EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

hi,

i sold my DM Pro to go 100% software.

what is the best sample cd in EXS format of nothing
but drum hits?

i'm looking for both electronic and acoustic sounds.

what is most important to me:

-  very hi fidelity recordings.
-  in standard EXS format so i can just drop them into 
   the appropriate folder and play.
-  no 808's or 909's or Linn's or similar familiar kits.
-  NO LOOPS OR BREAKBEATS PLEASE!

thanks in advance to everyone for their suggestions.

sincerely,
jon zaremba

>hi,
>
>i sold my DM Pro to go 100% software.
>
>what is the best sample cd in EXS format of nothing
>but drum hits?
>
>i'm looking for both electronic and acoustic sounds.
>
>what is most important to me:
>
>-  very hi fidelity recordings.
>-  in standard EXS format so i can just drop them into
>    the appropriate folder and play.
>-  no 808's or 909's or Linn's or similar familiar kits.
>-  NO LOOPS OR BREAKBEATS PLEASE!
>
>thanks in advance to everyone for their suggestions.
>
>sincerely,
>jon zaremba

Hi Jon,

I'm a huge fan of Emagic Xtreme HipHop. No (or maybe very few) 808/909 style 
samples but plenty of gritty, earthy snares, and thick juicy kicks. I also 
picked up VR Hip Hop (Giga), and that one is very good as well. IMO the 
Xtreme HipHop library is better than Stylus, which I also own. Of course 
that's a preference thing, but I know what I turn to 9 times out of 10. Both 
those libraries fall squarely in the electronic category. As for acoustic, 
most of the time (which is, I'll admit, very rarely, as (yup you guessed it) 
I'm a hip-hopper), when I want an acoustic kit sound, I'll turn to the NS 
Free kit. Or a few other free SF2 kits I've found through my internet 
travels.

Mark

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> I'm a huge fan of Emagic Xtreme HipHop. No (or maybe very few)  808/909 style 
> samples but plenty of gritty, earthy snares, and thick juicy  kicks. I also 
> picked up VR Hip Hop (Giga), and that one is very good as well. IMO the 
> Xtreme HipHop library is better than Stylus, which I also own. 

thanks for the response.

is this Emagic disc still in print?
i've looked for it in the past, but without any luck.
and there is no mention of it on Emagic's website...

any ideas where i can track down a copy?

thanks,
jon z.
http://www.jonzaremba.com

On May 27, 2004, at 3:02 PM, Save the Universe wrote:

>> I'm a huge fan of Emagic Xtreme HipHop. No (or maybe very few)  
>> 808/909 style
>> samples but plenty of gritty, earthy snares, and thick juicy  kicks. 
>> I also
>> picked up VR Hip Hop (Giga), and that one is very good as well. IMO 
>> the
>> Xtreme HipHop library is better than Stylus, which I also own.
>
> thanks for the response.
>
> is this Emagic disc still in print?
> i've looked for it in the past, but without any luck.
> and there is no mention of it on Emagic's website...
>
> any ideas where i can track down a copy?

If you (or anyone) manages to find a place to buy this in the states 
(or really anywhere, but the only places I've found outside the states 
can only sell to their region), I'd like to know as well. Every 
reseller I've called or emailed is sold out. And yes, it is 
discontinued, so you have to find someone with stock left (which I 
haven't managed to do).

On a fine day, 27-05-2004, Mark Jones wrote:

>  >what is the best sample cd in EXS format of nothing
>  >but drum hits?
>
>I'm a huge fan of Emagic Xtreme HipHop.

Jon - please realise that the Xtreme HH collection features mainly 
kicks, snares and hats.  Some 340 dry kicks, 340 small room kicks, 
230 dry snares, 230 small room snares, 156 dry hats, 156 small room 
hats (that's actually short, long and pedal hats, so probably 
156/3=52 really different hat sounds).
In comparison, the "Cymbals and Misc" folder is tiny with 27 items -- 
which is cymbals, toms, stick, rimshot, tambourine, and some others.

So if you're looking for a wide ranging assortment of all possible 
drum sounds, the Xtreme HipHop is definitely _not_ the thing to buy. 
I got the lib from a magazine that wanted me to do a review (which 
was cancelled for irrelevant reasons), and personally I would never 
buy it.  Nice if you're into hiphop probably, but you can't even make 
a half-decent rock kit with it.

