EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Hi EXS lovers


Looking for some insights into using Drum Samples...

A) How to... vary the samples to emulate a drummers sound?

Taking in to account:

A Bass Drum can vary in velocity but the beater hits the same spot...

A snare will vary where it's struck...

And of course toms and cymbals...



B) How to... Emulate a drummers feel.

What methods are you using?

(please try and give some detail)


Many thanks
Paul

On a fine day, 01-10-2003, Paul Abrahams wrote:

>Looking for some insights into using Drum Samples...
>
>A) How to... vary the samples to emulate a drummers sound?
>
>Taking in to account:
>
>A Bass Drum can vary in velocity but the beater hits the same spot...
>
>A snare will vary where it's struck...
>
>And of course toms and cymbals...

Not a direct answer, but...  some time ago I made 2 environment 
patches, Rnd Notes and RndCC which produce random notes or 
controllers upon reception of note-input.  You can use these to have 
the same kick-note trigger different kicks in the EXS (like: use 
RndNote to produce notes in the C1-C2 range, and have an EXS 
instrument with kicks assigned to C1-C2).  Likewise RndCC can be used 
to randomly alter a certain parameter in the EXS.  Note sure if this 
is what you're looking for, but it's the best answer I currently 
have.  Both patches can be downloaded from my website's Logic section.

>B) How to... Emulate a drummers feel.
>
>What methods are you using?

Hire a drummer :-).  Seriously: no idea.  Lots of hard manual labour I guess.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

From: Paul Abrahams <xcelmusic@...>:

> Hi EXS lovers
> Looking for some insights into using Drum Samples...

> A) How to... vary the samples to emulate a drummers sound?
> Taking in to account:
> - A Bass Drum can vary in velocity but the beater hits the same spot...
> - A snare will vary where it's struck...
> - And of course toms and cymbals...

> B) How to... Emulate a drummers feel.

> What methods are you using? (please try and give some detail)
> Many thanks, Paul

Hi Paul -

I guess that could be a pretty big topic; as far as A) goes, here's a
couple of suggestions as to getting a realistic dynamic response from drum
samples, based on the approach I use with my own kits..

There's two ways to go about getting dynamic (velocity) variation: velocity
cross-switching of layered samples (of different dynamics), or velocity
control of filter, envelope, and sample-start parameters.. Commercial
sample libraries use the former, because it's more universal (they don't
have to redo their programming as much to match the feature set of every
different sampler they support); I use the second (programming-oriented)
approach, so that's what I'll talk about here..

Obviously, the velocity cross-switching method requires a dedicated set of
samples and takes up lots of memory; the second (programming) approach
requires (usually) only loud (ie ff) samples, but requires some programming
know-how, and a sampler that offers dynamic control of the proper
functions.. EXSmkII, with the new modulation matrix, offers good control,
although it currently lacks one key feature: the ability to have complete
independent program settings for each drum.. Instead, in the Groups you get
filter and envelope offsets, which are nice but don't always do the job.
I'll assume that eventually Emagic will implement this properly (EXSP
already has it), and so I'll assume separate settings for each drum (right
now this will work with different instances of EXS for each drum, but to
play the kit live you have to have the sequencer running and use the i/o
trick)..

I've sampled and set up my own drumkits, right now on my K2500R; most of
the programming was originally done to make the kits play naturally from a
full MIDI drum kit.. I'm in the process of porting all my kits over to EXS
(though I'm waiting for them to implement a proper multitimbral feature, as
above).. The K2 has a lot of slick realtime dynamic control capabilities
that EXS doesn't, but, in most cases, what's there plus a little
Environment help should do the trick. Since I'm not done with the EXS
programming, I can't always give you specific settings to use in EXS, just
some general ideas as to approach..

1) Dynamic Control: Attack:

You want to soften the attack of a loud (hard hit) sample via velocity, so
when the drum is played softly you hear something like the natural
variation in tone (just having the amplitude change is not enough, you get
too much of a machine-gun effect and if the track is heavily compressed as
usual, there go your only sense of dynamics).. There are two ways to do
this:

a) Velocity controls Attack in the Amplitude Envelope:

- In a multi-stage envelope, you can set a first stage of around 15-20ms
duration and have velocity modulate the intensity (the level of that
stage), with a decay of around 20-50ms to the next stage's level (max), At
max velocity the envelope plays the sample back unmodified; at lower
velocities the level of the attack transient is softened, simulating a
softer hit; the decay just after this stage is crucial to making this sound
like a natural performance variation rather than a compressor effect (this
is kind of like a velocity-sensitive version of what Enveloper or Transient
Designer does with attacks)..

