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What Am I doing wrong?

What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-19 by kjrslr@...

Some quick background. Windows 64. Spyder3Print 4.2.2. Epson 4800 w/custon inkset from Cone. I use the DataColor Spectrocolormeter 1005. The last profile I made was Oct 2011 and I still use the profile today with Canson Platine Photo Rag-great consistant output from this profile. I generally print through Lightroom.

Recently I have been wanting to create a color profile for Canson Baryta Photographique (which I use for B&W w/Piezography in a seperate printer). Last month, I made sure I had a good nozzle check & printed some images(on the Platine) for a club meeting. No problems. So I then opened up S3P and steped through the process of making the targets(on the Canson Baryta) to profile using the 729 EZ w/extended greys (9 letter size sheets). I set the sheets aside for a month(in a drawer) out of sunlight. Last night I opened up S3P and stepped through the process to read the targets to create a profile. When it came to making the print(from the image in S3P) to evaluate the image looked as it should. I stepped through the printer set up dialog settings w/No Color Adjustment, Photo Luster 260, etc but when I hit the print button, the image looked like there was a red gel over everything. I made a print and it printed that way. It had a title in the lower left coner: SPTemp730213.icm, Relative Colormetric (with the date) 2/18/2015, 4:46PM-but it was printed on the 17th.

I thought I did something wrong and went back through the help file but didn't find anything. After I got home from work tonight, I re read the targets, gave it a new name w/todays(18FEB15) date and continued on to make another print of the S3P image. Same thing as before. When I chose the target (dated 18FEB15) to print, stepped through the printer set up process and once again the image changed from the normal look to one that was the same as last night. Red. I then went through the process of making adjustments and got the red from the image and named what I thought would be a profile. I then printed it out. The print came out as before, with a red tinge and with none of the corrections I had made Oddly,the title for the profile that I named was not printed but the EXACT same title in the lower left corner (including the date,correct this time)as from the first print I made the night before. I feel like it's double profiling, but how can that be? Neither PS or LR was running.and I've never had this kind of a problem before.

What am I doing wrong?

Re: What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-19 by tlbtlb@...

I'm confused--not an uncommon occurrence,,,'-}}


I'm guessing that "Windows 64" is Windows 7/64bit? 

Are you using LIghtroom or Photoshop to print--it's not clear from your post?



>>but when I hit the print button, the image looked like there was a red gel over everything

Is this in the print preview? I'm guessing it is and if so, I NEVER pay attention to what my image looks like in print preview as it's never accurate--at least for my Epson 4000.

Have you actually printed the image and if so, does it print with the red cast?

Have you gone to c:\windows\system32\spool\drivers\color and looked for your profiles? I'd suggest removing the one you think is problematic leaving your most currently created profile in place then testing again.


Hope that helps...

Terrie

Re: What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-19 by kjrslr@...

Yes, Windows 7/64 bit

I did not print the image from PS or LR. It was printed through S3P.

When I hit the print button, thetest image(it's the test image with 4 quadrants w/4 smaller images in each quadrant in S3P) looked like there was a red gel over the entire image. When I printed it, the print looked just like it did on the screen-red.

I only created the one profile and just now checking, it was in the folder you mention.

Re: What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-20 by Paolo Cavestro

Hi, I guess you are not doing wrong.
You are simply facing an unresolved DataColor problem.
I experienced exactly the same problem some years ago. At that time I asked for DataColor support -frankly specking very difficult and frustrating to get it- and after some trials I decided to go for a different brand instrument, this to save time and money.
Hope my experience can help you.
Regards.
pacabba
PS In case of doubts check Google for people with the same problem. You will find a lot of information

Re: [datacolor_group] What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-20 by David Miller

On Feb 20, 2015, at 7:18 AM, Paolo Cavestro belpicio60@... [datacolor_group] <datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> 
> Hi, I guess you are not doing wrong.
> You are simply facing an unresolved DataColor problem.
> I experienced exactly the same problem some years ago. At that time I asked for DataColor support -frankly specking very difficult and frustrating to get it- and after some trials I decided to go for a different brand instrument, this to save time and money.
> Hope my experience can help you.
> Regards.
> pacabba
> PS In case of doubts check Google for people with the same problem. You will find a lot of information
> 
> 

No, he isn't experiencing an "unresolved DataColor problem." He's doing
something wrong.

