Analogue-sequencer

> I always wanted one - its ability to interact with looping sequences
> reminded me of Dr T's KCS (Open Mode) - the trouble was it was way too
> expensive for me. But I keep watching the second hand ads..

The Cheetah MQ8 did a lot of similar things, but with a murderous UI.
Maybe I'll need to do some research/idea pinching on the Zyklus...

Colin f



________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.2

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Colin f wrote:

> The Cheetah MQ8 did a lot of similar things, but with a murderous UI.
> Maybe I'll need to do some research/idea pinching on the Zyklus...

personally, my idea of the ultimate sequencer is a 16-track
polyphonic-capable version of the P3, with a nice big PLED display and a
numeric keypad and/or a bunch of user-definable function buttons, heh...
oh yes, and more memory...

note that this does not make me unhappy with the P3... if the above
sequencer existed, i just wouldn't have to bother with my mc-909. :)

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:23:01 +0100, "Colin f" <colin@colinfraser.com>
wrote:

>The Cheetah MQ8 did a lot of similar things, but with a murderous UI.
>Maybe I'll need to do some research/idea pinching on the Zyklus...

I can talk extensively (yeah, like that's a surprise) on Dr T's KCS
and I know many of the ideas went into Zyklus. 

The concept of starting and stopping individual patterns is a good one
- patterns can loop, run once and can, in turn, trigger other
patterns. A pattern might be a set of controllers, notes,
randomisations for other events etc. and each loops according to its
own length. A pattern can contain a list of patterns to execute in
sequence, rather like a playlist....

Paul
---
Paul Nagle - SoftRoom Music - www.softroom.co.uk
          Bogus Focus Records - www.BogusFocus.com

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Paul Nagle wrote:

> The concept of starting and stopping individual patterns is a good one
> - patterns can loop, run once and can, in turn, trigger other
> patterns. A pattern might be a set of controllers, notes,
> randomisations for other events etc. and each loops according to its
> own length. A pattern can contain a list of patterns to execute in
> sequence, rather like a playlist....

to me, this is very live 4 like... well, with the exception of patterns
that play patterns. the ability to do this would be *extremely* cool in a
hardware sequencer... but this would require some serious graphical UI...

another feature that would be great in concert with this is some sort of
preview function, by which you could preview which pattern you are about
to drop in... and this could even be a small audio sample, 8-bit, 22kHz
mono or something... or more realistically, the device could have a sine
wave osc and some sort of envelope w/a special"preview output" jack... so
you could preview the pattern with a simple tone before you drop it in...

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:26:24 -0500 (CDT), blip <bleep@waste.org>
wrote:

>to me, this is very live 4 like... well, with the exception of patterns
>that play patterns. the ability to do this would be *extremely* cool in a
>hardware sequencer... but this would require some serious graphical UI...

Not necessarily - KCS had a UI that consisted of a blank Atari screen
until you started some sequences. Then the letter representing that
sequence appeared. KCS went downhill when it got a graphical UI and
slowed down measurably. I'm old fashioned though. 

>another feature that would be great in concert with this is some sort of
>preview function, by which you could preview which pattern you are about
>to drop in... and this could even be a small audio sample, 8-bit, 22kHz
>mono or something... or more realistically, the device could have a sine
>wave osc and some sort of envelope w/a special"preview output" jack... so
>you could preview the pattern with a simple tone before you drop it in...

Hehe, wimp! Drop it in and it it's wrong, fix it. With FTS nothing can
be too wrong and no member of the audience will ever know what you
intended anyway...  8-)

I'm so cavalier I should have a frilly shirt.

Paul
---
Paul Nagle - SoftRoom Music - www.softroom.co.uk
          Bogus Focus Records - www.BogusFocus.com

Well well...

here's one to stretch the old grey matter (well, it did mine). 

Create a pattern with a sequence in it on one track. Leave the rest
inactive. As a precaution to what's coming, make sure all parts have
that pattern active. 

Now set Aux A to Randomise Aux B
set Aux B to : Aux D=event n
set Aux C to Randomise Aux D
It really doesn't matter what you set Aux D to... .8-)

Now save and hit play. 

Anything can happen depending on the randomness factors. Might look if
I can vary the randomness using events from another track. Or mute the
event changes every now and again. 

