The Logic Off Topic list

Why is it the Israeli's blame Arafat for any disturbance that is caused 
by any of the millions of Palestinians? They assume he has absolute 
control every individual? From what I hear, he is barely clinging to 
power, many of the people support Hamas and Hezbolah with their radical 
ideas. Arafat is their best chance for peace believe it or not. And 
calling him a terrorist is pretty hypcritical - considering what Sharon 
has done with raids on Arab civilians and the refugee camp massacres - 
many consider him a class A war criminal. And yet he is invited to the 
White House twice and Arafat not at all.

>> #2. The US cannot control the Israelis or the Palestinians.  The US
>> has been trying to use what influence it has over Israel for years to
>> get them to lighten up on the Palestinians, because among other
>> things, Israeli belligerence causes the US problems as well, but
>> every time things start to move in a positive direction extremists on
>> one side or the other start killing people.  It is ridiculous to
>> blame the US for that.  But don't let that stop you. It never stops
>> anyone else.
>On the Night of Spetember 11th, 3 Palestinian villiges where invaded at
>night, 30 people killed and dozens injured all with American weapons and TAX
>money, It only took some serious phone calls to Sharon and Gang to cool it
>down....

Hey,

Its because the current Israeli government consisting of Sharon and his
followers has NO peace or political Agenda AT ALL, every time there is a
chance for talking they will run away from it, just yesterday Sharon
cancelled a meeting between his prime minister and Arafat for the 5th time
in the last moment,its always easy to find excuses if war is the only thing
in your head....  Sharon puts it all on on Arafat due to some personal
memories between the two men "in the Lebanon war he could not finish him off
with a good excuse,so now the public agenda for Sharon is RE-Occupy
everything, expand the settlements then have Palestinians face the
statuesque policy and turn there villages into little holes disconnected
from each other while the settlements grow "MOST are empty now:)". Sharon is
being currently sued in Belgium for Mascaras against 3000 poor civilian
refugees in  Lebanon, the man has nothing but right wingers and settlers
supporting him, his idea is security for peace NOT land for peace, meaning
that if the Palestinians do not except his proposition they can expect
military power until they surrender to his demands, and when the US keeps
quite and worse biased, you can expect the whole place to be boiling,
because Sharon understands this as a green light for his actions, I am all
for peace, but this world is so un-just and Bush has NO clue about anything,
sorry if I offended some, but like I said before, I have nothing but
sympathy and respect towards the American people, and I doubt that the
majorty have the time or knows what goes in the outside politics......

Marc,

I suggest we dig into the source of the problems before making meaningless
claims;

1-THE WEST BANK, EAST JERUSALEM ,GAZA are OCCCCCCCCUUUUUUUPIED LANDs under
international LAW and united nations.
2-poor ISRAEL needs to MOVE OUT and take its Settlers AWAY, before it claims
its a peaceful nation and all the savage Arabs are against it
3-There will never be peace if the US backs Israel blindly
4-I am not expecting you to love Arafat "I don¹t", but as Palestinians there
are 100s of other leaders that can replace him when it comes to the
Palestinian cause or question, it may be not as democratic as your district
congressman, but Palestinians are considered a threat even to the arab world
because we have political parties from all sides of the spectrum, so PLEASE
do your homework before jumping into stereotypical false accusations.
5- I said the Majority of the public in the US does not care much about
foreign policy and whom the US is backing, THIS is not an attack against
Americans as you tried to make it sound like, its just my opinion so please
don¹t try to pull a cheap shot, I have stated clearly that I have nothing
against the American people but I think that most of them were not up to
date on whom there governments/tax money are supporting, otherwise the US
would have not supported Bin Laden, Saddam in the past, neither did Israel
support Hamas in the late 80s hoping to replace the PLO.....


Peace

Bashar

> From: GAmoore@...
>
> Why is it the Israeli's blame Arafat for any disturbance that is caused
> by any of the millions of Palestinians? They assume he has absolute
> control every individual?

Don't know how you came to that conclusion...

>From what I hear, he is barely clinging to
> power, many of the people support Hamas and Hezbolah with their radical
> ideas.

It's clear that these days, he's one of the moderates.

> Arafat is their best chance for peace believe it or not.

Which doesn't take away from his actions past or present.

>And 
> calling him a terrorist is pretty hypcritical - considering what Sharon
> has done with raids on Arab civilians and the refugee camp massacres -

It's not hypocritical to name a terrorist because another one is too...

> many consider him a class A war criminal. And yet he is invited to the
> White House twice and Arafat not at all.

Really?

http://www.state.gov/www/regions/nea/peace_chron.html
http://www11.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/30/wh.peres.visit/

He's been to Camp David and Washington a number of times.

> From: LogicBaby <basharar@...>
>
>I have nothing but
> sympathy and respect towards the American people, and I doubt that the
> majorty have the time or knows what goes in the outside politics......

You're not showing respect if you assume we're all ignorant...

The thing about most Americans, is we're willing to both support and
criticize our leaders (heck, some of us even vote, and write our congress
people!) - I haven't heard any criticism from you about your own people's
policies when asked... seems to me, that's why the middle east is so screwed
up.  People grow up so brainwashed that their side is absolutely right, for
generation after generation, until it's in their blood, and they can't take
an individual viewpoint.

