Digital BW, The Print

My sources had recently told me that Bowhaus has AT LEAST temporarily 
shelved active development of a Windoze version of IJC/OPM. (reportedly 
at least UNTIL they recoup some of the $ they have invested in initial 
product development - whatever that means). [I've been too busy with 
movie and election work to post about this until now.]

With only an OS9 version AFAIK currently available.. one must wonder 
aloud what the decision-makers at Bowhaus are thinking...  Given both 
the numbers of Classic Mac OS users migrating to OS X and  the VASTLY 
larger installed base of WinTel boxes (an order of magnitude) it gives 
one immediate pause to hear this info (confirmed by several industry 
sources)...

At least QTR comes in a Linux flavor as well (making an effective 
near-term OS X port more likely).

In both cases though (QTR and IJC/OPM) I hate to tell the software 
vendors/developers this, but I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that they will 
have any product backing

Looks like for pre 2200 EPSON desktop printers on WinTel boxes, it's 
"curves" for the foreseeable future if you intend to use varied inks and 
papers (i.e. not be tied by the RIP to specific inksets)..

Can you say "missed market opportunity?"

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

I have to note that the "vendor" for QTR is Roy
Harrington and he gives it away for free. Also IJC/OPM
is close to a system 10 release from what I hear. And
hey curves still work, I have been getting stellar
results with Paul Roark's curves with UT inks and
Photo Rag on my old 1200.
Right On
John E. 

--- "Editor P.O.V. Image Service"
<editor@...> wrote:
> My sources had recently told me that Bowhaus has AT
> LEAST temporarily 
> shelved active development of a Windoze version of
> IJC/OPM. (reportedly 
> at least UNTIL they recoup some of the $ they have
> invested in initial 
> product development - whatever that means). [I've
> been too busy with 
> movie and election work to post about this until
> now.]
> 
> With only an OS9 version AFAIK currently available..
> one must wonder 
> aloud what the decision-makers at Bowhaus are
> thinking...  Given both 
> the numbers of Classic Mac OS users migrating to OS
> X and  the VASTLY 
> larger installed base of WinTel boxes (an order of
> magnitude) it gives 
> one immediate pause to hear this info (confirmed by
> several industry 
> sources)...
> 
> At least QTR comes in a Linux flavor as well (making
> an effective 
> near-term OS X port more likely).
> 
> In both cases though (QTR and IJC/OPM) I hate to
> tell the software 
> vendors/developers this, but I find it EXTREMELY
> unlikely that they will 
> have any product backing
> 
> Looks like for pre 2200 EPSON desktop printers on
> WinTel boxes, it's 
> "curves" for the foreseeable future if you intend to
> use varied inks and 
> papers (i.e. not be tied by the RIP to specific
> inksets)..
> 
> Can you say "missed market opportunity?"
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
> 
> "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's
> largest EPSON printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets
> and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
>  
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to
> bang the rocks together 
> guys"
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Quite the diatribe - 

Just for the record, QTR works very well with OS X, in fact was written
specifically for OS X and moreover is a simple installation and work
flow. Printing from Wintel does require a Linux set up but that is not
particularly difficult either and produces quality results. Considering
that QTR is free for the asking and the author and users are generous
with help, neither QTR nor the author deserve your comments.

I would suggest that you owe Roy Harrington an apology.

On Sat, 2003-11-15 at 15:32, Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote: 
> My sources had recently told me that Bowhaus has AT LEAST temporarily 
> shelved active development of a Windoze version of IJC/OPM.
> (reportedly 
> at least UNTIL they recoup some of the $ they have invested in initial
> product development - whatever that means). [I've been too busy with 
> movie and election work to post about this until now.]
> 
> With only an OS9 version AFAIK currently available.. one must wonder 
> aloud what the decision-makers at Bowhaus are thinking...  Given both 
> the numbers of Classic Mac OS users migrating to OS X and  the VASTLY 
> larger installed base of WinTel boxes (an order of magnitude) it gives
> one immediate pause to hear this info (confirmed by several industry 
> sources)...
> 
> At least QTR comes in a Linux flavor as well (making an effective 
> near-term OS X port more likely).
> 
> In both cases though (QTR and IJC/OPM) I hate to tell the software 
> vendors/developers this, but I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that they
> will 
> have any product backing
> 
> Looks like for pre 2200 EPSON desktop printers on WinTel boxes, it's 
> "curves" for the foreseeable future if you intend to use varied inks
> and 
> papers (i.e. not be tied by the RIP to specific inksets)..
> 
> Can you say "missed market opportunity?"
> 
> 
> Keith Krebs
> 
> "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON
> printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
> 
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks
> together 
> guys"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:

>In both cases though (QTR and IJC/OPM) I hate to tell the software 
>vendors/developers this, but I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that they will 
>have any product backing
>  
>

oops.... that should have read "direct inkset product backing."

