Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "linwoodsmith" <linwood@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 5:45 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200


> After reading up on quadtone inks, I decided to pick up a used 1200
> and start making B&W prints.  I am probably making a newbie mistake,
> but every print I've made so far in landscape mode is off center to
> the left by about one-half an inch, despite checking the "center
> image" box in photoshop.  I'm also noticing that the bottoms of my
> page numbers are being cut off in Word.  Did I miss a setting on the
> 1200?  What am I doing wrong??!!

linwoodsmith,

You need to set the Epson driver to centered. This is in probably in the
"Printable area" under the "Paper" tab.

Regarding the 1200, it is not the best choice. I suffered along with one for
quite awhile before I gave up on it. The older 1160 or the newer 1280 have
fewer problems.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Thank, Martin.  That fixed it nicely.  BTW, I originally sought an 
1160, but could not find one anywhere.  Do you know where I could 
pick one up?  There's nothing on Ebay right now, if you can believe 
it...



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "linwoodsmith" <linwood@e...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 5:45 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200
> 
> 
> > After reading up on quadtone inks, I decided to pick up a used 
1200
> > and start making B&W prints.  I am probably making a newbie 
mistake,
> > but every print I've made so far in landscape mode is off center 
to
> > the left by about one-half an inch, despite checking the "center
> > image" box in photoshop.  I'm also noticing that the bottoms of my
> > page numbers are being cut off in Word.  Did I miss a setting on 
the
> > 1200?  What am I doing wrong??!!
> 
> linwoodsmith,
> 
> You need to set the Epson driver to centered. This is in probably 
in the
> "Printable area" under the "Paper" tab.
> 
> Regarding the 1200, it is not the best choice. I suffered along 
with one for
> quite awhile before I gave up on it. The older 1160 or the newer 
1280 have
> fewer problems.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "linwoodsmith" <linwood@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200


> Thank, Martin.  That fixed it nicely.  BTW, I originally sought an
> 1160, but could not find one anywhere.  Do you know where I could
> pick one up?  There's nothing on Ebay right now, if you can believe
> it...
>
I would go for a 1280 rather than an 1160 myself. But if you really, really
want an 1160 you can probably order a new one from Europe or Australia. Such
as:

http://www.microwarehouse.co.uk/product.asp?sku=PR15611

They will be wired for a different voltage and you would need to buy the
proper voltage converter, but it could be done.

Martin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "linwoodsmith" <linwood@e...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 5:45 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200
> >
> >
> > > After reading up on quadtone inks, I decided to pick up a used
> 1200
> > > and start making B&W prints.  I am probably making a newbie
> mistake,
> > > but every print I've made so far in landscape mode is off center
> to
> > > the left by about one-half an inch, despite checking the "center
> > > image" box in photoshop.  I'm also noticing that the bottoms of my
> > > page numbers are being cut off in Word.  Did I miss a setting on
> the
> > > 1200?  What am I doing wrong??!!
> >
> > linwoodsmith,
> >
> > You need to set the Epson driver to centered. This is in probably
> in the
> > "Printable area" under the "Paper" tab.
> >
> > Regarding the 1200, it is not the best choice. I suffered along
> with one for
> > quite awhile before I gave up on it. The older 1160 or the newer
> 1280 have
> > fewer problems.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
> > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Martin,

Why do you prefer the 1280 to an 1160 printer?  I've been thinking about
hunting down another 1160 just to have a backup to mine, but would be
interested in hearing about any advantages to changing over to the 1280.
Thanks!

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200

I would go for a 1280 rather than an 1160 myself. But if you really, really
want an 1160 you can probably order a new one from Europe or Australia.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "BOB KRAMER" <bobkramer@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200


> Martin,
>
> Why do you prefer the 1280 to an 1160 printer?  I've been thinking about
> hunting down another 1160 just to have a backup to mine, but would be
> interested in hearing about any advantages to changing over to the 1280.
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
>
Bob,

It is simply the issue of availability. I don't see any quality differences
although in theory the extra nozzles should help. I went from a 1200 to a
1280 which was a big improvement due to all the clogging and banding
problems on the 1200.

At this point it just seems better to get a brand new 1280 rather than
hassle with a used 1160 or trying to importing one and doing the power
conversion.

Software is also something to consider. Some of the new programs may not
support the older printers.

