Elektron Musical Instruments

Hi,
I just started recording a few midi tracks on cubase se with my 
machinedrum and i noticed a couple of limitations one can experience 
using the machinedrum this way. The first bad news was that i 
couldn't record any of the parameter locks. The other thing was that 
the reverb was getting hammered . So now i'm wondering whether i'm 
doing something wrong, or is this really how the machine drum should 
react to a synched sequencer setup?  any help me on this would be 
great!

cheers,
samuel

>
> Hi,
> I just started recording a few midi tracks on cubase se with my
> machinedrum and i noticed a couple of limitations one can experience
> using the machinedrum this way. The first bad news was that i
> couldn't record any of the parameter locks. The other thing was that
> the reverb was getting hammered . So now i'm wondering whether i'm
> doing something wrong, or is this really how the machine drum should
> react to a synched sequencer setup?  any help me on this would be
> great!
>

Yes, locks can't be recorded via midi on a sequencer.

I suggest you to sync the MD to your computer, use the MD sequencer and 
just record audio instead of midi.
where's the point in the recording notes from the MD?
It's only useful if you record cc's imho.

Hi,

New to this forum so hello. I'm thinking of getting a machinedrum but 
was wondering about MIDI sync issues with Cubase. I run Cubase SL at 
the moment with an Audiophile 2496 soundcard. Does anyone know if 
there are issues to do with the machinedrum being a few samples behind 
and not completely in sync with everything else in Cubase. If so, are 
there any fixes or workarounds?

Cheers,

Dave.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 07:28:33PM -0000, dvking_uk wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> New to this forum so hello. I'm thinking of getting a machinedrum but 
> was wondering about MIDI sync issues with Cubase. I run Cubase SL at 
> the moment with an Audiophile 2496 soundcard. Does anyone know if 
> there are issues to do with the machinedrum being a few samples behind 
> and not completely in sync with everything else in Cubase. If so, are 
> there any fixes or workarounds?

define everything else - other synths?  audio files?
softsynths?  if the latency comes in relation to softsynths
and such, then you need to make cubase compensate for the
delay introduced by your soundcard, which someone on a
cubase mailing list would be well-equipped to explain.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, niall munnelly <aleph@a...> 
wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 07:28:33PM -0000, dvking_uk wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > New to this forum so hello. I'm thinking of getting a 
machinedrum but 
> > was wondering about MIDI sync issues with Cubase. I run Cubase 
SL at 
> > the moment with an Audiophile 2496 soundcard. Does anyone know 
if 
> > there are issues to do with the machinedrum being a few samples 
behind 
> > and not completely in sync with everything else in Cubase. If 
so, are 
> > there any fixes or workarounds?
> 
> define everything else - other synths?  audio files?
> softsynths?  if the latency comes in relation to softsynths
> and such, then you need to make cubase compensate for the
> delay introduced by your soundcard, which someone on a
> cubase mailing list would be well-equipped to explain.
> 
> -- 
> yours,
> niall.
> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .           
      .
> aleph null.                             a simple insinuation 
around silence.
> http://syncretism.net
> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

Thanks for the quick reply. I have a couple of synths (Microwave XT 
and Jomox Mbase) and a few softsynths like Absynth that I run in 
Cubase SL. Everything records and plays back in sync fine, but I've 
heard there are issues with the Machinedrum being up to 300 samples 
in front or behind on recordings and this is down to Cubase not 
having external MIDI clock capabilities. The synths I have receive 
sequenced MIDI data from Cubase into their MIDI in ports and the 
sound fed is out of the audio outs back into the soundcard on the 
PC. This works fine at the moment but I was wondering if there would 
be any issues if I set the Machinedrum up in the same way. Would 
this work? Would I be able to get the best out of the Machinedrum in 
this way?

Cheers,

Dave.

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dvking_uk" <dvking_uk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> New to this forum so hello. I'm thinking of getting a machinedrum 
but 
> was wondering about MIDI sync issues with Cubase. I run Cubase SL at 
> the moment with an Audiophile 2496 soundcard. Does anyone know if 
> there are issues to do with the machinedrum being a few samples 
behind 
> and not completely in sync with everything else in Cubase. If so, 
are 
> there any fixes or workarounds?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dave.

i would suggest to buy the MD UW. i recieved mine upgraded yesterday 
and spent last nite loading some of my own samples and tweaking 
around. i have used many others but this machine is lightyears ahead 
of any other drummachine. the interface is superb, the 12bit sound is 
punchy and you can so easily mangle the sounds into another dimension 
while still retaining the musicality. it sounds great. i dont know 
about cubase sync but the MD clock is rock solid maybe theres 
something wrong with cubase ;) i sequence many synths and a sampler 
with the MD UW alone with excellent results. i have used cubase in the 
past but i will NEVER do that again as long as the MD UW is around. 
this machine changes your approach to sequencing and it is far 
superior. to anyone considering purchasing a MD UW i STRONGLY 
reccomend it. to ELEKTRON development team thanks for creating the 
worlds tuffest drummachine. (MPC KILLER!!!)
gab

Computers don't do a good job of keeping serial I/O data (Midi)
behaving as it should. Being serial - midi has it's limitations - but
if these limitations are understood and the hardware and software is
capable of sheduling midi correctly then it's timing performance is
remarkably good. Midi is often slated as being sloppy. The slop is not
Midi itself but the combination of poor hardware desig and badly
written software. The MD on the other hand has blisteringly good
internal timing and highly accurate midi clock output. Unfortunately,
your Cubase/PC rig will always run a very poor second regardless of
what you do to it. Try not to measure new equipment against what you
have been using up until now. Your concern that the MD is potentially
flawed referenced against your PC rig is in reality the other way
around - it's just a difficult reality check to swallow. It is the
nature of computers and sequencing software. You would be better off
with the hardware stability of the MD and ditch Cubase for sequencing
altogether. It's a different way of working but one that yeilds much
better results. Use the PC as an audio recorder/editor only and leave
sequencing to hardware that does the job properly. All the best.