Personally, I think Sharon is a scary guy, almost radical right wing... but
when your moderate prime minister is assassinated, who's going to run?  It's
obvious at this point that if it weren't for the US, there would be a
massive war in the Middle East, of Israel vs. everyone else, and probably
someone would get nuked, and definitely Israel would be wiped off the face
of the earth.  So, if the US is forced into supporting someone they might
find distasteful, who can you blame?   I'd say, no side is without blame in
that situation.  Is the fact that Sharon is acting like the little brother,
when the big brother steps into the fight, hiding under his arm and sticking
his toungue out at his adversary, enough to abandon him?  No.  But he should
be bitch-slapped.  The fact that he took action hours after the WTC bombing
was a cynical move.  You can see that, once the US found out about it, he
had to immediately stop, but of course there were repercussions.  He's not a
smart guy.  I'm afraid, these days, in the middle east reason is quickly
flying out the window.

>> From: LogicBaby <basharar@...>

>You're not showing respect if you assume we're all ignorant...
>
>The thing about most Americans, is we're willing to both support and
>criticize our leaders (heck, some of us even vote, and write our congress
>people!) - I haven't heard any criticism from you about your own people's
>policies when asked... seems to me, that's why the middle east is so screwed
>up.  People grow up so brainwashed that their side is absolutely right, for
>generation after generation, until it's in their blood, and they can't take
>an individual viewpoint.

And of course no American would ever display such characteristics...
'You're not showing respect if you assume they're all ignorant either...

S.

> From: Spectro <spectro@...>
> 
> And of course no American would ever display such characteristics...

I never said nor implied that.

> 'You're not showing respect if you assume they're all ignorant either...

I never said nor implied I either respected them or assumed they were all
ignorant.

Hi there, I am not blaming the US for obomba bin laden's or Saddams Actions,
not at all, I blame the US for knowing what they are about and supporting
them in the first place because it might have fitted there "interests" at
the time. Like the new Dictator in Pakistan, he is a good guy now and
sanctions are lifted instantly .......

> This is something I keep hearing over and over again. Just becuase the US
> gives money to someone doesn't mean iit made that person or group what
> they are. Iraq invaded Iran on its own, then they got support, then they
> invaded Kuwait. Obomba Sin Laden said he hated the US even as they took
> our money and weapons. They are what they are, and have their attitudes
> before the US ever knew them. So don't blame the US for every criminal we
> ever give money to.

>> Why is it the Israeli's blame Arafat for any disturbance that is caused
>> by any of the millions of Palestinians? They assume he has absolute
>> control every individual?
>
>Don't know how you came to that conclusion...

Sharon keeps cancelling talks with Arafat - despite Bush's appeals to 
move forward on the peace front. He always gives the excuse that the 
violence has not stopped. He acts like every stone thrown by millions of 
angry people, is his fault. Also the Israeli military targets Arafats 
governent offices and police stations for rocket and tank attacks. 

Shimon Perez, Barak, and of course the guy that was assasinated, are at 
least interested in peace to some real extent. Sharon is an evil guy. I 
would be afraid to have him as a guest of the White House as he has been 
twice in the past months.

Why can't the Israelis see that it is in their best interest to have 
peace. A prosperous thriving Palestian homeland would be the best buffer 
against terror. Who wants to commit a suicide bombing when you have a 
good life? No one. But who wants to, when you have nothing left to lose? 
... ergo you see what is happening now. There is only so much you can 
oppress and crush a people until they react as they have.

>I think that most of them were not up to
>date on whom there governments/tax money are supporting, otherwise the US
>would have not supported Bin Laden, Saddam in the past

This is something I keep hearing over and over again. Just becuase the US 
gives money to someone doesn't mean iit made that person or group what 
they are. Iraq invaded Iran on its own, then they got support, then they 
invaded Kuwait. Obomba Sin Laden said he hated the US even as they took 
our money and weapons. They are what they are, and have their attitudes 
before the US ever knew them. So don't blame the US for every criminal we 
ever give money to. 

The US helped Russia during WWII with supplies and tanks. Are we then to 
blame for everything Russia has done such as subjugating Easter Europe 
for 40 years?

NO I never claimed a thing, Neither Sharon or Arafat are angels, so what's
your point?!!
> 
> I asked you only one question - if you claim Arafat is innocent of any
> terrorist action.


Look, I don¹t care what religion, color or cult you are, You can love Israel
all you want but please don¹t even equate Anti-Israeli with Anti-US, I have
SAID very clearly that I am not against the people of the US so don¹t try to
even accuse me of that,  I just doubt that the majority cares or knows whom
there government have supported with there tax money at some point "Saddam,
Bin Laden and Sharon", is my statement anti-American?

> In fact, that's really all I've heard from you is anti-Israeli and anti-US
> rhetoric.
> 


HOW and WHEN did I claim the people know and support this, I said that I
blame the government Not the people for knowing about whom they are
supporting and that the people "a very wide hypothetical term, i.e. your
average Joe"  know little about this, so get your record straight, and don¹t
try to accuse me falsely of something I did not say again.

> First you blame the US people for not knowing what the government is doing,
> then you blame them for knowing....

 That¹s the lamest thing I've heard...
> Aren't all politics marriages of convenience?

> From: LogicBaby <basharar@...>
> 
> Marc,
> 
> I suggest we dig into the source of the problems before making meaningless
> claims;

What claims specifically are you talking about?