Sorry...

As for QTR being free,  I salute the creators of the software for doing 
so and I in No-Way denigrate the model they have chosen (I've been a 
HUGE proponent of the open-source model for a LONG time)...  All I'm 
saying is that when all the software developers ignore a significantly 
larger  installed OS base, they are missing a Golden opportunity. 

Additionally, as regards OPM/IJC, to say they had a Windows version 
"coming shortly" and to then halt development of that product  is  IMHO  
considerably short-sighted.

The first vendor who offers a product that works like IJC/OPM or QTR on 
the WinTel platform will have a huge advantage over their rivals...  
That equals $$..

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

One other thought...

Stopping development of a product that you've already announced as 
"coming shortly," at the very least,  isn't likely to engender a fount 
of good-will from potential end-users or previously supportive inkset 
suppliers/manufacturers.

In the inkjet area ask Jon Cone about that.. or MicroSoft in the larger 
market..  Seems like some need to learn the obvious software biz lessons 
over and over again..


Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/

"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
guys"

Roger Sopher wrote:

>Quite the diatribe - 
>  
>
Nope.. It's fact.  Too bad if it's uncomfortable for the vendor or some 
of the end-user supporters of the products.

>Just for the record, QTR works very well with OS X, in fact was written
>specifically for OS X and moreover is a simple installation and work
>flow. Printing from Wintel does require a Linux set up but that is not
>particularly difficult either and produces quality results. 
>
And you expect inkset vendor/manufacturers to support/recommend the 
products based upon that option..? You must be kidding Roy..  Speak to 
the inkset vendor/manufacturer decision-makers yourself and you'll hear 
exactly what I'm repeating here..

The Linux on a WinTel network is a nice option.. Unfortunately, it 
relegates the products to a niche market within a niche market.. Those 
willing to go that route as a subset of those pursuing quality B&W 
output from Inkjets..

Additionally, AFAIK, setting up the box on a Linux printer host/server 
means you lose the Windoze EPSON printer driver functionality 
entirely... (Which may be an issue for some potential end-users)

>Considering
>that QTR is free for the asking and the author and users are generous
>with help, neither QTR nor the author deserve your comments.
>  
>
Roger.. Feel free to read my  original post SLOWLY.  The vast majority 
of the negative commentary is directed at Bowhaus..  Roy never promised 
a WinTel version.. In fact, part of my point was that AT LEAST QTR has 
what IJC/OPM only promises (a working OS X) version. [Admittedly, I was 
mistaken in saying that it WILL likely have a sooner OS X port.. it has 
one already)


>I would suggest that you owe Roy Harrington an apology.
>  
>
Since I, in no way attacked Roy or QTR, I have not intention of offering 
such an apology....



 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Roger Sopher wrote:

>Quite the diatribe - 
>
>  
>
Roger, you've never been a fan of  my critiques or criticisms... Let's 
just say that IMHO you have  been more willing than many to generally 
uncritically accept and promote whatever the vendors/manufacturers 
choose to turn out...

But leaving that aside...

I think you need to head back to the Dictionary... from Webster's:

\Di"a*tribe\ (?; 277), n. [L. diatriba a learned discussion, Gr. ?, 
prop., a wearing away of time, fr. ? to rub away, spend time; dia` 
through + ? to rub: cf. L. terere, F. trite: cf. F. diatribe.] A 
prolonged or exhaustive discussion; especially, an acrimonious or 
invective harangue; a strain of abusive or railing language; a philippic.

The post was:

1)   In no sense an exhaustive discussion.
2)   Did not harangue nor attack.
3)   Contained no abusive language.
4)   Did not insult the subjects.

It simply reported on the current state of the product offerings and 
questioned their choice to ignore WinTel support..  As far as QTR, Roy 
has NO responsibility to offer, nor has he promised a Wintel version - 
his product is free and does what it says. 

