EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

If you like to create realistic drum kits, please read my following 
wishes:

1) Ability to create more realistic and playable drum samples: allow 
multiple samples to be alloted to each zone, then the ability to 
assign random playback of those samples within that zone.  We can 
then use a bunch of, say, medium drum hits in a zone defined as 
velocity 90-110, hard hits in another zone with velocity 11-126, 
soft hits in a zone defined as velocity 0-89, and heres the kicker: 
make a separate zone for velocity 127 so that the hardest hit 
randomly plays back its own special set of thwacks.  This 
functionality would and should be the ultimate way to produce super-
realistic snares.

2) Expanded functionality of hi-hat grouping such that a closed hit 
turns off an open one, BUT at the same time, a closed hit does not 
turn off a closed hit.  The unrealistic-sounding deficiencies of the 
EXS24 are even more glaring when an open hit shuts off an open hit.  
Another wish: the ability to determine HOW drastically a hat shuts 
off another, for example by defining a fade out for the hit that 
gets shut off.

3) Faster way to select multiple zones at once and change parameters 
for all selected zones (e.g., velocity zones, check boxes, etc.) by 
option-clicking.  Doing it one zone at a time is a huge expense of 
time.  I know this one's a no-brainer, but please read on...

4) Rubberband selection of zones on the keyboard.  Geez.  No brainer.

5) The ability to assign parameters to incoming samples that you 
import with the multiple sample import window.  For example, be able 
to set the group #, and any zone parameters.  Working with the EXS24 
with multiple samples is tedious and time-consuming.

Any comments are appreciated.

David Gowing

I wonder if Kontact begins to address some of these (very good) suggestions.
-Jer

> From: "dangcookie" <dangcookie@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:06:21 -0000
> To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [exs] EXS24 Wish List for more realistic drum kit prorgramming
> param's
> 
> If you like to create realistic drum kits, please read my following
> wishes:
> 
> 1) Ability to create more realistic and playable drum samples: allow
> multiple samples to be alloted to each zone, then the ability to
> assign random playback of those samples within that zone.  We can
> then use a bunch of, say, medium drum hits in a zone defined as
> velocity 90-110, hard hits in another zone with velocity 11-126,
> soft hits in a zone defined as velocity 0-89, and heres the kicker:
> make a separate zone for velocity 127 so that the hardest hit
> randomly plays back its own special set of thwacks.  This
> functionality would and should be the ultimate way to produce super-
> realistic snares.
> 
> 2) Expanded functionality of hi-hat grouping such that a closed hit
> turns off an open one, BUT at the same time, a closed hit does not
> turn off a closed hit.  The unrealistic-sounding deficiencies of the
> EXS24 are even more glaring when an open hit shuts off an open hit.
> Another wish: the ability to determine HOW drastically a hat shuts
> off another, for example by defining a fade out for the hit that
> gets shut off.
> 
> 3) Faster way to select multiple zones at once and change parameters
> for all selected zones (e.g., velocity zones, check boxes, etc.) by
> option-clicking.  Doing it one zone at a time is a huge expense of
> time.  I know this one's a no-brainer, but please read on...
> 
> 4) Rubberband selection of zones on the keyboard.  Geez.  No brainer.
> 
> 5) The ability to assign parameters to incoming samples that you
> import with the multiple sample import window.  For example, be able
> to set the group #, and any zone parameters.  Working with the EXS24
> with multiple samples is tedious and time-consuming.
> 
> Any comments are appreciated.
> 
> David Gowing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>

Thoughts from the mind of dangcookie, 07-11-2002:

>1) Ability to create more realistic and playable drum samples: allow
>multiple samples to be alloted to each zone, then the ability to
>assign random playback of those samples within that zone.  We can
>then use a bunch of, say, medium drum hits in a zone defined as
>velocity 90-110, hard hits in another zone with velocity 11-126,
>soft hits in a zone defined as velocity 0-89, and heres the kicker:
>make a separate zone for velocity 127 so that the hardest hit
>randomly plays back its own special set of thwacks.  This
>functionality would and should be the ultimate way to produce super-
>realistic snares.

If you load multiple EXS's with identical zone/velocity definitions, 
but slightly different samples (i.e. all have a snare assigned to D2, 
with 4 velo-layers, but separate instruments use 4 different snares 
each), then it wouldn't be too hard to build an environment patch 
that routes incoming notes to a random instance of the EXS each time. 
Wouldn't work for live-use though, due to the fact that Logic can't 
handle multiple VSTi's live.  But it would work for recorded 
midid-tracks.

