Digital BW, The Print

Michael,

Thank you.

His post caught me off guard also, which prompted my reply.

Honestly Tyler, you are one of those that I respect on this list and 
I didn't expect that from you. :-(

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<kravit@b...> wrote:
> 
> Terry,
> 
> Excellent post, you are right on target and I could not agree more. 
Actually I was quite surprised when I read Tyler's post.

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael J. Kravit, AIA
> Architect/Photographer
> www.kravit.net/photography
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Terry,

Excellent post, you are right on target and I could not agree more. Actually I was quite surprised when I read Tyler's post.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" <terryr1028@h...> 
wrote:
> Michael,
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> His post caught me off guard also, which prompted my reply.
> 
> Honestly Tyler, you are one of those that I respect on this list and 
> I didn't expect that from you. :-(
> 
> Terry

OK, now I'm really seriously confused. What's this all about?
Tyler

Terry, Michael K.? What was it about Tylers post that set you back? It seemed 
like  honest advice geared to the new user trying to make up his mind on 
which way to go.
I didn't see anything out of line from Tyler's post. I would say he has a 
correct bias towards Piezo inks and driver, because he knows how hard it is 
to match that quality, probably more than anyone. I can personally attest to 
the fact that I've wasted the savings on the price of ink(piezo vs, MIS) on 
Paper!  5 weeks of MIS inks with the 7000 = no savings and probably 200 hours 
of my time. Hey! but this was my choice, I like MIS inks, they are quite 
different from Piezo inks. I suspect most of the clogging problems come from 
Small variable dot printers such as the 1160, which probably has the most 
piezo users! What was touted as the best piezo printer by hundreds of posts 
may in fact be wrong, especially for long term piezo use.Remember when it was 
the 3000 taking all the heat? View the archives for a 10  to1 problem user 
report on the 1160.(ten times as many 1160's probably) Readers, remember! 
everything on these lists are opinions and this list reads sometimes like we 
are getting MIS inks shoved down our throats as the Miracle inks, the anti 
clog ink, the Vari tone ink, the $12.00 ink, The not brown ink, and on and 
on. There are problems with MIS inks, in my opinion! 
It might help to understand where Tyler is coming from, We both used MIS Inks 
in 1998! 3+ years ago, and we where both happy to jump ship when piezo came 
along, Thousands of dollars and hours spent fooling with these inks and 
trying to get a work flow down. The Work Flow? Tyler mastered it, Jon Cone is 
selling a variation of it with an all new driver!  He is just giving a 
warning to new users who think they can Jump on board Get MIS VM inks, load 
up Pauls curves and get printing cheap! Cheap and Digital printing are direct 
contradictions. Really, this list does read like a pro MIS list and a piezo 
bashing one. Mike! You spent quite some time with Paul getting down with the 
VM inks on your 7000. Even after getting it right on. it turns out its still 
too much trouble, and that you've gone back to piezo! Tyler was just trying 
to point out that after all the trouble the best your going to get is CLOSE 
to piezo! I'm good with MIS on my 7000 for now, but I really want to get  
into a simple grayscale 16bit piezo output, then everything else is the 
actual file. I won't have to make as many test prints or make an adjustment 
because I switched paper. New users? It all depends on how picky you are. See 
some prints somewhere.....
Between the piezo list and this one its the same 10=15 people over and over 
again. If you think the happy Piezo users are a minority, you gotta be nuts! 
I'am happy with both ink sets right now! 
Quadtone schizophrenic ;)
Steve M.

In a message dated 09/30/2001 7:27:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
terryr1028@... writes:
> Michael,
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> His post caught me off guard also, which prompted my reply.
> 
> Honestly Tyler, you are one of those that I respect on this list and 
> I didn't expect that from you. :-(
> 
> Terry
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

See Martins post that precedes this one. That is what surprised me, 
more the tone of it than anything else, you also go that way in your 
post as well. In other words, if we aren't professional photographers 
and haven't spent a million dollars and years of our time in our 
quest, then our tastes are insignificant and we wouldn't know quality 
when we saw it? Please remember, us "unprofessionals" are closer to 
the core audience that the professionals are trying to sell to. 

You say the MIS inks have problems, outside of the lack of curves at 
this point, what specifically do you see as a problem? Not trying to 
poke or anything, just curious.

Also curious as to why you went to the MIS VM if you were content 
with the Piezo.

