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Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-05 by pr_roark

I've taken a snippet of the AaI fade test data for some of the B&W printing approaches we use and posted a brief summary here:

http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/AaI-30MLuxHr.jpg

Carbon pigments did very well.

Mark at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ is providing us with information that is way beyond what we've had before.  Please help support this resource.  

Access to the full fade tests allow you to see, among other things, what color inks do best.  It's the most rational way to find out about the longevity of competing inks, including those that we might want to use as toners for our carbon + color inksets.  To make such an inkset, no mixing is needed.  Anyone can throw 4 carbs into a printer, add the light colors of choice, and use QTR to control the best inkset possible for your particular preferences. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-05 by David Kachel

On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:21 PM, pr_roark wrote:

> I've taken a snippet of the AaI fade test data for some of the B&W printing approaches we use and posted a brief summary here:
> 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/AaI-30MLuxHr.jpg

Where can I find information on how to read this?

> 
> Carbon pigments did very well.
> 
> Mark at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ is providing us with information that is way beyond what we've had before. Please help support this resource. 
> 
> Access to the full fade tests allow you to see, among other things, what color inks do best. It's the most rational way to find out about the longevity of competing inks, including those that we might want to use as toners for our carbon + color inksets. To make such an inkset, no mixing is needed. Anyone can throw 4 carbs into a printer, add the light colors of choice, and use QTR to control the best inkset possible for your particular preferences. 

Excuse my ignorance, but anyone can throw which four inks into what kind of printer? And where would one get said "light colors of choice"? Do I understand correctly that it would be possible for me to put together my own largely carbon inkset that would allow me to vary brown tone to most any degree I desire? Please be specific or point me to where I might find this information. I've done all the inventing I am going to do but if I can get where I want to go by simply pouring inks into bottles and driving software, I am all for it.

TIA

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-05 by pr_roark

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> ... anyone can throw which four inks into what kind of printer?

Carbon inks of various densities, glossy compatible or not, are readily available from our usual suppliers.  

For example, and putting them in order of density, MIS glossy compatible carbon inks include:  K4-PK, UT7-C, K4-LK, UT7-LC, and K4-LLK.

The MIS K4 inks are at http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_k4.cfm

The UT7 inks are at http://www.inksupply.com/ut7_7600.cfm
(The UT7 LK and LLK are not 100% carbon.)

Eboni MK, not glossy compatible, is used in most MIS inksets.

Dilute Eboni-6, matte paper only, is at http://inksupply.com/eb6.cfm

With my old 7500, when I wanted both matte and glossy priting, I used the following setup: http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf

With this type of inkset, the pigments are very stable in suspension.  My centrifuge tests of MIS LK, for example, show it to settle more slowly than Epson K3 LK.

Virtually any Epson printer can be used, but you'll need empty cars &/or a CIS.  As a practical matter, it's always easier to follow what others have done and made available.


> And where would one get said "light colors of choice"? 

Pay the fee to get into Aardenburg-Imaging and see which inksets have the most stable C, M, & Y colors.  It's there.

I used, for example, Epson LM with the MIS carbon in the 7500 K4+ inkset mentioned above.

> Do I understand correctly that it would be possible for me to put together my own largely carbon inkset that would allow me to vary brown tone to most any degree I desire?

Yes.

Look for colors from Epson and HP that are the closest to what you need.  If one is not exact, then you want the two that are the closest  -- one on each side of your ideal.  The greater the hue angle separation, the more likely there will be visible differential fade.  If there are 2 color inks used, you'd also like to see that their fade rates in the AaI tests are very close to each other.  All of the colors will fade faster than carbon, so there is inevitable drift to the carbon tone, but it'll take a long time and not wiggle around too much if the hue angle is narrow, the pigments are very highly rated at AaI and fade relatively equally.  

(See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Color_Basics.jpg for some basics with respect to color terms, etc.)

> Please be specific or point me to where I might find this information. 

The fade test data in is at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/  

Those who pay the fee have access to enormous resources.

How to put in together is on this list.



Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-05 by E.Neilsen

David, The Sepia Ink set from Cone on the Bottom has 4 set dilutions. If the
sets were altered from their original dilutions, the test should have
indicated such, so the information included should be from the "as sold" ink
supply. At least that is the way I read the information posted. The ABW for
K3 inks does need a little in term of settings used to be an event that you
could match, but these were not seen by eyes reading the jpg.

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:44 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

 

  


On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:21 PM, pr_roark wrote:

> I've taken a snippet of the AaI fade test data for some of the B&W
printing approaches we use and posted a brief summary here:
> 
> http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/AaI-30MLuxHr.jpg>
k.com/BW-Info/AaI-30MLuxHr.jpg

Where can I find information on how to read this?

> 
> Carbon pigments did very well.
> 
> Mark at http://www.aardenbu <http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/>
rg-imaging.com/ is providing us with information that is way beyond what
we've had before. Please help support this resource. 
> 
> Access to the full fade tests allow you to see, among other things, what
color inks do best. It's the most rational way to find out about the
longevity of competing inks, including those that we might want to use as
toners for our carbon + color inksets. To make such an inkset, no mixing is
needed. Anyone can throw 4 carbs into a printer, add the light colors of
choice, and use QTR to control the best inkset possible for your particular
preferences. 

Excuse my ignorance, but anyone can throw which four inks into what kind of
printer? And where would one get said "light colors of choice"? Do I
understand correctly that it would be possible for me to put together my own
largely carbon inkset that would allow me to vary brown tone to most any
degree I desire? Please be specific or point me to where I might find this
information. I've done all the inventing I am going to do but if I can get
where I want to go by simply pouring inks into bottles and driving software,
I am all for it.

TIA

David Kachel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-05 by shileshjani

Paul,

Thank you for putting this together. All of these inks are nominally looking OK, execpt perhaps K6-Neutral. It is troubling that Lab-a is going negative, and I hate green prints. But I guess that is the price one pays for being so close to zero in Lab-a to start with. In my workflow I try to stay comfortably greater than +1 Lab-a at time zero.

Hey that ABW print is holding quite well. Go Epson! 

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I've taken a snippet of the AaI fade test data for some of the B&W printing approaches we use and posted a brief summary here:
> 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/AaI-30MLuxHr.jpg
> 
> Carbon pigments did very well.
> 
> Mark at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ is providing us with information that is way beyond what we've had before.  Please help support this resource.  
> 
> Access to the full fade tests allow you to see, among other things, what color inks do best.  It's the most rational way to find out about the longevity of competing inks, including those that we might want to use as toners for our carbon + color inksets.  To make such an inkset, no mixing is needed.  Anyone can throw 4 carbs into a printer, add the light colors of choice, and use QTR to control the best inkset possible for your particular preferences. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-06 by David Kachel

On Feb 5, 2010, at 5:36 PM, pr_roark wrote:

> Look for colors from Epson and HP that are the closest to what you need.

Do Epson and HP sell them in bulk or does one have to buy and milk cartridges?

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-06 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> Where can I find information on how to read this?

There's a lot of supporting information on the AaI&A website. Most of it free to the public. That said, I know I have to do much better in bringing all AaI&A members up to speed on all aspect of the reports. I do tend to view this situation much like any task of higher learning. Start with some basics, take a deep breath, and add to your level of knowledge as you go. My job is to serve as your guide, but first I had to set up the testing infrastructure and get some data into play. That task is well in hand now, so I will turn my attention to more tutorials this year.

 Many of my members already understand CIELAB and the color difference numbers, i.e.,  those delta E values  and L*, a*, and b* values that are posted in my reports. But the I* metric is superior and it is designed to make it all even easier. Read the I* scores for average overall response and also the weakest 10% of the colors just like you'd read a grade point average. 90% and above is excellent tone and color retention, 80% good, 70% satisfactory, 60% poor. 100% is a perfect match and hence a perfect score. AaI&A also gives a "Conservation Display Rating" which is the range of megalux hours that the product can be exposed to and still show little or no noticeable fade. Paul has not given you those ratings, and indeed some of the samples in test and posted here aren't even at their rating limit yet, so the tests are ongoing. But the cool thing about the data is that, like Paul, you can directly and fairly compare the scores at fixed exposure levels. Paul has showed you the 30 megalux hour data which is equivalent to 15 WIR display years and about 60 Kodak years based on these companies' choice of "standardized" light levels in the real world. I believe there is way too much variability in the real world to choose just one "standardized" level, so I prefer to provide a table in the AaI&A reports and let people estimate their own display times based on the megaluix hour ratings and reasonable knowledge of the lighting levels in their chosen environments.

Some other points I'd like to make:

1). All the data Paul posted is true B&W mode printing except the HP Vivera sample. That's a color print, so the 50% midtone is indeed a gray, but the summary scores are for the system as it makes color prints. The scores would improve, I believe, if we run a true monochrome print test, because the HP photo grays are more stable than some of the pure colors, but I haven't recieved any B&W samples yet to test for the HP Vivera pigmented inks.

2). I'm pretty liberal about members sharing the AaI&A data, in terms of sharing with clients or using in educational settings. But posting of the AaI&A data to websites violates the AaI&A copyright without written permission to do so from AaI&A. Paul has my permission, and I thank him for his willingness to help me spread the word about the AaI&A research. Thank you, Paul.

3). Someone in the thread asked about the settings related to these test results and noted limited value without more information on the settings used to make the prints. Quite right, and the AaI&A test reports go to great length to document those settings. I rely on members providing this information to me when the samples are submitted, and more and more, I'm requesting screen shots of the driver menu settings, and AaI&A members are for the most part more than willing to provide. So, for example, if you download the Epson ABW sample that Paul excerpted, the description page shows the ABW settings used to make the print in a screen shot. Incidentally, the submitting member worked hard to match it to the Cone Carbon Sepia color, and it's remarkably close in terms of initial hue and chroma for both systems.

I hope my comments help without sounding overly self-serving.  I know it takes time to digest this research and that my job is just as much to educate my audience as it is to  collect the test results. I'm working on that. I ask for a little patience.... and more members to help me continue this research. The results to date fascinate even me (I've been doing this type of testing for a couple of decades), and as a fellow printmaker, I'm still learning a lot, too!

thanks,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

RE: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-06 by E.Neilsen

Mark, I had questioned the color setting used to make the ABW. It is also
part of my work flow with a 4800 to match my print color of the Sepia Piezo
set which runs with Image Print and my Epson 7000, also with Museum black. I
am feeling good with my selected inks and tonal range today : )  

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 6:48 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

 

  



--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> Where can I find information on how to read this?