>2) Expanded functionality of hi-hat grouping such that a closed hit
>turns off an open one, BUT at the same time, a closed hit does not
>turn off a closed hit.  The unrealistic-sounding deficiencies of the
>EXS24 are even more glaring when an open hit shuts off an open hit. 

AFAIK _all_ samplers share this "glaring deficiency".  A completely 
obvious workaround is to not have hihat groups at all, and have 'one 
shot' switched off for hats.  That means that hats will sound as long 
as the midinote lasts.  Set release to a fairly short time.  That way 
you can determine 'by hand' when/if a note switches off.  Sounds like 
a lot of matrix-work, but it actually isn't that bad if you give it 
some thought.

>3) Faster way to select multiple zones at once and change parameters
>for all selected zones (e.g., velocity zones, check boxes, etc.) by
>option-clicking.  Doing it one zone at a time is a huge expense of
>time.  I know this one's a no-brainer, but please read on...
>
>4) Rubberband selection of zones on the keyboard.  Geez.  No brainer.

Agreed.

>5) The ability to assign parameters to incoming samples that you
>import with the multiple sample import window.  For example, be able
>to set the group #, and any zone parameters.  Working with the EXS24
>with multiple samples is tedious and time-consuming.

Things like assigning multiple zones to a group can be done by 
option-selecting the group in the zone-box, which will set all 
selected zones to that group.  Not _the_ solution, but currently the 
best way to deal with this stuff.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

> >2) Expanded functionality of hi-hat grouping such that a closed 
hit
> >turns off an open one, BUT at the same time, a closed hit does not
> >turn off a closed hit.  The unrealistic-sounding deficiencies of 
the
> >EXS24 are even more glaring when an open hit shuts off an open 
hit. 

I don't really see the physical logic in this. If I hit a real 
closed hi-hat, say with the pedal down at a medium strength so that 
it lasts for a second or so, and then I wack it again, I can't see 
how the hi-hat could continue to vibrate from the initial strike now 
that I've hit it again, in realitly it would "reset" itself due to 
the second hit. That said...any ambience in the background would 
not "reset" itself, it would bleed over.

How can a "monophonic" instrument be realistically represented by a 
sampler set to a polyphonic mode?

I find when dry hi-hats bleed overtop of each other it sounds 
unnatural and messy.

I certainly see the validity to the randomness features requested 
though.

Just my opinion, please correct me if I'm wrong :)

In a message dated 11/7/02 1:35:39 AM, h@... writes:

>AFAIK _all_ samplers share this "glaring deficiency".

Roland 5080 has polyphonic exclusive groups.....works great and it DOES make 
a gigantic difference in realistic hi-hat programming.

Check out our Dynamic Drum Kits expansion board that we (Spectrasonics) made 
for Roland for an example.

-EP

In a message dated 11/7/02 3:21:46 AM, jdyck@... writes:

>I find when dry hi-hats bleed overtop of each other it sounds 
>unnatural and messy.
>
>I certainly see the validity to the randomness features requested 
>though.
>
>Just my opinion, please correct me if I'm wrong :)

Yep...your wrong. Any percussive instrument that decays is by nature 
polyphonic. What is unnatural is a sampler sound that completely cuts off 
it's ambience and decay. Try playing a real open hi-hat in a rock setting and 
then try the same thing monophonically on your EXS, then try it 
polyphonically. Polyphony is important for sounds that decay.

-EP

Re: 
> If you load multiple EXS's with identical zone/velocity 
definitions, 
> but slightly different samples (i.e. all have a snare assigned to 
D2, 
> with 4 velo-layers, but separate instruments use 4 different 
snares 
> each), then it wouldn't be too hard to build an environment patch 
> that routes incoming notes to a random instance of the EXS each 
time. 

Clever, but I didn't think you could play multiple Audio instruments 
at once, or is it that I simply can't play an audio instrument and 
an external midi device (e.g., my K2500) at the same time (darn it --
 Emagic is killing me with this one).  And of course, there's the 
little issue that your suggested method is a, ahem, pain in the 
ass.  ;-)  But a valiant effort!  I, of course, am simply 
recommending things that Emagic should really consider implementing 
to make their very simplistic EXS24 much better.

> >2) Expanded functionality of hi-hat grouping such that a closed 
hit
> >turns off an open one, BUT at the same time, a closed hit does not
> >turn off a closed hit.  
>  A completely 
> obvious workaround is to not have hihat groups at all, and 
have 'one 
> shot' switched off for hats.  

