tobie wrote:

> Yawn... I've been living in this world for the better part of two 
> decades, as have many others on this list. Forgive me of your 
> newcomer's angst and radical zeal does not excite much response any 
> longer.


Speaking of "screaming snobs"!

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Additionally, metamerism failure is a fact of life, and basically a matter of degree. It also exists in carbon only ink prints (which is still a a mythical object whose existence is somewhat suspect), but is more subjectively easier to live with than some of the more pronounced examples done with older inksets or inadequate GCR schemes.
I print monochrome a variety of ways, with a variety of inks, and after years of concern now see it everywhere to some degree. It's called physics.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Dave wrote:
> 
> > The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing
> > aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what
> > I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the
> > light.
> 
> True, but there is no visible metamerism in AWB, or even in Color Mode  
> neutral prints on any of my Canon, HP, or Epson inkjets that use  
> multiple grays in the OEM inksets, so that is not actually a reason  
> for going carbon.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

+1

I especially like "It's called physics"

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

>
> Additionally, metamerism failure is a fact of life, and basically a matter of degree. It also exists in carbon only ink prints (which is still a a mythical object whose existence is somewhat suspect), but is more subjectively easier to live with than some of the more pronounced examples done with older inksets or inadequate GCR schemes.
> I print monochrome a variety of ways, with a variety of inks, and after years of concern now see it everywhere to some degree. It's called physics.
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Feb 3, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Dave wrote:
> > 
> > > The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing
> > > aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what
> > > I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the
> > > light.
> > 
> > True, but there is no visible metamerism in AWB, or even in Color Mode  
> > neutral prints on any of my Canon, HP, or Epson inkjets that use  
> > multiple grays in the OEM inksets, so that is not actually a reason  
> > for going carbon.
> > 
> > C. David Tobie
> > Global Product Technology Manager
> > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > CDTobie@
> > 
> > 
> >   ----------
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Datacolor
> > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

gained momentum during the Age Of Enlightenment, becoming somewhat marginalized in contemporary times...

I know I know, very OT... sorry
T

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:

>
> +1
> 
> I especially like "It's called physics"
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > Additionally, metamerism failure is a fact of life, and basically a matter of degree. It also exists in carbon only ink prints (which is still a a mythical object whose existence is somewhat suspect), but is more subjectively easier to live with than some of the more pronounced examples done with older inksets or inadequate GCR schemes.
> > I print monochrome a variety of ways, with a variety of inks, and after years of concern now see it everywhere to some degree. It's called physics.
> > Tyler
> > http://www.custom-digital.com/
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > On Feb 3, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Dave wrote:
> > > 
> > > > The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing
> > > > aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what
> > > > I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the
> > > > light.
> > > 
> > > True, but there is no visible metamerism in AWB, or even in Color Mode  
> > > neutral prints on any of my Canon, HP, or Epson inkjets that use  
> > > multiple grays in the OEM inksets, so that is not actually a reason  
> > > for going carbon.
> > > 
> > > C. David Tobie
> > > Global Product Technology Manager
> > > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > > CDTobie@
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   ----------
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Datacolor
> > > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Dave <cowcreekroad@...> wrote:
>
>...  
> I'd like to move from my current printing method to an 
> all-carbon  inkset, but I'm concerned that I won't get 
> the color I'm accustomed to.

100% carbon inksets are basically limited to the Cone sepia, MIS LK, etc., (both relatively warm but not full on sepia), 100% Eboni on 1.5 pl printers (1400, 1800, 1900, etc.) (the most neutral carbon), and dilute Eboni carbon (Eboni-6 and Carbon-6).  The Eboni/Carbon-6 inksets are medium warm.  They can be neutral-cool only when printed on Premier Art Smooth BW paper and in a non-1.5 pl printer.

See the various PDFs I put on line to see the tonal information with respect to Eboni inksets.

 
> My setup is this – I print with an HP B9180, using a color workflow,  
> on Entrada Bright. My B&W work is split toned in Lightroom using the  
> following settings: Highlights = Hue 42, Saturation 6; Balance = -14;  
> Shadows = Hue 59, Saturation 12. The B&W work on my site uses the  
> split toning settings I've described, but I've varied the balance  
> setting, -14 for the current work, and +45 for the early (scanned  
> film) work.

I have no way to know what the print tone is with this explanation.  I read 21-step test strips and graph the Lab A & B results.  I think that is the best way to compare inkset tones.  It shows all the split tones, maximum warmth, paper white, etc.  