And then I don't even comment on the loops... ahwmygod...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

> So if you're looking for a wide ranging assortment of all possible
 > drum sounds, the Xtreme HipHop is definitely _not_ the thing to buy.
 > I got the lib from a magazine that wanted me to do a review (which
 > was cancelled for irrelevant reasons), and personally I would never
 > buy it.  Nice if you're into hiphop probably, but you can't even make
 > a half-decent rock kit with it.

hendrik,

thank you for this info.  from your details, i really don't think it'd be
what i'm after.

what would you recommend instead?

i know i can just buy a normal sample cd, but i'm trying to avoid the task
of mapping everything
myself.  it would be nice if i could find a cd that has all the drum sounds
already organized into
groups and everything...

thanks again,
jon z.
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At 01:54 PM 05/27/2004, you wrote:
>what would you recommend instead?

The Original Drumkit From Hell and Wizoo's Mixtended Drums are both good, 
and both come in EXS versions. I believe these are both all-acoustic, however.

On 28/05/2004, at 7:27 AM, Sean McCoy wrote:

> At 01:54 PM 05/27/2004, you wrote:
>> what would you recommend instead?
>
> The Original Drumkit From Hell and Wizoo's Mixtended Drums are both 
> good,
> and both come in EXS versions. I believe these are both all-acoustic, 
> however.


For acoustic kit sounds the Mixtend drums are the best I've heard. Up 
to 12 velocity layers deep per sound and phase coherent overhead and 
room mic versions as well. Conceptually clever and sonically great. 
Just beautiful really.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Paul Najar <paulnajar@j...> wrote:
> 
> For acoustic kit sounds the Mixtend drums are the best I've heard. 
Up 
> to 12 velocity layers deep per sound and phase coherent overhead 
and 
> room mic versions as well. Conceptually clever and sonically great. 
> Just beautiful really.

Couldn't have put it better myself - great, great acoustic drum 
samples, and as Paul mentions, having the OH and room samples 
available seperately means you can "dial in" how much close 
miked/ambient sound you want. A must have, IMO.
kind regards

Mark Cahill

Mark Cahill wrote about the Mixtended Drums: having the OH and room samples 
available seperately means you can "dial in" how much close 
miked/ambient sound you want

Doesn´t  "Drumkits from Hell Superior" do this as well. I absolutely love the Mixtended Drums and I would like to have more of the same kind which is why I´m curious if DFHS doesn´t do the same thing. Sadly there´s no AU version at the moment but it is being developed and I want to buy it as soon as it´s out if it´s anything like Mixtended Drums.
Henrik Krogh
henrikkrogh@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > any ideas where i can track down a copy?

I picked up my copy about a year ago on ebay, new in sealed case... 
That may be your best bet. I see all three emagic libraries there 
occasionally.

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> 
wrote:
> On a fine day, 27-05-2004, Mark Jones wrote:
> 
> >  >what is the best sample cd in EXS format of nothing
> >  >but drum hits?
> >
> >I'm a huge fan of Emagic Xtreme HipHop.
> 
> Jon - please realise that the Xtreme HH collection features mainly 
> kicks, snares and hats.  Some 340 dry kicks, 340 small room kicks, 
> 230 dry snares, 230 small room snares, 156 dry hats, 156 small 
room 
> hats (that's actually short, long and pedal hats, so probably 
> 156/3=52 really different hat sounds).
> In comparison, the "Cymbals and Misc" folder is tiny with 27 
items -- 
> which is cymbals, toms, stick, rimshot, tambourine, and some 
others.
> 
> So if you're looking for a wide ranging assortment of all possible 
> drum sounds, the Xtreme HipHop is definitely _not_ the thing to 
buy. 
> I got the lib from a magazine that wanted me to do a review (which 
> was cancelled for irrelevant reasons), and personally I would 
never 
> buy it.  Nice if you're into hiphop probably, but you can't even 
make 
> a half-decent rock kit with it.
> 
> And then I don't even comment on the loops... ahwmygod...
> 
> -- 
> Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
> Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

Xtreme HH is limited, indeed, in scope (you can glean that from its 
title), but IMO its good for any style of dance music. Now if rock 
or jazz is your thing, then no, this isn't the CD for you. But jon 
z. asked for both acoustic and electronic drums. Xtreme HH won't be 
your last purchase, but it is a nice addition to anyone's library. 

The fact that it doesn't contain a decent rock kit does not, in my 
humble opinion, take away from its quality. And I definitely agree 
with your loops sentiment, and I hate phrases....

