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eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-30 by lipshurt2002

so after reading all of the stuff on the roark website, I decide to spring for a set of UT2 
inks for my epson 1280. I have been making nice prints using epson ink, Black only, on 
every kind of paper, fine art, smooth pearl, high gloss, you name it. I started to think that 
maybe they wont last, so I got the pigment UT2 set because ...supposedly......they are 
compatible with gloss and smooth gloss papers. Well, I have some ilford gallerie smooth 
gloss for pigment inks, and some ilford gallerie smooth pearl for pigment inks. What a 
disaster. The bronzing is extreme. SO extreme that anyone with any standards whatsoever 
would just laugh. On the smooth gloss, the inks just set on the top, and can be DUSTED of 
by the slightest wipe of a  handkerchief!......I mean totally erased. I'll bet the wind of 
rustling papers would blow the ink off the paper. Something, I assume is wrong here. I was 
usuing the "UT2-ilfordsmooth-eboni-carbon" curve, and following the rest of his 
directions. Aside from the obvious problems, I also was not knocked out by the print as far 
as smoothness and detail go. The Black only method has better transitions from dark to 
black in the shadows. The shadow detail was lacking pretty bad, and blotchy. If I am 
wasting my time trying to get this ink to print on a non-matte surface, please let me 
know. I recently went through this with lyson small gamuts, and gave up on them making 
a neutral print. Right now I'll try some more of the papers I have on hand....thanks in 
advance, Doug M

Re: eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Andre

From the Inksupply.com web site, where you bought your UT2 inkset:

 Eboni Black  	ARC-T007-UTK  	$22.08  	Eboni black for use on matte
paper and some glossy's.

Photo Black 	ARC-T007-UPK 	$22.08 	Photo black for use on gloss and
semi-gloss paper, not for matte papers

Which one of the black ink did you order for your UT2 inkset ? Eboni
Black or Photo Black ?

Cheers,
Andre

Re: [Digital BW] Re: eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Douglas Meeuwsen

I have the eboni black. On the roark website, he very clearly says that 
the eboni black works with glossy and semi glos papers with his curves. 
He actually has curves written specifically for eboni black, and ilford 
smooth pearl, and eboni with ilford smooth gloss. Nowhere on the site 
does it say that the smooth pearl will look like it has been sprinkled 
with glitter, and if you hold it just right right you can get a very 
cool "negative film effect" on the smooth gloss. Also, when using his 
neutral curve, the dot size is VERY much bigger than simply running 
black only with the regular epson ink. WHAT?........I really dont want 
to have to make all my prints on matte paper. Everytime I show them to 
someone they say something about how xerox has come a LONG way, 
etc.....Does the 2200 have the real truth-be-told ability to print an 
archival pearl finish print that does not glitter? if so, then it seems 
that the 1280 with pigment inks should be able to also. Any tips on a 
non-matte paper that works with these? I mean really actually works 
like the real epson inks?
On Jul 30, 2004, at 5:24 PM, Andre wrote:

> From the Inksupply.com web site, where you bought your UT2 inkset:
>
>  Eboni Black� ����� ARC-T007-UTK� ����� $22.08� ����� Eboni black for 
> use on matte
>  paper and some glossy's.
>
>  Photo Black ����� ARC-T007-UPK ����� $22.08 ����� Photo black for use 
> on gloss and
>  semi-gloss paper, not for matte papers
>
>  Which one of the black ink did you order for your UT2 inkset ? Eboni
>  Black or Photo Black ?
>
>  Cheers,
>  Andre
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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Re: eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by wolarsky

I'm printing very successfully with a 1280 using UT2-Eboni and 
Galerie Smooth Pearl. In fact, the increased dMax makes the Photo Rag 
prints seem a bit dull. I suspect that something is not correct in 
your settings because this combination does work.

By mistake, I tried printing on Classic Pearl and landed up with the 
results you described, although you seem to have the right paper.

Evan

Re: [Digital BW] Re: eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Douglas Meeuwsen

Really???? I just tried classic pearl, and there is no bronzing at all. 
None in any lighting. However....The ink just sits on the top and can 
be smeared off in a gooey mess. I am heartened by your results with 
smooth pearl though. Now, in the direct sun it's not too bad (smooth 
pearl), but in window light or incandecent, it's really bad, especially 
in the upper midtones. Also, the shadows are a totally diferent grain 
pattern with the neutral curve than the carbon curve. Grainy shadows, 
nice highlights. Weird. The carbon has smooth blotchy shadows, with no 
grain at all......I'll keep reading and double checking. thanks, Doug M
On Jul 30, 2004, at 6:02 PM, wolarsky wrote:

> I'm printing very successfully with a 1280 using UT2-Eboni and
>  Galerie Smooth Pearl. In fact, the increased dMax makes the Photo Rag
>  prints seem a bit dull. I suspect that something is not correct in
>  your settings because this combination does work.
>
>  By mistake, I tried printing on Classic Pearl and landed up with the
>  results you described, although you seem to have the right paper.
>
>  Evan
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
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> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
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> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Douglas Meeuwsen

What media setting are you using with smooth pearl to get good 
results?? I have pretty much tried allo them.......are you using roarks 
curves? Speaking of Dmax, these curves look pretty bad in the shadows, 
even on matte paper. I just printed some greyscale test strips, and it 
looks like the darkest block is black, then there is a drastic change 
for the next block. If I use the no-curves-just sliders method with 
matte paper, the greayscale strip is definitely  better. That may offer 
a clue to what is going on with my system. I am using a brand new 1280, 
mac osx panther, the newest driver from EPSON, working space = 
adobe1998, print space =same as source. I am using the curves from the 
website via the "image/adjustment/curves/load method.......is that 
correct?....thanks again and again, DM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 30, 2004, at 6:13 PM, Douglas Meeuwsen wrote:

> Really???? I just tried classic pearl, and there is no bronzing at all.
> None in any lighting. However....The ink just sits on the top and can
> be smeared off in a gooey mess. I am heartened by your results with
> smooth pearl though. Now, in the direct sun it's not too bad (smooth
> pearl), but in window light or incandecent, it's really bad, especially
> in the upper midtones. Also, the shadows are a totally diferent grain
> pattern with the neutral curve than the carbon curve. Grainy shadows,
> nice highlights. Weird. The carbon has smooth blotchy shadows, with no
> grain at all......I'll keep reading and double checking. thanks, Doug M
> On Jul 30, 2004, at 6:02 PM, wolarsky wrote:
>
>> I'm printing very successfully with a 1280 using UT2-Eboni and
>>  Galerie Smooth Pearl. In fact, the increased dMax makes the Photo Rag
>>  prints seem a bit dull. I suspect that something is not correct in
>>  your settings because this combination does work.
>>
>>  By mistake, I tried printing on Classic Pearl and landed up with the
>>  results you described, although you seem to have the right paper.
>>
>>  Evan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>> this same page.
>>
>>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
>> keep them short.
>>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
>> the membership without notice.
>>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>> removed from the membership.
>>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the
>> Files section:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>
>>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER”
>> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
>> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
>> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
>> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
>> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
>> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
>> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
>> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>
>> ADVERTISEMENT
>> <lrec_companion_043004.gif>
>> <l.gif>
>>
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>>
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>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>>  
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>>  
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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RE: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Paul Roark

Doug,

My UT2 information sheet states, in part:

"GLOSSY PAPERS - WITH EBONI BLACK INK 

...

Most of these papers have some reflective differentials or artifacts that
can be reduced significantly with a spray like PremierArt Image Shield or
Lyson Print Guard.  When sprayed, these papers have a surface that is
durable enough to be cleaned with a damp paper towel.

Curves are available for the following papers:

 ...

Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl & Glossy papers:

            (Use "Photo Quality Glossy Film" media type.)"



I think dye inks do have a visual advantage on most "glossy" surfaces.
Frankly, I don't like the supper glossy finishes on the microporous papers
at all.  However, I think most find the pearl or semi-gloss surfaces quite
pleasing -- when sprayed.  The spray is critical for all the papers expect
the older Epson Glossy Photo Paper and related coatings.

The large dots you saw may indicate that either the resolution should be
kicked up to 2880 or the paper type is wrong.  Flooding the paper is a
problem with Ilford.  Be sure to use the "Photo Quality Glossy Film"
setting.  If you still notice large looking dots at 2880 at about 75%, then
your particular printer may just be putting out too much ink for the paper.

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/ 

__________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: lipshurt2002 [mailto:lipshurt@...] 
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 1:34 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

so after reading all of the stuff on the roark website, I decide to spring
for a set of UT2 
inks for my epson 1280. I have been making nice prints using epson ink,
Black only, on 
every kind of paper, fine art, smooth pearl, high gloss, you name it. I
started to think that 
maybe they wont last, so I got the pigment UT2 set because
...supposedly......they are 
compatible with gloss and smooth gloss papers. Well, I have some ilford
gallerie smooth 
gloss for pigment inks, and some ilford gallerie smooth pearl for pigment
inks. What a 
disaster. The bronzing is extreme. SO extreme that anyone with any standards
whatsoever 
would just laugh. On the smooth gloss, the inks just set on the top, and can
be DUSTED of 
by the slightest wipe of a  handkerchief!......I mean totally erased. I'll
bet the wind of 
rustling papers would blow the ink off the paper. Something, I assume is
wrong here. I was 
usuing the "UT2-ilfordsmooth-eboni-carbon" curve, and following the rest of
his 
directions. Aside from the obvious problems, I also was not knocked out by
the print as far 
as smoothness and detail go. The Black only method has better transitions
from dark to 
black in the shadows. The shadow detail was lacking pretty bad, and blotchy.
If I am 
wasting my time trying to get this ink to print on a non-matte surface,
please let me 
know. I recently went through this with lyson small gamuts, and gave up on
them making 
a neutral print. Right now I'll try some more of the papers I have on
hand....thanks in 
advance, Doug M




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Re: eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Douglas Meeuwsen

here are some more test results in case anyone might be interested. 
Using black only, eboni inks is not usable with ilford smooth pearl or 
smooth gloss paper? However, there is essentially no bronzing. That 
tells me that the bronzing problem is in the 5 shades of grey, not the 
eboni black. The problem that eboni only has is that the ink simply 
wipes off the paper, almost like chalk. Now I did weeks of reading 
before buying into the eboni thing, and several places I read that the 
eboni ink was compatible with non-matte papers, clayton jones mentions 
it, as does paul roark. So far, I have ruled out the ilford papers, 
colorlife, and epson premium glossy. All of these are really really 
unaceptable. It is looking like I am going to dump a whole set of ink 
just to find out that the stuff simply does not work. I find it hard to 
beileve that changing a setting is going to make the ink stick to the 
paper, or fix bronzing. ....geez
On Jul 30, 2004, at 6:41 PM, Douglas Meeuwsen wrote:

> What media setting are you using with smooth pearl to get good
>  results?? I have pretty much tried allo them.......are you using 
> roarks
>  curves? Speaking of Dmax, these curves look pretty bad in the shadows,
>  even on matte paper. I just printed some greyscale test strips, and it
>  looks like the darkest block is black, then there is a drastic change
>  for the next block. If I use the no-curves-just sliders method with
>  matte paper, the greayscale strip is definitely� better. That may 
> offer
>  a clue to what is going on with my system. I am using a brand new 
> 1280,
>  mac osx panther, the newest driver from EPSON, working space =
>  adobe1998, print space =same as source. I am using the curves from the
>  website via the "image/adjustment/curves/load method.......is that
>  correct?....thanks again and again, DM
>  On Jul 30, 2004, at 6:13 PM, Douglas Meeuwsen wrote:
>
>  > Really???? I just tried classic pearl, and there is no bronzing at 
> all.
>  > None in any lighting. However....The ink just sits on the top and 
> can
>  > be smeared off in a gooey mess. I am heartened by your results with
>  > smooth pearl though. Now, in the direct sun it's not too bad (smooth
>  > pearl), but in window light or incandecent, it's really bad, 
> especially
>  > in the upper midtones. Also, the shadows are a totally diferent 
> grain
>  > pattern with the neutral curve than the carbon curve. Grainy 
> shadows,
>  > nice highlights. Weird. The carbon has smooth blotchy shadows, with 
> no
>  > grain at all......I'll keep reading and double checking. thanks, 
> Doug M
>  > On Jul 30, 2004, at 6:02 PM, wolarsky wrote:
>  >
>  >> I'm printing very successfully with a 1280 using UT2-Eboni and
>  >>� Galerie Smooth Pearl. In fact, the increased dMax makes the Photo 
> Rag
>  >>� prints seem a bit dull. I suspect that something is not correct in
>  >>� your settings because this combination does work.
>  >>
>  >>� By mistake, I tried printing on Classic Pearl and landed up with 
> the
>  >>� results you described, although you seem to have the right paper.
>  >>
>  >>� Evan
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>  >> resources as they are often being updated.
>  >>
>  >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>  >>
>  >>� If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
> wish
>  >> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>  >> this same page.
>  >>
>  >>� Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  >>� - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to
>  >> keep them short.
>  >>� - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>  >> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
> from
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[Digital BW] Re: eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by wolarsky

I'm using the 1280 on a Windows machine, and I don't know if that 
makes any difference. I just followed Paul Roark's directions which 
call for working space of Adobe RGB (1998). Of course, you have to 
convert the greyscale file to RGB before applying the curve. I've 
been using primarily the neutral curve, although I've tried some of 
the others. 

You may need Paul's help to straighten this out, as he is aware of 
most of the pitfalls.

Evan



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Meeuwsen 
<lipshurt@m...> wrote:
> What media setting are you using with smooth pearl to get good 
> results?? I have pretty much tried allo them.......are you using 
roarks 
> curves? Speaking of Dmax, these curves look pretty bad in the 
shadows, 
> even on matte paper. I just printed some greyscale test strips, and 
it 
> looks like the darkest block is black, then there is a drastic 
change 
> for the next block. If I use the no-curves-just sliders method with 
> matte paper, the greayscale strip is definitely  better. That may 
offer 
> a clue to what is going on with my system. I am using a brand new 
1280, 
> mac osx panther, the newest driver from EPSON, working space = 
> adobe1998, print space =same as source. I am using the curves from 
the 
> website via the "image/adjustment/curves/load method.......is that 
> correct?....thanks again and again, DM

Re: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Douglas Meeuwsen

thanks mr roark, that saves me great amount of time. Now I have another 
question, do you actually like the UT2 inks? I have just done some 
comparisons to eboni black only on a good matte surface, and quite 
frankly the UT2 prints are not nearly as good. Specifically the 
shadows. Cloth and hair simply looks blotchy with the UT2 ink. Then 
again, Black-only looks even better with the epson photoblack to me.I 
need to try to work it out I guess. I went thru this with the lyson 
quads, which I bailed on in favor of Black-only. I then went with the 
lyson small gamuts which were impossible to dial in, and then they 
turned green in two weeks. My first job I guess is to try get a 
greyscale strip to look good. Arrggh.....I have been doing this so 
long, about a year of 21 step strips. Black-only really does live up to 
the hype. I guess I'll drain these sets of UT2 since I paid for them 
and all. Thanks for the honesty about the papers.
On Jul 30, 2004, at 7:12 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Doug,
>
>  My UT2 information sheet states, in part:
>
>  "GLOSSY PAPERS - WITH EBONI BLACK INK
>
>  ...
>
>  Most of these papers have some reflective differentials or artifacts 
> that
>  can be reduced significantly with a spray like PremierArt Image 
> Shield or
>  Lyson Print Guard.� When sprayed, these papers have a surface that is
>  durable enough to be cleaned with a damp paper towel.
>
>  Curves are available for the following papers:
>
>  ...
>
>  Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl & Glossy papers:
>
>  ����������� (Use "Photo Quality Glossy Film" media type.)"
>
>
>
>  I think dye inks do have a visual advantage on most "glossy" surfaces.
>  Frankly, I don't like the supper glossy finishes on the microporous 
> papers
>  at all.� However, I think most find the pearl or semi-gloss surfaces 
> quite
>  pleasing -- when sprayed.� The spray is critical for all the papers 
> expect
>  the older Epson Glossy Photo Paper and related coatings.
>
>  The large dots you saw may indicate that either the resolution should 
> be
>  kicked up to 2880 or the paper type is wrong.� Flooding the paper is a
>  problem with Ilford.� Be sure to use the "Photo Quality Glossy Film"
>  setting.� If you still notice large looking dots at 2880 at about 
> 75%, then
>  your particular printer may just be putting out too much ink for the 
> paper.
>
>  Good luck.
>
>  Paul
>  www.PaulRoark.com
>
>  For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
>
>  __________________________________
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: lipshurt2002 [mailto:lipshurt@...]
>  Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 1:34 PM
>  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or 
> pearl.......What's up
>
>  so after reading all of the stuff on the roark website, I decide to 
> spring
>  for a set of UT2
>  inks for my epson 1280. I have been making nice prints using epson 
> ink,
>  Black only, on
>  every kind of paper, fine art, smooth pearl, high gloss, you name it. 
> I
>  started to think that
>  maybe they wont last, so I got the pigment UT2 set because
>  ...supposedly......they are
>  compatible with gloss and smooth gloss papers. Well, I have some 
> ilford
>  gallerie smooth
>  gloss for pigment inks, and some ilford gallerie smooth pearl for 
> pigment
>  inks. What a
>  disaster. The bronzing is extreme. SO extreme that anyone with any 
> standards
>  whatsoever
>  would just laugh. On the smooth gloss, the inks just set on the top, 
> and can
>  be DUSTED of
>  by the slightest wipe of a� handkerchief!......I mean totally erased. 
> I'll
>  bet the wind of
>  rustling papers would blow the ink off the paper. Something, I assume 
> is
>  wrong here. I was
>  usuing the "UT2-ilfordsmooth-eboni-carbon" curve, and following the 
> rest of
>  his
>  directions. Aside from the obvious problems, I also was not knocked 
> out by
>  the print as far
>  as smoothness and detail go. The Black only method has better 
> transitions
>  from dark to
>  black in the shadows. The shadow detail was lacking pretty bad, and 
> blotchy.
>  If I am
>  wasting my time trying to get this ink to print on a non-matte 
> surface,
>  please let me
>  know. I recently went through this with lyson small gamuts, and gave 
> up on
>  them making
>  a neutral print. Right now I'll try some more of the papers I have on
>  hand....thanks in
>  advance, Doug M
>
>
>
>
>  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
>  they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to
>  unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
> same
>  page.
>
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>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep
>  them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames.
>  Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>  membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W
>  printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
> from
>  the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>  guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and
>  Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
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> PRINT
>  YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
>  "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE 
> TO YOU
>  FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> EXEMPLARY
>  DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
>  GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE� "OWNER" 
> AND
>  "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
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>  POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
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>  TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> ACCESS TO OR
>  ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
> OF ANY
>  THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
> OTHER
>  MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
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> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Paul Roark