Eboni-6 and Carbon-6 tones are essentially the same.  

See page 9 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHp.pdf to see the tones (in terms of Lab B) of the papers I usually use.  Note that this graph also has some tone maps for prints that use a software mix of Carbon-6 and HP-PK based inks.  (I use HP PK for glossy and cooler matte prints.)


> I'm getting a very close color match to prints that I  
> made 30 years ago on Portriga (air-dried) gloss, developed in Dektol  
> 1:1 with moderate selenium toning.

I think most of us try at first to match what we did in the darkroom.   I printed rather cool Polymax with Dektol and found I liked neutral inkjet prints initially.  Now I've moved to a warmer standard and find some of the early inkjet work looks too bluish. 


> My question is this: Will an all-carbon inkset, like the E6 or E3 on  
> an Epson get me the kind of B&W color I'm looking for,

Print a 21-step test print and have someone read it with a spectro.  Then we can compare results.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Feb 3, 2010, at 7:57 PM, pr_roark wrote:

> 100% carbon inksets are basically limited to the Cone sepia, MIS LK, etc., 


So what is in the other sets that is not carbon?


David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
>
> ...carbon only ink prints (which is still a a mythical object whose existence is somewhat suspect), ...

Do you think Cone Carbon Sepia and MIS Eboni are not 100% carbon pigment inksets in the sense that the image forming substance includes some colorants?  

The Aardenburg-Imaging fade test results certainly look very different than the blended B&W inksets tested.  I've summarized the 20 MLux-Hr midtone results here: 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/20MLux-AaI-Carb-v-Blended.jpg

Note particularly the change in the Lab A values.

I think these test results are most consistent with the 2 carbon inksets shown (Cone Carbon Sepia and MIS Eboni MK-3) being, in fact, composed of carbon pigments with no colorants added.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
...
> 100% carbon inksets are basically limited to the Cone sepia, MIS LK, etc., (both relatively warm but not full on sepia), 100% Eboni on 1.5 pl printers (1400, 1800, 1900, etc.) (the most neutral carbon), and dilute Eboni carbon (Eboni-6 and Carbon-6)...

Paul, without hijacking the thread, let me just interject that the only inks we really absolutely know are 100% carbon are those we know you mix yourself, and the older Carbon Sepia Piezotones, based on statements by Jon and Bill Bergh. I don't recall a similar statement made for the K6-7 Sepia Cone set, and there have been explanations of the K7 sets about going to great lengths to hue match each density, not merely dilute, via some method, including the sepia version.
Perhaps it's rhetorical, but I think we are making assumptions about the make up of various ink sets based on the testing results. 
That's logical to be sure, but I think if there is more going on with all of this than is obvious. The HP inks are testing well, and I seem to recall they are not 100% carbon.
Hence my statement that the 100% carbon ink print may be an illusive beast.. it's just not all adding up neatly in my pea brain.
Tyler

On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:57 PM, pr_roark wrote:

> Print a 21-step test print and have someone read it with a spectro.  
> Then we can compare results.


Thank you Paul.

I assume this file and my Datacolor spectrocolorimeter will get me  
there.
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Spectro.pdf

Should I post my results to this thread, or offlist?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
> ... 
> So what is in the other sets that is not carbon?

Most of the B&W inksets are a blend of carbon and colors.  We can't make a totally neutral inkset from carbon.  The term "carbon" inkset has been used rather loosely.  I try to be explicit and call things like the Eboni inksets I use "100% carbon" to clearly indicate that I'm not adding color inks to them.

I believe the only 100% carbon inksets are Cone Carbon Sepia, the Eboni based ones (1800 3-MK, Eboni-6, Carbon-6).  One can also print black only with a number of inksets and achieve a 100% carbon image.  The MIS K4 Lk, etc. are also carbon (from what I can tell) and are used in various MIS inksets as the "warm" version or curve.

(Of course all pigment inks have a clear base suspension medium, but I'm talking about the parts of the inkset that form the image -- the pigments or dyes.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Dave <cowcreekroad@...> wrote:
>
> 
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:57 PM, pr_roark wrote:
> 
> > Print a 21-step test print and have someone read it with a spectro.  
> > Then we can compare results.
> 
> 
> Thank you Paul.
> 
> I assume this file and my Datacolor spectrocolorimeter will get me  
> there.
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Spectro.pdf
> 
> Should I post my results to this thread, or offlist?

