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Digital BW, The Print

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Sprayed RC paper

Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Paul Roark

I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  That is, I used a
damp paper towel to clean the surface of the print, and there was no sign of
any smearing or other problems.  (Without the spray the ink rubs off with a
damp paper towel.)

 

So, I think we may be very close to the goal l had pursued with the
polyurethane coating - a print with a dmax or 2.2+, minimal reflective
artifacts, and a tough, washable surface that needs no glazing.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Steve Kale

And you believe that PremierArt Print Shield is quite possibly the same as
Lyson Print Guard?  This is useful as, to the best of my knowledge, the
former is not available in the UK.  I would love to have this confirmed
somehow (I was about to try to order some PremierArt Print Shield in the US
and have a friend transport it to the UK).

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:19:33 -0800
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  That is, I used a
damp paper towel to clean the surface of the print, and there was no sign of
any smearing or other problems.  (Without the spray the ink rubs off with a
damp paper towel.)

 

So, I think we may be very close to the goal l had pursued with the
polyurethane coating - a print with a dmax or 2.2+, minimal reflective
artifacts, and a tough, washable surface that needs no glazing.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Tom Baker

Paul  -
 
This was too easy.  What are you going to do now that you don't have a challenge?
 
Tom Baker

Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:
I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  That is, I used a
damp paper towel to clean the surface of the print, and there was no sign of
any smearing or other problems.  (Without the spray the ink rubs off with a
damp paper towel.)



So, I think we may be very close to the goal l had pursued with the
polyurethane coating - a print with a dmax or 2.2+, minimal reflective
artifacts, and a tough, washable surface that needs no glazing.



Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Steve Kale

Sorry but a silly question:  what does RC actually stand for?

Oh and on the lighter side....a word of warning:  don¹t leave a can Lyson
Print Guard lying around when your cleaner comes over and irons your shirts
­ I now have at least three shirts with a ³protective coating² which
³renders water soluble prints waterproof and greatly enhances UV light
resistance to fading².


Subject: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

<I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  >


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Tom Baker

Steve  -
 
You might want to check before having a friend try to carry them back.  I order mine through a distributor here, and they just in last few months, have gotten the proper paper work, or something, to be able ship this stuff on a common carrier.  I don't know if it was because of the product, or just something that the supplier had done/not done.  Your friend may have a problem getting them on an airplane.  
 
Tom baker

Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
And you believe that PremierArt Print Shield is quite possibly the same as
Lyson Print Guard?  This is useful as, to the best of my knowledge, the
former is not available in the UK.  I would love to have this confirmed
somehow (I was about to try to order some PremierArt Print Shield in the US
and have a friend transport it to the UK).

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:19:33 -0800
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  That is, I used a
damp paper towel to clean the surface of the print, and there was no sign of
any smearing or other problems.  (Without the spray the ink rubs off with a
damp paper towel.)



So, I think we may be very close to the goal l had pursued with the
polyurethane coating - a print with a dmax or 2.2+, minimal reflective
artifacts, and a tough, washable surface that needs no glazing.



Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Tom Baker

Steve  -
 
Resin Coated.  So, now you have some resin coated shirts.  Maybe you've started a new trend.
 
Tom Baker

Steve Kale <stevekale@btinternet.com> wrote:
Sorry but a silly question:  what does RC actually stand for?

Oh and on the lighter side....a word of warning:  don�t leave a can Lyson
Print Guard lying around when your cleaner comes over and irons your shirts
� I now have at least three shirts with a �protective coating� which
�renders water soluble prints waterproof and greatly enhances UV light
resistance to fading�.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Subject: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

<I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  >


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Steve Kale

Well you have all heard about London's propensity for precipitation...Perha=
ps I ought 
to patent the idea.  Did I hear Polyurethane on Cotton is the new mantra?  =
I will let you 
all now how the damp tests perform (and later the fade tests!).

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Steve  -
>  
> Resin Coated.  So, now you have some resin coated shirts.  Maybe you've s=
tarted a 
new trend.
>  
> Tom Baker
> 
> Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Sorry but a silly question:  what does RC actually stand for?
> 
> Oh and on the lighter side....a word of warning:  don¹t leave a can Lyson=

> Print Guard lying around when your cleaner comes over and irons your shir=
ts
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> ­ I now have at least three shirts with a ³protective coating² which
> ³renders water soluble prints waterproof and greatly enhances UV light
> resistance to fading².
>

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Steve Kale

Yes that's largely why I am hoping that they are indeed the same product.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:43:56 -0800 (PST)
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper
> 
> Steve  -
> 
> You might want to check before having a friend try to carry them back.  I
> order mine through a distributor here, and they just in last few months, have
> gotten the proper paper work, or something, to be able ship this stuff on a
> common carrier.  I don't know if it was because of the product, or just
> something that the supplier had done/not done.  Your friend may have a problem
> getting them on an airplane.
> 
> Tom baker
>

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Carl Schofield

That is good news Paul.  Did you apply just a single coat?  Does the  
PrintShield eliminate or significantly reduce bronzing?

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wednesday, December 10, 2003, at 03:19  PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
> PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  That is, I  
> used a
> damp paper towel to clean the surface of the print, and there was no  
> sign of
> any smearing or other problems.  (Without the spray the ink rubs off  
> with a
> damp paper towel.)
>
>
>
> So, I think we may be very close to the goal l had pursued with the
> polyurethane coating - a print with a dmax or 2.2+, minimal reflective
> artifacts, and a tough, washable surface that needs no glazing.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
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>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from  
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the  
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER”  
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE  
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),  
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF  
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER  
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

RE: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Paul Roark

Steve,

>And you believe that PremierArt Print Shield is quite possibly the same as
>Lyson Print Guard?  

Yes, it appears to be from all I can tell except that the Lyson-sprayed
print seems to have a bit more bronzing left.  I suspect this difference is
that my spraying was not quite the same.  So, it's probably going to take
some experimenting to get the optimum technique.

>... I would love to have this confirmed...

The cans and labels look almost identical -- even the wording.  They smell
the same.  I'd be amazed if they were not coming off the same production
line. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@verizon.net>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:19:33 -0800
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  That is, I used a
damp paper towel to clean the surface of the print, and there was no sign of
any smearing or other problems.  (Without the spray the ink rubs off with a
damp paper towel.)

 

So, I think we may be very close to the goal l had pursued with the
polyurethane coating - a print with a dmax or 2.2+, minimal reflective
artifacts, and a tough, washable surface that needs no glazing.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Tom Baker

Paul  -
 
What would be the differences in spraying technique that could cause differences in broning cancellation?  Distance, speed, coats?
 
Tom Baker

Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:
Steve,

>And you believe that PremierArt Print Shield is quite possibly the same as
>Lyson Print Guard?  

Yes, it appears to be from all I can tell except that the Lyson-sprayed
print seems to have a bit more bronzing left.  I suspect this difference is
that my spraying was not quite the same.  So, it's probably going to take
some experimenting to get the optimum technique.

>... I would love to have this confirmed...

The cans and labels look almost identical -- even the wording.  They smell
the same.  I'd be amazed if they were not coming off the same production
line. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:19:33 -0800
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  That is, I used a
damp paper towel to clean the surface of the print, and there was no sign of
any smearing or other problems.  (Without the spray the ink rubs off with a
damp paper towel.)



So, I think we may be very close to the goal l had pursued with the
polyurethane coating - a print with a dmax or 2.2+, minimal reflective
artifacts, and a tough, washable surface that needs no glazing.



Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Steve Kale

Thanks.  I think I will stick with the Lyson rather than trying to import
the PremierArt product.  This is good news.  And RC = resin coated?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:35:23 -0800
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

Steve,

>And you believe that PremierArt Print Shield is quite possibly the same as
>Lyson Print Guard?

Yes, it appears to be from all I can tell except that the Lyson-sprayed
print seems to have a bit more bronzing left.  I suspect this difference is
that my spraying was not quite the same.  So, it's probably going to take
some experimenting to get the optimum technique.

>... I would love to have this confirmed...

The cans and labels look almost identical -- even the wording.  They smell
the same.  I'd be amazed if they were not coming off the same production
line. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Holy Grail?

2003-12-10 by Truman Prevatt

A few years ago when I decided to forgo building yet another darkroom in 
another house - it may have had something to do with a divorce 
threat:-). I was disappointed that I could not exactly reproduce the 
look of my silver prints fiber based gloss photographic paper.

Over the past year I have learmed to appreciate what my 1280 and VM inks 
can do on Photo Rag. I just got a set of UT carts so I'm looking forward 
to that. No it will never reproduce the same images as Brillance or 
Seagull, but I've learned to look beyond that to look even more to the 
image. The highlights on this paper with the VM ink are subtle and 
delicate. The highlights on Seagull can hit you in the head. There is a 
difference and after a time I've have come to appriciate the strengths 
of digital prints on matt paper.

It's not better, but it's not inferior. It's a different medium. I have 
almost come to the conclusion that we are some how chasing the Holy 
Grail trying to do the same exact thing we did the the darkroom with 
paper and ink. I have - after lots of practice - some very nice images 
on Photo Rag. In fact I have some of the same negatives printed on Photo 
Rag that are better than I could ever get them in the wet darkroom on 
Seagull.  Of course some images will require to high dynamic range (high 
Dmax) that can't be achieved on matt paper. But all in all I am quite 
pleased with what I am now seeing coming out of my printer.

So pleased that I will give the paper companies a few more years to 
figure out this bronzing problem. After they do I will add glossy papers 
to my stock but I sure won't stop printing on matt paper.

Truman

RE: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-10 by Paul Roark

>Did you apply just a single coat?

I used about 3 light coats.  I don't have a specific technique yet.  I like
the idea of 3-4 light coats with a blow drier so that I don't have to clean
the nozzle and waste coating. 

>What would be the differences in spraying technique that could cause
>differences in bronzing cancellation?  Distance, speed, coats?

Probably all of the above -- I'm not sure what all the factors would be.

I wonder if the coating absorbs moisture that that could be trapped inside.
I might try some experiments to see of a blow drier before spraying to get
the moisture out has any effect.

>Does the PrintShield eliminate or significantly reduce bronzing?