Martin

Bob,

I agree with Martin.  The 1280 is a good choice.   I recently 
participated in a Technical Print Exchange.  Comparing the 1260 and 
1280, the prints were very similar in ramp smoothness and dottiness.  
Both printers were  A LOT less dotty than the newer 2200 printer 
using a number of different RIPs.  So, unless you find a good 1260, 
you can confidently go with the 1280.

Good luck and regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "BOB KRAMER" <bobkramer@c...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:37 AM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200
> 
> 
> > Martin,
> >
> > Why do you prefer the 1280 to an 1160 printer?  I've been 
thinking about
> > hunting down another 1160 just to have a backup to mine, but 
would be
> > interested in hearing about any advantages to changing over to 
the 1280.
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Bob
> >
> Bob,
> 
> It is simply the issue of availability. I don't see any quality 
differences
> although in theory the extra nozzles should help. I went from a 
1200 to a
> 1280 which was a big improvement due to all the clogging and banding
> problems on the 1200.
> 
> At this point it just seems better to get a brand new 1280 rather 
than
> hassle with a used 1160 or trying to importing one and doing the 
power
> conversion.
> 
> Software is also something to consider. Some of the new programs 
may not

> support the older printers.
> 
> Martin

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Shilesh Jani" <shilesh.jani@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200


> Bob,
>
> I agree with Martin.  The 1280 is a good choice.   I recently
> participated in a Technical Print Exchange.  Comparing the 1260 and
> 1280, the prints were very similar in ramp smoothness and dottiness.
> Both printers were  A LOT less dotty than the newer 2200 printer
> using a number of different RIPs.  So, unless you find a good 1260,
> you can confidently go with the 1280.
>

Shilesh,

Unfortunately, I wasn't a member of the technical exchange but I have
communicat3ed with Clayton and I gather he is writing up a summary plus some
additional info.

From the samples you have you feel the 1280 and 1160 out performed the 2200?
That's too bad. I was hoping that the 2200 would represent a step forward
but I guess the mechanics really are not changing and the factors that
govern "dottiness" and smooth tonality as simply staying constant.

Martin

(snip earlier)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin 
Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Shilesh Jani" <shilesh.jani@s...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> >
> > I agree with Martin.  The 1280 is a good choice.   I recently
> > participated in a Technical Print Exchange.  Comparing the 
1260 and
> > 1280, the prints were very similar in ramp smoothness and 
dottiness.
> > Both printers were  A LOT less dotty than the newer 2200 
printer
> > using a number of different RIPs.  So, unless you find a good 
1260,
> > you can confidently go with the 1280.
> >
> 
> Shilesh,
> 
> Unfortunately, I wasn't a member of the technical exchange but 
I have
> communicat3ed with Clayton and I gather he is writing up a 
summary plus some
> additional info.
> 
> From the samples you have you feel the 1280 and 1160 out 
performed the 2200?
> That's too bad. I was hoping that the 2200 would represent a 
step forward
> but I guess the mechanics really are not changing and the 
factors that
> govern "dottiness" and smooth tonality as simply staying 
constant.
> 
> Martin
> 

Hi Martin,

It's not so much the mechanics of the 2200, its what inks
are used.  Using standard Epson UC inks there are only
black and light-black used i.e. 2 inks.  Most people with 1160's
and 1280's are using 3 or 4 grays, and that is what makes
the difference.  I'm also going to be sending Clayton a print
from my 7500 (the only one in the exchange I think) that I
made with my QuadToneRIP and a custom created 5 grays
ink set.  It'll be interesting to see how a non-variable dotsize
printer stands up to all the others.

Roy

--- Martin Wesley <mwesley250@...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Shilesh Jani" <shilesh.jani@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson
> 1200
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> >
> > I agree with Martin.  The 1280 is a good choice.  
> I recently
> > participated in a Technical Print Exchange. 
> Comparing the 1260 and
> > 1280, the prints were very similar in ramp
> smoothness and dottiness.
> > Both printers were  A LOT less dotty than the
> newer 2200 printer
> > using a number of different RIPs.  So, unless you
> find a good 1260,
> > you can confidently go with the 1280.
> >
> 
> Shilesh,
> 
> Unfortunately, I wasn't a member of the technical
> exchange but I have
> communicat3ed with Clayton and I gather he is
> writing up a summary plus some
> additional info.
> 
> From the samples you have you feel the 1280 and 1160
> out performed the 2200?
> That's too bad. I was hoping that the 2200 would
> represent a step forward
> but I guess the mechanics really are not changing
> and the factors that
> govern "dottiness" and smooth tonality as simply
> staying constant.
> 
> Martin
> 
> (snip earlier)
> 
> 
> 
for what its worth
I don't get dots printing with OPM on my 2200, my
prints so far have been very smooth. Black only is
very dotty of course, but I don't print that way.
je