If the results are posted here, it'll probably be a good exercise.  If you are not familiar with graphing, I'll pull the results into Excel and post a graph.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On 03/02/2010 Dave wrote:
>  Had I continued in that process, and had Agfa  
> not re-formulated and then discontinued Portriga, I would have been  
> content using that paper for the rest of my life.

Ha! Same story here, but it was Record Rapid that Agfa ruined by taking 
out all the noxious Cadmium, then withdrawing half the grades, and which I 
now sort-of emulate using a B9180. On Harman FB AL it is very close, if 
only the surface was a little subtler.

As far as I know what you want is outside the scope of pure carbon. Jon 
Cone's Piezography Selenium inks were an approximation, but I was never 
happy with the DMax, paper fussiness (matte only, and only HPR really 
suited me), or the interminable Epson clog problems I had from printing 
intermittently.
-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

sorry I was working on the previous reply before I came back and saw this... No I make no assumptions about the ink compositions other than believing outright what you say about yours, and what solid plain statements have been made about the Piezotone Carbons. Perhaps my last post explains.
I certainly think, based on what we have before us, that given an artistically acceptable print hue, a pure carbon approach is the most sensible given longevity as the over riding priority.
I'm just tossing in that there is a great deal of proprietory information not available to us, and some of that which we are proceeding on is actually educated guesses. I'm also not insisting that matters much, I just wish I knew a lot more, and am willing to accept that there is more to know, from a purely scientific standpoint.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > ...carbon only ink prints (which is still a a mythical object whose existence is somewhat suspect), ...
> 
> Do you think Cone Carbon Sepia and MIS Eboni are not 100% carbon pigment inksets in the sense that the image forming substance includes some colorants?  
> 
> The Aardenburg-Imaging fade test results certainly look very different than the blended B&W inksets tested.  I've summarized the 20 MLux-Hr midtone results here: 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/20MLux-AaI-Carb-v-Blended.jpg
> 
> Note particularly the change in the Lab A values.
> 
> I think these test results are most consistent with the 2 carbon inksets shown (Cone Carbon Sepia and MIS Eboni MK-3) being, in fact, composed of carbon pigments with no colorants added.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
>
>... the only inks we really absolutely know are 100% carbon are those we know you mix yourself, and the older Carbon Sepia Piezotones, based on statements by Jon and Bill Bergh. I don't recall a similar statement made for the K6-7 Sepia Cone set,...

Jon will have to clarify that.  You're right, the tests I'm aware of are the Carbon Sepia Piezotones.


>... The HP inks are testing well, and I seem to recall they 
> are not 100% carbon.

HP has done an excellent job of blending carbon with colors.  However, while the Lab A results are quite stable, there is more variance overall and more fading than the inksets we know are 100% carbon.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>
> ... there is a great deal of proprietory information not available to us, ...

So true.  

Mark at Aardenburg-Imaging is giving us a lot more information now by which we can at see whether the bottom line is reasonably consistent with the claims. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I get imperfect prints more often than I would like that could be saved if I could spot them in the conventional analog sense.
I have saved inks from my expended B9180 cartridges to use as spotting colors but oddly, they dry on matte papers with a surface sheen that is different from the same inks applied to the paper via the printer. 

Can anyone shed any light on this? Is there anything I can do to get these inks to dry with the same sheen, that is to say, matte? I have also tried some Spotone colors with similar results, though oddly, less so.
> 

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>I have saved inks from my expended B9180 cartridges to use as  
spotting colors but oddly, they dry on matte papers with a surface  
sheen that is different from the same inks applied to the paper via  
the printer.

Chances are that the ink you are spotting on is being applied more  
heavily, and exceeding the paper's ink limit, so that ink stands on  
top of the paper, causing this visibly different sheen. Unless you  
have some way of airbrushing the ink on, through a mask, to the spot  
in need, then I can't see any way you would be able to apply it thinly  
enough.

Another situation is popped coatings, where the speck does not have  
the surface coating layer, so even of it were printed on an inkjet, it  
would look different than the surrounding surface. This is more common  
on older paper formulations, with chalky coatings, rather than newer,  
more elastic coatings.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Feb 3, 2010, at 11:13 PM, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> I have saved inks from my expended B9180 cartridges to use as  
> spotting colors but oddly, they dry on matte papers with a surface  
> sheen that is different from the same inks applied to the paper via  
> the printer.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You will have to be very lucky indeed to get exactly what you are looking for with a straight,only carbon,ink set as things stand today.
With a fixed set the only option for change is in trying different papers until you find one you like the image color on.Like it or not you will probably find compromise a necessity.