The significant reduction in the bronzing, along with proper RC paper
selection -- like Epson Pro Glossy, Semi-gloss, or semi-matte -- may be
enough that I'd be willing to switch over.  I'm not convinced Premium Luster
is the best paper.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 


___________________________________________

> I'm happy to report that the Premium Luster RC paper I sprayed with
> PremierArt Print Shield passed my "wet paper towel" test.  That is, I  
> used a
> damp paper towel to clean the surface of the print, and there was no  
> sign of
> any smearing or other problems.  (Without the spray the ink rubs off  
> with a
> damp paper towel.)
>
>
>
> So, I think we may be very close to the goal l had pursued with the
> polyurethane coating - a print with a dmax or 2.2+, minimal reflective
> artifacts, and a tough, washable surface that needs no glazing.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-10 by john eckenrode

i agree Truman. in fact i went to inkjet so i could
get color on matte. i like it so much more than the RC
paper color is always on. same with B&W. when we can
get an air dried fiber look, i will use it in addition
to matte printing. but not at the expense of matte.
right on 
john e

--- Truman Prevatt <tprevatt@...> wrote:
So pleased that I will give the paper companies a
> few more years to 
> figure out this bronzing problem. After they do I
> will add glossy papers 
> to my stock but I sure won't stop printing on matt
> paper.
> 
> Truman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-11 by Ken Schuster

R..esin C..coated. It was a Kodak trade name for
plastic-laminated-paper-with-emulsion-on-top. Other photographic emulsion paper
manufacturers were prohibited from using the term for many years, but like some
other trade names, such as Kleenex and Aspirin, "the courts" somehow were able
to determine that RC had become a generic term.
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Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Steve Kale
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper


Sorry but a silly question:  what does RC actually stand for?
...snip...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: The Holy Grail?

2003-12-11 by Mitch Alland

> I was disappointed that I could not exactly reproduce the  look of my 
> silver prints fiber based gloss photographic paper.
>
> Over the past year I have learmed to appreciate what my 1280 and VM 
> inks can do on Photo Rag...No it will never reproduce the same images 
> as Brillance or Seagull, but I've learned to look beyond that to look 
> even more to the image. The highlights on this paper with the VM ink 
> are subtle and delicate. The highlights on Seagull can hit you in the 
> head. There is a difference and after a time I've have come to 
> appriciate the strengths of digital prints on matt paper.

I have also been thinking about the difference between prints on matte 
and glossy-type paper. Actually this is not a new issue: in his book, 
"The Print", Ansel Adams stated that he preferred using air dried 
glossy paper because of its much greater "reflective range", something 
like 1:400 vs a much smaller range (1:200?) for matte papers. (As I 
don't have the book here, I can't give you the exact figures.) It's 
clear from the physics of light and the composition of the papers that 
glossy papers will always produce deeper blacks and a longer tonal 
range as well as better gradation. To yearn for the same from matte 
papers is to wish for constant disappointment.

Here's an excerpt from a 2001 interview with Ralph Gibson:

> Question: Have you tried printing with the quad tone inks, like the 
> ones from MIS (www.InkSupply.com).
>
> Ralph: I have. And I�ve gone to InkjetMall.com (Cone Editions). I�m 
> pretty much abreast of what�s going on. And I have used those inks, 
> and they�re great. It�s just that they�re not better or worse than 
> photographs. They coexist. They�re not photographs. They�re another 
> kind of very beautiful print.

He is of course talking about prints on matte papers. These prints have 
their own aesthetic and many, in my view, are closer to platinum prints 
than to silver prints. For photographs that don't need deep blacks and 
that stress the mid-tones, these prints can be very beautiful. Most 
people also like the look and tactile feel of the matte papers although 
this disappears when prints are framed under glass.

But I like deep blacks and the greater dynamic range that glossy papers 
provide. I have before me the prints of the same photograph printed on 
the 7600 with the ImagePrint using Matte Black on EEM and using Photo 
Black on Epson Semi-Matte. For what I like, the latter is much better. 
Indeed, looking at the two prints side-by-side, there is really no 
comparison for this photograph:  the Photo Black/Semi-Matte print has 
deeper blacks, a longer tonal range, much better and smoother 
differentiation of tones -- in the shadows, in the mid-tones and in the 
high-lights: there is substantially better contrast in all these tonal 
areas. The only problem with the Semi-Matte print is the slight 
bronzing under changing angles of light. So the holy grail -- the look 
of the air dried look of a glossy silver print -- has not yet been 
grasped.

--Mitch/Bangkok

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-11 by Carl Schofield

On Wednesday, December 10, 2003, at 06:40  PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> The significant reduction in the bronzing, along with proper RC paper
> selection -- like Epson Pro Glossy, Semi-gloss, or semi-matte -- may be
> enough that I'd be willing to switch over.  I'm not convinced Premium 
> Luster
> is the best paper.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

PermaJet Oyster 271 might be another RC option to try.  The surface 
looks like a semi matte finish.  Dmax with UC Photo black is about 2.1. 
  I tried it with just Eboni BO printing and it look very nice - dead 
neutral and no bronzing (but a slight gloss differential between 100% K 
and the 3/4 tones).  However, dmax of the Eboni is only about 1.5 on 
this paper without any spray coating and it does rub off quite easily.  
Bronzing is as bad as all of the other RC papers with either the full 
UC or UT inkset and the Photo K, but I haven't tried the new spray 
treatment.

Carl Schofield

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-11 by Ken Carney

Indeed.  It is a little like pt/pd compared to silver.  For a long time I
printed silver, usually Seagull G or Portriga.  After printing pt/pd for a
while, I would go to an exhibit by an artist who specialized in ultra-sharp
silver prints, e.g., Howard Bond, and it was like looking into a
searchlight.  I recently had the opportunity to go through the 9/11 b&w
prints by Kevin Bubriski, printed on 20x20" silver by him.  They are
masterful, and I doubt that any inkjet process could capture the moments as
well.  But, I don't do PJ...I do abstract landscapes, infrared and such, for
which inkjet is well suited.  Like a very good gravure.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Truman Prevatt [mailto:tprevatt@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 5:32 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


>>The highlights on this paper with the VM ink are subtle and
delicate. The highlights on Seagull can hit you in the head. There is a
difference and after a time I've have come to appriciate the strengths
of digital prints on matt paper.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: The Holy Grail?

2003-12-11 by Truman Prevatt

Given the physics of reflectivity involved for - different ink 
concentrations will have different reflectivity - I am wondering if the 
holy grail will ever be grasped. In the air dried silver print the 
silver was in the emulsion and the reflectance was mostly defined by the 
emulsions - the amount of exposed and developed silver determined the 
gray value but not the reflectance. With inks, the ink load seems to 
have a much larger effect on the reflectance. 

I guess the quest for the holy grail is what the adventure is all about.

Truman

Mitch Alland wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>bronzing under changing angles of light. So the holy grail -- the look 
>of the air dried look of a glossy silver print -- has not yet been 
>grasped.
>
>--Mitch/Bangkok
>
>
>  
>

Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-11 by Tom Baker

Truman  -
 
I agree.  And I believe that many of us are producing better presentations of the old silver images using digital.  It is indeed different.  Comparisons are always part of the game.  And I don't mind comparing.  It's just that if I wanted the wet look, I'd process wet.  But, the digital materials offer more alternatives than we ever realistically had in the darkroom.  Sure, some of the images from the darkroom are beyond duplication.  But far more of the images have been so improved that looking back makes no sense to me.  From the start in digital I have never been looking for that 'wet' look.  Like you, I really enjoy the looks of good digital prints.  Now, with even higher dmax on the horizon, the alternatives really expand.  It's a new excitement almost every day.
 
Tom Baker


Truman Prevatt <tprevatt@...> wrote:
A few years ago when I decided to forgo building yet another darkroom in 
another house - it may have had something to do with a divorce 
threat:-). I was disappointed that I could not exactly reproduce the 
look of my silver prints fiber based gloss photographic paper.

Over the past year I have learmed to appreciate what my 1280 and VM inks 
can do on Photo Rag. I just got a set of UT carts so I'm looking forward 
to that. No it will never reproduce the same images as Brillance or 
Seagull, but I've learned to look beyond that to look even more to the 
image. The highlights on this paper with the VM ink are subtle and 
delicate. The highlights on Seagull can hit you in the head. There is a 
difference and after a time I've have come to appriciate the strengths 
of digital prints on matt paper.

It's not better, but it's not inferior. It's a different medium. I have 
almost come to the conclusion that we are some how chasing the Holy 
Grail trying to do the same exact thing we did the the darkroom with 
paper and ink. I have - after lots of practice - some very nice images 
on Photo Rag. In fact I have some of the same negatives printed on Photo 
Rag that are better than I could ever get them in the wet darkroom on 
Seagull.  Of course some images will require to high dynamic range (high 
Dmax) that can't be achieved on matt paper. But all in all I am quite 
pleased with what I am now seeing coming out of my printer.

So pleased that I will give the paper companies a few more years to 
figure out this bronzing problem. After they do I will add glossy papers 
to my stock but I sure won't stop printing on matt paper.

Truman





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-11 by Tom Baker

For many years I tried to produce silver prints in the darkroom that look like what I am getting on digital: something akin to platinum, but not quite.  One of the freedoms of the plainum process was the ability to pick essentially whatever paper you wanted to best represent your idea.  Now that I can do that, I certainly don't want to go back.  But, the promise of 2+ dmax is great.  It's close to completing the materials selection loop.  I've got a roll of Semi-gloss, and a rool of Ultrasmooth Fine Art arriving tomorrow.  Life is good.
 
Tom Baker

john eckenrode <ejohn182002@...> wrote:
i agree Truman. in fact i went to inkjet so i could
get color on matte. i like it so much more than the RC
paper color is always on. same with B&W. when we can
get an air dried fiber look, i will use it in addition
to matte printing. but not at the expense of matte.
right on 
john e

--- Truman Prevatt <tprevatt@...> wrote:
So pleased that I will give the paper companies a
> few more years to 
> figure out this bronzing problem. After they do I
> will add glossy papers 
> to my stock but I sure won't stop printing on matt
> paper.
> 
> Truman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

__________________________________
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RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-11 by David R. Spielman

I have found a new Holy Grail.

By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them back
into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many fine prints on
air-dried, glossy fiber paper.