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Shilesh,
The conclusion you note regarding a 2200 vs 1160/1280 comparison puzzles me. When 
I've matched up prints from my 2200 vs my 1160, using the Epson driver on each, I've found 
the 2200 to be smoother and less dotty. If the Technical Print Exchange's comparison wasn't 
based on 2200 prints made with the Epson driver (you mention "a number of different RIPs" 
were used), then it's possible that that comparison underestimated the 2200's mechanical 
capabilities, since the RIPs introduce a set of "unnatural" characteristics for the 2200 to  
deal with. Could the fact that the 1160 and 1280 can use quad-black inksets  (vs. the 2200's 
being limited to date to non-quad inksets) have been the real source of the difference in print 
quality (as opposed to machinery shortcomings in the 2200)?
John     

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Shilesh Jani 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200


  Bob,

  I agree with Martin.  The 1280 is a good choice.   I recently 
  participated in a Technical Print Exchange.  Comparing the 1260 and 
  1280, the prints were very similar in ramp smoothness and dottiness.  
  Both printers were  A LOT less dotty than the newer 2200 printer 
  using a number of different RIPs.  So, unless you find a good 1260, 
  you can confidently go with the 1280.

  Good luck and regards.

  Shilesh

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
  <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: "BOB KRAMER" <bobkramer@c...>
  > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:37 AM
  > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200
  > 
  > 
  > > Martin,
  > >
  > > Why do you prefer the 1280 to an 1160 printer?  I've been 
  thinking about
  > > hunting down another 1160 just to have a backup to mine, but 
  would be
  > > interested in hearing about any advantages to changing over to 
  the 1280.
  > > Thanks!
  > >
  > > Bob
  > >
  > Bob,
  > 
  > It is simply the issue of availability. I don't see any quality 
  differences
  > although in theory the extra nozzles should help. I went from a 
  1200 to a
  > 1280 which was a big improvement due to all the clogging and banding
  > problems on the 1200.
  > 
  > At this point it just seems better to get a brand new 1280 rather 
  than
  > hassle with a used 1160 or trying to importing one and doing the 
  power
  > conversion.
  > 
  > Software is also something to consider. Some of the new programs 
  may not
  > support the older printers.
  > 
  > Martin


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 

             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm also going to be sending Clayton a print
> from my 7500 (the only one in the exchange I think) that I
> made with my QuadToneRIP and a custom created 5 grays
> ink set.  It'll be interesting to see how a non-variable
dotsize
> printer stands up to all the others.
>
> Roy

Roy,

As far as I know the 7500 (and 9000,9500,7000) should have two
droplet sizes at 720 dpi but one on the 1440 dpi setting.

Ernst

I entered a print in the technical exchange using iProof PowerRIP, which
I've since abandoned in favor of the Ultratones. The dot pattern from
PowerRIP is slightly more coarse than the regular Epson driver and that
could explain why someone might think this was the same as the regular
output from the 2100.

I've also found that with the 2100, epson driver and ultratones there is
no way to get the light black out of the highlights. For some reason
there always seems to be at least some light black in there no matter
which color I use for the highlights, causing a slightly more dotted
pattern than with a driver such as QuadToneRIP.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 

-----Original Message-----
From: John/Julie Gittins [mailto:jgittins2@...] 
Sent: 20. juni 2003 07:24
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200


Shilesh,
The conclusion you note regarding a 2200 vs 1160/1280 comparison puzzles
me. When 
I've matched up prints from my 2200 vs my 1160, using the Epson driver
on each, I've found 
the 2200 to be smoother and less dotty. If the Technical Print
Exchange's comparison wasn't 
based on 2200 prints made with the Epson driver (you mention "a number
of different RIPs" 
were used), then it's possible that that comparison underestimated the
2200's mechanical 
capabilities, since the RIPs introduce a set of "unnatural"
characteristics for the 2200 to  
deal with. Could the fact that the 1160 and 1280 can use quad-black
inksets  (vs. the 2200's 
being limited to date to non-quad inksets) have been the real source of
the difference in print 
quality (as opposed to machinery shortcomings in the 2200)?
John     
     
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Shilesh Jani 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200


  Bob,

  I agree with Martin.  The 1280 is a good choice.   I recently 
  participated in a Technical Print Exchange.  Comparing the 1260 and 
  1280, the prints were very similar in ramp smoothness and dottiness.  
  Both printers were  A LOT less dotty than the newer 2200 printer 
  using a number of different RIPs.  So, unless you find a good 1260, 
  you can confidently go with the 1280.

