Digital BW, The Print

I use UT7 inks on a 7600. I have to identify the medium for 
exhibition. Carbon on cotton? Micro-piezo inkjet prints? It has been 
suggested I call them Giclee, since that word has cachet with certain 
clients (but which I don't like). I've been calling my old quadtones 
printed on a 3000 "micro-piezo inkjet prints," but my gallery says 
that's too long. I'd sure like to hear how you name this medium.
             Happy printing,
                   Arlene

Hi Arlene

I call my UT2 ink prints carbon pigment prints.
 


lovelipp <ArleneLoveL@...> wrote:
I use UT7 inks on a 7600. I have to identify the medium for 
exhibition. Carbon on cotton? Micro-piezo inkjet prints? It has been 
suggested I call them Giclee, since that word has cachet with certain 
clients (but which I don't like). I've been calling my old quadtones 
printed on a 3000 "micro-piezo inkjet prints," but my gallery says 
that's too long. I'd sure like to hear how you name this medium.
             Happy printing,
                   Arlene



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 8/3/04 9:25:24 AM, ArleneLoveL@... writes:


> Giclee
> 

Arlene,
I'm not sure why you don't like the term "Giclee." If you come up with some 
new classification of prints, I think you are setting up your gallery to 
unlimited questions about how your prints were made. The Giclee explanation will 
usually end the conversation about how the images were made. Right or wrong, the 
term Giclee has been a great marketing tool.
Steve Burger


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lovelipp"
<ArleneLoveL@a...> wrote:
> I use UT7 inks on a 7600. I have to identify the medium for 
> exhibition. Carbon on cotton? Micro-piezo inkjet prints? It has been 
> suggested I call them Giclee, since that word has cachet with certain 
> clients (but which I don't like). I've been calling my old quadtones 
> printed on a 3000 "micro-piezo inkjet prints," but my gallery says 
> that's too long. I'd sure like to hear how you name this medium.
>              Happy printing,
>                    Arlene

There is no standard. So here's a few suggestions.

- Carbon Pigment Print (my choice)
- Carbon pigment on cotton paper.
- Carbon inkjet, Archival carbon inkjet
- Carbon based pigment prints
- Archival inkjet prints

Clyde Butcher calls his prints:
- Digital Prints 
- Fine Art Inkjet Prints

There are surely other choices.

Giclee, amongts other meaning, is simply another meaning for inkjet
print. That's the last word I would use. It's pretentious and pedantic.

At 12:24 PM 8/3/2004, lovelipp wrote:
>I use UT7 inks on a 7600. I have to identify the medium for
>exhibition. Carbon on cotton? Micro-piezo inkjet prints? It has been
>suggested I call them Giclee, since that word has cachet with certain
>clients (but which I don't like). I've been calling my old quadtones
>printed on a 3000 "micro-piezo inkjet prints," but my gallery says
>that's too long. I'd sure like to hear how you name this medium.

I put on my labels

         Carbon print (Piezography process)

And for color prints using pigment inks

         Pigment print



  A r t h u r    F i n k     P h o t o g r a p h y
  ------------------------------------------------
  Ten New Island Avenue               207.766.5722
  Peaks Island, Maine 04108  arthur@...

> Arlene,
> I'm not sure why you don't like the term "Giclee." If you come up
> with some
> new classification of prints, I think you are setting up your gallery to
> unlimited questions about how your prints were made. The Giclee
> explanation will
> usually end the conversation about how the images were made.
> Right or wrong, the
> term Giclee has been a great marketing tool.

well - at least two reasons

1. "to ejaculate"

2. Giclee is rapidly being appropriated by the art reproduction printers
(and gradually becoming seen in the gallery owner/publics eyes to mean art
reproduction) so "a giclee" is coming more and more to mean a quality
reproduction of an original work, rather than (also) meaning and original
print - in this case a "photogrpahic" print

tim

> - Carbon Pigment Print (my choice)

The big problem with this is there are existing carbon pigment prints (where
that exact term and also variations of it are used) which are very different
from what we are talking about here - which can confuse institutions, the
public and also, practising carbon pigment printers, who get very hot under
the collar about us appropriating the term...