Can't really disagree with your statements based upon your 
experiences, after all they are your experiences.

My feeling is that most Piezo users would be happy and in the 
majority IF they had inks that worked as advertised (as well as the 
toning options available with the MIS inks at the moment) and the 
Piezo driver were as forgiving as the Epson driver. Why else would 
they be seeking alternatives and posting complaints if they were 
content?

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> Terry, Michael K.? What was it about Tylers post that set you back? 
It seemed 
> like  honest advice geared to the new user trying to make up his 
mind on 
> which way to go.
> I didn't see anything out of line from Tyler's post. I would say he 
has a 
> correct bias towards Piezo inks and driver, because he knows how 
hard it is 
> to match that quality, probably more than anyone. I can personally 
attest to 
> the fact that I've wasted the savings on the price of ink(piezo vs, 
MIS) on 
> Paper!  5 weeks of MIS inks with the 7000 = no savings and probably 
200 hours 
> of my time. Hey! but this was my choice, I like MIS inks, they are 
quite 
> different from Piezo inks. I suspect most of the clogging problems 
come from 
> Small variable dot printers such as the 1160, which probably has 
the most 
> piezo users! What was touted as the best piezo printer by hundreds 
of posts 
> may in fact be wrong, especially for long term piezo use.Remember 
when it was 
> the 3000 taking all the heat? View the archives for a 10  to1 
problem user 
> report on the 1160.(ten times as many 1160's probably) Readers, 
remember! 
> everything on these lists are opinions and this list reads 
sometimes like we 
> are getting MIS inks shoved down our throats as the Miracle inks, 
the anti 
> clog ink, the Vari tone ink, the $12.00 ink, The not brown ink, and 
on and 
> on. There are problems with MIS inks, in my opinion! 
> It might help to understand where Tyler is coming from, We both 
used MIS Inks 
> in 1998! 3+ years ago, and we where both happy to jump ship when 
piezo came 
> along, Thousands of dollars and hours spent fooling with these inks 
and 
> trying to get a work flow down. The Work Flow? Tyler mastered it, 
Jon Cone is 
> selling a variation of it with an all new driver!  He is just 
giving a 
> warning to new users who think they can Jump on board Get MIS VM 
inks, load 
> up Pauls curves and get printing cheap! Cheap and Digital printing 
are direct 
> contradictions. Really, this list does read like a pro MIS list and 
a piezo 
> bashing one. Mike! You spent quite some time with Paul getting down 
with the 
> VM inks on your 7000. Even after getting it right on. it turns out 
its still 
> too much trouble, and that you've gone back to piezo! Tyler was 
just trying 
> to point out that after all the trouble the best your going to get 
is CLOSE 
> to piezo! I'm good with MIS on my 7000 for now, but I really want 
to get  
> into a simple grayscale 16bit piezo output, then everything else is 
the 
> actual file. I won't have to make as many test prints or make an 
adjustment 
> because I switched paper. New users? It all depends on how picky 
you are. See 
> some prints somewhere.....
> Between the piezo list and this one its the same 10=15 people over 
and over 
> again. If you think the happy Piezo users are a minority, you gotta 
be nuts! 
> I'am happy with both ink sets right now! 
> Quadtone schizophrenic ;)
> Steve M.
> 
> In a message dated 09/30/2001 7:27:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> terryr1028@h... writes:
> > Michael,
> > 
> > Thank you.
> > 
> > His post caught me off guard also, which prompted my reply.
> > 
> > Honestly Tyler, you are one of those that I respect on this list 
and 