Of course if you are unlucky enough to stumble across a mute for the
current track, you're finished. Otherwise, well, this thing has been
noodling away for the last 10 minutes and I'm kinda fascinated to see
what it will throw up. Certainly it sounds nothing like the original
sequence. And I only put in an event on step one in each case - I
could have chosen to vary the event for every step!

We're heading into wild new territories here gang. Which is nice...

Paul
---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music
Email: paul@softroom.co.uk www.softroom.co.uk
                           www.BogusFocus.com

> Well well...
> 
> here's one to stretch the old grey matter (well, it did mine). 
> 
> Create a pattern with a sequence in it on one track. Leave the rest
> inactive. As a precaution to what's coming, make sure all parts have
> that pattern active. 
> 
> Now set Aux A to Randomise Aux B
> set Aux B to : Aux D=event n
> set Aux C to Randomise Aux D
> It really doesn't matter what you set Aux D to... .8-)

Nagle, you're mental.
I knew it would be theoretically possible to do this, but I didn't like
to think about the end results. It was too complicated.

> We're heading into wild new territories here gang. Which is nice...

Need to hear it with 4 pairs of tracks, each pair driving a synth, with
one pattern generating notes and events, and the other randomly
generating patch modifications by CC.

8-)

Cheers,
Colin f

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Paul Nagle wrote:

> here's one to stretch the old grey matter (well, it did mine).

i think mine is broken... heh...

> Create a pattern with a sequence in it on one track. Leave the rest
> inactive. As a precaution to what's coming, make sure all parts have
> that pattern active.

i don't get the part connection here... aren't you just running this
single part with a single track/pattern active? what i do see is this
single step will change randomly upon each repetition... didn't colin's
mail say that the re-assignment only takes place on the step that the
event is active on? so in your case, only step 1 would be randomized? what
am i not seeing?

> what it will throw up. Certainly it sounds nothing like the original
> sequence. And I only put in an event on step one in each case - I
> could have chosen to vary the event for every step!

i have no idea how this happens... :)

> We're heading into wild new territories here gang. Which is nice...

yeah, and i'm totally lost... which is good. maybe when i'm able to get
auxes working on my P3 i will be less lost. :)

i'm *damn* glad i have a month off to learn this thing!

on an interface sidenote... the most efficient interfaces are always those
that are run from human memory, e.g., the combination of a unix command
prompt and a knowledgeable unix geek will always be the fastest way to get
around a computer... what i'm discovering with the P3 is that it is much
the same here. things may seem complicated (like unix), but it is all
easily memorizable (less like unix, heh) which makes you blaze through the
interfacey part without even thinking about things, which slows you
down...

so yes, good job on that part too, colin!

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:24:27 +0100, "Colin f" <colin@colinfraser.com>
wrote:

>Nagle, you're mental.
>I knew it would be theoretically possible to do this, but I didn't like
>to think about the end results. It was too complicated.

And each time you play it, it does something quite different.
Sometimes wildly so. And especially if you start to frig about with
the other tracks. And organise the parts so they do cool progressions
of transpose and scale and stuff...

>> We're heading into wild new territories here gang. Which is nice...
>Need to hear it with 4 pairs of tracks, each pair driving a synth, with
>one pattern generating notes and events, and the other randomly
>generating patch modifications by CC.

I like the cut of yer jib sir!

Paul
---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music
Email: paul@softroom.co.uk www.softroom.co.uk
                           www.BogusFocus.com

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:24:37 -0500 (CDT), blip <bleep@waste.org>
wrote:

>i don't get the part connection here... aren't you just running this
>single part with a single track/pattern active? what i do see is this
>single step will change randomly upon each repetition... didn't colin's
>mail say that the re-assignment only takes place on the step that the
>event is active on? so in your case, only step 1 would be randomized? what
>am i not seeing?

It randomises the event type. So it could be altering pattern length
on one pass, muting a track on another. It can mute itself of course
and at that point it means it's ready to finish. This critter has a
mind of its own... 8)

>i have no idea how this happens... :)

Great innit? 

>yeah, and i'm totally lost... which is good. maybe when i'm able to get
>auxes working on my P3 i will be less lost. :)

Come here. Bring drugs.