  Good luck and regards.

  Shilesh

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
  <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: "BOB KRAMER" <bobkramer@c...>
  > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:37 AM
  > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200
  > 
  > 
  > > Martin,
  > >
  > > Why do you prefer the 1280 to an 1160 printer?  I've been 
  thinking about
  > > hunting down another 1160 just to have a backup to mine, but 
  would be
  > > interested in hearing about any advantages to changing over to 
  the 1280.
  > > Thanks!
  > >
  > > Bob
  > >
  > Bob,
  > 
  > It is simply the issue of availability. I don't see any quality 
  differences
  > although in theory the extra nozzles should help. I went from a 
  1200 to a
  > 1280 which was a big improvement due to all the clogging and banding
  > problems on the 1200.
  > 
  > At this point it just seems better to get a brand new 1280 rather 
  than
  > hassle with a used 1160 or trying to importing one and doing the 
  power
  > conversion.
  > 
  > Software is also something to consider. Some of the new programs 
  may not
  > support the older printers.
  > 
  > Martin


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 

             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst 
Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
>   I'm also going to be sending Clayton a print
> > from my 7500 (the only one in the exchange I think) that I
> > made with my QuadToneRIP and a custom created 5 grays
> > ink set.  It'll be interesting to see how a non-variable
> dotsize
> > printer stands up to all the others.
> >
> > Roy
> 
> Roy,
> 
> As far as I know the 7500 (and 9000,9500,7000) should have 
two
> droplet sizes at 720 dpi but one on the 1440 dpi setting.
> 
> Ernst

Ernst,

I'm not completely sure but it seems to me that 1440x720
and 720x720 have the same single droplet size.
720x360 has a larger droplet size but you only get the
larger size while in that resolution.

So for any one print all the droplets are the same size.

I've deciphered this from looking at tables that control the
print driver.  So if you have any more definitive info I'd be
interested to know.  But it may be a moot point since I imagine
1440x740 is the most likely resolution for photos anyway.

Roy

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst
> Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> >
> >   I'm also going to be sending Clayton a print
> > > from my 7500 (the only one in the exchange I think) that I
> > > made with my QuadToneRIP and a custom created 5 grays
> > > ink set.  It'll be interesting to see how a non-variable
> > dotsize
> > > printer stands up to all the others.
> > >
> > > Roy
> >
> > Roy,
> >
> > As far as I know the 7500 (and 9000,9500,7000) should have
> two
> > droplet sizes at 720 dpi but one on the 1440 dpi setting.
> >
> > Ernst
>
> Ernst,
>
> I'm not completely sure but it seems to me that 1440x720
> and 720x720 have the same single droplet size.
> 720x360 has a larger droplet size but you only get the
> larger size while in that resolution.
>
> So for any one print all the droplets are the same size.
>
> I've deciphered this from looking at tables that control the
> print driver.  So if you have any more definitive info I'd be
> interested to know.  But it may be a moot point since I imagine
> 1440x740 is the most likely resolution for photos anyway.
>
> Roy

Roy,

It is an old tale meanwhile but it was raked up by John
Nollendorfs sometime ago when he wrote me that the 720x720 dpi
setting uses two droplet sizes in the Epson driver. I remember
that Jon Cone asked the early 9000 users on an informal 9000
mailing list (before the 9000/wide format list existed) what they
knew about variable droplet sizes possible for the 9000 models,
that was before Piezography became a name and an application.
Will ask John what it is precisely.

Ernst

On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 12:14 AM, Daniel Staver wrote:

> I've also found that with the 2100, epson driver and ultratones there 
> is
> no way to get the light black out of the highlights. For some reason
> there always seems to be at least some light black in there no matter
> which color I use for the highlights, causing a slightly more dotted
> pattern than with a driver such as QuadToneRIP.