> > I didn't expect that from you. :-(
> > 
> > Terry
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Terry, Its funny, the "tone" people get from messages! I know I had no 
intention implying unprofessionals had less taste or standards in quality.
I'am myself am not a professional Photographer! I do not earn my living from 
photography! I'am however fourtunate enough to have a large body of work
That has been selling very well for 3 years. I've sold almost 75k in prints 
those 3 years(spent it all) Its not the big leagues but an accomplishment 
thats a milestone in my life
after being a 30year photo enthusiast. One thing I've learned, is that 
professional photographers those that make a living from there work, are a 
step above the rest of us.
Because of Tyler I've gotten a glimpse of the life of a commercial 
photographer and the enormous overhead and obsticles they face. I have a new 
found respect for Pro's, and because of it I've raised the bar on my own work 
much higher. If your not a pro, hang around and see the work of as many of 
them as you can. Its real depressing sometimes, but inspiration is right 
around the corner.
I think I'am the only one using Standard MIS hextones on the 7000 I'am not 
using the VM inks. Not interested! I can vary my tone enough with just paper 
changes.
I got into this 7000 about 3 months before I was ready(fell into a good 
deal)I had every intention of buying piezo pro and probably still will! I Can 
afford it, my business hat said put a few hundred into MIS and see what you 
get before spending 3k on piezo pro!I I have 2 3000's to do my work while I 
FOOL with the 7000. 
Problems, well, there ink kind of mottles in the dark tones especiallly on 
Sumerset enhanced! I like this paper and I like warm! Warm sells!  It Mottled 
3 years ago and it still does
but not as bad. I'am using the FS black. Tyler has written curves for me and 
he can fix the mottle to as good as its gonna get.
The other thing that bothers me about this ink! I have several  3 year old 
MIS quadtone ink prints on a variety of papers! Some don't look so good, some 
look horrible.They where beutiful when first printed. This bothers me more 
than anything, Now I can only hope the coatings are better, I do think the 
inks are better now even though MIS says they have not changed them. The 
original quad set turned redddish Pink. And much more to choose from in the 
paper department. On summerset E I prefer a reddish brown vs, the Piezo 
golden brown. 
I'am trying MIS again to to see the tone with new papers! Its really making 
my life difficult going back and forth between two inksets, varible tone 
would drive me nuts and I would never get a complete body of workl done that 
had a consistant look to it.Vaible would be fun! but I don't thinkI could 
produce !
I'am putting 8 MIS prints in an exhibit comming up, along with some of my 
silver and 2 piezos. The Silver and the MIS prints were too much work :) I 
got a day job remember?
The MIS prints would have never made it to exhibit without Tylers curve work: 
) 
Keep in mind, the piezo list has its clogger posts and we have alot of curves 
need work posts here! 
I really hope there will be home light jet printers next year!
Steve M.

 



In a message dated 09/30/2001 10:12:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
terryr1028@... writes:


> Steve,
> 
> See Martins post that precedes this one. That is what surprised me, 
> more the tone of it than anything else, you also go that way in your 
> post as well. In other words, if we aren't professional photographers 
> and haven't spent a million dollars and years of our time in our 
> quest, then our tastes are insignificant and we wouldn't know quality 
> when we saw it? Please remember, us "unprofessionals" are closer to 
> the core audience that the professionals are trying to sell to. 
> 
> You say the MIS inks have problems, outside of the lack of curves at 
> this point, what specifically do you see as a problem? Not trying to 
> poke or anything, just curious.
> 
> Also curious as to why you went to the MIS VM if you were content 
> with the Piezo.
> 
> Can't really disagree with your statements based upon your 
> experiences, after all they are your experiences.
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> My feeling is that most Piezo users would be happy and in the
> majority IF they had inks that worked as advertised (as well as the
> toning options available with the MIS inks at the moment) and the
> Piezo driver were as forgiving as the Epson driver. Why else would
> they be seeking alternatives and posting complaints if they were
> content?
>
> Terry
 But Terry, the inks DO work as advertised in a good printer. I see far too
many people wasting money trying to make a duff printer work.
The warranty is great, the day after I complained about mine a guy came
around and gave me another one. I have two 1160s that work very well - one
didn't. My big moan with Cone is the price. I've not seen an FIS print, but
when I do, and if Ilike it I'll switch. But on cost grounds only. I've got a
set and a half of inks left - so I'll decide later! Also the Cone driver
isn't as forgiving for reasons we all know about, a different dither pattern
and upped res.
When this list first started there was some concern that it was an MIS
l;ist - it is starting to read like that to me.

Julian

Morning Nij,

I have used small gamut inks once. I got beautiful prints out of them,
but since you can't use Paul's curves or the Piezo driver, you will see
some dots in the light areas on an 1160 printer. I got beautiful tones
from them, but the metamerism was quite objectionable when I finally got
the exact cold (selenium) tone that I like so much. It was more than I
could put up with. 

Also the cartridges are terribly expensive, and the ink is not available
in bulk.

