Elektron Musical Instruments

BlaBla,
I\ufffdm not interested in one stupid guy that
didn\ufffdt recognize the SidStation is not a sampler or a 303.
He wants to sell it...Ok!

Now: is there someone to give me a lesson how to use the Sid-Table,
          or give me an overview about the special "magic" in it?


Thanx
Splank!
www.zombienation.de



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Rikard L wrote:

[spaming removed]

OK, that's over the line. This is not the list for insulting silly
flamewars. "Stupid guy" was perhaps a bit impropriate, but the massive
list of stupid personal aggressive insults made mr. Rikard L banned from
this list.

So - all other nice people - keep on the discussion! :)

And if anyone wants to sell his SidStation - let him do so please... 
A second hand market is just a natural development.

May the SID be with you! :)

   __
__///Daniel Hansson           |   SidStation - MOS6581 Synthesis
\XX/ daniel@...   |         www.sidstation.com

I've been trying to get my head round tables for a while now, I can't make
anything that sounds that good with them... Though I'm getting fairly close
by doing the following:

Find a sid tune with a good table in it, work out which channel the good
bit's on, save it as a wave file. Load it in a program like Cool Edit and
zoom in, that way you can see which wave forms it's made up of so you can
make similar ones. I've been using this to try and make weird percussion
noises. I'm not quite there yet though!

The only worthwile thing I've done is a song built up around a SidStation
preset :) (www.mp3.com/pollutedskies -> Sunscape)

And I really am going to take those pics of my Commodore setup soon! :)

--
"I've got one of those funny... things... ... I can't delete it, it won't go
away... Oh, it's OK, it's the cursor" - Customer, 12/1/00

> I've been trying to get my head round tables for a while now, I can't make
> anything that sounds that good with them...

Open some of the preset patches and look how they've been made. It seems like
the best way to learn it.

Ciao,
Joeri
--
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

http://www.belway.com  - Belway Productions
http://www.nbdj.com  - Natural Born Deejays

> I've been trying to get my head round tables for a while now, I can't make
> anything that sounds that good with them... Though I'm getting fairly close
> by doing the following:

I remember some UK musicians on the C64 that used the technique called tables on the Sidstation. They created very strange sounds that almost sounded like samples. Anyone else remember these sounds? Can't remember the name of the composers though.... It was that guy who also coded a lot of games... like Suicide Train. How's that for a classic C64 game? :-)

/Bjorn Fogelberg

<>1461835
<>www.fogelberg.com
<>www.analoguesamples.com

>I remember some UK musicians on the C64 that used the technique called
tables >on the Sidstation. They created very strange sounds that almost
sounded like >samples. Anyone else remember these sounds? Can't remember
the name of the >composers though.... It was that guy who also coded a lot
of games... like >Suicide Train. How's that for a classic C64 game? :-)

Just out of curiosity, do you mean something that "sounded" like a sample,
or actually was sampling?  A crude 4 bit D/A could be simulated on the C64
by jogging the volume register (lower 4 bits of $D418) at audio rates.
This method didn't have anything to do with tables though (well, I suppose
that technically the sample was a "volume table").  Was there a method that
resembled the SIDstation table function too?

BTW: Rob Hubbard used quite a few samples in his later game sound tracks
(I-Ball, BMX Kidz, Skate or Die, Mega Apocalypse, One on One, etc).  I
doubt thats who you are thinking of though since he didn't do Suicide Train
(as far as I know).

So does the SIDstation have enough ram to make it into a crude 4bit
sampler?  Maybe if you cleared all the patch memory?  :-)

-Eric

-- Eric Weik
-- Lytha Studios Digital Media Development
-- mailto:eweik@...
-- http://www.ls-dmd.com/

> Just out of curiosity, do you mean something that "sounded" like a sample,
> or actually was sampling?  A crude 4 bit D/A could be simulated on the C64
> by jogging the volume register (lower 4 bits of $D418) at audio rates.
> This method didn't have anything to do with tables though (well, I suppose
> that technically the sample was a "volume table").  Was there a method that
> resembled the SIDstation table function too?

