Elektron Musical Instruments

I just want to ask anybody who has recorded with a machine drum a 
question. If you have never recordeed the machine drum then please do 
not answer. In my studio I use a Demeter stereo tube direct into the 
inputs of the RME fireface 800. I meter in Samplitude to make sure 
that I go in as hot as possible to take full advantage of 24 bit 
recording as much as possible. I've noticed something. No matter how 
hot the sound coming out of the machine drum is, I always have noise. 
If the sound that I happen to be recording is low coming out of the 
machine drum the noise floor is even more apparent. I was wondering 
if this was a factory defect or if this is just the way that the 
machine is built. I've heard so many complaints on the net, but I 
can't really trust anybody who has an opinion like " It doesn't sound 
noisy to me.". I need to get an opinion from somebody who has done 
some extensive recording with the machine drum through a direct box, 
into a mic pre and into a DAW. I would only like to hear from you 
people, so I will be able to formulate a better insight. Do any of 
you people, with a similar setup to mine, experience the noise that 
I've been writing about. I just seems to me that the noise is almost 
unacceptable. I'm trying to determine if this problem is local to my 
machine drum or if it is just a characteristic of all machine drums. 
I am going to take my unit to a repair guy who is supposed to be 
pretty good at stuff like this. I will definatley keep you posted. By 
the way, Elektron was no help at all. They had the pass the buck 
mentality. That really pissed me off. I just want to get my machine 
fixed. I don't want to hear about who's responsability it is to get 
my machine fixed. I want to able to record without this hiss coming 
out of the outputs.

Hi, I record my MD into a Roland VS-2480 HDD DAW all the time. 
Individual outs and the stereo masters. No noise worth discussing 
compared to the audio signal. The only time I notice noise from the MD 
is when my overall track level is way down on the MD and the Volume 
parameter is also down on the track in question and possibly some 
filtering means I have to increase the pre-amp gain on the DAW to a 
silly level to get a good recorded signal. Once I hear the noise - I  
adust the headroom/gainstructure of the MD track that seems noisy to 
more usable levels and I can then re-set the pre-amp gain back to line 
level. In every case this results in a no-noise recording.

i have recorded with a machinedrum, and i would never record
into a mic pre into a fireface 800.  why are you recording
into the mic pre?  iirc, the MD outputs at +4dbu, and the
fireface accepts +4dbu, -10dbv and "low gain".

you haven't told us what the sound is like when you record
directly from the MD into the fireface, nor have you told us
what gain setting the fireface was set to - did you give
elektron this information?

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

yeah i am not sure why you are using a direct box either, i record the
MD a lot, most of the time through a console with each individual out,
 my console is set up to use -10 or +4 signals and the only noise i
get is tape hiss,  so if your computer is the problem i have no idea
how to help,  although if i were you i would try recording the stereo
outs directly into the soundcard.   also ask the question here  
www.elektron-users.com there are a lot of computer recorders there.

On 11/7/05, niall munnelly <aleph@aleph-null.net> wrote:
>  i have recorded with a machinedrum, and i would never record
>  into a mic pre into a fireface 800.  why are you recording
>  into the mic pre?  iirc, the MD outputs at +4dbu, and the
>  fireface accepts +4dbu, -10dbv and "low gain".
>
>  you haven't told us what the sound is like when you record
>  directly from the MD into the fireface, nor have you told us
>  what gain setting the fireface was set to - did you give
>  elektron this information?
>
>  --
>  yours,
>  niall.
>  .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
>  aleph null.                             a simple
> insinuation around silence.
>  http://syncretism.net
>  .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg
> .. ..
>
>
>
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I've recorded with the fireface only (line level), with the Demeter into to fireface, and also out of the Demeter into the Fireface at mic level. I've tried -10 +4 and low level. None of it will give me a sound without a lot of noise. The best setting coming out of the Demeter and into the fireface is at low level (mic level). I will then boost the gain to about 50% on the fireface. That's as far as I can go without getting noise from the fireface itself. I also have an Alesis Andromeda and I experience none of the problems that I have written about. I know all about playing with the gain to compensate for noise (through the pre or through the md itself or both). I did adjust for the optimum settings and at it's best it is still pretty noisy. By the way, the machine drum itself is not hot enough to record without the use of external amplification regardless of the +4 level output. So you ask "Why are you recoding in to the mic pre?". Answer: To get the levels hot enough to make a
 decent recording.

niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:i have recorded with a machinedrum, and i would never record
into a mic pre into a fireface 800.  why are you recording
into the mic pre?  iirc, the MD outputs at +4dbu, and the
fireface accepts +4dbu, -10dbv and "low gain".

you haven't told us what the sound is like when you record
directly from the MD into the fireface, nor have you told us
what gain setting the fireface was set to - did you give
elektron this information?

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..


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This is the reason that I use the direct box. The demeter is a tube DB. It has a natural sustaining characteristic that display traits of compression and natural sound that I love. I would think that if you were recording through a console that you probably would not be able to notice the noise of the md anyway, seeing on how the mixer would be generating it's own noise. By the way, the Demeter is way clean and I never had any trouble recording my andromeda without noise.

Josh Watson <companyofquail@...> wrote:yeah i am not sure why you are using a direct box either, i record the
MD a lot, most of the time through a console with each individual out,
my console is set up to use -10 or +4 signals and the only noise i
get is tape hiss,  so if your computer is the problem i have no idea
how to help,  although if i were you i would try recording the stereo
outs directly into the soundcard.   also ask the question here  
www.elektron-users.com there are a lot of computer recorders there.

On 11/7/05, niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:
>  i have recorded with a machinedrum, and i would never record
>  into a mic pre into a fireface 800.  why are you recording
>  into the mic pre?  iirc, the MD outputs at +4dbu, and the
>  fireface accepts +4dbu, -10dbv and "low gain".
>
>  you haven't told us what the sound is like when you record
>  directly from the MD into the fireface, nor have you told us
>  what gain setting the fireface was set to - did you give
>  elektron this information?
>
>  --
>  yours,
>  niall.
>  .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
>  aleph null.                             a simple
> insinuation around silence.
>  http://syncretism.net
>  .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg
> .. ..
>
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>  Visit your group "elektron-users" on the web.
>
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>  ________________________________
>


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yes i see your point now, i was just thinking you were going into a DI
box(ie converts instrument signal to line level) then going to the demter.
sorry for the confusion. yes the demeter is great, i own one and do now
experience these problems. please post a clip of your andomeda and your MD
up on www.elektron-users.com <http://www.elektron-users.com> real quick so
we can compare.

On 11/8/05, s a <lucinniega@...> wrote:
>
> This is the reason that I use the direct box. The demeter is a tube DB. It
> has a natural sustaining characteristic that display traits of compression
> and natural sound that I love. I would think that if you were recording
> through a console that you probably would not be able to notice the noise of
> the md anyway, seeing on how the mixer would be generating it's own noise.
> By the way, the Demeter is way clean and I never had any trouble recording
> my andromeda without noise.
>
> Josh Watson <companyofquail@...> wrote:yeah i am not sure why you
> are using a direct box either, i record the
> MD a lot, most of the time through a console with each individual out,
> my console is set up to use -10 or +4 signals and the only noise i
> get is tape hiss, so if your computer is the problem i have no idea
> how to help, although if i were you i would try recording the stereo
> outs directly into the soundcard. also ask the question here
> www.elektron-users.com <http://www.elektron-users.com/> there are a lot of
> computer recorders there.
>
> On 11/7/05, niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:
> > i have recorded with a machinedrum, and i would never record
> > into a mic pre into a fireface 800. why are you recording
> > into the mic pre? iirc, the MD outputs at +4dbu, and the
> > fireface accepts +4dbu, -10dbv and "low gain".
> >
> > you haven't told us what the sound is like when you record
> > directly from the MD into the fireface, nor have you told us
> > what gain setting the fireface was set to - did you give
> > elektron this information?
> >
> > --
> > yours,
> > niall.
> > .. . . . . . . . . .
> > aleph null. a simple
> > insinuation around silence.
> > http://syncretism.net
> > .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg
> > .. ..
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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> >
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On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 11:39:45PM -0800, s a wrote:
>    By the way, the machine drum itself is not hot enough to record without the use of external amplification regardless of the +4 level output. So you ask "Why are you recoding in to the mic pre?". Answer: To get the levels hot enough to make a
>  decent recording.

then your experience is unlike any other described here.
post detailed sound examples, provide them to elektron
support, and see if you can get a different MD from them or
your vendor {if you bought it new recently}.  remember to
bypass the pre - this was made for line-level inputs.

also, can you describe the noise?  do you hear it on all
outs?

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

<<By the way, the machine drum itself is not hot enough to record 
without the use of external amplification regardless of the +4 level 
output. So you ask "Why are you recording in to the mic pre?". Answer: 
To get the levels hot enough to make a decent recording.>>

Sounds to me like you're getting the levels hot enough to NOT make a 
decent recording.

You should record the noise, profile it, use a good noise reduction, 
then move on with your life.

Mark

I don't know how you record but this is the way that I do it. I usually track as hot as possible to ensure that I get the best recording. That means I get as close to clipping the input without actually doing it. I don't know of any instrument, +4 or not that can do this without any external amplification. 
 