> New to this forum so hello. I'm thinking of getting a machinedrum but 
> was wondering about MIDI sync issues with Cubase. I run Cubase SL at 
> the moment with an Audiophile 2496 soundcard. Does anyone know if 
> there are issues to do with the machinedrum being a few samples behind 
> and not completely in sync with everything else in Cubase. If so, are 
> there any fixes or workarounds?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dave.

i for one don't buy into everyone's idea that using the internal 
sequencer in the MD is the best way.  and yes, you can set Cubase to 
be the master and MD as the slave and it works fine.  just needs a bit 
of working with.

i'm using Cubase and the MD as well.  if you ask me, the best thing is 
to program your patterns in the MD.  now you can use the step 
sequencer and parameter locks.  so what do you lose out on by not 
using the MD's Song Mode?  that i'd like to know.

so trigger your MD patterns in Cubase using QUE mode (i've found it 
syncs the best).  now you can of course also automate the MD like mad 
using Cubase.  can you automate with the internal MD sequencer?  i 
don't think so.

i used the think it wasn't possible to sync these two, heard a lot of 
horror stories, but you have to work with it a bit.  you may want to 
read this:

http://www.elektron-users.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?
topic_id=273&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&start=0

On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 04:20:14PM -0000, dougvarn wrote:
> i for one don't buy into everyone's idea that using the internal 
> sequencer in the MD is the best way.  and yes, you can set Cubase to 
> be the master and MD as the slave and it works fine.  just needs a bit 
> of working with.

absolutely.  i use digital performer, although i prefer to
echo the MD's clock to my pther devices.  it works
fantastically.

there are some compositional tasks to which a DAW is simply
better-suited.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

> absolutely.  i use digital performer, although i prefer to
> echo the MD's clock to my pther devices.  it works
> fantastically.

how do you do that?  do i understand you right, you sync DP as the 
master to the MD as a slave, but somehow manage the MD as a master to 
the other devices?  please explain...this sounds interesting

On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 04:47:37PM -0000, dougvarn wrote:
> > absolutely.  i use digital performer, although i prefer to
> > echo the MD's clock to my pther devices.  it works
> > fantastically.
> 
> how do you do that?  do i understand you right, you sync DP as the 
> master to the MD as a slave, but somehow manage the MD as a master to 
> the other devices?  please explain...this sounds interesting

i can't address cubase, but digital performer has an "echo
received clock" option that will publish midi clock to the
ports i define.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

> i can't address cubase, but digital performer has an "echo
> received clock" option that will publish midi clock to the
> ports i define.

oh, so you do actually have MD the master, slaving DP and passing 
through the MD sync to the other devices?

sorry, this is an official thread hijack  ;)

On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 05:15:09PM -0000, dougvarn wrote:
> > i can't address cubase, but digital performer has an "echo
> > received clock" option that will publish midi clock to the
> > ports i define.
> 
> oh, so you do actually have MD the master, slaving DP and passing 
> through the MD sync to the other devices?

when it suits me, yep.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> 
wrote:
> i for one don't buy into everyone's idea that using the internal 
> sequencer in the MD is the best way.  and yes, you can set Cubase 
to 
> be the master and MD as the slave and it works fine.  just needs a 
bit 
> of working with.
> 
> i'm using Cubase and the MD as well.  if you ask me, the best 
thing is 
> to program your patterns in the MD.  now you can use the step 
> sequencer and parameter locks.  so what do you lose out on by not 
> using the MD's Song Mode?  that i'd like to know.

i dont think its a case of win or lose, just personal preference. 
the MD is geared towards using song mode for sequencing. its very 
powerful if you sit down and program it, also very straight forward 
compared to other hardware. i dont find myself using it all the 
time, but whenever i take the time to carefully program it the 
results are always great. being able to switch between song and 
pattern mode while the sequencer is running makes it nice for 
performance too. as far as timing goes, the collective idea that 
using a hardware (MD) clock is superior to using cubase is not for 
sale, its just a $2 fact.

> 
> so trigger your MD patterns in Cubase using QUE mode (i've found 
it 
> syncs the best).  now you can of course also automate the MD like 
mad 
> using Cubase.  can you automate with the internal MD sequencer?  i 
> don't think so.

assuming you mean automate parameters? you could use parameterlocks 
and LFOs if you wanted to, thats what i do. u bet you can do some 
crazy stuff with cubase automation though, fluid parameter changes 
without having to use LFOs and SLIDE for example, but personally 
dont like using the computer for anything other than storage and 
recording. of course, if the sound of softsynths was better 
computers were reliable and cubase was more fun to use, then it 
might be a different story. once again opinions differ, however the 
same goal remains.. make music with ELEKTRON gear!

> 
> i used the think it wasn't possible to sync these two, heard a lot 
of 
> horror stories, but you have to work with it a bit.  you may want 
to 
> read this:
> 
> http://www.elektron-users.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?
> topic_id=273&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&start=0

i think everyone agrees that you SHOULD buy an MD!

Hi Dave,

I suspect that I was the one who put this thought in your mind - over 
on the Sunesha Access Virus forum - right?

Anyway,

Just to put the record straight - I have found that the MD timing is 
spot on and in an ideal world I would set the MD as the Master and 
slave Cubase to it - thing is Cubase won't sync to an external MIDI 
Clock - not good - anyone know if this is likely to change???