Jerry





Nij wrote:

> 
> :)
> 
> I appreciate your thoughts for not sharing...
> 
> So... just to open up that discussion... are there any Lyson Small Gamut
> users on this list? Experiences?
> 
> Nij
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TerryR [mailto:terryr1028@...]
> > Sent: 01 October 2001 04:30
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Getting started -- Cone or MIS? (LONG)
> >
> >
> > Nij,
> >
> > I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you! ;-)
> >
> > Just kidding, but in fairness to these companies that would not be a
> > good thing to do, since a few fare much better at adapting them for
> > use with the Epson printers, but that would cast doubt against their
> > products.
> >
> > Think of it as the rebranding that we hear so much about with paper,
> > except apply it to the ink.
> >
> > I test a lot of inks, usually on a beta basis. Some are as
> > advertised, and some will absolutely wipe out a printer while trying
> > to get them to work (anyone got a dead 1270 for sell cheap?). I also
> > get involved with some inks after they have been released as a
> > troubleshooter of sorts, but that is another story.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> > PS - Yes Lyson inks are available in the states.
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Thanks Jerry!

That is basically what I've heard from a very small number of users :) I
know the guys at the key distributor (????) Marrutt over here do a grand job
of selling the stuff - heard several comments about the quality of the
prints in their office - but presumably people are not allowed to take them
off the wall and look at them in the daylight! In fact, I think JM Humbert,
whom I met in Paris a few weeks back, had some Lyson - nice prints (shiny /
glossy!!) - but not much shadow detail either... compared to same file with
Piezo.

I was hoping we'd find some users who rant and rave about the good sides of
the product! And, users of other inks too!

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> Sent: 01 October 2001 16:30
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Getting started -- Cone or MIS? (LONG)
>
>
> Morning Nij,
>
> I have used small gamut inks once. I got beautiful prints out of them,
> but since you can't use Paul's curves or the Piezo driver, you will see
> some dots in the light areas on an 1160 printer. I got beautiful tones
> from them, but the metamerism was quite objectionable when I finally got
> the exact cold (selenium) tone that I like so much. It was more than I
> could put up with.
>
> Also the cartridges are terribly expensive, and the ink is not available
> in bulk.
>
> Jerry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" <terryr1028@h...>
wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> See Martins post that precedes this one. That is what surprised me, 
> more the tone of it than anything else, you also go that way in
your 
> post as well. In other words, if we aren't professional
photographers 
> and haven't spent a million dollars and years of our time in our 
> quest, then our tastes are insignificant and we wouldn't know
quality 
> when we saw it?

Good lord man! What on earth are you talking about? Read the words, I
make no tones.
Tyler

Nij,

I have been trying to get someone using Lyson to post their 
impressons but no luck so far. The ink poll does show one user so 
maybe they will chip in here.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Thanks Jerry!
> 
> That is basically what I've heard from a very small number of 
users :) I
> know the guys at the key distributor (????) Marrutt over here do a 
grand job
> of selling the stuff - heard several comments about the quality of 
the
> prints in their office - but presumably people are not allowed to 
take them
> off the wall and look at them in the daylight! In fact, I think JM 
Humbert,
> whom I met in Paris a few weeks back, had some Lyson - nice prints 
(shiny /
> glossy!!) - but not much shadow detail either... compared to same 
file with
> Piezo.
> 
> I was hoping we'd find some users who rant and rave about the good 
sides of
> the product! And, users of other inks too!
> 
> Nij
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@r...]
> > Sent: 01 October 2001 16:30
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Getting started -- Cone or MIS? 
(LONG)
> >
> >
> > Morning Nij,
> >
> > I have used small gamut inks once. I got beautiful prints out of 
them,
> > but since you can't use Paul's curves or the Piezo driver, you 
will see
> > some dots in the light areas on an 1160 printer. I got beautiful 
tones
> > from them, but the metamerism was quite objectionable when I 
finally got
> > the exact cold (selenium) tone that I like so much. It was more 
than I
> > could put up with.
> >
> > Also the cartridges are terribly expensive, and the ink is not 
available

> > in bulk.
> >
> > Jerry

Steve M.,

I'm surprised you are getting mottle on Somerset Enhanced. I've gone
through about a hundred sheets and have never seen mottle in the blacks.
 Not with MIS or Piezo inks. I don't think the blacks are very deep on
that paper, otherwise I would love it.

Since getting a printer profile and monitor spyder from CD Tobie, I can
now print beautiful prints with any tone I want on the MIS COLOR
Archival inkset. 