>i'm *damn* glad i have a month off to learn this thing!
>
>on an interface sidenote... the most efficient interfaces are always those
>that are run from human memory, e.g., the combination of a unix command
>prompt and a knowledgeable unix geek will always be the fastest way to get
>around a computer... what i'm discovering with the P3 is that it is much
>the same here. things may seem complicated (like unix), but it is all
>easily memorizable (less like unix, heh) which makes you blaze through the
>interfacey part without even thinking about things, which slows you
>down...

Despite its size and apparent inscrutibility, the interface can be
very fast indeed. 

>so yes, good job on that part too, colin!

We are not worthy... OK, I'm not... 8)

Paul
---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music
Email: paul@softroom.co.uk www.softroom.co.uk
                           www.BogusFocus.com

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Paul Nagle wrote:

> It randomises the event type. So it could be altering pattern length
> on one pass, muting a track on another. It can mute itself of course
> and at that point it means it's ready to finish. This critter has a
> mind of its own... 8)

sooo... it somehow randomizes these values for aux d for all steps in the
pattern, having different effects (events) for each repetition of the
pattern? i still don't see this business about making sure the track is
unmuted in other parts... will it actually switch parts too???

i guess what i'm asking should go to colin: what things can "events" be?

> >yeah, and i'm totally lost... which is good. maybe when i'm able to get
> >auxes working on my P3 i will be less lost. :)
>
> Come here. Bring drugs.

Send airfare. :)

> We are not worthy... OK, I'm not... 8)

no kidding we're not...

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 09:57:32PM +0100, Paul Nagle wrote:

> Create a pattern with a sequence in it on one track. Leave the rest
> inactive. As a precaution to what's coming, make sure all parts have
> that pattern active. 
> 
> Now set Aux A to Randomise Aux B
> set Aux B to : Aux D=event n
> set Aux C to Randomise Aux D
> It really doesn't matter what you set Aux D to... .8-)
> 
> Now save and hit play. 

this reminds me of the latticework of bars and pipes i would create in sequitur.
aleatoric sequencing is Awesome, y'all.



-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

> i guess what i'm asking should go to colin: what things can 
> "events" be?

There's a list of events in the manual, but it's not quite up to date.
I've been too busy with ready-builts to get it done...

Cheers,
Colin f

> this reminds me of the latticework of bars and pipes i would 
> create in sequitur.
> aleatoric sequencing is Awesome, y'all.

I'm still debating whether to try it or not.
If I hear something really cool, it may be impossible to recover.

Colin f

On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 10:52:06PM +0100, Colin f wrote:

> I'm still debating whether to try it or not.
> If I hear something really cool, it may be impossible to recover.

the problem is that it spoils you forever.  every DAW i used after sequitur was
anti-climactic.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Colin f wrote:

> There's a list of events in the manual, but it's not quite up to date.
> I've been too busy with ready-builts to get it done...

oh my god... all those are events... the degree of paul's insanity is
beginning to unfurl in my rusty mind...

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

blip (03:01 PM 8/17/2004) wrote:

 >On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Colin f wrote:
 >
 >> There's a list of events in the manual, but it's not quite up to date.
 >> I've been too busy with ready-builts to get it done...
 >
 >oh my god... all those are events... the degree of paul's insanity is
 >beginning to unfurl in my rusty mind...

The real scare will come from him checking his ummm, "stash", to find out 
if he has any "creative enhancers" left. :)

Mark

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:57:32 +0100, I wrote:

>here's one to stretch the old grey matter (well, it did mine). 
>
>Create a pattern with a sequence in it on one track. Leave the rest
>inactive. As a precaution to what's coming, make sure all parts have
>that pattern active. 
>
>Now set Aux A to Randomise Aux B
>set Aux B to : Aux D=event n
>set Aux C to Randomise Aux D
>It really doesn't matter what you set Aux D to... .8-)
>
>Now save and hit play. 

Which is all very well if you're into chaos. 

However, before anyone loses heart, here's an alternative that is
actually controllable. 

Just one variation on your existing pattern - make Aux A get Aux B
from a DIFFERENT track. Aha, eh?