To bet the best possible results with the 2100/2200 you will need to 
use either the QuadToneRIP or Ink Jet Control/Open Printmaker to drive 
the individual channels.  This will allow you to partition the hilights 
with only the light gray ink...and bring in the light black later...but 
you will need to use the 2.0 version of the QuadtoneRIP to do this.

I know this could easily be done with the 2200 and IJC/OPM, but I'm 
waiting for empty 2200 chips to do it.

Robert

On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 02:17 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> It is simply the issue of availability. I don't see any quality 
> differences
> although in theory the extra nozzles should help. I went from a 1200 
> to a
> 1280 which was a big improvement due to all the clogging and banding
> problems on the 1200.
>
> At this point it just seems better to get a brand new 1280 rather than
> hassle with a used 1160 or trying to importing one and doing the power
> conversion.
>
> Software is also something to consider. Some of the new programs may 
> not
> support the older printers.

Martin,

When you say that the performance is the same between the 1160 and the 
1280, are you using the piezo driver?  This could explain why you are 
not seeing the added benefit of the smaller droplet size of the 
1280...the piezo driver adds so much noise to the signal.  Running the 
inks with single channel control you can clearly see the difference.  
That said, if you are getting equivalent performance than the 1160 
would definitely be preferable do to its much greater speed.  In the 
end the 2200 will lay waste to both of them on quality and speed...we 
just need those empty carts.

Robert

> To bet the best possible results with the 2100/2200 you will need to 
> use either the QuadToneRIP or Ink Jet Control/Open Printmaker 
> to drive 
> the individual channels.  This will allow you to partition 
> the hilights 
> with only the light gray ink...and bring in the light black 
> later...but 
> you will need to use the 2.0 version of the QuadtoneRIP to do this.

Actually 1.1 works fine for this as well. I've had god results with that
version, the only problem is speed. I can make 20 prints with the Epson
driver in the time it takes QuadToneRIP to do one print. That's not
specifically a problem with QTR though, but Gimp-Print in general.

I'm very eager to try the 2.0 version, I just haven't had the time
yet...


--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 08:13 AM, Daniel Staver wrote:

> Actually 1.1 works fine for this as well. I've had god results with 
> that
> version, the only problem is speed. I can make 20 prints with the Epson
> driver in the time it takes QuadToneRIP to do one print. That's not
> specifically a problem with QTR though, but Gimp-Print in general.

 From what I understand from Roy, you need version 2 to get away from 
Epson's partitioning.

Also, not sure it is a gimp-print problem...because I think that's more 
or less what the OPM driver is based on...and the prints sail out of 
the 2200 with OPM.


Robert

> > Actually 1.1 works fine for this as well. I've had god results with
> > that
> > version, the only problem is speed. I can make 20 prints 
> with the Epson
> > driver in the time it takes QuadToneRIP to do one print. That's not
> > specifically a problem with QTR though, but Gimp-Print in general.
> 
>  From what I understand from Roy, you need version 2 to get away from 
> Epson's partitioning.

No, 1.1 also partitions the inks any way you want them, but two inks at
a time. That is, you have one curve for black+light black, another for
cyan + light cyan, a last one for magenta + light magenta (and also
yellow of course). Since gimp-print allows you to print with either 4, 6
or 7 inks with the 2100 you can effectively get rid of the additional
inks and reduce the printer to a 4 or 6 color printer. Sometimes that
makes the profiling easier.

> Also, not sure it is a gimp-print problem...because I think 
> that's more 
> or less what the OPM driver is based on...and the prints sail out of 
> the 2200 with OPM.

I'm running my printer from windows, shared over tcp/ip to a virtual
linux machine on the same windows computer, and then shared back again
to windows with adobe postscript - a fairly complicated setup. There
might be some significant implications for printing speed in that setup.
The advantage is that I can print directly from Photoshop in windows to
QTR and keep the printer connected to my windows machine for printing
with the Epson driver. If I connected the printer to linux VMware would
take over the USB port and I wouldn't be able to print with the Epson
driver anymore.