There's a lot of supporting information on the AaI&A website. Most of it
free to the public. That said, I know I have to do much better in bringing
all AaI&A members up to speed on all aspect of the reports. I do tend to
view this situation much like any task of higher learning. Start with some
basics, take a deep breath, and add to your level of knowledge as you go. My
job is to serve as your guide, but first I had to set up the testing
infrastructure and get some data into play. That task is well in hand now,
so I will turn my attention to more tutorials this year.

Many of my members already understand CIELAB and the color difference
numbers, i.e., those delta E values and L*, a*, and b* values that are
posted in my reports. But the I* metric is superior and it is designed to
make it all even easier. Read the I* scores for average overall response and
also the weakest 10% of the colors just like you'd read a grade point
average. 90% and above is excellent tone and color retention, 80% good, 70%
satisfactory, 60% poor. 100% is a perfect match and hence a perfect score.
AaI&A also gives a "Conservation Display Rating" which is the range of
megalux hours that the product can be exposed to and still show little or no
noticeable fade. Paul has not given you those ratings, and indeed some of
the samples in test and posted here aren't even at their rating limit yet,
so the tests are ongoing. But the cool thing about the data is that, like
Paul, you can directly and fairly compare the scores at fixed exposure
levels. Paul has showed you the 30 megalux hour data which is equivalent to
15 WIR display years and about 60 Kodak years based on these companies'
choice of "standardized" light levels in the real world. I believe there is
way too much variability in the real world to choose just one "standardized"
level, so I prefer to provide a table in the AaI&A reports and let people
estimate their own display times based on the megaluix hour ratings and
reasonable knowledge of the lighting levels in their chosen environments.

Some other points I'd like to make:

1). All the data Paul posted is true B&W mode printing except the HP Vivera
sample. That's a color print, so the 50% midtone is indeed a gray, but the
summary scores are for the system as it makes color prints. The scores would
improve, I believe, if we run a true monochrome print test, because the HP
photo grays are more stable than some of the pure colors, but I haven't
recieved any B&W samples yet to test for the HP Vivera pigmented inks.

2). I'm pretty liberal about members sharing the AaI&A data, in terms of
sharing with clients or using in educational settings. But posting of the
AaI&A data to websites violates the AaI&A copyright without written
permission to do so from AaI&A. Paul has my permission, and I thank him for
his willingness to help me spread the word about the AaI&A research. Thank
you, Paul.

3). Someone in the thread asked about the settings related to these test
results and noted limited value without more information on the settings
used to make the prints. Quite right, and the AaI&A test reports go to great
length to document those settings. I rely on members providing this
information to me when the samples are submitted, and more and more, I'm
requesting screen shots of the driver menu settings, and AaI&A members are
for the most part more than willing to provide. So, for example, if you
download the Epson ABW sample that Paul excerpted, the description page
shows the ABW settings used to make the print in a screen shot.
Incidentally, the submitting member worked hard to match it to the Cone
Carbon Sepia color, and it's remarkably close in terms of initial hue and
chroma for both systems.

I hope my comments help without sounding overly self-serving. I know it
takes time to digest this research and that my job is just as much to
educate my audience as it is to collect the test results. I'm working on
that. I ask for a little patience.... and more members to help me continue
this research. The results to date fascinate even me (I've been doing this
type of testing for a couple of decades), and as a fellow printmaker, I'm
still learning a lot, too!

thanks,

Mark
http://www.aardenbu <http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com> rg-imaging.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-06 by pr_roark

"Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
>
>...
> I believe there is way too much variability in the real world to choose just one "standardized" [display light] level, so I prefer to provide a table in the AaI&A reports and let people estimate their own display times based on the megaluix hour ratings and reasonable knowledge of the lighting levels in their chosen environments.


For example, 30 M Lux Hours is, according to that table, 3.4 years of commercial gallery light level display.  So, the people who are in galleries need to look at that table and decide what they are comfortable with.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-06 by Don

DK,

> Do Epson and HP sell them in bulk or does one have to buy and milk cartridges?

As far as I know, Epson or HP has never sold their inks in bulk. Ink sold in the larger carts maybe drained and placed in another smaller  cart to gain the advantage of a volume purchase. 

Of course it helps to know what you are doing when you attempt ink transfers. I'm sure someone has written the procedure up somewhere or another on the net.

Don Bryant

Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-06 by Paul

I've posted this before, a while back, so please forgive the repetition. But it seems appropriate given the high activity in this particular thread to repeat it.

In December I submitted test prints to Mark using the Epson 1800/3MK Eboni/Premier Art FineArt 205 combination and those tests are now in process. I took a quick look to see if that entry was there, even though I think it's still too early for my data to be posted. I think he said it would be about mid-April to see those results.

Mark was great to work with and very receptive to my submission. Again, a repetition, but I urge us all to support his efforts and take out a membership - it can only benefit us all.

Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-06 by pr_roark

"Don" <dsbryant@...> wrote:

>... it helps to know what you are doing when you attempt ink transfers. 


For HP see the first 2 pages of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-C6.pdf

For Epson wide format carts, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Modified-Bottom-Fill-Adapter.pdf

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-06 by john

It is a really fantastic system and miracle for us print makers.

It really isn't difficult to interpret this website information once you take the trouble to read Mark's description on the site. It's just a new better way of looking at things. This system goes so far beyond what we've had in the past that it's a total change in the the way we measure print longevity altogether.

A few examples of why are:

1. I metric plots tonal fade changes and color changes separately! You not only see how a print changes in regard to density in all gradations of gray patches over time (dmax too) but you see exactly what color a monochrome or color prints changes to! And he's got the separate color patches right there on the site for each test, for each increased level of illumination over the life of the test, to show you exactly what hue cast is being introduced in what value of the print at what time/intensity level. That's amazing. If you want to see why that is important take a look at the Fuji Chrystal Archive test (I would call failure) and watch what colors of the target rapidly change hue under the various exposure levels. If that isn't evidence of exactly why not to  buy a C print as an investment I don't know what is. Be sure to click on the green or blue TEST REPORT link to see the progression of these patches. It's amazing. He's showing where all the strong and weak links are for a particular media/ink/light combination in a progression of time.


2. He's showing a range of intensity of light to show how that too effects both color and tonal fade (shown separately). Why is that important? Well one example is a client of mine has large back and white and color prints behind glass shown regularly facing large windows that bring in levels of light far beyond 450 lux every day the sun shines. There is nothing I can do to change that, it's just a fact and I want to know when and where they are going to change if I have to replace them in the future. Many locations for showing prints and canvas in public or corporate spaces are beyond the 450 Wilhelm level standard we're used to. We need to know what is going to happen to them and what we can do to improve things on our end if at all. Wilhelm's data in that regard is so vague as to pretty much be non-existent. 

3. Aardenburg is testing inks and media that would NEVER get tested correctly otherwise. Most of us who have been doing this for 10 or more years have been down several dead ends because of the lack of info like this.

4. He's showing us how obas and or poor coatings in media can fail and ruin a print even when the pigments themselves are holding up well. His is huge also. Wilhelm certainly never showed that variable at all.

We should expect to learn more about digital print fade this year than all the previous years put together.


john  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@> wrote:
> 
> > Where can I find information on how to read this?
> 
> There's a lot of supporting information on the AaI&A website. Most of it free to the public. That said, I know I have to do much better in bringing all AaI&A members up to speed on all aspect of the reports. I do tend to view this situation much like any task of higher learning. Start with some basics, take a deep breath, and add to your level of knowledge as you go. My job is to serve as your guide, but first I had to set up the testing infrastructure and get some data into play. That task is well in hand now, so I will turn my attention to more tutorials this year.
> 
>  Many of my members already understand CIELAB and the color difference numbers, i.e.,  those delta E values  and L*, a*, and b* values that are posted in my reports. But the I* metric is superior and it is designed to make it all even easier. Read the I* scores for average overall response and also the weakest 10% of the colors just like you'd read a grade point average. 90% and above is excellent tone and color retention, 80% good, 70% satisfactory, 60% poor. 100% is a perfect match and hence a perfect score. AaI&A also gives a "Conservation Display Rating" which is the range of megalux hours that the product can be exposed to and still show little or no noticeable fade. Paul has not given you those ratings, and indeed some of the samples in test and posted here aren't even at their rating limit yet, so the tests are ongoing. But the cool thing about the data is that, like Paul, you can directly and fairly compare the scores at fixed exposure levels. Paul has showed you the 30 megalux hour data which is equivalent to 15 WIR display years and about 60 Kodak years based on these companies' choice of "standardized" light levels in the real world. I believe there is way too much variability in the real world to choose just one "standardized" level, so I prefer to provide a table in the AaI&A reports and let people estimate their own display times based on the megaluix hour ratings and reasonable knowledge of the lighting levels in their chosen environments.
> 
> Some other points I'd like to make:
> 
> 1). All the data Paul posted is true B&W mode printing except the HP Vivera sample. That's a color print, so the 50% midtone is indeed a gray, but the summary scores are for the system as it makes color prints. The scores would improve, I believe, if we run a true monochrome print test, because the HP photo grays are more stable than some of the pure colors, but I haven't recieved any B&W samples yet to test for the HP Vivera pigmented inks.
> 
> 2). I'm pretty liberal about members sharing the AaI&A data, in terms of sharing with clients or using in educational settings. But posting of the AaI&A data to websites violates the AaI&A copyright without written permission to do so from AaI&A. Paul has my permission, and I thank him for his willingness to help me spread the word about the AaI&A research. Thank you, Paul.
> 
> 3). Someone in the thread asked about the settings related to these test results and noted limited value without more information on the settings used to make the prints. Quite right, and the AaI&A test reports go to great length to document those settings. I rely on members providing this information to me when the samples are submitted, and more and more, I'm requesting screen shots of the driver menu settings, and AaI&A members are for the most part more than willing to provide. So, for example, if you download the Epson ABW sample that Paul excerpted, the description page shows the ABW settings used to make the print in a screen shot. Incidentally, the submitting member worked hard to match it to the Cone Carbon Sepia color, and it's remarkably close in terms of initial hue and chroma for both systems.
> 
> I hope my comments help without sounding overly self-serving.  I know it takes time to digest this research and that my job is just as much to educate my audience as it is to  collect the test results. I'm working on that. I ask for a little patience.... and more members to help me continue this research. The results to date fascinate even me (I've been doing this type of testing for a couple of decades), and as a fellow printmaker, I'm still learning a lot, too!
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Mark
> http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-06 by Marko Milisavljevic

I am sure I'm not the only one who bought a number of black inks over time from MIS. Then some other black ink comes up in conversation and I'm not sure if one of the ones I have matches it. I am especially interested in K inks that can be used as building blocks for our own mixing, not in dilutions sold by MIS. I assume there are no more then 3-5 such inks, but looking at MIS website it is impossible to tell. This must be documented in bits and pieces but if someone knowledgeable could summarize it, it would be very helpful.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 2010-02-05, at 15:36, pr_roark wrote:

> Carbon inks of various densities, glossy compatible or not, are readily available from our usual suppliers. 
> 
> For example, and putting them in order of density, MIS glossy compatible carbon inks include: K4-PK, UT7-C, K4-LK, UT7-LC, and K4-LLK.
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-07 by Ernst Dinkla

David Kachel schreef:
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 5:36 PM, pr_roark wrote:
> 
>> Look for colors from Epson and HP that are the closest to what you need.
> 
> Do Epson and HP sell them in bulk or does one have to buy and milk cartridges?
> 
> David Kachel

Both sell cartridges at sizes of 700-750 ML. Ink price then drops to 
approx 30 cents a ML.