> 4-I am not expecting you to love Arafat "I don¹t", but as Palestinians there
> are 100s of other leaders that can replace him when it comes to the
> Palestinian cause or question, it may be not as democratic as your district
> congressman, but Palestinians are considered a threat even to the arab world
> because we have political parties from all sides of the spectrum, so PLEASE
> do your homework before jumping into stereotypical false accusations.

I asked you only one question - if you claim Arafat is innocent of any
terrorist action.

> 5- I said the Majority of the public in the US does not care much about
> foreign policy and whom the US is backing, THIS is not an attack against
> Americans as you tried to make it sound like, its just my opinion so please
> don¹t try to pull a cheap shot, I have stated clearly that I have nothing
> against the American people but I think that most of them were not up to
> date on whom there governments/tax money are supporting, otherwise the US
> would have not supported Bin Laden, Saddam in the past, neither did Israel
> support Hamas in the late 80s hoping to replace the PLO.....

This is a cheap shot - like telling a Polish joke in front of a Pole and
saying "no offense, of course... I mean the other Polacks".

If you claim to know the majority American opinion, cite a reference.
Otherwise it's more rhetoric.

In fact, that's really all I've heard from you is anti-Israeli and anti-US
rhetoric.

> From: LogicBaby <basharar@...>
> 
> Hi there, I am not blaming the US for obomba bin laden's or Saddams Actions,
> not at all, I blame the US for knowing what they are about and supporting
> them in the first place because it might have fitted there "interests" at
> the time. Like the new Dictator in Pakistan, he is a good guy now and
> sanctions are lifted instantly .......

First you blame the US people for not knowing what the government is doing,
then you blame them for knowing....

Aren't all politics marriages of convenience?  Tell me that the Palestinians
have never allied with a distasteful partner.

> The US helped Russia during WWII with supplies and tanks. Are we then to
> blame for everything Russia has done such as subjugating Easter Europe
> for 40 years?
>

It's interesting you pick this example as a lot of conservatives and hawks
did throughout the 1940s-1960s, saying FDR sold us out at Yalta.

I don't though, to be clear.

>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>I asked you only one question - if you claim Arafat is innocent of any
>terrorist action.

I would guess he is guilty of less innocent deaths than Sharon is.

> From: LogicBaby <basharar@...>

This discussion is going nowhere.  I can't get a straight answer, so I'm
dropping it.  I'm glad there are diplomats out there with more patience than
I.

>This discussion is going nowhere.  I can't get a straight answer, so I'm
>dropping it.  I'm glad there are diplomats out there with more patience than
>I.

I think the bottom line is that yes Arafat supported terrorism - 
certainly in the past, but its not clear at all now. I know of no 
evidence that Arafat ever killed anyone himself. Even Shimon Perez was on 
CNN last night as conceded that Arafat can't control every Palestinian 
with a rock in his hand or a gun.

The counter point is that Sharon is just as much a terrorist. And I don't 
just mean the political assasinations of late that take out 5 other 
innocent people for one suspected leader. He has the blood of thousands 
innocent women and children on his hands. Even now, he doesn't want 
peace, he keeps cancelling peace talks, despite pleas from Perez and from 
Bush. He is unfit to lead a country. 

So both leaders are terrorists. Thats your answer. Arafat looks more like 
a terrorist, but Sharon actually has a higher body count.

March Lindahl or Logic Baby (I do not now know who) wrote:

> >This discussion is going nowhere.
True.

>I can't get a straight answer, so I'm dropping it.
People keep on saying this. Yet nobody ever seems to drop anything.

> > I'm glad there are diplomats out there with more patience than I.

If you know where those diplomats are, then please direct them post-haste 
to the Logic O-T List.
I think we are in urgent need of them.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

when you say about sharon  that "He has the blood of thousands.." ,you're
not aware of FACTS:
1. The people who murdered  those people in Lebanon were Lebanons, motivated
by inter-lebanon fights and hates.
The thing Sharon was accused of  was he could know that this would happen.
If he was Russian British  or American this question wouldn't had arouse .  
Justice has the tendency to be with the strong. Look at what the Russian did
to chechnia, the british to folkland or what the American will do to
afganishtan. Be sure that if the same thing had happen in Israel the
American and all the world would not allow the israelies to response as they
allow the Americans.
Let me ask you - If you were in a war and had the information that two
groups ,which are your enemies might fight each other to death, would you
care ? 
I think that this thing proves that a lie ,if said enough times ,can be
mistaken to be truth. And that's the way it is.
2. You also ignore the fact that Arafat IS controlling the shooting and
killing ,at least at the Macro level.- for example:
 see the Austrian football team , they got a promise from Arafat that no
harm will be made to them. Not Sharon, not the Israeli government ,Arafat
promised them that.
Which also means that if he wants  some harm will be made to them ,otherwise
he wouldn't be asked to promise there safety.


3. As for the last "intifada" going on for the last year - 
So far there was a discussion going on whether Sharon's visit in Jerusalem
was the ignition to the "intifada" or not.
This discussion is over: 
one of arafat's man published a book , in arab language , which said that
they organized for war long before this and they grab the opportunity to
blame "Sharon" .
4. Arafat is placing his people as victims , and provoke things that will
cause lose of life.