On the other hand, Bowhaus DID promise a product which appears not to be 
forthcoming anytime soon.  Anytime a software developer does the latter 
(announcing forthcoming support and then shelving it)  criticism is not 
just likely but they are fair game for such and should expect it.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

MIS recommends QTR or IJC/OPM on their website for
using UT inks on a 2200. So I guess these systems do
have some "inkset vendor/manufacturers support." But
as lifelong Apple user I too experience the same
frustrations in the "lack of cross development" arena.
I just live with alternatives. OSX with its UNIX base
has improved this a lot. Anyhoo Windoze users can use
QTR with a Linux setup and a bunch of people on this
list help each other out regularly with the Linux
configuration so it is very possible. QTR is a labor
of love on this list so jump in the water is warm.

John E.

--- "Editor P.O.V. Image Service"
<editor@...> wrote:
> Roger Sopher wrote:
> 
> >Quite the diatribe - 
> >  
> >
> Nope.. It's fact.  Too bad if it's uncomfortable for
> the vendor or some 
> of the end-user supporters of the products.
> 
> >Just for the record, QTR works very well with OS X,
> in fact was written
> >specifically for OS X and moreover is a simple
> installation and work
> >flow. Printing from Wintel does require a Linux set
> up but that is not
> >particularly difficult either and produces quality
> results. 
> >
> And you expect inkset vendor/manufacturers to
> support/recommend the 
> products based upon that option..? You must be
> kidding Roy..  Speak to 
> the inkset vendor/manufacturer decision-makers
> yourself and you'll hear 
> exactly what I'm repeating here..
> 
> The Linux on a WinTel network is a nice option..
> Unfortunately, it 
> relegates the products to a niche market within a
> niche market.. Those 
> willing to go that route as a subset of those
> pursuing quality B&W 
> output from Inkjets..
> 
> Additionally, AFAIK, setting up the box on a Linux
> printer host/server 
> means you lose the Windoze EPSON printer driver
> functionality 
> entirely... (Which may be an issue for some
> potential end-users)
> 
> >Considering
> >that QTR is free for the asking and the author and
> users are generous
> >with help, neither QTR nor the author deserve your
> comments.
> >  
> >
> Roger.. Feel free to read my  original post SLOWLY. 
> The vast majority 
> of the negative commentary is directed at Bowhaus.. 
> Roy never promised 
> a WinTel version.. In fact, part of my point was
> that AT LEAST QTR has 
> what IJC/OPM only promises (a working OS X) version.
> [Admittedly, I was 
> mistaken in saying that it WILL likely have a sooner
> OS X port.. it has 
> one already)
> 
> 
> >I would suggest that you owe Roy Harrington an
> apology.
> >  
> >
> Since I, in no way attacked Roy or QTR, I have not
> intention of offering 
> such an apology....
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
> 
> "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's
> largest EPSON printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets
> and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
>  
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to
> bang the rocks together 
> guys"
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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john eckenrode wrote:

>MIS recommends QTR or IJC/OPM on their website for
>using UT inks on a 2200. So I guess these systems do
>have some "inkset vendor/manufacturers support."
>
When did you last check that?

Here are the Quad Black Workflow related pages from their current site 
(changed 29 October 2003):

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow.html

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow_roark.html


The only mentions of QTR or OPM/IJC I can find on their site are:

"Recently, we produced some 2200 carts to work with the Bowhaus and 
Quadtone Rip software."

and under their 2200 UT cartridge listing:
"Note:    Bowhaus <http://www.bowhaus.com/inkjetcontrol> (Mac OS9) or 
Quadtone Rip <http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html> (Mac OSX or Linux 
PC) is required for these Ultratone cartridges. Does not work with Roark 
workflow."

Keep in mind that Roark Workflows and neither QTR nor OPM/IJC are 
recommended or even mentioned  as options for the  pre 2200 printers I 
focused my commentary upon.

I DO expect that there will be Roark Curve style cartridges available 
from MIS for the 2200 in the foreseeable future.

I also expect that without a relatively short-term introduction (or 
until one) of a WinTel version of the Bowhaus offerings you won't see 
further Bowhaus oriented offerings from MIS or other  inkset 
vendors/manufacturers.

It may not be news anyone likes to hear but that's the current suttlebut 
around the industry..

> QTR is a labor
>of love on this list so jump in the water is warm.
>  
>
Agreed, and Roy (as well as all those on their list and this one who 
toss in their support) is owed a debt of gratitude by the Digital B&W 
community.  Let's just say that I clearly differ my position on Roy from 
my  reportage about what I hear around the biz regarding the Bowhaus 
offerings..