With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You have all of
the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have  the power
to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways that even the old
darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Ken Carney [mailto:kcarney1@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 5:47 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  Indeed.  It is a little like pt/pd compared to silver.  For a long time I
  printed silver, usually Seagull G or Portriga.  After printing pt/pd for a
  while, I would go to an exhibit by an artist who specialized in
ultra-sharp
  silver prints, e.g., Howard Bond, and it was like looking into a
  searchlight.  I recently had the opportunity to go through the 9/11 b&w
  prints by Kevin Bubriski, printed on 20x20" silver by him.  They are
  masterful, and I doubt that any inkjet process could capture the moments
as
  well.  But, I don't do PJ...I do abstract landscapes, infrared and such,
for
  which inkjet is well suited.  Like a very good gravure.

  Regards,

    --Ken Carney
      www.kencarney.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Truman Prevatt [mailto:tprevatt@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 5:32 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  >>The highlights on this paper with the VM ink are subtle and
  delicate. The highlights on Seagull can hit you in the head. There is a
  difference and after a time I've have come to appriciate the strengths
  of digital prints on matt paper.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-11 by David R. Spielman

I have found a new Holy Grail.

By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them back
into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many fine prints on
air-dried, glossy fiber paper.

With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You have all of
the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have  the power
to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways that even the old
darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Ken Carney [mailto:kcarney1@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 5:47 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  Indeed.  It is a little like pt/pd compared to silver.  For a long time I
  printed silver, usually Seagull G or Portriga.  After printing pt/pd for a
  while, I would go to an exhibit by an artist who specialized in
ultra-sharp
  silver prints, e.g., Howard Bond, and it was like looking into a
  searchlight.  I recently had the opportunity to go through the 9/11 b&w
  prints by Kevin Bubriski, printed on 20x20" silver by him.  They are
  masterful, and I doubt that any inkjet process could capture the moments
as
  well.  But, I don't do PJ...I do abstract landscapes, infrared and such,
for
  which inkjet is well suited.  Like a very good gravure.

  Regards,

    --Ken Carney
      www.kencarney.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Truman Prevatt [mailto:tprevatt@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 5:32 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  >>The highlights on this paper with the VM ink are subtle and
  delicate. The highlights on Seagull can hit you in the head. There is a
  difference and after a time I've have come to appriciate the strengths
  of digital prints on matt paper.



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GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-11 by David R. Spielman

I have found a new Holy Grail.

By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them back
into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many fine prints on
air-dried, glossy fiber paper.

With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You have all of
the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have  the power
to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways that even the old
darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Ken Carney [mailto:kcarney1@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 5:47 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  Indeed.  It is a little like pt/pd compared to silver.  For a long time I
  printed silver, usually Seagull G or Portriga.  After printing pt/pd for a
  while, I would go to an exhibit by an artist who specialized in
ultra-sharp
  silver prints, e.g., Howard Bond, and it was like looking into a
  searchlight.  I recently had the opportunity to go through the 9/11 b&w
  prints by Kevin Bubriski, printed on 20x20" silver by him.  They are
  masterful, and I doubt that any inkjet process could capture the moments
as
  well.  But, I don't do PJ...I do abstract landscapes, infrared and such,
for
  which inkjet is well suited.  Like a very good gravure.

  Regards,

    --Ken Carney
      www.kencarney.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-11 by Martin Wesley

* -----Original Message-----
* From: David R. Spielman [mailto:david@spielman.com] 
* Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 1:12 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?
* 
* 
* I have found a new Holy Grail.
* 
* By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and 
* taking them back into the traditional wet darkroom, I have 
* made many fine prints on air-dried, glossy fiber paper.
* 
* With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You 
* have all of the great silver papers that many have come to 
* love, and you have  the power to modify and manipulate your 
* images in Photoshop in ways that even the old darkroom 
* masters could not hope to achieve.
* 
David,

Thank you for that post. Would you be kind enough to post a message
outlining your workflow?

Someone recently post that this was the inkjet list. It certainly seems that
way at times but that was not the original intent and information on other
paths is most welcome.

Do you use inkjet for proofing prior to making your contact negative?

Martin Wesley
www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by J Vee

I am a long time traditional ³Carbon² Printer.  I shoot 4X5 or 11X14, drum
scan, Photoshop, print a 20² X 24² glossy on Colorspan 11 color printer,
mount on vacuum frame and shoot an 11² by 14² neg with a hoiz process camera
on rails.  Finest result you can imagine when this neg is used for the
contact printing with the traditional process.  J Vee




On 12/11/03 1:12 PM, "David R. Spielman" <david@...> wrote:

> I have found a new Holy Grail.
> 
> By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them back
> into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many fine prints on
> air-dried, glossy fiber paper.
> 
> With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You have all of
> the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have  the power
> to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways that even the old
> darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> David R. Spielman



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Paul Roark

>By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them back
>into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many fine prints on
>air-dried, glossy fiber paper.

>With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You have all of
>the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have the power
>to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways that even the old
>darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.

Or is it the worst of both worlds.  All the digital artifacts with the
darkroom smells, non-buffered paper, non-washable gelatin coating, wavy
paper from the water that needs dry mounting, questionable archival quality
without strong toning that turns the print purple, ...

You get the picture.  ;)

Seriously, I went this route once and, aside from temporary marketing
advantages, I think the silver print is or should be considered an
"alternative" process in the same category as the platinum print.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Ken Carney

I just got in the inkjet digital neg CD from Dan Burkholder, a supplement to
his excellent book.  I have used his technique in the past to make pt/pd
prints (they are forgiving due to the paper being textured), but according
to Dan his workflow will give excellent results using Pictorico white film
and silver paper.  He says the 2200 is the best yet for digital negs, so one
of these days I'll give it a try. Hard to believe it would be as satisfying
as an enlarged in-camera neg, but who knows until you try. Right now I'm
pretty happy with the 2200 and cotton paper, though it appears the IP rip is
needed for b&w or toned b&w.  Oh well, $495 isn't that much compared to the
cost of photo trips I never seem to be able to take...

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 3:41 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


* -----Original Message-----
* From: David R. Spielman [mailto:david@...]
* Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 1:12 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?
*
*
* I have found a new Holy Grail.
*
* By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and
* taking them back into the traditional wet darkroom, I have
* made many fine prints on air-dried, glossy fiber paper.
*
* With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You
* have all of the great silver papers that many have come to
* love, and you have  the power to modify and manipulate your
* images in Photoshop in ways that even the old darkroom
* masters could not hope to achieve.
*
David,

Thank you for that post. Would you be kind enough to post a message
outlining your workflow?

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by David R. Spielman

Martin,

Yes, I do use an Inkjet print as a proof before I make a negative. I use the
same Pictorico white film material to make both inkjet proof and inkjet
negative. In making the proof, I use the ICC profile for the Pictorico white
film material when printing and also use the ICC profile with the soft-proof
feature in Photoshop. I turn off all color management in Photoshop when
actually printing the negative. The inkjet proofs I print are a dead match
with the silver/gelatin prints I make with the negative. The only difference
being that the silver print does not have all of the funky color casts and
metamerism that monochrome inkjet prints, made with color Ultrachrome inks
have.

The methods I use to make these negatives are fundamentally not that much
different than those that are documented in the 'Inkjet Companion" to Dan
Burkholder's wonderful book on digital negatives. You can visit his website
and down load a copy of the document for $15.00. He does a much better job
of explaining the process than I can. :>)

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 1:41 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?



  David,

  Thank you for that post. Would you be kind enough to post a message
  outlining your workflow?

  Someone recently post that this was the inkjet list. It certainly seems
that
  way at times but that was not the original intent and information on other
  paths is most welcome.

  Do you use inkjet for proofing prior to making your contact negative?

  Martin Wesley
  www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
  www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by David R. Spielman

Dear Paul,

Being one who has seen your own silver/gelatin AND digital prints shown
side-by-side at the Solvang, CA show, I might agree with you.

BUT, not everybody has the skill or the equipment that you posses. Many of
us 'mere mortals' are still content to stay in our wet darkrooms. Using a
digital negative is a nice way to bridge the gap between the analog
photography paradigm and the digital world of inkjet printing, a world still
filled with many landmines such as clogging print heads, paper material with
fragile surface coatings that flake off if you look at them funny, bronzing
and out gassing, and a whole litany of other issues that silver photography
does not have. Making inkjet prints that have the level of excellence that
you have achieved is by no means an easy task. I've told you before that I
think your 'carbon-on-cotton' prints are in many ways far superior to any
silver/gelatin print, but I also think that the process of making them, as a
whole, should be called very high maintenance! :-)
I'm sure that as inkjet technology continues to progress out of its infancy,
we will see fewer and fewer of these problems. But for now, I'm not quite
ready to give up my darkroom completely.

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 5:16 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  >By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them back
  >into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many fine prints on
  >air-dried, glossy fiber paper.

  >With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You have all of
  >the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have the
power
  >to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways that even the
old
  >darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.

  Or is it the worst of both worlds.  All the digital artifacts with the
  darkroom smells, non-buffered paper, non-washable gelatin coating, wavy
  paper from the water that needs dry mounting, questionable archival
quality
  without strong toning that turns the print purple, ...

  You get the picture.  ;)

  Seriously, I went this route once and, aside from temporary marketing
  advantages, I think the silver print is or should be considered an
  "alternative" process in the same category as the platinum print.

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by David R. Spielman

Dear Paul,

Being one who has seen your own silver/gelatin AND digital prints shown
side-by-side at the Solvang, CA show, I might agree with you.

BUT, not everybody has the skill or the equipment that you posses. Many of
us 'mere mortals' are still content to stay in our wet darkrooms. Using a
digital negative is a nice way to bridge the gap between the analog
photography paradigm and the digital world of inkjet printing, a world still
filled with many landmines such as clogging print heads, paper material with
fragile surface coatings that flake off if you look at them funny, bronzing
and out gassing, and a whole litany of other issues that silver photography
does not have. Making inkjet prints that have the level of excellence that
you have achieved is by no means an easy task. I've told you before that I
think your 'carbon-on-cotton' prints are in many ways far superior to any
silver/gelatin print, but I also think that the process of making them, as a
whole, should be called very high maintenance! :-)
I'm sure that as inkjet technology continues to progress out of its infancy,
we will see fewer and fewer of these problems. But for now, I'm not quite
ready to give up my darkroom completely.

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 5:16 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  >By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them back
  >into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many fine prints on
  >air-dried, glossy fiber paper.

  >With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You have all of
  >the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have the
power
  >to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways that even the
old
  >darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.

  Or is it the worst of both worlds.  All the digital artifacts with the
  darkroom smells, non-buffered paper, non-washable gelatin coating, wavy
  paper from the water that needs dry mounting, questionable archival
quality
  without strong toning that turns the print purple, ...

