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Approach to Curve Creation using UT3D on a 1290s ???

Approach to Curve Creation using UT3D on a 1290s ???

2007-01-03 by Jamie Creed

I've installed a UT3D inkset in a 1290s.

The inks I have used are:

Eboni
Cool toner
Light Cool toner
Carbon
Lt Carbon
Yellow Lab a axis toner

Now I have started playing around with the curve creation with QTR, 
any ideas how best to approach it would be appreciated.

My method thus far:

I've started by producing a carbon curve by using Eboni, Carbon and 
Lt Carbon and simply partioning them.

Secondly, I produced a neutralish curve, using the Carbon curve plus 
Cool toner and Lt Cool toner, by referring to the Lab a and b values 
following various iterations.

Thirdly, I produced a Cool curve using Eboni, Cool toner, Lt Cool 
toner plus a dash of Carbon and Lt Carbon (as I have seen in various 
UT7 curves.)

Finally, I had a go at producing a maxed out Selenium/Lab a curve, 
using a maximum amount of Lab a axis toner applied to my Neutralish 
curve, but it is not my intention to use this curve for printing out 
directly from, but rather to blend it with my neutralish curve in 
various amounts in order to get the desired effect.

If my approach is flawed or could be improved upon, I'm open to any 
suggestions, before I go any further with my tests.

By the way, I absolutely love what my neutral curve and Lab a axis 
toner produce when blended in QTR,

Jamie.

Re: Approach to Curve Creation using UT3D on a 1290s ???

2007-01-05 by Joost Horsten

Jamie,

> If my approach is flawed or could be improved upon, I'm open to any 
> suggestions, before I go any further with my tests.

Like you I've been playing around with the Ut3D inksets. A few weeks 
ago I uploaded some curves (for my 2100) in the file section. I don't 
claim their perfect (actually I'm redoing som of the work now to change 
them into 2880 dpi), but perhaps they can be a source of inspiration. 
Any comment is also appreciated.

> 
> By the way, I absolutely love what my neutral curve and Lab a axis 
> toner produce when blended in QTR,

In the end, that is the only thing that counts!

Joost

Re: Approach to Curve Creation using UT3D on a 1290s ???

2007-01-05 by Jamie Creed

Cheers Joost

I've looked at your curves and understand how you put them together, 
and I must say they were a great help to me, unfortunately I'm 
trying my 1290s first so I couldn't actually run off any prints, 
which was frustrating for me. I also have decided to go with the 
2880 dpi approach.

I did try something new last night, I produced a simple Lab a axis 
toner curve on its own, using the Load Curve option in the curve 
creation tool and set the figures of 0,0 and 100,100 with the 
default ink limit of 65% in my case ( this basically gave an ink 
seperation 21 step wedge) which I then linearised. I then produced a 
print using a blend of 50% of my neutral curve and 50% of the above 
Lab a toner curve (to just pull the neutral curve along the Lab a 
axis - just like Paul said it would) to produce the kind of toned 
print I've been hoping for since I closed down my darkroom, I'm very 
satisfied indeed.

All thanks of course to Paul Roark and the QTR team, take a bow 
gentlemen,

Jamie

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" <j.h.j.h@...> 
wrote:
>
> Jamie,
 
> > If my approach is flawed or could be improved upon, I'm open to 
any suggestions, before I go any further with my tests.
Like you I've been playing around with the Ut3D inksets. A few weeks 
ago I uploaded some curves (for my 2100) in the file section. I 
don't claim their perfect (actually I'm redoing som of the work now 
to change them into 2880 dpi), but perhaps they can be a source of 
inspiration. Any comment is also appreciated.
 
> > 
> > By the way, I absolutely love what my neutral curve and Lab a 
axis toner produced when blended in QTR,
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> In the end, that is the only thing that counts!
> 
> Joost
>

Re: Approach to Curve Creation using UT3D on a 1290s ???