Epson 11880 carts, HP Z6100 carts.

Smaller carts exist too: 350, 220, twin130, 130, 110, 68 ML Price per ML 
goes up accordingly.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-07 by Ernst Dinkla

pr_roark schreef:
> I've taken a snippet of the AaI fade test data for some of the B&W
> printing approaches we use and posted a brief summary here:
> 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/AaI-30MLuxHr.jpg

Like Mark already mentioned:
Be aware that the HP Vivera numbers are taken from a color test target
printed in color mode and the patch measured may have a different value
in density-tone than the Midtone L*=50. It is also done on the HP Smooth
Fine Art which in the rolls I got was slightly warmer than Photorag. All
the other printer-inks use a B&W mode for printing on Photorag and
measure the same patch. Nevertheless it is good that Paul included it
in this list. In the Z3100 neutral grey inks are replacing any hue mix
when neutral patches are printed, from 0-100%, even in color mode Color
profiling in color mode could however mix in a hue ink. I don't think
that a B&W workflow would change the test numbers but it could....
.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-07 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
> 
> Like Mark already mentioned:
> Be aware that the HP Vivera numbers are taken from a color test target
> printed in color mode and the patch measured may have a different value
> in density-tone than the Midtone L*=50. It is also done on the HP Smooth
> Fine Art which in the rolls I got was slightly warmer than Photorag. All
> the other printer-inks use a B&W mode for printing on Photorag and
> measure the same patch. Nevertheless it is good that Paul included it
> in this list. In the Z3100 neutral grey inks are replacing any hue mix
> when neutral patches are printed, from 0-100%, even in color mode Color
> profiling in color mode could however mix in a hue ink. I don't think
> that a B&W workflow would change the test numbers but it could....

Yes, and perhaps I should stress this again as well.  It is highly likely that a monochrome test of the Hp inkset will improve the summary stats significantly for the better which is why I took the time to point out that the Hp sample data is excerpted from an AaI&A color target test sample whereas the other data sets are derived from AaI&A monochrome targets. Hence, I want to make sure that people looking at this excerpted data don't try to rank the Hp sample along with the others based on the summary stats. The summary stats are calculated on average system response and worst 10% response of all 30 patches.  But the Hp test is averaging an array of colors (mostly the 24 macbeth colorchecker chart colors), whereas the other samples are averaging 30 patches of "gray tones".  Thus, we can't make the summary stat comparison fairly.  The Hp photogray inks generally outperform the other Hp colorants in the full HP Vivera pigment inkset (pretty much true for all the latest pigment sets from Epson, Hp, and Canon). Hence, a test sample printed solely in a B&W mode (like the other samples posted here) is very highly likely to boost the Hp summary scores for this paper.  In fact, the Hp sample has actually reached the 90 megalux hour exposure dose in test (it has been in test longer than the others).  And at the 90 megalux hour mark, all seven neutral patches in the AaI&A color target are still turning in 100% I* color scores with the HP Vivera pigmented ink. That means no hue shifting whatsoever has been detected.  Hp has clearly engineered a superbly "balanced fade" set of inks. This is good. 

The value proposition of the full AaI&A test reports is that you can also discern important paper/ink interactions. What's dragging down the summary stat scores in this posted Hp sample is the pure magenta and also the violet-purple color patches. Yet if one prints the same inkset on another paper the most affected colors can be different. On Crane Museo Silver Rag paper, for example, the orange color patch takes the biggest hit (presumably created with at least some of the Hp Z's red ink perhaps in addition/replacement to magenta and yellow inks). 

Bottom line: ignore the summary stats for the HP sample in this set of excerpted samples and just compare the single midtone gray patch response to the other samples. That said, it is fair to look at the summary stats for the others. Also, please take the time to study the full reports if you want to learn even more about ink/paper interactions.

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-07 by pr_roark

I've removed the HP summary stats and noted that there may have been more color in the gray patch than would be the case in a B&W workflow.

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/AaI-30MLuxHr.jpg

The HP inkset did not do as well on some other papers.  I do not expect it can be as tone shift free as 100% carbon on all papers and where it may be subject to atmospheric pollution.  Nonetheless, my conclusion about quality of the HP ink is best shown by the fact that I'm now using the HP PK along with Eboni in my printers. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-07 by john

The value in the Vivera inks being designed to fade at the same rate, gray and color, it seems to me, is that for "toned monochrome", like sepia and such that I do a lot of, you wouldn't see the disparity as much as the other inksets over time. Of course with Wilhelm's Epson tests he lumps all "black and white" variations as one thing. I don't know if he tested just "neutral" targets or what. Unlike Mark's methods, there is no way to tell what he's testing because you can't see the patches as they change over time.

j

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-09 by john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
I submitted  gray and black only Hp Z3100 Vivera samples on Photorag 308 and Photorag Baryta awhile back so they should show up soon.

john
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@> wrote:
> > 
> > Like Mark already mentioned:
> > Be aware that the HP Vivera numbers are taken from a color test target
> > printed in color mode and the patch measured may have a different value
> > in density-tone than the Midtone L*=50. It is also done on the HP Smooth
> > Fine Art which in the rolls I got was slightly warmer than Photorag. All
> > the other printer-inks use a B&W mode for printing on Photorag and
> > measure the same patch. Nevertheless it is good that Paul included it
> > in this list. In the Z3100 neutral grey inks are replacing any hue mix
> > when neutral patches are printed, from 0-100%, even in color mode Color
> > profiling in color mode could however mix in a hue ink. I don't think
> > that a B&W workflow would change the test numbers but it could....
> 
> Yes, and perhaps I should stress this again as well.  It is highly likely that a monochrome test of the Hp inkset will improve the summary stats significantly for the better which is why I took the time to point out that the Hp sample data is excerpted from an AaI&A color target test sample whereas the other data sets are derived from AaI&A monochrome targets.

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-09 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> I submitted  gray and black only Hp Z3100 Vivera samples on Photorag 308 and Photorag Baryta awhile back so they should show up soon.
> 
> john

Yes, I'm preparing a new batch 25 samples, and they will begin test very soon.  I had hoped to already have this batch in test, but I've been backlogged with other work lately.  John's samples are in this new batch and will really help to flesh out Hp Vivera pigment performance in monochrome mode.

Thanks for everyone's interest in the research.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardeburg-imaging

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-09 by john

Hi Mark,

I just dropped the last two samples to you in the mail today. I'm glad you haven't started the next run yet.

These I had mentioned I was sending you are  Piezography Neutral K7 on Premier Alise Bright White (not the dreaded Photorag this time) and Piezography Carbon Sepia K7 on the same paper.

Like you mentioned the last time we discussed this, it will help greatly to have the Piezo stuff tested on more than one media from more than one source to  have a clearer reading as to where this is all going - dedicated sets vs Epson, quad vs K7,and this media vs that media.

John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> 
> > I submitted  gray and black only Hp Z3100 Vivera samples on Photorag 308 and Photorag Baryta awhile back so they should show up soon.
> > 
> > john
> 
> Yes, I'm preparing a new batch 25 samples, and they will begin test very soon.  I had hoped to already have this batch in test, but I've been backlogged with other work lately.  John's samples are in this new batch and will really help to flesh out Hp Vivera pigment performance in monochrome mode.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's interest in the research.
> 
> cheers,
> Mark
> http://www.aardeburg-imaging
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by BKPhoto@aol.com

John-


What's your opinion of the Premier Alise Bright White? Worth consideration?




Bill Kennedy
K2 Press, Inc.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: john <deanwork2003@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Feb 9, 2010 5:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results


  
    
                  
Hi Mark,

I just dropped the last two samples to you in the mail today. I'm glad you haven't started the next run yet.

These I had mentioned I was sending you are  Piezography Neutral K7 on Premier Alise Bright White (not the dreaded Photorag this time) and Piezography Carbon Sepia K7 on the same paper.

Like you mentioned the last time we discussed this, it will help greatly to have the Piezo stuff tested on more than one media from more than one source to  have a clearer reading as to where this is all going - dedicated sets vs Epson, quad vs K7,and this media vs that media.

John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> 
> > I submitted  gray and black only Hp Z3100 Vivera samples on Photorag 308 and Photorag Baryta awhile back so they should show up soon.
> > 
> > john
> 
> Yes, I'm preparing a new batch 25 samples, and they will begin test very soon.  I had hoped to already have this batch in test, but I've been backlogged with other work lately.  John's samples are in this new batch and will really help to flesh out Hp Vivera pigment performance in monochrome mode.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's interest in the research.
> 
> cheers,
> Mark
> http://www.aardeburg-imaging
>


    
             

  
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by Mark Savoia

Dreaded Photo Rag???

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

> These I had mentioned I was sending you are  Piezography Neutral K7 on Premier Alise Bright White (not the dreaded Photorag this time)

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by john

Hi Bill,

Well I just bought a 25 sheet pack of 8.5x11 to submit  these fade tests with but haven't done any actual prints on it yet, but I believe Tyler and others have. From the patches I printed it looks very good. Pretty much the same texture, base white, thickness, and dmax as Photorag308 with not a trace of bleed. It is working way better than the Crane papers that don't take max black well and get all muddy in linearization in the shadows. 

The only reason I bought the Premiere was Jon's insistence that Photorag is not performing well with his inks (which I've certainly never seen here). And, the longevity questions......Wilhelm's tests do show  Photorag doing not as good as the Crane Ultrasmooth with K3 going by the tests Hahnemuhle paid for. But it isn't bad, just not as good as some other matte rag media.

So Mark S. we will see just what happens on Alise in relation to the look and fade with all the inks. Personally you and I  and a million other people have had great results with all kinds of inks on Photorag, and I continue to use it constantly until I find some concrete reason not to.