As regards the metamerism issue,none of the various carbon mix B&W inks(including those with color pigment content) that I have used for several years now have been a problem. Minimizing the use of color in them seems to obviate the trouble.Longevity without change is the main issue with color content but what you are currently using might not do better and is possibly much worse on that score.

The advice to check samples is well considered.
Regards
Duane

  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dave <cowcreekroad@...> wrote:

>
> The idea of an all-carbon approach appeals to me. The most appealing  
> aspect of it is the lack of illuminant metameric failure. From what  
> I've read here, the color of all-carbon ink doesn't change with the  
> light. If I can find an all-carbon inkset that fits within the color  
> range I'm looking for, I'll go for it. I also like the idea of being  
> able to achieve more control over the tonal range in my prints, using  
> QTR.
> 
> All I need now is a recommendation for an all-carbon inkset that will  
> fit within my chosen color range without the addition of color  
> pigments. That's why I posted my settings - I'm hoping someone on the  
> list can say, "Yeah. I know what your trying to get. My prints with  
> (insert inkset) would give you that kind of color."
> 
> 
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:40 PM, David Kachel wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Feb 3, 2010, at 2:31 PM, dlruckus wrote:
> >
> > > There are various ways to get whatever colors you are looking for.
> >
> > Using only pigments? Otherwise, might as well stick with OEM inks.
> >
> > David Kachel
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

David Kachel schreef:
> I get imperfect prints more often than I would like that could be saved if I could spot them in the conventional analog sense.
> I have saved inks from my expended B9180 cartridges to use as spotting colors but oddly, they dry on matte papers with a surface sheen that is different from the same inks applied to the paper via the printer. 
> 
> Can anyone shed any light on this? Is there anything I can do to get these inks to dry with the same sheen, that is to say, matte? I have also tried some Spotone colors with similar results, though oddly, less so.
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 

Dilute the spotting light (light) grey ink with gloss enhancer and apply 
it with a fillable drawing pen, 0.13 mm thick in pointillistic manner, 
control on ink amount improves that way.

Use watercolor pencils from a good brand, sharp point and a wet sponge 
to vary the absorption by the inkjet coating.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

> BTW how did we get from Red River Aurora Natural to Brown Tones w/ Carbon inks ???

I've noticed the change in topic title partway through other threads as well. I've found it very confusing at times to follow threads on this forum. Did you get an answer? Perhaps you did but if so I missed it.

Paul

Paul, I only read an early post in the thread and then your post. It is easy
to get to paper when talk printing and tonal range of colors. The paper has
an impact on how the ink is received  and shows different colors with
different papers. This is true with Cone's K7 and 6 inks. transition to
paper and back to ink sets would all be a part of the question, how does one
make chocolate color prints from a carbon ink set. 

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 8:26 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Red River Aurora Natural

 

  



> BTW how did we get from Red River Aurora Natural to Brown Tones w/ Carbon
inks ???

I've noticed the change in topic title partway through other threads as
well. I've found it very confusing at times to follow threads on this forum.
Did you get an answer? Perhaps you did but if so I missed it.

Paul





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Eric. Actually I don't mind threads branching off in different directions - I'm doing it now! It's just that when I'm hitting "Next" at the bottom of a post, the thread's title changes... so I get to thinking, hmmm, did I lose the thread? I guess what happens is that the person posting can go up to the subject header and make changes in the title. So actually I'm still in the same thread, but only the title is changed. I've never quite understood that, but I'm beginning to. I'm a slow learner!

