Doepfer

Hi,

playing with my A-155 the last days the problem/question arose again:
If I do stop and reset. The reset jumps to step 1. The first clock after 
start makes it to advance to step 2 with the first note.

Ok, I could think step 2 as first, but if I want to use the reset while 
the sequence is running, it would not reset to 2 (the intended first 
step), but to 1 (the technical real first step).

So what I need is some trick which suppresses the clock to advance the 
counter with the first step.
I know how to do this by some logic and flip-flops, but I have no idea 
how to achieve this with the means of the A-100 (and no, I do not want 
to use a lot of A-166 to create flipflops).

Florian

I don't think there's an easy solution to this problem, or at least not
using existing modules. I think the least hard way to get the effect that
you want is to send a reset pulse simultaneously with the first clock pulse.
You could use an A160 to make sure that the sequencer got a reset pulse
every 8/16/32 steps, thus ensuring that if you (re)started the sequence at
the beginning of a bar it would start from step one. Just don't
stop/reset/restart your A160...

I have plans to build my own sequencer in addition to the 155 I got. When I
do so I'm tempted to go with a design that will allow both reset to step one
and reset to last step on different reset inputs (& buttons) - I expect this
feature to make life a lot easier ;)

Cheers,

Silas

On 6/12/07, Florian Anwander <Florian.Anwander@consol.de> wrote:
>
>   Hi,
>
> playing with my A-155 the last days the problem/question arose again:
> If I do stop and reset. The reset jumps to step 1. The first clock after
> start makes it to advance to step 2 with the first note.
>
> Ok, I could think step 2 as first, but if I want to use the reset while
> the sequence is running, it would not reset to 2 (the intended first
> step), but to 1 (the technical real first step).
>
> So what I need is some trick which suppresses the clock to advance the
> counter with the first step.
> I know how to do this by some logic and flip-flops, but I have no idea
> how to achieve this with the means of the A-100 (and no, I do not want
> to use a lot of A-166 to create flipflops).
>
> Florian
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Silas

> using existing modules. I think the least hard way to get the effect that
> you want is to send a reset pulse simultaneously with the first clock pulse.
This was my first try, but it does not work. I even tried to delay the 
reset trigger.

Florian

just a question- why don't u use an A-154 - it doesn't have this  problem 
>        
>    
>   
>    
>   
> Hi Silas
>  
 >> using existing modules. I think the least hard way to get the effect that
 >> you want is to send a reset pulse simultaneously with the first clock pulse.
>  This was my first try, but it does not work. I even tried to delay the
>  reset trigger.
>  
>  Florian
>  
>   
>       
>       


-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
verstaerker
mailto:verstaerker@verstaerker-music.net

you could use a CV adressing the steps; draw a stepped controller  
curve in your DAW sequencer.

only works for certain situations, though.

denis
> Hi Silas
>
> > using existing modules. I think the least hard way to get the  
> effect that
> > you want is to send a reset pulse simultaneously with the first  
> clock pulse.
> This was my first try, but it does not work. I even tried to delay the
> reset trigger.
>
> Florian
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi

> just a question- why don't u use an A-154 - it doesn't have this  problem 
Because I have no need of the (other) features of the A-154; and 
spending extra 170 Euros for only to get a start/stop/reset behaviour 
that I would expect by default?

Florian

good point ;)

>        
>    
>   
>    
>   
> Hi
>  
 >> just a question- why don't u use an A-154 - it doesn't have this  problem 
>  Because I have no need of the (other) features of the A-154; and 
>  spending extra 170 Euros for only to get a start/stop/reset behaviour
>  that I would expect by default?
>  
>  Florian
>  
>   
>       
>

oh man, sorry, confused 155 and 154
On 12. Jun 2007, at 1:34 PM, Denis Gökdag wrote:

> you could use a CV adressing the steps; draw a stepped controller
> curve in your DAW sequencer.
>
> only works for certain situations, though.
>
> denis
> > Hi Silas
> >
> > > using existing modules. I think the least hard way to get the
> > effect that
> > > you want is to send a reset pulse simultaneously with the first
> > clock pulse.
> > This was my first try, but it does not work. I even tried to  
> delay the
> > reset trigger.
> >
> > Florian
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Hi,
>
> playing with my A-155 the last days the problem/question arose again:
> If I do stop and reset. The reset jumps to step 1. The first clock after
> start makes it to advance to step 2 with the first note.
>
> Ok, I could think step 2 as first, but if I want to use the reset while
> the sequence is running, it would not reset to 2 (the intended first
> step), but to 1 (the technical real first step).
>
> So what I need is some trick which suppresses the clock to advance the
> counter with the first step.
> I know how to do this by some logic and flip-flops, but I have no idea
> how to achieve this with the means of the A-100 (and no, I do not want
> to use a lot of A-166 to create flipflops).
>
> Florian

The problem has been solved with the A-154 as controller for the A-155. A
reset "prepares" the internal logic for the "real" reset. The advance to
step 1 takes place at the next clock pulse. But we already got some
complaints about this behaviour as the people are used to the behaviour
where a reset causes an immediate jump to step 1.

Best wishes
Dieter

Hi Denis

> you could use a CV adressing the steps; draw a stepped controller  
> curve in your DAW sequencer.
In german we call this: "shoot with a cannon to a sparrow".
And honestly: I try to avoid to switch on a computer when making music...

Florian

Then you could build your own counter module and replace the one in  
the 155.

there are counter ICs that after receiving a reset pulse will wait  
with incrementing their state untill they receive the next clock pulse .

this is obviously also a lot of work, but you could get an IC with up/ 
down selection for instance.



btw: surface-to-air missiles are a lot more effective against those  
birds, believe it.... ;-)


denis

On 12. Jun 2007, at 4:45 PM, Florian Anwander wrote:

> Hi Denis
>
> > you could use a CV adressing the steps; draw a stepped controller
> > curve in your DAW sequencer.
> In german we call this: "shoot with a cannon to a sparrow".
> And honestly: I try to avoid to switch on a computer when making  
> music...
>
> Florian
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have just installed an A-154 into my system and noticed similar
behaviour to that described in the initial post. If you hit reset
whilst the sequencer is running it will actually play step 2 as the
first note. I have heard that this is a problem with many sequencers
too though. The option to have reset to step 8 rather than step 1
would be really nice as this would alleviate this issue ensuring that
the next clock cycle advances to step 1.

Cheers,
Adam-V
--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, verstaerker <verstaerker@...> wrote:
>
> just a question- why don't u use an A-154 - it doesn't have this 
problem

What???
My 154 just stops on the actual step and when i start again - it starts at One

also pressing reset during playback goes back to One

Do u probably have an old version of the 154!?  

>
I have just installed an A-154 into my system and noticed similar
behaviour to that described in the initial post. If you hit reset
whilst the sequencer is running it will actually play step 2 as the
first note. I have heard that this is a problem with many sequencers
too though. The option to have reset to step 8 rather than step 1
would be really nice as this would alleviate this issue ensuring that
the next clock cycle advances to step 1.

Cheers,
Adam-V
--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, verstaerker <verstaerker@...> wrote:
>
> just a question- why don't u use an A-154 - it doesn't have this 
problem 

 





-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
verstaerker
mailto:verstaerker@verstaerker-music.net

It should be the latest version, I only received it from Doepfer on
Friday. 

I'll have to double check the behaviour when I get home from work
tonight but I'm certain was mine starting at step 2 when reset was
pressed while the sequence was running. It does stay on the current
step when you press stop but I can't recall what happens if you then
press reset, I'll have to check this tonight too.

Cheers,
Adam-V
--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, verstaerker <verstaerker@...> wrote:
>
> What???
> My 154 just stops on the actual step and when i start again - it
starts at One

> 
> also pressing reset during playback goes back to One
> 
> Do u probably have an old version of the 154!?  
> 
> >
> I have just installed an A-154 into my system and noticed similar
> behaviour to that described in the initial post. If you hit reset
> whilst the sequencer is running it will actually play step 2 as the
> first note. I have heard that this is a problem with many sequencers
> too though. The option to have reset to step 8 rather than step 1
> would be really nice as this would alleviate this issue ensuring that
> the next clock cycle advances to step 1.
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam-V
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, verstaerker <verstaerker@> wrote:
> >
> > just a question- why don't u use an A-154 - it doesn't have this 
> problem 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> verstaerker
> mailto:verstaerker@...
>

OK I have had time to check this out and found the following:

With the A-154 in Forward mode, pressing reset causes the sequence to
start from step 1 on the next clock cycle if the sequence is running
or on the next press of the start button if it is stopped.