- With a simpler ADSR envelope like the EXS's, you can accomplish more or
less the same thing by using the velocity to attack time feature provided..
Here the exact setting will be critical (just like the decay setting
above), and will differ for every different type of drum or cymbal (one of
the main reasons you need multitimbrality; the Group offsets don't offer
this variation). In EXS, a typical value around the 60ms area seems to be
good.. (ie Kick/toms/hihats might have shorter settings, snare will have a
longer setting (to allow for pressrolls), and crashes might have an even
longer setting (to allow for swells)..

b) Velocity controls Sample-Start point:

With this approach, gradually lower velocities play the sample back from a
point gradually into or past the initial hard transient, resulting in a
softer-sounding hit without too much mushiness; once again, a different
setting will be required for each drum class for best results. After using
both this and the attack/attacktime modulation methods above, I prefer a)
on all drums in a typical trap kit, except, for some reason, ride, in some
cases..

Also, in EXS, there is a caveat to using sample-start velocity modulation:
EXS expresses the velocity-to-sample-start adjustment as a percentage of
sample length rather than a fixed duration, so unless all your samples are
the same length, you'll get unpredictable results with this as you audition
different drums, making you reset it for each new sample rather than having
a global setting which pretty much works on every drum of a particular type
(I use it for rides, but I do trim my drum samples to the same length per
type, for a number of reasons)..

2) Dynamic Control: Tone

Some drums will benefit from a little gentle velocity to (lowpass) filter
cutoff modulation.. Kicks and toms sound good with this (in conjunction
with attack control), but I wouldn't use it on snares and cymbals..

3) Dynamic Control: Pitch:

A slight increase in pitch with harder velocities can sound good,
particularly on toms (actually, if the sample is a hard hit, better to have
the pitch dropped a hair with lower velocities and coming up to normal at
max). (A velocity-to-pitch envelope can also be applied, especially on
toms, to simulate the greater amount of pitch-drop that occurs on some toms
as you hit harder; however, this probably has to be applied on an
individual basis rather than via a general drum template, as different tom
tunings and head configurations produce more or less of this effect
naturally, and you can't be sure what's going to be in the samples
themselves)..

4) Variation:

Drummers never hit the drum exactly the same twice , so a little bit of
natural-sounding variation from hit to hit goes a long way to eliminating
one of the dead giveaways of sampled drums, the "machine-gun effect"..

a) A little random pitch variation per note is good (anywhere between 20-40
cents); this must trigger a fixed amount of variation with each note-on and
not vary during the note or you'll get an unrealistic warbly effect. In
EXS, they have a nice Random parameter that does just this (up to a range
of 50 cents).. Caveat: Cymbals that really ring out and overlap (like ie
rides) may produce too much of a flanging effect from the detuned
overlapping samples, so this should probably not be used on them..

b) Rimshot: see below, under special Snare techniques..

c) If you program your drum parts rather than playing them, you'll want to
add a little "humanizing" (performance randomizing); Logic has a Transform
function for this, experiment with it. If you do play your parts but need
to Quantize them, try a partial Quantize of 25 to 75 percent to preserve
some of the feel (if there is any!) while still tightening up the
performance..

5) HiHat Programming:

The one thing drummers who played my kit made me work on more than anything
else was the response of the sampled hihat - a good drummer does a lot of
variation with his hats, and while you can't duplicate every bit of it, you
can probably do much better than the hats that come with most MIDI drums
(especially if they adhere to the abysmal GM standard for hats)..

First off, you want to try to get a continuous variation from open to
closed - I do this with a electronic hihat pedal that transmits cc1, and my
programs use this to adjust the hats' openness. I use 4-6 discrete samples
for hat: a foot stomp, a closed hat (sometimes two, tight and slightly
looser, or tip and edge of stick), a partially open slosh, and a wide open
or almost wide open sample (I also have some foot pump samples, although I
haven't incorporated them into the kits yet)..

In the K2500 I use cc1 to crossfade between the closed, half-open, and open
samples (using 3 voices per hit).. EXS has the new sample-select
crossfading feature that should be able to accomplish the same thing
handily (I haven't gotten to that yet, because the different hat samples
really need different attack settings, so I'm waiting). The idea is that if
you're riding on the slosh or open hihats, they ring out overlapping for a
nice natural-sounding wash, but as soon as you stomp on the pedal (cc0) all
of these ringing hat samples will be cut off and the foot sample will sound
(this sounds more natural than a monophonic hihat group). If a pedal is
impractical, the modwheel itself can be used to "play" (even overdub) the
hihat's opening/closing performance. When continuous control is not
feasible (ie for GM compatibility), an Environment patch can be setup to
convert cc1-dependant parts to simple open-note/closed-note hihat parts or
vice-versa..

6) Special Snare Techniques:

Many drum programmers like to have a number of similar but slightly
different hits for each drum (ie RH/LH or random variation), to break up
the monotony of the same sample triggering over and over.. I find that in
most cases, a subtle application of attack control, tone (filter) control,
and random pitch control, along with natural or applied velocity variations
in performance are just as good, with one exception: snare (particularly
the all-important backbeat!)..