Paul
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

>
> Paul, I only read an early post in the thread and then your post. It is easy
> to get to paper when talk printing and tonal range of colors. The paper has
> an impact on how the ink is received  and shows different colors with
> different papers. This is true with Cone's K7 and 6 inks. transition to
> paper and back to ink sets would all be a part of the question, how does one
> make chocolate color prints from a carbon ink set. 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
>  
> 
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> skype me with ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 8:26 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Red River Aurora Natural
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> > BTW how did we get from Red River Aurora Natural to Brown Tones w/ Carbon
> inks ???
> 
> I've noticed the change in topic title partway through other threads as
> well. I've found it very confusing at times to follow threads on this forum.
> Did you get an answer? Perhaps you did but if so I missed it.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hello Paul,

>...It's just that when I'm hitting "Next" at the bottom of a post, the thread's title changes... so I get to thinking, hmmm, did I lose the thread? I guess what happens is that the person posting can go up to the subject header and make changes in the title. So actually I'm still in the same thread, but only the title is changed. 
>>>

Definitely can be confusing.  People are being thoughtful by changing the name when the subject drifts because they don't want to hijack the original thread.  I never use the "Next" button, but always go "Back" to the main list (which I keep in simplified mode) - only way I can keep track of what's going on.  I can follow one thread all the way through, then go back and read another.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Thanks, Clayton... I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling confused at at times! I guess what you mean by going "Back" to the main list is what's called the Topic List? 

Regards,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

> Definitely can be confusing.  People are being thoughtful by changing the name when the subject drifts because they don't want to hijack the original thread.  I never use the "Next" button, but always go "Back" to the main list (which I keep in simplified mode) - only way I can keep track of what's going on.  I can follow one thread all the way through, then go back and read another.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

Hi Paul,

I have a question for you. I've been thinking about this for a couple of years but never asked.

Why is it that Epson's 100% carbon is warm (we could say brown), Piezotone and Piezography K7 100% carbon is very warm, but you have this Eboni black 100% carbon is neutralized compared to the others out there. If you don't mind my asking, what did you do to it to achieve that more neutral hue that allows you to also dilute it into 3 values for both good permanence, but also this less than carbon brown color?

I know HP Vivera and Canon Lucia grays and blacks are "carbonized" pigments that are neutralized, but they don't make the claim that they are all carbon. It seems to me like you guys are the only ones to pull off a neutralized 100% carbon black. Is that right. I don't keep up with these things on a chemical level, but I'm trying to learn.

John


 100% Eboni on 1.5 pl printers (1400, 1800, 1900, etc.) (the most neutral carbon)

Sounds like you both are using the yahoo interface; now that's a pain. I
gave up on that long ago when trying to read through message boards.  

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ClaytonJ
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:58 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Red River Aurora Natural

 

  



Hello Paul,

>...It's just that when I'm hitting "Next" at the bottom of a post, the
thread's title changes... so I get to thinking, hmmm, did I lose the thread?
I guess what happens is that the person posting can go up to the subject
header and make changes in the title. So actually I'm still in the same
thread, but only the title is changed. 
>>>

Definitely can be confusing. People are being thoughtful by changing the
name when the subject drifts because they don't want to hijack the original
thread. I never use the "Next" button, but always go "Back" to the main list
(which I keep in simplified mode) - only way I can keep track of what's
going on. I can follow one thread all the way through, then go back and read
another.

Regards,
Clayton

Info on black and white digital printing at 
http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm> net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm> net/itrak.htm





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
 
> Why is it that Epson's 100% carbon is warm (we could say brown), Piezotone and Piezography K7 100% carbon is very warm, but you have this Eboni black 100% carbon is neutralized compared to the others out there.

I would not say that Eboni is "neutralized," but just that it is less warm than the others.  The primary reason may be that the Eboni pigments are not ground to as small a size.  That is also why it settles faster.  It appears to be a trade off.

> If you don't mind my asking, what did you do to it to achieve that more neutral hue that allows you to also dilute it into 3 values for both good permanence, but also this less than carbon brown color?

I didn't do anything to the carbon.  MIS searched for a carbon that I liked after I started to use Jon's Museum carbon, which I felt was better than the old hybrid pigment-dye black that MIS had from it's older generation of inks.  I went through a number of samples and decided what was later named by MIS as "Eboni" was the one that was the best, based on dmax and tone.

> I know HP Vivera and Canon Lucia grays and blacks are "carbonized" pigments that are neutralized, but they don't make the claim that they are all carbon.

Their PKs and grays are neutralized -- blends of carbon and color pigments.  However, their MKs may be carbon.  I'm not sure.  They are warm and very lightfast, from what I can tell.  I keep searching for an even better, more neutral carbon black than Eboni, but I have not found one.  

> It seems to me like you guys are the only ones to pull off a neutralized 100% carbon black. ...

Neither MIS nor I pulled anything off.  I just selected an MK that I liked and MIS marketed it.  It turns out that it's also sold to others out there by the supplier.