With the A-154 in Reverse mode, pressing reset causes the sequence to
start from step 8 on the next clock cycle if the sequence is running
or on the next press of the start button if it is stopped.

I believe this is the correct and desired behaviour for both modes.

With the A-154 in Pendulum mode, pressing reset causes the sequence to
start from step 2 on the next clock cycle if the sequence is running
or on the next press of the start button if it is stopped.

I would have expected the sequence to restart on step 1 as with the
forward mode.

Sorry if I confused anyone with my previous post but I knew I saw this
behaviour just the other day but I must have been running in pendulum
mode.

Regards,
Adam-V
--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Adam-V" <adam-v@...> wrote:

>
> It should be the latest version, I only received it from Doepfer on
> Friday. 
> 
> I'll have to double check the behaviour when I get home from work
> tonight but I'm certain was mine starting at step 2 when reset was
> pressed while the sequence was running. It does stay on the current
> step when you press stop but I can't recall what happens if you then
> press reset, I'll have to check this tonight too.
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam-V

Hi

> behaviour to that described in the initial post. If you hit reset
> whilst the sequencer is running it will actually play step 2 as the
> first note. 
I think, this is occasionally - its a question of timing.

You may check what happens if you feed the reset from a trigger out of 
the A-155.


> I have heard that this is a problem with many sequencers
> too though. The option to have reset to step 8 rather than step 1
> would be really nice as this would alleviate this issue ensuring that
> the next clock cycle advances to step 1.
Yes, but again, the reset in runnning mode as described would cause a 
step back to step 8 instead  of step 1.

Florian

i think it's a bit confusing for users that both devices react differently

what about a switch on both devices to switch between both behaviours

>  The problem has been solved with the A-154 as controller for the A-155. A
>  reset "prepares" the internal logic for the "real" reset. The advance to
>  step 1 takes place at the next clock pulse. But we already got some
>  complaints about this behaviour as the people are used to the behaviour
>  where a reset causes an immediate jump to step 1.
>  
>  Best wishes
>  Dieter
>  
>  
>   
>       
>       


-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
verstaerker
mailto:verstaerker@verstaerker-music.net

> there are counter ICs that after receiving a reset pulse will wait
> with incrementing their state untill they receive the next clock pulse .

Denis,

very interesting. Can you tell me the name of this counter circuit. Maybe we
could do a redesign of the A-155 controller board. Now a CD4024 is used as
counter.

Dieter

As far as I remember the A-154 resets to the step defined by the "first
step" control. But I'm not 100% sure. Unfortunately I have no A-154/A-155
available to try it out. My complete demo system has been sold and I'm about
to arrange my new "private" system.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von Adam-V
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2007 00:40
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Re: A-155 - how to start on first step after
> reset?
>
>
> I have just installed an A-154 into my system and noticed similar
> behaviour to that described in the initial post. If you hit reset
> whilst the sequencer is running it will actually play step 2 as the
> first note. I have heard that this is a problem with many sequencers
> too though. The option to have reset to step 8 rather than step 1
> would be really nice as this would alleviate this issue ensuring that
> the next clock cycle advances to step 1.
>
> Cheers,
> Adam-V
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, verstaerker <verstaerker@...> wrote:
> >
> > just a question- why don't u use an A-154 - it doesn't have this
> problem
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I will see if there is a chance to add another switch to the A-154 but from
the first glance this will be a problem as there is no space at the front
panel left and all port inputs of the microcontroller are used. Maybe a
special control setting (e.g. first step fully clockwise) could be used to
trigger the second reset mode (i.e. immediate reset to step 1).

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von verstaerker
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2007 09:37
> An: hardware@doepfer.de
> Betreff: Re: AW: [Doepfer_a100] A-155 - how to start on first step after
> reset?
>
>
> i think it's a bit confusing for users that both devices react differently
>
> what about a switch on both devices to switch between both behaviours
>
> >  The problem has been solved with the A-154 as controller for
> the A-155. A
> >  reset "prepares" the internal logic for the "real" reset. The
> advance to
> >  step 1 takes place at the next clock pulse. But we already got some
> >  complaints about this behaviour as the people are used to the behaviour
> >  where a reset causes an immediate jump to step 1.
> >
> >  Best wishes
> >  Dieter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> verstaerker
> mailto:verstaerker@verstaerker-music.net
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi Dieter

we do not want to have this, because a reset while playmode would show 
the same behaviour.