"remember to
bypass the pre - this was made for line-level inputs."

 
Are you serious? Do you know what a direct box does? It changes the impedence of the incoming signal to mic level. Then the audio is fit to be passed through a mic pre for amplification. After which I will be able to reach a proper recording level. Only when the signal reaches a suitable level, does it become very apparent where the noise floor is. By the way, the noise floor can be monitored on my unit without any external amplification at all, through the headphones. It is a "white" like noise that exists on all outputs and the heaphone outs. I can monitor this noise at just above the half way point on the volume knob, and it only becomes more apparent as the knob is turned up. Could someone please check their unit out to see if it does the same thing? Please don't respond without actually checking it out. 

 I would like to get responses from people that have experience recording the machine drum through a front end such as a direct box and mic pre. It's seems that those people will know a little bit more about the recording process. 


niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote: 
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 11:39:45PM -0800, s a wrote:
>    By the way, the machine drum itself is not hot enough to record without the use of external amplification regardless of the +4 level output. So you ask "Why are you recoding in to the mic pre?". Answer: To get the levels hot enough to make a
>  decent recording.

then your experience is unlike any other described here.
post detailed sound examples, provide them to elektron
support, and see if you can get a different MD from them or
your vendor {if you bought it new recently}.  remember to
bypass the pre - this was made for line-level inputs.

also, can you describe the noise?  do you hear it on all
outs?

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..


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There is something wrong here. I don't use micpres, but I do have rme
hammerfall and record MD staright to it. Here are some observations:

1. My MD makes very little noise. Yeah, about 89 -dB. So it's
practically nothing. You can check this with digicheck, that came with
your fireface. So no noise from MD. 

2. MD is +4 dBu gear. You need to calibrate the firecafe to same
levels. I have my hammerfall at +4 dBu. MD puts out very good signal;
if I turn MD to full volume, I will hit exactly to 0 dB. So it can't
be that MD does not provide output hot enough.

3. Your problem might due the fact that mic-level is totally different
than +4dBu or -10 dBu. So you maybe feeding the micpre too much
signal, which will cause the noise. As with Andromeda, it might be -10
dBu gear, in which situation you are still playing with two different
signal levels, but not so much anymore. I would use the line
level-compressor for both machines. (as for +4 and -10 dBu thing; the
+4 is usually with progear and -10 is for consumer levels. +4 dBu
loses less signal on its way. Also in the states they usually do +4
gear, or something odd between.)

(4. in 24 bit domain, its not so freaking important to have as hot
signal as possible. Anyway it's recomemded to keep things below -6
anyway. In 16 bit world this was different. _but_ it's lot more
practical to start mixing things if you have tracks recorded nicely
and logically.)


I hope these help you a bit. :)

Toni. 


--- In elektron-users@...m, "lucinniega" <lucinniega@y...>
wrote:

>
> I just want to ask anybody who has recorded with a machine drum a 
> question. If you have never recordeed the machine drum then please do 
> not answer. In my studio I use a Demeter stereo tube direct into the 
> inputs of the RME fireface 800. I meter in Samplitude to make sure 
> that I go in as hot as possible to take full advantage of 24 bit 
> recording as much as possible. I've noticed something. No matter how 
> hot the sound coming out of the machine drum is, I always have noise. 
> If the sound that I happen to be recording is low coming out of the 
> machine drum the noise floor is even more apparent. I was wondering 
> if this was a factory defect or if this is just the way that the 
> machine is built. I've heard so many complaints on the net, but I 
> can't really trust anybody who has an opinion like " It doesn't sound 
> noisy to me.". I need to get an opinion from somebody who has done 
> some extensive recording with the machine drum through a direct box, 
> into a mic pre and into a DAW. I would only like to hear from you 
> people, so I will be able to formulate a better insight. Do any of 
> you people, with a similar setup to mine, experience the noise that 
> I've been writing about. I just seems to me that the noise is almost 
> unacceptable. I'm trying to determine if this problem is local to my 
> machine drum or if it is just a characteristic of all machine drums. 
> I am going to take my unit to a repair guy who is supposed to be 
> pretty good at stuff like this. I will definatley keep you posted. By 
> the way, Elektron was no help at all. They had the pass the buck 
> mentality. That really pissed me off. I just want to get my machine 
> fixed. I don't want to hear about who's responsability it is to get 
> my machine fixed. I want to able to record without this hiss coming 
> out of the outputs.
>

Is your MD one of the earlier ones?
There was a batch with noisy outputs.
Check with elektron.

Also, you don't need to record that hot: if the clips hit -6db then  
you're already using all available bits and recording hotter than  
that won't give you a better sound.


Il giorno 08/nov/05, alle ore 20:08, s a ha scritto:

>    I don't know how you record but this is the way that I do it. I  
> usually track as hot as possible to ensure that I get the best  
> recording. That means I get as close to clipping the input without  
> actually doing it. I don't know of any instrument, +4 or not that  
> can do this without any external amplification.
>
> "remember to
> bypass the pre - this was made for line-level inputs."
>
>
> Are you serious? Do you know what a direct box does? It changes the  
> impedence of the incoming signal to mic level. Then the audio is  
> fit to be passed through a mic pre for amplification. After which I  
> will be able to reach a proper recording level. Only when the  
> signal reaches a suitable level, does it become very apparent where  
> the noise floor is. By the way, the noise floor can be monitored on  
> my unit without any external amplification at all, through the  
> headphones. It is a "white" like noise that exists on all outputs  
> and the heaphone outs. I can monitor this noise at just above the  
> half way point on the volume knob, and it only becomes more  
> apparent as the knob is turned up. Could someone please check their  
> unit out to see if it does the same thing? Please don't respond  
> without actually checking it out.
>
>  I would like to get responses from people that have experience  
> recording the machine drum through a front end such as a direct box  
> and mic pre. It's seems that those people will know a little bit  
> more about the recording process.
>
>
> niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 11:39:45PM -0800, s a wrote:
>>    By the way, the machine drum itself is not hot enough to record  
>> without the use of external amplification regardless of the +4  
>> level output. So you ask "Why are you recoding in to the mic  
>> pre?". Answer: To get the levels hot enough to make a
>>  decent recording.
>
> then your experience is unlike any other described here.
> post detailed sound examples, provide them to elektron
> support, and see if you can get a different MD from them or
> your vendor {if you bought it new recently}.  remember to
> bypass the pre - this was made for line-level inputs.
>
> also, can you describe the noise?  do you hear it on all
> outs?
>
> -- 
> yours,
> niall.
> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .               
>    .
> aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around  
> silence.
> http://syncretism.net
> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
>
>
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On Nov 8, 2005, at 2:15 PM, tahvenaine2002 wrote:

> 2. MD is +4 dBu gear. You need to calibrate the firecafe to same
> levels. I have my hammerfall at +4 dBu. MD puts out very good signal;
> if I turn MD to full volume, I will hit exactly to 0 dB. So it can't
> be that MD does not provide output hot enough.

I've had the exact same experience.  Usually I end up turning it down  
a little to get it to -6 or so.

c.

On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 11:08:28AM -0800, s a wrote:
>  
> Are you serious? Do you know what a direct box does? It changes the impedence of the incoming signal to mic level. Then the audio is fit to be passed through a mic pre for amplification. After which I will be able to reach a proper recording level. Only when the signal reaches a suitable level, does it become very apparent where the noise floor is. By the way, the noise floor can be monitored on my unit without any external amplification at all, through the headphones. It is a "white" like noise that exists on all outputs and the heaphone outs. I can monitor this noise at just above the half way point on the volume knob, and it only becomes more apparent as the knob is turned up. Could someone please check their unit out to see if it does the same thing? Please don't respond without actually checking it out. 
> 
>  I would like to get responses from people that have experience recording the machine drum through a front end such as a direct box and mic pre. It's seems that those people will know a little bit more about the recording process. 

s a,
we're trying to help
you discern what the problem is with your machinedrum's 
setup - one _no one else here has reported_.  to do this, we
need to know what you're doing, how you're doing it and yes,
occasionally _why_ you're doing it, especially when the
outputs of the machinedrum, unamplified and at line level,
are sufficiently hot to require compression on every +4db
interface that has been reported in use with it - this
includes the rme fireface 800, though i've also used the MD
with motu PCI devices, a digi-001 and a presonus
firestation.

if you want to reduce the line level signal to mic level,
and then into a mic pre, that's your business, but no
machinedrum i have ever played or recorded in the last two years has required this, and the machinedrum was not made with your setup in mind.  so, for the benefit of everyone involved, you need to perform basic troubleshooting tasks and record it as it's meant to be recorded, and move on from there.  reiterating my last email, if you have the same noise recording the MD at line level, then your experience is anomalous and possibly the result of a hardware defect - and you should press the issue with elektron.

finally, the headphone outs have been noisy on every unit
i've played at maximum volume.  the only noise i ever got
from the MD was a readily-redressed ground loop.


no amount of truculent, condescending and passive aggressive
bullshit on your end will change this.  so good luck with
that.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

This guy is obviously a total wab LOL

"Impedance" of a *signal* ??
After reading that it was just laughs all the way LOL :)