So my only alternative (other than changing to a hardware sequencer, 
which I don't really want to do because of the advantages Cubase gives 
me) is to sync the MD to the MIDI clock of Cubase.

This is where the problem arises that I highlighted on the Virus 
forum.  When I record the output of the MD (notes sequenced by Cubase) 
into Cubase I find the timing appauling.  If I just have a 4/4 beat 
with just a kick sound and then look at the wav file, some of the kicks 
lie infront of the beat by anything up to 300 samples whilst other 
kicks may be behind the beat by the same amount, there is no 
consistency in it.

Now I know the problem is the PC and Cubase and I also know it is going 
to be the same with any software running on any platform where the 
software is acting as the Master MIDI Clock.

I have heard of one workaround which involves the MD being the master 
sending a MIDI Clock into the PC.  There is then some software (I can't 
remember the name) that reads the MIDI Clock and converts it to SMPTE, 
which I believe Cubase can sync to.

Has anyone heard of this or ever achieved it - my attempts have failed 
as the software hogs the MIDI port and then Cubase won't see it.


I hope this has shed some light on the reported issue and I hope Cubase 
sort out the external MIDI clock sync, cause at the end of the day that 
is the cause of the issue!


Drammy

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dvking_uk" <dvking_uk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> New to this forum so hello. I'm thinking of getting a machinedrum but 
> was wondering about MIDI sync issues with Cubase. I run Cubase SL at 
> the moment with an Audiophile 2496 soundcard. Does anyone know if 
> there are issues to do with the machinedrum being a few samples 
behind 

> and not completely in sync with everything else in Cubase. If so, are 
> there any fixes or workarounds?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dave.

Drammy,
thanks for your input and scope of it.

let me ask, when you said you were recording the output of the MD with 
notes sequenced by Cubase, do you mean you were using Cubase to 
trigger your internal MD patterns or were you using midi notes from 
Cubase to create patterns (and thus not using triggering the MD's 
internal patterns)?

anyhow, i'd REALLY be interested in knowing about even the workaround 
mentioned so Cubase could slave to MD clock.

i'll look around on it, anyone else please keep us posted.

Dougvarn,

I was triggering individual notes - not MD patterns


Drammy


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> wrote:
> Drammy,
> thanks for your input and scope of it.
> 
> let me ask, when you said you were recording the output of the MD 
with 

> notes sequenced by Cubase, do you mean you were using Cubase to 
> trigger your internal MD patterns or were you using midi notes from 
> Cubase to create patterns (and thus not using triggering the MD's 
> internal patterns)?
> 
> anyhow, i'd REALLY be interested in knowing about even the workaround 
> mentioned so Cubase could slave to MD clock.
> 
> i'll look around on it, anyone else please keep us posted.

> I was triggering individual notes - not MD patterns

so wait, then why would you even need to sync the MD up with a 
seqeuncer if you were just using midi notes?
sorry, i'm just new to this and curious how and why people do things 
(all in effort to find out what works best for me!)  ;0

so far i'm liking triggering patterns from Cubase.  but this 
definitely requires sync from Cubase for tempo matching.  but so far, 
it works fine for me, although i haven't tried mixing down to audio.  
maybe that's where i'll find sync problems?  during normal playback, 
however, i don't.  

otherwise, i'm tempted to keep my setup this way.  but if anyone does 
find the software to convert MD signal to something Cubase can sync 
to, please do post it.

like i said before, now i get to have the power of the MD's grid 
programming and parameter locks, but i can also automate parameters 
like mad in Cubase.  the only one that kind of sucks there is doing 
mutes.  if the MD could record mutes as CC info!  that would be nice.

Sorry Dougvarn,

error on my part - I was indeed triggering patterns.

I think you will also find when bouncing down to audio that the 
timing is out...


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> 
wrote:
> > I was triggering individual notes - not MD patterns
> 
> so wait, then why would you even need to sync the MD up with a 
> seqeuncer if you were just using midi notes?
> sorry, i'm just new to this and curious how and why people do 
things 
> (all in effort to find out what works best for me!)  ;0
> 
> so far i'm liking triggering patterns from Cubase.  but this 
> definitely requires sync from Cubase for tempo matching.  but so 
far, 
> it works fine for me, although i haven't tried mixing down to 
audio.  
> maybe that's where i'll find sync problems?  during normal 
playback, 
> however, i don't.  
> 
> otherwise, i'm tempted to keep my setup this way.  but if anyone 
does 
> find the software to convert MD signal to something Cubase can sync 
> to, please do post it.
> 
> like i said before, now i get to have the power of the MD's grid 
> programming and parameter locks, but i can also automate parameters 
> like mad in Cubase.  the only one that kind of sucks there is doing 
> mutes.  if the MD could record mutes as CC info!  that would be 
nice.

> like i said before, now i get to have the power of the MD's grid 
> programming and parameter locks, but i can also automate parameters 
> like mad in Cubase.  the only one that kind of sucks there is doing 
> mutes.  if the MD could record mutes as CC info!  that would be nice.

Hey, it would be cool to hear some beats done with parameter locks and
cubase automation. Maybe you could upload some with small explanation
what is automated in cubase?