Anyone from Bowhaus is CERTAINLY ALWAYS welcome to correct me if what I 
hear about a WinTel version of their product is inaccurate...

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

> With only an OS9 version AFAIK currently available.. one must wonder
> aloud what the decision-makers at Bowhaus are thinking...  Given both
> the numbers of Classic Mac OS users migrating to OS X and  the VASTLY
> larger installed base of WinTel boxes (an order of magnitude) it gives
> one immediate pause to hear this info (confirmed by several industry
> sources)...

The message below came from Joe at Bowhaus last week. Don't know about the
M$ Windoze--maybe working on three versions (OS9, OSX, WinTel) would strap
their resources. I don't see them stopping OSX development to start a Win
app--they already have an installed base of Mac users they probably want to
upgrade first. I don't think they are a very big company.

Jon

>>>

Hello Jon,

I've attached the latest OS 9 versions.  version OPM 1.02b5 and IJC 1.02

Use your original serial number to install IJC

Also,  A OS X version is very close,  every one who purchased the OS 9
version will receive a copy of the OS X, when it's released.

Joe

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" 
<editor@p...> wrote:
> My sources had recently told me that Bowhaus has AT LEAST temporarily 
> shelved active development of a Windoze version of IJC/OPM. (reportedly 
> at least UNTIL they recoup some of the $ they have invested in initial 
> product development - whatever that means). [I've been too busy with 
> movie and election work to post about this until now.]
> 
> With only an OS9 version AFAIK currently available.. one must wonder 
> aloud what the decision-makers at Bowhaus are thinking...  Given both 
> the numbers of Classic Mac OS users migrating to OS X and  the VASTLY 
> larger installed base of WinTel boxes (an order of magnitude) it gives 
> one immediate pause to hear this info (confirmed by several industry 
> sources)...
> 
> At least QTR comes in a Linux flavor as well (making an effective 
> near-term OS X port more likely).
> 
> In both cases though (QTR and IJC/OPM) I hate to tell the software 
> vendors/developers this, but I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that they will 
> have any product backing
> 
> Looks like for pre 2200 EPSON desktop printers on WinTel boxes, it's 
> "curves" for the foreseeable future if you intend to use varied inks and 
> papers (i.e. not be tied by the RIP to specific inksets)..
> 
> Can you say "missed market opportunity?"
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
> 

Since you think you know better, why not start your own win32 software company to 
satisfy that huge market you talk about and fill your pockets at the same time. 
Alternatively you may want to port CUPS and Gimp-Print to windows in order to use 
QTR. Screaming at a company that they don't deliver for your favorite OS is not really 
productive, they could scream back to you if you really want their products to change 
platforms (which might prove advantageous to you in the long run). 
Missed market opportunity? Arrogance?

Andu

px3n120x wrote:

>Since you think you know better, why not start your own win32 software company to 
>satisfy that huge market you talk about and fill your pockets at the same time. 
>  
>
SNIP

> 
>Missed market opportunity? Arrogance?
>  
>

I didn't decide to start my own software division/company as Bowhaus 
already has.

More saliently, I'm not the one whose press releaser from March 25, 2003 
says, in part:  "A Windows and OS X version of Inkjet Control will be 
announced soon."  Bowhaus is the one who made that PUBLIC commitment..  
At the very least, if what I hear is true, they owe the user 
community/public an update or correction of the old press release.

[As for your name calling and personal attack upon me I'd be VERY 
careful about crossing that line on this list.. Antonis and Martin have 
a history of little tolerance for such behavior on this list.. If you 
want to engage in personal  invective feel free to e-mail me offlist and 
I'll gladly respond in kind..]

OTOH:  I'm not wholly surprised by the passion shown or the way this is 
taken personally  by some in discussing this topic.  There seems to be, 
among some Mac-o-philes at least, a tendency to over-the-top defenses of 
products that are offered only on  Mac OS's - an attitude you rarely see 
among Windoze users (I have and do use BOTH OS's - and have equally 
castigated vendors for dropping Mac OS support, or failing to offer 
products in Mac versions that had particular use or no competing/similar 
product type offerings in the Mac market - I also do use Linux and have 
even participated in BETA'ing commercial products for the graphics 
market ported to Linux - so, I'm no OS pig/snob).  In thinking about 
this, it may be an outgrowth of the frustration of many Mac users at the 
vast amount of product offered only for WinTel - a kind of OS-based 
"good for you.. see what we deal with all the time?"..  The fact is, it 
doesn't change the economics of the decision.  I'd ask defenders and 
current users of OPM/IJC to step back for a moment and separate the 
economics from the OS issues.. This is not a Mac vs. WinTel issue, so 
let's not turn it into a nasty little subset of that debate. It's about 
whether one company is going to maintain fidelity with their press 
release and product pronouncements. It's about what effect a deviation 
from promises made might have for them and the broader market they might 
serve,  as well as what effect those same decisions could have upon the 
OS base they ALREADY serve.   If you use OPM/IJC, ask yourself this: "is 
it better for end-users if more inkset vendors/manufacturers support the 
product more broadly, and is that support more or less likely without a 
WinTel version?"