I'd also like to suggest, jon, that you take a look at some of the 
free downloadable drum samples strewn across the internet. Like the 
NS Free Kit here: http://www.natural-studio.co.uk/ns_kit.htm. It 
comes in EXS format, all you gotta do is put the files where they 
go. Another excellent site is www.hollowsun.com. They have tons of 
excellent samples from classic drum machines like the CR78 (one of 
my favorites), HR16, SR16, Korg DDR and DDD series, as well as the 
obligatory 808 and 909 stuff. Here's another site with unmapped 
samples from classic drum machines: 
http://machines.hyperreal.org/categories/drum-machines/

There's plenty more out there.


The EXS can import and automatically map Giga, SF2, and Akai 
formatted samples (although I find that SF2 translation is a bit 
problematic). So don't worry too much about having to map samples.

  

Mark

On a fine day, 27-05-2004, Save the Universe wrote:

>  > So if you're looking for a wide ranging assortment of all possible
>  > drum sounds, the Xtreme HipHop is definitely _not_ the thing to buy.
>  > I got the lib from a magazine that wanted me to do a review (which
>  > was cancelled for irrelevant reasons), and personally I would never
>  > buy it.  Nice if you're into hiphop probably, but you can't even make
>  > a half-decent rock kit with it.
>
>hendrik,
>
>thank you for this info.  from your details, i really don't think it'd be
>what i'm after.
>
>what would you recommend instead?

No idea, to be honest.  I'm not into drum sampling stuff at all -- I 
just happen to have been given the XHH from this magazine...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

> > For acoustic kit sounds the Mixtend drums are the best I've heard. 

> Couldn't have put it better myself - great, great acoustic drum 
> samples, and as Paul mentions, having the OH and room samples 
> available seperately means you can "dial in" how much close 
> miked/ambient sound you want. A must have, IMO.

thanks to everyone for their feedback so far.  when putting the
Mixtend Drums into EXS, will they be pre-grouped accordingly?
for example, will all of the cymbals of a given kit be grouped
together so that i can easily route them to different outputs
when mixing?

thanks again,
jon z.

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On 28/05/2004, at 11:41 PM, msjones4th wrote:

> Another excellent site is www.hollowsun.com. They have tons of
> excellent samples from classic drum machines like the CR78 (one of
> my favorites), HR16, SR16, Korg DDR and DDD series, as well as the
> obligatory 808 and 909 stuff.

Hmmm, must be having a thick day, the files on this site are .akp which 
I presume are the Akai format. EXS doesn't show these files, how do I 
convert them?


michael

where can I find Mixtend Drums?  Is there a web site?

At 09:46 AM 05/29/2004, you wrote:
>where can I find Mixtend Drums?  Is there a web site?


http://www.wizoo.com/


Note that with their EXS24 bundle, you can get Mixtended Drums, Platinum 24 
Latin Percussion and Platinum 24 Grand Piano for 99 Euro, which is the same 
price as the Drums alone. If you want only the drums, you can get them at a 
slight discount through House of samples and possibly elsewhere.

http://www.mtlc.net/main.php?a=scd&main=1

On 29 May 2004, at 19:13, Sean McCoy wrote:

> Note that with their EXS24 bundle, you can get Mixtended Drums, 
> Platinum 24
> Latin Percussion and Platinum 24 Grand Piano for 99 Euro, which is the 
> same
> price as the Drums alone. If you want only the drums, you can get them 
> at a
> slight discount through House of samples and possibly elsewhere.
>
> http://www.mtlc.net/main.php?a=scd&main=1


Thanks for the tip.

Surfed / liked / ordered :)

Ben Hall
www.benhall.co.uk

Me, too. ;-)

Peter
---
http://www.merlinsound.de

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Ben Hall" <ben@...>
To: <exs-users@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EXS] RE: The Best EXS Drum Sample CD?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tip.
> 
> Surfed / liked / ordered :)
> 
> Ben Hall
> www.benhall.co.uk

On 29/05/2004, at 6:15 PM, Save the Universe wrote:

> thanks to everyone for their feedback so far.  when putting the
> Mixtend Drums into EXS, will they be pre-grouped accordingly?
> for example, will all of the cymbals of a given kit be grouped
> together so that i can easily route them to different outputs
> when mixing?
>

Don't know even though I use and love Mixtend. I personally find it 
hard to believe that so many people seem to want to use the multiple 
outputs feature in EXS. For these hard hitting kit sounds don't you all 
want to add compression and EQ sound by sound when you mix, and if yes 
why bother with multiple out? Why not use as many instances of EXS as 
you need outs and simply add the plugins on the instruments themselves? 
You get the benefit of delay compensation doing this.

I also find that having multiple EXS instances all holding the same kit 
uses hardly any extra CPU and uses no extra ram than to hold one 
instance of the kit. Is there a drawback I'm not aware of in working 
this way?



:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Paul Najar wrote: 

>
> Don't know even though I use and love Mixtend. I personally find it 
> hard to believe that so many people seem to want to use the multiple 
> outputs feature in EXS. For these hard hitting kit sounds don't you all 
> want to add compression and EQ sound by sound when you mix, and if yes 
> why bother with multiple out? Why not use as many instances of EXS as 
> you need outs and simply add the plugins on the instruments themselves? 
> You get the benefit of delay compensation doing this.
>
> I also find that having multiple EXS instances all holding the same kit 
> uses hardly any extra CPU and uses no extra ram than to hold one 
> instance of the kit. Is there a drawback I'm not aware of in working 
> this way?



Hi Paul,

It's just a question of personal preference. 

You can do it 3 different ways.

1. Use multiout kits and apply your compressors and Eq on the Aux objects where
your additional outputs are routed 

2. load kit parts (Snare, Hats, Kick etc) into separate instances and contol
the kit with a single midi sequence. Any pre-programmed kit can be easily
broken down into components by selecting out all of one group with a key
command ( eg the snare group) and pasting it into a  new instrument. If you
have a lot of snare instruments like this you can put them in a folder and step
through them with a key command while the song plays. 

3. You can also load the whole kit into multiple instances and send only Kick
midi parts to one and only Snare midi parts to the next etc - ie multiple midi
sequences - not so great for hyperediting. The additional instances of the kit
use no additional RAM but the extra instances of the EXS24 do I believe. 

I tend to use the first two options.

I set up a folder full of about 50 kits with the same multiout configuration
(eg Snare routed to Alt 3-4 etc). I have an autoload that has the Aux objects
configured and the compressors and Eq and FX sends set up and I can step
through the kits with a key command while the tune plays. 

Regards,
Murray

>  I personally find it
 >  hard to believe that so many people seem to want to use the multiple
 >  outputs feature in EXS. For these hard hitting kit sounds don't you all
 >  want to add compression and EQ sound by sound when you mix, and if yes
 >  why bother with multiple out? Why not use as many instances of EXS as
 >  you need outs and simply add the plugins on the instruments themselves?
 >  You get the benefit of delay compensation doing this.

i've noticed a significant difference in CPU load by using multiple outs.
plus, it is easier to have one
track  in the arrange window with all of the sequenced objects together.
realisticly, if a song takes
advantage of 10 drum sounds, using multiple outs with only 1 instance of EXS
(one kit for the whole
song) would be 1/10th of the CPU load.  perhaps it's just my machine, but
for me, every bit of CPU
power i can save is precious.

any chance someone could check to see if the Mixtend drums are pre-organized
in groups?

thanks,
jon z.
http://www.jonzaremba.com



---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wrote:

>2. load kit parts (Snare, Hats, Kick etc) into separate instances and contol
>the kit with a single midi sequence. 

Sorry - for this to be true you need to copy that single sequence to all
drum parts. 
I do it this way when I program with one whole kit and then split the parts
for greater control. Working with a single sequence is one obvious
advantage of working with multi-out kits.

Regards,
M

>>
>>


>> For acoustic kit sounds the Mixtend drums are the best I've heard.
> Up
>> to 12 velocity layers deep per sound and phase coherent overhead
>
> Couldn't have put it better myself - great, great acoustic drum
> samples, and as Paul mentions, having the OH and room samples
>
> How does mixtend compare with DFH superior?

On 30/05/2004, at 8:41 PM, Murray McDowall wrote:


> It's just a question of personal preference.

There are functionality questions involved with the different methods 
also.

> You can do it 3 different ways.
>
> 1. Use multiout kits and apply your compressors and Eq on the Aux 
> objects where
> your additional outputs are routed

The big crunch with this way is that you loose your plugin delay 
compensation. This is a real pain when using the Mixtend drums since 
the ambient drum versions rely on sample accuracy for phase alignment.

> 2. load kit parts (Snare, Hats, Kick etc) into separate instances and 
> contol
> the kit with a single midi sequence. Any pre-programmed kit can be 
> easily
> broken down into components by selecting out all of one group with a 
> key
> command ( eg the snare group) and pasting it into a  new instrument. 
> If you
> have a lot of snare instruments like this you can put them in a folder 
> and step
> through them with a key command while the song plays.

A little better than # 1 IMO but still pretty boring for me. This comes 
down more to how you like to organise your library. With acoustic kits 
I almost always use the Mixtend series since I got it because of it's 
ambient choices so there is a real benefit in not breaking up complete 
kits since you'd have to do the same to the overhead and/ or room mic 
variants. As for the 808/ 909 kicks and hats etc I almost always use 
the Wizoo Electronic drum series since my Novation Drumstation died. 
Even these are 7-9 velocity layers deep.