Now in that different track, set up Aux B so that it has 16 precisely
worked-out numbers. The event type doesn't matter, just the values.
Pick values that correspond to the Aux events you want to choose from.
So I picked events 0,7,25,26.... and so on. You have to work them out
from the event list but essentially I wanted to exclude those that
mute tracks or select parts. Now set this pattern on the different
track to run in a random direction and save it. The pattern doesn't
even need to be unmuted, your original pattern will grab the data
anyway. Heck, make a playlist if 16 randomly chosen events isn't
enough. Remember that each value for each event is assigned from a
random number so there's still lots of freakiness happening...

Does that make sense? Give it a try.... 8)

Paul
---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music
Email: paul@softroom.co.uk www.softroom.co.uk
                           www.BogusFocus.com

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Paul Nagle wrote:

> However, before anyone loses heart, here's an alternative that is
> actually controllable.

so how about some recordings of this? both the chaotic and controllable
versions...? :)

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:16:10 -0500 (CDT), blip <bleep@waste.org>
wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Paul Nagle wrote:
>
>> However, before anyone loses heart, here's an alternative that is
>> actually controllable.
>
>so how about some recordings of this? both the chaotic and controllable
>versions...? :)
>

OK - although it's pretty easy to setup and try. Each time I record it
I kinda drift off thinking "now what will it do?" several hours later
I'm still going "wooooooooo"...

Paul

---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music
Email: paul@softroom.co.uk www.softroom.co.uk
                           www.BogusFocus.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Paul Nagle wrote:

> OK - although it's pretty easy to setup and try. Each time I record it
> I kinda drift off thinking "now what will it do?" several hours later
> I'm still going "wooooooooo"...

yeah... i'd try it on my P3, but i can't access aux events at the moment.
also, there's a whole herd of ppl on this list who aren't lucky enough to
have a P3 at all, regardless of operational condition.

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:00:48 -0500 (CDT), blip <bleep@waste.org>
wrote:

>yeah... i'd try it on my P3, but i can't access aux events at the moment.

Bummer

>also, there's a whole herd of ppl on this list who aren't lucky enough to
>have a P3 at all, regardless of operational condition.

Well, I hope they get something from the chaos then <g>
Will record some of it later.....

Paul
---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music
Email: paul@softroom.co.uk www.softroom.co.uk
                           www.BogusFocus.com

> yeah... i'd try it on my P3, but i can't access aux events at 
> the moment.

Still no go on the function switch board then ?
Have you got any kind of continuity tester ?
It'll possibly be easier to work out why the switches aren't working
than the LEDs.

Cheers,
Colin f

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Colin f wrote:

> Still no go on the function switch board then ?
> Have you got any kind of continuity tester ?
> It'll possibly be easier to work out why the switches aren't working
> than the LEDs.

i haven't had a chance to mess with it... the wife has been home during
the evening this week. :) i don't have a continuity tester, but i'll see
if i can scare one up... i did order new leds and transistors from mouser,
just in case one of those is fried.

when i'm looking down the function swithc board with S1 close to me and S2
away, i should see more metal inside the LEDs on the right hand side,
correct? the board isn't near me at the moment, but this would mean (i
think) that the cathode is in fact in the square pad which is where it
should be, correct? if that's the case, then the problem has to be
internal to the cable or, more likely, the plug itself. i have zero
problems with the step keys or the keypad...

and speaking of switches, i was wondering if it were possible for you to
send me a couple of those multimec switches & caps. the caps for the tact
switches i have are, of course, too big, and the switches are too low to
the board anyway. i can paypal you $$$ (wel, LLL :) as soon as you let me
know if you can do this and what it would cost. (oh yes... it seems
impossible to get these switches & caps in the us... all the caps are too
wide and short)

thanks!
fred.

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

> i haven't had a chance to mess with it... the wife has been 
> home during
> the evening this week. :)

I'm familiar with that. ;-)

> when i'm looking down the function swithc board with S1 close 
> to me and S2
> away, i should see more metal inside the LEDs on the right hand side,
> correct? the board isn't near me at the moment, but this would mean (i
> think) that the cathode is in fact in the square pad which is where it
> should be, correct? if that's the case, then the problem has to be
> internal to the cable or, more likely, the plug itself. i have zero
> problems with the step keys or the keypad...

The cathodes should be in the circular pads.
The anodes, which have the longer legs, go in the square pads.
Maybe that's all it is...