> - Carbon pigment on cotton paper

same with this to some extent (as "true" carbon/pigment prints are often
printed on cotton paper)

It's like saying (slightly bad example) hey - this new glossy resin coated
inkjet paper is really great - lets call them "RC Glossy Prints" - it would
just be confusing - you wouldn't do it

This is in part why the slightly clumsy term (mainly, but not only for
colour work) Pigmented Prints has evolved (or pigmented inkjet prints or
several variations thereof)


tim a

> I put on my labels
>
>          Carbon print (Piezography process)
>
> And for color prints using pigment inks
>
>          Pigment print

same problem I outlined below here - unless you clearly specify the inkjet
or piezo process (as you do in the top one)

there are existing, long established Carbon Print and Pigment Print
processes (which also happen to be some of the most long lasting
photogrpahic process around - which is why some critics have whispered
"deception" - something I disagree with - but the label is out there - I
think it's down to lack of knowledge of photogrpahic processes in most
cases)

tim a

I really like the "Fine Art Inkjet Prints".  It's factual, descriptive, and unpretentious.  And, it sets the work apart from the 'office' inkjet.  If one doesn't like the word inkjet in the description, then "Fine Art Digital Prints" would probably work.  It doesn't really describe the process specifically.  But, it sounds pretty good, and doesn't have that phony ring to it that giclee has.
 
Tom Baker

Andre <am1000@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lovelipp"
wrote:
> I use UT7 inks on a 7600. I have to identify the medium for 
> exhibition. Carbon on cotton? Micro-piezo inkjet prints? It has been 
> suggested I call them Giclee, since that word has cachet with certain 
> clients (but which I don't like). I've been calling my old quadtones 
> printed on a 3000 "micro-piezo inkjet prints," but my gallery says 
> that's too long. I'd sure like to hear how you name this medium.
> Happy printing,
> Arlene

There is no standard. So here's a few suggestions.

- Carbon Pigment Print (my choice)
- Carbon pigment on cotton paper.
- Carbon inkjet, Archival carbon inkjet
- Carbon based pigment prints
- Archival inkjet prints

Clyde Butcher calls his prints:
- Digital Prints 
- Fine Art Inkjet Prints

There are surely other choices.

Giclee, amongts other meaning, is simply another meaning for inkjet
print. That's the last word I would use. It's pretentious and pedantic. 








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A follow up.  I had an interesting coversation last weekend at a local art fair.  I use the term inkjet in all of my descriptions.  A woman who was selling prints of her watercolors as 'giclee' came by to complain to me that I was doing everyone a 'great diservice' by using the term inkjet.  Everyone has a point of view.
 
Tom Baker

Andre <am1000@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lovelipp"
wrote:
> I use UT7 inks on a 7600. I have to identify the medium for 
> exhibition. Carbon on cotton? Micro-piezo inkjet prints? It has been 
> suggested I call them Giclee, since that word has cachet with certain 
> clients (but which I don't like). I've been calling my old quadtones 
> printed on a 3000 "micro-piezo inkjet prints," but my gallery says 
> that's too long. I'd sure like to hear how you name this medium.
> Happy printing,
> Arlene

There is no standard. So here's a few suggestions.

- Carbon Pigment Print (my choice)
- Carbon pigment on cotton paper.
- Carbon inkjet, Archival carbon inkjet
- Carbon based pigment prints
- Archival inkjet prints

Clyde Butcher calls his prints:
- Digital Prints 
- Fine Art Inkjet Prints

There are surely other choices.

Giclee, amongts other meaning, is simply another meaning for inkjet
print. That's the last word I would use. It's pretentious and pedantic. 








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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Those traditionalists are just jealous of  us and anything they don't know how to do. They 
have always been that way and always will be that way until they die out.
Tell them we don't care about the 19th Century, we have moved on and they should too.




Carbon Pigment Inkjet Print

Digital Carbon Pigment Print
--------------------------
Inkjet Pigment Print

Digital Inkjet Pigment Print

At 01:17 PM 8/3/2004, Tim Atherton wrote:

> > I put on my labels
> >
> >          Carbon print (Piezography process)
> >
> > And for color prints using pigment inks
> >
> >          Pigment print
>
>same problem I outlined below here - unless you clearly specify the inkjet
>or piezo process (as you do in the top one)
>
>there are existing, long established Carbon Print and Pigment Print
>processes (which also happen to be some of the most long lasting
>photogrpahic process around - which is why some critics have whispered
>"deception" - something I disagree with - but the label is out there - I
>think it's down to lack of knowledge of photogrpahic processes in most
>cases)

         Would you prefer

                 Carbon inkjet print (Piezography process)

                 Pigment inkjet print

         Does the word "inkjet" hurt?  Many people assume that
         inkjet means fading, and poor quality.  We need to
         educate, but I'm not sure that the print label is
         where to do that.



  A r t h u r    F i n k     P h o t o g r a p h y
  ------------------------------------------------
  Ten New Island Avenue               207.766.5722
  Peaks Island, Maine 04108  arthur@...