First off, the snare needs to have at least 3 different classes of samples;
sidestick, snare center hit (no rim), and rimshot (snare plus rim together,
hard). The snare and rimshot hits are used differently in various musical
styles, for instance jazz drummers tend to play on the snare head itself
more, using rimshots for accents, while a lot of rock drummers lay into
rimshots for every backbeat, though they're on the snare head for fast
runs, ghost notes, drags, and buzz or press-rolls..

In my experience, nothing beats the use of several different rimshot
samples, randomly alternating on the backbeat, for adding a necessary touch
of natural variation; they should be quite similar, but different enough so
that the differences are not immediately noticeable but subconsciously
provide a sense of realism when heard in a track. Here is one place where I
also use a little velocity layering - My kits incorporate 1 or 2 sidestick
samples, 2 or 3 samples for Snare (only), 2 or 3 standard (hard) rimshot, 2
or 3 slightly harder rimshot, and 2 or 3 very hard (accent) rimshot (more
of a pop than the others) -in effect, 5 groups in all. When I play from the
keyboard, the snare and rim groups are on different keys, arranged with the
snare samples on 4 adjacent white keys in the middle and the rimshots
around them (this way I can roll my fingers over the snare keys to perform
pressrolls, drags, etc - if the attack control is implemented well this
will sound quite natural; it will absolutely not work if there is any
rimshot in these snare samples).. I can either choose the different rim
groups by hand, or I can use an Environment patch to automatically assign
them to velocity ranges (if this is the preferred method, this could also
be done within EXS); another Environment patch randomly cycles among the 2
or 3 samples in each rim or snare group.

In addition to these sample variations, there is also some attack control
(different for snare and rimshots), and some pitch randomness applied, as
with all the other drums and cymbals. This is a fair bit of work to set up,
but once done it can be used universally just by assigning new sets of
samples; to my ears it's one of the most effective techniques for making
the kit sound natural AND play with a natural feel. Obviously, you need a
set of well-matched samples for each snare - this is best if you have the
chance to do your own sampling, but even if that's not possible, many of
the sample sets out these days have alternate hits from the same drum
(Clearmountain, Gadd, Ilio, etc) that can be pressed into service if this
approach is tried..

6) Velocity Curve:

To make the kits playable, or to adapt them to prerecorded sequences,
control of the velocity-response curve for each drum type is a good idea..
EXS lacks this, but the Environment has the Exponential Transformer mode -
a range of plus/minus 3 will usually get the job done (this can be critical
to getting a natural sense of dynamics; what good is a drumkit with a lot
of nice velocity-based tonal variation if your MIDI kit's or keyboard's
velocity response typically keeps your performances between, say, 120 and
127!).. An Environment patch can be set up to provide velocity-curve
control per drum both on record and playback..

7) Mixing:

A nice technique, that some of the sample library guys are doing now, is to
sample multiple mics for each drum (close, overhead, bottom (for snare),
and sometimes room), and give the user full control over the blend for
mixdown. This is especially useful on snare, where the top/bottom blend
plus a little judicious eq can yield a lot of variety from the same drum..

8) Miscellaneous:

For convenience, you could set up an Environment mixer/control panel to
centralize all kits' adjustments; it could be simple (ie just level, pan,
pitch, drum selection) or much more comprehensive, depending how important
specific control over the drum sound is to your working method..

Ultimately, I plan to set up an Environment mixer for EXS like that one
I've made for the K2500 version of these kits: control per drum for level,
pan, pitch, decay, velocity curve (rec/play), eq, and multi-mic mix control
for kick, snare, and toms; when I import the kits to EXS I'd like to add
per-drum control for compression, effects, overall overhead level and eq,
and a few other things..  In the K2 kit all the mix and setup parameters
are stored in Environment-based program memories (Transformer Maps) for
kits and individual drums; all the samples are always loaded and instantly
accessible, since the programming-oriented approach makes for much smaller
kit sizes; even if the EXS version continues to grow in size this should
still be feasible..

As I'm writing this I'm taking a break from auditioning a new bunch of drum
samples recorded a couple of weeks ago to be added to the K2 kits.. I've
been impatiently awaiting Emagic getting around to fully implementing
multitimbral capability for EXS so I can finally bring these kits in to the
computer as I have with pretty much the rest of my sample library.. If they
are tweaking EXS (hopefully), maybe they could add a few more matrix
modulation sources and destinations as well, like random (for control of
sample select without the need for an Environment patch), legato (also for
control of sample select, though not for drums, obviously, I'd use it for
bass programming), velocity curve control everywhere(!), at least one more
assignable envelope, and while they're at it make them all multi-stage
envelopes (with fully realtime-controllable rates and levels, ala Kontakt),
a more graphically-oriented sample assignment interface, etc , etc, etc..
Their collaboration with the VSL people (who share much of this kind of
approach to realtime programming) is encouraging - we'll see what develops..