Toni.

well, good to know...i will check soon about losing sync bouncing to 
audio...so far, after working with it and getting some great help at 
elektron-users.com, it at least apprears to be in sync during 
playback.  till this point, i've assumed it would be fine after 
bouncing down.  

as far as audio examples, i wish i had some ;0
i do actually, but not so much with parameter locked patterns and 
Cubase automation.  i have some of me just tweaking a kit like mad 
with the CTRL-AL machine.  a machine that is a bit hard to tame, but 
can really get some of the wildest sounds i've gotten my MD to do.

anyway, i'm really new to this all and am more trying to get things 
in the right direction before going down a path too far and later 
realizing it would have been better to have done it some other way.

but still, the MD being fully automatable in itself makes for mind 
boggling potential.  and yes, having your cool little parameter locks 
being included with the ability to automate parameters also via a 
sequencer, to me in my setup, is the most flexible way to use the MD.

now i just gotta see if it'll fully work!

otherwise, i'll be looking back into sycing Cubase to the MD...if 
that is possible...

so come on, what are others using Cubase and the MD doing?
isn't someone else out there able to attest to using Cubase as a 
master, slaving the MD, triggering patterns via MIDI and also using 
Cubase for MD parameter automation?

well, i'll say it seems to work fine for me.  i triggered MD 
patterns from Cubase with Cubase as the master, bounced it to 
audio.  then laid a quicky bassline over it with a softsynth, 
bounced it all down as audio and it sounds fine.  perfectly in 
sync.  Drammy (almost called you Jammy, like Prince Jammy, yeah?), 
check the elektron-users.com post.

it must be some settings..., i don't think so much the fault of 
Cubase, certainly not the MD.  people rag on Cubase, but i have it 
working fine...although i haven't tested it a ton yet.  so maybe i 
speak too soon.

anyway, i'm psyched, if you ask me, this is the best of both 
worlds.  programming patterns in the MD, utilizing parameter locks 
there, then sequencing in Cubase and having all the parameter 
automation i could dream of alongside it.

i will say dealing with mutes in Cubase isn't the best...currently 
drawing in volume tweaks for each machine.  apparently there is a 
way to use midi notes to program mutes, i don't know it yet, but a 
guy from elektron-users mentioned it.  that and it would be nice if 
the MD transmitted something on it's own when you mute/unmute.  then 
you could record mutes in realtime right into Cubase.  and editing 
them would be much easier than dealing with a constant volume 
curve...

> it must be some settings..., i don't think so much the fault of 
> Cubase, certainly not the MD.  people rag on Cubase, but i have it 
> working fine...although i haven't tested it a ton yet.  so maybe i 
> speak too soon.
> 

What hardware midi device are you using.  Are you using a Midex that 
uses Cubase's time-stamping feature?

Have you actually gone in and looked at the WAV file?

Record the percussion in from the MD and then view the recording - 
I'm sure you will find that some sounds are behind the beat and some 
are infront.  Rather than listening to it - just view it in the 
cubase sample editor.

People can argue that if it sounds ok then it is ok, but I simply 
can't work with it knowing that it is not how I want it to be...


v. frustrating,

Drammy

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> 
wrote:
> well, i'll say it seems to work fine for me.  i triggered MD 
> patterns from Cubase with Cubase as the master, bounced it to 
> audio.  then laid a quicky bassline over it with a softsynth, 
> bounced it all down as audio and it sounds fine.  perfectly in 
> sync.  Drammy (almost called you Jammy, like Prince Jammy, yeah?), 
> check the elektron-users.com post.
> 
> it must be some settings..., i don't think so much the fault of 
> Cubase, certainly not the MD.  people rag on Cubase, but i have it 
> working fine...although i haven't tested it a ton yet.  so maybe i 
> speak too soon.
> 
> anyway, i'm psyched, if you ask me, this is the best of both 
> worlds.  programming patterns in the MD, utilizing parameter locks 
> there, then sequencing in Cubase and having all the parameter 
> automation i could dream of alongside it.
> 
> i will say dealing with mutes in Cubase isn't the best...currently 
> drawing in volume tweaks for each machine.  apparently there is a 
> way to use midi notes to program mutes, i don't know it yet, but a 
> guy from elektron-users mentioned it.  that and it would be nice if 
> the MD transmitted something on it's own when you mute/unmute.  
then 

> you could record mutes in realtime right into Cubase.  and editing 
> them would be much easier than dealing with a constant volume 
> curve...

I'll give you $20 for it if it is that bad for you.  Or, if it is
therapeutic, send it along with a $20 fee directly to me.

This syndrome is why I have guitars.

chris-"If it sounds ok, it is ok."-m

alternately, "If it sounds ok, you are actually using it."

> People can argue that if it sounds ok then it is ok, but I simply
> can't work with it knowing that it is not how I want it to be...
>
>
> v. frustrating,
>
> Drammy
>
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...>
> wrote:
>> well, i'll say it seems to work fine for me.  i triggered MD
>> patterns from Cubase with Cubase as the master, bounced it to
>> audio.  then laid a quicky bassline over it with a softsynth,
>> bounced it all down as audio and it sounds fine.  perfectly in
>> sync.  Drammy (almost called you Jammy, like Prince Jammy, yeah?),
>> check the elektron-users.com post.
>>
>> it must be some settings..., i don't think so much the fault of
>> Cubase, certainly not the MD.  people rag on Cubase, but i have it
>> working fine...although i haven't tested it a ton yet.  so maybe i
>> speak too soon.
>>
>> anyway, i'm psyched, if you ask me, this is the best of both
>> worlds.  programming patterns in the MD, utilizing parameter locks
>> there, then sequencing in Cubase and having all the parameter
>> automation i could dream of alongside it.
>>
>> i will say dealing with mutes in Cubase isn't the best...currently
>> drawing in volume tweaks for each machine.  apparently there is a
>> way to use midi notes to program mutes, i don't know it yet, but a
>> guy from elektron-users mentioned it.  that and it would be nice if
>> the MD transmitted something on it's own when you mute/unmute.
> then
>> you could record mutes in realtime right into Cubase.  and editing
>> them would be much easier than dealing with a constant volume
>> curve...
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

well, i do see the off beat-ness...i will say that.  for me, it's 
always a little ahead of the beat, doesn't seem ever behind.