  You get the picture.  ;)

  Seriously, I went this route once and, aside from temporary marketing
  advantages, I think the silver print is or should be considered an
  "alternative" process in the same category as the platinum print.

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Tom Baker

David  -
 
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but:  at the rate which the digital printing technologies are progressing, we may reach the easy/dependable state before your latest batch of print developer goes bad.
 
Tom Baker

"David R. Spielman" <david@...> wrote:
Dear Paul,

Being one who has seen your own silver/gelatin AND digital prints shown
side-by-side at the Solvang, CA show, I might agree with you.

BUT, not everybody has the skill or the equipment that you posses. Many of
us 'mere mortals' are still content to stay in our wet darkrooms. Using a
digital negative is a nice way to bridge the gap between the analog
photography paradigm and the digital world of inkjet printing, a world still
filled with many landmines such as clogging print heads, paper material with
fragile surface coatings that flake off if you look at them funny, bronzing
and out gassing, and a whole litany of other issues that silver photography
does not have. Making inkjet prints that have the level of excellence that
you have achieved is by no means an easy task. I've told you before that I
think your 'carbon-on-cotton' prints are in many ways far superior to any
silver/gelatin print, but I also think that the process of making them, as a
whole, should be called very high maintenance! :-)
I'm sure that as inkjet technology continues to progress out of its infancy,
we will see fewer and fewer of these problems. But for now, I'm not quite
ready to give up my darkroom completely.

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 5:16 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  >By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them back
  >into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many fine prints on
  >air-dried, glossy fiber paper.

  >With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You have all of
  >the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have the
power
  >to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways that even the
old
  >darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.

  Or is it the worst of both worlds.  All the digital artifacts with the
  darkroom smells, non-buffered paper, non-washable gelatin coating, wavy
  paper from the water that needs dry mounting, questionable archival
quality
  without strong toning that turns the print purple, ...

  You get the picture.  ;)

  Seriously, I went this route once and, aside from temporary marketing
  advantages, I think the silver print is or should be considered an
  "alternative" process in the same category as the platinum print.

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by David R. Spielman

Ken,

I also use the 2200 (with photo black ink) and the Pictorico white film
material to make digital negatives.
As I said before, the results are pretty amazing!

The process I use is not all that different than what Dan Burkholder has
written about in the inkjet companion to his book that you mentioned in your
post and I would strongly recommend getting it for anyone who wants to try
this. It only costs $15.00 to download and is well worth the money! It's a
hell of a lot cheeper than buying a $490.00 RIP.

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  From: Ken Carney [mailto:kcarney1@...]
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 6:00 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  I just got in the inkjet digital neg CD from Dan Burkholder, a supplement
to
  his excellent book.  I have used his technique in the past to make pt/pd
  prints (they are forgiving due to the paper being textured), but according
  to Dan his workflow will give excellent results using Pictorico white film
  and silver paper.  He says the 2200 is the best yet for digital negs, so
one
  of these days I'll give it a try. Hard to believe it would be as
satisfying
  as an enlarged in-camera neg, but who knows until you try. Right now I'm
  pretty happy with the 2200 and cotton paper, though it appears the IP rip
is
  needed for b&w or toned b&w.  Oh well, $495 isn't that much compared to
the
  cost of photo trips I never seem to be able to take...

  Regards,

    --Ken Carney
      www.kencarney.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by David R. Spielman

I don't know Tom, I go through print developer pretty fast!  (grin)

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:08 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


David  -

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but:  at the rate which the digital
printing technologies are progressing, we may reach the easy/dependable
state before your latest batch of print developer goes bad.

Tom Baker

"David R. Spielman" <david@...> wrote:
Dear Paul,

Being one who has seen your own silver/gelatin AND digital prints shown
side-by-side at the Solvang, CA show, I might agree with you.

BUT, not everybody has the skill or the equipment that you posses. Many of
us 'mere mortals' are still content to stay in our wet darkrooms. Using a
digital negative is a nice way to bridge the gap between the analog
photography paradigm and the digital world of inkjet printing, a world still
filled with many landmines such as clogging print heads, paper material with
fragile surface coatings that flake off if you look at them funny, bronzing
and out gassing, and a whole litany of other issues that silver photography
does not have. Making inkjet prints that have the level of excellence that
you have achieved is by no means an easy task. I've told you before that I
think your 'carbon-on-cotton' prints are in many ways far superior to any
silver/gelatin print, but I also think that the process of making them, as a
whole, should be called very high maintenance! :-)
I'm sure that as inkjet technology continues to progress out of its infancy,
we will see fewer and fewer of these problems. But for now, I'm not quite
ready to give up my darkroom completely.

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Martin Wesley

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@verizon.net] 
* Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 5:16 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?
* 
* 
* >By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them 
* >back into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many 
* fine prints on 
* >air-dried, glossy fiber paper.
* 
* >With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. 
* You have all 
* >of the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have 
* >the power to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways 
* >that even the old darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.
* 
* Or is it the worst of both worlds.  All the digital artifacts 
* with the darkroom smells, non-buffered paper, non-washable 
* gelatin coating, wavy paper from the water that needs dry 
* mounting, questionable archival quality without strong toning 
* that turns the print purple, ...
* 
* You get the picture.  ;)
* 
* Seriously, I went this route once and, aside from temporary 
* marketing advantages, I think the silver print is or should 
* be considered an "alternative" process in the same category 
* as the platinum print.

Paul,

I have to disagree with you on this one. I have silver fiber prints of Bruce
Barnbaum and Jay Dussard made by Lenswork from contract prints printed by
high resolution (3600+ dpi) image setters. There are no digital artifacts in
these prints at all and they were made a couple of years ago. I have seen a
version of the Barnbaum print hand done in a traditional manner and I can't
see any difference in quality. (The prints were dead flat too. No wave at
all just like an inkjet print. I would like to know how they did that
myself.<G>)

I tried Dan Burkholder's methods back in about 1996 and had poor results
myself but at this point in time it is obvious to me that the problems I had
can be overcome.

The only drawback I see in this method is that you have to rely on someone
else to provide the image setter output. For me this is a real stopper as I
am compulsive/obsessive and need to have full control of every step of the
process. The key is probably in finding a good service bureau to work with.
Ideally whoever Lens Work is using in Portland.

For platinum/palladium printing you really can do just fine with Epson dye
inks on Pictorico film. I have three incredible palladium prints from Mike
Kravit that he did using this method. I would challenge anyone to spot them
from palladium prints made from analog negatives.

I guess what I want to say is that if silver fiber is what turns someone on
that is the road they should follow and it can be a digital one. People
should not accept a compromise unless they absolutely have no choice.

Beyond digitally produced contact negatives there is the entire subject of
using inkjet printers to produce diffused masks for burning and dodging as
well as contrast adjustment with a traditional enlarger approach.

Like you I have committed to inkjet but I feel the silver/digital path is
very viable and not yet fully explored.

Martin

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Paul Roark

David,

>... Using a digital negative is a nice way to bridge the gap 
>between the analog photography paradigm and the digital world 
>of inkjet printing, 

Very true -- I was there for a while.

> ... digital world of inkjet printing, 
>a world still filled with many landmines such as clogging print heads,...

There are a few things that can cause clogs.  However, I have 4 printers in
my office running these pigments, and none have ever had any serious clogs.

> paper material with fragile surface coatings that flake off 

Not all papers flake -- The PremierArt/Epson Scrapbook/UltraSmooth and EEM
don't flake.  The RC papers don't flake.

> bronzing 

Spray with PremierArt Print Shield to get rid of most of this.

>and out gassing,

After spraying, the RC papers are so tough that I'm not going to use
glazing.  Then the out-gassing is irrelevant.

>Making inkjet prints that have the level of excellence that
>you have achieved is by no means an easy task.

But neither is making an excellent wet print.

Although, I think that my wet darkroom days had a lot of learning that has
carried over into the digital printing.  The elements of a good B&W print
are largely the same with both printing methods.  

I think we may be about to take another big step in inkjet printing.  MIS
may commit to UT-2 1280 carts tomorrow.  When this ink/approach is combined
with the better (archival -- see Wilhelm 9600 test) Epson RC papers and the
PremierArt spray, things get real interesting.  Easy-to-make prints with a
higher dynamic range than the silver print are hard to resist.  When they
are not hiding behind glass, the impact of that full range is going to be
very impressive.

So, bottom line, I don't think the silver print is the Holy Grail.  We are
about to go beyond the silver print in several respects for high-impact
display prints.

> 'carbon-on-cotton' prints are in many ways far superior ...

I'll still recommend this for the ultimate old photo reproductions.  Also,
RC prints got such a bad reputation in wet photography that collectors will
probably not be comfortable with them in digital either -- even if their
technical reasons for concern are probably no longer valid.  At any rate,
carbon-on-cotton in mylar sleeves may be the ultimate for archival storage.

> but I also think that the process of making them, as a
>whole, should be called very high maintenance! :-)

Well, the RGB curves turned out to be too difficult for most.  That is why
my current effort has been directed at making things easier.  I just
received the first production C82 carts today -- neutral and warm/carbon.
They're ready to go.  I think anyone will be able to do this.  MIS said the
clerical staff there love them -- finally easy enough for them to deal with.
That's a very good sign.  There is no way I'm going to tell the Genealogy
Society members to use any inkset except the "Easy" ones -- now the C82 and
UT-2 -- and in pre-loaded carts.

>...I'm not quite ready to give up my darkroom completely.

Actually, I haven't gotten rid of mine either.  I'm also glad the local high
school is teaching traditional B&W film and darkroom techniques.  (My
daughter is taking that now.)  There is a magic to seeing the negatives
emerge from the tank and prints develop in front of you under the safe
lights that those who start with digital and inkjet will miss out on.  I
think (and hope) that a fair number of people will stick with the
traditional methods for a long time.  However, I also think that digital
internegatives will be seen as compromising the "purity" of the lens-formed
image.

But, the Holy Grail, to me, is a high-dynamic-range print that is very
lightfast, "archival," and tough enough to be displayed without glazing.
The silver print isn't it.  We may be getting closer with the inkjet.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
__________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 5:16 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


  >By making digital negatives with an inkjet printer, and taking them back
  >into the traditional wet darkroom, I have made many fine prints on
  >air-dried, glossy fiber paper.