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.feline1.co.uk
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "niall munnelly" <aleph@...>
To: <elektron-users@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [elektron] Only for people that have recorded with a machine drum through a 
front end

> On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 11:08:28AM -0800, s a wrote:
>>
>> Are you serious? Do you know what a direct box does? It changes the impedence of the 
>> incoming signal to mic level. Then the audio is fit to be passed through a mic pre for 
>> amplification. After which I will be able to reach a proper recording level. Only when 
>> the signal reaches a suitable level, does it become very apparent where the noise floor 
>> is. By the way, the noise floor can be monitored on my unit without any external 
>> amplification at all, through the headphones. It is a "white" like noise that exists on 
>> all outputs and the heaphone outs. I can monitor this noise at just above the half way 
>> point on the volume knob, and it only becomes more apparent as the knob is turned up. 
>> Could someone please check their unit out to see if it does the same thing? Please don't 
>> respond without actually checking it out.
>>
>>  I would like to get responses from people that have experience recording the machine 
>> drum through a front end such as a direct box and mic pre. It's seems that those people 
>> will know a little bit more about the recording process.
>
> s a,
> we're trying to help
> you discern what the problem is with your machinedrum's
> setup - one _no one else here has reported_.  to do this, we
> need to know what you're doing, how you're doing it and yes,
> occasionally _why_ you're doing it, especially when the
> outputs of the machinedrum, unamplified and at line level,
> are sufficiently hot to require compression on every +4db
> interface that has been reported in use with it - this
> includes the rme fireface 800, though i've also used the MD
> with motu PCI devices, a digi-001 and a presonus
> firestation.
>
> if you want to reduce the line level signal to mic level,
> and then into a mic pre, that's your business, but no
> machinedrum i have ever played or recorded in the last two years has required this, and 
> the machinedrum was not made with your setup in mind.  so, for the benefit of everyone 
> involved, you need to perform basic troubleshooting tasks and record it as it's meant to 
> be recorded, and move on from there.  reiterating my last email, if you have the same 
> noise recording the MD at line level, then your experience is anomalous and possibly the 
> result of a hardware defect - and you should press the issue with elektron.
>
> finally, the headphone outs have been noisy on every unit
> i've played at maximum volume.  the only noise i ever got
> from the MD was a readily-redressed ground loop.
>
>
> no amount of truculent, condescending and passive aggressive
> bullshit on your end will change this.  so good luck with
> that.
>
> -- 
> yours,
> niall.
> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
> aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
> http://syncretism.net
> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

o, hey, i just noticed the changed subject heading.

maybe the people who have a clue about recording
machinedrums on the gearslutz boards would be of better assistance.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

"I have my hammerfall at +4 dBu. MD puts out very good signal;
if I turn MD to full volume, I will hit exactly to 0 dB."
 
Oh really? Are you talking about mixed master out or are you talking about individual line out? If you are talking about individual line out, then what kit are you talking about? Which instrument? Are you saying that all the pieces (individual machines) in your kit come out of the output at the same level? WOW!
 
"in 24 bit domain, its not so freaking important to have as hot
signal as possible."
 
It is if you would like to take advantage of 24 bit recording. The greater the dynamic range the more it is advantagous to record 24 bit.
 
 
 


tahvenaine2002 <toni.ahvenainen@...> wrote:There is something wrong here. I don't use micpres, but I do have rme
hammerfall and record MD staright to it. Here are some observations:

1. My MD makes very little noise. Yeah, about 89 -dB. So it's
practically nothing. You can check this with digicheck, that came with
your fireface. So no noise from MD. 

2. MD is +4 dBu gear. You need to calibrate the firecafe to same
levels. I have my hammerfall at +4 dBu. MD puts out very good signal;
if I turn MD to full volume, I will hit exactly to 0 dB. So it can't
be that MD does not provide output hot enough.

3. Your problem might due the fact that mic-level is totally different
than +4dBu or -10 dBu. So you maybe feeding the micpre too much
signal, which will cause the noise. As with Andromeda, it might be -10
dBu gear, in which situation you are still playing with two different
signal levels, but not so much anymore. I would use the line
level-compressor for both machines. (as for +4 and -10 dBu thing; the
+4 is usually with progear and -10 is for consumer levels. +4 dBu
loses less signal on its way. Also in the states they usually do +4
gear, or something odd between.)

(4. in 24 bit domain, its not so freaking important to have as hot
signal as possible. Anyway it's recomemded to keep things below -6
anyway. In 16 bit world this was different. _but_ it's lot more
practical to start mixing things if you have tracks recorded nicely
and logically.)


I hope these help you a bit. :)

Toni. 


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "lucinniega" <lucinniega@y...>
wrote:
>
> I just want to ask anybody who has recorded with a machine drum a 
> question. If you have never recordeed the machine drum then please do 
> not answer. In my studio I use a Demeter stereo tube direct into the 
> inputs of the RME fireface 800. I meter in Samplitude to make sure 
> that I go in as hot as possible to take full advantage of 24 bit 
> recording as much as possible. I've noticed something. No matter how 
> hot the sound coming out of the machine drum is, I always have noise. 
> If the sound that I happen to be recording is low coming out of the 
> machine drum the noise floor is even more apparent. I was wondering 
> if this was a factory defect or if this is just the way that the 
> machine is built. I've heard so many complaints on the net, but I 
> can't really trust anybody who has an opinion like " It doesn't sound 
> noisy to me.". I need to get an opinion from somebody who has done 
> some extensive recording with the machine drum through a direct box, 
> into a mic pre and into a DAW. I would only like to hear from you 
> people, so I will be able to formulate a better insight. Do any of 
> you people, with a similar setup to mine, experience the noise that 
> I've been writing about. I just seems to me that the noise is almost 
> unacceptable. I'm trying to determine if this problem is local to my 
> machine drum or if it is just a characteristic of all machine drums. 
> I am going to take my unit to a repair guy who is supposed to be 
> pretty good at stuff like this. I will definatley keep you posted. By 
> the way, Elektron was no help at all. They had the pass the buck 
> mentality. That really pissed me off. I just want to get my machine 
> fixed. I don't want to hear about who's responsability it is to get 
> my machine fixed. I want to able to record without this hiss coming 
> out of the outputs.
>







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Answers below...

> "I have my hammerfall at +4 dBu. MD puts out very good signal;
> if I turn MD to full volume, I will hit exactly to 0 dB."
>  
> Oh really? Are you talking about mixed master out or are you talking
>about individual line out? If you are talking about individual line
>out, then what kit are you talking about? Which instrument? Are you
>saying that all the pieces (individual machines) in your kit come out
>of the output at the same level? WOW!

Not sure I like the tone of your message, but here goes:

If I have trx-BD assigned on individual output and track level of it
set to max, it will hit straight 0dB. If I change this to efm-BD,
track level set to max, it will hit straight to 0dB (and so on). If I
assing more tracks to same output, it surely can be overloaded.

The thing is that, digital audio inside the box can have any levels.
It is converted to voltages at DA-converter. Mainvolume-pot is wired
into DA, so that if the mainvolume is at max, internal mixsignal is
pretty close to 0 dB (when it comes put of the box). There can be
other situations, where da's can be overloaded or underloaded,
depending on how you configure your track levels.

The _point is_ that MD feeds strong enough signal, no doubt about it.
So when you were saying, you can't get hot signal enough, I was just
pointing out that you have something wrong with your other setup.
Propably the preamp thing, which I mentioned earlier post.

Toni. 


  
> "in 24 bit domain, its not so freaking important to have as hot
> signal as possible."
>  
> It is if you would like to take advantage of 24 bit recording. The
greater the dynamic range the more it is advantagous to record 24 bit.
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> tahvenaine2002 <toni.ahvenainen@p...> wrote:There is something wrong
here. I don't use micpres, but I do have rme
> hammerfall and record MD staright to it. Here are some observations:
> 
> 1. My MD makes very little noise. Yeah, about 89 -dB. So it's
> practically nothing. You can check this with digicheck, that came with
> your fireface. So no noise from MD. 
> 
> 2. MD is +4 dBu gear. You need to calibrate the firecafe to same
> levels. I have my hammerfall at +4 dBu. MD puts out very good signal;
> if I turn MD to full volume, I will hit exactly to 0 dB. So it can't
> be that MD does not provide output hot enough.
> 
> 3. Your problem might due the fact that mic-level is totally different
> than +4dBu or -10 dBu. So you maybe feeding the micpre too much
> signal, which will cause the noise. As with Andromeda, it might be -10
> dBu gear, in which situation you are still playing with two different
> signal levels, but not so much anymore. I would use the line
> level-compressor for both machines. (as for +4 and -10 dBu thing; the
> +4 is usually with progear and -10 is for consumer levels. +4 dBu
> loses less signal on its way. Also in the states they usually do +4
> gear, or something odd between.)
> 
> (4. in 24 bit domain, its not so freaking important to have as hot
> signal as possible. Anyway it's recomemded to keep things below -6
> anyway. In 16 bit world this was different. _but_ it's lot more
> practical to start mixing things if you have tracks recorded nicely
> and logically.)
> 
> 
> I hope these help you a bit. :)
> 
> Toni. 
> 
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "lucinniega" <lucinniega@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I just want to ask anybody who has recorded with a machine drum a 
> > question. If you have never recordeed the machine drum then please do 
> > not answer. In my studio I use a Demeter stereo tube direct into the 
> > inputs of the RME fireface 800. I meter in Samplitude to make sure 
> > that I go in as hot as possible to take full advantage of 24 bit 
> > recording as much as possible. I've noticed something. No matter how 
> > hot the sound coming out of the machine drum is, I always have noise. 
> > If the sound that I happen to be recording is low coming out of the 
> > machine drum the noise floor is even more apparent. I was wondering 
> > if this was a factory defect or if this is just the way that the 
> > machine is built. I've heard so many complaints on the net, but I 
> > can't really trust anybody who has an opinion like " It doesn't sound 
> > noisy to me.". I need to get an opinion from somebody who has done 
> > some extensive recording with the machine drum through a direct box, 
> > into a mic pre and into a DAW. I would only like to hear from you 
> > people, so I will be able to formulate a better insight. Do any of 
> > you people, with a similar setup to mine, experience the noise that 
> > I've been writing about. I just seems to me that the noise is almost 
> > unacceptable. I'm trying to determine if this problem is local to my 
> > machine drum or if it is just a characteristic of all machine drums. 
> > I am going to take my unit to a repair guy who is supposed to be 
> > pretty good at stuff like this. I will definatley keep you posted. By 
> > the way, Elektron was no help at all. They had the pass the buck 
> > mentality. That really pissed me off. I just want to get my machine 
> > fixed. I don't want to hear about who's responsability it is to get 
> > my machine fixed. I want to able to record without this hiss coming 
> > out of the outputs.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>     Visit your group "elektron-users" on the web.
>   
>     To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>   
>     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service. 

> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 		
> ---------------------------------
>  Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
" if the clips hit -6db then  
you're already using all available bits"

 

Is that right? Where did you get this information from? Is that when the metering is set to clip @ zero.


		
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 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Do you know what a front end is? Need I say more? (insert big words here.)

niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 11:08:28AM -0800, s a wrote:
>  
> Are you serious? Do you know what a direct box does? It changes the impedence of the incoming signal to mic level. Then the audio is fit to be passed through a mic pre for amplification. After which I will be able to reach a proper recording level. Only when the signal reaches a suitable level, does it become very apparent where the noise floor is. By the way, the noise floor can be monitored on my unit without any external amplification at all, through the headphones. It is a "white" like noise that exists on all outputs and the heaphone outs. I can monitor this noise at just above the half way point on the volume knob, and it only becomes more apparent as the knob is turned up. Could someone please check their unit out to see if it does the same thing? Please don't respond without actually checking it out. 
> 
>  I would like to get responses from people that have experience recording the machine drum through a front end such as a direct box and mic pre. It's seems that those people will know a little bit more about the recording process. 

s a,
we're trying to help
you discern what the problem is with your machinedrum's 
setup - one _no one else here has reported_.  to do this, we
need to know what you're doing, how you're doing it and yes,
occasionally _why_ you're doing it, especially when the
outputs of the machinedrum, unamplified and at line level,
are sufficiently hot to require compression on every +4db
interface that has been reported in use with it - this
includes the rme fireface 800, though i've also used the MD
with motu PCI devices, a digi-001 and a presonus
firestation.

if you want to reduce the line level signal to mic level,
and then into a mic pre, that's your business, but no
machinedrum i have ever played or recorded in the last two years has required this, and the machinedrum was not made with your setup in mind.  so, for the benefit of everyone involved, you need to perform basic troubleshooting tasks and record it as it's meant to be recorded, and move on from there.  reiterating my last email, if you have the same noise recording the MD at line level, then your experience is anomalous and possibly the result of a hardware defect - and you should press the issue with elektron.

finally, the headphone outs have been noisy on every unit
i've played at maximum volume.  the only noise i ever got
from the MD was a readily-redressed ground loop.


no amount of truculent, condescending and passive aggressive
bullshit on your end will change this.  so good luck with
that.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

signal path

David Davis <feline1@...> wrote:This guy is obviously a total wab LOL

"Impedance" of a *signal* ??
After reading that it was just laughs all the way LOL :)



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.feline1.co.uk

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "niall munnelly" <aleph@...>
To: <elektron-users@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [elektron] Only for people that have recorded with a machine drum through a 
front end


> On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 11:08:28AM -0800, s a wrote:
>>
>> Are you serious? Do you know what a direct box does? It changes the impedence of the 
>> incoming signal to mic level. Then the audio is fit to be passed through a mic pre for 
>> amplification. After which I will be able to reach a proper recording level. Only when 
>> the signal reaches a suitable level, does it become very apparent where the noise floor 
>> is. By the way, the noise floor can be monitored on my unit without any external 
>> amplification at all, through the headphones. It is a "white" like noise that exists on 
>> all outputs and the heaphone outs. I can monitor this noise at just above the half way 
>> point on the volume knob, and it only becomes more apparent as the knob is turned up. 
>> Could someone please check their unit out to see if it does the same thing? Please don't 
>> respond without actually checking it out.
>>
>>  I would like to get responses from people that have experience recording the machine 
>> drum through a front end such as a direct box and mic pre. It's seems that those people 
>> will know a little bit more about the recording process.
>
> s a,
> we're trying to help
> you discern what the problem is with your machinedrum's
> setup - one _no one else here has reported_.  to do this, we
> need to know what you're doing, how you're doing it and yes,
> occasionally _why_ you're doing it, especially when the
> outputs of the machinedrum, unamplified and at line level,
> are sufficiently hot to require compression on every +4db
> interface that has been reported in use with it - this
> includes the rme fireface 800, though i've also used the MD
> with motu PCI devices, a digi-001 and a presonus
> firestation.
>
> if you want to reduce the line level signal to mic level,
> and then into a mic pre, that's your business, but no
> machinedrum i have ever played or recorded in the last two years has required this, and 
> the machinedrum was not made with your setup in mind.  so, for the benefit of everyone 
> involved, you need to perform basic troubleshooting tasks and record it as it's meant to 
> be recorded, and move on from there.  reiterating my last email, if you have the same 
> noise recording the MD at line level, then your experience is anomalous and possibly the 
> result of a hardware defect - and you should press the issue with elektron.
>
> finally, the headphone outs have been noisy on every unit
> i've played at maximum volume.  the only noise i ever got
> from the MD was a readily-redressed ground loop.
>
>
> no amount of truculent, condescending and passive aggressive
> bullshit on your end will change this.  so good luck with
> that.
>
> -- 
> yours,
> niall.
> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
> aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
> http://syncretism.net
> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> 



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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 05:41:05PM -0800, s a wrote:
> Do you know what a front end is? Need I say more? (insert big words here.)

yup, and with that, i'll leave you to make your lips 
acquainted with my rear one, after you've extracted
your head from your own.

good luck troubleshooting that phantom noise problem, ese.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

S A - It is obvious that you aren't using the right equipment - get an
"audio magic clairvoyant power cord", and it will clean up your signal right
away
 http://www.ilikejam.dsl.pipex.com/audiophile.htm
 And while you're at it, pick up some ultratweeters too (see link above).
 By the way, your posts have been hostile beyond belief from the get-go...
I'm amazed that anybody tried to help you. Next time I need help here,
I'm going to try your tactics and demand that only people with a Ph.D. in a
hard-science respond to my questions. Or, maybe only people in my
tax - bracket. Because, obviously only these people would be worth listening
to.
 -gerald
 On 11/8/05, s a <lucinniega@...> wrote:
>
> Do you know what a front end is? Need I say more? (insert big words here.)
>
> niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at
> 11:08:28AM -0800, s a wrote:
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Toni,
 
Sometimes I will program an instrument that ends up being pretty quiet, due to the filter. That's when I notice the noise the most. To tell you the truth it harder to recognize the noise on the bass drum. The reason being is that the bass drum is probably the loudest sound coming out of the machine drum. 
 
     Mainvolume-pot is wired
into DA, so that if the mainvolume is at max, internal mixsignal is
pretty close to 0 dB (when it comes put of the box). 
 
This is definatley not the case with my MD. At max volume There are still some instruments in my kit that are quiet.
 
So I think maybe the DA converter is being underloaded, probably because of the filter. Is this what you were talking about when it comes to underloading the filter. If not, what else could be the source of the problem.
 
Sorry for the attitude, I'm just a bit frustrated with my recording situation. I usually try to be the guy that doesn't come off like a dick. I appreciate the time that you have taken to respond to my post.
 
Sergio

tahvenaine2002 <toni.ahvenainen@...> wrote:
Answers below...

> "I have my hammerfall at +4 dBu. MD puts out very good signal;
> if I turn MD to full volume, I will hit exactly to 0 dB."
>  
> Oh really? Are you talking about mixed master out or are you talking
>about individual line out? If you are talking about individual line
>out, then what kit are you talking about? Which instrument? Are you
>saying that all the pieces (individual machines) in your kit come out
>of the output at the same level? WOW!

Not sure I like the tone of your message, but here goes:

If I have trx-BD assigned on individual output and track level of it
set to max, it will hit straight 0dB. If I change this to efm-BD,
track level set to max, it will hit straight to 0dB (and so on). If I
assing more tracks to same output, it surely can be overloaded.