5. And I truly believe the palestiniens deserve a country .problem is they
have to realize they don't have to destroy us if they have.
6. CNN - How can you believe a network whose reporters are palestenians ?
how can you believe a network who suppress news when the palestenians don't
approve them ? there have been numerous examples how this network is biased
. were you aware of the fact that the kid that was shut to death near his
father was actually shut to death by the Palestinians ? well I've got a job
,so I have to return working... 
7. the israelies speakers sucks ( mostly because they think , mistakenly, "
we're right and that's why we don't have to explain or speak",and the
palestenians are doing a great job. And it's shows.

 Bye
Tiran.

-----Original Message-----
From: GAmoore@... [mailto:GAmoore@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 6:43 PM
To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [L-OT] ]Goodbye/Arafat

>This discussion is going nowhere.  I can't get a straight answer, so I'm
>dropping it.  I'm glad there are diplomats out there with more patience
than
>I.

I think the bottom line is that yes Arafat supported terrorism - 
certainly in the past, but its not clear at all now. I know of no 
evidence that Arafat ever killed anyone himself. Even Shimon Perez was on 
CNN last night as conceded that Arafat can't control every Palestinian 
with a rock in his hand or a gun.

The counter point is that Sharon is just as much a terrorist. And I don't 
just mean the political assasinations of late that take out 5 other 
innocent people for one suspected leader. He has the blood of thousands 
innocent women and children on his hands. Even now, he doesn't want 
peace, he keeps cancelling peace talks, despite pleas from Perez and from 
Bush. He is unfit to lead a country. 

So both leaders are terrorists. Thats your answer. Arafat looks more like 
a terrorist, but Sharon actually has a higher body count. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Sharon was Controlling Sabra And Shatilla refugee camps when the masucure
happened, just like Slevodan Miliosovitch was in control in Bosnia and
Serbia, He segued the camps with Israeli troops so NO ONE WILL get out of
them, Provided the lightings for the killers all night, Israeli Boldoozers
to berry the innocent victims like they are animals, Even your own
governments NON biased report admits to those facts, The massacre happened
for 2 days while the camps where surrounded, all poor and innocent people
mostly women and children Killed with guns and knifes over 3000 people
massacred, there is a copy of the BBC documentary for you to watch on the
net somewhere, I will find the link. Sharon was the military commander of
the area, he even met with the militia leaders "Elieee Hebieqaaa" before the
mass massacre and organized it all..
> 1. The people who murdered  those people in Lebanon were Lebanons, motivated
> by inter-lebanon fights and hates.
Yeah, You would surround one side's refugee camp with troops, light up the
sky all night, provide bulldozers to bury the victims over there houses, and
you would make sure no one gets out, not even children so that they all get
killed and lay on the side of the streets while your bulldozers clean
up.......

> Let me ask you - If you were in a war and had the information that two
> groups ,which are your enemies might fight each other to death, would you
> care ? 
Who is lying now?!!! The Americans where outraged when the massacre
happened, and ordered Sharon to pull out of Beirut, not to mention Israeli
citizens with consciousness "left wingers mostly who demonstrated against
the blood sucker"...
> I think that this thing proves that a lie ,if said enough times ,can be
> mistaken to be truth. And that's the way it is.

This is the biggest lie of All, Sharon has convinced Israelis that
everything is under Arafats control, he controls the anger of the people,
the rage against settlers who steal there lands, the shootings, Do you think
that it will be peaceful if Arafat goes "Like Sharon dreams", you are waging
a war of extermination against a whole nation, the Palestinians need there
just rights, freedom and end of occupation of there lands, Arafat did not do
all this shameful injustice...... Its your occupying army and savage illegal
settlers and settlements, this is reality
> 2. You also ignore the fact that Arafat IS controlling the shooting and
> killing ,at least at the Macro level.- for example:
>
Have you asked yourself why are those kids very angry at you?? Why are the
Palestinians angry, I don¹t think so, even though I know you know the truth
deep down. Again you go back to "Blame it all on Arafat" propaganda while
forgetting the source of the problem "OCCUPATION of others lands and filling
it with ILLEAGAL settlements"
> 3. As for the last "intifada" going on for the last year -
> So far there was a discussion going on whether Sharon's visit in Jerusalem
> was the ignition to the "intifada" or not.
> This discussion is over:
> one of arafat's man published a book , in arab language , which said that
> they organized for war long before this and they grab the opportunity to
> blame "Sharon" .
Yeah, ARAFAT is the source of your nightmares, you have done nothing towards
the poor Palestinians other than what I listed above, SHARON Preaches to his
people that there will be no more land compensations "OR RETURN Of what is
illegally STOLEN", The Palestinians should live under the settlements
forever and there is NO LAND for peace, its Security for peace, well there
will NEVER be Peace if you don¹t give the Palestinians there rights under UN
resolutions and international laws, WITH or without Arafat, Sharon is only
going to get you more Un-security while he has NO political solution to your
problem, and is not ready to talk peace, he can blame it all on Arafat and
have people like yourself believe that lie.
> 4. Arafat is placing his people as victims , and provoke things that will
> cause lose of life.



Destroy YOU!!!! You have the second military power in the world, All
Palestinian towns are under siege, surrounded by your troops, NO cars, food
or medicine are allowed to pass, children, women and children are walking
mountains under your tank's guns, who is destroying who, AGAIN, there will
be no surrender as Sharon might like, IT is OCCUPATION, so you move out,
take the Russian and Ethiopian settlers off our lands, LIVE and LET Live,
before you go claiming to be the  innocent victims while you exercise
collective punishment on an entire nation, Peace is in your hands and you
know how to get it, END the occupation, take the settlers away....