2007-01-06 by Joost Horsten

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Creed" <jlcreed@...> wrote:

> I did try something new last night, I produced a simple Lab a axis 
> toner curve on its own, using the Load Curve option in the curve 
> creation tool and set the figures of 0,0 and 100,100 with the 
> default ink limit of 65% in my case ( this basically gave an ink 
> seperation 21 step wedge) which I then linearised. I then produced 
a 
> print using a blend of 50% of my neutral curve and 50% of the above 
> Lab a toner curve (to just pull the neutral curve along the Lab a 
> axis - just like Paul said it would) to produce the kind of toned 
> print I've been hoping for since I closed down my darkroom, I'm 
very 
> satisfied indeed.

Hi Jamie,

I don't completely get what your doing. This "simple Lab a axis toner 
curve", does that ONLY uses the Lab a toner? No K or LK inks? If so, 
the it has no black whatsoever, so any blend with this curve would 
have (heavily?) reduced Dmax. Is that the case or are you doing 
something differently?

Joost

Re: Approach to Curve Creation using UT3D on a 1290s ???

2007-01-07 by Jamie Creed

---------------------------------------------------------------------

> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Creed" <jlcreed@> wrote:
> 
I did try something new last night, I produced a simple Lab a axis
toner curve on its own, using the Load Curve option in the curve
creation tool and set the figures of 0,0 and 100,100 with the 
default ink limit of 65% in my case ( this basically gave an ink 
seperation 21 step wedge) which I then linearised. I then 
produced  a print using a blend of 50% of my neutral curve and 50% 
of the above Lab a toner curve (to just pull the neutral curve along 
the Lab a axis - just like Paul said it would) to produce the kind 
of toned print I've been hoping for since I closed down my darkroom, 
I'm very satisfied indeed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Hi Jamie,
> 
I don't completely get what your doing. This "simple Lab a axis 
toner curve", does that ONLY uses the Lab a toner? No K or LK inks? 
If so, the it has no black whatsoever, so any blend with this curve 
would have (heavily?) reduced Dmax. Is that the case or are you 
doing something differently?
> 
> Joost
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Joost

Firstly remember that I'm only playing around at the moment, and 
trying to find the extremes, eventually I will pull back a little, 
so at the moment I'm getting excited with what I'm seeing and would 
love for others to share any ideas they have got for using the UT3D
inkset. 

My "simple Lab a axis toner curve" at the moment does only contain
the Lab a axis toner, nothing else, and you are correct: the dmax is
reduced, but I can easily correct this, which I shall do by changing
the settings in the load curve window so that none of the Lab a ink
is laid down in say the 75% to 100% area.

The idea came from the way I decided to go about creating my basic
curves. Firstly, the Carbon curve at 1 extreme and the Cool curve at
the other extreme, so in my mind by using the blending option in QTR
I should theoretically move up and down the Lab B axis (give or take)
and then if I spend time producing the best standalone neutral curve
that I can for my setup, I should in theory, be able to move along 
the Lab a axis from a roughly neutral position to where ever I 
wanted to go (obviously image dependant) using the Lab a axis toner 
curve. Maybe my thinking is to simplistic and someone could jump in 
with a few ideas,

Jamie.

Re: Approach to Curve Creation using UT3D on a 1290s ???

2007-01-08 by benc_1972

> 
> The idea came from the way I decided to go about creating my basic
> curves. Firstly, the Carbon curve at 1 extreme and the Cool curve at
> the other extreme, so in my mind by using the blending option in QTR
> I should theoretically move up and down the Lab B axis (give or take)
> and then if I spend time producing the best standalone neutral curve
> that I can for my setup, I should in theory, be able to move along 
> the Lab a axis from a roughly neutral position to where ever I 
> wanted to go (obviously image dependant) using the Lab a axis toner 
> curve. Maybe my thinking is to simplistic and someone could jump in 
> with a few ideas,
> 
> Jamie.
>

Jamie and Joost,

I've followed this correpondence and thought now would be the time to 
jump in. Like Jamie, I'm playing with UT-3D inks in a 1290 and have 
recently started using QTR. Like both of you, I've felt that 
mixing 'standard' curves was the way to go for producing a full range 
of tones. I've implemented this approach - kind of - in photoshop, and 
am working on it for QTR also.