I know, but there's that whole "pain in the arse" issue again.  I 
play the kits live into Logic, and I've tried holding open hats like 
this, and it ain't easy or accurate.  Again, I'm only making 
recommendations to make the EXS24 easier, more efficient, and more 
powerful.

David

--- In exs-users@y..., "nozehed" <jdyck@b...> wrote:
> > >2) Expanded functionality of hi-hat grouping such that a closed 
> hit
> I don't really see the physical logic in this. If I hit a real 
> closed hi-hat, say with the pedal down at a medium strength so 
that 
> it lasts for a second or so, and then I wack it again, I can't see 
> how the hi-hat could continue to vibrate from the initial strike 
now 
> that I've hit it again, in realitly it would "reset" itself due to 
> the second hit. That said...any ambience in the background would 
> not "reset" itself, it would bleed over.

Your physical analysis is not complete.  The timbre of the initial 
strike does not entirely dissipate when you make the next hit.  
Plus, and even more importantly, if the sample has any room 
ambience, that room reflection still exists when you hit the next 
strike.  But don't take my word for it, listen to realistic hihat 
samples, and play some hats in succession and just listen to the 
first hat get abruptly cut off.  That ain't how god intended it.

> I find when dry hi-hats bleed overtop of each other it sounds 
> unnatural and messy.

That's why I suggested a parameter to adjust the fade out of the 
sample that gets cut off, because it can get messy sounding with 
some hat samples.

David

From: <PersingEP@...>
> Roland 5080 has polyphonic exclusive groups.....works great and it DOES
make
> a gigantic difference in realistic hi-hat programming.

As said, Joe (Albano) recently posted some kickass trick on how to
workaround this (serious!) EXS (and any other virtual drum sampler)
limitation.

Assuming that the only hats you really want to close your open/halfopen hats
are closed and pedal ones (which makes perfect sense to me) you just gotta
raise the overall polyphony (to 3-4 or so) for the "mute group" in question
and add some "fake sample" zones to the closed/pedal keys. Works perfectly,
I just tried the other day.

Again as said, this has got to be the best tip since ages.

Cheers,
Sascha

Thoughts from the mind of dangcookie, 07-11-2002:

>Re:
>>  If you load multiple EXS's with identical zone/velocity
>  > definitions, but slightly different samples (i.e. all have
>  > a snare assigned to D2, with 4 velo-layers, but separate
>  > instruments use 4 different snares each), then it wouldn't
>  > be too hard to build an environment patch that routes
>  > incoming notes to a random instance of the EXS each time.
>
>Clever, but I didn't think you could play multiple Audio instruments
>at once,

That's what I said later in my mail: you can't play such a setup 
live, since Logic only allows live-input tobe routed to one VSTi. 
You can however (as I also mentioned :) use such a setup for non-live 
use -- i.e. use it to "humanize" recorded (midi) drum tracks.

>And of course, there's the little issue that your suggested method 
>is a, ahem, pain in the ass.  ;-)

Why?  Setting up 4 EXS channel strips isn't that hard...  and the 
env. patch should be fairly simple.

>But a valiant effort!  I, of course, am simply recommending things 
>that Emagic should really consider implementing to make their very 
>simplistic EXS24 much better.

Yes, I understood that much :-).  I, however, only try to come up 
with solutions that actually work right now, today :-))  Feature 
suggestions are great, obviously, but at the same time you try to 
make music today, right?  And features such as these could take a 
long time before being implemented (if ever).

>  >  A completely obvious workaround is to not have hihat groups at all, and
>  > have 'one shot' switched off for hats. 
>
>I know, but there's that whole "pain in the arse" issue again.

Agreed...  But again I just try to come up with stuff that works, 
instead of dreams that don't :-).

BTW, I think that this hihat-workaround is indeed way more cumbersome 
than the "randomize multiple EXS instances" workaround is...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

> As said, Joe (Albano) recently posted some kickass trick on how to
> workaround this
> Assuming that the only hats you really want to close your 
open/halfopen hats
> are closed and pedal ones (which makes perfect sense to me) you 
just gotta
> raise the overall polyphony (to 3-4 or so) for the "mute group" in 
question
> and add some "fake sample" zones to the closed/pedal keys. Works 
perfectly,

This took me a while to understand what you were getting at, then 
kaboom -- I understood.  Excellent workaround!  Thank you!

David

>If you like to create realistic drum kits, please read my following
>wishes:

David,

The funny thing is everything you mentioned is really easily done in 
code. Much easier than writing the DSP code to play back the samples 
etc...

I wonder if MAX could do such a thing really easily.

If Emagic were to "open up" their front end for their plug ins, this 
type of thing would be possible by 3rd party developers.

Aron

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