The thing is that, digital audio inside the box can have any levels.
It is converted to voltages at DA-converter. Mainvolume-pot is wired
into DA, so that if the mainvolume is at max, internal mixsignal is
pretty close to 0 dB (when it comes put of the box). There can be
other situations, where da's can be overloaded or underloaded,
depending on how you configure your track levels.

The _point is_ that MD feeds strong enough signal, no doubt about it.
So when you were saying, you can't get hot signal enough, I was just
pointing out that you have something wrong with your other setup.
Propably the preamp thing, which I mentioned earlier post.

Toni. 


  
> "in 24 bit domain, its not so freaking important to have as hot
> signal as possible."
>  
> It is if you would like to take advantage of 24 bit recording. The
greater the dynamic range the more it is advantagous to record 24 bit.
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> tahvenaine2002 <toni.ahvenainen@p...> wrote:There is something wrong
here. I don't use micpres, but I do have rme
> hammerfall and record MD staright to it. Here are some observations:
> 
> 1. My MD makes very little noise. Yeah, about 89 -dB. So it's
> practically nothing. You can check this with digicheck, that came with
> your fireface. So no noise from MD. 
> 
> 2. MD is +4 dBu gear. You need to calibrate the firecafe to same
> levels. I have my hammerfall at +4 dBu. MD puts out very good signal;
> if I turn MD to full volume, I will hit exactly to 0 dB. So it can't
> be that MD does not provide output hot enough.
> 
> 3. Your problem might due the fact that mic-level is totally different
> than +4dBu or -10 dBu. So you maybe feeding the micpre too much
> signal, which will cause the noise. As with Andromeda, it might be -10
> dBu gear, in which situation you are still playing with two different
> signal levels, but not so much anymore. I would use the line
> level-compressor for both machines. (as for +4 and -10 dBu thing; the
> +4 is usually with progear and -10 is for consumer levels. +4 dBu
> loses less signal on its way. Also in the states they usually do +4
> gear, or something odd between.)
> 
> (4. in 24 bit domain, its not so freaking important to have as hot
> signal as possible. Anyway it's recomemded to keep things below -6
> anyway. In 16 bit world this was different. _but_ it's lot more
> practical to start mixing things if you have tracks recorded nicely
> and logically.)
> 
> 
> I hope these help you a bit. :)
> 
> Toni. 
> 
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "lucinniega" <lucinniega@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I just want to ask anybody who has recorded with a machine drum a 
> > question. If you have never recordeed the machine drum then please do 
> > not answer. In my studio I use a Demeter stereo tube direct into the 
> > inputs of the RME fireface 800. I meter in Samplitude to make sure 
> > that I go in as hot as possible to take full advantage of 24 bit 
> > recording as much as possible. I've noticed something. No matter how 
> > hot the sound coming out of the machine drum is, I always have noise. 
> > If the sound that I happen to be recording is low coming out of the 
> > machine drum the noise floor is even more apparent. I was wondering 
> > if this was a factory defect or if this is just the way that the 
> > machine is built. I've heard so many complaints on the net, but I 
> > can't really trust anybody who has an opinion like " It doesn't sound 
> > noisy to me.". I need to get an opinion from somebody who has done 
> > some extensive recording with the machine drum through a direct box, 
> > into a mic pre and into a DAW. I would only like to hear from you 
> > people, so I will be able to formulate a better insight. Do any of 
> > you people, with a similar setup to mine, experience the noise that 
> > I've been writing about. I just seems to me that the noise is almost 
> > unacceptable. I'm trying to determine if this problem is local to my 
> > machine drum or if it is just a characteristic of all machine drums. 
> > I am going to take my unit to a repair guy who is supposed to be 
> > pretty good at stuff like this. I will definatley keep you posted. By 
> > the way, Elektron was no help at all. They had the pass the buck 
> > mentality. That really pissed me off. I just want to get my machine 
> > fixed. I don't want to hear about who's responsability it is to get 
> > my machine fixed. I want to able to record without this hiss coming 
> > out of the outputs.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry, but I wanted to get a perspective from somebody who has a recording situation similar to mine. I don't beleive that I'm the only one recording into a direct box. I don't think that recording through a direct box is something that can't be done with the machine drum. I didn't demand anything, It was a request.  

Gerald Stevens <logo64@...> wrote:S A - It is obvious that you aren't using the right equipment - get an
"audio magic clairvoyant power cord", and it will clean up your signal right
away
http://www.ilikejam.dsl.pipex.com/audiophile.htm
And while you're at it, pick up some ultratweeters too (see link above).
By the way, your posts have been hostile beyond belief from the get-go...
I'm amazed that anybody tried to help you. Next time I need help here,
I'm going to try your tactics and demand that only people with a Ph.D. in a
hard-science respond to my questions. Or, maybe only people in my
tax - bracket. Because, obviously only these people would be worth listening
to.
-gerald
On 11/8/05, s a <lucinniega@...> wrote:
>
> Do you know what a front end is? Need I say more? (insert big words here.)
>
> niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at
> 11:08:28AM -0800, s a wrote:
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sergio - the only problem with your recording set-up is your
own ludicrously wrong misunderstandings of how your equipment
works, which, combined with your obnoxious attitude, is, I fear,
giving you the recording quality you deserve ;-)

May I recommend http://www.soundonsound.com as an excellent
source of info?

-- 
David Davis
Technical Author
Codefarm Software Ltd.
Tower Point, 44 North Road, BRIGHTON, BN1 1YR, UK
tel: +44 (0)1273 666350   fax: +44 (0)1273 666351
http://www.codefarm.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "s a" <lucinniega@...>
To: <elektron-users@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 4:13 AM
Subject: Re: [elektron] Only for people that have recorded with a machine 
drum through a front end

>     Sorry, but I wanted to get a perspective from somebody who has a 
> recording situation similar to mine. I don't beleive that I'm the only one 
> recording into a direct box. I don't think that recording through a direct 
> box is something that can't be done with the machine drum. I didn't demand 
> anything, It was a request.
>
> Gerald Stevens <logo64@...> wrote:S A - It is obvious that you 
> aren't using the right equipment - get an
> "audio magic clairvoyant power cord", and it will clean up your signal 
> right
> away
> http://www.ilikejam.dsl.pipex.com/audiophile.htm
> And while you're at it, pick up some ultratweeters too (see link above).
> By the way, your posts have been hostile beyond belief from the get-go...
> I'm amazed that anybody tried to help you. Next time I need help here,
> I'm going to try your tactics and demand that only people with a Ph.D. in 
> a
> hard-science respond to my questions. Or, maybe only people in my
> tax - bracket. Because, obviously only these people would be worth 
> listening
> to.
> -gerald
> On 11/8/05, s a <lucinniega@...> wrote:
>>
>> Do you know what a front end is? Need I say more? (insert big words 
>> here.)
>>
>> niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at
>> 11:08:28AM -0800, s a wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Music instruments Musical instruments Instrument music online store Music 
> instrument sale Kid music instrument Child music instrument
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>    Visit your group "elektron-users" on the web.
>
>    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
> " if the clips hit -6db then
> you're already using all available bits"
>
>
>
> Is that right? Where did you get this information from? Is that  
> when the metering is set to clip @ zero.


It's maths, simply.
Every bit of resolution gives you 6db more of dynamic range, so when  
the peaks hit -6db you're already using all available bits.

24bit= 144db
16bit= 96db

Keep in mind that there are no converters that will give you 144db of  
dynamic range - best ones top near 120db.

All the above is true with PPM metering clipping at 0db (which is  
what every daw has).

hey federico, just curious which pre amps will give you 120 db from the MD
or MnM i have a soun card that can accept that but most of my pres get about
100.
 thanks
 ohh and fuck you if you dont tell me(please read saarcastically)

 On 11/9/05, Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
> > " if the clips hit -6db then
> > you're already using all available bits"
> >
> >
> >
> > Is that right? Where did you get this information from? Is that
> > when the metering is set to clip @ zero.
>
>
> It's maths, simply.
> Every bit of resolution gives you 6db more of dynamic range, so when
> the peaks hit -6db you're already using all available bits.
>
> 24bit= 144db
> 16bit= 96db
>
> Keep in mind that there are no converters that will give you 144db of
> dynamic range - best ones top near 120db.
>
> All the above is true with PPM metering clipping at 0db (which is
> what every daw has).
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>   Music instruments<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Music+instruments&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=CPlCbIMlTBJyhM8YiZ8Fvw> Musical
> instruments<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Musical+instruments&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=THp9Wm47KE0zY9wTC3_JfQ> Instrument
> music online store<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Instrument+music+online+store&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=pxHjyToD8bHIfE6nz-lncg>  Music
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> music instrument<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Kid+music+instrument&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=wR7C0FQmEkr8-z1JNMIKkQ> Child
> music instrument<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Child+music+instrument&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=VYARSWssb0_klvDK2QKomQ>
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>    - Visit your group "elektron-users<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elektron-users>"
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

See answers below...

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, s a <lucinniega@y...> wrote:
> Sometimes I will program an instrument that ends up being pretty
>quiet, due to the filter. That's when I notice the noise the most. To
>tell you the truth it harder to recognize the noise on the bass drum.
>The reason being is that the bass drum is probably the loudest sound
>coming out of the machine drum. 