I think this goes to show that there needs to be much more education 
available for the buyers, and us printers. It took many years of people 
having the term Giclee reamed down their throats, so it is going to be 
hard for them to choke that up quickly. What we need is some 
organization to create a new word (although I feel Giclee did the 
trick) and make it the standard for today's digital inkjet printing 
processes. Well, I can dream, can't I?
Mark

On Aug 3, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Arthur Fink wrote:

> At 01:17 PM 8/3/2004, Tim Atherton wrote:
>
>  > > I put on my labels
>  > >
>  > >��������� Carbon print (Piezography process)
>  > >
>  > > And for color prints using pigment inks
>  > >
>  > >��������� Pigment print
>  >
>  >same problem I outlined below here - unless you clearly specify the 
> inkjet
>  >or piezo process (as you do in the top one)
>  >
>  >there are existing, long established Carbon Print and Pigment Print
>  >processes (which also happen to be some of the most long lasting
>  >photogrpahic process around - which is why some critics have 
> whispered
>  >"deception" - something I disagree with - but the label is out there 
> - I
>  >think it's down to lack of knowledge of photogrpahic processes in 
> most
>  >cases)
>
>  �������� Would you prefer
>
>  ���������������� Carbon inkjet print (Piezography process)
>
>  ���������������� Pigment inkjet print
>
>  �������� Does the word "inkjet" hurt?� Many people assume that
>  �������� inkjet means fading, and poor quality.� We need to
>  �������� educate, but I'm not sure that the print label is
>  �������� where to do that.
>
>
>
>  � A r t h u r��� F i n k���� P h o t o g r a p h y
>  � ------------------------------------------------
>  � Ten New Island Avenue�������������� 207.766.5722
>  � Peaks Island, Maine 04108� arthur@...
>
>
>
>
>  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
> Files section:
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> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Those traditionalists are just jealous of  us and anything they
> don't know how to do. They
> have always been that way and always will be that way until they die out.
> Tell them we don't care about the 19th Century, we have moved on
> and they should too.
>

John,

it isn't just that - it's also that these are accepted, existing terms
within the gallery/collector/museum world about what you are getting when a
print is called a certain thing

(in addition many, especially US, jurisdictions have varying degrees of laws
requiring certain things in the descriptions of prints/art which are sold -
but it varies hugely from State to State and some are much more rigorous
than others. Depending on where you sell it, if you sell something described
as a Carbon Pigment Print, but it turns out to be (however good) an inkjet
print, not a "real" Carbon Pigment Print, you could be heading for problems)

tim

I know Museums like descriptive names.  I like the following that I 
think are descriptive:

Digital Carbon Print
Digital Carbon on Rag (or cotton) paper
Digital Carbon Pigment Print
("Digital" being optional)
Carbon print (Piezography process)-As mentioned before
Carbon based pigment print

or any combination of the above that works.
What ever name you use I think it needs to say "Craftsmanship"; and 
not the common, "anybody do this stuff" (inkjet).

I don't like the word inkjet, because of misconceptions, and I think 
it will cheapen peoples impressions of the print; "Hey I got one of 
them at home".  Not good if you are selling your work!  People buying 
prints like to think they are getting something special.  You don't 
see a "Weston" labeled in a Museum as "Kodak B&W Print" even though 
it is, no it says "Gelatin Silver Print".
Randy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Fink 
<arthur@a...> wrote:
> At 01:17 PM 8/3/2004, Tim Atherton wrote:
> 
> > > I put on my labels
> > >
> > >          Carbon print (Piezography process)
> > >
> > > And for color prints using pigment inks
> > >
> > >          Pigment print
> >
> >same problem I outlined below here - unless you clearly specify 
the inkjet
> >or piezo process (as you do in the top one)
> >
> >there are existing, long established Carbon Print and Pigment Print
> >processes (which also happen to be some of the most long lasting
> >photogrpahic process around - which is why some critics have 
whispered
> >"deception" - something I disagree with - but the label is out 
there - I
> >think it's down to lack of knowledge of photogrpahic processes in 
most

> >cases)
> 
>          Would you prefer
> 
>                  Carbon inkjet print (Piezography process)
> 
>                  Pigment inkjet print
> 
>          Does the word "inkjet" hurt?  Many people assume that
>          inkjet means fading, and poor quality.  We need to
>          educate, but I'm not sure that the print label is
>          where to do that.
> 
> 
> 
>   A r t h u r    F i n k     P h o t o g r a p h y
>   ------------------------------------------------
>   Ten New Island Avenue               207.766.5722
>   Peaks Island, Maine 04108  arthur@a...

>there are existing, long established Carbon Print and Pigment Print
>processes (which also happen to be some of the most long lasting
>photogrpahic process around...