Anyway, that's just a few ideas on the subject.. I hope this is somewhat
helpful.. As far as B) emulating a drummer's performance, well, that's a
whole 'nother topic, perhaps best left for another day.. So now, back to
sampling.. :-)

Cheers, Joe Albano
ROOFTOP PRODUCTIONS, NYC NY
Music: www.rooftopproductions.com
Consulting: www.rooftopproductions.com/Consulting.html

Joe, what a great post that was!  One question though on the subject of...

>5) HiHat Programming:

You write:

>First off, you want to try to get a continuous variation from open to
>closed - I do this with a electronic hihat pedal that transmits cc1, and my
>programs use this to adjust the hats' openness. I use 4-6 discrete samples
>for hat

You mean the pedal crossfades between the different hat samples, 
right?  How?  Are they all assigned to the same key but in different 
velocity layers?

>In the K2500 I use cc1 to crossfade between the closed, half-open, and open
>samples (using 3 voices per hit).. EXS has the new sample-select
>crossfading feature that should be able to accomplish the same thing
>handily (I haven't gotten to that yet, because the different hat samples
>really need different attack settings, so I'm waiting). The idea is that if
>you're riding on the slosh or open hihats, they ring out overlapping for a
>nice natural-sounding wash, but as soon as you stomp on the pedal (cc0) all
>of these ringing hat samples will be cut off and the foot sample will sound
>(this sounds more natural than a monophonic hihat group).

So: all the open-hat samples are on one key, the cc1 pedal does 
velocity crossfading between them, and the samples are in a 
polyphonic group so you can have overlapping hats... Yes?  How then 
does the cc0 pedal cut off all those ringing notes?  Mind you: I 
would know how to make an environment patch that does this, but it 
sounds as if you don't use any environment trickery at all, which got 
me curious.

If I'm completely mistaken about any of the above, please correct me...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

Hopefully this will spark others to give some tips on how they deal with
their samples and what methods are used to generate "a feel"

> Anyway, that's just a few ideas on the subject.. I hope this is somewhat
> helpful.. As far as B) emulating a drummer's performance, well, that's a
> whole 'nother topic, perhaps best left for another day.. So now, back to
> sampling.. :-)
> 
> Cheers, Joe Albano

Thanks Joe... So much info there...

..Now I'm dying to know... How you accomplish B)

Paul


A) Not coming from a hardware sampler or midi background myself, the EX24 is
my first sampler and your insights are perfect to help me understand
manipulating samples in kit form.

B) I only use a midi keyboard to play in individual parts and 'the feel' is
built up gradually, as I'm building the Drum track I'm tweaking the samples.
Sometimes I will try out a few loops, straight, or swing to find interesting
accents. I usually find a few bars, that I like.. which sets me off, trying
different ways of manipulating it...I may turn this into a percussion track
or even make a Groove Template and apply that to any further (Drum)
overdubs.

....tonight I noticed an unplayable delay, I had to adjust my playing to
compensate. Now I hadn't noticed this before...it maybe because I'm closing
in on my CPU's max

,,, I have just finished Plat6 demo, didn't note it there ...so it could be
Plat5x...

Hi guys

Maybe this is not the right forum but does anyone have a Multisets for
Yamaha S-90 with all the instrument names included?

Regards

Andreas

From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...>:

> Joe, what a great post that was!

Hi Hendrik -

Thanks!

> One question though on the subject of 5) HiHat Programming: You write:

>> First off, you want to try to get a continuous variation from open
>> to closed - I do this with a electronic hihat pedal that transmits
>> cc1, and my programs use this to adjust the hats' openness. I use
>> 4-6 discrete samples for hat..

> You mean the pedal crossfades between the different hat samples,
> right? How? Are they all assigned to the same key but in different
> velocity layers?

Yes, they're all assigned to the same key, but not different velocity
layers (although you'd use what _used to be_ velocity layer settings in the
EXS editor) - however, the crossfading itself is done strictly with cc1, so
I can play at any velocity and it's independent of whether the hat is open,
closed, or in-between..

>> In the K2500 I use cc1 to crossfade between the closed, half-open, and
>> open samples (using 3 voices per hit).. EXS has the new sample-select
>> crossfading feature that should be able to accomplish the same thing
>> handily (I haven't gotten to that yet, because the different hat samples
>> really need different attack settings, so I'm waiting). The idea is that
>> if you're riding on the slosh or open hihats, they ring out overlapping
>> for a nice natural-sounding wash, but as soon as you stomp on the pedal
>> (cc0) all of these ringing hat samples will be cut off & the foot sample
>> will sound (this sounds more natural than a monophonic hihat group).

> So: all the open-hat samples are on one key, the cc1 pedal does velocity
> crossfading between them, and the samples are in a polyphonic group so you
> can have overlapping hats.. Yes?