> 5. And I truly believe the palestiniens deserve a country .problem is they
> have to realize they don't have to destroy us if they have.

ARE YOU not raciest or NOT "see your statement below", CNN is probably the
most biased towards Israel, if you think they are biased towards
Palestinians then you must be smoking Hash.... Murdock /Time Warner work for
Arafat.

> 6. CNN - How can you believe a network whose reporters are palestenians ?
> how can you believe a network who suppress news when the palestenians don't
> approve them ?
You are talking about  Muhamed Al-Durrah, the kid that was gunned down by an
Israeli sniper from a military tower, the pictures where taken by a French
photographer called Charles Anderlin, I guess he made it all up to harm your
good reputation......


 there have been numerous examples how this network is biased
> . were you aware of the fact that the kid that was shut to death near his
> father was actually shut to death by the Palestinians ? well I've got a job
> ,so I have to return working...

Its just that the current Israeli government is made up of Raciest right
wingers who really can express there emotions......you are always, always
the victims......

> 7. the israelies speakers sucks ( mostly because they think , mistakenly, "
> we're right and that's why we don't have to explain or speak",and the
> palestenians are doing a great job. And it's shows.
> 
> Bye
> Tiran.

>when you say about sharon  that "He has the blood of thousands.." ,you're
>not aware of FACTS:
>1. The people who murdered  those people in Lebanon were Lebanons, motivated
>by inter-lebanon fights and hates.
>The thing Sharon was accused of  was he could know that this would happen.

As I recall, but perhaps Bashar or someone else can give a better 
recollection, the Israeli's sealed off two refugee camps, and then 
allowed known enemies to go in and systematically kill women and children 
with no effort to stop it. And didn't he lead a raid in one of the wars, 
where he and his men personally killed 80 unarmed Arab women and children 
in their sleep ... or was that another Israeli leader. It was one of them.

>If he was Russian British  or American this question wouldn't had arouse .  
>Justice has the tendency to be with the strong. Look at what the Russian did
>to chechnia, the british to folkland or what the American will do to
>afganishtan. 

That is nonsense. There is a large outcry about what the Russians are 
doing in Chechnya. The Falklands were British lands before the Argentines 
invaded. They simply ejected the military invaders. Whats the problem 
with that? And as for the US, please wait for a single bullet to be fired 
before condemning us. Everyone speaks as if something terrible has 
happened, when in reality nothing has occured other than Afgans fighting 
Afgans.

I don't think you realize is that the Arab world blames America for the 
various misdeeds of Israel. We just paid with 6,000 lives for our strong 
support of Israel. Meanwhile Sharon keeps cancelling peace negotiatiions 
and does whatever the hell he feels like without any regard to the price 
that we pay (in lives, not to mention the $4,000,000,000 a year we give 
Israel and various military equipment). And what do we get in return?

>Be sure that if the same thing had happen in Israel the
>American and all the world would not allow the israelies to response as they
>allow the Americans.

I'm sorry, I don't know what this means. I do know that the US shields 
Israel from the condemnation of the world - not just the arabs, but even 
the Europeon countries vote against Israel often and the US vetoes many 
bills.

>Let me ask you - If you were in a war and had the information that two
>groups ,which are your enemies might fight each other to death, would you
>care ?

Maybe the Palestinians wouldn't be your enemy if you didn't steal their 
land, force them to live in squalid refugee camps without any hope.

>2. You also ignore the fact that Arafat IS controlling the shooting and
>killing ,at least at the Macro level.- for example:

Well after he promised peace with Shimon Perez the other day, Hamas 
promptly said they would not honor any cease fire. So if Arafat has no 
control over these even more militant groups what control does he have 
over every single angry Palestinian? Does he have some sort of mind 
control? Does any leader of any people control every one of them?


>3. As for the last "intifada" going on for the last year - 
>So far there was a discussion going on whether Sharon's visit in Jerusalem
>was the ignition to the "intifada" or not.
>4. Arafat is placing his people as victims , and provoke things that will
>cause lose of life.

You're missing the point. When millions of people are so angry and 
frustrated they are ready to die, then it doesn't take much to put a 
match to the powder keg. And any way you count it, the Palestinians are 
having more of their people killed. What kind of strategy is it to have 
your own people die? And then you blame them too?


>5. And I truly believe the palestiniens deserve a country .problem is they
>have to realize they don't have to destroy us if they have.

That is very fair of you. Arafat has agreed to Israel's right to exist - 
reluctantly I'm sure - but has the Israeli government agreed to the 
Palestinian's states right to exist? No. They opppose it.

Its in Israel's best interest to let these people have place to call 
home. Let them have jobs and prosperity and hope. Then they'll stop 
attacking. Then Jews and Palestinians can live in peace, and everyone 
will be happy. 

>6. CNN - How can you believe a network whose reporters are palestenians ?
>how can you believe a network who suppress news when the palestenians don't
>approve them ? there have been numerous examples how this network is biased

I see Shimon Perez, Ariel Sharon, and Bibi Netanyahu on tv or radio quite 
a bit in the past few weeks. On the other hand, no matter who the 
reporter is, does it matter? If Israel shoots a tank shell into a refugee 
camp and kills three innocent people like they did last week, does that 
make the incident untrue because of who reported it?