These names have certainly caused some controversy.  For this reason I
prefer the term "Carbon Ink Print" because it is both distinctive and
technically accurate.  There is an article on my web site which
outlines all the other reasons I like the name, so I won't reproduce
it all here

      http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn6.htm


Just my .02 worth.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Unfortunately, this is a thread that shows its ugly
head every couple months.  Generally, we get the same
answers, and a quite a few are misleading
historically.

The title of "pigment print" is is a misnomer because
it is already used to describe a completely different
and historic process.

A "Carbon Print" is a very labor intensive and
beautiful process that very few people practice
currently.  Clayton's use of "Carbon ink print" is
very accurate, as it does not use the same name for a
completely different process.  While our carbon ink
prints have stunning longevity, I doubt that they will
achieve the same lifespan as that of a true carbon
print.

The best solution I have used is simply "Piezograph"
(piezo being the technology we utilize in inkjet
printing).  I have previously used this description
for both color and monochrome works, as it does not
mislead or confuse by using the same terminology as
historic processes.  However, it does distinguish our
process from conventional silver and alternative
process printing.

For a more specific description, I now utilize "Carbon
Piezograph" and "Pigment Piezograph" to distinguish
between color and monochrome works as well as the
nature/composition of the print as well as its
longevity.

Any thoughts/takers?

Don Hill



 


	
		
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I use Ultrachrome inks and really like the Ilford Smooth Gloss.

I'm think of calling them Ilfochromes. That should be okay don't you think?

:-)


tim

Randy  -
 
The "Kodak B&W Print" and "Gelatin Silver Print" are not equivalent.  "Gelatin Silver Print" is the description of a process, like Giclee or Fine Art Inkjet Print.  "Kodak B&W Print" is a brand of some of the products that might be used in the Gelatin Silver process, like Epson or Ultrachrome, etc.
 
I too would like a term that was accepted by the producers, purveyors, and buyers of these prints.  Unfortunately, the term "Giclee" has been used and abused by the snobbish up to this point.  One (or more) generally accepted, descriptive terms would be of great value to us.
 
Tom Baker


Randy Rancier <rrancier@...> wrote:
I know Museums like descriptive names. I like the following that I 
think are descriptive:

Digital Carbon Print
Digital Carbon on Rag (or cotton) paper
Digital Carbon Pigment Print
("Digital" being optional)
Carbon print (Piezography process)-As mentioned before
Carbon based pigment print

or any combination of the above that works.
What ever name you use I think it needs to say "Craftsmanship"; and 
not the common, "anybody do this stuff" (inkjet).

I don't like the word inkjet, because of misconceptions, and I think 
it will cheapen peoples impressions of the print; "Hey I got one of 
them at home". Not good if you are selling your work! People buying 
prints like to think they are getting something special. You don't 
see a "Weston" labeled in a Museum as "Kodak B&W Print" even though 
it is, no it says "Gelatin Silver Print".
Randy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Fink 
wrote:
> At 01:17 PM 8/3/2004, Tim Atherton wrote:
> 
> > > I put on my labels
> > >
> > > Carbon print (Piezography process)
> > >
> > > And for color prints using pigment inks
> > >
> > > Pigment print
> >
> >same problem I outlined below here - unless you clearly specify 
the inkjet
> >or piezo process (as you do in the top one)
> >
> >there are existing, long established Carbon Print and Pigment Print
> >processes (which also happen to be some of the most long lasting
> >photogrpahic process around - which is why some critics have 
whispered
> >"deception" - something I disagree with - but the label is out 
there - I
> >think it's down to lack of knowledge of photogrpahic processes in 
most
> >cases)
> 
> Would you prefer
> 
> Carbon inkjet print (Piezography process)
> 
> Pigment inkjet print
> 
> Does the word "inkjet" hurt? Many people assume that
> inkjet means fading, and poor quality. We need to
> educate, but I'm not sure that the print label is
> where to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> A r t h u r F i n k P h o t o g r a p h y
> ------------------------------------------------
> Ten New Island Avenue 207.766.5722
> Peaks Island, Maine 04108 arthur@a...




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK.  So, what do you call inkjet prints (assume fine art prints) that don't use the 'piezo' technology?
 
Tom Baker

"D. Hill" <hill14701@...> wrote:
Unfortunately, this is a thread that shows its ugly
head every couple months. Generally, we get the same
answers, and a quite a few are misleading
historically.

The title of "pigment print" is is a misnomer because
it is already used to describe a completely different
and historic process.

A "Carbon Print" is a very labor intensive and
beautiful process that very few people practice
currently. Clayton's use of "Carbon ink print" is
very accurate, as it does not use the same name for a
completely different process. While our carbon ink
prints have stunning longevity, I doubt that they will
achieve the same lifespan as that of a true carbon
print.