Cheers,
Colin f

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Colin f wrote:

> The cathodes should be in the circular pads.
> The anodes, which have the longer legs, go in the square pads.
> Maybe that's all it is...

it's hard to remember what's what when the legs are snipped. i'm pretty
sure i put the long legs in the square pads... i also at one time flipped
the GATE led around, to no avail. it still did not light up in pattern
edit mode...

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:16:10 -0500 (CDT), blip <bleep@waste.org>
wrote:

>so how about some recordings of this? both the chaotic and controllable
>versions...? :)

Did some.
Unfortunately I'm out of webspace at the moment. The files together
are just over 5Mb if anyone wants me to email em somewhere?

Paul
---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music
Email: paul@softroom.co.uk www.softroom.co.uk
                           www.BogusFocus.com

Paul Nagle (12:24 PM 8/19/2004) wrote:

 >Unfortunately I'm out of webspace at the moment. The files together
 >are just over 5Mb if anyone wants me to email em somewhere?

Send 'em on if you wanna!


Mark

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Paul Nagle wrote:

> Did some.
> Unfortunately I'm out of webspace at the moment. The files together
> are just over 5Mb if anyone wants me to email em somewhere?

you can send them to this address and i can put them up... thanks paul!

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:43:40 -0700, Mark Pulver <mark@midiwall.com>
wrote:

>Send 'em on if you wanna!

Niall should have 'em now, ta dude

Paul
---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music
Email: paul@softroom.co.uk www.softroom.co.uk
                           www.BogusFocus.com

THanks Niall!!


okay, they're posted here:

http://syncretism.net/snd/p3/pnagle

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Readmething
Further to previous tippy doodad

Files are: 

Chaos1: 
The P3 can choose the event from a complete random list PLUS it
chooses the value for the event. This is two single automatic
performances - you'll hear it stop (itself) then I start it again. 

The first part has had one edit - I pruned a section that was too
repetitive even for me. Other than that the P3 is doing all the
changes - part switching, weird stuff etc. without being touched.
There are lots of other tracks being started so this is quite complex
plus the parts have transposes and FTS settings of their own -
basically these and many of the patterns are just what happened to be
in that bank but strung together by the P3.

The second part starts with a bouncy seq that soon changes
drastically. The P3 then gets into the mood once more - note that this
is exactly the same starting point as the first part - and that only
one of the tracks has been prepared here. The rest are not especially
programmed to do anything clever (so they don't).

One note you may find useful: always put your random event on step
one. If not, you may inadvertanly  shorten the pattern and  then get
stuck with no variation because you can never reach the step again. 

Chaos2:  
This is just a single track playing and varying. It only does one
variation at once and keep switching back to something vaguely
recognisable. The P3 has been told to pick from 16 events that I have
selected but told it to select any of them at random and with a random
amount. For more than 16 specifically chosen events, use a playlist
for your track where you are grabbing the values from.

Think how cool this might be if I made a dead good starter sequence
and then repeated the process on several other tracks? Hmm, what's the
quickest way to duplicate this on, say, six other tracks? Coliiiiin?
Then give each its own sequence notes and gates but take the rnd
events from a common source track so that each pattern changes in the
same way - but will be different cos of the different note etc. values
in the sequence.... oooooh,

THen I could add some more grab events to create more than 1 change
per patterm. So they still originate in the same place but have more
variations and not ones that always line up. Or....masking, damn want
more aux events, hey wait, (it goes on)

Hope it helps and doesn't drive you too mad...

Paul

P.S. .It could qualify for one of the Stoned series as I am, I
foncess, pleasantly sozzled.

---
Paul Nagle / Soft Room Music
Email: paul@softroom.co.uk www.softroom.co.uk
                           www.BogusFocus.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Paul Nagle wrote:

> http://syncretism.net/snd/p3/pnagle

lovely... my favorite part is in chaos 2 where the main melody drops out
and is quick replaced by a bright tinkle, only to have the melody come
right in again... the P3 goes all DJ, heh!

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

> okay, they're posted here:
> 
> http://syncretism.net/snd/p3/pnagle
> 

Wow. I must have been possessed by the spirit of Raymond Scott.
I'll need to try adding more functionality like this, only deliberately.
;-)

Cheers,
Colin f