  >With digital negatives, you have the best of both worlds. You have all of
  >the great silver papers that many have come to love, and you have the
power
  >to modify and manipulate your images in Photoshop in ways that even the
old
  >darkroom masters could not hope to achieve.

  Or is it the worst of both worlds.  All the digital artifacts with the
  darkroom smells, non-buffered paper, non-washable gelatin coating, wavy
  paper from the water that needs dry mounting, questionable archival
quality
  without strong toning that turns the print purple, ...

  You get the picture.  ;)

  Seriously, I went this route once and, aside from temporary marketing
  advantages, I think the silver print is or should be considered an
  "alternative" process in the same category as the platinum print.

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Paul Roark wrote:

>Well, the RGB curves turned out to be too difficult for most.  That is why
>my current effort has been directed at making things easier. 
>

Whoa!

Are you saying the new UT-2 set on the 1280 doesn't use curves?

Are you saying you didn't create 1280 curves for the different settings 
on your new page?

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Carl Schofield

Paul,

How are you mounting and framing your RC prints for display without 
glazing?

Carl Schofield

On Friday, December 12, 2003, at 01:44  AM, Paul Roark wrote:

snip...

> After spraying, the RC papers are so tough that I'm not going to use
> glazing.  Then the out-gassing is irrelevant.

Re: The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by sceptre12345

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> Well, the RGB curves turned out to be too difficult for most.  

Paul,

I fail to comprehend how this could be. Applying an rgb adjustment 
printing curve is not only easy it's just plain simple.

Could it be that the problem lies with the lack of knowlegdge of 
Photoshop/Picture Windows. That some people did not know where to be 
them on their hard disk or did not know how to retreive them ?

Or maybe it was difficult because people wanted to modify them and 
could not ? 

BTW, my printer has been clog free since I switched from the MIS-FSN 
to the UT inkset. I get perfect nozzle checks more than than 9 times 
out of 10. And I dont use the printer every day.

May I take this opportunity to thank you Paul for all that you've 
done for b&w digital printing. Your generosity is certainly 
appreaciated.
Cheers,
Andre

Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Clayton Jones

Thanks to all the contributors in this thread for an intelligent and
mature discussion of these issues without descending into emotional
responses, name calling and flames.  It has been a very informative
and refreshing thread.  These are indeed exciting times, and more to
come.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Jeff Magidson

On Friday, December 12, 2003, at 10:34 AM, sceptre12345 wrote:

  BTW, my printer has been clog free since I switched from the MIS-FSN
> to the UT inkset. I get perfect nozzle checks more than than 9 times
> out of 10. And I dont use the printer every day.
>
> May I take this opportunity to thank you Paul for all that you've
> done for b&w digital printing. Your generosity is certainly
> appreaciated.
> Cheers,
> Andre
>

I want to second this. I have used MANY inksets ( Cone, MIS FS, VM ) 
and have always had some clogging problems with each of them. Some more 
much worse than others. The MIS UT inks are by far the most clog free I 
have ever used. Just as good as the Epson OEM inks or better in terms 
of clogs. Much less ink and time wasted on repeated cleanings and 
nozzle checks :)

I also want to thank Paul for all he has contributed to the field!

-Jeff

Re: The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by scrber

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Magidson 
<jef.jef@v...> wrote:
> 
> On Friday, December 12, 2003, at 10:34 AM, sceptre12345 wrote:
> 
>   BTW, my printer has been clog free since I switched from the MIS-
FSN
> > to the UT inkset. I get perfect nozzle checks more than than 9 
times
> > out of 10. And I dont use the printer every day.
> >
> > May I take this opportunity to thank you Paul for all that you've
> > done for b&w digital printing. Your generosity is certainly
> > appreaciated.
> > Cheers,
> > Andre
> >
> 
> I want to second this. I have used MANY inksets ( Cone, MIS FS, 
VM ) 
> and have always had some clogging problems with each of them. Some 
more 
> much worse than others. The MIS UT inks are by far the most clog 
free I 
> have ever used. Just as good as the Epson OEM inks or better in 
terms 
> of clogs. Much less ink and time wasted on repeated cleanings and 
> nozzle checks :)
> 
> I also want to thank Paul for all he has contributed to the field!
> 
> -Jeff


Agreed, my UTs are absolutely great for not clogging - but 
Eboni.....shudder.....No way.  I had no luck
GEN4 for me at the moment.  I will try again with my next UT2 set 
when they appear.

I think Paul comments on the curves were not that people couldn't 
load / use the curves.  Just that for different papers, different 
tones etc, they are not tunable / tweakable for most of us. 
I would call myself an intermediate user and I completely struggled 
to tune out the steps / smoothness with 'unprofiled' papers.
I for one would welcome the slider approach....

Steve.

RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Paul Roark

Carl,

>How are you mounting and framing your RC prints for display without 
>glazing?

I'm not sure yet.  My inclination is dry mount of foam core.  There are some
new cold, acid-free methods that I'd like to look into, however.

This is still at the experimental stage.  I just picked up some samples of
Epson Semi-matte that people seem to like so well.  I hope to try that paper
today.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_________________________________________

On Friday, December 12, 2003, at 01:44  AM, Paul Roark wrote:

snip...

> After spraying, the RC papers are so tough that I'm not going to use
> glazing.  Then the out-gassing is irrelevant.



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RE: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Paul Roark

Keith,


>>Well, the RGB curves turned out to be too difficult for most.  That is why
>>my current effort has been directed at making things easier. 
>

>Are you saying the new UT-2 set on the 1280 doesn't use curves?

For the middle tones -- neutral through medium warm -- the inkset can print
from grayscale files, from any application, and the tones are selected by
manipulating the driver sliders.  For the more extreme tones -- carbon and
sepia -- RGB conversion and curves are needed.

>Are you saying you didn't create 1280 curves for the different settings 
>on your new page?

The top 2 images were with sliders, the bottom 2 with curves.  (That was the
light sepia curve; there is a stronger sepia curve too.)  
See http://home1.gte.net/res0a2zt/V-tone.html 

UT-2 is for both novices and power users.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Paul Roark

Andre,

>> Well, the RGB curves turned out to be too difficult for most.  

>I fail to comprehend how this could be. Applying an rgb adjustment 
>printing curve is not only easy it's just plain simple.

For you and I, and perhaps most of posters on this forum, but MIS and I get
a lot of contacts from frustrated and confused novices.  UT-2 has lots of
purposes -- one is clearly to lower the support costs that are mounting.

Also, there is the problem of printers and papers not being uniform.  I
suspect most of the people on this list just use the stock, pre-made curves.
When they have a flat spot, they just get frustrated.  

I want to get rid of as many of those flat spots as possible (and the Epson
driver with UT-2 and no curves does this), and I want to make the curves
much easier to modify.  

I have an RGB neutral curve for the UT-2 inkset that has the sepia toner
essentially turned off.  The main raw carbon (now magenta) and cool ink (now
cyan and not a light toner) curves then each have only 3 points in them.  No
more roller-coasters.  (Well turning the toner off takes a very steep curve,
but that can be left alone if one wants to modify the neutral curve for a
new paper.)

I don't want to oversell the UT-2.  Everything is a compromise, but I think
the compromises in this inkset make it a very versatile one that both
novices and many power users will appreciate.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by bgs

Paul,

The thank you parade continues....thanks! Would you recommend when I finally
run out of  my VM CFS inks (1160) to do UT or UT-2? I haven't had any
problems using the RGB curves.

Thank you again,

Barry S....bgs




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RE: [Digital BW] Re: The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Paul Roark

Barry,

> Would you recommend when I finally run out of my VM CFS inks 
>(1160) to do UT or UT-2? 

The UT-2 will not work with 4-ink printers.  

The 1160 should stick with the UT (1) inkset. 

>I haven't had any problems using the RGB curves.

Great. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: The Holy Grail?

2003-12-12 by Mitch Alland

For: Paul Roark

>  Easy-to-make prints with a higher dynamic range than the silver print 
> are hard to resist.

Which method are you referring to? Can Ultrachrome inks (Photo Black 
with, say, Semi-Matte) give a longer tonal range than a silver print -- 
and equal the Dmax?

--Mitch/Bangkok

Re: Was The Holy Grail? Now New Dry Mount Method?

2003-12-13 by Tom Husband

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Carl,
> 
> >How are you mounting and framing your RC prints for display 
without 
> >glazing?
> 
> I'm not sure yet.  My inclination is dry mount of foam core.  There 
are some
> new cold, acid-free methods that I'd like to look into...(snip)


Paul, can you point me to some information on these new dry mount 
methods?

Thanks,

Tom Husband

Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-13 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Paul Roark wrote:

>
>The top 2 images were with sliders, the bottom 2 with curves.  (That was the
>light sepia curve; there is a stronger sepia curve too.)  
>See http://home1.gte.net/res0a2zt/V-tone.html 
>
>UT-2 is for both novices and power users.
>
>  
>

YAY!!!!

Thank you! Thank YOU! THANK YOU Paul!!!

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Semi matte, PremierArt Print Shield & The Holy Grail

2003-12-13 by Paul Roark

Mitch,

>>  Easy-to-make prints with a higher dynamic range than the silver print 
>> are hard to resist.

>Which method are you referring to? Can Ultrachrome inks (Photo Black 
>with, say, Semi-Matte) give a longer tonal range than a silver print -- 
>and equal the Dmax?

I think that with the right barrier-type paper, perhaps Epson Premium
Semi-matte (or other paper that Wilhelm has "blessed"), the dynamic range
can exceed the silver prints I was doing.

I just printed my first Semi-matte (UT-2 with MIS Photo K in a 1280) and
sprayed it with PremierArt Print Shield.  The dmax is 2.12.  Not as good as
the Premium Luster (2.23) but, due to a better surface, the semi-matte looks
better.  (My silver prints usually, in actual printing with images, hit
1.9.)

UltraChrome Photo K is about like MIS Photo K.  

Semi-matte has some bronzing with the Ultra Tone inks and Photo K when
un-sprayed.  However, the spray takes care of 95% of it.  Both the bronze
color and the differential gloss are virtually gone.

I did one pass of spray first and noticed what looked like beading on the
100% black patch.  After 3 passes, at normal viewing distance the "beading"
or un-even coating was virtually gone, but very close to the print I still
saw some surface texture beading that I thought detracted from the otherwise
smooth black tone.  At 5 passes it's very smooth and nice.