It is interesting, I was reviewing Aardenburg's tests with the Vivera inks and right now at about 90 megalux hrs, Photorag Pearl and Crane Silver Rag are performing better than the Hp version of Photorag matte ( which is doing fine but not quite as good.)

We may see that some of these papers and inks do better or worse in the first 100 mega lux hours but change performance the other direction in longer exposures. In other words, some may take a hit early but level off after that, and others do great early on and fade more rapidly in the long run. That is exactly why we need Aardenburg, to find out these kinds of things. Certainly no one else has told us what's going on.

john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> John-
> 
> 
> What's your opinion of the Premier Alise Bright White? Worth consideration?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Kennedy
> K2 Press, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: john <deanwork2003@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, Feb 9, 2010 5:24 pm
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results
> 
> 
>   
>     
>                   
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I just dropped the last two samples to you in the mail today. I'm glad you haven't started the next run yet.
> 
> These I had mentioned I was sending you are  Piezography Neutral K7 on Premier Alise Bright White (not the dreaded Photorag this time) and Piezography Carbon Sepia K7 on the same paper.
> 
> Like you mentioned the last time we discussed this, it will help greatly to have the Piezo stuff tested on more than one media from more than one source to  have a clearer reading as to where this is all going - dedicated sets vs Epson, quad vs K7,and this media vs that media.
> 
> John
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> > 
> > > I submitted  gray and black only Hp Z3100 Vivera samples on Photorag 308 and Photorag Baryta awhile back so they should show up soon.
> > > 
> > > john
> > 
> > Yes, I'm preparing a new batch 25 samples, and they will begin test very soon.  I had hoped to already have this batch in test, but I've been backlogged with other work lately.  John's samples are in this new batch and will really help to flesh out Hp Vivera pigment performance in monochrome mode.
> > 
> > Thanks for everyone's interest in the research.
> > 
> > cheers,
> > Mark
> > http://www.aardeburg-imaging
> >
> 
> 
>     
>              
> 
>   
>  
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by Terry Ritz

On 09/02/10 5:24 PM, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> These I had mentioned I was sending you are  Piezography Neutral K7 on Premier
> Alise Bright White (not the dreaded Photorag this time) and Piezography Carbon
> Sepia K7 on the same paper.
> 
> Like you mentioned the last time we discussed this, it will help greatly to
> have the Piezo stuff tested on more than one media from more than one source
> to  have a clearer reading as to where this is all going - dedicated sets vs
> Epson, quad vs K7,and this media vs that media.

I just subscribed to Aardenburg-Imaging and as others have said, what an
outstanding resource.

John, I'm encouraged to see more Cone inks being added to the test queue.
I'm currently running K7 Special Edition on Canson Photo Rag Baryta and BFK
Rives, and I have K7 Selenium and Cone Type 5 gloss media on the way.
Perhaps some combination in there would be useful to include in the future.
I see that the submission process is well outlined on the web page.

Terry.

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by john

Yes it is super well organized and carefully thought out. The more I read about it the more impressed I am. He just needs a lot more subscribers, a lot more. I keep thinking the gallery and museum community needs to become involved with all this somehow. I just don't think a lot of them know about it yet. I mean, this isn't like the old days where people keep using the same materials decade after decade. These days every year has a whole new crop of inks and media to think about. And as we can see, they aren't all the same.

john
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I see that the submission process is well outlined on the web page.
> 
> Terry.
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by Terry Ritz

On 09/02/10 9:55 PM, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> I keep thinking the gallery and museum community needs to become
> involved with all this somehow. I just don't think a lot of them know about it
> yet. I mean, this isn't like the old days where people keep using the same
> materials decade after decade. These days every year has a whole new crop of
> inks and media to think about. And as we can see, they aren't all the same.

That's an excellent point. I was thinking the other day about the fact that
I'm running a completely different set of papers than I was two or three
years ago. In fact, it's changing a bit even now.

Relative to what I see available on the Aardenburg-Imaging site, I feel like
I've been running blind and naked.

Terry.

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>.... I keep thinking the gallery and museum community needs to become involved with all this somehow. I just don't think a lot of them know about it yet. I mean, this isn't like the old days where people keep using the same materials decade after decade. These days every year has a whole new crop of inks and media to think about. And as we can see, they aren't all the same.
> 
> john

John, as you probably know, I come from that world. I was the Senior research photographic scientist at the Smithsonian Institution for 10 years before going back into private practice.  I know many photo conservators, conservation scientists, archivists, librarians, program directors, etc., in the museum and archives community.  And thus I can say with pretty good authority that this community is not going to help me with my research on digital print media.  For one thing, AaI&A is not a non profit organization which disqualifies it from most grant programs to the arts and sciences.  For another, even if AaI&A was eligible for grants, it takes months and months, even years to secure a decent grant. The grant proposal process is good for people who already have some sort of institutional job and can collect a regular paycheck while writing proposals and waiting through the long approval processes. AaI&A has no such safety net, so looking to the museum and archives community for financial support is basically a non starter. 

Non profit organizations like museums and archives also rely heavily on corporate donations. They would therefore carefully avoid any connection with research that produces product-specific test results.  For example, you don't see product-specific print permanence research from IPI.  IPI is a well funded non profit research lab connected to a major academic institution (RIT).  It does great work but of a generalized "caring for your photographs" nature.  You won't find Fuji/kodak, HP/Epson, etc. comparisons ever published by IPI because it's parent organization (RIT) understandably wants to maintain good relationships with the entire corporate world.

Hence, I founded AaI&A to help fill the current print permanence information void for the end-user.  It is this individual photographer or printmaker whom I need to reach for financial support.  I also offer a group sponsorship plan as well.  AaI&A's most likely group sponsors are companies (e.g, a picture framing company) or organizations (e.g, a photography club) that have "no dog in the hunt".  They probably don't sell or manufacture the products AaI&A tests, but their members or customers actively use them and would benefit from a free or discounted membership in AaI&A.  Pro-Imaging.org, an organization of professional photographers, became AaI&A's first group sponsor last September.  The group sponsorship approach may well be the key to AaI&A's success, but I definitely need the help of individual members as well to succeed.  I just have to take it one day at a time.


cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by john

I see. I didn't realize you had such a background with the museum community. I also see why you are casting a wide net for end users. There are a lot of them out there.

 It just amazes me how museum curators and gallery owners, and art collectors who are actively selling and buying photographs are so ignorant of what is going on. I mean totally ignorant.  I think part of the reason is that they have never seen a website like yours that actually displays the patches and data as it changes in time, and under varied amounts of light.

I still have people telling me, today actually,  that Lightjets on Fuji Chrystal Archive is some great product that will last 120 years ( yea maybe in 50 megalux "museum" lighting but I wouldn't  bet on it.)

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
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> 
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> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >.... I keep thinking the gallery and museum community needs to become involved with all this somehow. I just don't think a lot of them know about it yet. I mean, this isn't like the old days where people keep using the same materials decade after decade. These days every year has a whole new crop of inks and media to think about. And as we can see, they aren't all the same.
> > 
> > john
> 
> John, as you probably know, I come from that world. I was the Senior research photographic scientist at the Smithsonian Institution for 10 years before going back into private practice.  I know many photo conservators, conservation scientists, archivists, librarians, program directors, etc., in the museum and archives community.  And thus I can say with pretty good authority that this community is not going to help me with my research on digital print media.  For one thing, AaI&A is not a non profit organization which disqualifies it from most grant programs to the arts and sciences.  For another, even if AaI&A was eligible for grants, it takes months and months, even years to secure a decent grant. The grant proposal process is good for people who already have some sort of institutional job and can collect a regular paycheck while writing proposals and waiting through the long approval processes. AaI&A has no such safety net, so looking to the museum and archives community for financial support is basically a non starter. 
> 
> Non profit organizations like museums and archives also rely heavily on corporate donations. They would therefore carefully avoid any connection with research that produces product-specific test results.  For example, you don't see product-specific print permanence research from IPI.  IPI is a well funded non profit research lab connected to a major academic institution (RIT).  It does great work but of a generalized "caring for your photographs" nature.  You won't find Fuji/kodak, HP/Epson, etc. comparisons ever published by IPI because it's parent organization (RIT) understandably wants to maintain good relationships with the entire corporate world.
> 
> Hence, I founded AaI&A to help fill the current print permanence information void for the end-user.  It is this individual photographer or printmaker whom I need to reach for financial support.  I also offer a group sponsorship plan as well.  AaI&A's most likely group sponsors are companies (e.g, a picture framing company) or organizations (e.g, a photography club) that have "no dog in the hunt".  They probably don't sell or manufacture the products AaI&A tests, but their members or customers actively use them and would benefit from a free or discounted membership in AaI&A.  Pro-Imaging.org, an organization of professional photographers, became AaI&A's first group sponsor last September.  The group sponsorship approach may well be the key to AaI&A's success, but I definitely need the help of individual members as well to succeed.  I just have to take it one day at a time.
> 
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Mark
> http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by john

I see. I didn't realize you had such a background with the museum community. I also see why you are casting a wide net for end users. There are a lot of them out there.

 It just amazes me how museum curators and gallery owners, and art collectors who are actively selling and buying photographs are so ignorant of what is going on. I mean totally ignorant.  I think part of the reason is that they have never seen a website like yours that actually displays the patches and data as it changes in time, and under varied amounts of light.

I still have people telling me, today actually,  that Lightjets on Fuji Chrystal Archive is some great product that will last 120 years ( yea maybe in 50 megalux "museum" lighting but I wouldn't  bet on it.)