Doug,

>... do you actually like the UT2 inks?

Yes, for my type of printing and preferences I think they are the best 1280
solution that is out there.  Of course, I'm always trying to move forward,
and I have beta versions several more inksets and ideas for more.  So, I
obviously see room for improvement.  However, it's always a case of which
alternative is the best among the imperfect choices that are available, and
the look or style of printing makes a difference as to which of these
alternatives is best for you.

I think it might be best to start with a matte paper like EEM and print from
a grayscale file without using curves, using the "Color Controls" and
leaving the sliders at 0.  If that doesn't produce a good print at the
recommended settings (which are largely the default ones), then there may be
a more serious problem.


>... Cloth and hair simply looks blotchy with the UT2 ink. ...

This sounds like a settings or curves problem.

With curves there may need to be some tweaking to get them to fit the
precise printer and inkset batch characteristics.  "Canned" profiles and
curves just can't take into consideration all the printer variations. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/ 

______________________________________________

On Jul 30, 2004, at 7:12 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Doug,
>
>  My UT2 information sheet states, in part:
>
>  "GLOSSY PAPERS - WITH EBONI BLACK INK
>
>  ...
>
>  Most of these papers have some reflective differentials or artifacts 
> that
>  can be reduced significantly with a spray like PremierArt Image 
> Shield or
>  Lyson Print Guard.  When sprayed, these papers have a surface that is
>  durable enough to be cleaned with a damp paper towel.
>
>  Curves are available for the following papers:
>
>  ...
>
>  Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl & Glossy papers:
>
>              (Use "Photo Quality Glossy Film" media type.)"
>
>
>
>  I think dye inks do have a visual advantage on most "glossy" surfaces.
>  Frankly, I don't like the supper glossy finishes on the microporous 
> papers
>  at all.  However, I think most find the pearl or semi-gloss surfaces 
> quite
>  pleasing -- when sprayed.  The spray is critical for all the papers 
> expect
>  the older Epson Glossy Photo Paper and related coatings.
>
>  The large dots you saw may indicate that either the resolution should 
> be
>  kicked up to 2880 or the paper type is wrong.  Flooding the paper is a
>  problem with Ilford.  Be sure to use the "Photo Quality Glossy Film"
>  setting.  If you still notice large looking dots at 2880 at about 
> 75%, then
>  your particular printer may just be putting out too much ink for the 
> paper.
>
>  Good luck.
>
>  Paul
>  www.PaulRoark.com
>
>  For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
>
>  __________________________________
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: lipshurt2002 [mailto:lipshurt@...]
>  Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 1:34 PM
>  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or 
> pearl.......What's up
>
>  so after reading all of the stuff on the roark website, I decide to 
> spring
>  for a set of UT2
>  inks for my epson 1280. I have been making nice prints using epson 
> ink,
>  Black only, on
>  every kind of paper, fine art, smooth pearl, high gloss, you name it. 
> I
>  started to think that
>  maybe they wont last, so I got the pigment UT2 set because
>  ...supposedly......they are
>  compatible with gloss and smooth gloss papers. Well, I have some 
> ilford
>  gallerie smooth
>  gloss for pigment inks, and some ilford gallerie smooth pearl for 
> pigment
>  inks. What a
>  disaster. The bronzing is extreme. SO extreme that anyone with any 
> standards
>  whatsoever
>  would just laugh. On the smooth gloss, the inks just set on the top, 
> and can
>  be DUSTED of
>  by the slightest wipe of a  handkerchief!......I mean totally erased. 
> I'll
>  bet the wind of
>  rustling papers would blow the ink off the paper. Something, I assume 
> is
>  wrong here. I was
>  usuing the "UT2-ilfordsmooth-eboni-carbon" curve, and following the 
> rest of
>  his
>  directions. Aside from the obvious problems, I also was not knocked 
> out by
>  the print as far
>  as smoothness and detail go. The Black only method has better 
> transitions
>  from dark to
>  black in the shadows. The shadow detail was lacking pretty bad, and 
> blotchy.
>  If I am
>  wasting my time trying to get this ink to print on a non-matte 
> surface,
>  please let me
>  know. I recently went through this with lyson small gamuts, and gave 
> up on
>  them making
>  a neutral print. Right now I'll try some more of the papers I have on
>  hand....thanks in
>  advance, Doug M
>
>
>
>
>  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
>  they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to
>  unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
> same
>  page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep
>  them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames.
>  Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>  membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W
>  printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
> from
>  the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>  guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and
>  Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT
>  YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
>  "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE 
> TO YOU
>  FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> EXEMPLARY
>  DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
>  GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" 
> AND
>  "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
> OF THE
>  POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
> INABILITY
>  TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> ACCESS TO OR
>  ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
> OF ANY
>  THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
> OTHER
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Re: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Douglas Meeuwsen