This "wait for second step"-behaviour should only be shown if the reset 
comes while stop mode or at the didentical moment with the 
start-trigger. I think this requires some RS-Flipflop work...

Florian



hardware@doepfer.de wrote:

>>there are counter ICs that after receiving a reset pulse will wait
>>with incrementing their state untill they receive the next clock pulse .
> 
> 
> Denis,
> 
> very interesting. Can you tell me the name of this counter circuit. Maybe we
> could do a redesign of the A-155 controller board. Now a CD4024 is used as
> counter.
> 
> Dieter
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Florian Anwander                  |ConSol
Tel.   +49(89)45841-133           |Consulting&Solutions Software GmbH
Fax    +49(89)45841-111           |Franziskanerstr. 38, D-81669 München
email: florian.anwander@consol.de |http://www.consol.de

Ok,

I think, I've got it:

The core is an RS-Flipflop, which is controlled at SET by the halftime
clock (dived by 2) and by the the Stop trigger at RESET. The Q-Out
controls an AND which enables the Clock:

Clock---------+------------------\
               |                  |
Start---Reset-x/2                \--AND
               |       ......        AND----Clock to seq-counter
               \-------.S  Q.--------AND
Stop------------------.R -Q.
                       ......

Should work like that:
"Stop" resets the Q to low. This disables the Clock at the Sequencer
counter. Start resets the divider which diveds the clock. So the divided
clock is low. At the second clock pulse the divided clock becomes high
-> the high activates set, which enables the clok in the AND.

Florian


Florian Anwander wrote:

> Hi Dieter
> 
> we do not want to have this, because a reset while playmode would show 
> the same behaviour.
> 
> This "wait for second step"-behaviour should only be shown if the reset 
> comes while stop mode or at the didentical moment with the 
> start-trigger. I think this requires some RS-Flipflop work...
> 
> Florian
> 
> 
> 
> hardware@doepfer.de wrote:
> 
>>> there are counter ICs that after receiving a reset pulse will wait
>>> with incrementing their state untill they receive the next clock pulse .
>>
>>
>>
>> Denis,
>>
>> very interesting. Can you tell me the name of this counter circuit. 
>> Maybe we
>> could do a redesign of the A-155 controller board. Now a CD4024 is 
>> used as
>> counter.
>>
>> Dieter
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 

-- 
Florian Anwander                  |ConSol
Tel.   +49(89)45841-133           |Consulting&Solutions Software GmbH
Fax    +49(89)45841-111           |Franziskanerstr. 38, D-81669 München
email: florian.anwander@consol.de |http://www.consol.de

hi all,

pardon my butting in at this late stage but: the suggestion to reset to the last step seems 
to have passed unnoticed. i'm looking at this from a slightly different perspective, in that 
i'm only using a 160/161 combo, but the behaviour of the 161 is also a headache in this 
respect.

the on/off status of the gates of the 160 is no more or less of an issue than if they were 
reversed - depends what you're doing with them - but i think most users will probably 
need the 161 to start on the first step after a stop/reset. a reset without the stop is a 
different matter, of course, but i'll bet a quid that most of us use the reset after a stop 
more often than during a run. 

(except for those 5 and 7 step sequences, so:)

an a-161b which resets to step 8 would be a useful alternative for me. or better yet, a 
jumper on the circuit board (ditto for the 154 and 155) to let the user decide i.e. no space 
problems ?

sorry for the noobie stuff :)

stu

p.s. @ dieter: how about a bus connection on the 161 for a second 161 running from the 
same 160 ?

Hi Stu

> an a-161b which resets to step 8 would be a useful alternative for me. 
The most simple way is: use socket 8 as 1, socket 1 as 2 and so on. No 
b-version module required.

> p.s. @ dieter: how about a bus connection on the 161 for a second 161 running from the 
> same 160 ?
You can diy it: its simply pressing a second connector on the flat 
cable. No soldering required.