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >.... I keep thinking the gallery and museum community needs to become involved with all this somehow. I just don't think a lot of them know about it yet. I mean, this isn't like the old days where people keep using the same materials decade after decade. These days every year has a whole new crop of inks and media to think about. And as we can see, they aren't all the same.
> > 
> > john
> 
> John, as you probably know, I come from that world. I was the Senior research photographic scientist at the Smithsonian Institution for 10 years before going back into private practice.  I know many photo conservators, conservation scientists, archivists, librarians, program directors, etc., in the museum and archives community.  And thus I can say with pretty good authority that this community is not going to help me with my research on digital print media.  For one thing, AaI&A is not a non profit organization which disqualifies it from most grant programs to the arts and sciences.  For another, even if AaI&A was eligible for grants, it takes months and months, even years to secure a decent grant. The grant proposal process is good for people who already have some sort of institutional job and can collect a regular paycheck while writing proposals and waiting through the long approval processes. AaI&A has no such safety net, so looking to the museum and archives community for financial support is basically a non starter. 
> 
> Non profit organizations like museums and archives also rely heavily on corporate donations. They would therefore carefully avoid any connection with research that produces product-specific test results.  For example, you don't see product-specific print permanence research from IPI.  IPI is a well funded non profit research lab connected to a major academic institution (RIT).  It does great work but of a generalized "caring for your photographs" nature.  You won't find Fuji/kodak, HP/Epson, etc. comparisons ever published by IPI because it's parent organization (RIT) understandably wants to maintain good relationships with the entire corporate world.
> 
> Hence, I founded AaI&A to help fill the current print permanence information void for the end-user.  It is this individual photographer or printmaker whom I need to reach for financial support.  I also offer a group sponsorship plan as well.  AaI&A's most likely group sponsors are companies (e.g, a picture framing company) or organizations (e.g, a photography club) that have "no dog in the hunt".  They probably don't sell or manufacture the products AaI&A tests, but their members or customers actively use them and would benefit from a free or discounted membership in AaI&A.  Pro-Imaging.org, an organization of professional photographers, became AaI&A's first group sponsor last September.  The group sponsorship approach may well be the key to AaI&A's success, but I definitely need the help of individual members as well to succeed.  I just have to take it one day at a time.
> 
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Mark
> http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-10 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> I see. I didn't realize you had such a background with the museum community. I also see why you are casting a wide net for end users. There are a lot of them out there.
> 

I just have to find them or they me. But I do believe there are thousands of photographers and printmakers who would subscribe to AaI&A if they haven't already had their minds made up about print longevity from the usual marketing soundbites.

>  It just amazes me how museum curators and gallery owners, and art collectors who are actively selling and buying photographs are so ignorant of what is going on. I mean totally ignorant.  I think part of the reason is that they have never seen a website like yours that actually displays the patches and data as it changes in time, and under varied amounts of light.

Truth be told, very few people, including imaging industry experts, have seen light fastness tests in this new light (bad pun, I know). It took me several years to bring together all the technical components to provide comprehensive light fastness information in this way. The methodology is extensible to other aging mechanisms as well such as gas fade, humidity resistance, thermal degradation. All it takes is more money to expand into those testing protocols. 

The technical part of my job is therefore well under control. However, the "marketing" part is a process of re-educating the public and this task may be the bigger challenge!  The public has been mentally conditioned by years of marketing hype to expect print longevity ratings expressed as a single "years of life" rating when the obvious truth is that any specific print can last seconds or it can last centuries depending on the storage, handling, and display circumstances.  We need to better understand each print type's chemical and physical weaknesses and then match that knowledge up with rational estimates of its likely storage and display environment in order to estimate projected lifetimes. Dumbing it down to a single longevity number take the real world environmental variability out of the equation. That's regrettable because real world variability is huge. For indoor light levels, it typically varies by two to three orders of magnitude, even for the display locations used in a single home. 
> 
> I still have people telling me, today actually,  that Lightjets on Fuji Chrystal Archive is some great product that will last 120 years ( yea maybe in 50 megalux "museum" lighting but I wouldn't  bet on it.)

I think John meant to say 50 lux, so to get to 50 megalux hours with a 50 lux museum lighting intensity, one requires 1 million illuminated hours on display (i.e., about  228 years if lit 12/hours per day at 50 lux).  Now look at the 50 megalux hour test results in the AaI&A test reports for the Crystal archive paper. There are five tested samples (indicative of both processing variability and light fade test unit variability), and these reports have free public access. The results show what kind of fading is induced in Crystal Archive paper by that exposure dose.  How long it takes to  accumulate that dose is up to you.  Pretty informative, if I do say so myself!  

Traditional color photos have been the subject of much research.  Museum specialists know how to care for conventional chromogenic prints like Crystal Archive very well, and it's no lie to say that they can last for centuries when cared for properly. They can also be faded beyond recognition in tougher real world conditions in just a matter of months (e.g., direct florida sunlight streaming through a window onto the Crystal archive print can pile up that 50 megalux hour dose in about 3-6 months rather than the museum's 228 year time frame).  Perhaps people reading these comments can now understand why one predicted display life number is so silly and why AaI&A rates product light fastness with light exposure dose rather than predicted years of display life. 

Simply put, with wisely chosen policies for rotation on and off display (at museum light levels of about 50-100 lux) combined with cool/cold storage, just about any print process can last century after century in near perfect condition.  So, would you like the really easy marketing soundbite?  Well, just use any inkjet printer/ink/media combination, display and store wisely...Eureka, it will last a century or more, no problem!  

Unfortunately, the typical collector (and some museum curators) may not be as aware of the issues as the museum specialist and thus subject his/her prints to high light, temperature, and/or humidity levels that change this whole longevity equation and render any manufacturer's claimed "lifetime" meaningless.  I hope this exposure dose concept makes sense. It's actually analogous to photography's reciprocity law where the photographer can expose an image for longer/shorter times (i.e., vary the shutter speed) at different higher/lower intensities (i.e., vary the f-stop) to achieve the same exposure dose under many different real world lighting conditions. 


cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-10 by john

Right, I meant 50 lux museum lighting at 34 megalux hours (the conservation rating end point for the average patches of this media on your test) = 161 years for Chrystal Archive in very low light levels.

At 450 lux (average illumination) it drops to 17.4 years.

At a bright window light,5000 lux it drops again drastically to 1.6 years.

And exposed to a south facing window like a store front 10,000 lux you get 6 months (if your lucky). This all is the average of all patches and does not tell what would happen to the 3 worst colors in the color chart that would do far worse.

-----

It's interesting that Wilhelm's long published results for Chrystal Archive shows it at 450 lux to have an end point at 40 years or 50 years behind uv glass. That is a long way from 17.4 years that your site reflects. He's allowing for a greater rate of fade (35% ?) before reaching the end point which your saying is way too far and too noticeable? That is the way I'm reading it.  And I don't think he is factoring in the burnout of the optical brighteners. At any rate he's being generous it seems to me.

Ok, I'm through giving away your information. From now on we all need to pay for it regularly. Just wanted to make that more clear if I could. I'm trying to learn also.

john

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-11 by pr_roark

"Mark" <mark@...> wrote:

> ...
> The technical part of my job is ... well under control. 

> However, the "marketing" part ... may be the bigger challenge!

> The public has been mentally conditioned ... to expect print longevity ratings expressed as a single "years of life" rating 

I think "Years on Display" is simple and conveys some comparative information, even if not very complete.  

To fit into their model, I think Mark's AaI "Years on Display" conversion table is like a Rosetta Stone in terms of connecting the test results to Wilhelm's and specific types of environments.

For easier access, I've exerted the Aai conversion table here: 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/AaI-Display-Years-Conversion.pdf

I've added a green underline to help show, as an example, where we're at with the recently released 30 MLux Hours test, but in "Wilhelm years":  30 MLux Hrs = 15 "Years on Display."  What really got my attention was that it's only 3.4 years of commercial gallery display.

The AaI list of tests is at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4346c2hvd19kb2NfbGlzdC80.  The blue ones are public.  A conversion table is on page 4 of these tests, for example, the Canon Lucia on Innova F-type, which is where the excerpted table is found.


> ... any specific print can last seconds or it can last centuries depending on the storage, handling, and display circumstances...


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-11 by john

I totally keep forgetting to ask two things that I've wondered about for a long time,then I'll let this thread drop and get back to work.



1. Does anyone have any link to concrete scientific fade tests of well processed and washed gelatin silver fiber print material (BW)? It seems like I remember RIT publishing data on silver prints many years ago. What kind of conservation rating would be applied to gs prints?



2. What about "dark storage" of type C materials like Fuji Chrystal Archive? I remember Wilhelm writing about how well Cibachrome held up in dark storage (hundreds of years) while C prints did not perform nearly as well. So I'm wondering how I Metric relates to dark storage of C prints in average temp and humidity. 

I know one thing all the Kodak C prints I did 20 years ago are all mostly red now, not showable, and were stored in decent conditions, but certainly not cold, dry storage like a museum vault. Friends and colleagues of mine have all experienced the same degradation. But these were all Kodak C prints. I wonder how much the lack of good thorough washing from  commercial print processors (probably contaminated as hell with bleach fix on the rollers) added to this. 

john

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-11 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> I think "Years on Display" is simple and conveys some comparative information, even if not very complete.  

Yup, I bought into that argument for many years myself, until the light fade ratings started to routinely climb into the 100+ year range, and testing error bars needed to be put on the data. The public takes the scores way too literally, fully believing that a product rated at 96 years is worse than one rated at 101 years when in fact those scores would be statistically insignificant.  Moreover, as a comparative benchmark only, the liberal fade criteria used to achieve those scores allow much non linearity in fading to occur.  So a print process that fades quickly and noticeably but doesn't quite trigger the "easily noticeable" endpoints of the test can get a much better rating than a print process which shows little or no noticeable fade much longer in test, but then reaches endpoint while the system with early fading signs still passes.  I guess a reasonable analogy is: would you rather own a car that breaks down once a year for five years in a row, or 5 times in the fifth year. With a simple scoring algorithm, they would get the same 5 year reliability rating. I guess, all things being equal, I'd take the car that gives me 4.9 trouble free years. But then again, in the fifth year of driving, I might sorely be tempted to change my mind!  All in all, what I'm saying is that discerning consumers will want to know more than just a simple marketing benchmark  in order to make an informed decision about what products are best for their needs.

cheers,

Mark

Re: Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-11 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I totally keep forgetting to ask two things that I've wondered about for a long time,then I'll let this thread drop and get back to work.

me, too.

> 1. Does anyone have any link to concrete scientific fade tests of well processed and washed gelatin silver fiber print material (BW)? It seems like I remember RIT publishing data on silver prints many years ago. What kind of conservation rating would be applied to gs prints?
> 
I can't pull up a reference at this moment, but Arrhenius testing of thermal aging properties has been done. Also, the effects of residual thiosulfate (fixer) in the paper are an ISO standard, but everyone in the preservation field, myself included, always assumed there were no light fastness issues. Although protected by gelatin which is bound to improve OBA stability, the fact that many modern silver gelatin prints contain OBAs does suggest that we ought not to assume.  We ought to run some light fastness tests. It's actually no my "to do" list.
> 
> 2. What about "dark storage" of type C materials like Fuji Chrystal Archive? I remember Wilhelm writing about how well Cibachrome held up in dark storage (hundreds of years) while C prints did not perform nearly as well. So I'm wondering how I Metric relates to dark storage of C prints in average temp and humidity. 