> 3. You can also load the whole kit into multiple instances and send 
> only Kick
> midi parts to one and only Snare midi parts to the next etc - ie 
> multiple midi
> sequences - not so great for hyperediting. The additional instances of 
> the kit
> use no additional RAM but the extra instances of the EXS24 do I 
> believe.

This is my preferred method. Even way before EXS when using hardware 
multitimbral drum boxes I preferred to have each drum sound on it's own 
midi channel so it was always quick to globally edit one sound - either 
in the box or the midi data. It also allows me to use the EXS filter 
and amplitude envelope - which is also a time saver in that you don't 
need to save edited versions of a stock kit. It's all done when you 
save the song.

> I tend to use the first two options.
>
> I set up a folder full of about 50 kits with the same multiout 
> configuration
> (eg Snare routed to Alt 3-4 etc). I have an autoload that has the Aux 
> objects
> configured and the compressors and Eq and FX sends set up and I can 
> step
> through the kits with a key command while the tune plays.

This is a clever way of doing it once you've gone through and set it 
all up the way you want - which for me would take a long time since my 
library is pretty darn big. There's no doubt that it's vital to 
actually KNOW what's in your library otherwise it's all but useless 
unless you're prepared to step through and listen to every sound EVERY 
time you need a sound. But having had to organise sample libraries as 
far back as when they were a box of 3.5" floppies I try to avoid like 
the plague spending any more time in this type of activity that I have 
to - and I don't think my drum productions suffer as a result.

YMMV

On 30/05/2004, at 11:18 PM, Save the Universe wrote:

> any chance someone could check to see if the Mixtend drums are 
> pre-organized
> in groups?
>

Just had a look. Each sound is in a group including separate groups for 
open and closed hats.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Paul Najar <paulnajar@j...> wrote:
> 
> On 30/05/2004, at 11:18 PM, Save the Universe wrote:
> 
> > any chance someone could check to see if the Mixtend drums are 
> > pre-organized
> > in groups?
> >
> 
> Just had a look. Each sound is in a group including separate groups for 
> open and closed hats.


Where can I find the Mixtend Drums? I have looked around to no avail.
I am in the process of loading up samples for Logic and am sorely in
need of accoustic 
drums.


thanks

Paul Najar wrote: 

>
> The big crunch with this way is that you loose your plugin delay 
> compensation. This is a real pain when using the Mixtend drums since 
> the ambient drum versions rely on sample accuracy for phase alignment.



I am using Logic PC so I think the PCD thing is moot for me.


>
> > 3. You can also load the whole kit into multiple instances and send 
> > only Kick
> > midi parts to one and only Snare midi parts to the next etc - ie 
> > multiple midi
> > sequences - not so great for hyperediting. The additional instances of 
> > the kit
> > use no additional RAM but the extra instances of the EXS24 do I 
> > believe.
>
> This is my preferred method. Even way before EXS when using hardware 
> multitimbral drum boxes I preferred to have each drum sound on it's own 
> midi channel so it was always quick to globally edit one sound - either 
> in the box or the midi data. It also allows me to use the EXS filter 
> and amplitude envelope - which is also a time saver in that you don't 
> need to save edited versions of a stock kit. It's all done when you 
> save the song.


Yes - if you want to use the filters and envelopes this is the best way (filter
offsets etc are less powerful). This is the most compelling advantage of
splitting to separate instances. I like to see the whole pattern in the
hypereditor when I am programming so it is a bit fiddly in that I need to edit
one pattern and copy the sequence to the other instrument channels. 

It is a shame Logic has not followed Cubase/Nuendo in offering presets for
sections of the mixer so that you can set up a complete multi-instrument set
with all FX and sends and recall it.

Regards,
Murray

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "blearyeyes2004" <dan@i...> wrote:

> Where can I find the Mixtend Drums? I have looked around to no avail.
> I am in the process of loading up samples for Logic and am sorely in
> need of accoustic 
> drums.


www.wizoo.com - check out the "cd rom" on the left sidebar, it'll be in there somewhere. 
they also do "acoustic drums" which sound pretty cool in the mp3's. 

yellowtools also do "pure drums" which have been around a copule of years - 24 bit, all 
dry samples, and exs ready.

http://www.yellowtools.de/index2_e.htm

on a budget? how about a full 200mb stereo kit for free?

http://www.natural-studio.co.uk/ns_kit.htm

On 31/05/2004, at 3:55 PM, blearyeyes2004 wrote:

> Where can I find the Mixtend Drums? I have looked around to no avail.
> I am in the process of loading up samples for Logic and am sorely in
> need of accoustic
> drums.

www.wizoo.com



:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Murray McDowall wrote:
> I am using Logic PC so I think the PCD thing is moot for me.