thanks again..... it seems like it would make more sense to use curves 
from the output/transfer part of photoshop. Then there is a curve for 
the black also. But really, I would rather just have something that 
just plain works. I am a musician, and most of my prints are from 
recording sessions, or concerts, of other musicians. Musicians are 
always happy to get some nice shots, and prints etc. They dont really 
know anything about fine art papers, and are usually very un-impressed 
by a matte print.  Quite frankly, to me it's just glorified xerox 
paper. I guess there is no real solution except printing with epson ink 
on colorlife paper using black-only. I have some freinds that do BW 
chemical prints and they too dont think much of matte paper. I went to 
the Del mar photography exhibit, and out of maybe 500 BW prints, I 
think there was one or two  prints that were on matte or fine art 
paper. All of them were semigloss. I'll see if I can get the UT2 to 
look as good as Black-only. It would be nice to get a warm tone 
sometimes.
On Jul 30, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Doug,
>
>  >... do you actually like the UT2 inks?
>
>  Yes, for my type of printing and preferences I think they are the 
> best 1280
>  solution that is out there.� Of course, I'm always trying to move 
> forward,
>  and I have beta versions several more inksets and ideas for more.� 
> So, I
>  obviously see room for improvement.� However, it's always a case of 
> which
>  alternative is the best among the imperfect choices that are 
> available, and
>  the look or style of printing makes a difference as to which of these
>  alternatives is best for you.
>
>  I think it might be best to start with a matte paper like EEM and 
> print from
>  a grayscale file without using curves, using the "Color Controls" and
>  leaving the sliders at 0.� If that doesn't produce a good print at the
>  recommended settings (which are largely the default ones), then there 
> may be
>  a more serious problem.
>
>
>  >... Cloth and hair simply looks blotchy with the UT2 ink. ...
>
>  This sounds like a settings or curves problem.
>
>  With curves there may need to be some tweaking to get them to fit the
>  precise printer and inkset batch characteristics.� "Canned" profiles 
> and
>  curves just can't take into consideration all the printer variations.
>
>  Paul
>  www.PaulRoark.com
>
>  For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
>
>  ______________________________________________
>
>  On Jul 30, 2004, at 7:12 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
>
>  > Doug,
>  >
>  >� My UT2 information sheet states, in part:
>  >
>  >� "GLOSSY PAPERS - WITH EBONI BLACK INK
>  >
>  >� ...
>  >
>  >� Most of these papers have some reflective differentials or 
> artifacts
>  > that
>  >� can be reduced significantly with a spray like PremierArt Image
>  > Shield or
>  >� Lyson Print Guard.� When sprayed, these papers have a surface that 
> is
>  >� durable enough to be cleaned with a damp paper towel.
>  >
>  >� Curves are available for the following papers:
>  >
>  >� ...
>  >
>  >� Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl & Glossy papers:
>  >
>  >� ����������� (Use "Photo Quality Glossy Film" media type.)"
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >� I think dye inks do have a visual advantage on most "glossy" 
> surfaces.
>  >� Frankly, I don't like the supper glossy finishes on the microporous
>  > papers
>  >� at all.� However, I think most find the pearl or semi-gloss 
> surfaces
>  > quite
>  >� pleasing -- when sprayed.� The spray is critical for all the papers
>  > expect
>  >� the older Epson Glossy Photo Paper and related coatings.
>  >
>  >� The large dots you saw may indicate that either the resolution 
> should
>  > be
>  >� kicked up to 2880 or the paper type is wrong.� Flooding the paper 
> is a
>  >� problem with Ilford.� Be sure to use the "Photo Quality Glossy 
> Film"
>  >� setting.� If you still notice large looking dots at 2880 at about
>  > 75%, then
>  >� your particular printer may just be putting out too much ink for 
> the
>  > paper.
>  >
>  >� Good luck.
>  >
>  >� Paul
>  >� www.PaulRoark.com
>  >
>  >� For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
>  > http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
>  >
>  >� __________________________________
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >� -----Original Message-----
>  >� From: lipshurt2002 [mailto:lipshurt@...]
>  >� Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 1:34 PM
>  >� To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>  >� Subject: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or
>  > pearl.......What's up
>  >
>  >� so after reading all of the stuff on the roark website, I decide to
>  > spring
>  >� for a set of UT2
>  >� inks for my epson 1280. I have been making nice prints using epson
>  > ink,
>  >� Black only, on
>  >� every kind of paper, fine art, smooth pearl, high gloss, you name 
> it.
>  > I
>  >� started to think that
>  >� maybe they wont last, so I got the pigment UT2 set because
>  >� ...supposedly......they are
>  >� compatible with gloss and smooth gloss papers. Well, I have some
>  > ilford
>  >� gallerie smooth
>  >� gloss for pigment inks, and some ilford gallerie smooth pearl for
>  > pigment
>  >� inks. What a
>  >� disaster. The bronzing is extreme. SO extreme that anyone with any
>  > standards
>  >� whatsoever
>  >� would just laugh. On the smooth gloss, the inks just set on the 
> top,
>  > and can
>  >� be DUSTED of
>  >� by the slightest wipe of a� handkerchief!......I mean totally 
> erased.
>  > I'll
>  >� bet the wind of
>  >� rustling papers would blow the ink off the paper. Something, I 
> assume
>  > is
>  >� wrong here. I was
>  >� usuing the "UT2-ilfordsmooth-eboni-carbon" curve, and following the
>  > rest of
>  >� his
>  >� directions. Aside from the obvious problems, I also was not knocked
>  > out by
>  >� the print as far
>  >� as smoothness and detail go. The Black only method has better
>  > transitions
>  >� from dark to
>  >� black in the shadows. The shadow detail was lacking pretty bad, and
>  > blotchy.
>  >� If I am
>  >� wasting my time trying to get this ink to print on a non-matte
>  > surface,
>  >� please let me
>  >� know. I recently went through this with lyson small gamuts, and 
> gave
>  > up on
>  >� them making
>  >� a neutral print. Right now I'll try some more of the papers I have 
> on
>  >� hand....thanks in
>  >� advance, Doug M
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >� Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>  > resources as
>  >� they are often being updated.
>  >
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RE: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-07-31 by Paul Roark