Arrhenius testing works very well to test residual color coupler staining and thermally induced dye fading in C prints. Yes, these tests are convincing and well behaved scientifically speaking, but again, very liberal thermal fading endpoints (25-35% dye loss) are currently used as endpoints. The I* metric, Conservation display rating, and AaI&A test methodology in general could easily be adapted to run thermal aging tests. I have done many thermal aging studies in my time using the traditional criteria. I'd port it all over to the new AaI&A testing methods in a heartbeat were it not for the capital cost of the test chambers (tens of thousands of dollars needed... that's a lot of subscribers, but it could happen!)
> 
> I know one thing all the Kodak C prints I did 20 years ago are all mostly red now, not showable, and were stored in decent conditions, but certainly not cold, dry storage like a museum vault. Friends and colleagues of mine have all experienced the same degradation. But these were all Kodak C prints. I wonder how much the lack of good thorough washing from  commercial print processors (probably contaminated as hell with bleach fix on the rollers) added to this. 
> 

Yes, cyan in general is the most light fast of the chromogenic color dyes and the least thermally stable. Magenta is generally least light fast, but followed closely by yellow. Hence When you see a red shift its thermal aging and consequent greater fade in the cyan dye, when you see blue-green color casts it's light fading with greater fade in the magenta dye and yellow as well. Note: there were some early 1970s chromogenic RC print systems where yellow had some very poor light-induced humidity and temperature fade problems. The titanium dioxide whitening layer produced free-radicals that wrecked the yellow dye, but this problem got solved for the most part.    When Fuji worked to make Crystal Archive more fade balanced (hue shifting is more objectionable to most consumers than contrast changes), they moved ahead in the print longevity race over Kodak, et al. Fuji deliberately selected a less light stable cyan dye, and then developed a much improved magenta dye and stain resistant color couplers.  This allowed a more balanced fade behavior. When you look at the AaI&A light fade test, you see a move in the Crystal Archive towards more purplish-blue in color, but no where near as other brands. Then factor in thermal fade (which you can only do when assuming some mix of light level plus temperature for "average" keeping conditions) and the fade balancing improves the lifetime ratings even more.   I hope this makes sense.  Well documented in the photo conservation literature.


Now, I second your vote to go get some other work done!

cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Re: Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-11 by john

Really interesting stuff. Now if I had just kept my C prints away from Tucson they might have lasted longer.

john

> Yes, cyan in general is the most light fast of the chromogenic color dyes and the least thermally stable. Magenta is generally least light fast, but followed closely by yellow. Hence When you see a red shift its thermal aging and consequent greater fade in the cyan dye, when you see blue-green color casts it's light fading with greater fade in the magenta dye and yellow as well. Note: there were some

[Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-11 by john

Thanks to the digital black and white forum for keeping hope alive.

j

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Great thread. . . .  some really interesting things surfaced.
> 
> I appreciate the information.
> 
> Terry.
> 
> 
> On 10/02/10 8:32 PM, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
>  
> > Now, I second your vote to go get some other work done!
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-11 by Ernst Dinkla

john schreef:

> It's interesting that Wilhelm's long published results for Chrystal 
> Archive shows it at 450 lux to have an end point at 40 years or 50 
> years behind uv glass. That is a long way from 17.4 years that your 
> site reflects. He's allowing for a greater rate of fade (35% ?) 
> before reaching the end point which your saying is way too far and 
> too noticeable? That is the way I'm reading it.  And I don't think he
>  is factoring in the burnout of the optical brighteners. At any rate 
> he's being generous it seems to me.

> 
> john


In 2001? Wilhelm gave Fuji Crystal 60 years, later on 2004?  that
dropped to 40 years.
You will see shops give either the old or new numbers depending on their
interests.

Image Engineering has it at 17 years,
More than 100 at the ozone test (like more RC based prints),
http://www.image-engineering.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=91

For Aardenburg I think the patch number will have an influence. Intended
to give a true rating for printers that replace color mixes with sigle
hue and monochrome dots it may as well be more severe on coupled dyes in
continuous layers = chromogenic prints. Check on what colors fail in
the tests, If they fall outside the Wilhelm patches you have an answer.
Didn't check that so I could be wrong.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-11 by horstenj

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
> 
> Hence, I founded AaI&A to help fill the current print permanence information void for the end-user.  It is this individual photographer or printmaker whom I need to reach for financial support.  

Mark,

This week you've received mine. You have a great initiative and, like many others said already, we need to support you in our own interest.

Joost

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-11 by john

Ernst, you have any idea why this German site is assigning "year" values that are all just about half of what Wilhelm is posting for all the inks?

Looks to me like they aren't testing behind glass? Regardless the longevity relationships between Epson, HP, and Fuji Chrystal Archive are remaining at about the same distance from each other in Aardenburg, Wilhelm, and this IE site. 

What is important in terms of light damage to a print is the dosage a print receives over it's lifetime, however long or short that may be... It is kind of like eating tuna. Tuna these days contains mercury. It won't kill you if you eat a small or moderate amount over a long period of time. But if you increase that dosage of mercury, even in a fairly short period of time, you can develop cancer and die. It's all about the accumulated dosage (megalux hours). 

j 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> In 2001? Wilhelm gave Fuji Crystal 60 years, later on 2004?  that
> dropped to 40 years.
> You will see shops give either the old or new numbers depending on their

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-11 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

> 
> In 2001? Wilhelm gave Fuji Crystal 60 years, later on 2004?  that
> dropped to 40 years.
> You will see shops give either the old or new numbers depending on their
> interests.

Yes, I believe the change reflects the inclusion of fade data for 0.6 density level patches in addition to the previous testing that used only 1.0 density level patches (i.e., the adoption of the newer WIR endpoint criteria set v3.0) .  If you look at the AaI&A test results carefully you will notice that the highlight colors are more affected by fade than the midtones and shadows. Hence, weighting the test results with additional lower density patches will produce a drop in test score which is what happened (ie. 35% density loss occurs more quickly in the 0.6 patches than the 1.0 patches). In other words, considering fade as a change in the photographic tone curve,  the tone curve shifts parallel to its original position for the most part which "pushes" the color reproduction down the curve, and the lightest colors start to clip as they get compressed towards media white point.  Inkjet prints don't respond in fading tests with this very predictable "parallel shift" in the curve like chromogenic color papers  because the color blends aren't  formed by just three stacked layers of isolated dyes (cyan, magenta, and yellow, no black) as they are in chromogenic color prints.

 
> Image Engineering has it at 17 years,
> More than 100 at the ozone test (like more RC based prints),
> http://www.image-engineering.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=91

Yes, the IE and WIR use similar densitometric endpoint criteria, but IE uses a more UV-blue wavelength rich light source than WIR which uses cool white.  Crystal Archive paper incorporates effective UV blockers in a supercoat gelatin layer, so extra UV in the light source doesn't have a pronounced effect on the fade rate of Crystal Archive. it's the extra blue wavelength energy that is the primary reason for IE's lower score than WIR.  AaI&A uses full spectrum/high CRI FL lamps rather than cool white FL, so again, more blue wavelength energy than WIR in the test, and thus closer agreement to IE test scores than WIR.

One other point -there is no right or wrong choice, IMHO, for light sources to use in accelerated light fade tests. Many photographs are indeed being lit primarily  by cool white fluorescent (increasingly common as homes move away from incandescent to FL lamps), others by natural daylight, others by tungsten or halogen, soon LED.  Which spectrum induces the most fading? Well, technically speaking,  glass-filtered Xenon light sources  reproduce theUV/VIW content natural daylight better than others, therefore is arguably the most potent choice for a light fade test. However, IMHO, the light you are using to light you prints is the source that is most damaging!. And many prints are framed nowadays with UV filtering glazing (even standard acrylic significantly filters UV), so an answer derived from rich UV content in test is not always the more appropriate answer.   AaI&A's choice of full spectrum FL strikes a kind of middle ground that reasonably simulates natural daylight but with some filtering of the UV content, and it is a defensible choice as are the sources used by the other labs.  AaI&A went with 5000K 93CRI FSFL to  achieve that extra blue needed to induce most of the fading (and good color discrimination ;-)), but also for economic and environmental reasons. The AaI&A tests are very energy efficient.  Al Gore would approve!

cheers,

Mark
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> For Aardenburg I think the patch number will have an influence. Intended
> to give a true rating for printers that replace color mixes with sigle
> hue and monochrome dots it may as well be more severe on coupled dyes in
> continuous layers = chromogenic prints. Check on what colors fail in
> the tests, If they fall outside the Wilhelm patches you have an answer.
> Didn't check that so I could be wrong.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-11 by Ernst Dinkla

john schreef:
> Ernst, you have any idea why this German site is assigning "year" 
> values that are all just about half of what Wilhelm is posting for 
> all the inks?
> 
> Looks to me like they aren't testing behind glass? Regardless the 
> longevity relationships between Epson, HP, and Fuji Chrystal Archive 
> are remaining at about the same distance from each other in 
> Aardenburg, Wilhelm, and this IE site.
> 
> What is important in terms of light damage to a print is the dosage a
>  print receives over it's lifetime, however long or short that may 
> be... It is kind of like eating tuna. Tuna these days contains 
> mercury. It won't kill you if you eat a small or moderate amount over
>  a long period of time. But if you increase that dosage of mercury, 
> even in a fairly short period of time, you can develop cancer and 
> die. It's all about the accumulated dosage (megalux hours).
> 
> j

The owner says his lamps have a better spectrum but I guess the
arbitrary ratio was set like that :-). You wouldn't set up a new testing
facility and then get years results that are longer than Wilhelm's. 
Doesn't look professional.

It doesn't matter what years, the results from the different labs at 
least show correlation and Mark's method looks like the best one.

Ever thought about the Tuna's health in the first place?  Would be 
better of course if that poisoning showed the symptoms earlier, could 
spare a lot of fish that now is embedded in ice on Tokyo's market.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg Tests Of Fuji Chrystal Archive C print as an example

2010-02-11 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
> Well, technically speaking,  glass-filtered Xenon light sources  reproduce theUV/VIW content ...

Oops, "UV/VIW content"should have read UV/VIS content which is simply technical shorthand for the ultraviolet-visible light energy ratio in the spectrum.