The best solution I have used is simply "Piezograph"
(piezo being the technology we utilize in inkjet
printing). I have previously used this description
for both color and monochrome works, as it does not
mislead or confuse by using the same terminology as
historic processes. However, it does distinguish our
process from conventional silver and alternative
process printing.

For a more specific description, I now utilize "Carbon
Piezograph" and "Pigment Piezograph" to distinguish
between color and monochrome works as well as the
nature/composition of the print as well as its
longevity.

Any thoughts/takers?

Don Hill








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bubblejets?
Mark

On Aug 3, 2004, at 4:08 PM, Tom Baker wrote:

> OK.  So, what do you call inkjet prints (assume fine art prints) that 
> don't use the 'piezo' technology?
>
> Tom Baker
>
> "D. Hill" <hill14701@...> wrote:
> Unfortunately, this is a thread that shows its ugly
> head every couple months. Generally, we get the same
> answers, and a quite a few are misleading
> historically.
>
> The title of "pigment print" is is a misnomer because
> it is already used to describe a completely different
> and historic process.
>
> A "Carbon Print" is a very labor intensive and
> beautiful process that very few people practice
> currently. Clayton's use of "Carbon ink print" is
> very accurate, as it does not use the same name for a
> completely different process. While our carbon ink
> prints have stunning longevity, I doubt that they will
> achieve the same lifespan as that of a true carbon
> print.
>
> The best solution I have used is simply "Piezograph"
> (piezo being the technology we utilize in inkjet
> printing). I have previously used this description
> for both color and monochrome works, as it does not
> mislead or confuse by using the same terminology as
> historic processes. However, it does distinguish our
> process from conventional silver and alternative
> process printing.
>
> For a more specific description, I now utilize "Carbon
> Piezograph" and "Pigment Piezograph" to distinguish
> between color and monochrome works as well as the
> nature/composition of the print as well as its
> longevity.
>
> Any thoughts/takers?
>
> Don Hill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Close enough for government work!
 
Tom Baker

Tim Atherton <timatherton@theedge.ca> wrote:
I use Ultrachrome inks and really like the Ilford Smooth Gloss.

I'm think of calling them Ilfochromes. That should be okay don't you think?

:-)


tim



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Or thermojets.
 
Tom Baker

Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
Bubblejets?
Mark

On Aug 3, 2004, at 4:08 PM, Tom Baker wrote:

> OK. So, what do you call inkjet prints (assume fine art prints) that 
> don't use the 'piezo' technology?
>
> Tom Baker
>
> "D. Hill" wrote:
> Unfortunately, this is a thread that shows its ugly
> head every couple months. Generally, we get the same
> answers, and a quite a few are misleading
> historically.
>
> The title of "pigment print" is is a misnomer because
> it is already used to describe a completely different
> and historic process.
>
> A "Carbon Print" is a very labor intensive and
> beautiful process that very few people practice
> currently. Clayton's use of "Carbon ink print" is
> very accurate, as it does not use the same name for a
> completely different process. While our carbon ink
> prints have stunning longevity, I doubt that they will
> achieve the same lifespan as that of a true carbon
> print.
>
> The best solution I have used is simply "Piezograph"
> (piezo being the technology we utilize in inkjet
> printing). I have previously used this description
> for both color and monochrome works, as it does not
> mislead or confuse by using the same terminology as
> historic processes. However, it does distinguish our
> process from conventional silver and alternative
> process printing.
>
> For a more specific description, I now utilize "Carbon
> Piezograph" and "Pigment Piezograph" to distinguish
> between color and monochrome works as well as the
> nature/composition of the print as well as its
> longevity.
>
> Any thoughts/takers?
>
> Don Hill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I call them "Argue Minor Point Prints."

Don


--- Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> wrote:

> OK.  So, what do you call inkjet prints (assume fine
> art prints) that don't use the 'piezo' technology?
>  
> Tom Baker
> 
> "D. Hill" <hill14701@...> wrote:
> Unfortunately, this is a thread that shows its ugly
> head every couple months. Generally, we get the same
> answers, and a quite a few are misleading
> historically.
> 
> The title of "pigment print" is is a misnomer
> because
> it is already used to describe a completely
> different
> and historic process.
> 
> A "Carbon Print" is a very labor intensive and
> beautiful process that very few people practice
> currently. Clayton's use of "Carbon ink print" is
> very accurate, as it does not use the same name for
> a
> completely different process. While our carbon ink
> prints have stunning longevity, I doubt that they
> will
> achieve the same lifespan as that of a true carbon
> print.
> 
> The best solution I have used is simply "Piezograph"
> (piezo being the technology we utilize in inkjet
> printing). I have previously used this description
> for both color and monochrome works, as it does not
> mislead or confuse by using the same terminology as
> historic processes. However, it does distinguish our
> process from conventional silver and alternative
> process printing.
> 
> For a more specific description, I now utilize
> "Carbon
> Piezograph" and "Pigment Piezograph" to distinguish
> between color and monochrome works as well as the
> nature/composition of the print as well as its
> longevity.
> 
> Any thoughts/takers?
> 
> Don Hill
> 
> 