No, it's not. Virtual instrument tracks + plugins on them are delay
compensated (since quite some time allready) while plugins on aux objects
aren't.
For me the convenience of having all my drums in one single instance of an
instrument (I'm not using the EXS btw, for drums there's nothing worse)
usually outweighs the need for sample accuracy though. Sure, using plugins
such as some Waves compressors on an aux object would not exactly work, so,
in such a case I may just copy the instrument.
The bad thing here is that extracting MIDI notes by pitch from a single MIDI
drum sequence is still working in a way that would make me laugh if it
wasn't that sad...

Sascha

On 31/05/2004, at 8:04 PM, Sascha Franck wrote:

> For me the convenience of having all my drums in one single instance 
> of an
> instrument (I'm not using the EXS btw, for drums there's nothing worse)
> usually outweighs the need for sample accuracy though.

If I'm not using instruments that require many samples to be phase 
aligned I'm almost inclined to agree here. But I still find it more of 
a hassle having to save song specific drum instruments than I do to 
have multiple EXS instances and have immediate access without thinking 
if I choose to the EXS filters and envelopes on a per sound basis. 
Perhaps if DSP resources were an issue I might feel different. But 
they're not on my Quicksilver Dual 1GHZ G4/ UAD-1/ RME Multiface/ OS 
9.2.2. And I've also got to say that I LOVE knowing, for sure, that if 
I go and check the sample start in the audio editor and put the midi 
event on the beat that that sound is TRULY on the beat. I know, "use 
your ears" and all that, and I do, but having a true point of reference 
reduces mental clutter or doubt, and this, I must say is usually my 
ultimate criteria. YMMV

> Sure, using plugins
> such as some Waves compressors on an aux object would not exactly 
> work, so,
> in such a case I may just copy the instrument.
> The bad thing here is that extracting MIDI notes by pitch from a 
> single MIDI
> drum sequence is still working in a way that would make me laugh if it
> wasn't that sad...

What's your gripe about it.? Agreed it could be better but it's way 
from unusable....

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

On a fine day, 30-05-2004, Save the Universe wrote:

>realisticly, if a song takes advantage of 10 drum sounds, using 
>multiple outs with only 1 instance of EXS (one kit for the whole 
>song) would be 1/10th of the CPU load.

That shouldn't be true.  What counts is the number of voices and not 
the number of instances (minus a possible very slight overhead per 
instance).  So a 10 voice sequence played by one EXS should take up 
as much CPU as 10 1-voice sequences played by 10 EXS's.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

I wrote:
> > The bad thing here is that extracting MIDI notes by pitch from a
> > single MIDI
> > drum sequence is still working in a way that would make me laugh if it
> > wasn't that sad...

Paul Najar replied:
> What's your gripe about it.? Agreed it could be better but it's way
> from unusable....

When recording/programming a drumtrack (on one single track that is) I
usually end up with sequences containing at least 5 notes (most often more).
Now, usually I also have more than just one sequence on that track (and, for
obvious formal reasons, I don't want to glue these together), let's say an
average songe might contain around 20 sequences - could easily be way more.
When you select your drum sequences and do a "demix by note pitch" Logic
will create one new track per found note (which is what you'd suspect, fine
so far...) but it will also do this for EACH and EVERY sequence found on
that drumtrack!
So, in the above mentioned scenario I will end up with 5x20 new tracks in my
arrangement! That's 100 new tracks, all with rather small sequences on
them!!! I really can't see this being too much useful... let alone that
there's no Logic behind the procedure at all - plus, I easily end up having
more individual notes per sequence, and a whole lot more sequences in a song
too, so ending up with around 200+ new tracks would not be so unlikely to
happen.
Just take a look at this:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/exs/Orig.jpg
That's only 4 sequences, each containing 5 notes - almost nothing.
Now take a look at the demix by note pitch result:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/exs/Result.jpg
FWIW, Cubase does it exactly the same way and so far I haven't found anybody
being able to explain this silly behaviour to me.
But (and that's a BIG but!), Cubase does at least have some Logical Edit
(pretty much the same as Logic's Transformer) function called "extract to
selected track" which is highly useful, especially whenever you only need to
have one single note (let's say your snare) extracted for special
treatments.