I'll go back through his original question and try to get to the bottom of it "here"
on the group, or at least get the information I need to diagnose it.

There's nothing in his message about asking for any technical support
from Datacolor through proper channels, aka, opening a support ticket. :-)

As far as your personal experience in asking for help from Datacolor Support,
can you let me know what the support ticket # was, so I can look it up in the
system and see exactly what happened?

David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

Re: [datacolor_group] What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-20 by David Miller

On Feb 18, 2015, at 9:34 PM, kjrslr@... [datacolor_group] <datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> 
>  Some quick background. Windows 64. Spyder3Print 4.2.2. Epson 4800 w/custon inkset from Cone. I use the DataColor Spectrocolormeter 1005. The last profile I made was Oct 2011 and I still use the profile today with Canson Platine Photo Rag-great consistant output from this profile. I generally print through Lightroom.
> 
> Recently I have been wanting to create a color profile for Canson Baryta Photographique (which I use for B&W w/Piezography in a seperate printer). Last month, I made sure I had a good nozzle check & printed some images(on the Platine) for a club meeting. No problems. So I then opened up S3P and steped through the process of making the targets(on the Canson Baryta) to profile using the 729 EZ w/extended greys (9 letter size sheets). I set the sheets aside for a month(in a drawer) out of sunlight. Last night I opened up S3P and stepped through the process to read the targets to create a profile. When it came to making the print(from the image in S3P) to evaluate the image looked as it should. I stepped through the printer set up dialog settings w/No Color Adjustment, Photo Luster 260, etc  but when I hit the print button, the image looked like there was a red gel over everything. I made a print and it printed that way. It had a title in the lower left coner: SPTemp730213.icm, Relative Colormetric (with the date) 2/18/2015, 4:46PM-but it was printed on the 17th.

The most likely mistake you've made is: you printed the target sheets for this new profile incorrectly.

From what you're saying:

1. In the past, you printed target sheets back in 2011 (correctly, we'll assume), measured, built a profile,
and that profile worked correctly. That's fine. It has nothing to do with your second paragraph, "Recently".

2a. Now on to "Recently". You did a nozzle check (good!), then printed the target sheets (but may have
printed them -incorrectly-, with color management enabled, and this is your logic flaw) and put them
in a drawer for a month.

2b. A month later, you took those sheets out of the drawer, measured and built a profile, which doesn't
print correctly (reddish). What you've missed is the possibility (probability!) that those target sheets weren't
printed correctly. It doesn't matter whether you protected them from sunlight or not. If you printed them
wrong a month ago (color managed), then you'll never be able to build a good profile from them and
every print you'd make from using them for a profile will be flawed.

> 
> I thought I did something wrong and went back through the help file but didn't find anything. After I got home from work tonight, I re read the targets, gave it a new name w/todays(18FEB15) date and continued on to make another print of the S3P image. Same thing as before.

See above. It doesn't matter if you remeasure target sheets that were printed incorrectly. If the target
prints are wrong, you will NEVER BE ABLE TO MAKE A GOOD PROFILE FROM THEM no matter how many
times you measure. :-)

> When I chose the target (dated 18FEB15) to print, stepped through the printer set up process and once again the image changed from the normal look to one that was the same as last night. Red.

Same comments as above.

> I then went through the process of making adjustments and got the red from the image and named what I thought would be a profile. I then printed it out. The print came out as before, with a red tinge and with none of the corrections I had made

Same comments as above. The most likely problem is, you're continually trying to build a profile
from a CALIBRATED target print, which is wrong. It will never work.

Assuming I'm right about this, it is not, as Paolo Cavestro insists in a later response here, an
"unresolved DataColor problem". It would be from printing the target incorrectly. This same
situation exists in every printer profiling product on the market that has ever existed from
any company. If you print the target wrong, profiling from the incorrect target print will never
work properly.

> Oddly,the title for the profile that I named was not printed but the EXACT same title in the lower left corner (including the date,correct this time)as from the first print I made the night before. I feel like it's double profiling, but how can that be? Neither PS or LR was running.and I've never had this kind of a problem before. 