at first i was dismayed.  then i realized how zoomed in i was.
at a "normal" zoom, it looks dead on...zoomed in so far that one 
sixteenth note spans my whole screen.  now i can see that basically, 
it's off a little less than a 1/128 note! no wonder i can't hear it!

so for the record, i am syncing the two, giving two bars of empty 
space first (just to let the sync get established a bit before 
recording) and recording the audio at, well, 2ms latency.  surely, 
that helps.  otherwise, i'm using a Midisport 2X2 USB midi interface.

i dunno...it is off, but such a small amount, i think i'm going to go 
with it.  i'd be curious to see how much it's off for you guys.  
spread a sixteenth note across your screen, keep halfing that distance 
to 32/64/and then 128 notes to measure how off your distance from the 
one is.

for now i think i'll go with it...  ;)

last thing though, possibly an important thing:

i tried taking off the sync from Cubase to MD and setting each to the 
same BPM, then recording.  you know what, i still have the exact same 
amount of ahead of the beatness!!!  so are we really seeing faulty 
sync or am i just seeing some small, largely unnoticeable, amount of 
latency?

This sounds like latency to me.

This is not the same as my experiences - I can have a 4/4 beat where 
the first kick may be 200 samples before the beat, the second may be 
150 samples after the beat, the next 300 samples after the beat and 
the last could be 100 samples before the beat.

I cannot correct this by nudging the audio, like you should be able 
to do...


Thanks for checking though,

Drammy


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> 
wrote:
> well, i do see the off beat-ness...i will say that.  for me, it's 
> always a little ahead of the beat, doesn't seem ever behind.
> 
> at first i was dismayed.  then i realized how zoomed in i was.
> at a "normal" zoom, it looks dead on...zoomed in so far that one 
> sixteenth note spans my whole screen.  now i can see that 
basically, 
> it's off a little less than a 1/128 note! no wonder i can't hear it!
> 
> so for the record, i am syncing the two, giving two bars of empty 
> space first (just to let the sync get established a bit before 
> recording) and recording the audio at, well, 2ms latency.  surely, 
> that helps.  otherwise, i'm using a Midisport 2X2 USB midi 
interface.
> 
> i dunno...it is off, but such a small amount, i think i'm going to 
go 
> with it.  i'd be curious to see how much it's off for you guys.  
> spread a sixteenth note across your screen, keep halfing that 
distance 
> to 32/64/and then 128 notes to measure how off your distance from 
the 
> one is.
> 
> for now i think i'll go with it...  ;)
> 
> last thing though, possibly an important thing:
> 
> i tried taking off the sync from Cubase to MD and setting each to 
the 
> same BPM, then recording.  you know what, i still have the exact 
same 
> amount of ahead of the beatness!!!  so are we really seeing faulty 
> sync or am i just seeing some small, largely unnoticeable, amount 
of 
> latency?

can i ask what your sync settings are in Cubase and the MD?  what's 
your latency setting in the audio card?  what midi interface are you 
using?  trying to see why we seem to get different results.

also, possibly most important, what TRIG mode (under midi map editor) 
are you using in the MD?  i could actually hear noticeably bad sync 
using STRT mode and have found QUE mode is the most solid, for me 
anyway...

I'm using an RME HDSP9632, triggering patterns using single notes in 
Cubase, triggering mode=QUE,
Tempo In - External
Cntrl In - Off
Tempo Out - Off
Cntrl Out - Off
Local Cntrl = On

Sounds card latency is currently set to about 3ms


Drammy

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> wrote:

> can i ask what your sync settings are in Cubase and the MD?  what's 
> your latency setting in the audio card?  what midi interface are you 
> using?  trying to see why we seem to get different results.
> 
> also, possibly most important, what TRIG mode (under midi map editor) 
> are you using in the MD?  i could actually hear noticeably bad sync 
> using STRT mode and have found QUE mode is the most solid, for me 
> anyway...

> I'm using an RME HDSP9632, triggering patterns using single notes in 
> Cubase, triggering mode=QUE,
> Tempo In - External
> Cntrl In - Off
> Tempo Out - Off
> Cntrl Out - Off
> Local Cntrl = On
> 
> Sounds card latency is currently set to about 3ms

well, it doesn't sound hardware related.  at least i know RME is good 
stuff.  otherwise, you're set up just like me!  very odd.
i'm out of ideas...other than maybe what version Cubase you're using, 
although i doubt there is much difference in sync from one version to 
the next...though i could be wrong.  i'm on the latest 3.0.1 or so

I'm guessing some problems might come from the motherboard and such.
Since all compters are digital machines, they operate with some sort
of sync-signal from cpu to other hardware (graphics adapteer and
such). Maybe problems are occuring to people, when the sync-system
(whatever it is ) isn't behaving stabilized. I don't know, just
guessing...

Toni.

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> wrote:

> > I'm using an RME HDSP9632, triggering patterns using single notes in 
> > Cubase, triggering mode=QUE,
> > Tempo In - External
> > Cntrl In - Off
> > Tempo Out - Off
> > Cntrl Out - Off
> > Local Cntrl = On
> > 
> > Sounds card latency is currently set to about 3ms
> 
> well, it doesn't sound hardware related.  at least i know RME is good 
> stuff.  otherwise, you're set up just like me!  very odd.
> i'm out of ideas...other than maybe what version Cubase you're using, 
> although i doubt there is much difference in sync from one version to 
> the next...though i could be wrong.  i'm on the latest 3.0.1 or so

maybe...