Yes.. all the open and closed samples are on the same key (actually the
same  LH and RH keys); only the foot sound is on a different key..

> How then does the cc0 pedal cut off all those ringing notes?

Technically, it doesn't, it fades back from the open/slosh sample layers to
the closed sample layer - of course by that time the (short) closed sample
is finished, so that layer is silent, all you hear is the foot sample
triggered as the hat "closes" (resulting in the typical "shoop" sound of a
closing hihat), which is either triggered by the pedal itself (the pedal I
use also puts out a note trigger) or in a pinch by an Environment patch
that can turn cc0 into the foot hat note (copy and process)..

> Mind you: I would know how to make an Environment patch that does this,
> but it sounds as if you don't use any Environment trickery at all, which
> got me curious. If I'm completely mistaken about any of the above,
> please correct me..

I do use Environment trickery for some of the programming (the randomizing
of the snare/rimshot samples, chokes for the crash cymbals, converting this
hihat approach to GM standard, general remapping, etc) but not for the
crossfading of the hihats.. Keep in mind, though, this is currently on my
K2500 (crossfading between (polyphonic) layers, each with a full
independent range of parameter settings) - I haven't tried this yet in EXS..

= = = =

Hold on, I just did try it (!), and it seems to work fine.. I did a simple
test in one instance of EXS using the matrix modulation Sample Select by
cc1.. Even though I'd prefer separate settings for some more parameters,
this works ok.. Here's how to set it up:

- In a new Instrument make 4 zones, foot/closedHH/sloshHH/openHH;
  (obviously each zone is set for one-shot and disable pitch);
  load in appropriate hihat samples for each zone

- Assign each zone to a separate group; set Select Range for each as follows:
  Closed HH group: 0-64; Slosh HH group; 65-96; Open HH group: 97-127;
  Note: the "Select by" setting for these layers is blank (unassigned)

- I also added 3 more zones duplicating the closed/slosh/open zones on a
  different key (for two-handed play), assigned to the same groups, resp

- For the closed HH group set ADSR Offset Attack to -160ms; Save

- Back on the main page in the matrix modulation section set
  Sample Select by Controller 1, range slider at max (100%)

- Under Xfade set Amount to ± 25, and Type to Equal Power

- In Env 2 set Attack to min (0ms) and Att Via Vel to about 160ms

- Set Level to max and Level Via Vel to about -24dB or so

- Set Random (pitch) to about ± 40 cents

- I had to set polyphony to 24 voices or I seemed to get some weird
  voice-stealing (actually, new notes that sometimes didn't sound! -
  they really need to look at their voice-stealing algorithm, it could
  be so much better, and save on CPU overhead to boot!)

Despite the fact that I'd prefer completely independent Vel>Envelope
settings for closed and slosh/open hats, this works pretty well.. You can
fine-tune the crossfading by adjusting the Select Range settings and the
Xfade Amount setting to taste..

If Emagic does come out with multitimbral EXS, I'll definitely prefer to
have separate layers (channels) for each hat, and obviously the above
settings may not work so well if you try to incorporate other drums into
the same Instrument, but at least it's a start..

Cheers, Joe Albano
ROOFTOP PRODUCTIONS, NYC NY
Music: www.rooftopproductions.com
Consulting: www.rooftopproductions.com/Consulting.html

On a fine day, 02-10-2003, Joe Albano wrote:

>  > You mean the pedal crossfades between the different hat samples,
>>  right? How? Are they all assigned to the same key but in different
>>  velocity layers?
>
>Yes, they're all assigned to the same key, but not different velocity
>layers (although you'd use what _used to be_ velocity layer settings in the
>EXS editor)

Oops, sample select layers -- that's what I meant.  Old habits die hard :).

>  > How then does the cc0 pedal cut off all those ringing notes?
>
>Technically, it doesn't, it fades back from the open/slosh sample layers to
>the closed sample layer - of course by that time the (short) closed sample
>is finished, so that layer is silent, all you hear is the foot sample
>triggered as the hat "closes" (resulting in the typical "shoop" sound of a
>closing hihat), which is either triggered by the pedal itself (the pedal I
>use also puts out a note trigger) or in a pinch by an Environment patch
>that can turn cc0 into the foot hat note (copy and process)..

Aha, so you have, say, 3 hat samples on F1 and a foot sample on G1. 
Play F1 with cc1 full open, and while the note sounds you turn back 
the modwheel to "close the hat" (cycle through the 3 xfaded hat 
samples). Then at the end of that you trigger G1 for the foot-sound. 
Have I got that right?