You're mixing up 2 things in the profiling process: the MEASUREMENT file (which is the only
thing that SpyderPRINT stores and works with) and the PROFILE that you eventually build
from the measurements (which is an exported-only file and which is what shows up in the
LR and Photoshop popups). When you run SpyderPRINT again and go to its screen of
"existing measurement files" and select one: you're reloading the MEASUREMENTS you had
made for that target originally. You're not selecting or using any profile that you may have
actually built from them, with or without additional adjustments from the Advanced screen.
If you select a measurement file in SpyderPRINT, then step through to the softproof screen
(prior to actually saving a profile) and then print test images from there, you'll simply be
using an on-the-fly (stored in memory) temporary profile that's built from the loaded
measurements plus any tweaks you've made to the "recipe" if you go into the Advanced
editing screen. You won't be using any actual ICC printer profile that you may have made
previously in earlier sessions of using SpyderPRINT.

When you print the test images from SpyderPRINT that way, it's no surprise that you would
still be getting the red cast (just as you were getting, when using the profile you built from
these and then printing from LR or PS), because (see all of the above comments): if the
target sheets you've been using as the basis for all of this are printed incorrectly, nothing
is going to work properly, and you're consistently incorrect printing behavior (red) is
what I'd expect.

*****

So, let's get to the bottom of all of this. I'd like you to do the following and email me
a couple of things to look at so I can confirm my suspicions. I want you to send me
your MEASUREMENT FILES (not any actual ICC profiles) from the (a) 2011, and (b) "Recent".

Please follow my instructions below exactly and send me 2 measurement files (with
.XML extensions). Don't send me ICC profiles. :-)

1. Run SpyderPRINT

2. Use the File:Open Data command. That will open the folder that contains your
SpyderPRINT measurement files. They're all small text files with .xml extensions.

3a. Find the measurement file you created back in 2011, that you'd been using to
print successfully, and attach it to your email to me.

3b. Find your "Recent" measurement file, that one from this latest set of target prints
that's not working correctly, and also attach it to your email to me.

4. Send the email to me at dmiller@datacolor.com

5. After I've looked at these (should be "today", Friday 2.20.15, if you get them to me
within the next few hours), I'll report back my findings.

6. Assuming I'm right, the simple answer to this is going to be: you'll need to start
over, reprint the sheets (with color management disabled), remeasure, and build another
profile. And the way to prevent this from happening again will be simple: when you're
building printer profile, it's just as critically important to print with the correct driver
settings (no color management) as with doing a nozzle check; and you need to be
able to visually tell whether a target print was done "correctly", or not. A correctly
printed target (no color management) is going to be dark, "heavy", saturated, probably
color cast, particularly when using 3rd party inks. An INCORRECTLY printed target
(color managed) is going to look "nice", "pretty", lighter, with visibly adjusted colors
near the primaries. With the EZ targets (which you're using), on the first sheet, the
first row of patches are the primaries. The blue patch should be a fully inked blue,
not color managed, and it should be very dark and saturated. That's the easiest
one to use when looking for trouble. If the target print is color managed (calibrated)
and therefore wrong, the blue patch will be lighter, prettier, and not fully inked.


David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

Re: [datacolor_group] What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-20 by David Miller

On Feb 20, 2015, at 7:18 AM, Paolo Cavestro belpicio60@... [datacolor_group] <datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> 
> Hi, I guess you are not doing wrong.
> You are simply facing an unresolved DataColor problem.
> I experienced exactly the same problem some years ago. At that time I asked for DataColor support -frankly specking very difficult and frustrating to get it- and after some trials I decided to go for a different brand instrument, this to save time and money.
> Hope my experience can help you.
> Regards.
> pacabba
> PS In case of doubts check Google for people with the same problem. You will find a lot of information
> 

Paolo,

I looked back through my emails, and we went back on forth on this in a lot of detail
back in March and April of 2013, nearly 2 years ago.

You were printing your targets correctly; but you had some big problems with your
measurements. The gamut shape of the profile you were building from
the measurements was "crunched" in one region, even though the overall size
of the gamut was reasonable.

As far as I can see, we were able to resolve this and the only question that you
had - was your SpyderPRINT spectro working correctly - appeared to be "yes".
I asked you to measure the white calibration tile, and the measurement values
you sent back to me for it were correct.