The broader the vendor/manufacturer support, the better for ALL users in 
the B&W digital niche market.
 

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Sorry, Keith, but I would have to say that it is you that has crossed the
line, this time into troll-like behavior.  At least for this list-member,
you are very close to falling into my kill file.

Notwithstanding that, I  agree with you that if a company makes a
commitment, and then falls back on it, they should issue an update.  If you
had limited yourself to that (and similar) comments, I don't think the list
would have become cluttered with this thread.

Finally, while it is useful to discuss real issues, advantages, and gripes
about the different computer platforms, invitations to platform wars, such
as you seem fond of issuing, are very, very old.


Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA 02139

on 11/16/03 2:28 PM, Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:

> [As for your name calling and personal attack upon me I'd be VERY
> careful about crossing that line on this list.. Antonis and Martin have
> a history of little tolerance for such behavior on this list.. If you
> want to engage in personal  invective feel free to e-mail me offlist and
> I'll gladly respond in kind..]
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" 
<editor@p...> wrote:
> px3n120x wrote:
> 
> >Since you think you know better, why not start your own win32 software company 
to 
> >satisfy that huge market you talk about and fill your pockets at the same time. 
> >  
> >
> SNIP
> 
> > 
> >Missed market opportunity? Arrogance?
> >  
> >
> 
> [As for your name calling and personal attack upon me I'd be VERY 
> careful about crossing that line on this list.. Antonis and Martin have 
> a history of little tolerance for such behavior on this list.. If you 
> want to engage in personal  invective feel free to e-mail me offlist and 
> I'll gladly respond in kind..]

Nothing personal and didn't call you anything but in this day and age when there are 
zillions of choices of both platforms and software for you-name-it, to hear yet more 
dissatisfaction about why this or that is not available on my platform (as if it should),  
is mind bugling. If you use a Mac as you say below I just don't see the problem.
Unless your point is that Widows compatibility is a must for every developer which I'm 
sure many of them would disagree with.

> 
> OTOH:  I'm not wholly surprised by the passion shown or the way this is 
> taken personally  by some in discussing this topic.  There seems to be, 
> among some Mac-o-philes at least, a tendency to over-the-top defenses of 
> products that are offered only on  Mac OS's - an attitude you rarely see 
> among Windoze users (I have and do use BOTH OS's - and have equally 
> castigated vendors for dropping Mac OS support, or failing to offer 
> products in Mac versions that had particular use or no competing/similar 
> product type offerings in the Mac market - I also do use Linux and have 
> even participated in BETA'ing commercial products for the graphics 
> market ported to Linux - so, I'm no OS pig/snob).  In thinking about 
> this, it may be an outgrowth of the frustration of many Mac users at the 
> vast amount of product offered only for WinTel - a kind of OS-based 
> "good for you.. see what we deal with all the time?"..  The fact is, it 
> doesn't change the economics of the decision.  I'd ask defenders and 
> current users of OPM/IJC to step back for a moment and separate the 
> economics from the OS issues.. This is not a Mac vs. WinTel issue, so 
> let's not turn it into a nasty little subset of that debate. It's about 
> whether one company is going to maintain fidelity with their press 
> release and product pronouncements. It's about what effect a deviation 
> from promises made might have for them and the broader market they might 
> serve,  as well as what effect those same decisions could have upon the 
> OS base they ALREADY serve.   If you use OPM/IJC, ask yourself this: "is 
> it better for end-users if more inkset vendors/manufacturers support the 
> product more broadly, and is that support more or less likely without a 
> WinTel version?"
> 
> The broader the vendor/manufacturer support, the better for ALL users in 
> the B&W digital niche market.
>  
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
> 
> "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
>  
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
> guys"