> I know, "use
> your ears" and all that, and I do, but having a true point of reference
> reduces mental clutter or doubt, and this, I must say is usually my
> ultimate criteria. YMMV

Well, in a way you're right, but usually I still prefer to trust my ears
(whether that's a good or bad idea is an entirely different story... ;o))

Regards,
Sascha

Sascha Franck wrote: 
>
> > I am using Logic PC so I think the PCD thing is moot for me.
>
> No, it's not. Virtual instrument tracks + plugins on them are delay
> compensated (since quite some time allready) while plugins on aux objects
> aren't.



Hi Sascha,

OK -  thanks for the clarification I knew there was some compensation. 
It doesn't cope with SIR though - 


>
> For me the convenience of having all my drums in one single instance of an
> instrument 


Yes - makes life a lot easier doesn't it.

>
> (I'm not using the EXS btw, for drums there's nothing worse)


LOL - I find that for untuned drums EXS24 sounds good and is extremely stable
and low on CPU.
I would have to agree that programming kits in the EXS24 is tiresome though. 

I use DR008 for some of these kits and things like the Randomiser and
Alternator are great for exploiting the L/R hits in DFH for example. There
seems to be a CPU penalty for using DR 008 UltraSampler based kits compared to
the same multi-sampled kit in EXS24. Is DR008 your preferred sampler for drums?

In any case these soft sampler based kits like the Mixtended Set are well
behind the state of the art  - BFD and DFH Superior are light years ahead in
terms of realism and ambience.

Regards,
Murray

>On 29/05/2004, at 6:15 PM, Save the Universe wrote:
>
>>  thanks to everyone for their feedback so far.  when putting the
>>  Mixtend Drums into EXS, will they be pre-grouped accordingly?
>>  for example, will all of the cymbals of a given kit be grouped
>>  together so that i can easily route them to different outputs
>  > when mixing?

If not, it's trivially easy to assign them to the same group and then 
assign the group to individual output pairs. Take a peek at the 
manual if you can't figure it out by poking around.

From: Paul Najar <paulnajar@...>

>Why not use as many instances of EXS as
>you need outs and simply add the plugins on the instruments themselves?

Because you don't get all the drums up on the same keyboard that way. 
I use KAT pads a good part of the time, and when I'm not doing that I 
play the parts in. Having the bd and sn on separate tracks wouldn't 
work.
-- 
___
Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, fax -5434, cell 590-9101

From: "Save the Universe" <mail@...>

>sing multiple outs with only 1 instance of EXS
>(one kit for the whole
>song) would be 1/10th of the CPU load.

I don't think that's true, but the difference is insignificant if it 
is. My Autoload has 64 stereo native EXSs,12 stereo TDM EXSs, three 
Kontakts, etc. and it zips along no problem.
-- 
___
Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, fax -5434, cell 590-9101

Murray McDowall wrote:
> OK -  thanks for the clarification I knew there was some compensation.
> It doesn't cope with SIR though -

Unfortunately it doesn't, what a shame. But from what it says on his
website, Stefan Knufinke (SIR programmer) is just about to code a zero (or
let that be almost zero) latency version, so finally it might make sense
using SIR on a bus.
Btw, in case anybody's looking for some impulse responses:
http://www.noisevault.com/ and http://www.echochamber.ch have quite some.

> LOL - I find that for untuned drums EXS24 sounds good and is extremely
stable
> and low on CPU.
> I would have to agree that programming kits in the EXS24 is tiresome
though.

I can't say that the CPU hunger of DR-008 or Battery make me worry at all.
They might be a bit more consumptive but it never got in my way at all yet
(I haven't actually measured anything in a while, I find it pretty hard to
make my 3GHz CPU choke).

> Is DR008 your preferred sampler for drums?

Actually, it all depends on the situation.

- DR-008: Great for ease of use (exchanging samples is just as fast as it
could be), great for it's electronic sounds, not so great for velocity
layered sounds (regarding that the EXS IMO wins), not so great because
there's no global filter (the Ultra Sampler filter doesn't sound too good
either), not so great because you can't edit a bunch of notes at a time.
Btw., I got a personally coded polyphonic version of the EasySampler DLL
(the original is monophonic), contact me off list if you want it (I am
allowed to give it away).

- Battery: So-so-ish ease of use (e.g.: non-resizeable open dialogs, how
uberlame is that when dealing with large directories? When there's 128 MIDI
notes, how much sense does it make to limit yourself to 54 cells?), no
filter at all, a nightmare to setup velocity layers, easy use with multiple
outs, great options to tweak multiple cells at once.