And regarding the Palestinian boy who may have been shot by his father, 
don't worry, there are thousands of dead Palestinians from genuine 
Israeli bullets, shells, bombs, and rockets. No matter which way that one 
case goes, it won't change the rest of the facts.

>Let me ask you - If you were in a war and had the information that two
>groups ,which are your enemies might fight each other to death, would you
>care ? 


Using this same compassionate humanistic argument, should we stop sending 
F-15's and F-16's to Israel and stop sending all the money, and simply 
let the Arabs and Israel duke it out, and see who survives, ... if anyone?

This just says it all;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/panorama/newsid_13810
00/1381328.stm



.............

Some Quotes:

*- "Sharon was a killer obsessed with hatred of Palestinians. I had promised
Arafat that his people would not get any harm. Sharon, however, ignored this
commitment entirely. Sharon's word is worthy nil."
Philip Habib, the US peace envoy, in an interview in Washington on
28/9/1982. 
  




*-  "...I have no doubt that civilians deserve punishment..."
Prime Minister Mennahem Begin, while delivering a speech at the Knesset
during the 1982 war.


"The same pattern, an initial denial, followed by apologies, and a final act
of clemency and promotion, was applied after the first historically
verifiable atrocity committed by Prime Minister Sharon.  It was at the
Palestinian village of Qibya, where Sharon's unit dynamited houses with
their inhabitants and massacred some 60 men, women and children.  After the
murders became public, Prime Minister Ben Gurion, at first, blamed rogue
Arab gangs.  When that did not wash, he blamed Arab Jews, who, he said,
being Arabs by their mentality, committed the unauthorized wild raid of
vengeance and killed the peasants.  For Sharon, it was the usual path of
roses all the way to the post of Prime Minister.  It sometimes appears that
to become the Prime Minister of Israel, it helps to have a massacre to your
name." ‹ Israel Shamir

"... as one citizen to another, Mr. Zamir, I am obliged to tell you that
there has never been, in our country or in any country, a more just military
campaign with a nobler cause than the campaign which has been so accurately
named: "The Operation for Peace in the Galilee."
Begin, in a letter to a father of an Israeli soldier who was killed in the
1982 war.

_

Pictures from the massacre:
http://www.allaboutpalestine.com/images_of_a_massacre.htm
________________________________








All your links are from the point of view Israeli propaganda, BECAUSE no one
other than your Totally Unbiased government has investigated this until the
recent case against the blood sucker in Belgium,  if you are trying to make
a mass murderer who committed an ethnic cleansing holocaust look like an
angel then so be it, but the BBC documentaries says the opposite
"http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/panorama/latest.ram" and the courts
in Belgium have proceeded with the trial, and look up BBC's Response to
Israeli government on BBC.CO.uK, so I guess its all made up and Sharon or
your soldiers need not wash there hands from the blood of 3000 innocent
civilians, all there faults where that they where refugees of war, kicked
out of there land so you be happy,I am waiting to see what the courts have
to say, because its a disgrace for humanity......I rest my case.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/06/isr0622.htm

http://www.tzemach.org/fyi/docs/winston/jan24-01b.htm
http://www.netanyahu.org/conmytofsabs.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/panorama/newsid_14320
00/1432099.stm  from there "In fact Sharon was found innocent of the
massacre but the commission concluded that he should have foreseen the
possibility of its occurrence." But the Kahan Commission does make it clear
that Sharon had indirect responsibility for the massacre."

I started to gather linkes but realized it's a waste of time if you think
that ", he even met with the militia leaders "Elieee Hebieqaaa" before the
mass massacre and organized it all.." you're not aware of the way israelies
thinks.
It's a fact that NO israelie solders  were involved !. 
I might agree that he could have known it's possible to happen ,but there's
no way that he organized it. 
Waste of time to explain this thing to such hate motivated people like you.

And yeah you can find links which says otherwise . Thing is you should be
able to figure who is motivated by hate and who is trying to live.
Tiran.
Let's stop this waste of bandwidth . I don't have time to argue. As I
learned arguing usually ends in each side still believe in his "truth" and
more time and anger .

-----Original Message-----
From: LogicBaby [mailto:basharar@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 3:54 AM
To: logic ot yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [L-OT] ]Goodbye/SHARON

Sharon was Controlling Sabra And Shatilla refugee camps when the masucure
happened, just like Slevodan Miliosovitch was in control in Bosnia and
Serbia, He segued the camps with Israeli troops so NO ONE WILL get out of
them, Provided the lightings for the killers all night, Israeli Boldoozers
to berry the innocent victims like they are animals, Even your own
governments NON biased report admits to those facts, The massacre happened
for 2 days while the camps where surrounded, all poor and innocent people
mostly women and children Killed with guns and knifes over 3000 people
massacred, there is a copy of the BBC documentary for you to watch on the
net somewhere, I will find the link. Sharon was the military commander of
the area, he even met with the militia leaders "Elieee Hebieqaaa" before the
mass massacre and organized it all..
> 1. The people who murdered  those people in Lebanon were Lebanons,
motivated
> by inter-lebanon fights and hates.
Yeah, You would surround one side's refugee camp with troops, light up the
sky all night, provide bulldozers to bury the victims over there houses, and
you would make sure no one gets out, not even children so that they all get
killed and lay on the side of the streets while your bulldozers clean
up.......