Many researchers in the field of fade testing paints, textiles, photographs, etc., get overly insistent on specifying the UV/VIS content must be similar to noon day sunlight, thus insist on Xenon arc/sunlight simulation, and even say we shouldn't be measuring Lux, rather we should be measuring radiometrically in terms of Watts per square meter (W/sq. m) incident on the sample. This is academic posturing IMHO. In any case, one needs to specify the light source spectrum one is using. Once you know that, whether you track the photopic energy band (Lux), or the UV band, or the total energy band with a thermopile is irrelevant. In each case, one can reconstruct what energy was available in each part of the spectrum.  But if you don't know the spectrum, them no measuring method will allow you to assess efficacy of the fading source.  For example, if you inadvertently used a UV sensor to measure UV filtered light falling on a print, you'd say there was no light at all on the print! Thus, from a practical point of view Lux as a unit of measuremtn is much more accessible to photographers and printmakers. You can buy a Lux meter for as little as $30, and there are even simple ways to estimate lux using a camera meter.  So, I specify lux because it's better for photographers, and then the exposure dose becomes Lux hours. When it gets to millions of lux hours in test, it's easier just to write Megalux hours.  

Then too, there's the endless debate on the importance of the UV in light fading. Yes, the UV energy is the most potent, photon for photon, and as you go to longer wavelengths, ie. blue to green to red, the fade inducing energy per photon drops significantly. But when you look at the entire body of literature on light fading for fabrics, paints, photographs, etc. you learn that natural daylight has a UV/VIS ratio of about 26%, glass filtered sunlight about 15%, indoor interiors lit by natural daylight through window and bouncing off walls about 10%,  whereas glass filtered fluorescent gets down to about 3%, tungsten similar.  Then you look at what tests faded what and how much more damaging was total direct sunlight contribution to the result?  Well, direct sunlight exposure of UV sensitive objects (some aren't that sensitive) versus totally filtered UV content (using filters to cut off essentially all energy below 400 nanometers) results in fade rates of about 2-5x worse.  But for many modern photographic materials that have UV inhibitors and other UV blocking strategies built into the product, to the end-user the benefit of UV blocking glazing is typically about 2-3x factor and in examples like Crystal Archive significantly less than 2x. Now, here's the crux of the matter. The industry has been also been using a standardized illumination level of 450 Lux for 12 hours per day to give you a normalized prediction of years on display. But real world light levels even within just one home let alone in different homes around the world, vary by 2-3 orders of magnitude!  In other words, your choice of location for print display is very likely to cause a 10 to 100 times error for better or worse than the prediction. Again, the reason AaI&A reports accumulated exposure dose rather than extraplating to a normalized display year value.   The UV or no UV argument with its 2-5x factor of significance begins to get lost in that real world of indoor environments. I'm not saying don't be concerned about UV content in your light source, but I am saying even if you filter all of it out, you need to be highly aware of the general illumination level. I think John Dean was trying to say the very same thing.

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-11 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj" <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@> wrote:
> > 
> > Hence, I founded AaI&A to help fill the current print permanence information void for the end-user.  It is this individual photographer or printmaker whom I need to reach for financial support.  
> 
> Mark,
> 
> This week you've received mine. You have a great initiative and, like many others said already, we need to support you in our own interest.
> 
> Joost
>

To Joost, and the other digital BW readers who have recently joined, each new member that joins the AaI&A digital print research program gives me a real boost in spirit. It keeps me going, so I thank you all.

Joost, I note you are from the Netherlands, and FWIW, AaI&A's main population of members is understandably from the U.S, but I have members from all over the world now. Interestingly, there are now three rich pockets of geographical membership elsewhere;  the U.K., Australia, and the Netherlands!  I'm really curious about this. I understand the U.K demographic as Pro-imaging.org, an organization dedicated to professional photographers, became my first group sponsor. Australia is partly defined by a surge of interest in my research on cold storage of photographic collections, but there are likely other reasons as well. As for the Netherlands? I have no clue, but it may just be that my members in the Netherlands may well identify with the the name of my company. The name can indeed be attributed to the small city of Aardenburg in the Netherlands.  My wife's grandparents emigrated from Aardenburg to the U.S. at the turn of the 20th century. 

kind regards,
Mark

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-11 by john

That's because they speak English. I would expect some from Scandinavia and India also, though they don't read these lists as much I don't think.

j





 there are now three rich pockets of geographical membership elsewhere;  the U.K., Australia, and the Netherlands!  I'm really curious about this.

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-11 by Ernst Dinkla

Mark schreef:

> As for the Netherlands? I have no clue,
> but it may just be that my members in the Netherlands may well
> identify with the the name of my company. The name can indeed be
> attributed to the small city of Aardenburg in the Netherlands.  My
> wife's grandparents emigrated from Aardenburg to the U.S. at the turn
> of the 20th century.
> 
> kind regards, Mark
> 
> 


Mark,


Is it very recent, this Dutch interest in Aardenburg-Imaging or right
from the beginning?

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-11 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

> Mark,
> 
> 
> Is it very recent, this Dutch interest in Aardenburg-Imaging or right
> from the beginning?

The trend emerged last September, some time after the first round of discussion about the AaI&A research on the digital BW forum. Prior to the emergence of the trend, a professional colleague of mine and head of a photographic conservation school in Denmark joined AaI&A. But the new members are largely professional printmakers, so I can't connect the dots.

As John noted, the international pockets of membership have great fluency in English, but other countries like Japan actually do, too. Yet it's just these three geographic locations that stand out in my membership roster. France is starting to become another well represented country, but not so strong at the first three I mentioned just yet. The internet is fascinating to me what with the ability to take my research global for very little capital required.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for the kind words, and efforts made on my behalf to spread the word about the AaI&A digital print research program.

cheers,

Mark

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-12 by tboleyyh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
>
> ....
> Non profit organizations like museums and archives also rely heavily on corporate donations. They would therefore carefully avoid any connection with research that produces product-specific test results.  For example, you don't see product-specific print permanence research from IPI.  IPI is a well funded non profit research lab connected to a major academic institution (RIT).  It does great work but of a generalized "caring for your photographs" nature.  You won't find Fuji/kodak, HP/Epson, etc. comparisons ever published by IPI because it's parent organization (RIT) understandably wants to maintain good relationships with the entire corporate world...

And there you have it. It's more and more difficult to survive in this environment remaining independent. Even in my little world, competing with others willing to align with and join company's "community" eliminates me from certain competitive benefits, I'm sure others on this list remaining unaffiliated know what I mean.
I hope the community whose interest you continue to favor are able to adequately support your efforts, we need you. This economy is not helping keep our options open at all...
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-12 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

> And there you have it. It's more and more difficult to survive in this environment remaining independent. Even in my little world, competing with others willing to align with and join company's "community" eliminates me from certain competitive benefits, I'm sure others on this list remaining unaffiliated know what I mean.
> I hope the community whose interest you continue to favor are able to adequately support your efforts, we need you. This economy is not helping keep our options open at all...
> Tyler
>

Tyler, Having had the privilege of visiting your studio last summer, I know you are a fine printmaker and that those skills have great value to our society.  But when recessions hit, the arts are the first to get clobbered. In my case, print permanence research is getting clobbered as well because society is making a paradigm shift to electronic displays. Traditionally framed prints and photographs are the cornerstone of my research, and in today's marketplace my expertise is less and less needed.  But it's what I love, so I continue to try to find a safe harbor. I hope you will, too.

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-12 by horstenj

Hi Mark,

I don't have an explanation other than that we are small country with a strong history in international trade. I guess that could make is more internationally oriented....? The reverse is also true: I get more traffic on my website from the US then from NL, with UK a solid third.

Indeed the "Aardenburg-connection" was a small trigger. A first name "Mark" still fits Dutch profile. But you lost me with "McCormick"....;-)

Just curious: how many Dutch members do you have then? I'm only aware of Ernst and myself. And even although we live in the same city, our communication channel is this forum ;-)

Joost



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@> wrote:
> 
> > Mark,
> > 
> > 
> > Is it very recent, this Dutch interest in Aardenburg-Imaging or right
> > from the beginning?
> 
> The trend emerged last September, some time after the first round of discussion about the AaI&A research on the digital BW forum.

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-12 by Paul

Mark,

I'm glad to see all this activity and support... you deserve every bit of it! I'm trying to get my acquaintances to visit your site and join up. I've passed the word on to the photo people at the State Historic Preservation Office here in Montana. We have a sparse population here to be sure but every member counts.

In the "about AIA" section of your site I think you're being way too modest. In one message here you mentioned your impressive work at, what was it, the Smithsonian? The carries a lot of weight and it might help those considering membership to sign up.

I think you're in the habit of doing this already, but would you be able to let this forum know when you start a new "batch"? If that's too much hassle, I can understand - you're got plenty else to do! Perhaps the MMG tab takes care of that.

Regards,

Paul
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:

 
> Tyler, Having had the privilege of visiting your studio last summer, I know you are a fine printmaker and that those skills have great value to our society.  But when recessions hit, the arts are the first to get clobbered. In my case, print permanence research is getting clobbered as well because society is making a paradigm shift to electronic displays. Traditionally framed prints and photographs are the cornerstone of my research, and in today's marketplace my expertise is less and less needed.  But it's what I love, so I continue to try to find a safe harbor. I hope you will, too.
>

Re: [Digital BW] Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-12 by Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

> I think you're in the habit of doing this already, but would you be able to let this forum know when you start a new "batch"? If that's too much hassle, I can understand - you're got plenty else to do! Perhaps the MMG tab takes care of that.

Yes, mmgnotes is generally where to find comments about new tests. On occasion, this information lands on the AaI&A news page as well.  Visiting my site once or twice a month is probably all that is required to stay current. I'm aiming for a site that AaI&A members and the public will want to visit much more often, but it takes both time and money to get there and I don't have enough of either...yet ;-)

Everyone, thanks for the kind words.  I'm going to bow out gracefully now, as many test samples need my attention.  I hope the entire thread has covered solid ground on the fundamentals (and politics) of light fade testing and thus serves a greater purpose. Digital BW rules!

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-13 by richardeskin

Have you tried any of the higher end galleries?  It would seem to me that they would have the greatest interest in understanding the longevity of what they are selling to keep happy customers.  Over time, as more and more photographic art as well as art prints are being made with ink jet technology, they would have greatest need to consider longevity in assigning a value to an art work.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@> wrote:
> >
> > ....
> > Non profit organizations like museums and archives also rely heavily on corporate donations. They would therefore carefully avoid any connection with research that produces product-specific test results.  For example, you don't see product-specific print permanence research from IPI.  IPI is a well funded non profit research lab connected to a major academic institution (RIT).  It does great work but of a generalized "caring for your photographs" nature.  You won't find Fuji/kodak, HP/Epson, etc. comparisons ever published by IPI because it's parent organization (RIT) understandably wants to maintain good relationships with the entire corporate world...
> 
> And there you have it. It's more and more difficult to survive in this environment remaining independent. Even in my little world, competing with others willing to align with and join company's "community" eliminates me from certain competitive benefits, I'm sure others on this list remaining unaffiliated know what I mean.
> I hope the community whose interest you continue to favor are able to adequately support your efforts, we need you. This economy is not helping keep our options open at all...
> Tyler
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-13 by E.Neilsen

AIPAD would be a prime choice to help understand these issues since the
number of prints coming from this new image stream is increasing. Digital
B&W images will benefit greatly in from Mark's research, I am afraid he hit
it on the head when he mentioned the new avenue of expression; projected
images. The print industry is in decline due to that.  