Doug,

>... it seems like it would make more sense to use curves 
>from the output/transfer part of photoshop. Then there is a curve for 
>the black also.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean here.  The "Transfer function" in the driver
gives pure control.  It would be great to have direct control of the black
ink, but the Epson printers only deal with RGB.  A CMYK image in Photoshop
is converted to RGB when sent to the printer.  As far as I know a third
party RIP is the only way to get direct control of the black ink, and that
is one reason some prefer them.

> ... very un-impressed by a matte print.  Quite frankly, to me 
>it's just glorified xerox paper. 

I felt that way at first, but now I prefer it due to its lack of reflections
off the surface.

If you have no interest in matte papers, why don't you put MIS Photo K in
the black position instead of Eboni.  Then the sliders would work with
glossy (which includes the pearl and Semigloss surfaces) paper, and I also
have curves for selected glossy papers and the Photo K.

I'd think the artifact-free and cheap Epson Glossy Photo Paper with Photo K
would be a good solution for you.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/ 

_______________________________________


On Jul 30, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Doug,
>
>  >... do you actually like the UT2 inks?
>
>  Yes, for my type of printing and preferences I think they are the 
> best 1280
>  solution that is out there.  Of course, I'm always trying to move 
> forward,
>  and I have beta versions several more inksets and ideas for more.  
> So, I
>  obviously see room for improvement.  However, it's always a case of 
> which
>  alternative is the best among the imperfect choices that are 
> available, and
>  the look or style of printing makes a difference as to which of these
>  alternatives is best for you.
>
>  I think it might be best to start with a matte paper like EEM and 
> print from
>  a grayscale file without using curves, using the "Color Controls" and
>  leaving the sliders at 0.  If that doesn't produce a good print at the
>  recommended settings (which are largely the default ones), then there 
> may be
>  a more serious problem.
>
>
>  >... Cloth and hair simply looks blotchy with the UT2 ink. ...
>
>  This sounds like a settings or curves problem.
>
>  With curves there may need to be some tweaking to get them to fit the
>  precise printer and inkset batch characteristics.  "Canned" profiles 
> and
>  curves just can't take into consideration all the printer variations.
>
>  Paul
>  www.PaulRoark.com
>
>  For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
>
>  ______________________________________________
>
>  On Jul 30, 2004, at 7:12 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
>
>  > Doug,
>  >
>  >  My UT2 information sheet states, in part:
>  >
>  >  "GLOSSY PAPERS - WITH EBONI BLACK INK
>  >
>  >  ...
>  >
>  >  Most of these papers have some reflective differentials or 
> artifacts
>  > that
>  >  can be reduced significantly with a spray like PremierArt Image
>  > Shield or
>  >  Lyson Print Guard.  When sprayed, these papers have a surface that 
> is
>  >  durable enough to be cleaned with a damp paper towel.
>  >
>  >  Curves are available for the following papers:
>  >
>  >  ...
>  >
>  >  Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl & Glossy papers:
>  >
>  >              (Use "Photo Quality Glossy Film" media type.)"
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  I think dye inks do have a visual advantage on most "glossy" 
> surfaces.
>  >  Frankly, I don't like the supper glossy finishes on the microporous
>  > papers
>  >  at all.  However, I think most find the pearl or semi-gloss 
> surfaces
>  > quite
>  >  pleasing -- when sprayed.  The spray is critical for all the papers
>  > expect
>  >  the older Epson Glossy Photo Paper and related coatings.
>  >
>  >  The large dots you saw may indicate that either the resolution 
> should
>  > be
>  >  kicked up to 2880 or the paper type is wrong.  Flooding the paper 
> is a
>  >  problem with Ilford.  Be sure to use the "Photo Quality Glossy 
> Film"
>  >  setting.  If you still notice large looking dots at 2880 at about
>  > 75%, then
>  >  your particular printer may just be putting out too much ink for 
> the
>  > paper.
>  >
>  >  Good luck.
>  >
>  >  Paul
>  >  www.PaulRoark.com
>  >
>  >  For UT2 & UT7 information, curves, and settings see:
>  > http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
>  >
>  >  __________________________________
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  -----Original Message-----
>  >  From: lipshurt2002 [mailto:lipshurt@mac.com]
>  >  Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 1:34 PM
>  >  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>  >  Subject: [Digital BW] eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or
>  > pearl.......What's up
>  >
>  >  so after reading all of the stuff on the roark website, I decide to
>  > spring
>  >  for a set of UT2
>  >  inks for my epson 1280. I have been making nice prints using epson
>  > ink,
>  >  Black only, on
>  >  every kind of paper, fine art, smooth pearl, high gloss, you name 
> it.
>  > I
>  >  started to think that
>  >  maybe they wont last, so I got the pigment UT2 set because
>  >  ...supposedly......they are
>  >  compatible with gloss and smooth gloss papers. Well, I have some
>  > ilford
>  >  gallerie smooth
>  >  gloss for pigment inks, and some ilford gallerie smooth pearl for
>  > pigment
>  >  inks. What a
>  >  disaster. The bronzing is extreme. SO extreme that anyone with any
>  > standards
>  >  whatsoever
>  >  would just laugh. On the smooth gloss, the inks just set on the 
> top,
>  > and can
>  >  be DUSTED of
>  >  by the slightest wipe of a  handkerchief!......I mean totally 
> erased.
>  > I'll
>  >  bet the wind of
>  >  rustling papers would blow the ink off the paper. Something, I 
> assume
>  > is
>  >  wrong here. I was
>  >  usuing the "UT2-ilfordsmooth-eboni-carbon" curve, and following the
>  > rest of
>  >  his
>  >  directions. Aside from the obvious problems, I also was not knocked
>  > out by
>  >  the print as far
>  >  as smoothness and detail go. The Black only method has better
>  > transitions
>  >  from dark to
>  >  black in the shadows. The shadow detail was lacking pretty bad, and
>  > blotchy.
>  >  If I am
>  >  wasting my time trying to get this ink to print on a non-matte
>  > surface,
>  >  please let me
>  >  know. I recently went through this with lyson small gamuts, and 
> gave
>  > up on
>  >  them making
>  >  a neutral print. Right now I'll try some more of the papers I have 
> on
>  >  hand....thanks in
>  >  advance, Doug M
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>  > resources as
>  >  they are often being updated.
>  >
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Re: eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-08-01 by Antonis