--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel 
Staver" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > > Actually 1.1 works fine for this as well. I've had god results 
with
> > > that
> > > version, the only problem is speed. I can make 20 prints 
> > with the Epson
> > > driver in the time it takes QuadToneRIP to do one print. 
That's not
> > > specifically a problem with QTR though, but Gimp-Print in 
general.
> > 
> >  From what I understand from Roy, you need version 2 to get 
away from 
> > Epson's partitioning.
> 
> No, 1.1 also partitions the inks any way you want them, but two 
inks at
> a time. That is, you have one curve for black+light black, 
another for
> cyan + light cyan, a last one for magenta + light magenta (and 
also
> yellow of course). Since gimp-print allows you to print with 
either 4, 6
> or 7 inks with the 2100 you can effectively get rid of the 
additional
> inks and reduce the printer to a 4 or 6 color printer. Sometimes 
that
> makes the profiling easier.

In a sense, you're both right.  With 1.1 black & light-black are
tied together -- and I think it does well in the transition from
a density point of view.  But the color change from light to
dark is somewhat abrupt.  This make the toning curve more
difficult to design but it should be possible.  With 2.0 you
can control the transition better and the toning curve is very
simple.

> 
> > Also, not sure it is a gimp-print problem...because I think 
> > that's more 
> > or less what the OPM driver is based on...and the prints sail 
out of 
> > the 2200 with OPM.

The speed issue is really surprising since they both use the
same underlying gimp-print code.  There are a lot of options
that can be selected so I suspect it's a matter of trying
different ones.   With my 7500 I get what seems to me to be
decent speed -- about 12 min for a full size 16x20.

> 
> I'm running my printer from windows, shared over tcp/ip to a 
virtual
> linux machine on the same windows computer, and then 
shared back again
> to windows with adobe postscript - a fairly complicated setup. 
There
> might be some significant implications for printing speed in 
that setup.
> The advantage is that I can print directly from Photoshop in 
windows to
> QTR and keep the printer connected to my windows machine 
for printing
> with the Epson driver. If I connected the printer to linux VMware 
would
> take over the USB port and I wouldn't be able to print with the 
Epson
> driver anymore.

This sounds pretty cool.  One of the reasons I took my
approach for QuadToneRIP is that using the standard
printer workflow opens up lots of never even thought about
possibilities. As some point maybe it'll be worth
documenting it for others.

Roy

> 
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst
> Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> >
> >   I'm also going to be sending Clayton a print
> > > from my 7500 (the only one in the exchange I think) that I
> > > made with my QuadToneRIP and a custom created 5 grays
> > > ink set.  It'll be interesting to see how a non-variable
> > dotsize
> > > printer stands up to all the others.
> > >
> > > Roy
> >
> > Roy,
> >
> > As far as I know the 7500 (and 9000,9500,7000) should have
> two
> > droplet sizes at 720 dpi but one on the 1440 dpi setting.
> >
> > Ernst
>
> Ernst,
>
> I'm not completely sure but it seems to me that 1440x720
> and 720x720 have the same single droplet size.
> 720x360 has a larger droplet size but you only get the
> larger size while in that resolution.
>
> So for any one print all the droplets are the same size.
>
> I've deciphered this from looking at tables that control the
> print driver.  So if you have any more definitive info I'd be
> interested to know.  But it may be a moot point since I imagine
> 1440x740 is the most likely resolution for photos anyway.
>
> Roy

John wrote the following:

>Ernst:
 From what I recall, there were at least two droplet sizes
available at
1440. I also remember that not all droplet sizes are available in
a
given line--that is you couldn't mix droplet sizes.

Regarding 720 vs 1440 modes, I'm not really sure. I have not
investigated personally.<

So similar to your remarks. Must have been my illusion there was
more
possible.

Ernst

Martin,

My apologies for not responsing sooner.  I had to go back and look at 
all of the 2200/2100 prints from the technical exchange and numerous 
prints submitted to the Tom O'Connell exchanges.

My assesment:  Yes, without exception, prints made with 2200/2100 
prints are more dotty in highlights than with 1280 printers.  It 
seems independent of workflow.  My sample contains IP5, Stylus RIP, 
Epson driver, IProof RIP,and OPM.

My guess is that the dots are caused by the relatively high density 
of the light black ink.  So, if it was replaced with a lighter 
density ink, say equivalent of yellow position Piezography, then a 
simple adjustment curve could be used to bring the repsonse back to 
linear.

Hope this helps.  Regards.