I don't have any further follow-up emails on this from 2 years ago.

Best regards,

David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

Re: [datacolor_group] What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-20 by kjrslr@...

I did send a support ticket to Datacolor last night. I got this back this morning from DataColor DCS Suport.

To check your SpyderPrint-profile and measurements please send us the corresponding xml file which was created with your software and sensor.

Simply start the SpyderPrint software and press the CTRL + 1 (Win) or cmd + 1 (Mac) key on your keyboard.
This will open the appropriate folder automatically.

Feel free and don't hesitate to contact us again, in case you have further questions.

Best regards,


Boris Bergmann
Technical Support Specialist
Datacolor AG
Loorenstr. 9
8305 Dietlikon / Zurich
Switzerland

I will be sending this momentarily-I just got home!

Re: [datacolor_group] What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-20 by David Miller

On Feb 20, 2015, at 5:39 PM, kjrslr@... [datacolor_group] <datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> 
> I did send a support ticket to Datacolor last night. I got this back this morning from DataColor DCS Suport.
> 
> To check your SpyderPrint-profile and measurements please send us the corresponding xml file which was created with your software and sensor.
> 
> Simply start the SpyderPrint software and press the CTRL + 1 (Win) or cmd + 1 (Mac) key on your keyboard.
> This will open the appropriate folder automatically.
> 
> 

That's fine - that's just the keyboard equivalent of "File:Open Data" :-)

You should send it to them, but I'll still look at the file myself if you'd also like
to send it to me.

Best regards,

David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

Re: [datacolor_group] What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-20 by kjrslr@...

David, Thank you for a logical repliy. To be honest, when I made the targets, I don't recall if I turned of color management in the epson driver. I probably didn't and I think that right there is the problem. At my age I get to play the "senior moment card'. 8^} As I replied in another post to you, I did open a tickect and will be sending the file in a few minutes. As far as putting the targets in a drawer for a month was because I wanted to give them a day to make sure they were completly dry, and just wasn't able to get back to them as soon as I wanted to. Yes, I do know that I was making a measurement file(reading the targets) and when I was stepping through the process, this is what I selected to print the test image from within S3P. I dated the target so I know which to select. I'm trying to sent the files, but when I click on the partial email addy from above, outlook asks for a complete address so I filled in datacolor.com. I hope you get it. In the mean time, I will get paper ready for another test. This may sound like a dumb question, but does it matter if the spyder is plugged in or not while making the the test print-after reading the measurement targets? I would think it would have no bearing, but I don't know so I asked the question.

Re: What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-21 by tlbtlb@...

kjrslr...

When reading the list directly at Yahoo, any email address in the body of a post is "edited"/modified so that the complete address is not displayed--the digest version of the list (which I also receive)  does display a full email address.

Sooo...just in case, David actually has a life outside of both Datacolor and the list and might not see your post until Monday, I've taken the liberty of expanding David's email address so it it readable on the list--remove the spaces around the "@" and the period--so you can send him your files:

 dmiller @ datacolor . com


Hope that proves useful and apologies to David if I overstepped the bounds...

Terrie

Re: [datacolor_group] What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-21 by David Miller

On Feb 21, 2015, at 5:08 PM, tlbtlb@... [datacolor_group] <datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> kjrslr...
> 
> When reading the list directly at Yahoo, any email address in the body of a post is "edited"/modified so that the complete address is not displayed--the digest version of the list (which I also receive) does display a full email address.
> 
> Sooo...just in case, David actually has a life outside of both Datacolor and the list and might not see your post until Monday, I've taken the liberty of expanding David's email address so it it readable on the list--remove the spaces around the "@" and the period--so you can send him your files:
> 
> dmiller @ datacolor . com
> 
> Hope that proves useful and apologies to David if I overstepped the bounds...
> 
> Terrie
> 
> 

No worries, Terrie. :-) I saw his other post on the list, but we've been
going back and forth through email over it.

David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

Re: What Am I doing wrong?

2015-02-22 by tlbtlb@...

>>No worries, Terrie. :-) I saw his other post on the list, but we've been going back and forth through email over it.

Oh good! '-}}

Do let us know the resolution to the issue as I'm most curious...


Terrie

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