		
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> The "Kodak B&W Print" and "Gelatin Silver Print" are not
> equivalent.  "Gelatin Silver Print" is the description of a
> process, like Giclee or Fine Art Inkjet Print.  "Kodak B&W Print"
> is a brand of some of the products that might be used in the
> Gelatin Silver process, like Epson or Ultrachrome, etc.

But then you have Cibachrome (Ilfochromes) - which have had that up-market
slightly snobby appeal (but then Dye Transfer prints are even snobbier than
Cibachromes...) it's really a matter of finding something descriptive,
non-deceptive, doesn't tread on too many toes but has a nice marketing ring
to it as well and implies a certain sense of quality "Silver Gelatin" - hmm
silver, precious metal etc

With the technology, papers, inks, longevity data changing every week, it's
all pretty fluid right no. I think Nash Editions in conjunction with a
number of Curators are going for the "Pigmented Print" "Pigmented Colour
Print" route - which isn't too bad, but doesn't quite roll of the tongue

tim

Hello Don,

>Clayton's use of "Carbon ink print" is very accurate, 
>as it does not use the same name for a completely 
>different process.  

>The best solution I have used is simply "Piezograph"
>(piezo being the technology we utilize in inkjet
>printing)..."Carbon Piezograph" 

> Any thoughts/takers?

You make some good points.  One of the things I'm sensitive to in a
name is the aesthetic part of it, and Piezograph seems too mechanical
or technical or something and carries no inherent meaning to someone
who knows nothing about it.  Plus it's hard for a lay person to
pronounce.  I have trouble visualizing that term in upscale gallery
with refined clientele ("We sell only the finest Silver, Piezograph
and Platinum prints").  Somehow it doesn't quite fit.  

I finally settled on Carbon Ink Print because it's accurate, doesn't
encroach on a previous name, is easy to pronounce and remember, and
has an elegance and distinction that fits better with Silver and
Platinum (plus the historical references I mentioned in the article -
I don't know if that's important to anyone else, I'm a romantic I
guess - but I think it helps).  I also believe we should capitalize on
the fact that it's an ink-based process, something people don't talk
about very much.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

> Bubblejets?

ROFL!

>
>
> You make some good points.  One of the things I'm sensitive to in a
> name is the aesthetic part of it, and Piezograph seems too mechanical
> or technical or something and carries no inherent meaning to someone
> who knows nothing about it.  Plus it's hard for a lay person to
> pronounce.  I have trouble visualizing that term in upscale gallery
> with refined clientele ("We sell only the finest Silver, Piezograph
> and Platinum prints").  Somehow it doesn't quite fit. 
>
> I finally settled on Carbon Ink Print because it's accurate, doesn't
> encroach on a previous name, is easy to pronounce and remember, and
> has an elegance and distinction that fits better with Silver and
> Platinum (plus the historical references I mentioned in the article -
> I don't know if that's important to anyone else, I'm a romantic I
> guess - but I think it helps).  I also believe we should capitalize on
> the fact that it's an ink-based process, something people don't talk
> about very much.
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
  This topic of what to call inkjet prints crops up from time to time 
with respect to color prints as well, and I don't think it's ever been 
resolved.  I think "Carbon Ink" is excellent for all the reasons 
mentioned- everybody knows what carbon is, and what ink is.  I think 
"Piezo" would throw non-printers off.  I wish there were an equally 
obvious name for color.  "Giclee" seems to have established itself in 
many places.  I don't think that "inkjet" should be rejected, however, 
because, after all, that's what they are. Why we need a euphemism, I 
don't know.

James Irelan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clayton  -
 
Maybe you're onto something here.  Perhaps it's not the method of application, but what is being applied that really could carry the connotation we would like.  But, unless you're using an ink set that is essentially 'pure' carbon, is it misleading?  The term 'pigment' is probably just as generic as carbon, but 'pigment print' doesn't seem to have the same ring as 'carbon print'.  While I don't get into the carbon print vs. the carbon print issue, I do think there is the potential of a buyer being misled.  Unless, of course you put some other qualifier in the name, which would probably have to allude to the method of application somehow.
 
In the end, however, some relatively short way to rather precisely describe the ink and substrate in terms that a buyer would know that these are long-lived, carefully made prints is probably what is needed.
 