Yes this is normal. I dont use the max levels all the time. depends
really on what i'm programming and how much dynamics I'm searching
from my beats. This shoudn't be a problem.

 
>      Mainvolume-pot is wired
> into DA, so that if the mainvolume is at max, internal mixsignal is
> pretty close to 0 dB (when it comes put of the box). 
>  
> This is definatley not the case with my MD. At max volume There are
> still some instruments in my kit that are quiet.

Yes, something like hihats are lower level. Thats normal too. I mean
that when you have volume set to max, you should be able to have 0dB
signal out of the box (if you choose to). 


> So I think maybe the DA converter is being underloaded, probably
>because of the filter. Is this what you were talking about when it
>comes to underloading the filter. If not, what else could be the
>source of the problem.

Are you talking about filter of MD or something external here? 

Here is how I would try to solve this:

1. Check your fireface that its calibrated to +4 dBu. If I remember
from brochures, you can do this strainght from control panel. Just
check it. Sure is surely sure.

2. Forget the micpre for a while. Do this test without it. 

3. Connect the MD main line out to fireface _line ins_. I know
fireface also have some micpres (or does it?), but for know connect it
to line ins. 

4. Turn MD volume to max and record few patterns. Also try setting the
BD (for example) to maximum, for checking out levels. 

5. You should get recordings that should peak somewhere around 0 - -6
dBs. The BD, if you miximized it, at least should. 

6. You can also now try to spot the noise. Record the MD without it
playing anything, so you would be recording just noise, that MD makes.
This should be around -90 dB, _if you dont have_ any grounding
problems with your electricity. If you have noise at -90 dB it will
_not_ be a problem of anykind, with any situtation. Your normal
cd-player probaply puts out more noise than MD.

If you have done this test, you should now see, that MD puts out
signal as it should (if test went ok). So if the MD is ok, you have to
accept that the problem lies in the micpre. The thing with micpres is
this:

When audio goes throught the cable, its converted to voltages. A
typical +4 dB signal can carry 0.775 volts maximum (0dB in digital
domain). -10 dB signal will carry something like half or third of
that. Now the micpre signal-in is calibrated for signal levels like
0.005 - 0.01 volts. When you hit the 0.775 volts to micpre it's going
to clip a lot and bring the noise up, so much that even -90 dB noise
signal comes alive. So I think your problem is feeding the wrong level
signal to micpre. With andromeda this may work, because it might be a
-10 dB gear (so it doesn't bring the noise so much up, but technically
still is wrong).

So if this is the case, you should consider what to do with the
micpre. It can't be used to record MD and its not the fault of MD or
micpre either. 

I can't think of anything other that could be the problem (still there
might be something else too). I've given my cents here.

  
> Sorry for the attitude, I'm just a bit frustrated with my recording
>situation. I usually try to be the guy that doesn't come off like a
>dick. I appreciate the time that you have taken to respond to my >post.

Apologies accepted.

Toni.

I run my MDrum outs threw a piece of string and dixie cups....
A bit of noise can be heard when I crank the volume, ARGHH!!

I have notified Elektron about this, but those bastards dont care about my setup, I'll be returning my MDrum ASAP until they provide better support for my live setup....

I Really wish they would offer better support for un-orthodox setups like my cup solution. I just feel dixie cups offer that tru analog sound that only a pro like myself can enjoy...

just my 2 cents....

-JC

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Josh Watson 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] Only for people that have recorded with a machine drum through a front end


  hey federico, just curious which pre amps will give you 120 db from the MD
  or MnM i have a soun card that can accept that but most of my pres get about
  100.
  thanks
  ohh and fuck you if you dont tell me(please read saarcastically)

  On 11/9/05, Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
  >
  > >
  > > Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
  > > " if the clips hit -6db then
  > > you're already using all available bits"
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Is that right? Where did you get this information from? Is that
  > > when the metering is set to clip @ zero.
  >
  >
  > It's maths, simply.
  > Every bit of resolution gives you 6db more of dynamic range, so when
  > the peaks hit -6db you're already using all available bits.
  >
  > 24bit= 144db
  > 16bit= 96db
  >
  > Keep in mind that there are no converters that will give you 144db of
  > dynamic range - best ones top near 120db.
  >
  > All the above is true with PPM metering clipping at 0db (which is
  > what every daw has).
  >
  >
  > SPONSORED LINKS
  >   Music instruments<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Music+instruments&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=CPlCbIMlTBJyhM8YiZ8Fvw> Musical
  > instruments<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Musical+instruments&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=THp9Wm47KE0zY9wTC3_JfQ> Instrument
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  >  ------------------------------
  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
  >
  >
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  >    on the web.
  >     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >    elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
  >     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
  >    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
  >
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  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lol

I wasn't talking about preamps and obtaining 120db on analog outputs,  
but about the resolution of the A/D and D/A converters on sound cards.
recording at 24 bits gives you 144db of theoretical dynamic range,  
but it's more than the analog domain is capable of, and, in real  
world, most converters give you 100-110 db.



Il giorno 09/nov/05, alle ore 16:08, Josh Watson ha scritto:

> hey federico, just curious which pre amps will give you 120 db from  
> the MD
> or MnM i have a soun card that can accept that but most of my pres  
> get about
> 100.
>  thanks
>  ohh and fuck you if you dont tell me(please read saarcastically)

That makes a lot of sence. 
 
Thank you,
Sergio

Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
>
> Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
> " if the clips hit -6db then
> you're already using all available bits"
>
>
>
> Is that right? Where did you get this information from? Is that  
> when the metering is set to clip @ zero.


It's maths, simply.
Every bit of resolution gives you 6db more of dynamic range, so when  
the peaks hit -6db you're already using all available bits.

24bit= 144db
16bit= 96db

Keep in mind that there are no converters that will give you 144db of  
dynamic range - best ones top near 120db.

All the above is true with PPM metering clipping at 0db (which is  
what every daw has).


SPONSORED LINKS 
Music instruments Musical instruments Instrument music online store Music instrument sale Kid music instrument Child music instrument 

---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 


    Visit your group "elektron-users" on the web.
  
    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
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---------------------------------



		
---------------------------------
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Toni,
 
  Thanks for the very informative response. 
 
"
6. You can also now try to spot the noise. Record the MD without it
playing anything, so you would be recording just noise, that MD makes.
This should be around -90 dB, _if you dont have_ any grounding
problems with your electricity. If you have noise at -90 dB it will
_not_ be a problem of anykind, with any situtation."
 
That sounds like exactly what I am looking for, a comparative test. I will record the noise at max volume and see what kind of levels I get.
 
" So I think your problem is feeding the wrong level
signal to micpre."
 
I don't go straight in to the mic pre. I first go through the Demeter direct box. From there the signal goes out of the Demeter at mic level and in to the RME. What, in your opinon, is wrong with recording this way?
 
     Thank you,
     Sergio


tahvenaine2002 <toni.ahvenainen@...> wrote:See answers below...

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, s a <lucinniega@y...> wrote:
> Sometimes I will program an instrument that ends up being pretty
>quiet, due to the filter. That's when I notice the noise the most. To
>tell you the truth it harder to recognize the noise on the bass drum.
>The reason being is that the bass drum is probably the loudest sound
>coming out of the machine drum. 

Yes this is normal. I dont use the max levels all the time. depends
really on what i'm programming and how much dynamics I'm searching
from my beats. This shoudn't be a problem.


>      Mainvolume-pot is wired
> into DA, so that if the mainvolume is at max, internal mixsignal is
> pretty close to 0 dB (when it comes put of the box). 
>  
> This is definatley not the case with my MD. At max volume There are
> still some instruments in my kit that are quiet.

Yes, something like hihats are lower level. Thats normal too. I mean
that when you have volume set to max, you should be able to have 0dB
signal out of the box (if you choose to). 


> So I think maybe the DA converter is being underloaded, probably
>because of the filter. Is this what you were talking about when it
>comes to underloading the filter. If not, what else could be the
>source of the problem.

Are you talking about filter of MD or something external here? 

Here is how I would try to solve this:

1. Check your fireface that its calibrated to +4 dBu. If I remember
from brochures, you can do this strainght from control panel. Just
check it. Sure is surely sure.

2. Forget the micpre for a while. Do this test without it. 

3. Connect the MD main line out to fireface _line ins_. I know
fireface also have some micpres (or does it?), but for know connect it
to line ins. 

4. Turn MD volume to max and record few patterns. Also try setting the
BD (for example) to maximum, for checking out levels. 

5. You should get recordings that should peak somewhere around 0 - -6
dBs. The BD, if you miximized it, at least should. 

6. You can also now try to spot the noise. Record the MD without it
playing anything, so you would be recording just noise, that MD makes.
This should be around -90 dB, _if you dont have_ any grounding
problems with your electricity. If you have noise at -90 dB it will
_not_ be a problem of anykind, with any situtation. Your normal
cd-player probaply puts out more noise than MD.