No no. I was active as a C64 musician myself so I most definetely knew the difference between a sample and these strange sounds. :-) The usual C64-music had the SID-chip updated each frame, 50 or 60 times a second. These other effects updated maby 10 times per frame so each table had ta have a lot of data to play through. But the effect you got from it was very coool. :-)

/Bjorn Fogelberg

<>1461835
<>www.fogelberg.com
<>www.analoguesamples.com

Hey I remember the name of the musician/game progammer.

Tony Crowther!

/Bjorn Fogelberg

<>1461835
<>www.fogelberg.com
<>www.analoguesamples.com

On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Eric Weik wrote:

> From: Eric Weik <eweik@...>
> 
> >I remember some UK musicians on the C64 that used the technique called
> tables >on the Sidstation. They created very strange sounds that almost
> sounded like >samples. Anyone else remember these sounds? Can't remember
> the name of the >composers though.... It was that guy who also coded a lot
> of games... like >Suicide Train. How's that for a classic C64 game? :-)
> 
> Just out of curiosity, do you mean something that "sounded" like a sample,
> or actually was sampling?  A crude 4 bit D/A could be simulated on the C64
> by jogging the volume register (lower 4 bits of $D418) at audio rates.
> This method didn't have anything to do with tables though (well, I suppose
> that technically the sample was a "volume table").  Was there a method that
> resembled the SIDstation table function too?
> 
No, he's right. With the right coding, you can make the SID produce sounds
that can be mistaken for samples (I myself made that mistake several
times :)...

Just take a listen to Bionic Commando
(http://samhain.c64.org/~sid/HVSC/C64music/Follin_Brothers/Bionic_Commando.sid)
for an example of a weird drum solo (with steel drums), all produced by
the SID...
Several other tunes by Tim Follin have similiar instruments. Check them
out (esp. Ghouls & Ghosts!)

If you're using SIDPLAY on a Mac you can turn on the SID register view to
see which waveforms are used. Though I have to admit that you'll need to
know quite a bit more than the information in the SIDStation manual to
decypher the register contents. Knowledge is power! ;)

Cheers,
Andreas

On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, [iso-8859-1] Bj\ufffdrn Fogelberg wrote:

> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Fogelberg?= <bjorn@...>
> 
> > Just out of curiosity, do you mean something that "sounded" like a sample,
> > or actually was sampling?  A crude 4 bit D/A could be simulated on the C64
> > by jogging the volume register (lower 4 bits of $D418) at audio rates.
> > This method didn't have anything to do with tables though (well, I suppose
> > that technically the sample was a "volume table").  Was there a method that
> > resembled the SIDstation table function too?
> 
> No no. I was active as a C64 musician myself so I most definetely knew
> the difference between a sample and these strange sounds. :-) The
> usual C64-music had the SID-chip updated each frame, 50 or 60 times a
> second. These other effects updated maby 10 times per frame so each
> table had ta have a lot of data to play through. But the effect you
> got from it was very coool. :-)
> 
Yes, of course.
But the SIDstation can only update at a maximum of 200 times a second.
Modern SID tunes go even higher.
Take a listen to 
http://samhain.c64.org/~sid/HVSC/C64music/VARIOUS/M-R/Natural_Beat/Taki/Impulse.sid 
or
http://samhain.c64.org/~sid/HVSC/C64music/VARIOUS/M-R/Natural_Beat/Taki/Speed_Up.sid

These are tunes which update SID registers 400 or 800 times a second (I
think Impulse was the faster of these two, but I can't remember)...

Nevertheless, even 50Hz is fast enough if you know what to do.

Cheers,
Andreas

> Just take a listen to Bionic Commando
> (http://samhain.c64.org/~sid/HVSC/C64music/Follin_Brothers/Bionic_Commando.sid)
> for an example of a weird drum solo (with steel drums), all produced by
> the SID...

GODDAMN Tim Follin could do good SID-music! WOW! I get shivers up my spine from these tunes

/Bjorn Fogelberg

<>1461835
<>www.fogelberg.com
<>www.analoguesamples.com

> Take a listen to 
> http://samhain.c64.org/~sid/HVSC/C64music/VARIOUS/M-R/Natural_Beat/Taki/Impulse.sid 
> or
> http://samhain.c64.org/~sid/HVSC/C64music/VARIOUS/M-R/Natural_Beat/Taki/Speed_Up.sid
> 
> These are tunes which update SID registers 400 or 800 times a second (I
> think Impulse was the faster of these two, but I can't remember)...