- EXS: Totally nightmare-ish approach regarding patch management (actually
by far the worst of all soft samplers), editing isn't exactly fast and/or
intuitive, great sounding and rather flexible filter, elegant GUI.

So, after all I find myself using all the three of them, DR-008 for anything
I need quickly, Battery to drag'n'drop recycled loops (and their MIDI files)
onto it (it's just nice being able to detune the complete loop instantly),
the EXS for recycled loops in case I may need a filter and for certain
multilayered patches.
Oh, and of course I also use Battery because it's cross-platform (let's see
about Druim 9, which is supposed to load DR-008 patches).

Actually, I find it rather annyoing that there's nothing doing it all in
one.

> In any case these soft sampler based kits like the Mixtended Set are well
> behind the state of the art  - BFD and DFH Superior are light years ahead
in
> terms of realism and ambience.

I have only played around with BFD on a friends machine and must say that I
was highly impressed. Not too sure whether I need it though. These days I
have quite some options to record real drums which is more fun as well (at
least I think so).

Regards,
Sascha

On a fine day, 31-05-2004, Nick Batzdorf wrote:

>   From: "Save the Universe" <mail@...>
>
>>sing multiple outs with only 1 instance of EXS
>>(one kit for the whole
>>song) would be 1/10th of the CPU load.
>
>I don't think that's true, but the difference is insignificant if it
>is.

That's why I said sometyhing like "minus a minor overhead per instance".

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

On 01/06/2004, at 2:50 AM, Nick Batzdorf wrote:

> Because you don't get all the drums up on the same keyboard that way.
> I use KAT pads a good part of the time, and when I'm not doing that I
> play the parts in. Having the bd and sn on separate tracks wouldn't
> work.

For sure in some instances you're right but I'm doing a lot of acoustic 
drum programming right now using and loving the Wizoo Mixtend library - 
which is kind of where this thread came out of - and when using  a full 
kit like this in the way described you do get the full kit available on 
every channel. You just have to "demix by note pitch" after performing.



:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

On 31/05/2004, at 9:55 PM, Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote:

> That shouldn't be true.  What counts is the number of voices and not
> the number of instances (minus a possible very slight overhead per
> instance).  So a 10 voice sequence played by one EXS should take up
> as much CPU as 10 1-voice sequences played by 10 EXS's.
>

Good point Hendrick. This is something I forgot to mention. You have to 
reduce the number of voices assigned per instance and if you playback 
the sequence with the exs open it displays in  real time how many 
voices are being used at any moment - allowing you to accurately set 
the number of voices required.



:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Very well put Sascha. I see your point. I've run into these issues 
myself. Hopefully Emapple is listening right now. The only suggestion I 
can add is - do you know about the "Move Selected To Track" command? I 
think it's keystroke only from memory. It's possibly one of my most 
favorite commands in logic. It's very handy when compiling vocals and 
would also help a lot in the situation here.

When you extract by note pitch you get a mess like your second screen 
shot. If I'm not mistaken Logic extracts from lowest note to high - so 
if you had 8 sequences, each with the same five notes you would end up 
with 40 tracks after the extraction. Select the track you want all the 
lowest note number to be on then shift click all the first sequences in 
each of the extraction groups and invoke the command and they all jump 
to the previously selected track in one go. Go through and do the same 
for the rest. When you get used to this way of working you can save a 
lot of time.

This is of course no substitute for Emagic improving/ fixing the 
functionality of this command.

On 01/06/2004, at 12:55 AM, Sascha Franck wrote:

> When recording/programming a drumtrack (on one single track that is) I
> usually end up with sequences containing at least 5 notes (most often 
> more).
>
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

hello,

thanks again to everyone's input on drums in EXS.

i used to have an old Roland R8MKII which had some of my favorite electronic
drum sounds on it. does anyone know of a 24-bit sample library that contains
all of the presets from this drum machine?  any usable format would be fine
with me for this one...

thanks in advance,
jon z.
http://www.jonzaremba.com
---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> i used to have an old Roland R8MKII which had some of my favorite electronic
> drum sounds on it. does anyone know of a 24-bit sample library that contains
> all of the presets from this drum machine?  any usable format would be fine
> with me for this one...

There's a Battery kit on KVR-VST that supposedly is just that. I use it in
Battery, but I'm sure you could use the sounds in EXS too. Don't know if it's
24 bit or not, but it sounds good to me, and it's free.

http://www.kvr-vst.com/bank.php?getbank=83

=====
"You blow in this end of the trombone, 
and sound comes out the other end and 
disrupts the cosmos."
Roswell Rudd

Check out Pat's music 
http://www.pbone.org/


	
		
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