Tom Baker

Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote:
Hello Don,

>Clayton's use of "Carbon ink print" is very accurate, 
>as it does not use the same name for a completely 
>different process. 

>The best solution I have used is simply "Piezograph"
>(piezo being the technology we utilize in inkjet
>printing)..."Carbon Piezograph" 

> Any thoughts/takers?

You make some good points. One of the things I'm sensitive to in a
name is the aesthetic part of it, and Piezograph seems too mechanical
or technical or something and carries no inherent meaning to someone
who knows nothing about it. Plus it's hard for a lay person to
pronounce. I have trouble visualizing that term in upscale gallery
with refined clientele ("We sell only the finest Silver, Piezograph
and Platinum prints"). Somehow it doesn't quite fit. 

I finally settled on Carbon Ink Print because it's accurate, doesn't
encroach on a previous name, is easy to pronounce and remember, and
has an elegance and distinction that fits better with Silver and
Platinum (plus the historical references I mentioned in the article -
I don't know if that's important to anyone else, I'm a romantic I
guess - but I think it helps). I also believe we should capitalize on
the fact that it's an ink-based process, something people don't talk
about very much.

Regards,
Clayton





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tim Atherton
<timatherton@t...> wrote:
> 
> > - Carbon Pigment Print (my choice)
> 
> The big problem with this is there are existing carbon pigment
prints (where
> that exact term and also variations of it are used) which are very
different
> from what we are talking about here 

I've never heard of Carbon Prints being referred to by any other name.
As far as I know, my prints are done with carbon pigments and that's
what I called them.

Here's a thought: carbon pigment prints (21st century process)

Cheers,
Andre

James, Tom,

>Maybe you're onto something here.  Perhaps it's not the method of
>application, but what is being applied that really could carry the
>connotation we would like.  

Nice way to say it.


>But, unless you're using an ink set that is essentially 'pure' 
>carbon, is it misleading?  The term 'pigment' is probably just 
>as generic as carbon, but 'pigment print' doesn't seem to have 
>the same ring as 'carbon print'.  

"Pigment" also would include color prints, and "inkjet" would further
include dye ink prints - just not specific enough.  We need something
elegant and distinct that clearly means "high quality black and
white". I think it's pretty safe that serious BW printers are using
carbon-based ink sets of one sort or another (whether RIP prints with
color ink dots is included is debatable of course, but that's another
subject).  "Carbon Ink Print"  just seems like it would convey "high
quality black and white" to anyone who reads it.  Doesn't seem to be
any other term that does it all as nicely as that one.


> In the end, however, some relatively short way to rather precisely
describe the ink and substrate in terms that a buyer would know that
these are long-lived, carefully made prints is probably what is
needed.

Definitely.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

On Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 12:52 PM, Tim Atherton wrote:

> I use Ultrachrome inks and really like the Ilford Smooth Gloss.
>
> I'm think of calling them Ilfochromes. That should be okay don't you 
> think?
>
> :-)
>
>
> tim
>
>

Should be fine.  I print b&w and live near Adams Ave.  I'm calling mine 
Black and White Prints by Adams.  Nice ring, no?  :  )

James


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Or:  Near Adams Quality Black and White Prints.
 
Tom Baker

James Irelan <james@...> wrote:

On Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 12:52 PM, Tim Atherton wrote:

> I use Ultrachrome inks and really like the Ilford Smooth Gloss.
>
> I'm think of calling them Ilfochromes. That should be okay don't you 
> think?
>
> :-)
>
>
> tim
>
>

Should be fine. I print b&w and live near Adams Ave. I'm calling mine 
Black and White Prints by Adams. Nice ring, no? : )

James


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Bubbliographs

-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Savoia [mailto:mark@...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 1:11 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what to call these prints - try this out...
> 
> 
> Bubblejets?
> Mark
> 
> On Aug 3, 2004, at 4:08 PM, Tom Baker wrote:
> 
> > OK.  So, what do you call inkjet prints (assume fine art 
> prints) that
> > don't use the 'piezo' technology?
> >
> > Tom Baker
> >
> > "D. Hill" <hill14701@...> wrote:
> > Unfortunately, this is a thread that shows its ugly
> > head every couple months. Generally, we get the same
> > answers, and a quite a few are misleading
> > historically.
> >
> > The title of "pigment print" is is a misnomer because
> > it is already used to describe a completely different
> > and historic process.
> >
> > A "Carbon Print" is a very labor intensive and
> > beautiful process that very few people practice
> > currently. Clayton's use of "Carbon ink print" is
> > very accurate, as it does not use the same name for a completely 
> > different process. While our carbon ink prints have stunning 
> > longevity, I doubt that they will achieve the same lifespan 
> as that of 
> > a true carbon print.
> >
> > The best solution I have used is simply "Piezograph"
> > (piezo being the technology we utilize in inkjet
> > printing). I have previously used this description
> > for both color and monochrome works, as it does not
> > mislead or confuse by using the same terminology as
> > historic processes. However, it does distinguish our
> > process from conventional silver and alternative
> > process printing.
> >
> > For a more specific description, I now utilize "Carbon 
> Piezograph" and 
> > "Pigment Piezograph" to distinguish between color and 
> monochrome works 
> > as well as the nature/composition of the print as well as its
> > longevity.
> >
> > Any thoughts/takers?
> >
> > Don Hill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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I call them photographs or digital archival photographs.