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
richardeskin
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 10:38 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

 

  

Have you tried any of the higher end galleries? It would seem to me that
they would have the greatest interest in understanding the longevity of what
they are selling to keep happy customers. Over time, as more and more
photographic art as well as art prints are being made with ink jet
technology, they would have greatest need to consider longevity in assigning
a value to an art work.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@> wrote:
> >
> > ....
> > Non profit organizations like museums and archives also rely heavily on
corporate donations. They would therefore carefully avoid any connection
with research that produces product-specific test results. For example, you
don't see product-specific print permanence research from IPI. IPI is a well
funded non profit research lab connected to a major academic institution
(RIT). It does great work but of a generalized "caring for your photographs"
nature. You won't find Fuji/kodak, HP/Epson, etc. comparisons ever published
by IPI because it's parent organization (RIT) understandably wants to
maintain good relationships with the entire corporate world...
> 
> And there you have it. It's more and more difficult to survive in this
environment remaining independent. Even in my little world, competing with
others willing to align with and join company's "community" eliminates me
from certain competitive benefits, I'm sure others on this list remaining
unaffiliated know what I mean.
> I hope the community whose interest you continue to favor are able to
adequately support your efforts, we need you. This economy is not helping
keep our options open at all...
> Tyler
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-14 by Ernst Dinkla

E.Neilsen schreef:
> AIPAD would be a prime choice to help understand these issues since the
> number of prints coming from this new image stream is increasing. Digital
> B&W images will benefit greatly in from Mark's research, I am afraid he hit
> it on the head when he mentioned the new avenue of expression; projected
> images. The print industry is in decline due to that.  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen

Wonder what will happen when the projected images are copied like
happens in the music industry and starts to happen in e-books. Maybe it
isn't a bad idea to sell your images as prints.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

[Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-15 by john

Exactly, we were talking about that last week when contemplating the emergence of virtual photography on HD screens in galleries and homes. It will be one step away from the form of Torrent music and movie downloads that Hollywood has already secretly admitted is unstoppable and progressing by the day. Each copy is identical and the faster the bandwidth...pretty soon you can download huge amounts of visual data (video with sound for instance) to your smart phone much less your pc. 

I have a friend who watches all the new movies on a laptop downloaded from a Chinese web site just as they are hitting the theaters. Who needs nexflix and who will need to buy anything in that form from a gallery for virtual photography.

That will make inkjet quaint and unique like drawings or watercolors. What a strange world.

j
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Wonder what will happen when the projected images are copied like
> happens in the music industry and starts to happen in e-books. Maybe it
> isn't a bad idea to sell your images as prints.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

[Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-15 by tboleyyh

I think that may contribute, but I think it's far from the whole picture. Video screens have been around for some time, and even though they are used more and more for little home snaps, and some art, I doubt it's having that big of an impact amongst those that share our interests.
No one wants a Frederick Sommer on a vid screen, they want a fine print, a masterly  crafted object. No collector, museum, etc.. Those of use concerned about whether 6 or 7 grays inks are enough, the dimensional quality of one surface over another, and dare I say it- longevity, are going to suddenly decide they have a deep visceral response to an image represented with far less subtle object appeal?
The tradition still alive in photography includes literally selecting and preparing our imagery specifically to come alive on particular materials because of an individual artists affinity to them, along with the imagery they produce. Content and materials have always been married in many kinds of art.
Of course there are video artists with the same approach, for that kind of presentation, but it's very different. There are and will be still artists also doing that, but they won't be lessening the ranks of those now concerned with the fine print to any great degree.
I still think it has much to do with the complete shift in the business community we are now dependent on for our materials and processes, we have far fewer options, and they have very different concerns, and of course the economy, which further hampers a wide variety of niche ventures...
Sorry to go on and on... none of the people I'm in regular contact with in the photography and art community have expressed any interest in video image presentation other than as an entirely different art.
It gets back to our own community being the support for efforts like Mark's, which may be too small, which puts us in a position of widening the interest group to others with whom we interact in other ways such as the group you mention and others, rather than just finding more of us.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> AIPAD would be a prime choice to help understand these issues since the
> number of prints coming from this new image stream is increasing. Digital
> B&W images will benefit greatly in from Mark's research, I am afraid he hit
> it on the head when he mentioned the new avenue of expression; projected
> images. The print industry is in decline due to that.  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
>  
> 
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> skype me with ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> richardeskin
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 10:38 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> Have you tried any of the higher end galleries? It would seem to me that
> they would have the greatest interest in understanding the longevity of what
> they are selling to keep happy customers. Over time, as more and more
> photographic art as well as art prints are being made with ink jet
> technology, they would have greatest need to consider longevity in assigning
> a value to an art work.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > ....
> > > Non profit organizations like museums and archives also rely heavily on
> corporate donations. They would therefore carefully avoid any connection
> with research that produces product-specific test results. For example, you
> don't see product-specific print permanence research from IPI. IPI is a well
> funded non profit research lab connected to a major academic institution
> (RIT). It does great work but of a generalized "caring for your photographs"
> nature. You won't find Fuji/kodak, HP/Epson, etc. comparisons ever published
> by IPI because it's parent organization (RIT) understandably wants to
> maintain good relationships with the entire corporate world...
> > 
> > And there you have it. It's more and more difficult to survive in this
> environment remaining independent. Even in my little world, competing with
> others willing to align with and join company's "community" eliminates me
> from certain competitive benefits, I'm sure others on this list remaining
> unaffiliated know what I mean.
> > I hope the community whose interest you continue to favor are able to
> adequately support your efforts, we need you. This economy is not helping
> keep our options open at all...
> > Tyler
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results

2010-02-15 by BKPhoto@aol.com

I agree with Tyler on this. What I have seen over the past thirty-five years, accelerated over the past decade, is a growing distinction between consumerism and connoisseurship. Obviously consumerism will increasingly lead to more and more images--of all types--being viewed electronically. The vast, vast majority of electronic images will be disposable (but not all of them). The connoisseur's appreciation for the physical objective remains, and intensifies in response to commercialism. I think this means that a small, active, dedicated market will continue to grow for prints (of all types). A small market, to be sure, compared to the consumer market but that really isn't different from any time in the past.


Those interested in making prints need to market what they make to those who appreciate and want to own it. Mark's work is a boon; it helps clarify the marketing message. So is the work done by people like Tyler, and others on this list, that show what can be accomplished when inkjet printing is subject to a relentless aesthetic. The winners in the connoisseur market will be those who appropriate the capability of new technologies to sell what they make. In some measure this means changing the traditional relationship between artists and gallery. Another is that more artists will become their own publishers. This is already happening and will only gain momentum.


Personally, I think the future of fine art printing is very bright. Challenging, to be sure, but ripe with opportunity. The key is to understand that loving to making images doesn't equate to financial success; having a sound business plan does. It's been my experience that I can count the number of artists with a business plan on one hand.




Bill Kennedy
K2 Press, Inc.
Austin, Texas
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: tboleyyh <tyler@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Feb 14, 2010 11:20 pm
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results


  
    
                  


I think that may contribute, but I think it's far from the whole picture. Video screens have been around for some time, and even though they are used more and more for little home snaps, and some art, I doubt it's having that big of an impact amongst those that share our interests.
No one wants a Frederick Sommer on a vid screen, they want a fine print, a masterly  crafted object. No collector, museum, etc.. Those of use concerned about whether 6 or 7 grays inks are enough, the dimensional quality of one surface over another, and dare I say it- longevity, are going to suddenly decide they have a deep visceral response to an image represented with far less subtle object appeal?
The tradition still alive in photography includes literally selecting and preparing our imagery specifically to come alive on particular materials because of an individual artists affinity to them, along with the imagery they produce. Content and materials have always been married in many kinds of art.
Of course there are video artists with the same approach, for that kind of presentation, but it's very different. There are and will be still artists also doing that, but they won't be lessening the ranks of those now concerned with the fine print to any great degree.
I still think it has much to do with the complete shift in the business community we are now dependent on for our materials and processes, we have far fewer options, and they have very different concerns, and of course the economy, which further hampers a wide variety of niche ventures...
Sorry to go on and on... none of the people I'm in regular contact with in the photography and art community have expressed any interest in video image presentation other than as an entirely different art.
It gets back to our own community being the support for efforts like Mark's, which may be too small, which puts us in a position of widening the interest group to others with whom we interact in other ways such as the group you mention and others, rather than just finding more of us.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> AIPAD would be a prime choice to help understand these issues since the
> number of prints coming from this new image stream is increasing. Digital
> B&W images will benefit greatly in from Mark's research, I am afraid he hit
> it on the head when he mentioned the new avenue of expression; projected
> images. The print industry is in decline due to that.  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
>  
> 
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> skype me with ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> richardeskin
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 10:38 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Aardenburg-Imaging 30 MLux Hr results
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> Have you tried any of the higher end galleries? It would seem to me that
> they would have the greatest interest in understanding the longevity of what
> they are selling to keep happy customers. Over time, as more and more
> photographic art as well as art prints are being made with ink jet
> technology, they would have greatest need to consider longevity in assigning
> a value to an art work.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > ....
> > > Non profit organizations like museums and archives also rely heavily on
> corporate donations. They would therefore carefully avoid any connection
> with research that produces product-specific test results. For example, you
> don't see product-specific print permanence research from IPI. IPI is a well
> funded non profit research lab connected to a major academic institution
> (RIT). It does great work but of a generalized "caring for your photographs"
> nature. You won't find Fuji/kodak, HP/Epson, etc. comparisons ever published
> by IPI because it's parent organization (RIT) understandably wants to
> maintain good relationships with the entire corporate world...
> > 
> > And there you have it. It's more and more difficult to survive in this
> environment remaining independent. Even in my little world, competing with
> others willing to align with and join company's "community" eliminates me
> from certain competitive benefits, I'm sure others on this list remaining
> unaffiliated know what I mean.
> > I hope the community whose interest you continue to favor are able to
> adequately support your efforts, we need you. This economy is not helping
> keep our options open at all...
> > Tyler
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


    
             

  
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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