>  > Mind you: I would know how to make an Environment patch that does this,
>  > but it sounds as if you don't use any Environment trickery at all, which
>  > got me curious. If I'm completely mistaken about any of the above,
>  > please correct me..
>
>I do use Environment trickery for some of the programming (the randomizing
>of the snare/rimshot samples, chokes for the crash cymbals, converting this
>hihat approach to GM standard, general remapping, etc) but not for the
>crossfading of the hihats.. Keep in mind, though, this is currently on my
>K2500 (crossfading between (polyphonic) layers, each with a full
>independent range of parameter settings) - I haven't tried this yet in EXS..

Well, as you discovered yourself, this should be fairly 
straightforward to implement in the EXS :).  Thanks for the detailed 
parameter description though -- I'll surely save your post (and the 
previous one) to play around with this approach myself once I find 
some time.

>If Emagic does come out with multitimbral EXS, I'll definitely prefer to
>have separate layers (channels) for each hat

I don't really believe they're going to make a multi-EXS any time 
soon, so I wouldn't hold my breath...

>, and obviously the above
>settings may not work so well if you try to incorporate other drums into
>the same Instrument, but at least it's a start..

And a good one at that.  I'm sure many people have saved both posts 
by now :).  Thanks for your time & patience...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...>:

> How then does the cc0 pedal cut off all those ringing notes?

>> Technically, it doesn't, it fades back from the open/slosh sample layers
>> to the closed sample layer - of course by that time the (short) closed
>> sample is finished, so that layer is silent, all you hear is the foot
>> sample triggered as the hat "closes" (resulting in the typical "shoop"
>> sound of a closing hihat), which is either triggered by the pedal itself
>> (the pedal I use also puts out a note trigger) or in a pinch by an Env
>> patch that can turn cc0 into the foot hat note (copy and process)..

> Aha, so you have, say, 3 hat samples on F1 and a foot sample on G1.
> Play F1 with cc1 full open, and while the note sounds you turn back
> the modwheel to "close the hat" (cycle through the 3 xfaded hat
> samples). Then at the end of that you trigger G1 for the foot-sound.
> Have I got that right?

Hi Hendrik -

Yes, exactly. Also, if you play a closed hat with cc1 at 0, then
immediately open the pedal, the hat _will_ open, (this seems to work better
than most of the MIDI drum kits out there (including V-Drum) where if you
hit a closed hat and then immediately open it you get nothing - a lot of
drummers seem to do this, either by accident or design)..

>> If Emagic does come out with multitimbral EXS, I'll definitely prefer
>> to have separate layers (channels) for each hat..

> I don't really believe they're going to make a multi-EXS any time soon,
> so I wouldn't hold my breath..

Yeah, it does look that way, doesn't it, though I really hope they do
eventually - they're the _only_ soft-sampler lacking this feature! The
other way for them to improve it would be simply to incorporate a _full
range_ of (front-panel) settings for each Group - they could incorporate a
group-select parameter on the front panel to switch between the settings
for whatever groups are present in the Instrument.. An Instrument or
program Setting would start out with only one global setting panel (like
now); activating a group's independent settings would copy in the global
settings; changing any settings would make _only those_ settings
group-specific (can't increase CPU load that much, can it?).. The combined
global and group-specific settings would be saved to the Instrument and to
the Settings files, just as they are now.. Doing it this way wouldn't force
them to immediately redo their code relating to the handling of multiple
instruments (although they should address that as well).. C'mon Emagic, why
the resistance to this feature?

>> Obviously the [specific hihat] settings may not work so well if you try
>> to incorporate other drums into the same Instrument, but .. it's a start..

> And a good one at that. I'm sure many people have saved both posts
> by now :). Thanks for your time & patience..

It's my pleasure.. :-)

Cheers, Joe Albano
ROOFTOP PRODUCTIONS, NYC NY
Music: www.rooftopproductions.com
Consulting: www.rooftopproductions.com/Consulting.html

From: Paul Abrahams <xcelmusic@...>:

> Hopefully this will spark others to give some tips on how they deal
> with their samples and what methods are used to generate "a feel"..

>> Anyway, that's just a few ideas on the subject.. I hope this is
>> somewhat helpful.. As far as B) emulating a drummer's performance,
>> well, that's a whole 'nother topic, perhaps best left for another day..

> Thanks Joe.. ..Now I'm dying to know.. How you accomplish B)..

Hi Paul -

I almost always perform my parts live, so I don't really think about it too
much, but here are a few comments, in no particular order, based on my own
methods as well as feedback and observations of drummers who've recorded on
my MIDI kit..

- I do play drums a little (basic beats, etc), but most of the time I tend
to play my parts in from the keyboard rather than from the MIDI kit, which
is there mostly for "real" drummers (!) On the keyboard the drums are laid
out like a kit, snares in the center, rimshots around them (all white
keys), toms above and around the snares/rims (mostly on the black keys,
except the floor tom), and hihats and cymbals placed around the drums
appropriately (since cross-handed play is awkward on a keyboard, the hats
are mapped to keys both right and left of the drums). All drums are
assigned to at least two (or more) keys (usually adjacent), to facilitate
rapid playing (impossible to do realistically with only one key per sound)
- this is especially useful for snare, where rolling the fingers over 3 or
4 adjacent snare keys can provide a convincing pressroll or drag, assuming
the sound is programmed to change tone realistically).. I also utilize
hihat and kick pedals under the keyboard, although I have alternate layouts
that don't require these..