Tom Baker wrote:


> I too would like a term that was accepted by the producers, purveyors, and buyers of these prints.  Unfortunately, the term "Giclee" has been used and abused by the snobbish up to this point.  One (or more) generally accepted, descriptive terms would be of great value to us.

There are good reasons to avoid the term "Giclee" not only for 
its connotations but also because the prints have a reputation 
for being extremely vulnerable among conservators. To show them 
the difference with modern inkjet pigments I once held a print I 
made under the tap and put it on the radiator to dry. They still 
were astonished when they called next day that the print looked 
good despite the treatment.

Carbon Ink print, Pigment Ink print are close enough to me. 
Carbon Digital or Pigment Digital is another option. I use 
Piezografie in Dutch for the B&W ones. I've seen someone coin 
that term in English on one of these lists before it became a 
brand name shortly after.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Don,
> 
> >Clayton's use of "Carbon ink print" is very accurate, 
> >as it does not use the same name for a completely 
> >different process.  
> 
> >The best solution I have used is simply "Piezograph"

You can't use that because Piezography is a commercial, trademarked 
name and Piezograph is just too close, especially since you're using 
it to mean the same thing.

The bottom line is that these are inkjet prints.  Unless we ALL 
agree on some alternative name no one will know what we're talking 
about with our cutesy little homemade names.  

"Carbon pigment print" or the like sounds too "scientific" for a 
target audience of museum curators, gallery owners, and art 
collectors.   They'll all go, "carbon . . .  that's, like, a 
chemical, isn't it?"  Then they'll blame you for global warming or 
something.

I recently had a gallery show that involved my Epson 2200 prints.  
The ones that were pure inkjey I called "giclee" at the curator's 
request, but I insisted on using a lower-case 'g'  and the ones that 
were combined with pastels I called "mixed media".

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> You can't use that because Piezography is a commercial, trademarked 
> name 
> 
> "Carbon pigment print" or the like sounds too "scientific" 


A wise person once said: "The print is nothing. The image is everything."

Somehow that doesnt seem to apply to digital prints.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Nelson [mailto:pnweb@...] 
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 6:55 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what to call these prints - try this out...
> "Carbon pigment print" or the like sounds too "scientific" 
> for a target audience of museum curators, gallery owners, and art 
> collectors.   They'll all go, "carbon . . .  that's, like, a 
> chemical, isn't it?"  Then they'll blame you for global 
> warming or something.

	I've got it: EcoPrint.  No harmful silver, selenium, pesticides etc.
Printed on 100% cotton rag natural paper with no additives, to speak of,
grown far from any known rain forest. 

> 
> I recently had a gallery show that involved my Epson 2200 prints.  
> The ones that were pure inkjey I called "giclee" at the 
> curator's request

	Any strange looks from French-speaking males?

>, but I insisted on using a lower-case 'g'  
> and the ones that were combined with pastels I called "mixed media".

	Peter, do you have a web site with the mixed media prints?  I have
seen some like that from (I'm going to butcher her name since it's from
memory) Teresa Airy.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

> > I recently had a gallery show that involved my Epson 2200 prints.  
> > The ones that were pure inkjey I called "giclee" at the 
> > curator's request
> 
> 	Any strange looks from French-speaking males?

The word is mainly known in english speaking circles.

> > I recently had a gallery show that involved my Epson 2200 prints.  
> > The ones that were pure inkjey I called "giclee" at the 
> > curator's request
> 
> 	Any strange looks from French-speaking males?

The word is mainly known in english speaking circles.

On 8/13/04 5:25 PM, "Andre" <am1000@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> A wise person once said: "The print is nothing. The image is everything."
> 
> Somehow that doesnt seem to apply to digital prints.
> 
> 
> 
Yes, it does apply.  This same sort of obsessive discussion about
photographic terminology and technique has been going on a long, long, time.
It is much easier to pursue (and discuss) terminology and photographic
technical minutia than actually make a ³wonderful² image by whatever means.
J Vee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]