> Let me ask you - If you were in a war and had the information that two
> groups ,which are your enemies might fight each other to death, would you
> care ? 
Who is lying now?!!! The Americans where outraged when the massacre
happened, and ordered Sharon to pull out of Beirut, not to mention Israeli
citizens with consciousness "left wingers mostly who demonstrated against
the blood sucker"...
> I think that this thing proves that a lie ,if said enough times ,can be
> mistaken to be truth. And that's the way it is.

This is the biggest lie of All, Sharon has convinced Israelis that
everything is under Arafats control, he controls the anger of the people,
the rage against settlers who steal there lands, the shootings, Do you think
that it will be peaceful if Arafat goes "Like Sharon dreams", you are waging
a war of extermination against a whole nation, the Palestinians need there
just rights, freedom and end of occupation of there lands, Arafat did not do
all this shameful injustice...... Its your occupying army and savage illegal
settlers and settlements, this is reality
> 2. You also ignore the fact that Arafat IS controlling the shooting and
> killing ,at least at the Macro level.- for example:
>
Have you asked yourself why are those kids very angry at you?? Why are the
Palestinians angry, I don\ufffdt think so, even though I know you know the truth
deep down. Again you go back to "Blame it all on Arafat" propaganda while
forgetting the source of the problem "OCCUPATION of others lands and filling
it with ILLEAGAL settlements"
> 3. As for the last "intifada" going on for the last year -
> So far there was a discussion going on whether Sharon's visit in Jerusalem
> was the ignition to the "intifada" or not.
> This discussion is over:
> one of arafat's man published a book , in arab language , which said that
> they organized for war long before this and they grab the opportunity to
> blame "Sharon" .
Yeah, ARAFAT is the source of your nightmares, you have done nothing towards
the poor Palestinians other than what I listed above, SHARON Preaches to his
people that there will be no more land compensations "OR RETURN Of what is
illegally STOLEN", The Palestinians should live under the settlements
forever and there is NO LAND for peace, its Security for peace, well there
will NEVER be Peace if you don\ufffdt give the Palestinians there rights under UN
resolutions and international laws, WITH or without Arafat, Sharon is only
going to get you more Un-security while he has NO political solution to your
problem, and is not ready to talk peace, he can blame it all on Arafat and
have people like yourself believe that lie.
> 4. Arafat is placing his people as victims , and provoke things that will
> cause lose of life.



Destroy YOU!!!! You have the second military power in the world, All
Palestinian towns are under siege, surrounded by your troops, NO cars, food
or medicine are allowed to pass, children, women and children are walking
mountains under your tank's guns, who is destroying who, AGAIN, there will
be no surrender as Sharon might like, IT is OCCUPATION, so you move out,
take the Russian and Ethiopian settlers off our lands, LIVE and LET Live,
before you go claiming to be the  innocent victims while you exercise
collective punishment on an entire nation, Peace is in your hands and you
know how to get it, END the occupation, take the settlers away....


> 5. And I truly believe the palestiniens deserve a country .problem is they
> have to realize they don't have to destroy us if they have.

ARE YOU not raciest or NOT "see your statement below", CNN is probably the
most biased towards Israel, if you think they are biased towards
Palestinians then you must be smoking Hash.... Murdock /Time Warner work for
Arafat.

> 6. CNN - How can you believe a network whose reporters are palestenians ?
> how can you believe a network who suppress news when the palestenians
don't
> approve them ?
You are talking about  Muhamed Al-Durrah, the kid that was gunned down by an
Israeli sniper from a military tower, the pictures where taken by a French
photographer called Charles Anderlin, I guess he made it all up to harm your
good reputation......


 there have been numerous examples how this network is biased
> . were you aware of the fact that the kid that was shut to death near his
> father was actually shut to death by the Palestinians ? well I've got a
job
> ,so I have to return working...

Its just that the current Israeli government is made up of Raciest right
wingers who really can express there emotions......you are always, always
the victims......

> 7. the israelies speakers sucks ( mostly because they think , mistakenly,
"
> we're right and that's why we don't have to explain or speak",and the
> palestenians are doing a great job. And it's shows.
> 
> Bye
> Tiran.



 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In logic-ot@y..., Tiran Edri <tiran@a...> wrote:
> http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/06/isr0622.htm
> 
> http://www.tzemach.org/fyi/docs/winston/jan24-01b.htm
> http://www.netanyahu.org/conmytofsabs.html
> 
> 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/panorama/newsid
_14320
> 00/1432099.stm  from there "In fact Sharon was found innocent of the
> massacre but the commission concluded that he should have foreseen 
the
> possibility of its occurrence." But the Kahan Commission does make 
it clear
> that Sharon had indirect responsibility for the massacre."

Other reports point out that we are talking about a person I would 
call an animal. Read this link: 
http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ign0

I'm getting very sick of people trying to defend a beast like Sharon. 
We are talking here about someone who has no conscience, kills women 
and children, rapes women. I would even call him the Israelean 
Goebbels. He's systematically raping a whole people. And what's more 
dangerous, he's been elected democratically and being backed up by the 
only superpower left in the world.