- Most of the "feel" comes from the performance, although my playing on the
keys is sometimes a bit sloppy, in which case I use some _very gentle_
*partial* quantizing to tighten things up without losing the played-in
feel.. I usually try to keep the Q strength to around 25-35 percent (more
than that tends to stiffen up the performance and make it sound
"quantized", as well as tightening up flams too much); I manually edit any
remaining individual bad notes or fills. If I were programming in a part
(or editing a quantized part) I might apply a little "humanizing" (Logic
Transformer) to randomize timing and maybe velocity, but not too much or
the virtual "drummer" will sound drunk (not that that wouldn't necessarily
be realistic in its own way ;-) )..

- By now most everybody knows about "pushing" or "laying back" the backbeat
or other components in a drum pattern for a particular feel, so I won't get
into it here, other than to suggest analyzing any MIDI files from real
drummers' performances, so if you're manually editing your own drum parts
(rather than quantizing them to a Groove Template) you'll know how much to
adjust notes by to get the feel you're looking for or to correct
sloppily-timed hits..

- If I'm ever _programming_ fills, I make sure that any hihat or ride
cymbals (at least stick work) stops during the fill, which is more
realistic (although some drummers do keep the hihat foot going through
fills). A lot of drummers tend to speed up (rush) a tiny bit going into and
through a fill, landing on the downbeat a little early, and then
immediately getting back to the click (when necessary). The right amount of
this sounds natural and adds a little energy to the track; too much and it
just sounds like an inexperienced drummer..

- If programming typical fills, say, tom fills (ie dugga-dugga dugga-dugga
dugga-dugga), see that there's a little subtle velocity variation within
each string, rather than having every hit at the same velocity (ie instead
of da-da-da-da-da-da, better would be DA-da-da-da or da-da-DA-DA-da-da or
da-da-dA-dA-DA-dA-dA-da)

- Having different samples for snare and rimshot, and using them
appropriately, is another good way to enhance the musicality of a snare
performance.. Some drummers use the rimshots for accents only, whereas many
(most) rock drummers tend to hit rimshots on every backbeat. Be sure to use
snare samples for rapid runs or rolls, though, as these usually result in
softer/medium velocity hits and wouldn't sound as natural on rimshot
samples. When doing a snare fill (like da-da-da-da-da-da), do it on snare
if it's a soft or transitional riff, but if it's an accented or dramatic
riff, doing it on rimshots will add much more energy/excitement. It's also
good to have _slightly_ different rimshot samples (or sets of samples) for
regular (medium-load), hard (loud), and accented (extra loud and sharp); if
you're doing, say, a hi-energy rock groove with rimshots on all the
backbeats, switching from a regular (medium) rimshot sample set on the
verses to a harder (loud) rimshot sample set on the chorus can add a subtle
sense of increased energy when musically appropriate without being too
obvious about it, or without having to "fuss-up" a good basic groove too
much..

- When playing or programming, the use of subtle grace notes, accents,
little drags, etc on the snare is a great way to provide variety and a more
natural real-sounding performance.. This will only be subtle and sound good
if the sample used for the soft embellishment notes is snare-only (no hard
rimshot component) and low velocities trigger what _sounds like_ a soft hit
(either an actual soft-hit sample or an appropriately programmed hit (see
the other posts), rather than a loud sample simply reduced in volume, which
will sound stiff and less "musical" for this purpose.. Listening closely to
real drummers' performances on CD, especially in mid-tempo groove kind of
tracks, will give a good idea of how drummers use this technique musically
in various styles..

- If programming a hihat or ride timekeeping part consisting of 8th or 16th
notes (ie in 4/4), accenting the 1 and 3 notes (alternate odd numbered
notes) slightly will also emulate what a lot of drummers do, and alleviate
the "machine" sound of perfectly even timekeeping (though some drummers, in
some tunes, do hit, say, the hat more evenly on every note - if that's
appropriate, some random pitch variation built in to the sample helps to
make it more natural and less mechanical)..

- Good (tasty) drummers do a _lot_ of subtle variations with the hihat
pedal.. By flexing their foot they can create _very slight_ variations in
length and tone in a series of, say, 8th or 16th note closed hihat hits,
sometimes over the course of a few notes (like a barely perceptible swell),
or sometimes to go along with accented notes (some drummers who tend to hit
the hat more evenly use this technique to provide the subtle accents within
their timekeeping parts).. This can be emulated to some degree with a hihat
that has a continuous open/close action (like my example with the modwheel
from the other posts); you could even draw in very small modwheel curves in
a HyperDraw screen to go with a previously recorded hat part (in fact,
drawing in modwheel open/close parts is a great way (with samples that use
it) to turn a boring quantized hat part into something that "breathes" a
little)..