It is quite a highly regarded motherboard though - an ASUS P4P800-E

I had the same issues with the previous motherboard as well - which 
was the -VM version.

Drammy


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "tahvenaine2002" 
<toni.ahvenainen@p...> wrote:
> I'm guessing some problems might come from the motherboard and such.
> Since all compters are digital machines, they operate with some sort
> of sync-signal from cpu to other hardware (graphics adapteer and
> such). Maybe problems are occuring to people, when the sync-system
> (whatever it is ) isn't behaving stabilized. I don't know, just
> guessing...
> 
> Toni.
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> 
wrote:
> > > I'm using an RME HDSP9632, triggering patterns using single 
notes in 
> > > Cubase, triggering mode=QUE,
> > > Tempo In - External
> > > Cntrl In - Off
> > > Tempo Out - Off
> > > Cntrl Out - Off
> > > Local Cntrl = On
> > > 
> > > Sounds card latency is currently set to about 3ms
> > 
> > well, it doesn't sound hardware related.  at least i know RME is 
good 
> > stuff.  otherwise, you're set up just like me!  very odd.
> > i'm out of ideas...other than maybe what version Cubase you're 
using, 
> > although i doubt there is much difference in sync from one 
version to 
> > the next...though i could be wrong.  i'm on the latest 3.0.1 or so

I kind of ment the components in general rather than motherboard
itself. Or the set of components doing the thing together. Anyway, I'm
compleatly out off answers... These things beats me. (and I've used
computers over 10 years.)

Toni.

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "drammy2004" <martyn@r...> wrote:

> maybe...
> 
> It is quite a highly regarded motherboard though - an ASUS P4P800-E
> 
> I had the same issues with the previous motherboard as well - which 
> was the -VM version.
> 
> Drammy
> 
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "tahvenaine2002" 
> <toni.ahvenainen@p...> wrote:
> > I'm guessing some problems might come from the motherboard and such.
> > Since all compters are digital machines, they operate with some sort
> > of sync-signal from cpu to other hardware (graphics adapteer and
> > such). Maybe problems are occuring to people, when the sync-system
> > (whatever it is ) isn't behaving stabilized. I don't know, just
> > guessing...
> > 
> > Toni.
> > 
> > --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> 
> wrote:
> > > > I'm using an RME HDSP9632, triggering patterns using single 
> notes in 
> > > > Cubase, triggering mode=QUE,
> > > > Tempo In - External
> > > > Cntrl In - Off
> > > > Tempo Out - Off
> > > > Cntrl Out - Off
> > > > Local Cntrl = On
> > > > 
> > > > Sounds card latency is currently set to about 3ms
> > > 
> > > well, it doesn't sound hardware related.  at least i know RME is 
> good 
> > > stuff.  otherwise, you're set up just like me!  very odd.
> > > i'm out of ideas...other than maybe what version Cubase you're 
> using, 
> > > although i doubt there is much difference in sync from one 
> version to 
> > > the next...though i could be wrong.  i'm on the latest 3.0.1 or so

hmmm...it is kind of shot in the dark.  Drammy, did you say what 
version of Cubase you were using?

i will say that, and pardon me, i do need to investigate futher, that 
when i went in and adjusted the recording offset under "expert" 
settings, that while it did help the small latency, i did now notice 
that the MD was now like you described, sometimes a smidgen before and 
after the beat.  with this setting set to zero, i swear i saw only a 
small amount of after the beats...i figure this maybe noteworthy

i will experiment some more...Drammy, how did you measure your "off 
the beat" count to roughly 200-300 samples?  i'd like to compare or 
better understand how much your recordings are off compared to mine.

New to the group and this discussion but just like to chime in that I 
have always had about a 300 sample offset when bouncing audio tracks 
down from a midi source or clock synced source in Cubase SX 1, 2 and 3.
This is using various computers and sound cards (and synths/samplers)
I'm now using a p4 2.4, ASUS P4PE, Midex8, RME HDSP 9652 and Behringer 
ADA8000 converters with the same problem.
Steinberg are supposed to have a maintenace release of SX3 this summer 
which addresses this issue, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  Also, we 
are only talking about 7ms here (with a 44.1 project) and there is 
always going to be latency in the hardware (MachineDrum, MonoMachine 
whatever) between the midi interface sending the note on message and 
the hardware generating a sound.  I'm very used to chopping off the 
first 300 samples of my recordings now.
-grimley

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> 
wrote:
> hmmm...it is kind of shot in the dark.  Drammy, did you say what 
> version of Cubase you were using?
> 
> i will say that, and pardon me, i do need to investigate futher, 
that 
> when i went in and adjusted the recording offset under "expert" 
> settings, that while it did help the small latency, i did now notice 
> that the MD was now like you described, sometimes a smidgen before 
and 

> after the beat.  with this setting set to zero, i swear i saw only a 
> small amount of after the beats...i figure this maybe noteworthy
> 
> i will experiment some more...Drammy, how did you measure your "off 
> the beat" count to roughly 200-300 samples?  i'd like to compare or 
> better understand how much your recordings are off compared to mine.

thanks for the chime Justin...i'm new to sequencing and such so i'm 
learning a lot still.
so far, at least with my case, my MD latency is so small that it 
really makes no difference when i hear it.  sure, when i zoom in like 
mad and see things a little off the beat, it's upsetting, but when i 
stop and hear it, i think otherwise.  and apparently there are ways to 
fix it, nudging, record offset settings in Cubase, etc.

i'm a drummer, and thinking i should just record myself tapping 
quarters (quarter notes that is) to a click track, with my damnest of 
concentration.  i'm good enough drummer to produce tracks that sound 
definitely "on beat".

and then zoom my own track in and see how much i'm off beat when it 
sounds dead on to me and possibly any other listener, then compare 
that with my MD's latency amount.  just for kicks...