Before the profile, there's just no way that would have happened. It's
really easy in the color balance adjustment curve to tweak the tone to
the exact shade of cool/warm that you want. And the MIS Color inkset has
held up as good as any inkset I've yet tried in my south window, so it
does seem reasonable the the colors will hold up reasonably well with
the black and white prints from that set. 

Jerry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:

> I can
> now print beautiful prints with any tone I want on the MIS 
COLOR
> Archival inkset. 
.....

>And the MIS Color inkset has
> held up as good as any inkset I've yet tried in my south window, 
so it
> does seem reasonable the the colors will hold up reasonably 
well with
> the black and white prints from that set. 
> 
> Jerry


Jerry, I´m loosing track.
Are you saying that you print with color inks??
Didn´t you praise MIS Variable Mix for weeks ??
What did I miss??
Bernd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> Terry, Its funny, the "tone" people get from messages! I know I had 
no 
> intention implying unprofessionals had less taste or standards in 
quality.
> I'am myself am not a professional Photographer! I do not earn my 
living from 
> photography! I'am however fourtunate enough to have a large body of 
work
> That has been selling very well for 3 years. I've sold almost 75k 
in prints 
> those 3 years(spent it all) Its not the big leagues but an 
accomplishment 
> thats a milestone in my life
> after being a 30year photo enthusiast.

Steve,

I am glad to hear you have done so well with your work. You are doing 
some really wonderful images. That amount of sales may not be a 
living wage but it's a real good start. If you didn't have any 
expenses you would be up to the poverty level. ;-)

> One thing I've learned, is that 
> professional photographers those that make a living from there 
work, are a 
> step above the rest of us.

Ouch! Can't go there with you. I have seen way too much poor 
photography turned out by pros and way too much brilliant work done 
by non-professionals and lots of mediocre non-professional work and 
stunning professional work to make me believe there is any strong 
relationship between image quality and professional status.

> Because of Tyler I've gotten a glimpse of the life of a commercial 
> photographer and the enormous overhead and obsticles they face. I 
have a new 
> found respect for Pro's, and because of it I've raised the bar on 
my own work 
> much higher. If your not a pro, hang around and see the work of as 
many of 
> them as you can. Its real depressing sometimes, but inspiration is 
right 
> around the corner.

I think you have had the fortune to connect with some really great 
photographers who just so happen to be professionals. I salute all 
the pros out there. It is not an easy path to take. You not only have 
to know your art and craft you have to be good at marketing and 
business as well. No small feat.

> I think I'am the only one using Standard MIS hextones on the 7000 
I'am not 
> using the VM inks. Not interested! I can vary my tone enough with 
just paper 
> changes.

I went with the VM but I really only want one ink tone. Something 
closer to neutral than the FS. I want my work to have a consistent 
look. Making cold, cool, warm, prints all at the same time definitely 
isn't my goal. Just wanted the ability to get that exact print tone. 
The VM has gotten me pretty close. 

> I got into this 7000 about 3 months before I was ready(fell into a 
good 
> deal)I had every intention of buying piezo pro and probably still 
will! I Can 
> afford it, my business hat said put a few hundred into MIS and see 
what you 
> get before spending 3k on piezo pro!I I have 2 3000's to do my work 
while I 
> FOOL with the 7000. 
> Problems, well, there ink kind of mottles in the dark tones 
especiallly on 
> Sumerset enhanced! I like this paper and I like warm! Warm sells!  
It Mottled 
> 3 years ago and it still does
> but not as bad. I'am using the FS black. Tyler has written curves 
for me and 
> he can fix the mottle to as good as its gonna get.
> The other thing that bothers me about this ink! I have several  3 
year old 
> MIS quadtone ink prints on a variety of papers! Some don't look so 
good, some 
> look horrible.They where beutiful when first printed. This bothers 
me more 
> than anything, Now I can only hope the coatings are better, I do 
think the 
> inks are better now even though MIS says they have not changed 
them. The 
> original quad set turned redddish Pink. And much more to choose 
from in the 
> paper department. On summerset E I prefer a reddish brown vs, the 
Piezo 
> golden brown. 
> I'am trying MIS again to to see the tone with new papers! Its 
really making 
> my life difficult going back and forth between two inksets, varible 
tone 
> would drive me nuts and I would never get a complete body of workl 
done that 
> had a consistant look to it.Vaible would be fun! but I don't thinkI 
could 
> produce !

Switching back and forth must be a pain. I think you get an intuitive 
feel for a particular set of materials after you work with them a 
while.