Very cool ideed, but it kind of bugs me that 10 years have gone by and this musician still sounds like Joeren Tel. Nevermind... very cool sounds! I know roughly how he did them as well. A bit of a pain in the ass to do it on a Sidstation table but it sure would be cool to give it a try. Lets see if I get the time to program a Sidstation. (Still waiting for a good GUI... nuntch nuntch!) ;-)

/Bjorn Fogelberg

<>1461835
<>www.fogelberg.com
<>www.analoguesamples.com

>From: Bj\ufffdrn Fogelberg <bjorn@...>
>To: <elektron-users@onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [elektron] Tables
>Date: din, 18 jan 2000 20:12

> Very cool ideed, but it kind of bugs me that 10 years have gone by and this
> musician still sounds like Joeren Tel. Nevermind... very cool sounds! I
> know roughly how he did them as well. A bit of a pain in the ass to do it
> on a Sidstation table but it sure would be cool to give it a try. Lets see
> if I get the time to program a Sidstation. (Still waiting for a good GUI...
> nuntch nuntch!) ;-)
>
> /Bjorn Fogelberg

..or a good enviroment for Logic Audio...

Reyn Ouwehand

e-mail: prevue@...
www: http://come.to/prevue
ICQ: 23322441

-----------------------
visit: www.tree-top.com
-----------------------

> Lets see if I get the time to program a Sidstation. (Still waiting for a good GUI... nuntch nuntch!) ;-)

Do you mean something like a Sounddiver adaptation? ;-))) (I know someone who's now thinking: "there he is again" :))).

Ciao,
Joeri
--
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

http://www.belway.com  - Belway Productions
http://www.nbdj.com  - Natural Born Deejays

Hi Reyn,

> .or a good enviroment for Logic Audio...
> Reyn Ouwehand

Have you tried my environment for the SidStation yet? All features that can now
be controlled via midi are in it. If you want changes or have ideas, let me know.

Here it is:
 http://www.swiftkick.com/lugenv/synth/sidstatn.zip

Ciao,
Joeri
--
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

http://www.belway.com  - Belway Productions
http://www.nbdj.com  - Natural Born Deejays

>No no. I was active as a C64 musician myself so I most definetely knew the
difference between a sample and these strange sounds. :-) The usual
C64-music had the SID-chip updated each frame, 50 or 60 times a second.
These other effects updated maby 10 times per frame so each table had ta
have a lot of data to play through. But the effect you got from it was very
coool. :-)

Sorry, now I see what you mean.  It seems to me that even some of the later
SID trackers/editors supported this type of thing (I think VoiceTracker 4.2
called them "macros").  Of course the masters like Follin, Galaway,
Hubbard, etc. didn't use pre-packaged trackers.  :-)

Do you suppose the drum effects used in Bionic.Comm. could even be done in
32 table steps?  Maybe it is time to load the tune into an emulator and
dissect it!

Take care,
Eric

-- Eric Weik
-- Lytha Studios Digital Media Development
-- mailto:eweik@...
-- http://www.ls-dmd.com/

> Do you suppose the drum effects used in Bionic.Comm. could even be done in
> 32 table steps?  Maybe it is time to load the tune into an emulator and
> dissect it!

Most definetely. Those where standard Ring mod drums. Amazing tune anyway. :-)

/Bjorn Fogelberg

<>1461835
<>www.fogelberg.com
<>www.analoguesamples.com

On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Eric Weik wrote:

> Do you suppose the drum effects used in Bionic.Comm. could even be done in
> 32 table steps?  Maybe it is time to load the tune into an emulator and
> dissect it!

You do not even need tables for these drums. Just a good knowledge of
SID-programming. Combine one oscillator of noise, one of ringmodulated
triangle and one of squarish pulse, and then find the magic combination of
ramp-lfo's!

They are indeed very cool.
   __
__///Daniel Hansson           |   SidStation - MOS6581 Synthesis
\XX/ daniel@...   |         www.sidstation.com