Justin, you also mentioned you chop off the beginning of your songs a 
bit, but isn't the latency on going through the whole song?  how do 
you fix it?

Well, I only chop samples from the start of tracks recorded from 
external gear.  Open up the sample editor, change the ruler to 
samples and cut away.  You can also move the "sample start" marker.
Of course this may be completly unneccessary if you can't hear the 
offset.
I use a mixture of VSTis and hardware and of course VSTis are always 
sample accurate.  That has got to be the coolest feature of the 
Virus TI: hardware with soft-synth sample accuracy.


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> 
wrote:
> thanks for the chime Justin...i'm new to sequencing and such so 
i'm 
> learning a lot still.
> so far, at least with my case, my MD latency is so small that it 
> really makes no difference when i hear it.  sure, when i zoom in 
like 
> mad and see things a little off the beat, it's upsetting, but when 
i 
> stop and hear it, i think otherwise.  and apparently there are 
ways to 
> fix it, nudging, record offset settings in Cubase, etc.
> 
> i'm a drummer, and thinking i should just record myself tapping 
> quarters (quarter notes that is) to a click track, with my damnest 
of 
> concentration.  i'm good enough drummer to produce tracks that 
sound 
> definitely "on beat".
> 
> and then zoom my own track in and see how much i'm off beat when 
it 
> sounds dead on to me and possibly any other listener, then compare 
> that with my MD's latency amount.  just for kicks...
> 
> Justin, you also mentioned you chop off the beginning of your 
songs a 
> bit, but isn't the latency on going through the whole song?  how 
do 
> you fix it?

That has got to be the coolest feature of the 
> Virus TI: hardware with soft-synth sample accuracy.

and of the Powercore Virus too, huh?!  ;0
which i'm looking to purchase next...after they they fix the 
outstanding issues however...

>Steinberg are supposed to have a maintenace release of SX3 this 
>summer which addresses this issue, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Justin, curious how this is an SX3 problem...meaning, isn't this 
little bit of latency just inherit in this process of midi out to a 
device, and then running it's audio back in?  just wondering how they 
can "fix" something like that.  again, i'm new to this all, so keep 
that in mind...not trying to sound challenging  ;)

In the Cubase Sample editor,

the trick is to rightclick on the time/bar display at the top/bottom 
and change it to samples.

For my settings:  the Record offset is always set to 0, I manually 
adjust the samples as I can't always rely on the offset working as it 
should.

I use Cubase SL2.2 at the moment but have just ordered an upgrade to 
SX3, will test it against that when it arrives and let you know...


Drammy



--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> wrote:
> hmmm...it is kind of shot in the dark.  Drammy, did you say what 
> version of Cubase you were using?
> 
> i will say that, and pardon me, i do need to investigate futher, that 
> when i went in and adjusted the recording offset under "expert" 
> settings, that while it did help the small latency, i did now notice 
> that the MD was now like you described, sometimes a smidgen before 
and 

> after the beat.  with this setting set to zero, i swear i saw only a 
> small amount of after the beats...i figure this maybe noteworthy
> 
> i will experiment some more...Drammy, how did you measure your "off 
> the beat" count to roughly 200-300 samples?  i'd like to compare or 
> better understand how much your recordings are off compared to mine.

Thanks for the input Justin,

The thing is my recordings are slightly different to what you are 
talking about - a 4/4 kick pattern - the first kick may be 300 
samples before the beat, the second could be 120 samples after the 
next could be bang on the beat and the last could be 300 samples 
after the beat.

I agree with you that if the kicks were all in time I could just cut 
the start off / add some silence in and everything would be fine but 
I am not will to go through and do this for every beat.

Have you actually checked the rest of your beats, fair enough the 
first one is off but can you be certain the rest aren't how I've just 
described?


Just to reiterate - I don't believe this is an issue with the MD, I 
believe it is an issue with computers poor latency (in comparison to 
HW sequencers) and Cubase's inability to sync to an incoming MIDI 
clock.


Drammy


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Grimley" 
<grimley@i...> wrote:
> New to the group and this discussion but just like to chime in that 
I 
> have always had about a 300 sample offset when bouncing audio 
tracks 
> down from a midi source or clock synced source in Cubase SX 1, 2 
and 3.
> This is using various computers and sound cards (and 
synths/samplers)
> I'm now using a p4 2.4, ASUS P4PE, Midex8, RME HDSP 9652 and 
Behringer 
> ADA8000 converters with the same problem.
> Steinberg are supposed to have a maintenace release of SX3 this 
summer 
> which addresses this issue, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  Also, 
we 
> are only talking about 7ms here (with a 44.1 project) and there is 
> always going to be latency in the hardware (MachineDrum, 
MonoMachine 
> whatever) between the midi interface sending the note on message 
and 
> the hardware generating a sound.  I'm very used to chopping off the 
> first 300 samples of my recordings now.
> -grimley
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "dougvarn" <dougvarn@y...> 
> wrote:
> > hmmm...it is kind of shot in the dark.  Drammy, did you say what 
> > version of Cubase you were using?
> > 
> > i will say that, and pardon me, i do need to investigate futher, 
> that 
> > when i went in and adjusted the recording offset under "expert" 
> > settings, that while it did help the small latency, i did now 
notice 
> > that the MD was now like you described, sometimes a smidgen 
before 
> and 
> > after the beat.  with this setting set to zero, i swear i saw 
only a 
> > small amount of after the beats...i figure this maybe noteworthy
> > 
> > i will experiment some more...Drammy, how did you measure 
your "off 
> > the beat" count to roughly 200-300 samples?  i'd like to compare 
or 
> > better understand how much your recordings are off compared to 
mine.