Shilesh

Still searching for hiher Dmax!!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Shilesh Jani" <shilesh.jani@s...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> >
> > I agree with Martin.  The 1280 is a good choice.   I recently
> > participated in a Technical Print Exchange.  Comparing the 1260 
and
> > 1280, the prints were very similar in ramp smoothness and 
dottiness.
> > Both printers were  A LOT less dotty than the newer 2200 printer
> > using a number of different RIPs.  So, unless you find a good 
1260,
> > you can confidently go with the 1280.
> >
> 
> Shilesh,
> 
> Unfortunately, I wasn't a member of the technical exchange but I 
have
> communicat3ed with Clayton and I gather he is writing up a summary 
plus some
> additional info.
> 
> From the samples you have you feel the 1280 and 1160 out performed 
the 2200?
> That's too bad. I was hoping that the 2200 would represent a step 
forward
> but I guess the mechanics really are not changing and the factors 
that

> govern "dottiness" and smooth tonality as simply staying constant.
> 
> Martin
> 
> (snip earlier)

I actually just tried what you're suggesting a few days ago. I loaded a
light black cart with yellow position ultratone ink and made a few test
prints. I could still see dots in the highlights, and I got some very
slight transition problems in the darker areas. The rest of the inks
were regular MIS Ultratones. I didn't bother to do extensive testing on
this, but I still have the cart here so if there's anything specific
you'd like me to try I could make some more tests and post scans of the
prints.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shilesh Jani [mailto:shilesh.jani@...] 
> Sent: 23. juni 2003 15:29
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Dots in 2200 Prints was Off-center 
> prints on Epson 1200
> 
> 
> Martin,
> 
> My apologies for not responsing sooner.  I had to go back and look at 
> all of the 2200/2100 prints from the technical exchange and numerous 
> prints submitted to the Tom O'Connell exchanges.
> 
> My assesment:  Yes, without exception, prints made with 2200/2100 
> prints are more dotty in highlights than with 1280 printers.  It 
> seems independent of workflow.  My sample contains IP5, Stylus RIP, 
> Epson driver, IProof RIP,and OPM.
> 
> My guess is that the dots are caused by the relatively high density 
> of the light black ink.  So, if it was replaced with a lighter 
> density ink, say equivalent of yellow position Piezography, then a 
> simple adjustment curve could be used to bring the repsonse back to 
> linear.
> 
> Hope this helps.  Regards.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> Still searching for hiher Dmax!!
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shilesh Jani" <shilesh.jani@s...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:01 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200
> > 
> > 
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > I agree with Martin.  The 1280 is a good choice.   I recently
> > > participated in a Technical Print Exchange.  Comparing the 1260
> and
> > > 1280, the prints were very similar in ramp smoothness and
> dottiness.
> > > Both printers were  A LOT less dotty than the newer 2200 printer 
> > > using a number of different RIPs.  So, unless you find a good
> 1260,
> > > you can confidently go with the 1280.
> > >
> > 
> > Shilesh,
> > 
> > Unfortunately, I wasn't a member of the technical exchange but I
> have
> > communicat3ed with Clayton and I gather he is writing up a summary
> plus some
> > additional info.
> > 
> > From the samples you have you feel the 1280 and 1160 out performed
> the 2200?
> > That's too bad. I was hoping that the 2200 would represent a step
> forward
> > but I guess the mechanics really are not changing and the factors
> that
> > govern "dottiness" and smooth tonality as simply staying constant.
> > 
> > Martin
> > 
> > (snip earlier)
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your 
> Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. 
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA> /ucIolB/TM
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------~->
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
> Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
> updated. The page is at:
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Exactly, with the Epson OEM UC inks...the hilights are being made with 
the equivalent of a medium and dark gray ink from the quads...there is 
no way you will get dot free hilights...doesn't matter what driver you 
use.  But you are right once we get the 2200 empties (end of summer I 
hear)...using a light gray will solve the problem.  As far as bronzing 
goes with the Ultrachromes, using the lighter gray ink (maybe the photo 
cyan channel gray from the ultrachromes) with the yellow channel gray 
from the Ultratones  with the Ultrachrome photo black might be the 
ideal solution, when you have single channel control and are not 
dependent on the Epson driver.

Robert

On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 06:29 AM, Shilesh Jani wrote:

> My guess is that the dots are caused by the relatively high density
> of the light black ink.  So, if it was replaced with a lighter
> density ink, say equivalent of yellow position Piezography, then a
> simple adjustment curve could be used to bring the repsonse back to
> linear.