Andu,

Of course it is a missed market opportunity; ~95% of computer users use PCs.
Bowhaus can only sell to ~5% of the possible market. It is as simple as
that. Nothing arrogant about stating that surely? It doesn't matter which OS
is your favourite; which ones do the potential customers buy is surely more
important. Unless Bowhaus has info that shows that PC users would not buy
their program (because they don't do digital imaging?), their is a large
market there waiting for a cheap competitor to ImagePrint.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "px3n120x" <px3n120x@...>
> >
>
> Since you think you know better, why not start your own win32 software
company to
> satisfy that huge market you talk about and fill your pockets at the same
time.
> Alternatively you may want to port CUPS and Gimp-Print to windows in order
to use
> QTR. Screaming at a company that they don't deliver for your favorite OS
is not really
> productive, they could scream back to you if you really want their
products to change

> platforms (which might prove advantageous to you in the long run).
> Missed market opportunity? Arrogance?
>
> Andu

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" <bobfrost@b...> 
wrote:
> Andu,
> 
> Of course it is a missed market opportunity; ~95% of computer users use PCs.
> Bowhaus can only sell to ~5% of the possible market. It is as simple as
> that. Nothing arrogant about stating that surely?

I don't think it's as simple as that. While 95% of people use windows and the rest macs 
(not to count the increasing number of linux users) there's no way to know how many of 
those widows users actually do B&W digital printing. As far as I can tell most of them use 
macs specially that now with CUPS, network printing is so easy. 
Anyway, I doubt that developers who don't serve the Windows market right away are 
really that stupid as to not know (if) what they are missing, maybe there's more to it then 
just the percentage and the simple  logic you mention. 

> It doesn't matter which OS
> is your favourite; which ones do the potential customers buy is surely more
> important. Unless Bowhaus has info that shows that PC users would not buy
> their program (because they don't do digital imaging?), their is a large
> market there waiting for a cheap competitor to ImagePrint.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "px3n120x" <px3n120x@y...>
> > >
> >
> > Since you think you know better, why not start your own win32 software
> company to
> > satisfy that huge market you talk about and fill your pockets at the same
> time.
> > Alternatively you may want to port CUPS and Gimp-Print to windows in order
> to use
> > QTR. Screaming at a company that they don't deliver for your favorite OS
> is not really
> > productive, they could scream back to you if you really want their
> products to change
> > platforms (which might prove advantageous to you in the long run).
> > Missed market opportunity? Arrogance?
> >
> > Andu

Exactly, Bill. I agree and I don't think it could be put more succinctly.

I don't see anything here other than conjecture, anyway.

I think that in twelve years on both Mac's and PC's this is the first time
I've seen the problem be software supported ONLY on the Mac platform. I
don't know how many times I've been disappointed because it has been the
other way around.

It might behoove people to reflect on this before they post.

Jon

> Sorry, Keith, but I would have to say that it is you that has crossed the
> line, this time into troll-like behavior.  At least for this list-member,
> you are very close to falling into my kill file.
> 
> Notwithstanding that, I  agree with you that if a company makes a
> commitment, and then falls back on it, they should issue an update.  If you
> had limited yourself to that (and similar) comments, I don't think the list
> would have become cluttered with this thread.
> 
> Finally, while it is useful to discuss real issues, advantages, and gripes
> about the different computer platforms, invitations to platform wars, such
> as you seem fond of issuing, are very, very old.
> 
> 
> Bill Morse
> PhotoProspect
> Cambridge, MA 02139

px3n120x wrote:

>
>Nothing personal and didn't call you anything but in this day and age when there are 
>zillions of choices of both platforms and software for you-name-it, to hear yet more 
>dissatisfaction about why this or that is not available on my platform (as if it should),  
>is mind bugling.
>
There is not a similar WinTel product.. THat is the point, and why I 
call it a "missed opportunity."

> If you use a Mac as you say below I just don't see the problem.
>Unless your point is that Widows compatibility is a must for every developer which I'm 
>sure many of them would disagree with.
>  
>
The fact that I do use both platforms doesn't mean I want to dedicate an 
iBook to playing print server any more than I want to install a Linux 
box and lose the Windows driver functionality..

Beyond that, I'm NOT the issue.. The broader market is..

ESPECIALLY when as with serious B&W printing you already are dealing 
with a niche market, why throw away ANY OS based segment of the 
market..  I'd be saying the SAME thing, but to a lesser degree based in 
simple economics, was the product a WinTel only product...