> I'am putting 8 MIS prints in an exhibit comming up, along with some 
of my 
> silver and 2 piezos. The Silver and the MIS prints were too much 
work :) I 
> got a day job remember?

You aren't still sleeping at night are you? ;-) With all the work 
behind you, how do you feel about the final results comparing the MIS 
prints to the Piezo prints?

> The MIS prints would have never made it to exhibit without Tylers 
curve work: 
> )

You are very lucky in your friends.
 
> Keep in mind, the piezo list has its clogger posts and we have alot 
of curves 
> need work posts here! 

YEP! Plus there may be problems with the MIS sets that haven't had 
time to come to light yet.

> I really hope there will be home light jet printers next year!

I hope you're right. I know you did a lot of your work by having 
negatives made with an LVT. Are you still using that workflow for 
your silver prints?

Martin 


(snip)

TO:  The DigitalBW Forum

Sorry to prolong this ridiculous thread...but I just " had to" respond to the writer that used my name so freely. Now....

TO: Terry 

I have been away from the internet for a few days and when I return to read over 100+ emails (gotta drop one of these lists!) I was surprised to see my name three times in one posting...twice by you.  

What gives?  Weird!   

"Am you paying attention Steadman?"      I say:  Where the heck does that come from??

Yes, I pay attention to these forums.  I just wish I had a hogwash filter on my email software!

Overall, I must say I was perplexed at this series of postings.   I read them all (mostly to see if my name was mentioned again....grin....it wasn't....big grin).  

In short, in my honest opinion, I think Tyler and Steve win the argument.  Big time.  

Terry, your postings lacked "balance" and seemed to argue from very weak positions.  Very weak claims too.  Misleading even.  

And...I will not go further in this thread as it is really a big waste of time....and emotions it seems.   

Why don't you add something interesting to the forum...such as positive impressions of a product or workflow?  I will show you how....here is an example (as seen in a separate thread on the topic): 

Steadman:  I really like the PiezoBW software and inks. (PERIOD)   That is because they are very user friendly and easy to use.  They also produce prints that look outstanding on cheap printers!   They have enabled me to produce the highest quality prints without stepping into a wet darkroom or paying a pro lab or....without waiting days or weeks for prints.  I highly recommend the system to those that want to get started in digital BW printing and expect high quality prints with minimum hassle.   

That's it from me...clean nozzles to all!

Steadman



  (SNIP)

  Didn't this user also have the 7000 for only a few weeks? Also, does 
  the Piezo 7000 use dithering? The desktop versions don't (there 
  Steadman, that is one of the clues you were looking for), 

  (SNIP) 

  Are you paying attention Steadman? :-)


  Terry




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Terry,

I just thought a few of Tyler's statements were a bit subjective, that's all. No ill intent, no bashing, no issues other than that.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> One thing I've learned, is that 
> > professional photographers those that make a living from there 
> work, are a 
> > step above the rest of us.

>In a message dated 10/01/2001 5:05:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mwesley250@... writes:
>>>>Ouch! Can't go there with you. I have seen way too much poor 
>photography turned out by pros and way too much brilliant work done 
>by non-professionals and lots of mediocre non-professional work and 
>stunning professional work to make me believe there is any strong 
>relationship between image quality and professional status.

Ok I guess I'am referring to Commercial Photographers! Ad shooters, products, 
catolouges, the perfect stuff! With the perfect studio lighting!
The ones I see and know doing this type of work are very picky, and the ones 
that cause the rest of us to raise the bar on quality.
I don't mean the Gal at Penneys doing portraits, although she may be very 
good, this is not the kind of pro I have in my mind.
Those that do different shoots every day, under difficult conditions, and 
deliver day in day out and make a living as
 well as pay there enormous studio lease payments. I agree "pro" is  
Subjective statement.
snip>> 
> 
>  With all the work 
> >behind you, how do you feel about the final results comparing the MIS 
> >prints to the Piezo prints?