I've spent quite a bit of time in the last few weeks developing 
Photoshop curves for this inkset, and have generally been pleased with 
the results. Although it's quite fiddly and time-consuming (especially 
as I'm using a flatbed scanner to read the test strips) I've been able 
to produce pretty much exactly what I've wanted, at least within the 
accuracy of the scanner and the gamut of the inks. The approach I've 
taken has been a little different to what I understand the two of you 
have done, in that I've aimed for starting curves that sit on the a- 
and b- axes as far as possible. I found that printing 'fully cold' 
produced a noticable greenish cast in some tones, so my 'cold' curve 
has some a-axis toner in it. Similarly, my neutral curve is tweaked to 
come as close as I can get it to pure grey. 

It seems that the gamut of the inkset makes an on-axis curve harder to 
achieve in the warm tones, although I did manage to produce a very 
slightly warm (lab b around +2)curve with lab a around 0 in the 
midtones and highlights. (I was really more interested in getting the 
green out of the cool tones, as I quite like the natural carbon tone). 

I've had some success 'interpolating' between my neutral, cool, warm 
and carbon curves by blending in Photoshop. To do this I applied the 
curves to separate copies of the image, flattened each and overlaid 
them with opacity between 0 and 100%. This seems to produce broadly 
what I was after (I linearised my original curves 'the hard way') but 
I'm sure creating a new ICC for the blend would do a better job. 

I didn't follow this any further because the limitations of the Epson 
driver were becoming apparent, with horizontal banding evident in 
spite of my best alignment efforts and no way to print at 2880 on 
heavyweight matte paper. So I dived into QTR.

At this point, I'm just getting started, but I've had a look at 
Joost's curves and re-linearised the carbon one for my printer, just 
for fun. I then made a pure carbon curve from scratch, mostly as a 
learning exercise but also to form a view on the relative densities 
and best ink limits for the carbon inks for this printer. So far so 
good.

My intention is to follow the same approach as I used with Photoshop - 
I'm working on a neutral curve at present. I'm keen to get into the +a 
tones also. A thought I had looking at Joost's 'selenium' curve: the 
Eboni ink seems to have a natural +a / -b tone, with suggests to me 
that an approach with just Eboni, a-axis toner and one or both Carbons 
to bridge the density difference, could be worth trying. I'll let you 
know how I get on with it - unless someone else has been there first!

I hope at least some of that is interesting and/or useful. My PS 
curves are available to anyone who wants them, and I look forward to 
further developments.


All the best,
Ben Connor

Re: Approach to Curve Creation using UT3D on a 1290s ???

2007-01-11 by Jamie Creed

Ben

all very interesting, please keep us posted with your findings.
Personally I'm sticking with QTR and don't use the curve approach,
otherwise I would have been interested in looking at your work, thus
far.

I'm still playing around, and can't quite decide which way to pursue.
I hadn't noticed a green cast with the cool curve, but the spectro
does in fact say it is present. When I've tried to pull the Lab a
back towards zero, I can't say that I actually like the hue I'm 
getting, perhaps someone could advise the sort of magnitude of Lab a 
and b readings that are considered too much for example with a 
neutral curve and a cool curve. Like yourself I actually like the 
carbon only tone as it is.

Jamie

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "benc_1972" <ben@...> wrote:

I'm working on a neutral curve at present. I'm keen to get into 
the +a tones also. A thought I had looking at Joost's 'selenium' 
curve: the Eboni ink seems to have a natural +a / -b tone, with 
suggests to me that an approach with just Eboni, a-axis toner and 
one or both Carbons to bridge the density difference, could be worth 
trying. I'll let you know how I get on with it - unless someone else 
has been there first!

I hope at least some of that is interesting and/or useful. My PS 
curves are available to anyone who wants them, and I look forward 
to further developments.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> All the best,
> Ben Connor
>

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