While the sprayed semi-matte dmax is slightly better than my silver-prints,
the paper white of the semi-matte looks much white than the un-bleached
silver-print highlights.  So, the dynamic range of the semi-matte is better.

The air-dried, glossy silver-print "look" is slightly less smooth.  There
seems to be some, perhaps, fiber paper texture that shows on the fiber
print, whereas the semi-matte is almost too perfect in its smoothness.
Other than that the surfaces and reflections look very similar.  The
semi-matte reflection of a light is just slightly less diffuse than the
air-dried silver print.  

I might add that the Premium Luster reflection has more bronzing and a
reflection/surface texture that reminds me as related to the beads on a
glass-bead projection screen.  The Premium Luster reflections are more
diffuse -- too much so, in my view.  I think the semi-matte is better.

Epson Premium Semi-matte is clearly a contender warranting more experiments.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Semi matte, PremierArt Print Shield & The Holy Grail

2003-12-13 by hogarth

On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 21:20, Paul Roark wrote:

> Mitch,
> 
> >>  Easy-to-make prints with a higher dynamic range than the silver print 
> >> are hard to resist.
> 
> >Which method are you referring to? Can Ultrachrome inks (Photo Black 
> >with, say, Semi-Matte) give a longer tonal range than a silver print -- 
> >and equal the Dmax?
> 
> I think that with the right barrier-type paper, perhaps Epson Premium
> Semi-matte (or other paper that Wilhelm has "blessed"), the dynamic range
> can exceed the silver prints I was doing.
> 


Why does it have to be a "barrier-type" paper? I don't understand how
the paper substrate effects Dmax. How does that work?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by D. Hill

Everyone,

I've just spent the evening printing two 6x9 prints of
the same image for a list member - one via piezography
driver and one via Black Only.  

As it has been a while since I have printed actual
side by side comparisons of images created with
differing workflows, I was interested to see the
results as I have been doing this for a while now.  

The first image was printed via the  piezography/R9
driver with eboni in the black position.  The results
were as good as many of us have come to expect from
this software - it was a nice smooth image with
excellent quality.  But, it was terribly slow, yada
yada...

The second print using Eboni black only truly suprised
me.  Before today I had never realized that you can
print at 2880 dpi with the 1280 in black only mode (I
have always used the default heavyweight matte setting
that only allows a 1440 setting).  So, I just switched
the paper setting to "photo paper" and was allowed to
choose the 2880 dpi setting.  The added resolution
completely smoothed out the ramp.  Sure the 5% still
looks "dotty" but the warm tone of the Eboni combined
with the luminosity of BO was quite remarkable, and I
really don't care much about the dots - besides this
has a rich photogravure feel that is just amazing.

This may be old news, but I am just tickled at the
quality that can be achieved by "returning to the
basics."

When showing the images to an "uninformed" viewer,
they picked the BO as superior - and never mentioned
the dots.  So, when I look back on the hundreds of
dollars spent in specialized software and expensive
inks getting me here...

Don

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Re[2]: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by Richard Sintchak

Friday, December 12, 2003, 9:22:43 PM, you wrote:

DH> Everyone,

DH> I've just spent the evening printing two 6x9 prints of
DH> the same image for a list member - one via piezography
DH> driver and one via Black Only.  

DH> As it has been a while since I have printed actual
DH> side by side comparisons of images created with
DH> differing workflows, I was interested to see the
DH> results as I have been doing this for a while now.  

DH> The first image was printed via the  piezography/R9
DH> driver with eboni in the black position.  The results
DH> were as good as many of us have come to expect from
DH> this software - it was a nice smooth image with
DH> excellent quality.  But, it was terribly slow, yada
DH> yada...

DH> The second print using Eboni black only truly suprised
DH> me.  Before today I had never realized that you can
DH> print at 2880 dpi with the 1280 in black only mode (I
DH> have always used the default heavyweight matte setting
DH> that only allows a 1440 setting).  So, I just switched
DH> the paper setting to "photo paper" and was allowed to
DH> choose the 2880 dpi setting.  The added resolution
DH> completely smoothed out the ramp.  Sure the 5% still
DH> looks "dotty" but the warm tone of the Eboni combined
DH> with the luminosity of BO was quite remarkable, and I
DH> really don't care much about the dots - besides this
DH> has a rich photogravure feel that is just amazing.

DH> This may be old news, but I am just tickled at the
DH> quality that can be achieved by "returning to the
DH> basics."

DH> When showing the images to an "uninformed" viewer,
DH> they picked the BO as superior - and never mentioned
DH> the dots.  So, when I look back on the hundreds of
DH> dollars spent in specialized software and expensive
DH> inks getting me here...

DH> Don

Don,

I studied all the workflows here and elsewhere for about a year and
then got myself an 1160 and MIS FS-N inks and a CIS.  Using Randall
cureves I got myself some very nice prints.  Occasionally a bit of
banding and sometimes it seemed some inconsistency with the richness
of the black, but overall very nice.  I did later have some issues in
that the FS-N warmed up a bit much especially from where it started
but that was another issue.  I then started trying BO using Clayton
Jone's suggestions.  And now I've doing it with Eboni carts.  I too
share you enthusiasm and am in awe at the comparisons to my earlier
1160 prints.  I post a few proofs at work of my street photography and
people at work are much more inclined towards the BO prints compared
to my 1160 prints.  Dots?  Yeah, they are there if you want to look
for them.

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Was The Holy Grail? Now New Dry Mount Method?

2003-12-13 by Paul Roark

Tom,

I was told Aaron Brothers has some system they're selling for non-hot press
dry mounting.  Also, Light Impressions has some adhesives.

Since I have a press, I think I'll just try regular Color Mount with these
papers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
___________________________


Tom Husband [mailto:thusband@...] 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 4:12 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Was The Holy Grail? Now New Dry Mount Method?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Carl,
> 
> >How are you mounting and framing your RC prints for display 
without 
> >glazing?
> 
> I'm not sure yet.  My inclination is dry mount of foam core.  There 
are some
> new cold, acid-free methods that I'd like to look into...(snip)


Paul, can you point me to some information on these new dry mount 
methods?

Thanks,

Tom Husband



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Re: [Digital BW] Semi matte, PremierArt Print Shield & The Holy Grail

2003-12-13 by Bob Frost

Paul,

What is the difference between Premium semi-matte and Premium semi-gloss? I
can only get semi-gloss in the UK.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>

Epson Premium Semi-matte is clearly a contender warranting more experiments.

Re: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by Clayton Jones

Hello Don,

>The second print using Eboni black only truly suprised me
>...the warm tone of the Eboni combined with the luminosity 
>of BO was quite remarkable
>...has a rich photogravure feel
>...I am just tickled at the quality that can be achieved by
>"returning to the basics."

For me the luminance of BO prints is it's most important quality.
Even when I was printing at 1440 with an 870 the luminosity of the
prints outweighed the graininess for me, and I grew to like the "Tri-X
look" of the prints.  When I switched to 2880 on the 2200 I was
extremely pleased at the improvement.  It's still a tiny bit grainy if
you look for it, and most important, hasn't lost the crisp
sharp-edged quality that gives it that classic Tri-X/HC-110 look.  

BTW, someone else here pointed out that the 1280 is 2880x720, while
the 2200 is 2880x1440, so I think the 2200 prints may look even a bit
better.  I had seen a 1280/2880 print, and what I saw with the 2200
was beyond my expectations.

The Eboni ink is gorgeous, very rich.  Next to a perfectly neutral
print it looks slightly warm, but by itself looks neutral.  The
combination of Eboni color with BO luminance and hi-res smoothness is
a match made in heaven.  These prints really pop!  And finally, stable
prints that won't fade.  Bliss.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by Don

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> The Eboni ink is gorgeous, very rich.  Next to a perfectly neutral
> print it looks slightly warm, but by itself looks neutral.  The
> combination of Eboni color with BO luminance and hi-res smoothness 
is
> a match made in heaven.  These prints really pop!  And finally, 
stable
> prints that won't fade.  Bliss.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
Clayton,

I've been loving the BO process on my 2200.  I've been using EEM and 
Radiant Watercolor (Epson) papers. I have recently ordered an Eboni 
cartridge and wondered what kinds of paper you have been using for 
your best results? Would like to hear about this from any other 
folks into BO printing also. Thanks.

Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

Re: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by Carl Schofield

The Eboni BO will give a slightly warm tone on EEM and Photorag, but if 
you prefer a neutral/cool tone then try one of the cotton rag papers 
with optical brightners, such as Brightcube Eclipse Satine BW (if 
available), Piezotone Museum Bright white, Entrada Fine Art (BW), or 
Premier Premium Matte.

Carl Schofield
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 11:27  AM, Don wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
> <cj@c...> wrote:
>> The Eboni ink is gorgeous, very rich.  Next to a perfectly neutral
>> print it looks slightly warm, but by itself looks neutral.  The
>> combination of Eboni color with BO luminance and hi-res smoothness
> is
>> a match made in heaven.  These prints really pop!  And finally,
> stable
>> prints that won't fade.  Bliss.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Clayton
>>
> Clayton,
>
> I've been loving the BO process on my 2200.  I've been using EEM and
> Radiant Watercolor (Epson) papers. I have recently ordered an Eboni
> cartridge and wondered what kinds of paper you have been using for
> your best results? Would like to hear about this from any other
> folks into BO printing also. Thanks.
>
> Ol' Don in Broken Arrow
>
>

Re[2]: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by Richard Sintchak

Saturday, December 13, 2003, 8:27:30 AM, you wrote:

D> Clayton,

D> I've been loving the BO process on my 2200.  I've been using EEM and
D> Radiant Watercolor (Epson) papers. I have recently ordered an Eboni
D> cartridge and wondered what kinds of paper you have been using for 
D> your best results? Would like to hear about this from any other 
D> folks into BO printing also. Thanks.

D> Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

Clayton and I have been talking on the phone a bit lately about the BO
process (and I purchased his ol' 870 too) and he and I have been
talking of using the Epson EEM for proofing and the Photo Rag for
final and sale prints. I've been trying out a few other "fine art"
papers for BO printing on my 2200 such as the Archives Infinity and
Entrada Fine Art but both of those have mottling in the darkest black
areas---and I'm at a loss as to how to prevent that. I have tried
adjusting curves and paper type settings but nothing seems to work.
Anyway, I simply love the darker blacks, sharpness and gorgeous shadow
detail of the BO 2200 prints on the PR so I'm sticking to that for now.