> I started to gather linkes but realized it's a waste of time if you 
think
> that ", he even met with the militia leaders "Elieee Hebieqaaa" 
before the
> mass massacre and organized it all.." you're not aware of the way 
israelies
> thinks.
> It's a fact that NO israelie solders  were involved !. 

This is exactly my point: Sharon orchestrates the whole of events. His 
strategy is to divide and conquer. It's very sick, it's even sicker 
than Nazi tactics.
Read http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/2001/010712_sharon_hamas.html and 
find out more.

> I might agree that he could have known it's possible to happen ,but 
there's
> no way that he organized it. 
> Waste of time to explain this thing to such hate motivated people 
like you.

You are wrong. Inform yourself correctly before you take over 
propagandist readings. Read 
http://electronicintifada.net/forreference/keyfigures/sharon.html.
Sharon was definitly aware of what he was doing.

> And yeah you can find links which says otherwise . Thing is you 
should be
> able to figure who is motivated by hate and who is trying to live.
> Tiran.

I'm not Palistinian, but can you imagine how you would feel after 
being terrorized systematically for over 30 years? In fact, if you 
support the Israelean goverment you are supporting these Nazi in 
power, you are the tyrant.

> Let's stop this waste of bandwidth . I don't have time to argue. As 
I
> learned arguing usually ends in each side still believe in his 
"truth" and
> more time and anger .

This is always the stance of people who want to hide something. Trying 
to make an open discussion go out like a flame. Come on, provide me 
with proof to the contrary. Of Sharon not being a terrorist.
If you don't want this on the list, mail me directly. Maybe by 
discussing it on the list other people also will learn who the real 
Sharon is. I do not claim that Arafat is a saint, but compared to 
Sharon, he is like a lamb compared to a wolf.
Yoonchi.

Tiran wrote 
>"In fact Sharon was found innocent of the
>massacre but the commission concluded that he should have foreseen the
>possibility of its occurrence." But the Kahan Commission does make it clear
>that Sharon had indirect responsibility for the massacre."

Was the Kahan Commission an Israeil Commission or an internation 
commission including neutral parties, Palestians, Arabs, and Israelis?

>I started to gather linkes but realized it's a waste of time if you think
>that ", he even met with the militia leaders "Elieee Hebieqaaa" before the
>mass massacre and organized it all.." you're not aware of the way israelies
>thinks.
>It's a fact that NO israelie solders  were involved !. 

Yeah, but you YOURSELF said that the two groups hated each other. If the 
American police put the Black Panthers (a militant group of black people) 
in charge of a KKK town (the KKK are a militant racist group of white 
people), is there any doubt that something terrible will occur? But can 
the police claim innoence because they didn't actually pull the trigger? 
Come on, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth with different 
stories.

(Actually the prison guards at one prison in Northern California were 
charged with something like this. One guy who was a trouble maker and 
kicked a female guard was put into a cell with a big black guy who was 
well known as a booty-bandit (a guy who anally rapes guys). The guards 
conveniently didn't hear the first guys pleas for help when he was being 
butt-fucked against his will.) The booty-bandit got some new Nike's out 
of the deal too - not to mention a tight piece of ass. The prison guards 
are being tried for this now.

Really quite a similar deal - except the Palestinians didn't kick a guard 
or do anything wrong other than flee their homes in the face of Jewish 
terror and try to eke out an existence in dusty diseased squalor, and 
they weren't simply fucked in the ass. Their throats were slit in a 
several day orgy of death.

Speaking of terrorism, evidently it was 'invented' by the Jews 2,000 
years ago as a weapon to fight the Romans. They would slit the throats of 
centurians and commit other attrocities, not unlike their more modern 
sons have treated the British soldiers in 1948 and Arab civilians.

>I might agree that he could have known it's possible to happen ,but there's
>no way that he organized it. 

Who was in command? Who had responsibility and who was in charge? Sharon, 
Sharon, and Sharon. 

This a lot like having Hitler in charge of "refugee camps" in Auchwitz, 
Treblina,  Buchenwald, and the Warsaw ghettos. I'm not sure very many 
German soldiers actually killed the Jews in the camps- since they had 
Jewish prisoner "trustees" to do the actual dirty work of turning on the 
poison gas, and piling the bodies into the crematoriums.

And I don't mean to make light of this in any way, but clearly there is a 
painful irony here. But how can a people who suffered so much 50 years 
ago, turn around and subject another people to same kind of ethnic hatred 
with so little sympathy? I think that is the great enigma of the modern 
Jews - who are normally a wonderfully liberal and compassionate people - 
in all cases except when it comes to Palestinians.

>Waste of time to explain this thing to such hate motivated people like you.

Why the name calling? The most hateful act of all is to kill 3,000 
innocent men, women, and children living as poor refugees. That hateful 
act was committed with the complicity of the Israeli army. Its pretty 
strange to call anyone who questions this "hateful".

If you don't like the past from 20 years ago, look at the modern day war 
crimes of Sharon. Just yesterday, some Palestinians killed a Jewish 
teenager and wounded others. They were shot dead by Israeli snipers. 
Thats fine. However, the Israeilis then killed INNOCENT Palestinians that 
had nothing to do with it. And this is a regular daily pattern.

Do you feel no shame? And the question is really - will you not admit to 
any wrong doing? Even the Germans feel shame over what their ancestors 
did to the Jews.