Florian

> p.s. @ dieter: how about a bus connection on the 161 for a second 161
running from the same 160 ?

That's easy. You simple need a 10 pin cable with 3 female connectors (one
for the A-160, one for A-161 #1 and one for A-161 #2).

But I cannot see an application for this purpose. The outputs of the second
A-161 would be a 1:1 copy of the first one unless you use different clocks
or resets for the two units. But this requires some DIY as mentioned in one
of my former messages.

Best wishes
Dieter

@ dieter: that's more or less what i'm looking at - bending the 160/161 to run from a 
subdivision of the input to the 160, i.e. one of the 160's outputs. if i can manage that, 
then i'd like to try to get two 161s running at different speeds.

if i can reset them separately too - thanks for your post on this - then i can have them in 
different time signatures too.

all of which would give me a pretty flexible sequencer combo for just 12TE, more so if i 
add a vcs to it.

stu
--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <hardware@...> wrote:

>
> > p.s. @ dieter: how about a bus connection on the 161 for a second 161
> running from the same 160 ?
> 
> That's easy. You simple need a 10 pin cable with 3 female connectors (one
> for the A-160, one for A-161 #1 and one for A-161 #2).
> 
> But I cannot see an application for this purpose. The outputs of the second
> A-161 would be a 1:1 copy of the first one unless you use different clocks
> or resets for the two units. But this requires some DIY as mentioned in one
> of my former messages.
> 
> Best wishes
> Dieter
>

Please look at my message from June 04, 2007 for details.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von Stu Grimshaw
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2007 15:47
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Re: A-155 - how to start on first step after
> reset?
>
>
> @ dieter: that's more or less what i'm looking at - bending the
> 160/161 to run from a
> subdivision of the input to the 160, i.e. one of the 160's
> outputs. if i can manage that,
> then i'd like to try to get two 161s running at different speeds.
>
> if i can reset them separately too - thanks for your post on this
> - then i can have them in
> different time signatures too.
>
> all of which would give me a pretty flexible sequencer combo for
> just 12TE, more so if i
> add a vcs to it.
>
> stu
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <hardware@...> wrote:
> >
> > > p.s. @ dieter: how about a bus connection on the 161 for a second 161
> > running from the same 160 ?
> >
> > That's easy. You simple need a 10 pin cable with 3 female
> connectors (one
> > for the A-160, one for A-161 #1 and one for A-161 #2).
> >
> > But I cannot see an application for this purpose. The outputs
> of the second
> > A-161 would be a 1:1 copy of the first one unless you use
> different clocks
> > or resets for the two units. But this requires some DIY as
> mentioned in one
> > of my former messages.
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Dieter
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi Stu

> @ dieter: that's more or less what i'm looking at - bending the 160/161 to run from a 
> subdivision of the input to the 160, i.e. one of the 160's outputs. if i can manage that, 
> then i'd like to try to get two 161s running at different speeds.
> 
> if i can reset them separately too - thanks for your post on this - then i can have them in 
> different time signatures too.
> 
> all of which would give me a pretty flexible sequencer combo for just 12TE, more so if i 
> add a vcs to it.
I don't have the schemoes of the A-161 here, but I had a look at it 
yesterday evening. The A-161 is based on a CD-4017 Chip
(eg. 
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/50846/FAIRCHILD/CD4017.html)

Clock in is pin-14 of the chip and reset in is pin-15

As far as I remember the ribbon cable from the A-160 to the A-161 feeds 
clock on wire-1, reset on wire-2, inverted clock on wire-3, and inverted 
reset on wire-4. The rest is ground and Supply voltage

You have to split this connection between the ribbon cable and the chip, 
insert a socket and connect the socket via a transistor/resistor combi 
like the following to the counter (should be done for both: clock and reset)

                       +12 V
                         |
                         R
                         R 10k
                         R
                        /
               100    |C
from socket---RRRR--B|   BC549
                      |E
                        \
                         +--------to-CD4017
                         |
                         R
                         R 1k
                         R
                         |
                      Ground


Assumingly you need an additional frontplate to have place for the 
additional sockets.

All written from memory, no guarantee that it will work. ;-)

Hi

little mistake in my schemoe: the resistor to 12V has to be 1k, the 
resistor to Ground has to be 10 k

Florian