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

Re[2]: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by Richard Sintchak

Saturday, December 13, 2003, 8:55:30 AM, you wrote:

CS> The Eboni BO will give a slightly warm tone on EEM and Photorag, but if
CS> you prefer a neutral/cool tone then try one of the cotton rag papers
CS> with optical brightners, such as Brightcube Eclipse Satine BW (if 
CS> available), Piezotone Museum Bright white, Entrada Fine Art (BW), or
CS> Premier Premium Matte.

CS> Carl Schofield

And let me add to Carl's list the Legion Photo Matte, which while not
a cotton paper supposedly is a type of wood pulp that will not have
have "issues". It's probably the coolest of the Matte papers out
there.

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

Re: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
...
> For me the luminance of BO prints is it's most important quality.
> Even when I was printing at 1440 with an 870 the luminosity of the
> prints outweighed the graininess for me, and I grew to like the "Tri-X
> look" of the prints.  When I switched to 2880 on the 2200 I was
> extremely pleased at the improvement.  It's still a tiny bit grainy if
> you look for it, and most important, hasn't lost the crisp
> sharp-edged quality that gives it that classic Tri-X/HC-110 look.

I recall back when Nicholas Hartmann was first trying different ways
of printing to maintain proper grain structure in his inkjet prints.
He found the various quad methods inadequate and decided BO printing
was his best solution.
I recently had a small private show of quads here, originals ranging
from 35mm to 8x10 drum scans, several supplied Imacon scans, and
digicam files. The grain description was great. One photographer
walked up to a print he had never seen before and said, "that's 35mm
TriX, I'd know it anywhere", and he was correct. Perhaps the large
size of the prints helped, perhaps things have improved since Nicholas
Hartmann's tests, but I just thought I'd pass that on. I found proper
scanning and sharpening techniques were vital, and varied with image.
I don't mean to imply BO printing is not good or viable, and everyone
should use whatever procedures necessary to make personaly satifying
prints, but for those who are primarily concerned with grain
representation, perhaps things have improved and openned up a bit.
Tyler

RE: [Digital BW] Semi matte, PremierArt Print Shield & The Holy Grail

2003-12-13 by Paul Roark

Bob,

>What is the difference between Premium semi-matte and Premium semi-gloss? I
>can only get semi-gloss in the UK.

Visually, the semi-gloss actually has a bit more texture after it's sprayed.
I prefer its look (and higher dmax -- 2.39).

I notice in the Epson descriptions of the papers that semi-matte can take
lamination -- hot and cold -- whereas semi-gloss does not list that as a
feature.

The sizes that are available in the U.S. indicate that semi-matte is aimed
at pros, whereas the semi-gloss is aimed at consumers.  The lamination
compatibility may be the reason.  In the U.S., large rolls and sizes of
semi-gloss beyond 13" wide are not available.  And the literature on the
Epson 4000 indicate that semi-matte will be available in 17x22 sheets and
16" rolls, but semi-gloss will not be.  On the other hand, I notice 24" and
larger rolls are available outside the U.S. (some of these are not the "250"
weight, however).

In Wilhelm tests, the semi-gloss does 50% or more better in all the fade
measures.  (Dark storage is >200 years for both.)  It may be that the
surface characteristics that aid lamination make the pigments more exposed.
If it's a matter of how well the surface protects the pigment, this
difference might disappear after spraying, but the marketing disadvantage
will not disappear.  I'll probably run some comparative fade tests of
sprayed samples.  

I'll also try dry-mounting both papers to see if they can both take the head
of the press.

Right now, however, I will opt for the semi-gloss if I can find a reasonable
way to get the large sizes in the U.S.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_______________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>

Epson Premium Semi-matte is clearly a contender warranting more experiments.



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Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-13 by Olaf Ringdahl

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "J Vee" <j.vee@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?


I am a long time traditional \ufffdCarbon\ufffd Printer.  I shoot 4X5 or 11X14, drum
scan, Photoshop, print a 20\ufffd X 24\ufffd glossy on Colorspan 11 color printer,
mount on vacuum frame and shoot an 11\ufffd by 14\ufffd neg with a hoiz process camera
on rails.  Finest result you can imagine when this neg is used for the
contact printing with the traditional process.  J Vee




J Vee

Apparently you are accomplishing exactly what I want to accomplish by means
similar to mine - by making an oversize inkjet print, then making a large
format copy negative, then using that to make the final silver print. My
problem with this method is that in the final print, when the shadows and
midtones are right, the highlights are severely flattened. This problem
could be corrected by using Kodak Professional Copy Film 4125 which has
increased highlight contrast but it has been discontinued. T-Max 100, Kodak'
s recommendation as a substitute, does not have this increased highlight
contrast. Could you tell us what film, developer and procedure you use to
make copy negatives that do not have flattened highlights?

Olaf Ringdahl

Re: [Digital BW] barrier-paper Dmax, (was: Semi matte, PremierArt Print Shield...)

2003-12-13 by hogarth

On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 22:11, hogarth wrote:

> On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 21:20, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> > Mitch,
> > 
> > >>  Easy-to-make prints with a higher dynamic range than the silver print 
> > >> are hard to resist.
> > 
> > >Which method are you referring to? Can Ultrachrome inks (Photo Black 
> > >with, say, Semi-Matte) give a longer tonal range than a silver print -- 
> > >and equal the Dmax?
> > 
> > I think that with the right barrier-type paper, perhaps Epson Premium
> > Semi-matte (or other paper that Wilhelm has "blessed"), the dynamic range
> > can exceed the silver prints I was doing.
> > 
> 
> 
> Why does it have to be a "barrier-type" paper? I don't understand how
> the paper substrate effects Dmax. How does that work?
> 


Paul? Anyone? How does a barrier-type paper effect Dmax?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by Clayton Jones

Hello Tyler,

>...things have improved and openned up a bit.

Excellent point.  Over the past year every aspect of this has improved
enormously - inks, printers, papers, software, knowledge - and the new
developments continue.  I think everyone would benefit from a complete
re-evaluation all their concepts, ideas and notions about digi BW
printing.  It's a whole new ball game and we're only in the 2nd
inning.


>for those who are primarily concerned with grain representation...

For the record, that is not the reason I got into, or still do, BO
printing.  I first tried it in desperation after months of struggle
with various curves approaches using MIS inks.  It was a lifeboat
which saved me from giving up in frustration.  In the beginning had a
lot of inner conflict about the dots, but after some months passed and
I began seeing more prints made with other methods, I began to realize
that, in spite of the dots and graininess, I preferred the look of the
BO prints (for all the reasons people usually recite: intense Dmax,
luminance, sharpness), and also came to appreciate it's ease of use
and low cost.  Gradually the fact that dots could be seen became less
and less a factor in my thinking (many people who know nothing about
this have viewed my prints, including good darkroom practitioners, and
never once has anyone commented on the dots, even when examining small
4x5's up close).  So it has become almost a non-issue.  The fact that
BO prints resemble the look of Tri-X is an additional plus for me
because I happen to love that look (it may not be a plus for a
Tmax-100 user <g>).

To the best of my recollection, of all the things I've read about BO
printing, in this forum and elsewhere, Nicholas is the only one who
has actually stated that a desire for grain representation was his
reason for doing it.


>One photographer walked up to a print he had never seen before 
>and said, "that's 35mm TriX, I'd know it anywhere", 

Isn't it great when something like that happens.  You know you're
communicating on some level with another person who understands.


>I found proper scanning and sharpening techniques were vital, and
>varied with image.

I keep learning more and more what a huge difference this can make. 
I'm experimenting now with Qimage.  It has made a significant
difference on some prints and none on others.  I'm still trying to
understand why.  My problem is not enough time to fully devote to it.
 I just have crevices of time out of my normal earning a living
activities.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-13 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
...
> >for those who are primarily concerned with grain representation...
> 
> For the record, that is not the reason I got into, or still do, BO
> printing.

Clayton, I should be more adamant to point out that if it works for
you for whatever reason, proceed with all possible enthusiasm.

> I keep learning more and more what a huge difference this can make. 
> I'm experimenting now with Qimage.

I've seen posts from very experienced Epson/Windows people that it's
great, Ernst being one of them. Sounds like you are experimenting in a
good direction.
Tyler

RE: [Digital BW] barrier-paper Dmax, (was: Semi matte, PremierArtPrint Shield...)

2003-12-13 by Paul Roark

I'm not sure why the "barrier-paper" (RC) prints get a higher dmax but with
a "Photo K" that is less dense on matte paper.  The surfaces of these glossy
papers are just a different animal.  Perhaps it's the inherent smoothness --
or lack there of -- that allows a different coating type or the
characteristics that give rise to these differences. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
__________________________
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-----Original Message-----
From: hogarth [mailto:hogarth@...] 
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:51 AM
To: digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] barrier-paper Dmax, (was: Semi matte,
PremierArtPrint Shield...)

On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 22:11, hogarth wrote:

> On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 21:20, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> > Mitch,
> > 
> > >>  Easy-to-make prints with a higher dynamic range than the silver
print 
> > >> are hard to resist.
> > 
> > >Which method are you referring to? Can Ultrachrome inks (Photo Black 
> > >with, say, Semi-Matte) give a longer tonal range than a silver print --

> > >and equal the Dmax?
> > 
> > I think that with the right barrier-type paper, perhaps Epson Premium
> > Semi-matte (or other paper that Wilhelm has "blessed"), the dynamic
range
> > can exceed the silver prints I was doing.
> > 
> 
> 
> Why does it have to be a "barrier-type" paper? I don't understand how
> the paper substrate effects Dmax. How does that work?
> 


Paul? Anyone? How does a barrier-type paper effect Dmax?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [Digital BW] Semi matte, PremierArt Print Shield & The Holy Grail

2003-12-13 by Steve Kale

Bob  

I don¹t recall what printer you are using but I just noticed that Epson
Premium Semi-Matt is available from Epson UK.  It appears that it is only
available for the large format printers and in roll form.

http://www.buyepson.co.uk/category.asp?mainunit=C11C472001&category_name=Ink
jet+media&dept=Consumables

Regards

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@verizon.net>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:51:47 -0800
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Semi matte, PremierArt Print Shield & The Holy
Grail

Bob,

>What is the difference between Premium semi-matte and Premium semi-gloss? I
>can only get semi-gloss in the UK.