...if the timing is fluctuating you probably have a setup with bad
MIDI timing for your interface. Developing our turbo midi interface we
delved into the cause of getting bad MIDI clocks from WinXP compared
to Mac.

By following the tip in this post below and choosing 2 "non-emulated"
port we could get the Win XP to be just as tight as Mac. It applies to
Cubase just as Nuendo. It's quite interesting how Cubase on XP always
chooses the "emulated" port with 

http://www.jay.fm/blog/pc-midi-timing-and-nuendo.html

When we test MIDI timing we transform the clock data to audio (just a
cable) and check if the resluting tone is steady. It's horrifying
listening to the tone or looking at the FFT spectra of a Cubase/XP
setup without the fix applied, you can clearly hear that it's not
suitable for any kind of timing. 

To check the timing you could also use the Tempo screen of the Mono/MD
and see if it is fluctuating more than just a few tenths.

...even with the fix applied the MD and Mono clock is much more steady
though of course. :)

Daniel

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "drammy2004" <martyn@r...> wrote:

> Thanks for the input Justin,
> 
> The thing is my recordings are slightly different to what you are 
> talking about - a 4/4 kick pattern - the first kick may be 300 
> samples before the beat, the second could be 120 samples after the 
> next could be bang on the beat and the last could be 300 samples 
> after the beat.
> 
> I agree with you that if the kicks were all in time I could just cut 
> the start off / add some silence in and everything would be fine but 
> I am not will to go through and do this for every beat.
> 
> Have you actually checked the rest of your beats, fair enough the 
> first one is off but can you be certain the rest aren't how I've just 
> described?
> 
> 
> Just to reiterate - I don't believe this is an issue with the MD, I 
> believe it is an issue with computers poor latency (in comparison to 
> HW sequencers) and Cubase's inability to sync to an incoming MIDI 
> clock.
> 
> 
> Drammy

Thanks Daniel,

I remember reading that link somewhere before.

I don't use the emulated ports, I always place the ignoreportfilter 
into the Cubase folder.

I have just bought Cubase SX3 so will try the timestamp fix when it 
arrives and keep you updated.


Will let you know how I get on.

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_elektron" 
<daniel@e...> wrote:
> 
> ...if the timing is fluctuating you probably have a setup with bad
> MIDI timing for your interface. Developing our turbo midi interface 
we
> delved into the cause of getting bad MIDI clocks from WinXP compared
> to Mac.
> 
> By following the tip in this post below and choosing 2 "non-
emulated"
> port we could get the Win XP to be just as tight as Mac. It applies 
to
> Cubase just as Nuendo. It's quite interesting how Cubase on XP 
always
> chooses the "emulated" port with 
> 
> http://www.jay.fm/blog/pc-midi-timing-and-nuendo.html
> 
> When we test MIDI timing we transform the clock data to audio (just 
a
> cable) and check if the resluting tone is steady. It's horrifying
> listening to the tone or looking at the FFT spectra of a Cubase/XP
> setup without the fix applied, you can clearly hear that it's not
> suitable for any kind of timing. 
> 
> To check the timing you could also use the Tempo screen of the 
Mono/MD
> and see if it is fluctuating more than just a few tenths.
> 
> ...even with the fix applied the MD and Mono clock is much more 
steady
> though of course. :)
> 
> Daniel
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "drammy2004" <martyn@r...> 
wrote:
> > Thanks for the input Justin,
> > 
> > The thing is my recordings are slightly different to what you are 
> > talking about - a 4/4 kick pattern - the first kick may be 300 
> > samples before the beat, the second could be 120 samples after 
the 
> > next could be bang on the beat and the last could be 300 samples 
> > after the beat.
> > 
> > I agree with you that if the kicks were all in time I could just 
cut 
> > the start off / add some silence in and everything would be fine 
but 
> > I am not will to go through and do this for every beat.
> > 
> > Have you actually checked the rest of your beats, fair enough the 
> > first one is off but can you be certain the rest aren't how I've 
just 
> > described?
> > 
> > 
> > Just to reiterate - I don't believe this is an issue with the MD, 
I 
> > believe it is an issue with computers poor latency (in comparison 
to 

> > HW sequencers) and Cubase's inability to sync to an incoming MIDI 
> > clock.
> > 
> > 
> > Drammy

thanks Daniel...
i tried both fixes, i checked "Use System Timestamp" and verified the 
use of non-emulated ports and my sync is still the absolute same.  to 
the ear though, it doesn't sound bad...at all really.

but i do see the tempo fluctuating between like 129.3 - 130.9 when 
Cubase is set to 130.  not sure how bad this is, relatively.

well, it seems the best still would be to slave Cubase to the MD.  i 
still haven't gotten around to searching for the rumored software that 
will transform the MD clock to something Cubase can sync to...

but again, to my ears so far, it sounds fine during playback and after 
bouncing down...i'm not sure if there's reason for me to fret even, 
but sure, it'd be nice to know it's as accurate as it could be.

> but i do see the tempo fluctuating between like 129.3 - 130.9 when 
> Cubase is set to 130.  not sure how bad this is, relatively.

also, just examined my MD clock through MIDIOX to find sync there was 
much better, mostly fluctuating as little as + or - 0.2 BPM.

what does that tell us?  Cubase is f***ing something up with the sync, 
yeah?