If you have done this test, you should now see, that MD puts out
signal as it should (if test went ok). So if the MD is ok, you have to
accept that the problem lies in the micpre. The thing with micpres is
this:

When audio goes throught the cable, its converted to voltages. A
typical +4 dB signal can carry 0.775 volts maximum (0dB in digital
domain). -10 dB signal will carry something like half or third of
that. Now the micpre signal-in is calibrated for signal levels like
0.005 - 0.01 volts. When you hit the 0.775 volts to micpre it's going
to clip a lot and bring the noise up, so much that even -90 dB noise
signal comes alive. So I think your problem is feeding the wrong level
signal to micpre. With andromeda this may work, because it might be a
-10 dB gear (so it doesn't bring the noise so much up, but technically
still is wrong).

So if this is the case, you should consider what to do with the
micpre. It can't be used to record MD and its not the fault of MD or
micpre either. 

I can't think of anything other that could be the problem (still there
might be something else too). I've given my cents here.

  
> Sorry for the attitude, I'm just a bit frustrated with my recording
>situation. I usually try to be the guy that doesn't come off like a
>dick. I appreciate the time that you have taken to respond to my >post.

Apologies accepted.

Toni.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i KNOW HOW YOU FEEL.

Jesse <jesse@...> wrote:I run my MDrum outs threw a piece of string and dixie cups....
A bit of noise can be heard when I crank the volume, ARGHH!!

I have notified Elektron about this, but those bastards dont care about my setup, I'll be returning my MDrum ASAP until they provide better support for my live setup....

I Really wish they would offer better support for un-orthodox setups like my cup solution. I just feel dixie cups offer that tru analog sound that only a pro like myself can enjoy...

just my 2 cents....

-JC

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Josh Watson 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] Only for people that have recorded with a machine drum through a front end


  hey federico, just curious which pre amps will give you 120 db from the MD
  or MnM i have a soun card that can accept that but most of my pres get about
  100.
  thanks
  ohh and fuck you if you dont tell me(please read saarcastically)

  On 11/9/05, Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
  >
  > >
  > > Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
  > > " if the clips hit -6db then
  > > you're already using all available bits"
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Is that right? Where did you get this information from? Is that
  > > when the metering is set to clip @ zero.
  >
  >
  > It's maths, simply.
  > Every bit of resolution gives you 6db more of dynamic range, so when
  > the peaks hit -6db you're already using all available bits.
  >
  > 24bit= 144db
  > 16bit= 96db
  >
  > Keep in mind that there are no converters that will give you 144db of
  > dynamic range - best ones top near 120db.
  >
  > All the above is true with PPM metering clipping at 0db (which is
  > what every daw has).
  >
  >
  > SPONSORED LINKS
  >   Music instruments<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Music+instruments&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=CPlCbIMlTBJyhM8YiZ8Fvw> Musical
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  > music instrument<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Child+music+instrument&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=VYARSWssb0_klvDK2QKomQ>
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  >    on the web.
  >     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >    elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
  >     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I don't go straight in to the mic pre. I first go through the
Demeter >direct box. From there the signal goes out of the Demeter at
mic level >and in to the RME. What, in your opinon, is wrong with
recording this >way?
>  
Sorry I didn't know you go through di-box. I'm not familiar with those
things, so I better shut my mouth on this.. Maybe someone else can say
something..

Toni.

I'm glad to hear that someone else had trouble with the dixie cups ...  
for a moment i thought i was doing something wrong... but now i have  
realized that it actually is a design fault of the MD i have called  
Fedex to come and collect my MD and return it to Elektron...

thanx for that...

rui

On 9 Nov 2005, at 16:33, Jesse wrote:

> I run my MDrum outs threw a piece of string and dixie cups....
> A bit of noise can be heard when I crank the volume, ARGHH!!
>
> I have notified Elektron about this, but those bastards dont care  
> about my setup, I'll be returning my MDrum ASAP until they provide  
> better support for my live setup....
>
> I Really wish they would offer better support for un-orthodox setups  
> like my cup solution. I just feel dixie cups offer that tru analog  
> sound that only a pro like myself can enjoy...
>
> just my 2 cents....
>
> -JC
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Josh Watson
>   To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:08 AM
>   Subject: Re: [elektron] Only for people that have recorded with a  
> machine drum through a front end
>
>
>   hey federico, just curious which pre amps will give you 120 db from  
> the MD
>   or MnM i have a soun card that can accept that but most of my pres  
> get about
>   100.
>   thanks
>   ohh and fuck you if you dont tell me(please read saarcastically)
>
>   On 11/9/05, Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@...> wrote:
>>> " if the clips hit -6db then
>>> you're already using all available bits"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is that right? Where did you get this information from? Is that
>>> when the metering is set to clip @ zero.
>>
>>
>> It's maths, simply.
>> Every bit of resolution gives you 6db more of dynamic range, so when
>> the peaks hit -6db you're already using all available bits.
>>
>> 24bit= 144db
>> 16bit= 96db
>>
>> Keep in mind that there are no converters that will give you 144db of
>> dynamic range - best ones top near 120db.
>>
>> All the above is true with PPM metering clipping at 0db (which is
>> what every daw has).
>>
>>
>> SPONSORED LINKS
>>   Music  
>> instruments<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? 
>> t=ms&k=Music+instruments&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments&w 
>> 3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+music+ 
>> instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=CPlCbIMlTBJyhM8YiZ 
>> 8Fvw> Musical
>> instruments<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? 
>> t=ms&k=Musical+instruments&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instruments 
>> &w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+musi 
>> c+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=THp9Wm47KE0zY9wT 
>> C3_JfQ> Instrument
>> music online  
>> store<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? 
>> t=ms&k=Instrument+music+online+store&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+i 
>> nstruments&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w 
>> 5=Kid+music+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=pxHjyT 
>> oD8bHIfE6nz-lncg>  Music
>> instrument  
>> sale<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? 
>> t=ms&k=Music+instrument+sale&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instrumen 
>> ts&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+mu 
>> sic+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=DzdvZm3CVr8YCS 
>> wDpEkB2g> Kid
>> music  
>> instrument<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? 
>> t=ms&k=Kid+music+instrument&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instrument 
>> s&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+mus 
>> ic+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=wR7C0FQmEkr8- 
>> z1JNMIKkQ> Child
>> music  
>> instrument<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? 
>> t=ms&k=Child+music+instrument&w1=Music+instruments&w2=Musical+instrume 
>> nts&w3=Instrument+music+online+store&w4=Music+instrument+sale&w5=Kid+m 
>> usic+instrument&w6=Child+music+instrument&c=6&s=164&.sig=VYARSWssb0_kl 
>> vDK2QKomQ>
>>  ------------------------------
>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>
>>
>>    - Visit your group  
>> "elektron-users<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elektron-users>"
>>    on the web.
>>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>     
>> elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<elektron-users- 
>> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> -------
>   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     a..  Visit your group "elektron-users" on the web.
>
>     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  
> Service.
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> -------
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 09:39:40PM -0000, tahvenaine2002 wrote:
> 
> Sorry I didn't know you go through di-box. I'm not familiar with those
> things, so I better shut my mouth on this.. Maybe someone else can say
> something..

they reduce a line-level, high impedance signal to a
mic-level, low impedance one that's suitable to drive a
microphone input.  this is fine if you're doing it because
you like a specific coloration the mic pre {or di box, if
it's an active one} lends to the sound.  if you're doing it
BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR MACHINEDRUM'S OWN OUTS AREN'T LOUD ENOUGH, then a}
your equipment is broken or misconfigured or b} you don't
know what the hell you're doing, but we must also accept the
possibility of c} both.

sorry for shouting.  i'm not shouting at you, toni.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

niall munnelly wrote:
> <SNIPPY>
> if you're doing it
> BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR MACHINEDRUM'S OWN OUTS AREN'T LOUD ENOUGH, then a}
> your equipment is broken or misconfigured or b} you don't
> know what the hell you're doing, but we must also accept the
> possibility of c} both.
>
>   
Some pres only accept mic level ins.  While I can't think of any off the 
top of my head, I'm sure they're out there.
Maybe that's the problem, get a more capable pre and you can avoid the 
DI box altogether.

Take care,
Des

On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 05:18:50PM -0500, Desdinova wrote:
> niall munnelly wrote:
> > <SNIPPY>
> > if you're doing it
> > BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR MACHINEDRUM'S OWN OUTS AREN'T LOUD ENOUGH, then a}
> > your equipment is broken or misconfigured or b} you don't
> > know what the hell you're doing, but we must also accept the
> > possibility of c} both.
> >
> >   
> Some pres only accept mic level ins.  While I can't think of any off the 
> top of my head, I'm sure they're out there.
> Maybe that's the problem, get a more capable pre and you can avoid the 
> DI box altogether.

sure, but,
if one's troubleshooting noise from an instrument, one
should skip the mic pres altogether and record directly into
an instrument-level input, and the fireface has 8 of those
built in.  until this is done, there's simply no way to
troubleshoot the problem accurately, and it doesn't matter
if you like the disastrous sound of a +4dbv, line level
plugged {directly or indirectly} into a mic pre or not.


-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

Why the hell is he trying to plug a drum machine into a microphone 
input?!? Is the Elektron Machine Drum a microphone?!??! No! It is not!