Doug,


this may not be what you are interested in pursuing, but making your
own profiles can sometimes give you better control when you mix
and match inks and papers. Since you are on OS X, you should be
aware that there are 2 solutions that allow you to do that and they
are much cheaper than full-fledged RIP software.

If you have missed those discussions on the list, you can search for
either QTR (Quad Tone RIP) or IJC/OPM (InkjetControl/OpenPrintMaker).

Here are their respective sites:

http://www.harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

http://www.bowhaus.com/inkjetcontrol/


Either software will allow you to make your own profiles and so
control how much ink goes in what part of the grayscale. This
would help with overloading a glossy paper - a common problem.
It also lets you test different papers on the fly whether there are
(RGB workflow) curves for them or not. Software like that
doesn't care which inkset you are using or even in what
order your inks are loaded in the printer.
With grayscale profiles and these drivers you can accurately
and directly address each ink channel without going through the
Epson driver. One less variable to fight.

I have only used IJC/OPM and find that - once you get familiar with
its functions - making a basic profile for a new ink and paper is a matter
of under a half hour and 2 or 3  sheets of paper. A new user will take
longer, of course, and you should be aware that there is a learning
curve. Also, a densitometer is needed for best control, but the 
software lets you make quick profiles using a desktop scanner.
Frankly, I sometimes throw a decent profile together by eyeball
if I have an accurate print of a grayscale to compare to. 


Of course, no software will make ink stick to paper when it doesn't
"want" to. Coating the print, especially on glossy media, is simply
part of the reality of inkjet printing right now. 

As for glossy papers - I completely understand why you would
prefer the look. But I have gone back and forth, and, like Paul, have
taken the position that matte papers, even with a lower maximum
density (dMax), hold up to different display lighting better 
because they avoid reflecting surrounding light surfaces. 
Also, there are matte papers and matte papers....  everyone knows
Epson Enhanced Matte, but, if you haven't tried yet, give the
Hahnemuhle papers a shot (like Photo Rag). Very expensive, but
they deliver a deeper black and a richer surface.
 
Despite all that, I still appreciate a good glossy print for the
right image. I don't see matte as the one-that-fits-all.
The best I have seen so far in glossy papers is the Darkroom Range 
Lyson Glossy. It only works with dye inks, however, and so is not 
appropriate for your inkset right now. 
Even then, prints made on that paper with Lyson dyes remain
water soluble after they dry and should really be coated to avoid
accidents in handling. Which goes to show you that, unfortunately, 
there is still no perfect substitute for those glossy bw darkroom prints
we all took for granted not so long ago!.....


Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Meeuwsen 
<lipshurt@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> thanks again..... it seems like it would make more sense to use curves 
> from the output/transfer part of photoshop. Then there is a curve for 
> the black also. But really, I would rather just have something that 
> just plain works. I am a musician, and most of my prints are from 
> recording sessions, or concerts, of other musicians. Musicians are 
> always happy to get some nice shots, and prints etc. They dont really 
> know anything about fine art papers, and are usually very un-impressed 
> by a matte print.  Quite frankly, to me it's just glorified xerox 
> paper. I guess there is no real solution except printing with epson ink 
> on colorlife paper using black-only. I have some freinds that do BW 
> chemical prints and they too dont think much of matte paper. I went to 
> the Del mar photography exhibit, and out of maybe 500 BW prints, I 
> think there was one or two  prints that were on matte or fine art 
> paper. All of them were semigloss. I'll see if I can get the UT2 to 
> look as good as Black-only. It would be nice to get a warm tone 
> sometimes.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: eboni, UT2, and semi-gloss or pearl.......What's up

2004-08-01 by Douglas Meeuwsen

actually right now, with UT2 inks, I am getting real nice prints, if 
you ignore the bronzing. There is no bronzing on matte of course. I was 
able to get the out/transfer curve to work real good in photoshop. You 
can control the black independently, with the black curve. This way, I 
can use the sliders with gloss paper, and the deepest black is not 
powdery. I believe that paul roark accomplishes this with his curves. 
The 21 step strips are really good, and so are my prints. The bronzing 
is only in the lighter areas.  You can control the Other CMY curves 
there too, but it was getting complicated, so I am sticking to the 
sliders for now, and just using the adjustment to the Black transfer 
curve to print on pearl. With out using the ajdustment, the 21 step 
strip comes out all chalky on the dark end. Actually after dialing out 
the black at the very end, the black is blacker. Probably because it is 
mow glossy instead of dull.......I like the UT2 inks because of the 
tones. They are much better than lyson quadblacks which were a weird 
color to my eye. Have not really compared a print with Black-only yet. 
...thanks for all the help!... especially mr. Roark. Great website. We 
should take up a collection for you !....Doug M
On Aug 1, 2004, at 10:16 AM, Antonis wrote:

> Doug,
>
>
>  this may not be what you are interested in pursuing, but making your
>  own profiles can sometimes give you better control when you mix
>  and match inks and papers. Since you are on OS X, you should be
>  aware that there are 2 solutions that allow you to do that and they
>  are much cheaper than full-fledged RIP software.
>
>  If you have missed those discussions on the list, you can search for
>  either QTR (Quad Tone RIP) or IJC/OPM (InkjetControl/OpenPrintMaker).
>
>  Here are their respective sites:
>
> http://www.harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html
>
> http://www.bowhaus.com/inkjetcontrol/
>
>
>  Either software will allow you to make your own profiles and so
>  control how much ink goes in what part of the grayscale. This
>  would help with overloading a glossy paper - a common problem.
>  It also lets you test different papers on the fly whether there are
>  (RGB workflow) curves for them or not. Software like that
>  doesn't care which inkset you are using or even in what
>  order your inks are loaded in the printer.
>  With grayscale profiles and these drivers you can accurately
>  and directly address each ink channel without going through the
>  Epson driver. One less variable to fight.
>
>  I have only used IJC/OPM and find that - once you get familiar with
>  its functions - making a basic profile for a new ink and paper is a 
> matter
>  of under a half hour and 2 or 3� sheets of paper. A new user will take
>  longer, of course, and you should be aware that there is a learning
>  curve. Also, a densitometer is needed for best control, but the
>  software lets you make quick profiles using a desktop scanner.
>  Frankly, I sometimes throw a decent profile together by eyeball
>  if I have an accurate print of a grayscale to compare to.
>
>
>  Of course, no software will make ink stick to paper when it doesn't
>  "want" to. Coating the print, especially on glossy media, is simply
>  part of the reality of inkjet printing right now.
>
>  As for glossy papers - I completely understand why you would
>  prefer the look. But I have gone back and forth, and, like Paul, have
>  taken the position that matte papers, even with a lower maximum
>  density (dMax), hold up to different display lighting better
>  because they avoid reflecting surrounding light surfaces.
>  Also, there are matte papers and matte papers....� everyone knows
>  Epson Enhanced Matte, but, if you haven't tried yet, give the
>  Hahnemuhle papers a shot (like Photo Rag). Very expensive, but
>  they deliver a deeper black and a richer surface.
>
>  Despite all that, I still appreciate a good glossy print for the
>  right image. I don't see matte as the one-that-fits-all.
>  The best I have seen so far in glossy papers is the Darkroom Range
>  Lyson Glossy. It only works with dye inks, however, and so is not
>  appropriate for your inkset right now.
>  Even then, prints made on that paper with Lyson dyes remain
>  water soluble after they dry and should really be coated to avoid
>  accidents in handling. Which goes to show you that, unfortunately,
>  there is still no perfect substitute for those glossy bw darkroom 
> prints
>  we all took for granted not so long ago!.....
>
>
>  Antonis
>
>
>
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Meeuwsen
>  <lipshurt@m...> wrote:
>  > thanks again..... it seems like it would make more sense to use 
> curves
>  > from the output/transfer part of photoshop. Then there is a curve 
> for
>  > the black also. But really, I would rather just have something that
>  > just plain works. I am a musician, and most of my prints are from
>  > recording sessions, or concerts, of other musicians. Musicians are
>  > always happy to get some nice shots, and prints etc. They dont 
> really
>  > know anything about fine art papers, and are usually very 
> un-impressed
>  > by a matte print.� Quite frankly, to me it's just glorified xerox
>  > paper. I guess there is no real solution except printing with epson 
> ink
>  > on colorlife paper using black-only. I have some freinds that do BW
>  > chemical prints and they too dont think much of matte paper. I went 
> to
>  > the Del mar photography exhibit, and out of maybe 500 BW prints, I
>  > think there was one or two� prints that were on matte or fine art
>  > paper. All of them were semigloss. I'll see if I can get the UT2 to
>  > look as good as Black-only. It would be nice to get a warm tone
>  > sometimes.
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.