On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 07:23 AM, Daniel Staver wrote:

> I actually just tried what you're suggesting a few days ago. I loaded a
> light black cart with yellow position ultratone ink and made a few test
> prints. I could still see dots in the highlights, and I got some very
> slight transition problems in the darker areas

What driver were you using?  The epson driver won't cut it.

Robert

I used the Epson driver. The point of changing the light black cart to a
lighter black would be to trick the driver into putting lighter dots in
the highlights. With another driver like QuadToneRIP 1.1 or 2.0 it's not
really neccessary in the first place, since it already separates the
inks nicely.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about the Ultratones here, not the OEM
Ultrachromes...

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...] 
> Sent: 23. juni 2003 17:14
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dots in 2200 Prints was Off-center 
> prints on Epson 1200
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 07:23 AM, Daniel Staver wrote:
> 
> > I actually just tried what you're suggesting a few days 
> ago. I loaded 
> > a light black cart with yellow position ultratone ink and 
> made a few 
> > test prints. I could still see dots in the highlights, and 
> I got some 
> > very slight transition problems in the darker areas
> 
> What driver were you using?  The epson driver won't cut it.
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your 
> Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. 
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA> /ucIolB/TM
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------~->
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
> Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
> updated. The page is at:
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Daniel,

Are you printing files in "grayscale" space or "RGB" space?  I am not 
sure, but this may make a difference.  Good luck.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> I actually just tried what you're suggesting a few days ago. I 
loaded a
> light black cart with yellow position ultratone ink and made a few 
test
> prints. I could still see dots in the highlights, and I got some 
very
> slight transition problems in the darker areas. The rest of the inks
> were regular MIS Ultratones. I didn't bother to do extensive 
testing on
> this, but I still have the cart here so if there's anything specific
> you'd like me to try I could make some more tests and post scans of 
the
> prints.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shilesh Jani [mailto:shilesh.jani@s...] 
> > Sent: 23. juni 2003 15:29
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Dots in 2200 Prints was Off-center 
> > prints on Epson 1200
> > 
> > 
> > Martin,
> > 
> > My apologies for not responsing sooner.  I had to go back and 
look at 
> > all of the 2200/2100 prints from the technical exchange and 
numerous 
> > prints submitted to the Tom O'Connell exchanges.
> > 
> > My assesment:  Yes, without exception, prints made with 2200/2100 
> > prints are more dotty in highlights than with 1280 printers.  It 
> > seems independent of workflow.  My sample contains IP5, Stylus 
RIP, 
> > Epson driver, IProof RIP,and OPM.
> > 
> > My guess is that the dots are caused by the relatively high 
density 
> > of the light black ink.  So, if it was replaced with a lighter 
> > density ink, say equivalent of yellow position Piezography, then 
a 
> > simple adjustment curve could be used to bring the repsonse back 
to 
> > linear.
> > 
> > Hope this helps.  Regards.
> > 
> > Shilesh
> > 
> > Still searching for hiher Dmax!!
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin 
Wesley" 
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Shilesh Jani" <shilesh.jani@s...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:01 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off-center prints on Epson 1200
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Bob,
> > > >
> > > > I agree with Martin.  The 1280 is a good choice.   I recently
> > > > participated in a Technical Print Exchange.  Comparing the 
1260
> > and
> > > > 1280, the prints were very similar in ramp smoothness and
> > dottiness.
> > > > Both printers were  A LOT less dotty than the newer 2200 
printer 
> > > > using a number of different RIPs.  So, unless you find a good
> > 1260,
> > > > you can confidently go with the 1280.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Shilesh,
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately, I wasn't a member of the technical exchange but I
> > have
> > > communicat3ed with Clayton and I gather he is writing up a 
summary
> > plus some
> > > additional info.
> > > 
> > > From the samples you have you feel the 1280 and 1160 out 
performed
> > the 2200?
> > > That's too bad. I was hoping that the 2200 would represent a 
step
> > forward
> > > but I guess the mechanics really are not changing and the 
factors
> > that
> > > govern "dottiness" and smooth tonality as simply staying 
constant.
> > > 
> > > Martin
> > > 
> > > (snip earlier)
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> > ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your 
> > Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. 
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA> /ucIolB/TM
> > 
> > 
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------~->
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
> > Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
> > updated. The page is at:
> > 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this
> same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various

> resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/