This is like saying "after I break my dog's legs so it can fit into a shoe box, 
it can't run very fast".  -- I ask you: WHY DO YOU WANT TO FIT YOUR 
DOG INTO A SHOE BOX??? 
What? You don't have a kennel?!? BUY A DAMN KENNEL! DUH!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.feline1.co.uk
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "niall munnelly" <aleph@...>
To: <elektron-users@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [elektron] Re: Only for people that have recorded with a machine drum.


> On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 09:39:40PM -0000, tahvenaine2002 wrote:
>> 
>> Sorry I didn't know you go through di-box. I'm not familiar with those
>> things, so I better shut my mouth on this.. Maybe someone else can say
>> something..
> 
> they reduce a line-level, high impedance signal to a
> mic-level, low impedance one that's suitable to drive a
> microphone input.  this is fine if you're doing it because
> you like a specific coloration the mic pre {or di box, if
> it's an active one} lends to the sound.  if you're doing it
> BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR MACHINEDRUM'S OWN OUTS AREN'T LOUD ENOUGH, then a}
> your equipment is broken or misconfigured or b} you don't
> know what the hell you're doing, but we must also accept the
> possibility of c} both.
> 
> sorry for shouting.  i'm not shouting at you, toni.
> 
> -- 
> yours,
> niall.
> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
> aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
> http://syncretism.net
> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

David Davis wrote:
> Why the hell is he trying to plug a drum machine into a microphone 
> input?!? Is the Elektron Machine Drum a microphone?!??! No! It is not!
>
> This is like saying "after I break my dog's legs so it can fit into a shoe box, 
> it can't run very fast".  -- I ask you: WHY DO YOU WANT TO FIT YOUR 
> DOG INTO A SHOE BOX??? 
> What? You don't have a kennel?!? BUY A DAMN KENNEL! DUH!
>   

It's to colour the sound.  I use a tube pre, myself.  Mine can take line 
level inputs handily, though.

Take care,
Des

I think he clearly stated he did not want anyone to reply who is not trying to setup the MDrum the same as his setup... keep your snide comments 2 yourself guys!!

I for one know a man who lives deep in the forest who runs all his equipment through mic pre-s, hopefully my letter will get to him in time, the pigeon left a few days ago, i fear for his life...

keep em comin, im having a good laugh!!

-JC

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Davis 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 6:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] Re: Only for people that have recorded with a machine drum.


  Why the hell is he trying to plug a drum machine into a microphone 
  input?!? Is the Elektron Machine Drum a microphone?!??! No! It is not!

  This is like saying "after I break my dog's legs so it can fit into a shoe box, 
  it can't run very fast".  -- I ask you: WHY DO YOU WANT TO FIT YOUR 
  DOG INTO A SHOE BOX??? 
  What? You don't have a kennel?!? BUY A DAMN KENNEL! DUH!

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  http://www.feline1.co.uk
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "niall munnelly" <aleph@...>
  To: <elektron-users@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] Re: Only for people that have recorded with a machine drum.


  > On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 09:39:40PM -0000, tahvenaine2002 wrote:
  >> 
  >> Sorry I didn't know you go through di-box. I'm not familiar with those
  >> things, so I better shut my mouth on this.. Maybe someone else can say
  >> something..
  > 
  > they reduce a line-level, high impedance signal to a
  > mic-level, low impedance one that's suitable to drive a
  > microphone input.  this is fine if you're doing it because
  > you like a specific coloration the mic pre {or di box, if
  > it's an active one} lends to the sound.  if you're doing it
  > BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR MACHINEDRUM'S OWN OUTS AREN'T LOUD ENOUGH, then a}
  > your equipment is broken or misconfigured or b} you don't
  > know what the hell you're doing, but we must also accept the
  > possibility of c} both.
  > 
  > sorry for shouting.  i'm not shouting at you, toni.
  > 
  > -- 
  > yours,
  > niall.
  > .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
  > aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
  > http://syncretism.net
  > .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ANSWER: C

niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 09:39:40PM -0000, tahvenaine2002 wrote:
> 
> Sorry I didn't know you go through di-box. I'm not familiar with those
> things, so I better shut my mouth on this.. Maybe someone else can say
> something..

they reduce a line-level, high impedance signal to a
mic-level, low impedance one that's suitable to drive a
microphone input.  this is fine if you're doing it because
you like a specific coloration the mic pre {or di box, if
it's an active one} lends to the sound.  if you're doing it
BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR MACHINEDRUM'S OWN OUTS AREN'T LOUD ENOUGH, then a}
your equipment is broken or misconfigured or b} you don't
know what the hell you're doing, but we must also accept the
possibility of c} both.

sorry for shouting.  i'm not shouting at you, toni.

-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..


---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 


    Visit your group "elektron-users" on the web.
  
    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was thinking about that. Believe me, I don't think that the fireface has great pres so I was considering a grace or an earthworks. I definatley want to use the Demeter though. It's good for rounding out the rough edges.

Desdinova <soupforare@...> wrote:niall munnelly wrote:
> <SNIPPY>
> if you're doing it
> BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR MACHINEDRUM'S OWN OUTS AREN'T LOUD ENOUGH, then a}
> your equipment is broken or misconfigured or b} you don't
> know what the hell you're doing, but we must also accept the
> possibility of c} both.
>
>   
Some pres only accept mic level ins.  While I can't think of any off the 
top of my head, I'm sure they're out there.
Maybe that's the problem, get a more capable pre and you can avoid the 
DI box altogether.

Take care,
Des


SPONSORED LINKS 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I never said that I'm plugging the MD directly into a microphone input. Its going through a DI first and then in to a mic pre. 

David Davis <feline1@...> wrote:Why the hell is he trying to plug a drum machine into a microphone 
input?!? Is the Elektron Machine Drum a microphone?!??! No! It is not!

This is like saying "after I break my dog's legs so it can fit into a shoe box, 
it can't run very fast".  -- I ask you: WHY DO YOU WANT TO FIT YOUR 
DOG INTO A SHOE BOX??? 
What? You don't have a kennel?!? BUY A DAMN KENNEL! DUH!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.feline1.co.uk

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "niall munnelly" <aleph@...>
To: <elektron-users@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [elektron] Re: Only for people that have recorded with a machine drum.


> On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 09:39:40PM -0000, tahvenaine2002 wrote:
>> 
>> Sorry I didn't know you go through di-box. I'm not familiar with those
>> things, so I better shut my mouth on this.. Maybe someone else can say
>> something..
> 
> they reduce a line-level, high impedance signal to a
> mic-level, low impedance one that's suitable to drive a
> microphone input.  this is fine if you're doing it because
> you like a specific coloration the mic pre {or di box, if
> it's an active one} lends to the sound.  if you're doing it
> BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR MACHINEDRUM'S OWN OUTS AREN'T LOUD ENOUGH, then a}
> your equipment is broken or misconfigured or b} you don't
> know what the hell you're doing, but we must also accept the
> possibility of c} both.
> 
> sorry for shouting.  i'm not shouting at you, toni.
> 
> -- 
> yours,
> niall.
> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
> aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
> http://syncretism.net
> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mine will take line level as well. It will also output unity or mic level. The problem is, I seem to be getting a lot of noise with the MD at max level. However. I was not aware that I would still be recording a full 24bits at -6 db. I will check the noise level at -6db running straight to the RME. Hopefully this will lead to a workable solution. I think part of the problem is an insufficient signal getting to the D/A because of the way that the instrument was programmed (very quiet). This combined with a slightly noisy output would increase the level of the noise floor at the appropriate recording level.

Desdinova <soupforare@...> wrote:David Davis wrote:
> Why the hell is he trying to plug a drum machine into a microphone 
> input?!? Is the Elektron Machine Drum a microphone?!??! No! It is not!
>
> This is like saying "after I break my dog's legs so it can fit into a shoe box, 
> it can't run very fast".  -- I ask you: WHY DO YOU WANT TO FIT YOUR 
> DOG INTO A SHOE BOX??? 
> What? You don't have a kennel?!? BUY A DAMN KENNEL! DUH!
>   

It's to colour the sound.  I use a tube pre, myself.  Mine can take line 
level inputs handily, though.

Take care,
Des


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From: "Jesse" <jesse@...>

>I think he clearly stated he did not want anyone to reply who is not trying 
>to setup the MDrum the same as his setup... keep your snide comments 2 
>yourself guys!!


He is the one started the snide comments,
and he also started bitching about Elektron and their customer support.
He is the source of his own troubles.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "s a" <lucinniega@...>


>I never said that I'm plugging the MD directly into a microphone input. Its 
>going through a DI first and then in to a mic pre.

That's why you're getting noise!
You're reducing an analogue signal to about 10% of its original
voltage, then amplifying it again

> >I never said that I'm plugging the MD directly into a microphone
input. Its 
> >going through a DI first and then in to a mic pre.
> 
> That's why you're getting noise!
> You're reducing an analogue signal to about 10% of its original
> voltage, then amplifying it again

Just adding that this is probably the problem. Reducing signal to 10%
of original voltage, its going to bring the noise up. 

Allthought I must say, recording technical and artistic ways are
sometimes different ways. Sometimes fucking up the signal, will make
it *live* but usually creative choiches tend to be technically pretty
polished also. Also; noise isn't so bad darth vader as gear
manucaturers let to believe. 

I'm finished with the subject.

Toni.