I guess some of this stuff is pretty obvious, some of it isn't; I've
utilized all of these techniques to good effect.. Anyway, I hope this is
helpful..

Cheers, Joe Albano
ROOFTOP PRODUCTIONS, NYC NY
Music: www.rooftopproductions.com
Consulting: www.rooftopproductions.com/Consulting.html

On a fine day, 03-10-2003, Joe Albano wrote:

>  > Aha, so you have, say, 3 hat samples on F1 and a foot sample on G1.
>>  Play F1 with cc1 full open, and while the note sounds you turn back
>>  the modwheel to "close the hat" (cycle through the 3 xfaded hat
>>  samples). Then at the end of that you trigger G1 for the foot-sound.
>  > Have I got that right?
>
>Yes, exactly. Also, if you play a closed hat with cc1 at 0, then
>immediately open the pedal, the hat _will_ open, (this seems to work better
>than most of the MIDI drum kits out there (including V-Drum) where if you
>hit a closed hat and then immediately open it you get nothing - a lot of
>drummers seem to do this, either by accident or design)..

Yeah, I played with the concept a bit, when I had 15 minutes to spare 
this afternoon, and it's indeed working amazingly well.  Mainly a bit 
of tweaking of the Select Range to fit your keyboard & playing 
style...  And all that with just 3 samples...  Cool.  I would have 
expected worse artefacts or something, but it sounds rather smooth if 
you handle the modwheel with some intelligence :).

>  > I don't really believe they're going to make a multi-EXS any time soon,
>>  so I wouldn't hold my breath..
>
>Yeah, it does look that way, doesn't it, though I really hope they do
>eventually - they're the _only_ soft-sampler lacking this feature!

And the only one lacking drag & drop, and a graphical editor, and... 
Oh well, I'll shut up :-).

>The other way for them to improve it would be simply to incorporate a _full
>range_ of (front-panel) settings for each Group

I might even prefer that to multitimbrality (which I somehow always 
find cumbersome to handle, but that's just my aging brain probably). 
Although I guess that in practice there's not much difference between 
both approaches (apart for the need to create special instruments for 
the non-multitimbral solution you propose).

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...>:

HJ> I don't really believe [Emagic's] going to make a multi-EXS any
HJ> time soon, so I wouldn't hold my breath..

JA> Yeah, it does look that way, doesn't it, though I really hope they
JA> do eventually - they're the _only_ soft-sampler lacking this feature!

HJ> And the only one lacking drag & drop, and a graphical editor, and..
HJ> Oh well, I'll shut up :-).

No, don't shut up! ;-) Let's keep bitching at them, maybe they'll finally
decide to go ahead and add some of this stuff, or accelerate their plans if
they're already working on it.. (Well, we can hope anyway)..

JA> The other way for them to improve it would be simply to incorporate
JA> a _full range_ of (front-panel) settings for each Group..

HJ> I might even prefer that to multitimbrality (which I somehow always
HJ> find cumbersome to handle, but that's just my aging brain probably).
HJ> Although I guess that in practice there's not much difference between
HJ> both approaches (apart for the need to create special instruments for
HJ> the non-multitimbral solution you propose).

Yes, if they didn't provide multitimbrality along with some kind of
Multi-Program capability (saved Multi-Settings that would simultaneously
load up to 16 Instruments on different MIDI channels in one EXS instance),
then the other approach (full-function Groups) would definitely be better
for the application we've been discussing (drum kits). Of course they could
also simply add a "receive on MIDI channel" setting to each full-function
Group, which might have some other benefits as well..

Or better yet, they could implement both approaches, and while they're at
it add drag & drop, and a graphical editor, and exponential curves, and
better envelopes, and more modulation sources/destinations, yadda yadda
yadda.. :-)

Cheers, Joe Albano
ROOFTOP PRODUCTIONS, NYC NY
Music: www.rooftopproductions.com
Consulting: www.rooftopproductions.com/Consulting.html

On a fine day, 04-10-2003, Joe Albano wrote:

>Or better yet, they could implement both approaches, and while they're at
>it add drag & drop, and a graphical editor, and exponential curves, and
>better envelopes, and more modulation sources/destinations, yadda yadda
>yadda.. :-)

We're not being critical today, are we? :-)  But you're right... 
Given the fact that the EXS is the tightest sampler on the market, it 
would be an absolutely *killer* product (instead of just a rather 
good one) if it had multitimbrality, multi-stage envelopes, drag & 
drop, graphical editor and the like.  Still, I'm not being completely 
optimistic on most of these issues...  But who knows, one day, in the 
bright future... :)

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/