>  Generally I'am pleased with the MIS inks on the 7000, (non VM HEXTONES)The 
> one thing I really dont like is the tone of the prints in daylight! They 
> are kind 
of greenish!(subjective) The exact opposite of Piezo, but they are darn right 
gorgeous in tungsten lighting. Piezo has 
a slight advantage of being  non green in both lighting conditions. This 
could be the attraction of the Varible ink sets. 
The exhibit I'am hanging the MIS prints in is not a huge commercial exhibit 
so I'am talking the opportunity to show ink.
They will either steal the show or embarress me, There are two other xray 
silver printers in this one.  but I just about always take more risk than the 
normal guy would.
The MIS epson 7000 combo delivers more contrast, the piezo 3000 I use prints 
darker. Right now I'am enjoying the slight pop in contrast which is good for 
my work,
But my new stuff(camera based polaroids)(and old stuff 6x7 landscapes)will 
probably be more suited towards piezo. I don't have any issues with the piezo 
tone so eventually I'll be using Piezo pro
as I think it will better handle a large variety of work, Everything from 
high contrast to long toned platinum looks.
Risk is fun! 
Steve M.


> 
> 
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> 
> 

(snip)
> 
> Ok I guess I'am referring to Commercial Photographers! Ad shooters, 
products, 
> catolouges, the perfect stuff! With the perfect studio lighting!
> The ones I see and know doing this type of work are very picky, and 
the ones 
> that cause the rest of us to raise the bar on quality.
> I don't mean the Gal at Penneys doing portraits, although she may 
be very 
> good, this is not the kind of pro I have in my mind.
> Those that do different shoots every day, under difficult 
conditions, and 
> deliver day in day out and make a living as
>  well as pay there enormous studio lease payments. I agree "pro" 
is  
> Subjective statement.

Steve,

I think that commercial photographers have done some of the very best 
art photography while doing commercial assignments. My mother was a 
great commercial artist and fine arts painter. I really hate it when 
people dismiss commercial work because it was made for money. This 
used to be the attitude in fine art galleries and museums. (I hope 
that has changed.)

I just look at each work or body of work on its own merits. If the 
photograph moves me or touches me then for me it is a good work of 
art and I respect the photographer. I think it is a very personal 
reaction and that I want to resist the idea of prejudgment of the 
quality based upon the source. Even if someone well known that I 
really admire handed me a print and asked me what I thought, I would 
like to think that I would react to the image on its own strengths 
and weaknesses separately from who made it.

.> snip>> 
> > 
> >  With all the work 
> > >behind you, how do you feel about the final results comparing 
the MIS 
> > >prints to the Piezo prints?
> 
> 
> 
> >  Generally I'am pleased with the MIS inks on the 7000, (non VM 
HEXTONES)The 
> > one thing I really dont like is the tone of the prints in 
daylight! They 
> > are kind 
> of greenish!(subjective) The exact opposite of Piezo, but they are 
darn right 
> gorgeous in tungsten lighting. Piezo has 
> a slight advantage of being  non green in both lighting conditions. 
This 
> could be the attraction of the Varible ink sets.

I see the same metamerism with the MIS VM. Thanks for the data point 
on the MIS Original. I thought the blue-green cast in sunlight with 
the VM might be due to the toner ink. Looks really great under my 
tungsten and halogen floods. The opposite metamerism of Piezo for me. 
I love Piezo in daylight. The effect varies with paper, like Piezo, 
and with the ink tone curve you choose. Checking Bernd's MIS FS 
prints, they seem to have less metamerism than MIS VM or Piezo but in 
the same direction as Piezo. Perception of these metamerisms seem to 
really vary from person to person so I can only speak for my set of 
eyeballs and note that they are often very, very slight.
 
> The exhibit I'am hanging the MIS prints in is not a huge commercial 
exhibit 
> so I'am talking the opportunity to show ink.
> They will either steal the show or embarress me, There are two 
other xray 
> silver printers in this one.  but I just about always take more 
risk than the 
> normal guy would.

I salute you for taking inkjet to the masses and trust that the 
quality of your prints and the strength of your images will prevail. 
I can't really imagine any of your stuff being an embarrassment!

> The MIS epson 7000 combo delivers more contrast, the piezo 3000 I 
use prints 
> darker. 

I think Tyler mentioned that nothing lays down ink for a good Dmax 
like the 3000. 

Right now I'am enjoying the slight pop in contrast which is good for 
> my work,
> But my new stuff(camera based polaroids)(and old stuff 6x7 
landscapes)will 
> probably be more suited towards piezo. I don't have any issues with 
the piezo 
> tone so eventually I'll be using Piezo pro
> as I think it will better handle a large variety of work, 
Everything from 
> high contrast to long toned platinum looks.
> Risk is fun! 
> Steve M.

Good luck and let us know how show goes.

Martin