The dilute Eboni is just that -- diluted MK.  It is warmer than the 100%, but again, not as warm as when one dilutes the other carbons. 

Hope this helps explain the situation.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Eric... well now, that's interesting! How do you navigate a Yahoo! site without using their interface?!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

>
> Sounds like you both are using the yahoo interface; now that's a pain. I
> gave up on that long ago when trying to read through message boards.  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
>  
> 
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> skype me with ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ClaytonJ
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:58 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Red River Aurora Natural
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Paul,
> 
> >...It's just that when I'm hitting "Next" at the bottom of a post, the
> thread's title changes... so I get to thinking, hmmm, did I lose the thread?
> I guess what happens is that the person posting can go up to the subject
> header and make changes in the title. So actually I'm still in the same
> thread, but only the title is changed. 
> >>>
> 
> Definitely can be confusing. People are being thoughtful by changing the
> name when the subject drifts because they don't want to hijack the original
> thread. I never use the "Next" button, but always go "Back" to the main list
> (which I keep in simplified mode) - only way I can keep track of what's
> going on. I can follow one thread all the way through, then go back and read
> another.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at 
> http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm> net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm> net/itrak.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

download  messages to Outlook.

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 6:09 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Red River Aurora Natural

 

  

Eric... well now, that's interesting! How do you navigate a Yahoo! site
without using their interface?!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like you both are using the yahoo interface; now that's a pain. I
> gave up on that long ago when trying to read through message boards. 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric Neilsen
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 
> 
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> skype me with ejprinter
> 
> 
> 
> _____ 
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ClaytonJ
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:58 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Red River Aurora Natural
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Paul,
> 
> >...It's just that when I'm hitting "Next" at the bottom of a post, the
> thread's title changes... so I get to thinking, hmmm, did I lose the
thread?
> I guess what happens is that the person posting can go up to the subject
> header and make changes in the title. So actually I'm still in the same
> thread, but only the title is changed. 
> >>>
> 
> Definitely can be confusing. People are being thoughtful by changing the
> name when the subject drifts because they don't want to hijack the
original
> thread. I never use the "Next" button, but always go "Back" to the main
list
> (which I keep in simplified mode) - only way I can keep track of what's
> going on. I can follow one thread all the way through, then go back and
read
> another.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at 
> http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.
<http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm> net/digiprnarts.htm>
net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.
<http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm> net/itrak.htm> net/itrak.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 7:44 AM, E.Neilsen <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

>
>
> download messages to Outlook.
>
>
My email provider switched over to Google for reading email on the web, and
so it has the gmail screen, but my address is the same.  I prefer this
interface to Outlook, and when my computer crashes, I won't lose all of my
emails, and I can access them from everywhere.  So, you could always sign up
for a gmail account and use that address to get list messages.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

why not use IMAP? instead of downloading.

 

fran

fleblanc.com

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pdesmidt
tds.net
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:13 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Red River Aurora Natural

 

  

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 7:44 AM, E.Neilsen <e.neilsen2@...
<mailto:e.neilsen2%40att.net> > wrote:

>
>
> download messages to Outlook.
>
>
My email provider switched over to Google for reading email on the web, and
so it has the gmail screen, but my address is the same. I prefer this
interface to Outlook, and when my computer crashes, I won't lose all of my
emails, and I can access them from everywhere. So, you could always sign up
for a gmail account and use that address to get list messages.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter, I back up my mail often enough that crashing doesn't worry me, and
since it's yahoo mail, they will have a searchable message library if I
really need it. In the old days of dial up, I guess that was when I started
this practice, Down load and read without tying up the one phone line
posting reading and such. It just carried over. I leave copies on the server
so most recent one are still there life is good. This practiced on all
computers. I don't know IMAP. I simply haven't used it and never checked
into pro or cons. 

 

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pdesmidt
tds.net
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:13 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Red River Aurora Natural

 

  

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 7:44 AM, E.Neilsen <e.neilsen2@att.
<mailto:e.neilsen2%40att.net> net> wrote:

>
>
> download messages to Outlook.
>
>
My email provider switched over to Google for reading email on the web, and
so it has the gmail screen, but my address is the same. I prefer this
interface to Outlook, and when my computer crashes, I won't lose all of my
emails, and I can access them from everywhere. So, you could always sign up
for a gmail account and use that address to get list messages.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]