In fact, I have done so if there aren't parallel or similar Mac 
offerings already, for example: I have made the point with WinTel only 
offerings like Filters Unlimited, Bryce (who Corel is apparently 
dropping the  ac version of), Plugin Manager, Buzz Pro and some of the 
B&W conversion plugins hitherto, that Macs constitute a disproportionate 
part of the high end graphics market - so, especially for higher end 
products, they should offer unique products that have no similar 
competing products on both platforms....  We won't EVEN get into how 
much I'd love a Linux native version of  PhotoShop..

In my PERSONAL case, given that I already have OS 9 lying around, adding 
a used desktop or tower Mac to my intranet may make the most sense... 
Then I could conceivably retain BOTH EPSON driver functionality and use 
OPM/IJC.. (or am I mistaken in that belief?) 

So..... Do any of you Mac believers know what a rational minimal 
configuration (which CPU, how much RAM, HD space, etc.) would be for 
running OPM/IJC on a networked Mac (also assuming I intend to use the 
last pre OS X update of OS 9)? I want to make sure that I can print 
files of at least 200-300 mb (16x20 inch prints - and perhaps up to 
500-600mb on occasion) without the Finder and  GUI acting like they took 
'ludes..


 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

> So..... Do any of you Mac believers know what a rational minimal 
> configuration (which CPU, how much RAM, HD space, etc.) would be for 
> running OPM/IJC on a networked Mac (also assuming I intend to use the 
> last pre OS X update of OS 9)? I want to make sure that I can print 
> files of at least 200-300 mb (16x20 inch prints - and perhaps up to 
> 500-600mb on occasion) without the Finder and  GUI acting like they
took 
> 'ludes..
> 
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs

Hi Keith,

I use from G3s and up and I can tell you  thaat any of these computers
with a minimum (for the size of the files you mention) of 512 MB ram
will do the job trouble free. 
In my experience, IJC/OPM works far better under OS X, which then runs
it under classic. This way, the possibility of having the Finder and 
GUI acting like they took  'ludes will hardly be a problem. And also,
doing it this way will allow you (if you have enough ram, that is...)
to keep working on other stuff at the same time!!!

Of course, the more ram, the better (this applies to any platform) and
as to the hard disk space... well, if your files are 500 to 600 Mbs, 
I want to think you have a pretty large disk, and if you don't, you
should, this wether you own a Mac, a PC w/windoze or whichever...

I personally leave a G3 for printing and haven't had any problems
what-so-ever. Works just beautifully!!!

Enjoy your MAC... you'll find the great beneffits of it for HIGH END
GRAPHICS (that's what fine art black & white printing is all about,
isn't it?)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "px3n120x"
<px3n120x@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V.
Image Service" 
> <editor@p...> wrote:
> > px3n120x wrote:
> > 
This is probably the only reasonable answer I've read here. This
debate is not getting anywhere and is -in fact- getting out of the line!
You use the OS that you own and you use it with what you have
available for it. And if what you have doesn't suit your needs, it's
time for you to look for other solutions, be it being a multiplatform
user (which I am) or whatever. Argueing wont solve your problems at
all. Actions will! And further more, if it all comes down to a budget
problem... it's time to get CREATIVE