Visually, the semi-gloss actually has a bit more texture after it's sprayed.
I prefer its look (and higher dmax -- 2.39).

I notice in the Epson descriptions of the papers that semi-matte can take
lamination -- hot and cold -- whereas semi-gloss does not list that as a
feature.

The sizes that are available in the U.S. indicate that semi-matte is aimed
at pros, whereas the semi-gloss is aimed at consumers.  The lamination
compatibility may be the reason.  In the U.S., large rolls and sizes of
semi-gloss beyond 13" wide are not available.  And the literature on the
Epson 4000 indicate that semi-matte will be available in 17x22 sheets and
16" rolls, but semi-gloss will not be.  On the other hand, I notice 24" and
larger rolls are available outside the U.S. (some of these are not the "250"
weight, however).

In Wilhelm tests, the semi-gloss does 50% or more better in all the fade
measures.  (Dark storage is >200 years for both.)  It may be that the
surface characteristics that aid lamination make the pigments more exposed.
If it's a matter of how well the surface protects the pigment, this
difference might disappear after spraying, but the marketing disadvantage
will not disappear.  I'll probably run some comparative fade tests of
sprayed samples.  

I'll also try dry-mounting both papers to see if they can both take the head
of the press.

Right now, however, I will opt for the semi-gloss if I can find a reasonable
way to get the large sizes in the U.S.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_______________________________________




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] barrier-paper Dmax, (was: Semi matte, PremierArtPrint Shield...)

2003-12-14 by Martin Wesley

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hogarth [mailto:hogarth@...] 
> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:51 AM
> To: digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] barrier-paper Dmax, (was: Semi 
> matte, PremierArtPrint Shield...)
> 
> Paul? Anyone? How does a barrier-type paper effect Dmax?
> 
Hogarth,

RC or barrier papers simply provide a smoother surface to print on. The
smoother or glosser the surface the greater the Dmax will be. Reflective
density is measured by shining a light of known strength on a surface and
then measuring what percentage of the light is reflected. The angle of
incidence between the light striking the paper and the light reflected from
the paper is 2 or 4 degrees. Very close to what you see if you look straight
at the paper.

Matte surfaces scatter the light being reflected from their surface
resulting a greater amount of light returning to your eye and lowering the
Dmax. Glossy surfaces have little scatter to adversely effect Dmax.

You can really see this by applying a glossy coating to an inkjet print on
matte paper. Prior to coating the Dmax will be in the 1.6 to 1.7 range and
after coating it moves up into the 1.9 - 2.1 range without any other change
taking place accept a smoothing of the reflecting surface.

Density differences become harder and harder to see as you go above 2.0.
Keep in mind that a density of 2.0 means that 1.00% of the light falling on
the surface is reflected. At a density of 2.1 the reflectance is 0.79% a
very small change. At density 2.2 reflectance is 0.63% an even smaller
change.

So as density increases the increase in visible "darkness" becomes less and
less. I can personally distinguish between a densities of 2.0 and 2.1 but
from 2.1 up my eyes are not up to seeing the change. Dmax values above 2.1
seem to have little or no practical value.

On matte papers with carbon pigment inks the best Dmax values seem to be in
the 1.6 to 1.7 range. This would be a reflectance of 2.51% to 2.00%.
Differences in this density range are easily seen.

Martin Wesley
www.carolynfrayn.com/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Re: [Digital BW] 1280 Surprise with Eboni & Black Only

2003-12-14 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Something's funny here..

The max vertical resolution on the 1270 and 1280 is the same 720 dpi.  
The minimum droplet size is the same at 4 picoliters.

Yes, there have been arguments about whether people can see the 
difference between normal printing at 1440 and 2880 dpi horizontal.. 
Certainly, there is a difference between 720 and 1440 dpi horizontally...

However, with BO, I'm wondering whether the differences people see are 
more driver induced than actually a direct effect of the increased 
resolution..  Differences in performance of the 1270 hardware when run 
with the 1280 driver  would seem to indicate the latter.  Oh well. Just 
more grist for the mental mill.




 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-14 by Mike Finley

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:11:28 -0800, you wrote:

>Ken,
>
>I also use the 2200 (with photo black ink) and the Pictorico white film
>material to make digital negatives.
>As I said before, the results are pretty amazing!
>
>The process I use is not all that different than what Dan Burkholder has
>written about in the inkjet companion to his book that you mentioned in your
>post and I would strongly recommend getting it for anyone who wants to try
>this. It only costs $15.00 to download and is well worth the money! It's a
>hell of a lot cheeper than buying a $490.00 RIP.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>David R. Spielman
>
However, the download mechanism does not seem to be reliable. I've
paid for it, attempted to download it, and repeatedly got error
messages saying that the site was unavailable or could not be found.
Despite that, it has reduced my 'available download count to zero,
despite returning absolutely nothing.
I've emailed Dan, via the shop email, and await a response.

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-14 by Ken Schuster

Carl - For half the price of the PremierArt Print Shield, I had equal
success with Prismacolor Tuffilm Final Fixative Gloss, Grumbacher
Tuffilm Final Fixative Matte and Blair Very Low Odor Spray Fix
Workable Matte. They all looked the same on watercolor-type
paper, and eliminated "bronzing" on Epson Premier Semi-Gloss with
Photo Black ink. However, among the four, only Print Shield claims
UV protection.

Schuster
________________________________________________________________

Never respond to spam, even to "unsubscribe."
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Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Carl Schofield
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RC Papers, Print Spray and Bronzing: what am I looking
for?


I've used both the UC and UT inks in a 2200 and both inksets seem to
exhibit about the same level of bronzing on most RC papers I've used.
The only spray treatment I've tried so far has been Kamar Varnish,
which does reduce the bronzing, but I didn't like the appearance of the
surface after spraying.  I'm going to try the epson semi-gloss and
PremierArt spray next week with the UC inks and also see what it does
for BO printing on RC papers.  I tried printing just Eboni on some
PermaJet Oyster 271 (a semi-matte RC) and had some promising results
after spraying with Kamar.  The dmax went from about 1.51 before
spraying to 2.17 after spraying with beautiful blacks and a dead
neutral tonal scale.  Eboni is of course not designed for use with RC
papers and it will rub off easily without treatment, but after the
Kamar spray the surface is very durable.  Problem is that it is very
difficult (at least for me) to get an even coating with the Kamar and
it is gritty if you don't put enough coats on.

Carl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Sprayed RC paper

2003-12-14 by Carl Schofield

On Sunday, December 14, 2003, at 12:13  PM, Ken Schuster wrote:

> Carl - For half the price of the PremierArt Print Shield, I had equal
> success with Prismacolor Tuffilm Final Fixative Gloss, Grumbacher
> Tuffilm Final Fixative Matte and Blair Very Low Odor Spray Fix
> Workable Matte. They all looked the same on watercolor-type
> paper, and eliminated "bronzing" on Epson Premier Semi-Gloss with
> Photo Black ink. However, among the four, only Print Shield claims
> UV protection.
>
> Schuster

Ken - Thanks for the tips on the alternative spray coatings.

Carl

Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-14 by Mike Finley

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 16:43:36 +0000, you wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:11:28 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Ken,
>>
>>I also use the 2200 (with photo black ink) and the Pictorico white film
>>material to make digital negatives.
>>As I said before, the results are pretty amazing!
>>
>>The process I use is not all that different than what Dan Burkholder has
>>written about in the inkjet companion to his book that you mentioned in your
>>post and I would strongly recommend getting it for anyone who wants to try
>>this. It only costs $15.00 to download and is well worth the money! It's a
>>hell of a lot cheeper than buying a $490.00 RIP.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>David R. Spielman
>>
>However, the download mechanism does not seem to be reliable. I've
>paid for it, attempted to download it, and repeatedly got error
>messages saying that the site was unavailable or could not be found.
>Despite that, it has reduced my 'available download count to zero,
>despite returning absolutely nothing.
>I've emailed Dan, via the shop email, and await a response.
>

Seems the PC download occasionally fails, but is rapidly addressed by
the Burkholders. (Impressively so, given its Sunday today!)

Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?

2003-12-16 by J Vee

On 12/13/03 10:43 AM, "Olaf Ringdahl" <o.ringdahl@...> wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J Vee" <j.vee@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 7:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The Holy Grail?
> 
> 
> I am a long time traditional ³Carbon² Printer.  I shoot 4X5 or 11X14, drum
> scan, Photoshop, print a 20² X 24² glossy on Colorspan 11 color printer,
> mount on vacuum frame and shoot an 11² by 14² neg with a hoiz process camera
> on rails.  Finest result you can imagine when this neg is used for the
> contact printing with the traditional process.  J Vee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J Vee
> 
> Apparently you are accomplishing exactly what I want to accomplish by means
> similar to mine - by making an oversize inkjet print, then making a large
> format copy negative, then using that to make the final silver print. My
> problem with this method is that in the final print, when the shadows and
> midtones are right, the highlights are severely flattened. This problem
> could be corrected by using Kodak Professional Copy Film 4125 which has
> increased highlight contrast but it has been discontinued. T-Max 100, Kodak'
> s recommendation as a substitute, does not have this increased highlight
> contrast. Could you tell us what film, developer and procedure you use to
> make copy negatives that do not have flattened highlights?
> 
> Olaf Ringdahl
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>  
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> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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> 
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> 
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> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
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> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

I have a huge supply of the copy film, purchased because of the planned
discontinue.  J Vee
-- 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Holy Grail?

2003-12-17 by Olaf Ringdahl

About the inkjet print/copy negative/silver print method:

J Vee wrote, "I . print a 20² X 24² glossy on Colorspan 11 color printer,
mount on vacuum frame and shoot an 11² by 14² neg. Finest result you can imagine when this neg is used for contact printing with the traditional process." 

I wrote, "My problem with this method is that in the final print, when the shadows and
midtones are right, the highlights are severely flattened. This problem
could be corrected by using Kodak Professional Copy Film 4125, which has increased highlight contrast, but it has been discontinued. Could you tell us what film, developer and procedure you use to make copy negatives that do not have flattened highlights?"

J Vee wrote, "I have a huge supply of the copy film, purchased because of the planned
discontinue."

I appreciate his response and congratulate him for his foresight but so far the problem remains unsolved.

Has anyone out there had success with the inkjet print/copy negative/silver print process, without using the discontinued Kodak 4125 film? If so I would very much like to know how you go about it. Anyone?

Olaf Ringdahl


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