> > >Since you think you know better, why not start your own win32
software company 
> to 
> > >satisfy that huge market you talk about and fill your pockets at
the same time. 
> > >  
> > >
> > SNIP
> > 
> > > 
> > >Missed market opportunity? Arrogance?
> > >  
> > >
> > 
> > [As for your name calling and personal attack upon me I'd be VERY 
> > careful about crossing that line on this list.. Antonis and Martin
have 
> > a history of little tolerance for such behavior on this list.. If you 
> > want to engage in personal  invective feel free to e-mail me
offlist and 
> > I'll gladly respond in kind..]
> 
> Nothing personal and didn't call you anything but in this day and
age when there are 
> zillions of choices of both platforms and software for you-name-it,
to hear yet more 
> dissatisfaction about why this or that is not available on my
platform (as if it should),  
> is mind bugling. If you use a Mac as you say below I just don't see
the problem.
> Unless your point is that Widows compatibility is a must for every
developer which I'm 
> sure many of them would disagree with.
> 
> > 
> > OTOH:  I'm not wholly surprised by the passion shown or the way
this is 
> > taken personally  by some in discussing this topic.  There seems
to be, 
> > among some Mac-o-philes at least, a tendency to over-the-top
defenses of 
> > products that are offered only on  Mac OS's - an attitude you
rarely see 
> > among Windoze users (I have and do use BOTH OS's - and have equally 
> > castigated vendors for dropping Mac OS support, or failing to offer 
> > products in Mac versions that had particular use or no
competing/similar 
> > product type offerings in the Mac market - I also do use Linux and
have 
> > even participated in BETA'ing commercial products for the graphics 
> > market ported to Linux - so, I'm no OS pig/snob).  In thinking about 
> > this, it may be an outgrowth of the frustration of many Mac users
at the 
> > vast amount of product offered only for WinTel - a kind of OS-based 
> > "good for you.. see what we deal with all the time?"..  The fact
is, it 
> > doesn't change the economics of the decision.  I'd ask defenders and 
> > current users of OPM/IJC to step back for a moment and separate the 
> > economics from the OS issues.. This is not a Mac vs. WinTel issue, so 
> > let's not turn it into a nasty little subset of that debate. It's
about 
> > whether one company is going to maintain fidelity with their press 
> > release and product pronouncements. It's about what effect a
deviation 
> > from promises made might have for them and the broader market they
might 
> > serve,  as well as what effect those same decisions could have
upon the 
> > OS base they ALREADY serve.   If you use OPM/IJC, ask yourself
this: "is 
> > it better for end-users if more inkset vendors/manufacturers
support the 
> > product more broadly, and is that support more or less likely
without a 
> > WinTel version?"
> > 
> > The broader the vendor/manufacturer support, the better for ALL
users in 
> > the B&W digital niche market.
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > Keith Krebs
> > 
> > "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON
printer 
> > User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> > Publications), at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
> >  
> > "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks
together 
> > guys"

john eckenrode wrote:

> Anyhoo Windoze users can use
>QTR with a Linux setup and a bunch of people on this
>list help each other out regularly with the Linux
>configuration so it is very possible. QTR is a labor
>of love on this list so jump in the water is warm.
>  
>

Ok, I may be about to give QTR a try...

Of course, the machine I formerly used to play with Linux on is now a 
Windoze print server...

1)    So, if I run QTR on another machine  can I use Samba to output to 
a 1270 on a Windows XP Print Server?

2)   Has anyone tried running QTR on an emulated Redhat 9.0 installation? 

I'm thinking of trying the following:

Running VM Ware with a RedHat 9.0 guest operating system on either the 
Print Server hosting the 1270 and 1280 or running it on another client 
machine on the network.

Basically what I want to see is if I can print:

1)    Using QTR 2  on a virtual RedHat session from a network client to 
Windows XP printers via SAMBA.

2)   Using QTR 2 on a virtual RedHat session  hosted on the Windows XP 
printserver to the 1270 and/or 1280 on that server.

Personally, I think  option #1 would be most attractive if it works..  
Then I could invoke QTR 2 from within a virtual Linux session on a 
machine other than my  server or main production machine.  I'd prefer no 
to run it on the printserver, if possible, as only one OS at-a-time can 
control a USB port on the VMWare host system..

If neither option works, I'll probably cobble together a super cheap 
Linux 9.0 print server with two parallel ports and use the parallel 
ports to print to the 1270 and 1280- via QTR 2 on Linux, while leaving 
the USB ports hooked up to the Windows XP printserver.

Any thoughts from those of you using QTR 2 on Linux?


 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" 
<editor@p...> wrote:
> john eckenrode wrote:
> 
<snip>
> 
> If neither option works, I'll probably cobble together a super cheap 
> Linux 9.0 print server with two parallel ports and use the parallel 
> ports to print to the 1270 and 1280- via QTR 2 on Linux, while leaving 
> the USB ports hooked up to the Windows XP printserver.
> 
> Any thoughts from those of you using QTR 2 on Linux?

My advice, in order to avoid unnecessary possible frustrations is to either dedicate a 
box to linux or a partition. I suggest not letting RH install CUPS or Gimp-Print for you 
since they have a reputation of putting things in strange locations, download the 
sources and compile and install in their default locations, most likely /usr/local/ so 
that you know where they are in case you need to change something. 
Linux/OSX-->Windows communication via Samba apparently is great though I never 
used it, it is the default protocol when using OSX as a print server in a mixed 
environment. While I don't use QTR with Linux others I'm sure can help with details.
Also remember, you can use USB besides the parallel ports.

Andu

> 
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
>